← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
What If College Basketball Had a Player Loan System?
00:55:46
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- [00:00]
Ben Pickman
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Zena Kada
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I'm not.
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Of course he did.
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- [02:54]
Zena Kada
Hello, everyone, and welcome to no off season. I'm Zena Kada.
- [02:58]
Sabrina Merchant
I'm Sabrina Merchant.
- [02:59]
Ben Pickman
And I'm Ben Pickman.
- [03:01]
Zena Kada
And today on the show, in the ncaa, you can't make midseason trades the same way you can make in the pros. But what if a school could loan a player for a season? Who would we want to move to create another contender? Which players are trapped on teams set to miss out on the NCAA tournament? It's going to be our college basketball version of a trade machine. But first, it's time for Deal or no Deal. And as of now, still no deal in place. However, there's been some new developments that have been brought to the table. So, Ben, catch us up. What's going on with Deal or no Deal?
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Ben Pickman
Yeah, we normally do this segment on Thursdays. If people who listen to the show might be like, why is this happening on Tuesday's show? And the answer is because on Monday we reported a little bit more about some of the proposal details that have been exchanged back and forth between the sides since the last extension. And so what we reported on, I guess, Monday morning was that still the players and the league remain far apart in labor negotiations. But as it relates to the salary systems and the salary proposals specifically, the players are asking for more than double the share of league and team revenue than what is being proposed by the league. And not only are they asking for that higher, you know, that higher percentage of a share, but they are proposing very different systems, though both are based on league revenue. Right. And so in the union's proposal, the salary cap of what then players are paid would be determined by taking the player's share of the prior season's total revenue, subtracting the cost of various player benefits, such as medical insurance costs, local transportation costs, and housing, and dividing that number by the number of teams. So very much looks back at the prior season and then that helps to inform what the cap is going forward. Players would receive 29 of the prior season's gross revenue with a one time in the first season of this deal, with a one time adjustment being made to reflect the new media rights deal that's going to be worth $2.2 billion that is going into effect next season. In each subsequent season, the player's share of total league and team revenue would increase by 1%. Right. So it goes from 29%, say in 2026, 30% in 2027, 31% in 2028. We get the idea with players earning 34% of the prior season's gross revenue in the final year of the proposed cba. So a very different model than what the league is proposing as we, Sabrina and I both reported, I guess 10 days ago. Now, under the WNBA's latest salary system proposal, players are still receiving less than 15% of total league and team revenue. So different numbers and again different percentages as well.
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Zena Kada
It seems that even in all these conversations around what the WNBA players would get in terms of their portions based off this shareable metric, we still don't quite know what goes into that. And you mentioned that in your piece, Ben. I'm curious, Sabrina, like, has that been a portion of the conversation making this more transparent for not only players to know, but for the league and its fans to know?
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Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, I mean, I think fans wanting to know the totals of revenue is probably a bridge too far for now. But transparency within the league and its union is definitely something that's at play. That's something that the players want and just a better understanding of what money is coming into the league, what money can then go to salaries and things of that nature. It should be noted that the players proposal that Ben reported on on Monday is attempting to share all league revenue. So there wouldn't necessarily need to be transparency into what goes into what bucket because all of it would be shared. And then as you mentioned, you take off some of the top of expenses like travel and housing and whatnot. The league's proposal was that they would consolidate a certain bucket of the revenue. Right. So whether that includes all of team revenue or all of league revenue and whether tickets, jerseys, media, what goes into that is still unclear. But their big selling point is that it would be 50% of that metric. And 50% is obviously the big number here because you look at the NBA, for example, and their BRI split is 50. So they're saying that it would be 50% of that revenue metric. The thing is, it's unclear what actually goes into that metric. Right. We don't know if it includes everything that the league brings in. And it's also sort of an excess revenue calculation. There's still a cost of revenue that gets taken off of the top. And another transparency question. Unclear what that cost of revenue figure would be. Right. We know in the current CBA there's a 30% cost of revenue that's taken off of their excess revenue marker. Unclear whether that would be a higher number, a lower number, more prohibitive. But I think you're basic point about transparency is really the main thing here because the players seem to be trying to simplify this as much as possible. Right. Like, let's just put all of the revenue in one bucket. We're not asking for 50%. We are asking for a significantly bigger number than what is currently being achieved in the current financial model. But let's just put everything all together and we can split it from there. Whereas the league's proposal still requires a delineation of what constitutes shareable revenue and what constitutes revenue that just goes directly to the owners.
- [08:05]
Ben Pickman
And we should say too, that as it relates to the metrics, from what I understand, it is unclear to us. Like, it is unclear to me. It is unclear to Sabrina. I don't believe that it is unclear to the players union what goes into that charitable metric. Right. So there's a distinction there. It's not like the league is not telling them what is in that bucket. Now, the union might have some issues, and I have to imagine they do have some issues as to what is actually being shared. Like what revenue is then going to be distributed. Right. And in which ways. They have some issues about what is being included in those buckets and how those buckets are made up. But it's not a matter of like, they're totally in the dark about what is being shared or what is not. The other thing to also consider about the differences in these proposals is, as it currently stands, the union's proposal does not include concrete figures for players maximum salaries. Right. Both sides have been open throughout this entire process about acknowledging that they want salaries to significantly increase. Right. The maximum salary right now is around $250,000 in the league. I think the expectation, no matter which proposal and which system gets agree to in the end, is that the maximum salary is going to be more than seven figures. Right. But in the union's proposal, they do not have concrete figures because they are waiting to Figure out, you know, what the system looks like before actually kind of creating some of those. Those markers, I guess, or maybe adjusting some of those markers as to, like, what are the different tiers of that players might get paid. Whereas we currently know a little bit more about what the WNBA is proposing. Right. It would result in average salary projections to be at least around 500,000, at least in compensation, and a project 1.2 million of total compensation for max players in the first year of the agreement. So we have a little bit more there. But that's another difference right now as it relates to the money.
- [09:51]
Zena Kada
I mean, that's negotiation one on one. Do not box yourself into a number before you really know what's possible in terms of the full table to get access to. In terms of. I know we know salary is the number one thing and the revenue share is the number one thing. That's pretty much the focal point of these conversations. And for the folks that are outside of the conversation, it's the focal point for us too. But there were a lot of interesting particular elements that also were a part of this proposal, like the wearable technology, asking players or mandating that players wear wearable technology. We know that they do that during practice to track performance, but also having them be mandated to wear it during games, and then the union coming back and saying, you know what, we can ramp up to wearing it during games. There was also, of course, we've talked a little bit about the retirement benefits for players, an aspect of the salary exceptions of, you know, basically rewarding folks that were really high performers or looking at just the rookie scale contracts and wanting to shift that. Out of everything that you found out about this most recent proposal, Ben, what were some of the things that stood out to you the most as being interesting that this was, you know, these were points that were being negotiated on.
- [11:01]
Ben Pickman
I mean, wearable tech is something that I think we haven't thought a lot about throughout this process. It was interesting to learn about. So that is an example. That is something like Kinexon, which is a product that. Or a technology that a lot of players wear around the league and practices. You know, it will monitor things like your heart rate or, you know, your, I guess your. They'll do something called force place force plate testing, which will evaluate again, your explosiveness, your quickness, things like that. You know, you're potentially. You're sleeping. Like, think about some of the Oura ring, the things that it's recorded in like an aura ring. There's a lot of technologies like that and the pa, as you mentioned, Zeno is proposing a ramp up also we should say like they're proposing a ramp up in the salary system. Right. They had initially proposed wanting a 33% share of total league and team revenue and now in their latest proposal, after that was rejected from the league, it's this. 29, 30, 31, 32, a ramp up over the course of the agreement. Another thing that I think we should highlight though, and you know, we've started to see this actually in unrivaled this very winter is roster sizes and developmental spots. So the WNBPA is proposing that teams be allowed to sign up to two additional developmental players who sign or would receive rather a stipend and could appear in up to 10 games per season at a pro rated minimum league salary. Before then they would have to sign a rest of season contract. Developmental players would also sign, receive full benefits. Right, like any other player on the team. But again they would only be allowed to play in a certain number of games or be active for a certain number of games before they would be bumped up. That's something new and that is something obviously like has been talked about a lot over the last couple years. As we've seen injuries, we've seen teams, you know, have to deal with a lot of hardship, players having to sign players who, you know, don't practice with their teams necessarily and then they get moved to another team or they're out of the league and then suddenly you sign a quick contract and you have to get thrown on the court. Like this is a way to potentially alleviate that and have more players in your building a part of your system, a part of your culture, learn and you know, kind of like a little bit of a two way system, right? Like the NBA has. Of course there isn't a G league where you're sending those players back to, but they're still able to practice, work out with the team and then get some potential on court opportunities in games as well.
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Zena Kada
That's exactly what I thought of, is just like you're creating your own in house G league with the two A players. And having that developmental player receive a salary is so important as well. Okay, so this is the latest that we have on the CBA negotiations. Of course, November 30th was when they extended it. The second deadline extension happened. Now the new one is January 9th. Of course, Ben Sabrina will keep you updated with everything. But still, as of now, no deal. Let's shift it on over to a lot of great stuff coming out of the South Particularly in Durham and North Carolina on Duke's campus, Team USA took to the court to start their camp in preparation for the next World Cup. Sabrina, you were there. We've been seeing all the little snippets really cool, like footage of players out on the court. Caitlin Clark back on the court, Angel Reese with the no look passes. I mean, it's just been really fun to see a snippet of what's been going on. Really great pieces out about their performances and just things that players are saying about the opportunity to be a part of this roster. So what'd you see? Catch us up on everything that's going on.
- [14:21]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. So just to set the stage, this is the first camp for Carol Lawson's tenure as the national team head coach. She was appointed earlier this season and she'll be the coach through the Olympic cycle. So that means the World cup and the Olympics in Los Angeles in 2028. The World cup is coming in just about nine months, so no time like the present to get going. Right. And you know, the camp was a little interesting because a lot of the players who would expect to be shoe ins, for lack of a better word on the World cup team should they choose to participate in USA Basketball like Asia Wilson, Brianna Stewart and Ifsa Collier were not in attendance. Which gave a lot of the youngins a chance to, you know, attend a senior camp for the first time and really make their case for why they belong as part of the future of USA Basketball. There were 10 first time attendees as part of the 17 people at camp. So a big, big chunk of this is not to say inexperienced because most of these players have been part of the youth levels of USA Basketball before. You know, in fact, Cameron Brink, Aaliyah Boston, Caitlin Clark and Paige Beckers were all on one U19 team together back in 2019. So there's definitely familiarity in that respect and a lot of them have even played for Carol Lawson before at youth camps and 3x3. But as far as the senior team goes, 10 first time attendees and it was really fun just to see what it looks like when Caitlin Clark is on the same team as Paige Becker is or when Sonya Citroen isn't thrown passes to Kiki Iriafan, but rather to Bree Jones or Tierrica Hamby and just a lot of high level talent, a lot of competitiveness and CBA is sort of like this cloud that hangs over everything. Right. These are all WNBA, I should say 15 of the players are WNBA players and the other two who are still in college are Expecting to join the WNBA fairly soon. So this CBA affects all of them, if not immediately, then in their very near future. And we wrote about that on the site. Just like how people have been perceiving the negotiations and what still affects them and what they're thinking about with regards to the new collective bargaining agreement. But for now, just good time at camp. Three days in North Carolina, a little snow on one of the days. You know, just a little taste of the winter in the South. But it was interesting just to see what Carol Lawson is prioritizing in terms of how she wants to make her imprint on this program. And just fun to, like, see the players in a live game situation again. Because you think about, like, Caitlin hasn't played since July 15th. You know, there are four Sparks of this camp. Their season ended on September 11th. Right. So it's been a long time since any of them have really played competitive basketball. You know, you still have some situations where, like, Caitlin's stuck guarding Kelsey and Kelsey's knocking her off the ball. And Caitlin gets called for a foul and she starts yelling at the refs. She's grabbing me. And all of the coaches from WNBA teams who are sitting there watching are just cracking up. Kelsey had one situation where she sort of finished through traffic. She'd been struggling a little bit, got through to the hoop. Just yells right in Becky Hammond and Nikki Fargas face, and they're just cracking up. Classic Kelsey.
- [17:01]
Zena Kada
Right, right, right, right. Stirring it up. I love that. I love that you could see the storylines continue from the W season into this camp. But I want to particularly hit on two things that you wrote about just Caitlin Clark being back on the court. You also got a quote out of Sue Bird about her being impressed with Caitlyn just being engaged while she was out and getting back to being able to play a little bit about what Caitlin looked like on the court, how much fun she was having, how important it was, and then someone else, Angel Reese on the other side talking about Chicago. That was the article I was not expecting.
- [17:37]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. So we'll start with Caitlin. Obviously, she suffered a lot of just a bevy of injuries in her sophomore season. Played her last game on July 15, even before all Star Weekend. This was her first real 5 on 5 action since that injury with the fever. And it was a combination of like USA players going against USA players and then also USA players going against the scout team, which was just like players from small colleges all across North Carolina sort of helping out with that scout team practice. And, you know, she looked like Caitlin, right? Like the step back three was there, the passes were there when she was not playing with Aaliyah Boston, some of the bigs didn't know what to do with her passes. Like there was one time where she passed it to Hamby and Hamby like brought the ball down. It's like you can't do that. Like this is not. You have to keep it up, right? Just like not expecting, you know where that was coming. But Feva naturally just a lot more physical than other levels of basketball. Even more physical than the wnba, which is something to be said considering all the conversations we had about that level of physicality during this 2025 season. So having to see Caitlin go at scouting players who were instructed to play at a feeble level of physicality was interesting considering how long she's been out and the fact that she's still ramping up injury wise. But she looked good. She was just so happy to be there and individually telling media members how nice it was. Just talk to them again that she was just part of the basketball process, even if that includes all these other responsibilities. And then as you mentioned angel, even though it is USA Basketball, everybody gets asked about all sorts of things just related to wnba college, all sorts of things. And she was just straight up asked, do you plan on returning to Chicago next season? And she said, I mean I'm under contract so yeah, I'll be there next year. And it wasn't exactly the most assertive declaration that she is enjoying the experience in Chicago, that she's happy to be coming back, but it doesn't seem like she's going to be demanding a trade anytime soon. Just something to note. Also something to note. I'm sure a lot of people saw the pictures of angel and Paige together at New York Knicks game with their new Reese's Pieces collaboration. That love fest absolutely continued to USA Basketball. They had a great time with one another. Kurt Miller, Dallas GM there, I don't know if he's considering making any moves for Angel Reese, but got a lot of FaceTime of what angel could look like with Paige. If that's something that anyone is considering.
- [19:52]
Zena Kada
Listen, a lot of fans were considering that. I think that was like one of the number one destinations for angel when the whole situation was going on in Chicago. But it is, it was really cool just to be able to see some of the snippets of even how some of these players are already developing from what they were doing in the WNBA and you know, in this off season. And we shall see. I mean if those fits find their way to Dallas, I will not be upset. Angel's been on a catwalk on sidelines lately, including that Oreo jacket that she was rocking with Paige. But okay, last but not least, young and turnt performances. I need the insight.
- [20:29]
Sabrina Merchant
Ben is a little bit younger. You want to take this one?
- [20:31]
Ben Pickman
I mean, that is what Paige Becker's dubbed. The group of players that have kind of come in are coming into Team USA for this last camp. I mean, I think as Sabrina touched on and as she wrote about as well, there's part of this generational shift that is going on with USA Basketball that was very much on display at this camp. Right. There were a lot more players who were invited to the camp who did not attend for whatever reason. And some of those players, the Asia Wilsons, the Stewies, Nafisa Colliers, you can certainly expect them to be a part of the LA Olympics and we'll see about the World cup next fall. But no matter who is a part of the senior national team rosters, in the end or not, I think the camp certainly represented a starting, you know, the beginning of a shift in who is making up the Team USA USA Basketball player body. Right. We've talked about Caitlin Clark, Angel Reese, Paige Beckers. You had Cam Brink there, you had Lauren Betts there, who is in college and still participating at this camp. Rekia Jackson was present, Sonja Citron, Kiki Iriafen, like a lot of young players in the WNBA were present. We should also say, and I think this is important to hit on Juju Watkins, the, you know, USC star who is not playing, was present at a camp on Friday, at least before she seemingly flew back home to watch UConn play USC on Saturday. Juju Also, as a result, spoke to media for the first time in a while. Seemingly she had just been an observer. She updated people on her progress, basically saying that she's finally starting to work out again, that she's just getting a basketball back in her hands, participating in some light shooting, some like ball handling again, just like part of this process. She's been ruled out for the season and there's no reason to suspect that is going to change. And she talked about just being there for her was a pinch me moment that she had dreamed of being in that atmosphere. And so even as a non player, even to just be there for, you know, 24, 48 hours, that was important for her. It also seemed important to Sue Bird and Carol Lawson to get to know her more, to have conversations, to feel her energy for Juju to see the energy of the camp. So again, when you look forward to the, you know, the young and turned generation, like, they're coming next, they're coming quickly, and they were on certainly full display in Durham.
- [22:44]
Zena Kada
Listen, guys, I'm going to find a way to get Ben to keep saying young and turned for the rest of this season.
- [22:50]
Ben Pickman
I think you should get Sabrina to say it. She's more like, for me, like, you know, I want to know if Sabrina's like, part of the young and turned generation.
- [22:57]
Zena Kada
I'm dying. Yeah. We are clearly above the age bracket of folks that just casually say young internt.
- [23:03]
Sabrina Merchant
I will say one of the funnier things about that is when Paige said it for the first time, a couple people thought that she was saying that they were the young interns.
- [23:11]
Zena Kada
Oh, Lord. That is. That's on brand. That's on brand. Yes. We need to. I was.
- [23:19]
Ben Pickman
That's what we can think of that class.
- [23:21]
Zena Kada
Like, we gotta go better. We gotta do better, guys. Not the young interns. No, the young interns. That's hilarious. Thank you for sharing that. Okay, guys, we gotta keep it moving. On the other side of this break, we're gonna ask a little bit of what ifs when it comes to women's college basketball. And who could get some help from someone else?
- [23:43]
Ben Pickman
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Sabrina Merchant
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Of course he did.
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- [25:49]
Ben Pickman
Start speaking with Babbel today. Get up to 55% off your Babbel subscription right now at babbel.com acast spelled B A B-B-E-L.com acast rules and restrictions may apply.
- [26:12]
Zena Kada
Alrighty. Got an interesting exercise here that I am grateful to. I believe it's Sabrina that you came up with this idea of what would happen if we could have trades in college. So if you've listened to this show and or you've listened to the NBA daily, we know that there is a point in the league schedules, the wnba, the NBA where we fire up the trade machine, we make up fake trades that we'd want to see for whatever reason. Could help a team, could help a player, could help someone get into contention, could help someone just have better vibes, who knows. But ultimately a move could be made to change this trajectory of a team. I mean we literally saw this happen with the Aces in the wnba. No one could have expected what happened. I mean what would have happened with trading Melissa Smith from the Dallas Wings to the Aces and her being one of the best bigs to come off the bench and be able to contribute, especially as they rolled into their championship. So I'm wondering, guys, one, if you could break down what we could do from the college perspective. Because I think I have one as an example, but I just want to make sure I'm doing it right.
- [27:18]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, so this was sort of born from when we were talking about South Carolina a little bit earlier. And it was, well, this is the roster they have. You can't make trades during the college season.
- [27:26]
Ben Pickman
Right?
- [27:27]
Sabrina Merchant
Like they have seven players maybe that they trust. And this is what, you know, they're going to be relying on over the course of the regular season because there is no in season movement. Right. Like, you know, you can have off season stuff with the portal and obviously people come in through juco and from high school, but we just sort of thinking about it, as Ben sort of dubbed it, like a study abroad. Right. Like if one player could just go to another school for a semester, for a season. You know, if they're on a team that isn't really going anywhere this year, let's not waste this entire year for them. Let's let them contribute their talents to a program that really needs something specific. And we're sort of just thinking about like a loan system like they have in European soccer where a player on a non contending team gets either or maybe even a contending team that's not really playing gets loaned out so they can get minutes somewhere else. Or we're sort of thinking as the opposite where like they get lent to a team that really needs them for this particular year so that they can attend. So our exercise here is really there are a lot of teams in the top 25 or adjacent that are very good, obviously, but they have specific holes and we're trying to fill those needs with somebody that maybe doesn't need them right now.
- [28:31]
Zena Kada
Okay, I like this. I like this. Okay, so thinking of this, I immediately went to a school that preseason I was very high on and I think all of us were very high on. And then the actual product has just been subpar. I mean, I don't know if anyone's dropped out of the top 25 faster than this team. And that's why I went with Duke. I looked at Duke and I said, cara, you need some help, baby. You need some help. You need something to boost this team around on several factors. And that's how I decided to choose the person that I wanted to bring in. When you look at what Duke is dealing with so far this season, they are 200th in their two point percentage. Okay. They're not really great in three point percentage. They're even further. They're. They're 135th, so that's not too bad. But easy buckets inside the arc. They are doing pretty badly in terms of being able to finish mid range, around the basket, et cetera. They also aren't the best rebounding team. Um, they let their opponents rebound so much better than them, and they're just not cleaning up the glass for themselves. They turn the ball over really badly. And so I was like, all right, Duke, you need someone that can finish pretty well around the basket, pretty high field goal percentage from two point percentage. You need someone that can rebound for you, and you need someone that's not averaging more than two turnovers a game. That's. That's very important. And when I did all of that, Sabrina, you actually kind of planted the idea in my mind. And I saw this person against Oklahoma and I said, hmm, this could be a thing. Achol Akat from Oklahoma State. That to me is who Duke could have, alongside of Toby Fournier, to come in, be able to grab some rebounds, be able to score, because that's another thing. Duke cannot score really well right now. And Achal's doing pretty well. Like her numbers right now, eleven and a half points per game, averaging seven rebounds per game. And she's also assisting. And the one thing that Duke can do well is assist. They're in the top 100 from that category. And I was like, all right, cool. This is awesome. But particularly, she's effective from the field. 72% effective field goal percentage.
- [30:44]
Sabrina Merchant
And she's actually leading division one in two point field goal percentage.
- [30:47]
Zena Kada
I was gonna get there. I was gonna get there. I was gonna get there. I was trying to build up to it, Sabrina, but yes, there you go. She's leading the entire NCAA in two point field goal percentage. She moves really well, which I think is important too, to fit within the scheme of what Duke offensively and defensively. And so that being said, I think a Troll of Caught would be a really nice loan from Oklahoma State to Duke. Thoughts on that one?
- [31:13]
Ben Pickman
I thought you were first gonna say, Zena, that they should loan someone from Team USA to play for Duke. That really, that was Carol Austin's point of having camp there.
- [31:21]
Zena Kada
She's a scout right now.
- [31:23]
Ben Pickman
Forget Oklahoma State. She was looking at like Kalia Copper and Paige Beckers and, you know, Kiki area Fenk. Can you come in as much as, you know, loan them from unrivaled, not another college.
- [31:33]
Sabrina Merchant
So no, I like the idea of some front court, just high efficiency scoring because that's definitely something that Duke is always looking for.
- [31:41]
Zena Kada
Yeah. Okay. Well, that was my example. I think we're starting off strong from that. But I want to see what you guys have to say. Who are your players that you want to transfer or loan for a semester maybe, or maybe just for the season to see if they can help some teams out. Sabrina, I'm gonna start with you.
- [31:57]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. So, you know, I'm watching the games this weekend, and obviously we talked about UConn playing USC, and every time I watch anybody play UConn, it's just impressive how hard it is to get a good shot against them. Right. Like, you can Only succeed against UConn if you can create good shots every time a round. And that's setting aside the fact of even making good shots. But USC clearly doesn't have the ability to do that because they only have a couple players who can create their own shot. And even the ones who are around them aren't exactly high efficiency scores. So does that. What I was looking for is just a player who can score easily, who gives, you know, the offense like a focal point, something to turn to when Jazzy's struggling or, you know, when Kennedy Smith's struggling. Like, all of the initiation coming from the wings is just not an ideal way of running the offense. So I was looking at Gracie Merkel from Penn State scoring about 21 points per game this season. Actually tied with Acholakot with the lead in two point percentage in Division one. Just a really high level score. Penn State not like the most successful team this season. It's going to be very deep Big Ten, and they're already like 6 and 4 for the season, so not a team that you'd necessarily expect to be a tournament team, only a junior. We can get her back to the E Lions next year. That'll be fine. But I think just having somebody on USC where their front court has just been this huge mishmash of like they're trying to bring in any player who works that particular day. You know, they've been just going back and forth. We mentioned this last week between all four of their options. If you get Gracie in there, there's a hub where you can count on her to score in every possession. It opens things up for Jazzy and Kennedy. She can even kick out to shooters, make things a little bit easier for the likes of London Jones or Cara Dunn. So I like the idea of having somebody who just, you can give the ball to her on any possession, know that she's gonna create a high Efficiency shot and it's a point of real need for where the Jordans are this year.
- [33:40]
Ben Pickman
This is a great call, Sabrina, because I like that we're on the same wavelength. We didn't talk about this pre show. Gracie Merkel also on my list among the players that I would loan out. And I think it's because again, like as you said, Penn State is 6 and 4 this year. They're seemingly not going to be an NCAA tournament team. I think the USC fit makes a lot of sense as you're saying. I also think one school that should be really interesting in Michigan, right? They're a school we've talked a lot about in terms of lacking the same kind of high quality front court depth that some other of the top powers around the country have, right? And so if you plug in a center like Merkel, who, you know, you rattled off some of the statistics, you rattled off her size six four. So interesting. She's taking just one shot out of the paint all season long, right? Think about Audi Crooks, her shot chart. Gracie Merkel's is even more extreme. Like literally only one shot out of the paint all year long and she's shooting again more than 74%. You know, this season she's led her conference and field goal percentage in each of her first three college years. You put her at a usc, I think you're totally right that she becomes a fulcrum of that offense. You put her at Michigan, right? Think about the sophomore guards that they have, the Olson's, the Swords, the Holloways, right? Like she becomes another high quality option that I think would make their offense really, really interesting. So she, I think is kind of the, the perfect player in this exercise to kind of loan out and see where can she go, who can she make better? Because Penn State, she certainly makes them a lot better. And I think she'd make people, you know, other schools a lot better too, also has shown improvement year over year. And I think that is a good sign about, you know, again, her growth and her ability to adapt to different situations.
- [35:16]
Zena Kada
They've actually got her listed as 6 6. That's interesting. I wonder if that's like ponytail height or sneaker height or what's going on there. But yes. Okay. Gracie Merkel making already an impact. Penn State, get ready to lose your big inside. It feels like both Sabrina and Ben coming after her. All right, keep it going. Let's see if you guys can go opposite directions with your next schools. Ben, this time I'm gonna let you go first.
- [35:45]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean Another caveat that I tried to put in this exercise was I tried to not look at mid major players. Right. I didn't want to just take from the richest mid majors and just say Maggie Dugan of Richmond who is, you know, one of the best mid major players in America, or Brooklyn Meyer of South Dakota State who's gotten off to, you know, we've talked about her on the show before, just some of the crazy numbers that she's put on because players like that, they would obviously help a lot of teams at the high major level and I don't want to just pick from those and plop them into different situations. One really interesting name that I floated out there and we'll see actually how good this team is currently. I think they're only a one or two loss team coming from Indiana, so I'm sticking in the conference. You know, Shay Chesky, another guard. Like again, we will see what Indiana is compared to their Big Ten foes currently. Like they're not in the AP top 25. So I put them in this exercise. It's like I don't even think. Have they received a vote all season. Sabrina, like, not that I'm aware of. Not really sure. Right. So we'll say that's why we included her. But she's an Indiana senior guard who has really seen her game elevate this season Compared to past years. She'd been averaging just around 11 points per game in her first three seasons. She's averaging around 25 points per game this year. She went from shooting around 45, 46% past years to 55.6% this year. She's shooting 45.3% from 3, 93% from, from the line. If you think about again, one of these dynamic scorers, like again, I mapped her to USC for the same reasons you did. Again, another kind of proven ball handler who can be dynamic on the offensive end. But I think she'd be really interesting in a lot of places. North Carolina, for instance. Right. A player who can create easy baskets. I think she'd be really interesting at Ole Miss. Yeah, I understand she's a little bit more of a high usage card right now. But Ole Miss is a team that we have in the top 20 that I think can be really, really good. But from three point shooting, like they lack high quality three point shooting right now. So if you put someone like that in, you know, what does that do to their offense? A player who can both get downhill score in transition and also shoot it. So she was one other name Again, coming out of the Big Ten conference that I had circled. And I don't know, what do you guys think of that call?
- [37:55]
Sabrina Merchant
She was my other player, too.
- [37:56]
Ben Pickman
And where did you have her going?
- [37:57]
Sabrina Merchant
I didn't like her as much at USC because they already rely on two guards who are so small in London Jones and Malia Samuels. And not being able to play her next to them because she's five' seven. I didn't love that fit, which is why I went bigger at usc. I was thinking Iowa, actually, because you look at that game between Iowa and Iowa State, and I wouldn't exactly call Iowa State the most defensive juggernaut of the teams that we're going to be seeing down the stretch as we head into tournament time. But it was still very hard for Iowa to generate shots in the half court that weren't three pointers. They got up a good volume of threes like Taylor McCabe, Kylie Furbach, they can get up triples. But other than chit chat, right, like, nobody was doing anything off the dribble. And I think Shai Chesky is just very good at creating off the dribble in a way that Iowa could really use, especially in situations where, like, Ava Haydn was basically taken out of the game because of foul trouble. So I liked that fit. Iowa's defense has been shockingly good this year. You know, you think about Iowa, you think about Caitlin and just like the offensive powerhouse, and they haven't been that team this year. They need actually a little bit more shot creation. And that's why I really liked the Chesky fit there, especially because, like, moving people within conference I think is always easier because they kind of know all the opponents already. And it's not as big of a deal to learn an entirely new scouting report, even if you are learning the systems in your new school.
- [39:09]
Zena Kada
Now, I ain't gonna lie to you guys, and I'm gonna go ahead and play devil's advocate for some of those that are listening. I thought the exercise was to give somebody on loan that the team wouldn't need. Shay Chesky is Indiana's number one scorer.
- [39:21]
Sabrina Merchant
Like, I mean, Gracie Merkel, Penn State's number one score. But, like, Penn State's not going anywhere. That was the point.
- [39:26]
Zena Kada
Okay, okay. Okay, okay, okay. All right. Which I think is why Ben avoided.
- [39:30]
Sabrina Merchant
The mid major stars. Because, like, yeah, maybe, you know, Richmond's not going to get to the second weekend of the tournament, but they are in position to win An Atlantic 10 title this year. An Atlantic 10 tournament title. And if you can like hang a banner. I wouldn't want to take away a player from that team. Right. But Indiana, yeah, they're 10 and 2, but you know, they haven't really beaten anyone of consequence, unclear how they're going to fare in the Big Ten. And so that's, that's sort of where that impetus came from.
- [39:51]
Ben Pickman
You know, I think another player that I think we would have both included in this exercise or would have been at the top of the list in this exercise a year ago is Sarah Williams. And she's a really interesting name when you think about her new context. Right? Because you think about Wisconsin over the past, I guess, decade plus. I mean they are one of, if not the worst programs in the Big Ten. I don't think they've made the NCAA tournament in I want to say like 15 plus years. Sarah Williams was dominating at Wisconsin. She was the fulcrum of everything they did. She's two time all Big Ten. She's a four time all defensive team member in the Big Ten. She transferred, I guess, I guess it would be three time, right? She's only played there three years. She transfers this past year to Connecticut. Like they have a ton of talent, but we've seen her role really shrink. But she would certainly have been the kind of player a year ago averaging 19 points, averaging 10 rebounds who could have helped a lot of teams, right? Think about the transfer portal loan system rather in soccer. Like I bet there were a lot of teams mid season last year who would have said we would have loved to have Sarah Williams on our team. And we know that to be the case because then when she hits the transfer portal after the season, she's getting looks from UConn. She's going down to LSU, right? Some of the biggest schools in the country, they're targeting a player like that. And that I think is one of the things like as we think forward a little bit. Like those are some of the players that I'm trying to keep an eye out on. Other players who could be moving, you know, might be at the high major level right now, but again, whose teams might not be going to the tournament or winning a national championship. That is why I think we both started with, with Merkel in that case.
- [41:25]
Sabrina Merchant
I mean, speaking of Sarah Williams, Janelle Alf was one of the names on my list because I don't think UConn really needs her right now because of all of the players they brought in to play in front of her. Right. Sarah Williams is starting in the front court ahead of her. You've got, you know, Quinones, who's very exciting and probably will be taking a lot more of a lafi minute as the year goes on. And yet I look at Jana, and she was starting for a team that won the national title last year, and she defended Lauren Betts about as well as anybody I've seen all season. So if you could put her on a team that needs a little bit of an interior presence, like a Washington, you know, to complement what they have with their guards, the Avery Howell, Ella Dean, Savius Sellers little trio there, I think that could be very interesting. And she can definitely take on a larger role than she is right now where she's getting less than 10 minutes per game at UConn. So, yeah, maybe not a team that, like, isn't going anywhere, but a team that isn't exactly using Jana Alefi to get where they're going.
- [42:10]
Zena Kada
All of the teams that we've selected so far, I think Duke is the only one that I'm like, I don't know if they, how much this could change within terms of their trajectory, but Acholokot being someone that's only a sophomore, I think coming onto a team like that, like Duke, getting that national kind of spotlight, regardless of if the team is good or not, just because of the association with Carol Lawson, just because of the heritage of the school, definitely could help her stock in terms of where she could end up in a draft conversation eventually. And playing alongside five star recruits like Atombi Fournier. We know that Carol Lawson is continuing that lineage of five star recruits coming into Duke, so that could definitely help in terms of the players that you guys talked about, Gracie Merkel and Shay Chesky, like, like, how do you think a move like this could help with their stocks and giving them a little bit more visibility in that conversation.
- [43:01]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, I mean, you're seeing something like that with Tania Latson. Right. Where she putting up the type of offensive numbers that we're seeing out of Gracie Merkel and Chase at a smaller school. I shouldn't say a smaller school, but a school that is less relevant nationally in Florida State. And now you get to see how she performs in a context more similar to what she'll see in the wnba. Right. She's going to be playing with players who are as talented as Raven Johnson, Tessa Johnson, Joyce Edwards. Right. And, and seeing how players succeed in a more pro style context, I think is always more interesting than them just getting the ball all of the time and being allowed to do whatever they want with unlimited Runway. Right. So I sort of liken that to like, you know, we see t' Ni Latson figuring out her role on South Carolina, right. And there's, there's highs and lows and I think over the course of the sec, we're gonna see how South Carolina needs to rely on her scoring more in certain situations or maybe as a playmaker more maybe as a rebounder. And that's sort of what I could envision with like a Cesky if she weren't in Indiana, where everything revolves around like, it's remarkable that she's putting up the numbers that she is, considering how much of the focus on every scouting report is just like trying to get the ball out of her hands. Don't let her do what she's trying to do. So to do that against higher level competition deeper into the season I think is always, you know, interesting for pro evaluators. And I mean, if we knew how they were going to do it, they probably would have transferred already.
- [44:12]
Zena Kada
But Ben, think about, again, I'm going to keep using the example and then referencing back out to everything you guys said. So Achola Cott, Oklahoma State right now has like, like six players or so that are averaging 10 or more points. They definitely don't need her 11 or so. But thinking about what Gracie Merkel or Sheczewski or any of the players that you thought about for this exercise even, I like the idea of Janelle Alfie. When you're that low on the totem pole in terms of reverence for what your team produces, you go into a new situation, you might automatically become way bigger in terms of your importance or you might shift down a notch. Do you see a world in which Szychewski shifts down a notch going to.
- [44:58]
Ben Pickman
A USC in actuality? No. Right. I think that's the kind of player like who I think we'll see potentially enter the WNBA draft, right. And see where, you know, she lands as a result. I think the Merkel case is an interesting one generally because you know her. And I think we're going to see this with Audi crooks too. Like, how do they project as pros, right. These centers who very much are efficient and effective around the basket, but don't really stretch out much beyond that. And we've seen a little bit more from Audi crooks in terms of three point shooting. Again, Gracie Merkel taking just one shot outside the paint this year. But you know, think about evaluators and where the WNBA is going. They're looking for stretch fives, they're looking for mobile bigs who can step out and shoot it. They're looking, you know, for versatility. Very few teams are just relying on back to the basket post and saying, we're going to throw the ball down to you and see how you score. And this is true across, you know, a lot of levels of basketball. Right. It's happening very much in the NBA as well. So those two players in particular, I think are very interesting from a, like a potential pro outlook perspective.
- [46:03]
Zena Kada
But I mean more so like within the programs that you're sending them to. How quickly will they become focal points or would they become, will they shift from being a focal point to more of a peripheral kind of just supporting cast member to help elevate a team?
- [46:19]
Ben Pickman
I mean, I think that's like what we would have to see. Like it's really always interesting when star players from one programs shift into other roles at other programs. Right. Think about Charlize Ledger Walker right now going from Washington State to ucla. I don't necessarily think, and maybe Sabrina has a, you know, different opinion here that like that's hurt her draft stock per se. Right. She's recovering from that ACL injury, so we haven't really seen her much since her, you know, days at Washington State. But it wouldn't be shocking if she was still a first round pick in the upcoming WNBA draft. And we've talked about like her versatility, her ability to impact the game on the glass, to playmake a little bit, to score when she needs like, you know, I think she's still highly regarded even if she's now, you know, just another part of a veteran player on the UCLA core. You know, when we think about dispersals of talent that have been really interesting to watch over the past couple of years, Oregon State, right. Not that long ago we were watching this team in the Elite Eight and seeing Tamia Gardiner, seeing Donovan Hunter, seeing Reagan beers like that was a really high quality collection of players and they totally dispersed. And you know, I think the results have been pretty good. When you think about that dispersal of talent where a lot of those players have gone, how has it impacted their draft stock? I think a lot of those players were still a little bit too early on in their, their collegiate careers to necessarily say one way or the other, Donovan Hunter was a freshman, say when Oregon State went on its Elite 8 run. But you know, I think these are the kinds of things when you're, you know, now when you think about GMs on the college side or when you think about coaches and team building These are all the questions that they're asking and they're very much asking it not only now, but again, March, April, when the portal opens, who are the kinds of players who I think can help us and you know, who might not have been in the best situation or you know, in best situation could have a lot of different meetings depending on the player themselves.
- [48:08]
Zena Kada
Yeah, 1000%. Yeah. It's always interesting not only thinking about if we're gonna put somebody on loan for a semester or whatever, you know, how we're doing this. It's interesting to think about them leaving a situation in which they might be the focal point of their teams entering a situation in which you're literally here because we just needed to plug and play, right? We need to fit a hole, we need to fit some sort of like absence that we had. And sometimes that can elevate your draft spot because that thing is completely highlighted. I think of John and Eepkins at ucla, for example. Three point shooting galore now and that is helping obviously the UCLA need for spacing the floor. But then you also think about some folks that might now shift into a role tonight. Latson comes to mind of me where you don't need the scoring circuit that she put on in Florida State at South Carolina. They're way more balanced of an offense that might look different in terms of what she can produce. But does that necessarily hurt her stock? I don't think so. You're still on a team that is solid and producing and winning and you're contributing in that way.
- [49:08]
Ben Pickman
I mean, I think the other thing I would say is what happens in actuality we omitted, as I said, some mid major players from this exercise. But where you can see that jump in draft stock comes oftentimes from when a mid major player then transfers to a high major program. So think back to a couple years ago, someone like Lou Lopez Seneschal, for instance. She had been at Fairfield for four years. She had basically been or become know the best or one of the best mid major players in the country. I think she averaged close to 20 points her last year at Fairfield. Well, you know, Fairfield right now continues to establish itself as a preeminent mid major, but even back then it still wasn't regarded in the same way that it is currently. And she goes from Fairfield where she had a lot of individual success, but she might not have been on, you know, the radars over a ton of evaluators or certainly a ton of fans she transferred from. You know, Fairfield plays at UConn her last year and she was one of their best and most reliable players. Right. She played in every game. She started every game. She played more than 30 minutes. She averaged more than 15 points, and she ended up parlaying all that success into being the number five pick in the 2023 WNBA Draft. Right? So that is the kind of thing when you're thinking about, you know, what could happen down the road. That's the kind of player obviously to keep an eye on. But we didn't really want to poach those players from their current situations. Right now. I didn't want to be star players from other. Yeah, yeah. If you've decided to a power conference school, I have no problem sending you to another power conference school to get some more credits in this loan exercise.
- [50:40]
Zena Kada
Okay?
- [50:40]
Sabrina Merchant
I mean, you think about the draft stock situation, too. Like another player who went to UConn from a smaller, smaller, I should say, basketball school was Caitlin Chen. Right. And maybe she doesn't get drafted out of the Ivy League, but she did get drafted out of UConn and ended up ending the season on the Golden State roster. Right? So that's another example of that. Now I'm thinking we shouldn't have taken Jessica because she's already a senior and she can't go back to Indiana. It's not like she's actually on loan. She's just finishing out later. So good thing we had Gracie Merkel and Janet Alfie as other options there.
- [51:08]
Zena Kada
Younger folks. Okay. All right. Well, this is an interesting exercise, guys. Let us know what you think. Any players that you would put on loan. If we had a trade machine for college, who would you enter into that machine? All right, let's close out the show. Coming up, some witty catchphrases behind, you know, nicknames, things of that sort that have caught our attention. Last segment on the other side of this break.
- [51:38]
Ben Pickman
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Zena Kada
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Ben Pickman
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Ben Pickman
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That's b-bas.com and use code audio. All right, guys, so this week we received a note regarding Harvard and a New Jersey giveaway that they're going to have coming up in their January 10 matchup against their Ivy League rival, Columbia. And it's important you guys know, like, how do these rivals happen? Like, typically, when you think of a rival in the Ivy League, Yale, Harvard comes to mind. But in the Ivy League, there are particular pairings. You have a buddy school, and basically Harvard and Columbia are their buddy schools. And every time that there's a weekend of games, Harvard and Columbia will play against another pair of buddies, and then they'll switch. So Yale's buddy school was Brown, and if Yale was playing Harvard, that meant Brown was playing Columbia. And that's how the. That that whole rivalry situation happens. I know that's very confusing, but, yes, Columbia and Harvard are quote, unquote, rivals in that regard. But on their January 10 matchup, they're going to be releasing to fans a nerds jersey. But it made me think about it. This is a very niche type of thing. I remember Harmony Turner, great guard out of Harvard last year, like, had the whole thing about nerds can hoop, too, right? That was the whole, like, like, thing they leaned into. And then that made me think of USC and how they had their Ivy League transfers as well, supporting juju Watkins, and it became a Juju Watkins and the nerds. Sabrina, keep me honest. Who were the nerds that came and joined?
- [56:17]
Sabrina Merchant
Mackenzie Forbes from Harvard, Caitlin Davis from Columbia, and Kayla Padilla from Penn.
- [56:22]
Zena Kada
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So I was, like, thinking about it. What are some of the catchphrases that we've heard around women's basketball, college pros, et cetera, that have been like, ooh, that's actually really, really good, because I feel like Harvard's doing the nerds thing. I mean, the whole Ivy League could technically do the nerds thing, but it's cool. So I wanted to ask you guys. I got an idea of mine that I think I actually share with you guys, but I wanted to hear what you guys had to think first.
- [56:45]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, I noticed last year, well, two years ago, the New York Liberty kept using the we're all we got, we all we need. And I've seen that everywhere since then. Like, the Indiana Fever used it in 2025. South Carolina is sort of adopting it with their limited number of scholarship players that are healthy on their current roster. So apparently that one had some Saying power. I guess if you win a championship, then it, like, inspiring for other teams to adapt. I did think it was very funny. This is, like, not even a slogan at all, but when they had the battle for usc, you know, like, South Carolina versus Southern California, I thought it was just hilarious that South Carolina chose to wear their Carolina jerseys that day, which, like, is their own little battle with North Carolina, who actually gets to call themselves Carolina in that thing. Not really a slogan, but just like a moniker that you get to attach yourself to. To bring that into another rivalry was. Was interesting to me. Yeah, the we're all got, we all we need thing making its way across women's basketball has, I don't know, just stood out to me over the past year.
- [57:44]
Zena Kada
It has. I think there's been. There's been a thing in sports always, but particularly the last few years of creating animosity with the rest of your. Your league or your opponents of, like, we're all we got, we all you need. Like, we've got a target on our back, people. And it's, like, interesting. Like, you know, maybe the target is not as big as you might presume, but cool. And I feel like they're between the aces having that a little bit after their championship runs. And then the Liberty kind of adapted that. The we all we got, we all we need. Like, everyone hates us. Like, we're together here. Like, we're worried about what's in the locker room. Like, that's becoming a predominant theme across multiple teams, multiple sports of, you know, that's, we're all we got, we all we need. So it makes sense that that is starting to kind of trickle into other. Other leagues, other sports. And also, for what it's worth, South Carolina don't come for me, but Carolina is always going to be the Tar Heels. And I'm not even saying that like, I'm not a Tar Heel girly like that. But you. I will never, ever be like, oh, yeah, Carolina won the game. And people are gonna be like, oh, South Carolina. No, it's just not gonna happen. Unless I am in the state of South Carolina, it's just not gonna happen. Carolina, I immediately think baby blue. Okay, I'm sorry. I'm just speaking for the masses. All right, Ben, what's your nerdy catchphrase? Or maybe it's not even a nerdy catchphrase. I think I just got Harvard on my mind, so actually, they're doing their job. Good job, Harvard. There it goes. What is your catchphrase? Your thing that's Been interesting in basketball.
- [59:12]
Ben Pickman
I'm going to go to something that Seton hall has done promotionally over the past, I guess, month, or at least they did it one month. Seton hall school up in New Jersey again. East coast school. For people who don't know they're the Pirates, they have a promotion about their head coach, whose name is Tony Bazelle. He is a longtime coach there. And they have a promotion that is Monday Mozzarella with Tony Bozzella. And to me, that is just a delightful little rhyme, a delightful promotion. It is him, seemingly, at least in the tweet that they sent out around a month ago in one of the cafeterias on campus serving mozzarella sticks. Wow. And basically trying to get the word out for Seton hall women's basketball by serving mozzarella sticks. Now, of course, that slogan, it doesn't really land depending on your pronunciation of mozzarella. Right. If you pronounce a mozzarella, you're okay. If you do one of those things like mozzarelle, like, doesn't really have the same kind of ring to it. So I'm not going to do other pronunciations of that cheese that I'm referencing, but you all know what I'm talking about. If you've eaten at Italian restaurants all over the country. But, yes, Monday Mozzarella with Tony Bozzella. I think that's kind of delightful. Great marketing play. Way to get the word out for Seton hall women basketball. I mean, and what's. Who doesn't like a mozzarella stick?
- [60:28]
Zena Kada
Oh, yeah, I like this. This is very niche. I. I love this. And this is very New York of you to know all of the different pronunciations of mozzarella. Thank you for enlightening us there with that. No, I love that. I think mine's very. Mine is more commercial. I think a lot of us have all heard it before, and it literally has translated into more money opportunities for this person. And it's the Fut around and find out. And the reason why this is so perfect to me is because it hits on so many layers. Number one, FAFO was a cultural phenomenon, particularly last year on social media. Like, F around and find out was way beyond women's basketball. And so the fact that a fan came to a game with the sign fud around and find out. Love the creativity from the fan. Then love the adaptation by the parents, because when you went to the Final Four, Az Fudd's parents were wearing the Az Fudd fut around and find out T shirts. And then everybody wanted some and then that became whole thing and then iheartradio was like, this is genius. Let's make a podcast and we're gonna call it Fud around and find out. So I just love the evolution from one fan sign to an actual podcast called Fut around and find out. And the real funny part to me about all of this is that that the whole premise of F around and find out has a feeling of aggression, which is hilarious when you consider who Az Fudd is. Like the sweetest, kindest person by everyone that talks about her or to her. That would not be the type of person that would threaten someone to fudd around and find out. So it just feels like it's a perfect little, I don't know, antonym for who she actually is. But it works. And now it's her podcast and it's a fun listen. And yeah, that's my catchphrase for women's basketball. Let me know, guys. Let us know. Have you guys seen anything else? Any Tony Bozzella or Monday Mozzarella with Tony Bozzella, which I love that or.
- [62:29]
Ben Pickman
I'd like to do Tuesday Toast with Corey Close? That is a free idea for UCLA women's basketball out there.
- [62:37]
Zena Kada
That's another one come up. If you haven't seen some, come up with some. Let us know what you think people should be doing, particularly at your schools or the places that you cheer on and support any players you think should have. I mean, Reese's Pieces. That was my closest number two. Reese's Pieces is so good. The WNBA players, the marketing minds behind those players on it. But we got to figure out what's going on the college level. Ben, you're already on a good start with that. And on that note, that's all we got for you guys today. We will be back on Friday. Wherever you're listening, make sure you subscribe. Make sure you follow like comment. Leave us a five star review. We love to see that and make sure that you are following alongside our partner at the yahoo. Sports hub sports.yahoo.com womens-sports on behalf of the Athletic Sabrina Merchant, Ben Pickman, I am Zena Kaeda thanking you for listening and we'll see you next time. No Off Season is hosted by Zena Kada with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producer is Andrea B. Scott. Our theme music is by Marcus Bagala. Monica Compton is our video editor. Shannon Ryan is managing editor of women's basketball at the Athletic. Jessie Burton is our head of audio and Tim McMaster is director of Audio operations.
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Ben Pickman
Guys, thanks for helping me carry my Christmas tree.
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Ben Pickman
I'm not.
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