← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
What makes a team a “bad” team? + Who’s catching our eye right now
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- [00:00]
Zena Cato
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Chantelle Jennings
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Zena Cato
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Zena Cato
The app Download Today. Hello everyone and welcome to no Off Season. I'm Zena Cato.
- [01:40]
Chantelle Jennings
And I'm Ben Pickman.
- [01:41]
Zena Cato
And today on the show we are pondering some pointed questions like what does hierarchy mean in the wnba? What does it mean when a quote unquote bad team upsets a quote unquote good team? Why does it feel different than in other leagues? Then we're offering up the players that we're keeping an eye on in the second half of the WNBA season. Some names you may be less familiar with. But first, it's been a wacky week in the W. That's what I'll use and I'm here for it. Though on Wednesday night, when the Valkyries took on the dream, I was on broadcast and I'm telling you right now, Lajah Clarendon, who is alongside me, we were not ready for why Cecchi Vandelassini turned her head in abrupt fashion because someone had thrown an item on the court. Now, we are not condoning this, by the way, throwing items on the court Throwing items at athletes. I hate that. It's not cool. However, we've gotten a nice little laugh out of what happened on Wednesday night. A bright green sex toy, we can say an artificial member, an instrument of pleasure, an intimate apparatus, somehow made its way to the Dream home court. And not to be outdone though, on the same night, what I was missing while I was working the broadcast, but the rest of you may have seen, the LA Sparks mascot was taken out, leveled by a halftime performer that was trying to do, I think, around, I don't know, round out little somersault. Who. What is going on, Ben? What's happening right now?
- [03:22]
Chantelle Jennings
That is a great question. What an intro by you today, Xena, to tee off this show. Wait, you were on the broadcast? Like, what was that like? Working a Valkyries broadcast prep, gearing up for post game. When that happened, I mean, well, we.
- [03:36]
Zena Cato
Made the decision, we're just not gonna address it. But I will say this. What was hilarious, especially having we were in the studio, was seeing that some cameraman probably got in trouble because the camera cut so bad quickly off the visual of the intimate apparatus. And it was like, oh, that was not supposed to be seen. Like, we were not supposed to see that. And then you see Renee Montgomery, part owner of the Dream. She's taking care of everything. She's talking to everyone. And I'm like, I know she is like, what are we doing here? How did we get here in the W? And then the onslaught of stuff on social media. Welcome to the W. The Gatorade, the fake Gatorade ads of. Is it in you? Okay, I gotta stop. I can't go any further, Ben. It's been crazy.
- [04:21]
Chantelle Jennings
How did we get here? I think is a good phrase to cap off this part of the conversation.
- [04:26]
Zena Cato
Yeah, absolutely. Let's close it out for them for. Okay, so let's get back to the basketball. Two teams at the top. Okay? The two teams that also happened to vie for this championship last year, the Lynx and the Liberty, met for the first time all season on Wednesday night. Ben, any takeaways from that game?
- [04:45]
Chantelle Jennings
I mean, I think Minnesota looked really, really good. 28 assists on 36 made baskets, a season high. In terms of three pointers made, I think they had 15 threes in the win. So that, to me, very impressive performance, especially on the offensive end for the Minnesota Links. I thought their defense also stiffened in the second half. And honestly, for New York, like Sabrina Ionescu said it post game, there's never a good loss or you never want to lose a game. But like, they certainly bounce back with a lot more effort and intensity and focus on both ends. That I think, you know, is a bright spot considering they were out near out without. They were playing without rather Niara Savoli, without Kennedy Burke and without Brianna Stewart, like. And the key moment I would point to is, you know, it's a four point game with one minute left. New York has just made this charge back into the game cutting a double digit lead, just a four. And Nafisa Collier gets an and one on Izzy Harrison to stretch the lead back up to seven. And guess what, like, if Brianna Stewart was playing in that game, she's probably guarding Nafisa Collier in that situation. So I'm not really reading too much into it from the New York perspective. But again, another good performance from, from Minnesota.
- [05:57]
Zena Cato
Yeah, Minnesota. Big three went off. Nafees Collier 30 points, Kayla McBride 24 points. They ended up scoring 100 total. So literally Collier and McBride totaling up pretty much half of that. Over half of those points. Um, and then, you know, nothing to scoff at. I know Izzy Harrison got scored on, but she did really well. She was incredibly efficient from the floor. Um, make taking those easy shots and making sure that she could find some easy buckets. And then Sabrina Ionescu ending up with 31 was unbelievable. So good matchup despite the lack of star power out of New York. And don't want to listen to this, but I do think though there is a scheduling miss here. Okay. It was Wednesday night, I think the most I saw. You know, ESPN pr, they posted that they were doing their big kind of layout. It was just a quiet situation. I mean, I just felt as if there wasn't enough fanfare. And I've seen this before, we've seen this where the two teams that were in the championship don't play until July. I'm sure, Ben, you've seen this over the years. Why is this the case?
- [07:08]
Chantelle Jennings
I mean, it's a puzzling, I guess, situation. And I use that word on purpose because Cheryl Reeve actually referenced a common puzzle game or a kind of puzzle when referring to this scheduling, I don't know, situation, if you want to call it that. She said that, you know, on Tuesday that I guess the Rubik's Cube that is the WNBA schedule, I guess is not solvable. And she said that with a little bit of sarcasm and a little bit of edge and a little bit of sincerity as Cheryl Reeve mixes all of those things together. Because in her mind, and I think you made this point just now, Xena, that Cheryl Reeve said, like, I think common sense would say or should have said that these two teams would have played earlier in the season. And look, this matchup was definitely not helped by Brianna Stewart not being a part of it because it just didn't have the same level of juice to it. Because when you take out, you know, one of the best players in the league, a former league mvp, obviously someone so important to what New York is doing, and you take her out of the lineup, like, the stakes of this game are a lot less just because this is not New York at its best against Minnesota at its best. And so, yeah, it's obviously like this hypothetical, but it would have been nice to see these two teams match up at full strength earlier in the season and not have to wait till, you know, July 30 to. To see them play.
- [08:24]
Zena Cato
And that's such a great point at full strength when you can expect most teams to be at full strength earlier in the season. That's why you see across associations, other athletic leagues, that first week, first two weeks, that opening era of the league. Every season is like, all right, marquee matchup after marquee matchup after marquee matchup. And of course, we have to think about the fact that usually when the WNBA is starting, that's when NBA playoffs are also in the. In the crux of it, really. People are, you know, towards the end of May, you're getting into the first few weeks or first few rounds, excuse me, of the NBA playoffs. And so, you know, you want to make sure that there's effort towards making sure you market the NBA playoffs not over the WNBA starting its season, but also make sure you market the WNBA starting its season. So it's like the WNBA and the NBA have to find a balance because you cannot feel as if you're starting lackluster in terms of the marquee matchups with the wnba, just to appease the NBA playoffs. And I feel like that's what's going on here. But what do you think?
- [09:32]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah, I mean, I don't know. Like, I think everything that you said is definitely true. And yet, like, the league started this season with New York and Las Vegas, right? And, you know, they clearly made an intentional choice to have that be the kickoff game or one of the kickoff games in the opening weekend. Minnesota opened its season playing Dallas and then la. And yeah, like, scheduling and this is a far bigger conversation. And, you know, there's so many different ways you could go. Like, scheduling is this puzzle of sorts. When you move one game in one spot, you have to move another game in another spot. And there are all these factors. Arena availabilities, concerts. You mentioned it, like, game times. You know, what does national windows want? Like, there's all these factors that come into play, but, like, it seems like if you were going to be intentional about wanting to start with New York, you know, hosting Minnesota to open the year, the reigning champ hosting last year's finalist, you could probably have found a way to make that work. Right. And then just made it work otherwise. Like, there are certain parameters that you often set out with and then you maneuver from there. So, yeah, I think it's definitely a little unfortunate that this happens in end of June or end of July, rather. And then, guess what, Zeno, we're not going to have to wait too long to see these teams play again, because basically, From I think August 10th through 19th, they meet three other times. Minnesota literally plays the New York Liberty in three consecutive games. 10th, 16th, and 19th. Like, what a crazy stretch that is.
- [11:00]
Zena Cato
Yeah. And this happens every year. Like, there was at one point where it felt like the Aces and the Liberty had played, like, five times towards the end of the year, I think, two seasons ago. And we're like, oh, my God, like, this is. This is like overkill. But I think that this is a perfect segue and one of the factors that we can talk about as we ponder some of these big questions that we have for today. So earlier this week, we were discussing as a group with our producers involved, what we wanted to talk about in terms of, you know, our upcoming pods and with some of the upsets that we saw last week. LA over New York, Connecticut over the Valkyries, kind of the way they beat them, Dallas over New York, Atlanta over Minnesota. It was like, okay, cool, this is good. What does this mean for these teams, though? How are we evaluating these wins for the teams that are on the lesser end in terms of the standings, beating their opponents that are maybe ranked higher in the quote, unquote, WNBA hierarchy? And so it got us feeling, got me feeling, why is the WNBA inconsistent in this way? I think the answer is because every team is stacked with good players. It's such a small league. But also, what do we mean when we say a team is a quote, unquote, bad team? I particularly remember a conversation I had about Connecticut, and I had a conversation with someone within their organization. I've had conversations with people that cover the league, et cetera. And it always comes down to, like, even though they're towards the bottom of the league, at the bottom of the league, I can't quite get myself to say they're a bad team. There's so much talent on that team. So, Ben, I want to talk about the hierarchy of it all. What does the concept of hierarchy look like in the W? What makes it different from other leagues? And why do the outcomes of these games, which in other leagues might be inconsequential, feel so heightened in the wnba? Where do you want to start?
- [13:01]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah, I mean, I like the last question you asked because I think there's something so unique about the WNBA and how the schedule is structured in relation to both college basketball and the NBA. Because, you know, the NBA obviously is an 82 game season. So it's, you know, nearly half of what the WNBA currently plays this year. You know, in past years it was more than half WNBA going up from 44 games this year, 40 last year. Whereas college is often like a 30, 35 game season, depending on how long, you know, a team's postseason run is. And so I feel like in the college game, when we talk about women's college basketball, we put a lot of stock in, like every result, right. Every loss that the number five team in the country has to an unranked team or the number 8 team or the number 15 team loses to an unranked team. Like, we put a lot of weight into that, especially at the start of the year. Whereas in the wnba, for me at least, like as you said, Zena, some of these teams, you know, these are all professional teams with professional players who play at a really high level and even teams that are not as good as others. And that is totally fair. The Connecticut sun are not as good of a team as the Minnesota Links. We should be very clear. Yeah, about that. Like, even teams that might not have as much talent, might not have as much continuity, might not be as consistent, might be dealing with injuries, have the ability. And it does feel like this is especially true this year to beat top teams. Like, look at the standings. Look at New York. They're second and just two and a half games behind them are the Indiana Fever. Think about that. Like how inconsistent Indiana has been this year. And the Fever as it currently stands, they would be the six seed in the playoffs and only two and a half games separate two and six, like that is pretty crazy. And not that much separates New York at number two anymore, you know, from the Las Vegas Aces and the Washington Mystics at number nine. That's how close everything is, especially after Minnesota at number one.
- [14:49]
Zena Cato
Yeah. And you know, as Someone that also covers the NBA. It makes me think of the Western Conference, because at all times, it's like, there's a very clear 1, 2, and then everyone else is just fighting for those top playoff spots. But I think that your point about the college game is so true. We put a lot of stock and we make big conclusions, big assumptions. If a team goes down, whether it's early in the season, later towards the end of a season, you are evaluating anyone in the top 25. If they lose to someone that doesn't have a top 25 number beside them, you're like, whoa, blow it up. What's going on in that program? What's happening? You gotta go check out the coaches, talk to the players. And it's just like, it's a whole thing. People are scouring their social media to find out why are the players unhappy? Like, what's happening? How do they lose this game? And I do think that the shortened season has something to do with it. Here in the W, it's happening so quickly. Where you could be, you know, you take the Connecticut sun, for example. You beat the Valkyries team almost by 30 one night, and then two nights later, you lose by 30 to the storm. And it's like, it's such whiplash for fans. And I think that that, you know, lends itself to. Wait, that was a really big game. But wait, I can't get too excited about it because they play, you know, the Storm or the Dream or the Lynx or New York. And every time this, in the last two weeks or so, you know, we've had Set yout Screen. I'm always like, for the teams that are on a heater, I'm like, I want you to go in to the teams at the top of the hierarchy, right? This is a New York, this is a Lynx. This is a Dream Phoenix. And I want you to compete. And for me, that indicates to me, like, all right, this heater isn't a fluke. This isn't, you know, something to scoff off. You guys are on a roll. You're competing. I look at Dallas, for example, having beat New York, and then the way they just played against the Dream last night. From the time that we're recording this, you're like, okay, they're starting to click some things together. So I really think that there's something to be said, though, about the fact that even if the Dallas Wings go on a 5, 6, 7, 8 game streak, we still won't necessarily feel like they're up there with New York and Minnesota. And Phoenix and Atlanta. And I'm wondering how much do we in the media have to do with this narrative structure of, oh, like, if Atlanta loses or if Minnesota loses, it's like, ah, they were off that day versus if Dallas beats them, they're like, oh, they were. You know, it just feels like it's the opposite ends of how we perceive these two teams. And I'm wondering, like, how much do you think that we, the media, and how we react to these games and how we highlight certain games feed into this?
- [17:40]
Chantelle Jennings
I mean, I like to use the word perception, right? Perceived. Because so much of this is just how you choose to make, like, evaluations of teams and what goes into that evaluation. How much do you consider schedule? How much do you consider injuries? How much do you actually look at how a team played, right? Like, how did they shoot? What lineups did they use? You have to think about, you know, I've been thinking a lot about the Phoenix Mercury of late and how, you know, Nate Tibbets, and he told me this at practice last week, like, they're spending the second half of the season, yeah, they want to win games, but in trying to win and get as high of a seat as possible, they're also trying out different lineup combinations to try and best position themselves for a deep postseason run, right? Trying to figure out who can play alongside Satus Abali, Kalia Kopper and Alyssa Thomas. And so, you know, there's certainly a chance that you might lose a game in the regular season because a coach makes a certain lineup decision, because they're just looking for more data, more information, because they're playing the long game. And so maybe we, as the consumer, as the viewer, the analyst should play the long game, too, in that evaluation. But, like, there is a fine line there about trying to look too far ahead versus throwing out everything we just see. Like, it is all about kind of your. Your perception, right? And, like, how you're. You're looking at it.
- [19:00]
Zena Cato
But how boring would it be, Ben?
- [19:02]
Chantelle Jennings
So boring. It's so boring. Xena.
- [19:04]
Zena Cato
It's so boring. If we're just like, well, you know, you can't assess this win or this loss in this way because this group of people haven't played together more than a, you know, 10 minutes this season or 15 minutes this season. It would require the media, who has to basically explain the game and give context to the game and context to these games in general, you know, to go into depth that people are like, no, I'm not doing all that. I'm telling you Right now, the Dallas Wings lost Atlanta by two and it came down to a last second shot by Nas Hillman. And if they would have had a little bit more time, that shot was short. At the end of the game, they could have beat Atlanta, they could have beat New York. These are big time wins that Dallas Wings are having and man, they're making the playoffs. Like that's more fun than the other options.
- [19:46]
Chantelle Jennings
That is definitely more fun. And you know, I guess that's why you are great at coming up with takes and I'm a lot more measured and of a curmudgeon when I watch these games. I mean look, we look for trends, right? I mean Sabrina is really, really good at that. Our colleague Sabrina Merchant, she'll be back next week, by the way. Don't worry. Folks out there listening to this. Another, another short break I guess for Sabrina. Much deserved, much deserved. Like she's really good in her power rankings of pulling out trends for certain players and certain teams. And we look at that like you have to think about sample. We're not just trying to make decisions based on one games or evaluations based on one games. And especially in the second half of the year, there's a lot, there is data to go off of again, like to this question of who is a good team and who's a bad team. Like you're not just looking at the first, you know, the last week of games to make that decision.
- [20:36]
Zena Cato
So, okay, so okay, let's talk about this, right? What goes into labeling a team as a good team or bad team? And I've been thinking about this a lot because as I mentioned earlier, I do feel like there are certain teams that regardless of their record, regardless of what's going on, people have it kind of like cemented in their brain. Well, this is a good team. I'll put it out there. The Las Vegas Aces. I think it's a, it's a combination of you've got Becky Hammond at the helm as your head coach. You can't scoff at that. That is Becky Hammond also. You can't scoff at what they've done recently. What have you done for me lately? As Janet would say, yeah, they won back to back titles, but if you really look even more recently, it ain't looking really good right now for the Aces in terms of consistency at least. But people aren't ready to get off of them as someone that could be in this top six teams in this league. And if you ask casual fans that are like, you know, peripherally watching the WNBA people will still think, oh, yeah, the W, like the Vegas Aces, right? Like they're in the top four, right? And it's late because Asia Wilson, Jackie Young, Chelsea Gray, Becky Hammond, their history, their resume, and they're not actually looking at what the actual standings are. And I wanna make sure I'm looking at this right now. So the aces are 14 and 13 and are sitting at seventh as the time that we're recording. Yet I don't know anyone saying, like, oh, they're a bad team. So I want to ask, and I want to have the conversation as to what feeds into the hierarchy of why each season. And really, it's not even sometimes a singular season, but over the course of a period of time, we kind of lock folks in to the good team conversation and bad team conversation. And I'm wondering what gets you out of that bad team conversation and gets you into the good tier? You know, is it the wins, the amount of wins you have? Is it who you're beating? Is it how you're beating them? Right? Like, if you're beating everybody by 20, 30 points every game, that's looking crazy. That's looking amazing. I'll give you a perfect example of, like, how someone did that. UCLA last year, they didn't win the title, but they were beating everybody by 20 points on average, almost. It was easy to cement them as, like, oh, number one team in the country because of things like that. But who were they playing, how were they winning, et cetera. So I want to get your thoughts on this, Ben. What do you think goes into cementing folks in the bad tier, in the good tier? And if you are on a bad team, what would you say you need to do in order to move yourself out of the bad tier? And let's give some examples, real life examples.
- [23:18]
Chantelle Jennings
I really like the Aces call out here because to me, they are the hardest team to evaluate this year. Because I think it's pretty natural to be anchored to past history and recent history when thinking about the Las Vegas Aces, especially when they still have Becky Hammond, his coach, Asia, Jackie, Chelsea leading the way. And so we are almost anchored to their past success. And so it is really hard for people to come to grips with this idea that the Las Vegas Aces are ninth in defensive rating. They lost by 30 to the Minnesota Links. Don't watch that game back if you're a Las Vegas Aces fan. Like, Becky Hammond was not thrilled and they made some lineup change after it, you know, moving Jewel Lloyd off the bench. And so I think it is harder frankly, to come to grips with a great team or a team we thought was great not being what we thought than the other way around. Like, I do think a team that is, you know, bad, that plays better, like, the eyes don't lie there either, I guess. But I think it is a little bit easier for our eyes to open and say, like, oh, the Los Angeles Sparks are better than we thought, or the Dallas Wings play harder than people thought, or the Washington Mystics. We had this preseason expectation and clearly just watch their games. Look at some of, you know, look how hard they compete. Look at the performances of their rookies, of Brittany Sykes, of Shakira Austin of late. Look how they're coached and how prepared they seem. Like, they're clearly better than people thought in the preseason. In some ways, that is a little bit easier, I think, than going the other way of saying, wow, we thought this team was going to be a title contender, and they're actually just the eight seed or the seven seed. And now you have to explain why. And the answer is like, you know, you ask the aces, why haven't you been as consistent? And it's like, well, if they knew the answer, they would be more consistent, right? I've, in many ways, and I've heard many other colleagues in the media ask players on the Indiana Fever, too, why have you not been able to be more consistent? Why have you struggled to understand personnel? Guess what? If those players knew the answer, like, definitively, they probably wouldn't be making those mistakes. That's where this is so hard.
- [25:25]
Zena Cato
Exactly. Exactly. For me, it's a combination of. It's the inconsistency of what you just hit on that really is the factor of, like, it can help the good teams in the sense that if a good team is inconsistent, people aren't as rattled. But if a bad team's inconsistent, it's like, well, that's the factor. That is the killing factor that makes you not a good team that takes you out of it. I want to know, has it always been this way?
- [25:51]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah, I think it's like people's psychology in a lot of situations. I mean, I think the other team that I do want to bring some light to is New York Liberty, Right? Because there was certainly a stretch in the month of July, early July, when they were not playing their best, and it wasn't even just about results. It was just about lapses they would have on the defensive end of the floor. Or, you know, they let teams hang around and hang around, and then maybe they'd pull out A win. But clearly they were not playing their best. And they seem to acknowledge that by bringing in Emma Misimin, who we should say might be available as soon as Friday. She's in the US she is in New York going through physicals and other kind of pre screening to then get ready to play. So we might see her as soon as the end of this week or weekend they play. The Connecticut sun had to get that digression in with New York. The question is like how much can you read into how they are playing? And then they play the way that they did against the Dallas Wings earlier this week where they fall behind by, you know, 30 some odd points and guess what? Clearly like a wake up call was needed. They talked after the game, seemingly had an intense conversation for at least 15 or 20 minutes. Based on what I understand in the locker room post game, like clearly the New York Liberty, when healthy I think are a better team than the Dallas Wings. But that result and how they played was alarming enough, coupled with how they have played of late for them to need some kind of wake up call. Like that's where this all gets so, so crazy.
- [27:20]
Zena Cato
You know, it's so murky. You don't know and you hit the nail on the head. It's our human psychology. It's how we assess these things. It's recency bias. It's. I mean, it's personal bias if you have a love for a particular player, an affinity for a particular player. Of course Asia Wilson fans aren't gonna believe that a team that she's on and averaging crazy numbers on and being an MVP caliber player on isn't a good team. Of course they're not going to say that. I think there's also this factor of teams that are amazing at home and awful on the road. I think the Valkyries are a perfect example of that, where people get a little bit like, are they a good team? Because when they get in the road it gets difficult for them. Like, what's going on? There are so many different examples of this and I want all of you that are listening or watching, let us know. How do you evaluate good or bad teams? And in the wnba, do you have a hierarchy? Is there a team that you just refuse to move out of the good tier or a team that you'll never move out of the bad tier, expansion be damned? It don't matter. They're going to the bottom of the league. Okay, I want to know this because this is very interesting to me as a topic, but Ben, thank you for entertaining my thoughts around this. Got a lot of great insights. Let's keep it.
- [28:39]
Ben Pickman
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Chantelle Jennings
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Chantelle Jennings
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- [30:15]
Zena Cato
All right, so now let's turn our attention again towards the second half of the WNBA season, which is underway, of course, and like we just talked about, there's a lot going on. There's a lot of players that are sidelined due to injury. There is a trade deadline looming next week. More on that to come in a different episode. So we want to take a minute to kind of shout out some players who are maybe a little under the radar, but very much on top of helping their team, assisting their team, and they're catching our eye right now. And we're not talking about any of this year's All Stars and we're not talking about flashy rookies. We are specifically talking about just super intriguing players to look out for. So Ben, I'm going to let you start. Who is on your mind?
- [30:57]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah, I'll start positive here and I should say some of the players that I might throw out I'm intrigued by. Not necessarily for good reasons this season, but I'll throw one player who I think's been a bright spot, who I have an Eye on. And that's Veronica Burton of the Golden State Valkyries. Is she on your list, Xena? Did she make your list or no?
- [31:14]
Zena Cato
She was going to be, but I thought that I would be a homer consistently talking about the Valkyries. But I'm happy that you mentioned her. So this is great.
- [31:20]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah, you know, I thought I'd give you a little homer material to work with here. So you know Veronica Burton. She's, you know, her and Kayla Thornton were top two in usage rate for the Valkyries this season. We've just seen, you know, her role expand as she's come over from the Connecticut sun last year. She played just 12, 13 minutes per game last year, up to 28, 29 this year. But still, like, some of the underlying numbers for Veronica Burton are consistent. In the past, she's still just around a 35% three point shooter. Her assist per 36 is similar. Her defense, a bright spot, still aggressive, stout as always. And now without Kayla Thornton, like, I'm just really curious, what does it look like for Veronica Burton? Because she has clearly messed with KT throughout the first half of the season. And yeah, Golden State has a number of players. You know, I thought about putting Janelle Salon here, Chechi Zander, Lassini. Like, I'm interested in how those players perform too. But with Veronica Burton, she's really been the one consistent player in the rotation for the Valkyries from the beginning of the year to now. She started every game for them. She's the only player to do that. And so a lot more is going to be on her shoulders. And the question of will the Valkyries make the playoffs or miss it, to me, comes down in large part to how Veronica Burton plays in the second half of the year.
- [32:35]
Zena Cato
I 1000% agree with that. Her consistency has been probably the number one thing, especially for what she's been known to be about, which is defense, for her ability to be a playmaker and get her team going. She's also a really great vocal leader for their team. And that's gonna be really important because Kayla Thornton was a vocal leader. She was an emotional leader. She was a lead by example. So it is very much gonna be a, you know, fill in the spot by committee, but Veronica Burton is gonna be the leader of that committee. And so that's a, that's a really good option there. I'm gonna keep it going in the point guard category and I'm also gonna keep it going in the point guard category. That for someone that's gonna have to step up because of an injury. Now, we don't know how long this is gonna be because this person, Ryan Howard, has not been listed out for the rest of the season. But she's been out for a little bit, and she's supposed to be out till the end of July. Today is July 31st at the time that we're recording this, so we'll see when she'll be able to come back. But in the time that she's been gone, Jordan Canada has been really interesting to me, and I was looking at one her career numbers. She's doing better than any of her career numbers this season in terms of just being able to score playmake all of the above. She is being so much more aggressive to the basket. But I'm also looking at the attempts in the last 10 games versus the first 10 games of the season. Like she has exploded in her ability to take the ball herself and get into the rim and get into the paint and take care of business on her own. And I feel like that's gonna be so big. And I wonder. I don't. I've not talked to her and I've not talked to anyone on the staff, but I wonder if that was a message to her because it's like, it's pretty stark just how much she's jumped up to over 10 attempts per game, and she was averaging under five around five towards the first part of the season. It's like you're doubling your attempts at the basket for yourself, but then also still being able to average about five assists per game. So I'm looking at Jordan Canada to be, especially while Ryan Howard is out to be a really intriguing player in terms of finding her own game as opposed to being a facilitator and just a playmaker. And I really like her in the pick and roll. I really like her taking the ball herself off the pick and roll. So that's who I've got my eye on out in Atlanta.
- [34:54]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah, I like that call. I mean, I think Jordan Canada is clearly a very, very important part of what the Atlanta Dream are doing and want to continue to do. And she brings, you know, pushes pace. She brings, as you mentioned, you know, impactful play in the pick and roll. But for me, the player that I actually had my eye on for Atlanta and she made my long list was Nas Hillman. And I think we can talk more. Oh, good. Okay. I knew you were saying you doubled up on Atlanta Dream players. I mean, this is my long list here.
- [35:20]
Zena Cato
So that's the problem. So I don't know, guys, before we shoot our show, we always like, kind of just check in, make sure everything's good, whatever. We don't reveal these things to each other because we want to know in, you know, real time. And before the show, I was like, oh, shoot. And my producer was like, what happened? Ben was like, what's going on? I was like, I messed up. And that's what I messed up on. Because when I chose my team, my.
- [35:42]
Chantelle Jennings
Players, you just went to Atlanta Dreams.
- [35:44]
Zena Cato
I was like, two Atlanta Dream players. What the heck am I doing?
- [35:46]
Chantelle Jennings
Well, I'll save some Nas Hillman material for you then. And I have some other players that I'm happy to talk about. I will just say this about Nas Hillman, I will just say this about NAS Hillman and then I'll explain. You go like, you know their starting lineup in Atlanta, when you have Gray, Jones, Canada, Howard and you plug BG in that lineup, they have a minus 0.9 net rating. When you just switch Nas Hillman in for BG, that goes up to 26.3. She has the best on off differential on that team. Right. And so, yeah, she's a six player of the year, front runner potentially. She had a career game on Wednesday night in Atlanta's win over Dallas. But the question is, you know, when things get tough in late game situations, in the stretch run in the postseason, does Atlanta and Carl Smesco, do they play Nas Hillman more or do they go with the veteran? And Brittany Griner, what did you have on Nas Hillman? What are your thoughts?
- [36:41]
Zena Cato
That's a really good point. My points were more so how clutch she's been. I mean, of course we talk about that Dallas game. She went five of seven from three. And if there is anyone in that program that heard, heard Carl Smesco's call for threes and was like, we are going to be pace in space. You better figure out your perimeter offense. It is Nas Hillman. And I'm like looking at her career three point percentage. For example, she attempted 0.1 in her first year, 0.0 in her second year, and then point one in her third year. Okay. She was not a three point shooter whatsoever. And now she's attempting about 3.4 per game, hitting about 1.2. That's good. One out of three. Great. But it's also the timing in which she's hitting these shots. I mean, again, Dallas is a great example of when she hit that shot with 2.23, I think it was left on the clock, like unbelievable shot making. Ability but she gets to the top of the key. Her above the break 3. I don't know the stats, I don't have them right in front of me. But I know her above the break three numbers are crazy. And she finds a way to be forgotten about in the offense because she is constantly moving and she relocates perfectly. This is why the driving kick is so efficient for Atlanta because you've got people all around being able to space and move around. But I just love that Nas Hillman is someone that people I think are forgetting that she can shoot. She's only averaging 35% from three. Not a crazy number. But it again it's the clutch shots. She's hitting things right after teams are going on runs on Atlanta. She's hitting things late game situations and I, I love the poise with which she's shooting it, especially for someone that wasn't a three point shooter. So Carl Shemesco, shout out for you. You know, revamping the Atlanta offense. But more shout out to Nas Hillman being like hurt. Got you. You need three point shooting. I got you. Anywho, that's what I thought.
- [38:39]
Chantelle Jennings
Can I throw out a player not on the Atlanta Dream who was also in that game that I am very intrigued to see in the second half of the season.
- [38:44]
Zena Cato
Ooh, who?
- [38:45]
Chantelle Jennings
That would be Arike Gumbawale. And she was not an all star this year but she has been obviously a multi time all star in the past. And let's just say that this season has not been so kind to Arike Agumbawale. Right. She is averaging career lows in points, career lows and field goal percentage in three point percentage. You know, tied for career low in rebounds. The Wings have a negative point differential with her on the four though. It's basically just slightly negative, I should say. I mean Dallas has just been super inconsistent all year long and injuries obviously have played a big role in that. Their most used five person lineup combination this season has played only 57 minutes entering Thursday night. They haven't played the same five player group in more than six games this year. Just think about that for a second. When you think about all the different rotation juggling that that Chris Coclanis has had to do. And look, we have seen, you know, Arique fit a little bit better with, you know, Geisel Soder, with Haley Jones, with Paige Beckers, with JJ Quinnerley. We've seen that group of late be pretty good for the Dallas Wings. Haley Jones, we should say shout out to her. She's played very well of late, double digit scoring in five of her last six. But like Arike Gumbawale, you know, was drafted by the Wings, decided to stay with the Wings. We have seen plenty of stars in recent years. Say, like, I don't want to play for Dallas anymore. She has been loyal to that franchise. She is set to be a free agent. And so I'm just really interested about what does this second half look like and what does it mean for her future more than anything else? Will she bounce back? Will she look more like the All Star? Will she position herself to get a big payday to be a star on maybe her next team, or will she elect to stay? Like, clearly things have not clicked this year in Dallas. And so I just have my eye on Enrique as the second half of the season progresses.
- [40:43]
Zena Cato
See, that's the funny thing. I am like, is it clearly. Is it clear that it hasn't clicked? Like, I feel like we've seen games in which it's worked, but it's just again, that word, it's been inconsistent. I don't know if I'm ready, as some folks I've seen on the Internet have said, to part Arike from Dallas. I mean, there are some folks that have called for her to be traded with this upcoming trade deadline. And I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's the players. I feel like there's gotta be a scheme figured out by Cainas and his crew to highlight these skills of all these players better. And we've seen the rookie crew in Dallas find ways to be impactful and find ways to shine out on the floor. And I really think it's a matter of locking on, on 8 or 9 and figuring it the F out. And I give credit. Credit's due. And I give you the benefit of the doubt because you're right. Like they have dealt with a lot of injuries. Maddie Segris, Ty Harris, like, it's. It's not easy to have one of your best three point shooters on the bench. It's not easy to have a person that you were hoping to be a ball handler, a significant ball handler be on the bench. It's. I get that. So I'm gonna give them that. But I don't know if I'm ready to just say that Ari K shouldn't be in Dallas. And. And I'm not saying you're saying that. I'm just saying that's what I've heard. And I don. If I'm ready To say that it can't work. Cause it seems like there is love here with this team. There is chemistry in terms of the vibe on the team. It's just a matter of schematics. It's not been consistent yet. In terms of the execution, the most I was like, whew, okay, were these games against Liberty and Atlanta. But if you look and break it down and I know you be on synergy and you're looking at the stats of how much offense is being run and et cetera, I'd be very curious to see how much ice cancellation ball happens in Dallas, because that is where I'm like, it's cool if you've got unbelievable scorers in a page and an Isaiah James and Arke Gumbawale. But like, how heavy is every offensive possession? Like, how much weight is there versus the fluidity of ball movement? And so that's where Arike gets interesting for me. I'm actually really happy though you chose Arike, because I think it's on the same line of my next choice. And. And that person, I actually was teetering between two. You know what? I'm gonna choose the second. Monique Akwaemakani in Phoenix is an intriguing player for me. This player is supposed to be, quote, unquote, a rookie just because it's her first year in the wnba, but does not play whatsoever like a rookie. Monique has been one of the most delightful surprises, specifically from a defensive perspective. But now with Kyc Hopper finding her way back into the lineup, obviously Satu Sablee is back and fully health. I'm wondering how Monique is going to be continuously used by Nate Tibbetts. And I just love her game in terms of put your head down grit, figure it out and contribute. And I really think that she could be a star. But there's so much talent right now in Phoenix and you're seeing Sammy Whitcomb play incredibly well. You're seeing Kyle Hopper and Satsusable find their fit on this team again after having been out a little stretch. And I want to make sure that Monique doesn't get lost in this because of just how valuable she is. And I don't know, I feel like my other person was gonna be Kyle Copper because she's gotta come back and get some. Some consistency similar to Arique in terms of fitting back on this squad. And I remember Sabrina saying earlier this season, it might be better that Kyle Copper comes in now towards the end of the season, which allows for Phoenix to get their groove going, which they absolutely did. And now I'm just wondering, does Monique produce enough offense for them? Is her plus minus which is always awesome enough to keep her out on the floor and contributing?
- [44:41]
Chantelle Jennings
I mean I think she's certainly developed into a really important part about what they do. You mentioned it. She is actually first in on the Phoenix Mercury in terms of on off points differential. She has a. They're plus 15.4 better with her on the floor. And we saw when she did not play against the Atlanta Dream, I think it was around 10 days ago. You know, they fell behind early in that game. They were behind by double digits at halftime and they just didn't look the same on either end of the floor because, you know, and Nate Tibbett's actually said this, I had asked him about it in New York. Xena, like Phoenix, she is one of their primary ball handlers who just initiates offense, right. Monique and 80. And so without her in that, that Atlanta game, there were a couple instances and Nate Tibbets called this out of like all the players else on the floor just running up the floor.
- [45:31]
Zena Cato
Yeah.
- [45:31]
Chantelle Jennings
And like no one was there to just catch the inbounds pass. Right. And that is a prime example of just what she means. And I also like the call of Kalia Copper. I had some notes on her and again it goes to what you're saying. Like she's still just played 10 games at the time that we taped this or 15.2 points. That's the fewest she has scored since 2021. And as I said, you know, earlier in the show, I think Phoenix, especially with that big three is very much still trying to figure it out. They're trying to figure out how people fit next to each other, how those big three plays off of each other. And you know, that is kind of one of the big questions because like the vibes are good there. Even despite some recent losses, they've clearly found some talented rookies. Cat West Belt you mentioned. Hell, like they contributors who can play a big role in that lineup AT has been great. You know, ascended very much into that MVP conversation yet again. And yet there are certain things in terms of KA now like that we're still waiting to see it all come together. So I think having her on your most intriguing players in the second half list is certainly another good call out. Cena.
- [46:38]
Zena Cato
Okay. I mean I think I did decently well. I'm very curious to see or hear what Sabrina would say in terms of her intriguing players. For some reason I just feel like someone in LA would have been on that list. But we'll see. She'll be back very soon, guys. Don't worry. She's just getting some much needed rest as we all, all needed. And now we're going to be all back together next week. But before we do that, we gotta set our screens. The Snack Wrap is Back. This episode of Giggly Squad is brought to you by McDonald's and I'm so excited to tell you that the snack wrap featuring juicy white meat, chicken, shredded lettuce, melty cheese, creamy ranch.
- [47:22]
Chantelle Jennings
Sorry I'm drooling on the microphone right.
- [47:23]
Zena Cato
Now, all wrapped in a soft tortilla is back on the menu. They have it in ranch or spicy, a spicy pepper sauce. If you're feeling frisky, try the snack wrap that broke the Internet at a McDonald's near you.
- [47:39]
Ben Pickman
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- [48:04]
Zena Cato
Code on the go.
- [48:08]
Ben Pickman
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- [48:44]
Zena Cato
Okay, so we can't forget it's Friday. It's time to set your screen. Presented by BetMGM. Get in on the excitement at BetMGM with any sport. No sweat token. If you don't win your wager, you'll get a stake back in bonus bets. So Ben, what are we tuning into this weekend?
- [49:02]
Chantelle Jennings
Yeah, I'm gonna pick the nationally televised game on Saturday afternoon between the Minnesota Links and the Las Vegas Aces Xena. And maybe I am also a little bit of a sucker here because if you think back to our earlier part of the conversation, like the Minnesota Links on July 25th beat the Las Vegas Aces by 32 points.
- [49:24]
Zena Cato
109.78 y' all right, so the question.
- [49:28]
Chantelle Jennings
Is then why am I interested in this game among all other games on Saturday afternoon? And it is because of some of those things that have grounded us in the past. We know that the Minnesota Links are a great team and we know that on paper, in theory, the Las Vegas Aces should be able to have a competitive game against the Minnesota Links. That is why the networks have made the decision to have this be a standalone on Saturday afternoon. And maybe we're gonna see that happen and maybe the dissonance or reality that we should be thinking about this matchup will come to a head. But I will be tuning in to watch it and then make a determination about how it looks after the fact.
- [50:09]
Zena Cato
I like that. I like that a lot. I want to see the rematch. I want to see Fee and Asia, both of whom played well in that last game, but clearly one team played a little bit better on one side. But that's a really great choice. I'm actually going to go with Sunday's game. Indiana Fever taking on the Seattle Storm and the only reason that I'm very excited to see this game is because I recently listened to Post Moves, the new podcast with Candace Parker and Aaliyah Boston. And at one point Candace asked Aaliyah like what do you think is the outlook for the Indiana Fever? She very specifically said 11 4. She wants to finish the season 11 4. And I think, you know, she mentioned from the perspective of getting playoff position, that's really important and this is a team that's going to, you know, still doesn't have a Caitlin Clark. And Aaliyah mentioned it as well that without having Caitlyn, you know, the spacing isn't as perfect as it was with her because people obviously making sure they're pushed up on Caitlin. But what happens is tons of different people find a way to score, find a way to be involved, find a way to get the offense flowing. And yeah, I just want to see if that put to the test against the Seattle Storm, against some vets and Skylar Diggins and Neca Guimike and see what happens there. So that will be the game I'm watching for this weekend. Well, that's going to do it for us today. We will be back on Tuesday with a fresh edition of the Sabrina Scale and some very fun takes on the looming trade deadline. I've seen some of these tweets in the blue sky posts in which you guys are listing players you think should be moved at the trade deadline. What is this version of the wnba? It's getting even wackier out here, but I like it because we're going to talk about it in terms of teams and potential trades. You guys have to make sure you're there, tuned in and how you can do that. Follow and subscribe. Make sure you follow our show wherever you're listening. Spotify, Apple, YouTube, give us a rating. Drop a comment, let us know what's a good team, what's a bad team? Also, did you laugh at the Intimate Apparatus? I want to know how these things are landing with you guys. By the way, we'd love to hear from you. And of course head on over to our partner, the Yahoo Sports Hub for more content@sports.yahoo.com womens sports on behalf of the Athletic Ben Pickman and myself, thank you for listening and we will see you next time. No Off Season is hosted by Zena Cato with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producers are Andrea B. Scott and Cassius Fleming. Our theme music is by Marcus Bagala. Monica Compton is our video editor. Shannon Ryan is managing editor of women's basketball at the Athletic. Jessie Burton is our head of audio and Tim McMaster is director of Audio operations. Operations.
- [53:13]
Ben Pickman
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- [54:11]
Zena Cato
This episode is sponsored by Hulu. So all right, guys and girls is happening. King of the Hill is officially back.
- [54:17]
Chantelle Jennings
It's been 15 years and now Hank and Peggy are finally returning to Ireland.
- [54:21]
Zena Cato
Texas, after a little detour to the Middle East. But home's looking a bit different these days. Bob is all grown up running a German Japanese fusion restaurant in Dallas. Because why not? And yes, he's still fumbling through his feelings for Connie. Boomhauer's now an online ladies man. Bill's seen better days.
- [54:39]
Chantelle Jennings
And Dale, well, he's still just Dale.
- [54:42]
Zena Cato
So, yeah, Arlen's changed. But the alley boys still posted up where Hank left them, beers in hand. Alamos on ice.
- [54:48]
Chantelle Jennings
Same hill, new day.
- [54:50]
Zena Cato
An all new season of King of The Hill arrives August 4th. Streaming on Hulu Disney Plus.