What the WNBA can learn from the NWSL CBA + Here come the Aces (and Violet!)

Summary

No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show Episode: What the WNBA Can Learn from the NWSL CBA + Here Come the Aces (and Violet!) Release Date: August 15, 2025

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Introduction and Game Recap

Hosts: Zena Keita, Chantel Jennings, Sabreena Merchant, and Ben Pickman kick off the episode with a recap of the recent Las Vegas Aces versus New York Liberty game held on Wednesday night in Las Vegas. The game was a nail-biter, featuring 13 lead changes and nine ties, ultimately ending with the Aces securing an 83-77 victory.

Ben Pickman highlights the significance of the Aces' performance post their earlier 53-point loss to the Minnesota Lynx in early August:

“Las Vegas’s offensive rebounding rate is over 41%. That is up from 27.8% at the start of the season up until that loss. They are crashing the glass more... they are using their size, their physicality to try and create second chance opportunities.” ([03:36])

Sabreena Merchant discusses the challenges faced by the Liberty without key players like Breanna Stewart, Niara Sabili, and Izzy Harrison:

“It's just a very different Liberty team than we saw at the start of the season when they had that dominant 90 start... There's a certain, like, I don't know, look that championship teams have, and you just haven't seen that from the New York Liberty of late.” ([05:33])

Aces' Strategic Adjustments and Team Dynamics

The hosts delve deeper into the Aces' strategic enhancements, particularly focusing on Jewel Lloyd's impactful performance off the bench and the overall positive locker room vibe contributing to their five-game win streak.

Sabrina Merchant emphasizes the Aces' lineup adjustments and the increasing team cohesion:

“There is just like there's some sort of like mentality shift involved like Jewel Lloyd being willing to sacrifice and putting the team over herself... There's just like a better locker room vibe with the Las Vegas Aces.” ([10:35])

Violet the Valkyrie: A Mascot Makeover

The conversation shifts to the introduction of Violet (Vi), the new mascot for the Valkyries. The hosts discuss the creative unveiling and the mixed reception from fans and other teams.

Ben Pickman critiques the involvement of Quinton Post, a Warriors player, in Violet's introduction:

“They brought on Warriors forward Quinton Post... But, Violet does end up making a layup later in the game through another timeout. So that was really good.” ([12:43])

Sabrina Merchant and Zena Keita comment on Violet's attempts to make layups, questioning the necessity of such actions for a mascot:

"A mascot does not need to know how to make layups. They just need to know how to entertain us." ([14:16])

Ownership and Relocation Concerns: Connecticut Sun

Ben Pickman provides an update on the Connecticut Sun, detailing the complexities surrounding the potential sale and relocation of the team:

“We know the Connecticut Sun very much are up for sale. There has been some reporting... Houston is also an option to potentially acquire the Connecticut Sun via sale.” ([18:14])

Interview with Meg Linehan: NWSL CBA Lessons for the WNBA

The show features an insightful interview with Meg Linehan, Women's Sports Lead at The Athletic and host of the podcast Full Time. Meg shares her expertise on the recent NWSL Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA) negotiations and explores what the WNBA can learn from them.

NWSL CBA Negotiations Overview

Meg outlines the progression of the NWSL CBA negotiations, emphasizing the shift from the contentious first agreement tied to the NWSL abuse scandal to a more collaborative second negotiation:

“In this version of the CBA, they tied revenue share to the salary cap itself... if a certain number is hit in terms of profit from the league, a certain percent, I think 10%, goes right back into the salary cap.” ([26:09])

Revenue Share and Financial Transparency

The discussion highlights the critical aspect of revenue share and financial transparency. Meg explains how the NWSL secured player salaries through revenue sharing mechanisms tied directly to league profitability:

“They tied revenue share to the salary cap itself. And the salary cap in the NWSL is, in theory, sticking around to maintain parity across the teams.” ([30:00])

Sabrina Merchant underscores the importance of these negotiations for the WNBA:

“Financial transparency. What a concept, right? What a concept.” ([33:16])

Public Opinion and Its Impact

Meg and the hosts discuss the role of public opinion in the success of collective bargaining, drawing parallels to the U.S. Women's National Team's fight for equal pay:

“There was a real sense of, you know, they went out, they made a documentary... public sentiment is always going to be behind the players.” ([35:40])

Challenges and Opportunities for the WNBA

The conversation moves to the WNBA's unique challenges, including player load and injury prevention. Meg highlights the necessity for comprehensive medical resources and roster depth to sustain player health amidst an expanding season:

“Player load in terms of again adding games to a calendar. That's been a real sticking point for years.” ([43:15])

Growth and Star Power in Women's Sports

The hosts reflect on the burgeoning popularity of women's sports, citing stars like Caitlin Clark in basketball and Trinity Rodman in soccer as catalysts for increased viewership and engagement.

Sabrina Merchant raises critical points about racial dynamics and the representation within women's sports:

“You think about Caitlin Clark being the face of a league that is predominantly black. And now you look at the NWSL, which is becoming increasingly more diverse and what that means.” ([52:12])

Upcoming Games and Hosts' Picks

In the concluding segment, the hosts share their predictions for upcoming WNBA games:

• Ben Pickman selects the Phoenix Mercury vs. Seattle Storm game, anticipating a pivotal matchup for playoff standings.
• Sabrina Merchant picks the WNBA's first regular-season game in Canada, highlighting the Dream vs. Canadian team as a must-watch event.

Closing Remarks

The episode wraps up with reminders to follow and subscribe to the podcast, alongside information about the next episode's lineup.

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Notable Quotes:

• Ben Pickman ([03:36]): “Las Vegas’s offensive rebounding rate is over 41%. They are crashing the glass more... they are using their size, their physicality to try and create second chance opportunities.”

• Sabreena Merchant ([05:33]): “There's a certain... look that championship teams have, and you just haven't seen that from the New York Liberty of late.”

• Sabrina Merchant ([33:16]): “Financial transparency. What a concept, right? What a concept.”

• Meg Linehan ([26:09]): “They tied revenue share to the salary cap itself... if a certain number is hit in terms of profit from the league, a certain percent, I think 10%, goes right back into the salary cap.”

• Madison H. ([35:40]): “Public sentiment is always going to be behind the players.”

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This episode of No Offseason offers a comprehensive analysis of the WNBA's strategic developments, the introduction of new mascots, ownership challenges, and valuable lessons from the NWSL's recent CBA negotiations. The insights provided by the hosts and guest Meg Linehan serve as a pivotal guide for understanding the evolving landscape of women's basketball and its intersection with broader women's sports dynamics.

Transcript

[Zena Kaeda]

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[Zena Kaeda]

Hello, everyone and welcome to no Off Season. I'm Zena Kaeda.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I'm Sabrina Merchant.

[Ben Pickman]

And I'm Ben Pickman.

[Zena Kaeda]

And today on the show, it's an athletic women's sports crossover extravaganza. Meg Linehan, women's sports lead at the Athletic and the host of the women's soccer Pod Full Time, is joining us and she knows more than a thing OR2 about CBA negotiations in the NWA. So we want to know how might these things cross over, what lessons might carry over to the wnba. Plus, we also want to talk about how this explosive moment in women's sports is happening and what does it mean for all of us in the ecosystem. But first, we got to check in on some news around the association. The Liberty and the Aces faced off Wednesday night in Las Vegas. Competitive battle that saw 13 lead changes, nine ties, and neither team with more than a seven point lead at any point in the game. In the end, the Aces walked away with an 83:77 victory. Ben, as our resident Liberty expert, what are your big takeaways after this game?

[Ben Pickman]

Well, I guess my big takeaways, you know, are actually on the Aces side. Cause I think what they are doing is more significant than anything going on in New York Liberty land right now. Because since the Las Vegas aces had that 53 point loss to the Minnesota Links in early August, they have not lost. They're currently on a five game win streak. They're playing their best basketball of the year. And frankly, their win against New York was maybe their most significant win of the year. They hadn't beaten the New York Liberty in a regular season game in nearly two years. And a couple of things caught my eye in that victory. The one thing I wanted to highlight other than just Jewel Loy's performance and she was playing way better of late since coming off the bench. It's just Las Vegas's offensive rebounding prowess because that is something that we have seen them recommit themselves to since their loss to Minnesota in early August. Las Vegas offensive rebounding rate is over 41%. That is up from 27.8% at the start, from the start of the season up until that loss. And what that tells me is just they are crashing the glass more. They're using their size, their physicality to try and create second chance opportunities and just wear down their opponents. And that is exactly what we saw against New York. They had eight offensive rebounds in the fourth quarter. Watch the end of that game. Again, you just see Asia Wilson, even on missed shots, corralling misses, she had 16 boards in all integral to Las Vegas closing out that victory. And, you know, a significant one at that.

[Zena Kaeda]

Yeah, I mean, Kirsten Bell was on the boards, Melissa Smith was on the boards. And I wonder how Melissa Smith actually plays into that offensive rebounding perspective. Because one thing I've noticed about in that game and in games in other games is that because she's not the focal point like an Asia Wilson is inside the paint. She's crashing, she's slashing and kind of being forgotten about on the weak side. Sabrina, maybe you have some takeaways from the New York side, but I agree with you, Ben. I think the Aces are really making and made a statement in that game and have since that Minnesota game. But really in their last 10, I mean, seven and three in their last 10. What's New York looking like without Stewie out on the floor?

[Sabrina Merchant]

I mean, I think without Stewie on the floor, it's just really hard to gauge what New York is going to be a month from now when the playoffs start. Because, you know, you don't have Stewie, you don't have Niara Sabili. They haven't had Izzy Harrison. Kennedy Burke just came back for this game. They introduced Emma Miesiman, introduced Stephanie Talbot. I'm not even sure that Stewie played with Talbott. She definitely hasn't played with Meeseman. But there's just a lot of pieces coming together and they haven't quite figured out how everything fits with one another. It's a very different Liberty team than we saw at the start of the season when they had that dominant 90 start. And the thing that kind of concerns me about New York is like you see teams that go through these stretches where they don't have their best players. I hate to always make the NBA comparisons, but I think about the Oklahoma City Thunder and they were without one of their centers for a lot of the season this year. And this is a team that wins a championship, but you never see them decommit from those winning habits. Right. They always played Oklahoma City Thunder style of basketball even when they were missing parts of the rotation. And with the Liberty like you're seeing it called out a lot these days in press conferences, like turning the ball over too much, not knowing if people are cutting or spacing and like just little things that they're not committing to. Not protecting the defensive glass. Right. We saw that to a great extent against the Las Vegas Aces and this is not the kind of thing that championship teams sound like, right? Like, you see the Minnesota Lynx and they haven't won a title, but like they're without Nafisa Collier, they miss Caleb McBride for part of the season. They always committed to playing with winning habits. And that's just not the thing that you're seeing from the New York Liberty during this particular stretch. And it's one thing for that to be in house, but it's another thing for press conferences to just be littered with comments like that all the time. From Sandy Brandella, from Sabrina Nescu, from Emma Mieseman, who just got there and is already talking about how this team doesn't have the right behaviors on both sides of the ball, which is quite a thing for somebody to say when they literally just got to your team two weeks ago. But Emma Easiman is a champion at the WNBA level, at the Euroleague level, Eurobasket earlier this year. So, you know, I've been very hesitant to be too down on the Liberty because when they have Jonquil Jones, when they have Brianna Stewart, when they have Spreed Escu, like probably the best Big three in the wnba, but there is a certain, like, I don't know, look that championship teams have, and you just haven't seen that from the New York Liberty of late.

[Zena Kaeda]

Before we get off of the Liberty and the Aces, you're making such a great point, Sabrina, that I have to ask both of you, Sabrina, I'll let you go first and then, Ben, I'll let you go. What would you say is the brand of basketball that New York likes to play? Like if some random changer never seen women's basketball ever and they're learning what it is and you had to go around the association you're labeling, oh, this team likes to play pace and space. This team likes to play in the half court, whatever. What would you say is the theme or the brand for New York?

[Sabrina Merchant]

I think I'll just steal Sandy Brondello's words of paint to great. That's basically what the Liberty do, right? Both on offense and defense. Right. Like defensively, you suck in and protect the paint. And offensively, like, all of their best shots come when they get into the paint first and like, work from there.

[Zena Kaeda]

There you go. Ben, what do you think?

[Ben Pickman]

Well, as you know, Sabrina and I are on the same wavelength because had you not used that phrase, I was going to use the good to great paint to great cliche that Sandy Brandello says. I mean, I think the thing we've seen with Emma Eastman Coming in is that New York has gotten back to having some high, low action, right? Having a big on the perimeter, kind of feed the post and feed the paint. And that is something that Brianna Stewart has been so good at for so long and so often does that to John Paul Jones. Emma Mieselman, a really good passer in her own right. And so they've kind of added that element back into their offense as they've gotten her more opportunities and had her settle in. And I think on the defensive end, what we have also seen is just how much of an eraser that Brianna Stewart is, that she is really like a free safety role, switching on to anybody, you know, roaming around on defense, her length, her athleticism, like they missed that on the defensive end of the floor. Because what we have seen on that end is teams are just putting Jonquil Jones in pick and roll action and oftentimes they are frankly drawn her away from the rim and trying to pick on her a little bit. And we saw Las Vegas have some success there, too. So, you know, Stewie said she plans on coming back before her birthday. Her birthday, I believe, is August 28th. You know, one game that I have Potentially circled is August 25th. New York plays Connecticut at home. That feels like, to me, it's their first home game. And a little bit after a road trip, that feels like a potential return game if you're trying to circle dates. Again, no reporting on that specific game, but has all the makings of it and ease back in Stewie kind of return game.

[Zena Kaeda]

I like paint to gray. I've always looked at New York as like, beat the trees. These trees that have these limbs that make it incredibly difficult on defense. And then you've got these trees that are capable of also shooting and handling the ball and doing all these things that from Jonquil Jones down. And I'm sure Sabrina Yanescu would be very glad to be called amongst the trees. But swinging it back really quickly to the Aces, Jewel Lloyd coming off the bench was the best thing they ever did. It's crazy how much of a spark plug she's become, and I just wanted to give her that credit and particularly the Aces for adjusting in that way. Any last comments on just how big of a win and particularly the stretch they've been on? Sabrina, I want to let you touch on that as well.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, I mean, we've seen a lot of different starting lineup combinations out of the Aces this season. I think there have been seven thus far this season. The latest coming with Dana Evans in the starting five. Against New York because Becky Hammond said she wanted her speed right. In that particular matchup. I mean the ratings are still the best when Jill Lloyd is on the court. Right. Like that five group of Melissa Smith, Jewel Lloyd, plus those returning three, Evasual Wilson, Jackie Young and Chelsea Gray. Like that's still their best lineup and you see that closing most games. But I do think that there is some sort of like mentality shift involved like Jewel Lloyd being willing to sacrifice and putting the team over herself. And she had a very team focused post game interview with ESPN broadcast after that game against Celebrity on Wednesday. There is just like there's some mojo that seems to have been shifted Right. With this particular lineup adjustment. And I think that more than anything is you're just starting to see a better locker room vibe with the Las Vegas Aces. And they're very much like a we gotta feel good to play good kind of team. And I think that's all part of it.

[Zena Kaeda]

They're also a look good, feel good, play good, all the above for sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, let's keep it moving because of course Aces Liberty happened, Seattle Storm Atlanta happened. Good to see Ryan Howard back on the court. Now she's got two games under her belt. Valkyrie's Mystics happened. They made some history. Veronica Burton first 30 point game out of any Valkyries player. 30 points out of Veronica Chetchy had 20 points. I mean it was a phenomenal outing. But that actually wasn't the focal point for the Valkyries this week. It was the fact that they got a egg to hatch. Yep. That mysterious egg ended up being Violet or Valkyrie's Vi. Violet's nickname is vi. And yeah, you know, when it happened, we had some thoughts. Sabrina, this was your focal point earlier this week and we were texting back and forth about it. We had our thoughts about it. Anytime someone comes out to is that my bestie and a Tessie Saweetie. I just love that song. In the Bay, we listen to it all the time. Valkyrie Violet. Like Violet comes out, she is strutting. Okay. Strutting. Looks amazing. I would say the biggest faux pas. And Ben, I know, I'll let you kind of take this from me. There was a moment where a Warriors player became involved. Break it down. Like, what were your thoughts on the way that Valkyrie Violet was introduced to the world?

[Ben Pickman]

I mean, I agree, Xena. I think the pre production aspect of this or the pre unveiling was genius. I thought they had multiple social videos that played off this theme of the bird watchers preparing to hatch. Right it was Birdwatchers night. They gave away binoculars. Like, they had a social video with Monique Billings where, like, the bird had appeared to hatch. And it's like, where is the bird? And she's kind of looking around the arena. There were feathers scattered all over. I thought that part was great. And then the start of the actual introduction of Violet, I thought also, you know, you mentioned it, like, great energy, good vibes. And then early on in the halftime introduction, you know, maybe a third of the way through, they brought on warriors forward Quinton Post. And if you're not familiar with Quinton Post, as a listener of this podcast, that is okay. A lot of NBA fans who might be listening to NBA Podcast regularly probably don't watch a lot of Quentin Post. He's a pretty anonymous forward on the Golden State Warriors. It's just going to be funny in, like, five years from now when he's playing, you know, for the Memphis Grizzlies or the Charlotte Hornets or the Orlando Magic that, like, Quentin Post is in this unveiling video. But, hey, too much on post.

[Zena Kaeda]

They actually quite need him. Okay. They need size and they need stretch shooting. Okay, well, we'll see.

[Ben Pickman]

We can take that to an. Well, we can take that to an NBA podcast. But, yeah, they have Violet, like, try and attempt some layups, and she missed three in a row. And really, it was like, why are we making Violet the mascot do this? A mascot does not need to know how to make layups. They do not need to know how to make jump shots. They just need to know how to entertain us. I will also say love the round glasses on Violet as a Round glasses.

[Zena Kaeda]

Where are my shirts as you adjust yours.

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, as I adjust mine. Partial to people and mascots, I guess, who, you know, wear round glasses. So that is a check for me. But, yeah, no layups needed from Violet. Going forward, please.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Just a peek behind the curtain regarding Violet's introduction. So we have a group text, you know, among members of this podcast and our producers, and it's usually just like, okay, I saw this thing. Like, we should bring it up on the show, you know, in our next episode. Our group text has never been as frequent as it was during the introduction of Violet. Just comments on everything that was happening from the feathers and the color of her uniform and the glasses and just the overall attitude and dancing and obviously the layup. The comparisons, I think, to Ellie are going to happen, right? She does have an attitude, right? Not an Ellie attitude, let's say, but just, like, a little more presence than most mascots generally do. So that's naturally gonna draw some comparisons to Ellie. I did get a chance speak with some of the New York Liberty team personnel when they were in Los Angeles this week after the introduction of Violet. And they were particularly interested in the Ms. Layups because they said Ellie would never. Ellie would never touch a basketball. Right. Like, this is something that mascots do not need to do.

[Zena Kaeda]

That was my immediate instinct. So for those of you that didn't see it, I'm just gonna quickly break down. They first gave Violet a basketball and she went to attempt like the two step go up layup. And then she threw it behind her. And I immediately go, this is so cute. Of course she doesn't know how to play basketball. She just hatched today. That's not her job. She doesn't even know what's going on. And it went with what Ben is referring to as far as a marketing genius. Like, they had the bird's eye view, no pun intended. But quite literally the view from Vi's eyes is like her blinking and opening up and meeting the dancers and seeing the arena. And it was so cute. And I was like a person that just got to earth probably doesn't know how to play basketball. So when she threw it backwards, I 1000% assumed that the next words out of the announcer Ari's mouth was gonna be, oh, you don't need to worry about playing basketball. Your job is to make us laugh, make us dance, all that. And I thought she was gonna bust out a choreographed dance. And then you could imagine my surprise as someone that also covers the Warriors. When Quinn Post walked out, I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. What are. I don't. I mean, I love Quentin, I love pose. But do we need him, of all people, teaching Vi how to make layups? First of all, his specialty is threes. Okay, we should have looked at that. But I. I do feel bad for whoever was in that costume, cuz it's not easy. Let's just put that out there to look through the beak. Incredibly difficult. Vi did end up making a layup later in the game through another timeout. So that was really good. And she did a little chicken head afterwards, so shout out to her. But yeah, I think it's going to be interesting how she stacks up against all the other mascots.

[Ben Pickman]

Xena, can you be on like mascot duty? Watch as someone who's covering the Valkyries on how Vi's like, performance on court fares, like I would be curious. Are they going to continue to have her attempt shots during games. Like, what does the athleticism of the mascot look like? Like, can you be a little bit of a. A Tracker or a stats.wnba.com on mascot. Watch for this story for us.

[Zena Kaeda]

I like this. I like this idea a lot. I think right now, Vi already, day one has more attempts on basket than the Lioness in Chicago. I'm blanking on her name right now. Sky.

[Ben Pickman]

Skye the Lioness.

[Zena Kaeda]

Skye the Lioness.

[Ben Pickman]

That was a rebranded mascot last year, we should say.

[Zena Kaeda]

Correct.

[Ben Pickman]

So not great that you forgot the name.

[Zena Kaeda]

Yeah, I'm sorry. Skye the Lioness and also Ellie. I mean, that's not a thing. So the point is, Violet is on beat. That's what matters. And she's got a really cute outfit. She's like a nerdy little cheerleader with the round gold rimmed glasses. She's nearsighted. We found out a lot of things in the press release. You guys can go read it. But yeah. Welcome, Violet, to the wnba. We are excited to have you. No need to attempt any more layups. We got you, girl. Don't worry. Okay, let's round this out really, really, really quickly because I heard there's something going on in Houston, but with Connecticut. Ben, what's the update there? What's going on with the Sun?

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, it's unclear what exactly is going on because this process involving the Connecticut sun just seems to get more complex with every passing day and every passing week. We already know that the Connecticut sun very much are up for sale. And there has been some reporting that we've talked about on the show and written on the site as it relates to the sun potentially being purchased by someone named Steve Pagliuca, a former Celtics minority owner, and potentially moving the team to Boston. While the process seems to continue to be more and more complicated. As I said, we know a group that is run by former Milwaukee Bucks owner co owner Mark Lazari has submitted a bid for the franchise trying to potentially move the team to Hartford, Connecticut in what would be kind of a short or a short distance relocation. But according to sources that we have talked to, and we're not the only one who's reporting on this story, Houston very much is also an option to potentially, I guess, acquire the Connecticut sun via sale and then our possible relocation. There's just a lot, though, that seems to be sorted out here. It's not just a matter of finances. This is a complicated process because the Connecticut sun, their ownership group, like, they're trying to sell the team and maybe they just want the highest bidder. Maybe they want someone who is going to keep the team local. There's also a complicated process as it relates to relocation here because, you know, unlike just expansion, the WNBA cannot say. They cannot just pick the market and say, we're creating a team here, we're putting a team here. So the league and the NBA, they had some say in the expansion process. And it seems like, you know, their involvement in this process, they seem to have some kind of role. What specifically that role is I think is a little bit murky at this point. But yeah, there's a number of ownership groups that I just mentioned still in play here and a lot that is going to have to get sorted out over, you know, I guess, the foreseeable future.

[Zena Kaeda]

Yeah, it seems like the communication is also a huge factor in terms of telling boards of governors and all of the above. Kathy, my friend, I'm looking at you. What's going on, girl? We gonna figure this out. Okay, well, we're gonna take a break here and when we get back, we'll be joined by the women's sports lead at the Athletic and host the full time Meg Linehan. Don't go away.

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We are so excited now to be joined by the women's sports lead at the Athletic and host of Full Time, Meg Linehan. Meg, how are you?

[Madison H.]

I'm good, I'm good. It's been, I feel, a wild week in the world of women's sports for all the good and bad reasons.

[Zena Kaeda]

So, yeah, just across the board, you know, we're touching on that basketball aspect. We gotta get into the soccer world. You had a front row seat to the most recent CBA negotiations in the nwsl, the National Women's Soccer League. And that's really important considering there are other CBA negotiations happening right now in the women's basketball world. So your negotiations, NWSL, took place over the course of 2023 and 2024. Help us, for those that are trying to figure out the women's basketball, maybe we can learn something from the women's soccer world. What was that process like? What were some of the big things that the players were looking for and what was the pushback that they received?

[Madison H.]

Yeah, so I think just like to do a quick little history lesson on the NWSL collective bargaining agreements, because this was actually the second version of the CBA between the NWSL and the NWSL Players Association. The first one actually happened 2021 into 2022. It's like super tied up as well with the NWSL abuse scandal, which we obviously reported on extensively at the Athletics. So the players were coming out of that feeling very, A, empowered, B, mad, and C, like, ready to really fight for a whole bunch of things. But the first version of CBA negotiations were, I would say, like, actively pretty contentious. It was before the previous NWSL commissioner, Jessica Berman, had come in, had been h. They were dealing with an interim CEO and all of the teams of the NWSLs for the negotiations. And it sounds like the teams really didn't show up until the very end of that. But the players were actually ready to do a work stoppage back before 2022 NWSL preseason. It eventually gets across the line. They sign it at this Angel City game like, they're basically like fireworks. It's during the game on broadcast. And so that relationship kind of came back together. And then after the 2023 World Cup, NWSL commissioner now Jessica Berman, kind of went to the NWSL PA and said, like, hey, you know, things are kind of moving and shaking. We have some new media rights deals. Would you be willing to voluntarily bargain before the end of the term of this cba? Like, are there things you want? Because, like, maybe there are things that we want. And so this version of the CBA was not quite the battle. That doesn't mean that it was necessarily friendly, because I feel like any labor and owner negotiations aren't always the friendliest of process. But this time around, I think some of the big things were really driven by media rights deals in terms of revenue share was a big one. But, you know, for the nwsl, I think they were still kind of behind the curve when it came to free agency. To they abolished the NWSL draft. In this most recent version of the cba, they were looking for some more charter flights, making sure that trades wouldn't happen without player consent. Like, there were a lot of really basic things while still accomplishing some of the bigger foundational blueprint sort of things that I think the WNBA players might be looking to now, and that's especially rev share.

[Sabrina Merchant]

So I want to back up just real quick with the NWSLCBA part of it, because the fact that they went to the table, I think like, a year and a half before their present CBA expired is so interesting to me.

[Ben Pickman]

Right.

[Sabrina Merchant]

We always think that deadlines create action. And, you know, you see the WNBA and the PA really running up against a deadline here where CBA expires on October 31, and there's quite a lot of things to do before then, you know, like conduct a basketball season and like, maybe decide a Champion. So I'm just wondering, like, obviously the players got a lot of these provisions in the new CBA that would seem to suggest that they had a lot of leverage. But, like, why would the league come to the players so early in the process? Like, what were they getting out of it?

[Madison H.]

Yeah, I do think that there was a bet from the NWSL that when this current media rights deal is up. And also, just like, for context, the NWSL media rights deals in totality across four different providers are only about 60 million a year compared to the WNBA's 200 million a year. Right. So, like, the amount of money here is not nearly the same, but I do think the NWSL is kind of looking at what the WNBA and even MLS were getting with their media rights deals and being like, there's actually probably a lot more money on the table, and if we maybe lock them in at a lower rate on the player side for rev share, for salary cap, whatever it is, like, in the long run, if this deal runs through 2030, which it does, maybe in the long run, we make it out a little bit ahead. I do think that there was incentive for the end of B salt to get to the table before. You know, I'm so tired of the rocket ship metaphor, but, like, before that ship really takes off in a really meaningful way, and we can kind of lock them in at a rate that we feel comfortable with and the players feel okay about. And rather than, you know, I think in the WNBA case, the rocket ship is gone, and now the players are like, where's our money? We would like our money. Thank you.

[Zena Kaeda]

For those that couldn't see Meg is putting her hand out and patting it. Okay, I love that. And I think that this is a really good point of the timing in which they're now having to retroactively be like, hey, we contributed to the amount of money. We contributed to the rocket ship. We contributed to the fuel that allowed it to take off in this way, and we want our money. We know that in the 2020 CBA negotiation, which was signed in 2019 and went active in 2020, for the WNBA, it was really about getting one salary increase, which they were able to get, but it was about finding ways to have their humanity dignified. Right. And making sure that they could show up as athletes and do their job. What were some of the things that were in the NWSL CBA negotiations that maybe they were able to get from that perspective? And where do they land on the revenue share component? Because now, while the WNBA was able to get that done in 2020, they're now turning their focus back on revenue share. And I think that's the lesson that everyone wants to learn. How can we get in a good place with revenue share?

[Madison H.]

Yeah, I think let's stick with the humanity piece first, because again, NWSLCVA stuff was coming out of that abuse scandal. So there were a lot of safety things baked in. But I think the other piece of this that we really need to talk about is also the massive equal pay battle for the U.S. women's National Team, because that was also concurrent with their collective bargaining agreement alongside the men's national team. So you have this very public battle on the women's national team side, which gets boiled down into equal pay. But really, that lawsuit and the CPA negotiations were not just about money. They were about equal treatment. They were about hotels, travel, playing surfaces, medical staff, like, you name it, it was all baked in. And that stuff got settled much earlier than the payment piece of it. So there's been that battle. NWSL has always kind of lagged behind the U.S. women's National Team. And so there were a lot of lessons even between the US and the NWSL kind of saying, okay, we've got to secure more medical staff. We've got to secure people who are actually dedicated on staff to player care and being able to report problems when problems happen. And there needs to be reporting mechanisms for potential abuse. There were so many pieces to that humanity stuff. Also just the fact that so many players are moms getting more care around maternity leave, parental leave, whatever it is. So there were all of those pieces. Now, when it comes to revenue share, what's interesting about this is if you go into the nwslcba, it's actually like, I think three paragraphs long. It's really long. It's very short. Yes, it's very short because I went looking to be like, it's this huge thing and it's three paragraphs. But really what happened is they tied revenue share to the salary cap itself. And the salary cap in the NWCEL is, is in theory sticking around to maintain parity across the teams. But it basically guarantees that if a certain, you know, number is hit in terms of profit from the league, whether that comes via media revenue or sponsorship revenue, a certain percent, I think 10%, goes right back into the salary cap. So that, in theory, is going right to player salaries. The other provision that they added that's really important is that teams have a minimum spend on salary that they're going to have to hit. So they are required to pay players at a certain level. And so those two things are kind of like the promise of this revenue share, but really, like, we have yet to see this play out. It's more, this is a long term play from the players that they believe in the profitability of this league.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I do want to talk about the revenue share just because I think that's like the main sticking point for the WNBA at this point. I'm assuming there was no revenue share prior to the 2020.

[Madison H.]

Yeah, this is definitely a new development. I think, you know, in the past, and this is kind of the. The terrible part of the NWSL's history is that really the messaging around this league from owners, from Even, you know, U.S. soccer Federation, and this has been, in all of the investigations is the message is always like, well, you should be grateful that you have a place to play and that we're paying you right in general. And so it was a real reversal from the players to be like, actually, you should probably be pretty grateful that we're playing for you and you should be paying us for it. So there was, I think, that sense of the first CBA back in 2022, set them up in order to be able to fight for something that was resembling revenue share. But also, I think they even had to get the more basic thing of making sure that the players association had access to financial information from the league. And that's like the first number one thing that you need is actual financial transparency from the league and its teams in order to say, well, okay, we see the trends, we see what the sponsorship money is doing, we see, you know, how media rights are working out, and then when this deal is potentially up and what it could be valued at. Okay, now we've got the information that we can actually say, okay, we want revenue share and we want it at this level. And again, the league is maybe incentivized to come to the table, not just because they can control it in this setting, but also public opinion has played such a massive factor in every single labor dispute between women's soccer players and ownership across the board.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Financial transparency. What a concept, right? What a concept.

[Zena Kaeda]

Exactly. I'm so happy you mentioned public opinion, because we just saw WNBA All Star, we saw the campaign on the court, pay us what you owe us. And we know how much being judged in the court of public opinion can have an impact on these team owners on these leagues and the decisions that they make. And I do feel as if the US Women's national teams fight for equal pay. And you're Right. Publicly, we all thought it was just the money, as opposed to all of these other collective factors that impact the way they show up on the field. But I remember that campaign around the equal pay and making sure that the men's national team, that wasn't winning nearly at any level as to what the U.S. women's National Team is doing, wasn't getting paid more. But I just remember the appeal to the public, and I want to know, like, how much in that CBA fight from the US national team, women's national team, how much did appealing to the public help them? And what do you think about this pay us what you owe us campaign that the WNBA is doing, similarly to what USWNT did?

[Madison H.]

Yeah. So going again, a little history lesson. If you weren't around watching the U.S. women's National Team, like, right before COVID truly hit, they were in the middle of, like, one of the worst chunks of the battle against U.S. soccer for equal pay. And they came out to a game wearing their shirts on inside out, because that way, the US Crest was hiding, but you could still see the stars. They had won at World Cups, right? Like, complete baller move. Loved it. Like, it was just a perfect, perfect little moment of protest. And then they made T shirts off of it. So, again, like, this WNBA all star game, I think a lot of us who've been around in women's soccer, we're like, yeah, that's the playlist now, right? Like, you got to have a T shirt moment at this point, because also, you can then sell those to fans and raise more money to support your union. So it's a great play. But I do think that public opinion played such a massive role, and the CBA was a completely different process than the equal pay fight and the equal pay lawsuit, but they were so tied in terms of public sentiment, and that's where the needle really. I mean, like, a U.S. soccer Federation president had to leave the job because of what was going on with the U.S. women's National Team. And then you have Cindy Parlo Cohn, who's a former, you know, a 99er herself, come in as president, come to the table and be like, whoa, whoa. Why are we at this level that we're at right now? Like, we've got to settle this down.

[Zena Kaeda]

And.

[Madison H.]

And there was this real sense of, you know, they went out, they made a documentary lfg in terms of, like, showing the equal pay fight and all of the work and the way that CBA negotiations were playing out and all that kind of stuff. So I mean, you just can't really overrate how important public sentiment is when it comes to the. And the public sentiment is always going to be behind the players. But if you can harness it and have that united front and have a clear message that it's really easy for people to pick up on, then that's going to give you a tool in your toolbox as a union that the owners are just never really going to be able to access and it's going to force their hand a little bit.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah. I do wonder how long public sentiment will stay on the side of the athletes. Because you see, when there are work stoppages, fans get antsy, right? And you've seen this in men's sports. They just want people to come to the table, right?

[Madison H.]

Yes. And I think there is the extra layer of women, right. Like this was the whole thing during the equal pay fight. I could not go into the comments of any of my articles, articles on the US Women's national team because you would have a whole bunch of suddenly economics majors telling me the business of women's sports. But then I think for the wnba, there's then that extra level of this is black women, right? And that's gonna introduce a whole new level of terrible comments and opposite public sentiment. So like, yes, WNBA fans are gonna be harnessed. But then you've got this whole other section of society that's like, no, like the WNBA doesn't make any money. We've seen the same economic next dudes come out of the woodwork again and it's super tired and we know what the actual numbers are. But because, you know, the NBA has been affiliated with the WNBA and there's this sense of like, they've subsidized the league, blah, blah, blah. Like it's the same really tired old arguments that don't reflect the current reality of the moment. But I think from a WNBA point of view, compared to women's soccer, the race and gender stuff is just a million times worse.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I mean, there's so many places I want to follow up there, like 13 things I could think of. But I think where I kind of want to start with is like, you know, you mentioned WNBA and NBA, that relationship. Like, do you feel like part of the advantage the NWSL has is just like a lack of structural affiliation with the MLS at this point?

[Madison H.]

Yeah, I mean, they've never been affiliated with mls. Obviously one of the big problems of early nwsl, as we've discovered again through a lot of reporting, is that because they were subsidized by US Soccer. Actually, like, there were problems in terms of, you know, so it's really hard to stand up a league independently, completely independent, without some sort of structural support from an organization that's already existed and had the advantage of, like, building for decades. Right. But I think there is something different to the WNBA and the NBA's relationship as opposed to MLS never having really been involved in NWSL. So it's not seen as this, you know, little sister of the men's league that's been established since. Since 1994 started play in 1996, whereas we've had two failed leagues in the U.S. on the women's side, NWSL started in 2012 and has managed to survive to this point and will continue to survive. Right. Like, we're past those kind of really pointless, like, oh, will it make it past year three? Will it make it past year four? Whatever. But there has been such a weird, fractured history of women's soccer that NBC had its own problems, but nothing quite as specific as that wnba, NBA relationship and how that feels like it consistently undermines the women's product.

[Zena Kaeda]

It's an easy go to. For those economic bros. It's an easy pull of, oh, if you compare it. And people forget context. That word seems to just fly out of people's minds as soon as they insert all of the business acumen. Clearly, there's just not enough space in people's minds for both. But there was another thing that just came to mind as you were talking about the little sister of the league and the concept. And it made me think of Post Moves, the new podcast that Candace Parker and Aaliyah Boston just put out. And it very much felt big sister, little sister vibe when Candace Parker called out the All Stars this year for wearing the pants but you owe us shirts. But not having a quote, unquote, good game, a good All Star Game. And I thought that that was, like, it was very much a veteran move. And Aaliyah Boston was like, listen, we had to play on Tuesday, okay? We're not gonna completely exert ourselves at the All Star Game and then have a game in two days. Which I agree with her on that, on that front, but I could see what Candace was saying and that this was your opportunity to showcase your product and why you're. You are deserving, et cetera. Taking a note from Candace Parker, like, looking at what happened in the NWSL with their last CBA negotiations, or even looking at the U.S. women's National Team and what they did with their CBA Negotiations. Is there anything that you're like, if you're looking at the wnba, this is what you should do or you should not be doing as you make those negotiations and you're making that plea for more money, more respect, more support.

[Madison H.]

Yeah, I mean, I think it is really hard to copy the US model just because being at the 2019 World cup as a lot of like the most heightened part of that conflict was playing out. They're trying to win a World cup in France. Megan Rapinoe is also beefing with the President of the United States. At the exact same time you have these battles go like, you know, there was this like maybe clandestine meeting of them trying to like, see if they could come, come to an agreement during the World cup doesn't play out. So I think that has to stand as like a one on one, one on one experience. But then all of this stuff after for the US and also for the nwsl, you know, I think at least from that generation of US players who experience negotiations for both the league and the federation, winning always helps, right? So I will say it does not surprise me that Candace Parker looked at that All Star Game and was like, like, okay, you're, you know, you're making your case on your chest. You're saying it with your whole chest and then you're having that game. But then I think what we're probably going to get into in this very show is the player load across women's sports, right? Like, as money flows in, as there's more demand, as the growth explodes, players bodies are being put on the line. And that's like the very nature of what's at stake in a collective bargaining agreement discussion, right? Like, like these players are saying, this is the product, my body is the product and I have to protect myself and I have to make sure that I am healthy enough to play and make money. So like, there are these competing levels here and I can understand like an older generation being like, okay, well you've got to put everything on the line and the younger generation being like, well, why should I? It's really interesting to kind of navigate it through both, like the history of the women's soccer part and then also just this bigger conversation about what money flowing into women's sports is going to do to the growth of the league and what players are expected to do.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, well, let's talk about injuries then, because you mentioned obviously the load. The WNBA season keeps expanding. It was 20 games in 202032 and 2021. And now we're at 44 with talks of moving beyond that in soccer you have the international calendar just adding more and more content. Cups everywhere, like nations leagues and a summer cup in the nwsl. Right. Like the cadence of games is non stop. And anecdotally I feel like we've definitely seen a rise in injuries. Unfortunately the data is just not there to really analyze. I think what is happening from an injury perspective. I'm wondering from I guess a soccer point of view, how do you talk about injuries without the science really that needs to back up why these things are happening. What can be done preventatively, stop them? Like it's just so hard for me personally like without good information. And I'm sure that exists on the soccer side as well.

[Madison H.]

Yeah, I do think like there's been a real push. There's been a whole bunch of talk about like investment around this area. I feel like every single year, both like preseason end of season, we're talking about who's hurt, who's not going to a tournament, who's done their acl. Like that is even pre Covid. But I think it's really exploded post Covid. And you know, like if you Google women's soccer injuries, you're going to get a whole bunch of results around like it's like double the risk for women for their ACL or whatever it is. Right. But that's not necessarily like actually been researched really effectively. And so that's been a push over the past couple of years. I still don't think we work with great data, but it feels like, you know, Michelle Kang, who's the owner of the Washington Spirit and Leon in France, like who has this multi club conglomerate, has also started this kind of health and performance area of her company as well and has sunk many of millions of dollars into starting that research. So I think we're gonna get better on the soccer side. And I'll be curious to see how much of that actually then plays out into other sports. But I mean it's not a new problem. And, and the root cause to me really does kind of sit with player load in terms of again adding games to a calendar. That's, that's been a real sticking point for years. I mean you think about major tournaments, international duty, club duty, preseason, how much time they have off. Also we're all playing games in the United States. The amount of travel that you have to do, I mean WNBA travel like puts NWSL travel to shame too. Like how much time are these players spending on a plane and how are you counteracting that. So we don't even have good research around that and how to, like, train for that. And this is where a union comes in, I think, in terms of like, you know, codifying in a cba, what sort of medical resources and training resources and player load, you know, trying to limit it where you can. Depth of roster. Right. Like potentially expanding WNBA rosters, I think is very much on the table and wanted by players. But there's no. Like, all these things take money. That's always the answer. Everything takes money.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah. I think one thing that NWSL has on the WNBA is like a minimum professional standard in terms of just like sports performance staff. Right.

[Madison H.]

Yes. Yes.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah. Another thing for the cba.

[Zena Kaeda]

Right. Exactly. As you're talking, I'm just like, I am finding out that there's so many similarities but also significant differences between these leagues. And I'm also curious, I wonder how much they're talking behind the scenes, like these players. I don't know if you have any insight into that, but how much the leaders of the WNBPA have tapped into other leagues, maybe the soccer leagues, maybe other male leagues as well. But, like, do you know how much interaction has happened between these two, particularly worlds?

[Madison H.]

Yeah. I know that Megan Burke, who's the executive director of the NWCL pa, talks a lot with the executive director of the W. I can never remember the acronym because it's too many letters.

[Zena Kaeda]

Wwnbpa.

[Madison H.]

Yes, exactly. Thank you. Every time I had to go to type it A, like, this is stupid. I need to Google it. But there is definitely talk. I know for a while Mitch Purse and Natasha Cloud were definitely comparing notes, especially like post George Floyd. I think those leaks were talking a lot. Obviously there is one major connection now, both retired, but like Megan Rapinoe and Sue Bird, I think have helped those worlds cross casual in a lot of ways. That's really helpful. But I do think probably there could be more. More in terms of like, formal chatter between the two leagues, of like, you know, have a meeting and be like, this is what we fought for in the cba. These are the arguments we heard. This is how you could prevent it. But I do think that's happening at least to some extent behind the scenes with the two executive directors, which is also, I think, very encouraging to hear.

[Zena Kaeda]

Yeah. And I think it also, you know, transcends past the. The PAs, but also like the doctors, the people on staff.

[Madison H.]

Yeah, right.

[Zena Kaeda]

You're. You're talking about how do you counteract plane time. I'm sure that that's a factor that you can see across leagues and how much, you know, there's a lot of connectivity there between these trainers, these athletic trainers, these doctors, et cetera. And trying to combat that.

[Sabrina Merchant]

That's what's gonna make, just real quick, the Portland Thorns Fire partnership. So interesting if they're sharing, you know, a training space.

[Madison H.]

Mm.

[Zena Kaeda]

That's a great point.

[Madison H.]

Totally.

[Zena Kaeda]

That's a great point. And I wonder if that's gonna be more of a model moving forward of these women's sports teams linking up as opposed to the. I mean, we've only. We're seeing now the NBA teams with the WNBA teams, but who knows? Maybe the next batch of teams could change that a little bit more. Past Portland, I wanted to ask about, as we close this out, the growth, the boom in women's sports, particularly in the women's basketball world and the women's soccer world. And what's interesting is we just recently did a show about the contribution that Caitlin Clark, her class, has, you know, really given to women's basketball in terms of, like, giving it so many more eyeballs. We saw the transition from the NCAA world into the WNBA world, and it's just the boom has just been continuing. But the interesting thing is, I know Mallory Swanson, Safiya Smith, and Trinity Rodman. I know Sam Coffey. I know all these names that I did not know before. I'm not a huge women's soccer fan, but, like, trust me, I definitely paid attention to them in the Olympics. I paid attention to them in the World Cup. Like, how is it that nwsl, in your opinion, has gotten also a very similar boom in which I'm seeing little girls get pink and purple braids in their hair, just like Trinity. Right? Like, I. I'm seeing all of this, and I was curious what your opinion was on that.

[Madison H.]

Yeah, I mean, first of all, Trinity Rodman, to me, is currently, like, the star of the nbsl, right? And. And part of that is happening because Sophia Wilson, formerly Sophia Smith, and Mouse Watson are both pregnant. Right. So they're not playing this season. So Trinity's kind of got all the spotlight on her of that triple espresso line from the Olympics. But also, Trinity's been dealing with a back injury. Just came back, scored the most beautiful goal that she probably could have scored, like, at the tail, doesn't win the game for Washington. It was just like. Like, you want to talk about perfect storylines, like Trinity Rodman coming back from this lingering back injury, saying how she was, like, gaslighting herself about how much she was in Pain and how she had to become a better player to understand her own body. Again, we're hitting on all of these themes, crying in the post game about how that was the most difficult. Like, you could not write a better script for her return. So Trinity Rodman just, like, put her in her own bucket, right? Like, she is kind of the number one American star right now, I think, and is starting to, like, truly transcend. But what has been really interesting from a soccer point of view is, like, there is no central figure like a Caitlin Clark. We've also been watching it for MLS with Messi coming to Inter Miami, right? So, like, there's these two kind of direct parallels. The closest we've seen as of late is triple espresso in the Olympics. And then again, Trinity Rodman. What's really interesting, though, is for me, who's been around the sport for a really long time, like, I even go back to the 99ers, right? The 1999 World cup being this big transformative event that changed the sport in America, but also kind of saddled the sport with this idea of the girl next door, right? Like Mia Hamm, polite, demure, all of these things, right? And then you get of the 2011, like, the modern edition of the U.S. women's National Team, Alex Morgan and Megan Rapinoe, who kind of both are still maybe kind of in that mold for a while, and then transcend women's soccer in their own ways and in kind of two. Both complementary but very different ways. And now we're in that middle of a generational change, right? So Trinity's on the rise. Alex Morgan has retired. Megan Rapinoe has retired. And so this has been, I think, one of the big questions facing women's soccer in America, the NWSL in particular, is how do you build a star? And how do you build a star that transcends the league and brings people in? This is actually what I wrote. I do a State of the League column every year. And my State of the League was like, the league needs to figure out what it wants to be in the US and it's looking to the WNBA right now and seeing all of this success and seeing the Caitlin Clark effect and going like, oh, boy, we sure wish we had that. Right? And. But I think there's, like, there are blessings and curses to having that one transcendent figure that brings both good and frequently unhinged attention to the W. And so you can build something, I would hope, in a sustainable way, with the end of your cell is just the challenges like, does the end of your know how to do that and is it going to do it correctly? And that's always the question that I'm obsessed with in my coverage.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah. And we're going to have to come talk to you later about, like, the racial dynamics of all that at play because, you know, you think about Caitlin Clark being the face of a league that is predominantly black. And now you look at the nwsl, which is becoming increasingly more diverse and what that means.

[Madison H.]

Yes, that's a whole other podcast we don't have time for that.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Already came to mind as Brad of Trinity and Caitlin.

[Zena Kaeda]

Oh, right.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah. Well, thanks so much, Meg, for the time and talking about, you know, all these similarities and touchstones between the NWSL and wnba. And as we said, we'll definitely have to have you back to explore these, these parallels even further.

[Madison H.]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Zena Kaeda]

Thank you.

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[Madison H.]

Madison H. You know, I thought it.

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Check it [e-mail] pet.

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[Zena Kaeda]

It is Friday, so you know what that means. It is time to set your screens. Presented by BetMGM. BetMGM. Get in on the excitement at BEMGM with any sport, no sweat token. If you don't win your wager, you'll get a stake back in bonus bets. All right, guys, I'm going to start the set the screen this time and I'm going with one of the teams that you guys laid out beautifully for me, the Aces. I'm keeping up with everything. Aces. All things coming up. Aces for the Aces right now. Trying to get all my gambling bets puns in here, but really seven and three in the last 10. They're playing phenomenally. They're starting to click. They're starting to get their identity back and I think that that's really important, especially as they try to move up the standings. They try to get home court advantage again. How weird is it to think about the Aces in the playoffs without home court advantage? We know it's just a little bit off for them. So Vegas Aces are taking on the Phoenix Mercury and they're going against each other on Friday night. So that's what I'm going to be watching tonight, I guess, at the time that the show comes out. Sabrina, what about you?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Well, tonight we also have the WNBA's first regular season game ever in Canada, the dream takeover baby in Vancouver, which should be pretty fun. The Toronto tempo, bunch of activations there. So it's, you know, Tampa are gonna be Canada's team and I guess they're part of this whole thing. It's an Atlanta Dream home game, which is very strange in Vancouver, but hey, you know whatever works to get the WNBA to be playing in that city, but no more than that. Like the Dream have been playing really well. You know we talked about a team earlier in this show that won five games in the Dream are also on a five game winning streak even without Jordan Canada, which really sucks that Jordan Canada is not in the Canada game. But well done. Dream have been playing phenomenally. Storm on the other hand have lost six in a row. Just a real stretch of bad close losses in a row. So I'm just curious if the Storm can figure this out or if the Dream get another win over them in three days.

[Ben Pickman]

And I guess I will just take kind of a slight combination of the two games that you guys said. I will take the Phoenix Mercury playing the Seattle Storm on Sunday afternoon or Sunday evening at 6 o' clock Eastern time because of all the reasons that you kind of mentioned put together. We know we have significant games on Friday night involving Phoenix potentially falling down the standings to Las Vegas depending on that result. Sabrina just mentioned it. The Storm are on a slide and they're trying to stay in playoff contention. We'll see what Friday night means for Sunday's game because Phoenix against Seattle, two teams who again very much trying to position themselves as best they can in the playoff push and it should be a good one, a different one because you know, New York, Minnesota, that's also on the docket Saturday afternoon. Set your screen at that 2pm Saturday CP on CBS. But like we've also seen that one and Fee and Stewie aren't gonna play. So give me some more excitement on the Sunday evening slate.

[Zena Kaeda]

I'm completely with you. It's so sad. We're getting all those great rematches of last year's best WNBA Finals what feels like ever and star players are not available. But these are great games to set your screen to. Hope you guys will be tuning in, but that is all we've got for you today. We will be back on Monday with more WNBA content as you know and until then if you haven't followed us, I don't know what you're doing, homie. I don't know what you're doing. But go ahead. This is your opportunity now. Follow subscribe Wherever you get your podcast, tell your friends to check us out. Share it with folks. That is called real love. That's what you do when you're sharing it with folks. And of course head on over to our partner Yahoo Sports hub for more [e-mail] womens-sports on behalf of the Athletic Ben Sabrina I'm Zena Keda thanking you for listening and we'll see you next time.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Time.

[Zena Kaeda]

No Offseason is hosted by Zena Ka with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producers are Andrea B. Scott and Cashes Fleming. Our theme music is by Marcus Bagala. Monica Compton is our video editor. Shannon Ryan is managing editor of women's basketball at the Athletic. Jesse Burton is our head of Audio and Tim McMaster is Director of Audio Operations. Ratios Comcast Business High 5 hotline I.

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[Zena Kaeda]

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[Zena Kaeda]

Guaranteed rate applies to monthly service charge excluding taxes and fees. Other restrictions apply.

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