← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
Who’s Safe, Who’s Going? WNBA Expansion Mock Draft
01:03:50
Loading summary
Transcript189 lines
- [00:00]
Sabrina Merchant
With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking. With Capital One.
- [00:07]
Ben Pickman
If he were here, he wouldn't just.
- [00:09]
Sabrina Merchant
Tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about. In a good way.
- [00:22]
Ben Pickman
What's in your wallet?
- [00:24]
Sabrina Merchant
Term supply see capitalone.com bank capital1na member FDIC.
- [00:32]
Ben Pickman
Group health insurance can put businesses in a tough position with rising costs and plans that don't fit everyone's needs.
- [00:39]
Sabrina Merchant
Now a new form of employer coverage.
- [00:41]
Ben Pickman
Called an ICHRA or ICHRA can help ICHRAs make costs predictable with stable pre tax contributions. And they make health plans personal because.
- [00:50]
Zena Kaeda
Each employee can pick any plan and.
- [00:52]
Ben Pickman
Carrier that meets their needs.
- [00:54]
Sabrina Merchant
Get coverage you control.
- [00:56]
Zena Kaeda
Learn more at ambetterhealth.com/icra. Guys, thanks for helping me carry my Christmas tree. Zoe. This thing weighs a ton. Drew Ski, lift with your legs, man.
- [01:06]
Sabrina Merchant
Santa.
- [01:07]
Ben Pickman
Santa, did you get my letter?
- [01:08]
Zena Kaeda
He's talking to you, Bridges. I'm not. Of course he did.
- [01:12]
Sabrina Merchant
Right, Santa?
- [01:13]
Ben Pickman
You know my elf Drew Ski here. He handles the nice list.
- [01:16]
Zena Kaeda
And elf, I'm six' three. What everyone wants is iPhone 17 and at T mobile. You can get it on them. That center stage front camera is amazing for group selfies. Right, Mrs. Claus?
- [01:25]
Ben Pickman
I'm Mrs. Claude Claus, much younger sister.
- [01:28]
Zena Kaeda
And AT T Mobile there's no trade in needed when you switch.
- [01:31]
Ben Pickman
So you can keep your old phone or give it as a gift.
- [01:33]
Sabrina Merchant
And the best part, you can make.
- [01:34]
Ben Pickman
The switch to T mobile from your.
- [01:36]
Zena Kaeda
Phone in just 15 minutes. Nice. My side of the tree is slipping.
- [01:39]
Ben Pickman
Kimber. The holidays are better. AT T Mobile switch in just 15.
- [01:43]
Zena Kaeda
Minutes and get iPhone 17 on us.
- [01:45]
Sabrina Merchant
With no trade in needed.
- [01:46]
Ben Pickman
And now T Mobile is available in.
- [01:48]
Sabrina Merchant
US cellular stores with 34 monthly bill credits for well qualified customers plus tax.
- [01:52]
Ben Pickman
And $35 vice connection charge credits and imbalance due if you pay off earlier. Cancel financing agreement. 256 gigs $830.
- [01:56]
Zena Kaeda
Eligible for it in a new line.
- [01:57]
Ben Pickman
$100 plus a month plan with auto fees required.
- [01:59]
Zena Kaeda
Check out 15 minutes or less per line.
- [02:00]
Ben Pickman
Visit t mobile.com.
- [02:17]
Zena Kaeda
Hello everyone and welcome to no offseason. I'm Zena Kaeda.
- [02:20]
Sabrina Merchant
I'm Sabrina Merchant.
- [02:22]
Ben Pickman
And I'm Ben Pickman.
- [02:23]
Zena Kaeda
And today on the show, who will the Portland Fire and the Toronto Tempo select in the expansion draft? While we wait for new WNBA CBA to be finalized, we're going to dive into how these franchises might be building their rosters. We're going to break down the possibilities, the strategy and the rules behind our mock expansion draft. But first, it's still deal or no deal trying to figure out what's going on with the WNBA CBA negotiations. And we've got some fresh details coming out of that conversation. I love, every time I see other outlets seeing, you know, Ben Pickman as the source, Sabrina Merchant, the Athletic as the source, we're getting all the deets, guys, and I love that we're being able to help you guys break this down in terms of what's going on on both sides, what's been included in some of these proposals that have been passed around. The league and the players union have exchanged a few words, they've exchanged a few proposals, and we finally have some details about how this negotiation could set the table for the league moving forward. So, Ben, tell us the latest about the proposal presented from both sides.
- [03:27]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, so I'm just going to set the timeline and then we'll dive into some of the specifics we reported on because both of these sides, as you said, Zena, have been exchanging proposals consistently throughout this process. And you know, they have been throughout these extension delays periods. Right. They continue to exchange proposals from October 30 to the deadline this past weekend. And they have continued and will continue to do so going forward. So the reporting that we reported on, published earlier this week on Wednesday, stems really from a proposal that the league sent the players union over the weekend. And the players union, we know counter proposed sent their proposal back to the league on Tuesday evening. So just setting the stage for that timing. So in the proposal and what we reported on, there was a lot included. There was new information about revenue sharing and what the league's proposal is in terms of a salary system that looks a lot more like what what the players want, at least broadly in principle, than what the league has currently, which is a fixed salary system. We report on information as it relates to a draft combine that is new. Right. The league is proposing to hold a draft combine in the offseason. We can get into details there. We know that the wnbpa, and they've been consistent about that, has proposed eliminating the core designation, the proverbial franchise tag in the league. The PA again wants to shorten rookie scale contracts. The league wants to expand the season footprint a little bit. Right. Currently, the WNBA can start camps as early as April 1st. They now are proposing to have the option to start camps as early as mid March. We have information on non birthing parental leave, on housing, on minimum standards, retirement, mental health. All of that is kind of part of some of the reporting. Again, these are just 10 to 12 items in a proposal. You know, the eventual CPA will be hundreds of pages. So what we have again is just a small excerpt of it. But yeah, it's a bunch of new information about topics that we've heard some things about and some that we have not heard anything about so far.
- [05:25]
Zena Kaeda
Okay. Okay. That feels like a lot of give and take. A lot of just very opposite sides of the spectrum, it feels like. Sabrina, let's go into the details, starting with some of the proposals that the WNBA put forth. Because I think that's the biggest part, that everyone. That's on everyone's minds are these numbers coming out. Even when we first started, these conversations started with like a million and then it was like we've heard the average of 500,000. I'm confused already. Please help me understand.
- [05:55]
Sabrina Merchant
Right. So the broad issue at play between the union and the WNBA over these entire negotiations, basically ever since the WNBPA opted out in 2024 of this present CBA, is what sort of revenue salary structure would govern the next phase of the wnba. And what the players seemingly want is access to all of the revenue that the league earns and a share of all of that revenue. And the WNBA is trying to figure out how to apportion as much of the revenue as possible to the players while also maintaining enough revenue for its owners to reinvest into the business. This is again the words of Kathy Engelbert at the Finals this year. So what we've seen from this latest proposal is a structure that is kind of similar to what the WNBA currently has, a little bit different. Essentially, they've created a chunk of revenue, what they're calling this revenue metric that doesn't necessarily include all of the revenue the league brings in. So it's some combination of media rights, team revenue, jersey sales, tickets, etc. But not again, not all of it. And they are giving 50% of that revenue to the players. So on some senses, it's exactly what the players are hoping for. It's a 50% revenue share. And that revenue is going to be tied to increasing the salary cap over the life of the current cba. And in some senses, it's not exactly what the players are hoping for because it is not access to all of the revenue that the league brings in. I mean, I think about this Kelsey Plum quote that she made back at All Star. Whereas we want a piece of the whole pie, not a piece of part of the pie. Right. And when they've designed this revenue metric, there is also a cost of revenue that is taken off the top before the 50% split occurs. And that cost of revenue from what we've heard from some sources, is prohibitively high relative to what the players are hoping for. So there is technically a revenue sharing mechanism that is going to be tied to salaries, that is going to increase salaries over the life of the deal. And we've talked about how these salaries. Average player compensation is projected to start at 500,000 in this year, 1 of the CBA in 2026, which if you think about where the current salary structure is, the minimum is about 65,000. The maximum is 250,000. An average of 500,000 in player compensation is significantly higher. Right. So there's a lot of gains that have been made there. But it's also a matter of does this structure adequately capture what the players are hoping to receive going forward? And one number that suggests that maybe it's not what they're hoping to capture is that we've been told that the share of the total revenue that the league brings in the players would be getting less than 15% of that in the first year of the deal, and that would be going down over the life of the cba. So you think about how much other leagues get right. And we don't want to make a direct comparison to men's leagues because those are in different financial positions. But we've heard that the WNBA players currently make less than 10% of total revenue in the current CBA. So if they're getting to somewhere between 10 and 15%, again, a jump maybe not exactly what they were hoping for in this massive transformational new agreement.
- [08:48]
Zena Kaeda
And the thing about it is is that all of this is happening with a similar level of ambiguity that the last CBA had in terms of what numbers are included in that total revenue share and figuring out how that is actually going to be disseminated. Oh, this is an LOL moment, I'm sure, for the wnbpa, Ben, in terms of what they were hoping and where they wanted to land in terms of taking care of their players. Thinking about their side, the players union side of what they put forth in the proposal, what were some of the things that they wanted to highlight, highlight, and what was their reaction to these numbers that were shared?
- [09:25]
Ben Pickman
I mean, first, I think there is an acknowledgment that the salary structure that the league has proposed delivers on this idea that the players have pushed for on salary structure, being on revenue, focused around revenue rather than being fixed. Right. So in that way, that is a step where there is still a hang up is what exactly is in that shareable chunk of revenue with the players, right. So when you think about what Sabrina just mapped out, you have those two numbers, the less than 15% and that 50%. And so the question is, what is really being shared? Right? A hang up persists about what makes up the segment of league revenue that will be shareable with players and then what percentage is shared? Right. And so there are a lot of expenses as Sabrina mapped out. Charter flights, first class hotels, arena costs, you know, security. There are all these things. And Sabrina then talked about all these revenue streams and it's just trying to figure out what is included in this revenue and revenue growth metric that the league is saying we will share specifically, you know, on the record. Neko Gumake, the WNBPA president, told me that she feels like at this point, quote, I don't feel like there's any cultivation of a culture of trust. She said, we don't feel value in these talks as they stand today. She added, I feel like we've been heard but not listened to. And I'm hoping that changes in this 40 day extension because what we want to do is get a good deal done. So that paints a little bit of a picture about, you know, where the top person at the PA at the players union, how they feel about the state of these talks. There are some areas, and we can get into it too, where the two sides do seem to be, you know, not maybe not agreed upon in writing about clauses. But on the same page we'll say, right, there are some areas in which there are significant gaps and some in which the gaps of what they're trying to negotiate are much smaller.
- [11:23]
Zena Kaeda
Okay, wait, let me get back to those gaps then. That where there is more space in between these two groups because we're also hearing the revenue portion and the salary portion was one big portion of it that fans in the general space are hearing. But we're also seeing things like housing being taken away, the expansion of the season. And we know that that's been a big sticking point of there's no room to move the season unless you're trying to give the WNBA season exclusivity over these players. So let's talk a little bit about some of those elements where there is a little bit more space and then we can get to the things where they're, they're on the same page, maybe in the same chapter of a book at least.
- [12:02]
Ben Pickman
So on the housing front, the league and their most recent proposal has removed team issue housing from its proposal. So currently in the deal that is still active, players are currently provided team housing or a monthly housing stipend. And the amount that they are given is usually a few thousand dollars, around less than $3,000. And it depends on the market where you live. For example, if you live in New York City, you know, your housing stipend is nearly $3,000. If you live in Las Vegas, your housing stipend is closer to $1,200. This past season. Depends on where you live. That impacts what you get. The league is saying, you know, we're no longer going to provide team issued housing from its proposals. You know, one of the reasons could be if we're going to pay you so much more money, should we also then include your housing? I think that would probably be their argument. Schedule you mentioned as well, Zena. So currently, as I said, the league can start training camps as early as April 1st. Now, they haven't ever done that because of some of the reasons you mapped out. You have the Final Four that is literally still going on after April 1st. You have the draft, which does not occur until, you know, eight days, usually after the Final Four concludes in mid April. So they're saying, hey, we want to potentially have that option, explore that option to start camps even earlier. It seems like that is just for. We're kind of in an exploration phase. There's not that many specifics from what we can tell about, you know, would they definitively do this? However, if you sign a contract that says, hey, the league has the right to move, you know, the season up a certain amount, well then nothing really precludes them in the future from doing so. And that's to say maybe they would do so over the course of the terms of disagreement, or maybe it lays the foundation, the groundwork to do so in a future agreement. I think about the NFL context for this scheduling question, right? When the league and the players agree to have the possibility to extend the season or add a regular season game. Well, they didn't immediately do that then and there, but over time they have extended the season and now the NFL footprint is what it is. Yeah. The same question is with this draft combine, right? So that is another new element. The WNBA does not have an official like, you know, league run combine currently like the NBA does. And the league is saying hey, we want to put in a draft combine. Again, not a ton of details about the specifics how that would even fit in the schedule because like we said, the college season and the college tournament is going on, but it gives the league the option to hold that event. And similar to the NBA's draft combine or CBA draft combine rules that are negotiated between the NBA and the NBPA in that collective bargaining agreement, to be eligible for the draft, invited players for the combine would have to participate. So if you get invited to play in the combine, to participate you have to go unless you have an excuse absence to be eligible or else you would risk having your salary reduced. So big gaps there as well.
- [14:59]
Sabrina Merchant
I think, like a lot of the proposals that we've heard just point to a bigger schedule problem with what the WNBA is facing. Because, you know, you think about the March training camp start date and that, you know, is during the college season, right? And you think about how so many players who are drafted, like they're just fighting for a roster spot. And how are you supposed to fight for a roster spot if you don't have a time to attend training camp and prove that you deserve to be on the roster? So it's like not even just, you know, the number one pick, like, it's different for Paige Becker. She knows she's going to make the Dallas wing. She can come in three weeks after the season starts and still join the team. But like, if you're a Saniya Fagan or you know, somebody else drafted in the second round, you're literally fighting for your spot on the roster and that opportunity goes away. If you're in training, you're not able to participate in training camp because you're still playing in your college season. And that's another problem with the combine of it. All, right? Like, if you're, I don't think they're like necessarily hoping to see players play 5 on 5 at the combine, but they just want measurements, right? And it seems like there's, I don't know, maybe an easier way to accomplish that than like mandating everyone attend a certain physical event that is again, probably going to be during their college seasons. Like, there's a reason why the draft combine doesn't exist right now because as Ben mentioned, there's an eight day gap between the Final Four and the WNBA draft. And like, when are players supposed to show up? Right? And are you going to mandate that players internationally show up because, like, they're in their Euroleague competition still in European cup competitions. And are you going to have different rules between American players and international players. And like, that's already seems like a point of contention because, you know, international players can come over at 19 and domestic players have to be 22 when they get into the draft. So like all of these calendar issues that exist for the WNBA that are unique to this league because it is, you know, kind of an off season league relative to other sports calendars. And that kind of gets into the housing point of it because, yeah, maybe on the surface, you know, you're losing a $2,500 stipend every month over six months and that's like $15,000 and that is an expense that you can make up with your salary. And the teams are saying, hey, we are adding money to practice facilities and we're, you know, getting charter flights. Like we need to take some expenses off the table. Nominally that kind of makes sense. But if you were a player who is Getting drafted on April 13th and your camp starts or it's already started and you need to find a place to live, that calendar, like that timeline doesn't make a lot of sense. Like, are you supposed to live in a hotel while you search out an apartment building? Like, you don't know where you're going to go until right before camp starts. So just the logistics of it are really challenging to accomplish. And you think about how the WNBA is staffed or like its player pool, so many players are on replacement contracts or seven day contracts. And it's like, are you supposed to find an apartment for seven days or just put the bill for your own hotel for seven days? Especially if you're going back and forth, you know, between like playing games on the road or playing games at home. And so there's all these little details that housing covers that just makes it easier to accommodate for the player experience that I think the fact that this is the kind of money that the team and the WNBA want to take off the table just seems a little silly to me because in the grand scheme of things, this is a much smaller expense than charter flights. But to take it off, it just suggests a lack of understanding of where the players are and how to meet them and to make their experience a little bit easier as they transition into playing in the wnba. And it's not even just rookies. Like if you come from Europe, right, and you're playing for Fenair and you're in Turkey one week and then you're in the WNBA another week, like that housing situation is a little complicated. I'm sure people don't all have houses that they've purchased in their market. Right. Because you're moving teams and like, if you're not going to be living there for six months at a time, maybe you're not buying in that area. Right. The way the WNBA works relative to other leagues, the fact that you're a little bit more itinerant than other leagues, it seems logical that the league would cover housing because it's easier to accomplish at bulk than it is for individual players to find their specific housing. So that, to me, is just a weird thing to take off the table when, again, marginally, yeah, maybe the players aren't losing so much money from the housing stipend, but the convenience, to me seems really important.
- [18:54]
Zena Kaeda
I think that's one of the questions that when someone hears WNBA is taking away housing, it's like, well, do other leagues provide housing? Is that something that's normal? Like, there is. Even if you have the money in terms of. Even if the players get an adequate amount of dollars to meet their salary expectations, the flux of the WNBA season is such that if you're coming in for a training camp and you don't know if you're going to make that team, you don't know if you're going to get a salary that can afford a particular lease or a particular, you know, lifestyle at a particular market, you can't go sign a lease. You've got to, you know, you got to spend dollars to get your hotel basically paying out of your pocket, hoping that you make the team. I mean, everything you're saying, Sabrina, not thinking of the player experience, not thinking the mindset that you have to be in when you're trying to make a league as cutthroat as the wnba. I'm really happy you broke that down, especially from a person perspective. There was an article recently, a few months ago, maybe on the Athletic, about NFL players being waived and what that experience is like. And I'm like, have you heard about the W? It's tough, okay? There's people buying houses, getting leases, and then finding out that they're being waived or that they're changing markets. This is. This is an interesting one. Okay, well, let's get to the things where they are on the same page on. And I think it has to do with the standardization across the board of how players are cared for at the team level. Tell me more about that, Ben, in terms of, like, the facility standards and some of the staffing requirements.
- [20:27]
Ben Pickman
Well, I would say it seems like there have been productive conversations about team staffing requirements. I E like you need a certain number of strength coaches or athletic trainers or doctors, you know, kind of staff that are integral to the player experience. Where there still though seems like there are gaps about the requirements that the players union wants versus what the league wants as it relates to private practice facilities or locker, private locker room and training spaces. Because you have to think about that not every team currently has a private practice facility or a locker room that is dedicated, you know, at all moments and all times to the WMDA team that we're saying, you know, the league has not engaged with the union's proposal by some uniform team standards across practice facilities, including private locker rooms or private weight rooms. So yeah, that's an example of where there again is some agreement on the staffing front. There seems to be less consensus right now on minimum facility standards. All of this goes under the umbrella of it is a negotiation, very much a live negotiation, a living breathing negotiation. And it's still I would say, you know, we've been doing this for a while. The players union opted out or announced the intention to opt out of the agreement last October. Like so it's been more than a year. But we're going to have to wait and see where the compromises are on all of these matters. I think back just not to circle back to housing in the NBA cba, you mention it, they don't provide housing to players. But if you are traded mid season, what is it you get? 90 days, Sabrina, for a player who's traded. Right? So that is an example of you know, the team provides hotels for 90 days. Maybe in the WNBA, CBA when they put this agreement in, a player who signs a seven day hardship is provided a hotel for seven days or ten days. That's pure speculation.
- [22:11]
Zena Kaeda
America does it, right?
- [22:14]
Ben Pickman
I'm just like throwing out as like that certainly seems like a possibility of where this could end up. So I wouldn't take anything that is proposed now is like definitively in the contract other areas of agreements. I mean it seems like both of the league and union, they agree that we want to have some possible benefits for retiring or retirement players potentially in the form of a payment to players with a certain number of years of service. How many years, how much money, we don't exactly know. That seems to be an open topic of conversation. It seems like there will be something put in for non birthing parental leave that is something that is not in the agreement. Currently unclear how much paid leave non birthing parents could get or would get but it seems like they will eventually put that into the cba. That is a clause that is not currently in the agreement. Those are just some of the areas where there is a little bit more. It seems like we'll see some change that both sides can agree some change.
- [23:08]
Zena Kaeda
Will occur on, and that's cool. That's definitely a stair stepper from the last cba, right? Being able to get fertility treatment covered now, being able to make sure that if you're not the birthing parent, you still have some sort of support and the ability to be with your family while you're expanding it and growing it. Okay, so everything that we've heard that the PA wanted to do from the last cba, you can see these priorities are lining up. Wnba, their priorities of making sure that they grow the league and save some dollars, save some coins. Those priorities are lining up and this conversation will continue to happen. Ben, Sabrina, we appreciate you being in the trenches for us and keeping us up to date with this. All right, guys, let's try and turn our attention to something that also will be in the cba. An expansion draft. Yeah, we got two teams coming to the WNBA next year, and they don't have any players and they won't be able to select them until the CBA is put in place. Well, unless you're talking to Ben and Sabrina, they help some things out. Let's talk about it on the other side of this break.
- [24:13]
Sabrina Merchant
With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking.
- [24:19]
Ben Pickman
With Capital One, if he were here.
- [24:22]
Sabrina Merchant
He wouldn't just tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep, even on weekends, it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way.
- [24:35]
Ben Pickman
What's in your wallet?
- [24:37]
Sabrina Merchant
Terms apply. See capitalone.com Bank Capital One NA Member FDIC.
- [24:45]
Ben Pickman
Hey, it's Adam Grant from Ted's podcast Work Life, and this episode is brought to you by. ServiceNow. AI is only as powerful as the platform it's built into. That's why it's no surprise that more than 85% of the Fortune 500 companies use the ServiceNow AI platform, while other platforms duct tape tools together. ServiceNow seamlessly unifies people, data workflows, and AI connecting every corner of your business. And with AI agents working together autonomously, anyone in any department can focus on the work that matters Most. Learn how ServiceNow puts AI to work.
- [25:19]
Sabrina Merchant
For people@servicenow.com.
- [25:23]
AI agents are everywhere, automating.
- [25:25]
Zena Kaeda
Tasks and making decisions at machine speed.
- [25:29]
Sabrina Merchant
But agents make mistakes. Just one rogue agent can do big damage before you even notice. Rubrik Agent Cloud is the only platform that helps you monitor agents, set guardrails and rewind mistakes so you can unleash agents, not risk. Accelerate your AI transformation@rubrik.com that's R U.
- [25:51]
Zena Kaeda
B R I K.com.
- [25:59]
Okay, so the 2026 WNB off season could see an unprecedented degree of player movement with nearly every veteran player poised to enter. Basically everyone out of outside of rookies and like two players, I think it's Lexi Brown and Kalani Brown. Not sure if there's any connection to the Browns being like, let's line it up this way, but outside of that, everyone has the opportunity to pretty much move, it feels like so the Toronto Tempo and Portland Fire are going to try and construct their rosters through the expansion draft. With all of this movement happening, and while the Leeds Brightest stars are likely to remain with their current teams protected, of course the depth of available talent should not be underestimated. I'm telling you guys, as I read your article about this mock draft, I was like, dang, she wouldn't be protected. This person would be free to go and walk somewhere else like. But that is the beauty of the wnba. There are so many players that could absolutely be pivotal members of an inaugural roster, and I think you guys broke that out beautifully in your article. But before we go into that, you all have this expansion mock draft up on the site and there is a question of it's early. There's still no CBA set that sets the rules for an expansion draft. So what made you guys want to put this together and release it out to the public?
- [27:19]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, this is about the time last year that the Golden State Valkyries had their expansion draft. So we just figured everyone out about expansion. This is, you know, when it could have happened if a CBA had been agreed to. But yeah, as you noted, Dino, like just the fact that there are so many rules that are collectively bargained about expansion and about how free agency works and player movement. It was a real hypothetical here to figure out what teams could theoretically do in terms of protecting players and how would the order work and what sort of contract statuses could they pick up. And we made similar assumptions last year that all ended up being exactly right because it was under the same CVA and there are expansion draft procedures that are listed. It's a little bit different with two teams, obviously, so there are some rules here that when the expansion draft happens, if the expansion draft happens, don't expect it to look exactly like this. I just want to put that out there away. This is our best guess based on what happened in previous multi team expansion drafts, which to be clear was the early 2000s. So a little bit of a different era, but again, educated guess. And I think the ideas that we came up with in terms of how teams would protect players and how they would want to build their new rosters are still worth exploring even if the exact setup isn't going to happen.
- [28:27]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah, it's worth noting that the last expansion draft was before the Valkyries was the Atlanta dream back in 2008. And the CBA that was active during the Golden State Valkyries expansion draft basically was like you could choose whatever rules you want for the expansion draft and they followed basically the same outline of that 2008. So I can imagine they might have looser language allowed in the cba. And this is going to be interesting in terms of the creativity around two teams drafting and you guys created your own rules. But before we. Again, before we dive into too deep into it, I'm very curious. Ben, help us understand some of the rules around the expansion draft. What do you have to consider when you're having two teams versus just one? Some of the rules that might have been left over that could be implemented in this new CBA around core designation. How does that impact how you go about? Because let me tell you right now, the whole core UFA I already know. I've seen the comments. People are confused. Break it down for us.
- [29:28]
Ben Pickman
Sure. So we followed not the 2008 or the Golden State Valkyries expansion draft format, but we really looked to the 2000 WNBA expansion draft as a model for our setup because that was, as Sabrina mentioned, the last time the WNBA had a multi team expansion draft. And so what happened basically in that draft is that teams initially could predict a certain number of players for the first part of the draft, the first half of the draft or so, and then they were given the opportunity to protect one additional player for the second half of the draft, depending again on how the first half went. So we followed that model using a clawback system, I guess, or clawback protection. They were actually allowed to have three.
- [30:10]
Sabrina Merchant
Additional players during the second part, but we thought that was a little prohibitive for this. Wow.
- [30:15]
Ben Pickman
So for us, we said for the first six rounds, each team can protect up to five players. Then for the final six rounds, each team can protect an additional player. Okay, so 12 total rounds and each of the existing 13 franchises can only have one player selected from their team, you know, in the first six rounds and in the final six rounds. So, you know, the Golden State Valkyries, they would lose up to two players in this exercise. They would lose up to two players. So the Tempo couldn't take a Dallas Wings player first, and then the Fire couldn't then take a Dallas Wings player second. Right. Right away, because that would again, be again in the first six rounds. So that was really the core framework that we operated under. We said that the Tempo and the Fire can select as many unrestricted free agents as they please. So there's so many unrestricted free agents, they can select any of them, but they can only offer the core designation to one of them. And again, the core designation, for all intents and purposes is the WNBA's franchise tag. Teams can apply the core designation to up to one player during free agency and give them then the opportunity, if they apply the designation, to sign a one year max contract. So you can give that to a player and you would give them, in theory, a max contract. Or you can then negotiate a new deal. And in the current cba, the core can only be applied, I guess, what, two times to any player at most.
- [31:48]
Sabrina Merchant
It's a little complicated. Like, it can only exist for a maximum of two seasons. So if you core a player and then they sign a three year deal, then they've played the core for three seasons and you can't core them again. So it's a little complicated. But technically, if you core them once, they only sign a one year deal, then you can core them again because they haven't played two seasons under a core deal. And we talked about all these CBA priorities in the first half of the show. I just want to establish the core is something that the WNBP actually wants to get rid of in this new collective bargaining agreement because they view it as, it disrupts player agency. It prevents players from exercising their own unrestricted free agency. Because, you know, it's been mentioned, like, it doesn't just result in, like, you get to sign a one year super max deal. That sounds great for a player. What it does is it gives the team exclusive negotiating rights with you. Right? So you can't even go talk to other teams during free agency if you are cored by that team. So the PA wants to get rid of the core because they view it as, you know, reducing player agency. Whereas teams say, well, hey, like, we've invested all this money in players, like, we've saw their development for the first X years of their career. Like, this is how we continue to develop our team and, like, ensure competitive balance by making sure that, like, the best stars don't just all congregate in one place. And, you know, it's kind of like how you think about, if you're fans of other leagues, like, in the NBA, rookies can sign, like, what's called, like, a designated player contract if they're, like, good enough and they get an extra maximum contract after their, you know, first X years in the league. Well, wnba, like, you can only sign a supermax if you're with the team that, like, you currently play for, right? So this is just a way that players can sign a supermax contract without, like, you know, being seven years into the league or whatever. And you can only do that with the team you play for. And that sort of requires the core to exist, because otherwise you'd have to go into regular free agency and just sign the regular max contract, which is a little bit less money.
- [33:27]
Ben Pickman
And so where that really plays in to what we ended up doing to our protections was in terms of some of the biggest names who are free agents. So I'll take two players or two or three players as an example, Brianna Stewart and Kalia Copper of the Phoenix Mercury. Because in our exercise, we have New York and Phoenix, Neither of them are going to protect Brianna Stewart or Kalia Copper. And so it begs the question, are they basically saying, oh, any team can then, you know, Portland or Toronto can then take these players and have them on their roster? And the answer is, Stewie has been cord twice, and Copper has also, throughout her career, been core twice. And so neither of them are core eligible players. And so, yeah, sure, Toronto and Portland could select any of those players, but they don't, in essence, have the upper hand in the negotiation in terms of retaining their rights. They might as well be. They, you know, they could just be wasting a pick, so to speak, on Stewie or Copper. They can take them, but there's no guarantees that they would sign them and they, Both of them would go straight back into free agency. So, you know, that's the case with someone like Stewie. That's the case with Copper. That's the case with John Quail Jones, another New York Liberty, Brianna Jones of the Atlanta Dream. Some of those fires were multiple.
- [34:43]
Zena Kaeda
I was gonna say neca. Yep.
- [34:45]
Ben Pickman
And so sure, some of the older.
- [34:47]
Zena Kaeda
Veterans of the league have been cored twice at this point. And I think that's this is such a good thing to hit on because Sometimes the core designation, unrestricted free agency, restricted free agent. Like, it can get really confusing. I vividly remember in Golden State people trying to figure out what happened with Monique Billings and how that situation played out and understanding that if someone is an unrestricted free agent and they get drafted, they are still eligible to go talk to other people or be courted by other people. So as Ben mentioned, it could be wasting a pick because you could draft someone to your team and like cross your fingers that your offer is something that they want and they want to be a part of this team, but they could be courted by the team that they just were on or another one and up and leave you. And now you then have to operate on the free agent market. And that's always tough as a new team. Okay, just love you guys. Breaking all this stuff down for us now as you guys went through this exercise. And by the way, please go read this. It is so good. It's. It's well broken out in terms of who Ben and Sabrina anticipate teams protecting and then how they went about looking at the remainder of the roster, but also not looking down, just rosters, but what was available and what was interesting and I want to hear both of you guys opinion on this is to me there was an emphasis on the future, right? And I thought that that was really interesting because I think a lot of folks, when you think about drafting for a new franchise, you want some established talent, right? Someone that has a pedigree, that can establish a culture, maybe someone to build around. I loved and I saw that both of you had this element of for the future, there's potential you could tap in, et cetera. Was there something that made you like, look at that? Maybe teams in the past and how they've performed as they've expanded, or right now looking at the market of fresh talent that's here in the league and coming in the league to build around younger talent. Like how was your thought process shaped around some of those decisions?
- [36:55]
Sabrina Merchant
I think part of it is just contractual status. You know, you look at how the expansion draft works and if you take a player who's an unrestricted free agency, and as we just mentioned, like you have to negotiate a new contract, contract with them, right? And if they've already been cored, like you have no advantage in negotiating a contract with them, right? So it behooves you to take players who are already under contract or at least are a restricted free agent or reserve free agent, and that way you have, you know, negotiating rights with them. And can have a little bit more team control over the process than you know them just being willy nilly and you've drafted them. But like all that said is like, hey, we like you, but we can't actually do anything about that. So in this current free agency environment where as you mentioned, every veteran other than Lexi Brown and Kehlani Brown is a free agent, it just doesn't make a ton of sense to take veterans because you have no control as a team in this process. Right. So you almost have to skew younger because those are the only players you can be certain are actually going to come over to Portland or Toronto in this exercise.
- [37:45]
Zena Kaeda
And Ben, for you, that makes a lot of sense from a contractual perspective. But then after you get past that, it's a matter of who do you want to build around? Size, guards. How did you go about making that decision in terms of what was important to you?
- [38:01]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean, I look to create a balance of both. And what I think we both realize is there's not that many wings that we think or high quality wings that are going to be available in this expansion.
- [38:10]
Sabrina Merchant
Not Dallas wings, positional wings.
- [38:12]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, we can get into the Dallas wings because there are a lot of, there are a lot of high quality Dallas wings potentially on the market. But yeah, positionally, you know, it skews a little bit more guard and a little bit more bigs overall and a little less of kind of wings to build your team around. That was one observation I think we both had. But Sabrina is definitely right, like age, contract status, team control. Those were all, you know, important factors that I think we both looked at, especially early on in the expansion draft. And what is so interesting again to bring it all back to the CBA is the union clearly is trying to limit the amount of team control, I guess the team control of players. Right. Another thing that we didn't mention earlier is they want to shorten the length of rookie contracts currently. Basically you can have a rookie for, you know, three plus one four years, up to four years on their rookie contract, they want to shorten that. And so that would kind of change things again going forward. So when we, we looked at it, a lot of the teams that we targeted, and this is true for both Sabrina and I on early in this draft were teams that had either a lot of young players or B players who were still under some kind of team control. You know, reserve contract rights, teams that either Portland or Toronto could negotiate with right off the top. So the three that stick out, Dallas was very hard. So Sabrina and I, again, we made these protections for each of the teams that we collaborated on. Dallas, there were a ton of options, right? We ended up protecting for the first part of the draft, Paige Beckers, obviously, Maddie Segrist, Isaiah James, Louisa Geisel Soder, and Diamond Miller. Those were our five. But here are some of the players who, again, young and that have team control that we left available. AWA Koir, a number two pick just a few years ago. Again, Lou Lopez, Seneschal. These are not all equals, but these are all young, interesting names. J.J. quinnerle, Li, Yoru Haley Jones. Those are all players who theoretically, anyone could have taken from the Dallas Wings. Obviously, we don't know what Lula Seneschal is, but she was a top 10 pick in the WNBA draft. But other than that, those are all, like, pretty good young players who. There is some team control. Turn to the Golden State Valkyries. Think about their strategy a year ago very much was like, we want young players who we have some team control over. Well, they might be hurt by that strategy a little bit. Again, no fault of their own. In this upcoming draft, we have them protecting Kayla Thornton, Veronica Burton, Uste Yosite, Janelle Salon, and Ileana Rupert. Well, that leaves open someone like Chachi Zandelicini, Maria Konde, Carla Late, like, you know, every time.
- [40:43]
Sabrina Merchant
Kate Martin.
- [40:43]
Zena Kaeda
Every time.
- [40:44]
Sabrina Merchant
Kate Martin.
- [40:45]
Zena Kaeda
Kate Martin. I mean.
- [40:46]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, that.
- [40:47]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah, keep going. Sorry.
- [40:50]
Ben Pickman
That's the tension with those two teams. Minnesota, we could do the same exercise. I don't know. Minnesota is a little bit different. I don't know. You want to explain Minnesota and what makes them different? Sabrina?
- [40:58]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. So, you know, you talk about Golden State in Dallas, and I think Washington sort of falls in this bucket, too. They have a good chunk of young talent, and it's hard to figure out exactly how much young talent they're going to protect and, like, how many veterans they want to keep protecting. And it's just. It's a. It's an interesting exercise, like who you value more over what and, like, what you value more. And I mean, Golden State, like, for me, it was impossible, like, not to protect touchy Danielle Sini. But, like, we couldn't get there because, like, of all these other players, you know, that they had, and it's like, well, they go down in a playoff game and who has the ball in her hands at the end of the game? It's chechy. How do you not protect her? But, like, also, how do you not protect Janelle or Uste or any of those players? Right? So like, that was the exercise there. You look at teams like Minnesota and Las Vegas where they have a ton of veteran talent, right? But they're all unrestricted free agents. And it's like, well, do you want to protect a bunch of players who are unrestricted free agents who you could protect them and like, not be even certain that they're going to want to re sign with you? Or do you try to protect younger players who maybe aren't as integral to the fabric of the team? Trying to say that as nicely as possible. But like, also, you know that you protect them, you get to keep them under contract, right? Like, it's so it's like, do you want to protect Dana Evans, who was really important to helping you win a title, or Aaliyah Nye, who is under contract for the next three seasons? If you're Minnesota, do you protect Bridget Carlton? Or, you know, Anastasia Kosu, who again, three more years of contract, right? So like, that was a really tough choice with some of the veteran teams where, like, we don't know what their rookies are. Like, we know what the young players on Dallas, you know, Golden State, Washington can do. We don't really know what Kosu and Nye can do. But does that mean you can protect them over players who, like, again, Dana Evans can just walk if you want want an unrestricted free agency? Bridget Carlton, Courtney Williams can just walk, right? Do you still want to protect them? So that was a tough call with those and I think we kind of ended up just saying, like, we think Vegas and Minnesota want to win now we're going to protect the veterans now to say, like, hey, we tried to keep you, right? But I could totally see the Lynx and the Aces going in different directions and be like, hey, you know, like, we kind of need a little building block for the future. Maybe it makes sense to protect Kosu. So that was a sticking point in those protection conversations.
- [42:49]
Ben Pickman
And there was also like some fun of in the case of Minnesota. So they have all these players who have not been core, right? So we both operated with the assumption that they want to win. So hence they protecting Fee in our exercise. Kayla McBride, Alana Smith and Courtney Williams. And then when we weighed what are they going to do with this fifth protection, right? This fifth player in the first six rounds that we're giving them the opportunity to protect. They have players like Jess Shepard, Dorka Yuhas, Kosu. As Sabrina mentioned, Maya Hirsch was What, a top 12 pick a couple years ago? Dejanae Carrington. But where we ended up was having them Protect Bridget Carlton, who, you know, theoretically might be available. But we also reason. Do you know where Bridget Carlton's from? She is from Canada. There you go. And so you talk about building Toronto.
- [43:31]
Sabrina Merchant
Tempo would leave her in the trap, right?
- [43:33]
Ben Pickman
Building building blocks for a franchise. Well, if you draft Bridget Carlton, like, yeah, theoretically, she's an unrestricted free agent. She can go anywhere. You could give her the core and try and sign her to a max contract. That seems a little bit steep for Bridget Carlton, but I don't know. I bet she'd get wooed and fall in love if she wants to play for her country. In her country or in her country. For her country. For the national team, so to speak. Right. Like, even though they don't, every Canadian.
- [44:02]
Sabrina Merchant
Company would want to sponsor her. Like, think about it.
- [44:04]
Ben Pickman
Right?
- [44:05]
Zena Kaeda
So.
- [44:05]
Ben Pickman
So think about it. Right? Yes. So that's some of the other. Like, there were definitely cases we went through this exercise of the protections that we thought about like that another wrinkle in this discussion.
- [44:16]
Zena Kaeda
This is why I love the article for so many different reasons of not only did you guys explain your thoughts as the GMs, hypothetically of the. Of Toronto Tempo and the Portland Fire, but you also were able to get into the heads of the GMs of these existing teams. And I think this is a particular interesting exercise too, because there are new coaches all around the league that, you know, are going to have to make some decisions and how they want to protect and how is it going to work with their system. And I thought the most interesting one was New York, of course, New York finally announcing their new head coach, Chris DiMarco. And they don't know much about what he's going to do on the women's side in terms of what kind of members of a team that he would want, what kind of prototype he wants to value, et cetera. So it's like, okay, do we keep Maureen Johannes because she can score like a microwave score, or do we keep Benagilini Hamilton because she's a defender and we know that Cristo Marco is really about defense. Like, it felt like it was a cool exercise to get into the minds of. Of both and you break it all down. So let's get into some of these picks and I really. Let's start with the first round. I was devastated for many reasons. First you break up Paige and Lee, but you never know what could have happened. Anyway, okay, Unrivaled did it first. That's a great point. Unrivaled did it first. Okay, so break this down. Toronto Tempo Liyuru, Dallas Wings first and foremost. I'm big on big. So number one pick being six, seven, I'm happy with that. Cool. I love this. And not your typical back to the basket type of post. Someone that can also stretch the floor. What went into this decision to go number one with Li Yoru?
- [46:01]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, well, first, the other big takeaway is Li Yoru goes number one in this mock expansion draft. She might not scream number one pick in the same way that Paige Becker.
- [46:11]
Zena Kaeda
That's a good point. And I want to make sure that we emphasize that that is why this exercise was so fun is because the explanation, like you might hear some of these names and you're like, hold up, what was she averaging last year? What was happening here? It's not about that. It's about how you want to set up this team for the future, these contractual elements of what's available to you. So, yes, I just want to double tap on that. But back to you, Ben.
- [46:36]
Ben Pickman
Yeah. So Li Yoru, who I think she's what, 26, 27 years old or will be next season, is a really, really skilled big and she is 6 foot 7 and difficult to guard and an active rebounder. And she's, you know, a nearly 37% three point shooter, which is really, really good, especially for her player of her size. And so in that way, she is a super appealing potential prospect for the Toronto Tempo to select. She is a unique player, an advantage player around the WNBA and Toronto would select her and have the ability to sign her as they so choose. In picking Liyoru, I kind of weighed Liyoru versus Al Waqir, who is a younger player who again, really high potential long range, what, 6 foot 4? Like, we haven't seen a ton, a ton of production from her and we haven't seen her in the WNBA in a few years. And frankly, like, you can make a really, really good argument for a lot Kuir being the pick here. I would have had, you know, I definitely weighed what to do in this exercise. The other thing that I considered was that I kind of wanted to take Dallas off the board for Sabrina. I looked at Dallas as a really appealing, you know, a team with a lot of options, a lot of really good options. And so I wanted to make sure that I was walking out of this draft with a Dallas win. So there was no doubt in my mind I was going to go Dallas first. Golden State was another team I did consider and Sabrina obviously goes with them with, with her first selection. But, you know, there was some strategy Too of knocking out a team and then trying to get a good player. Lee highly productive career highs and points last year. Rebounds, blocks. I mentioned the three point shooting of Wings players who played at least 300 minutes. Only Paige hadn't hired on off. She can stretch the floor, she can score in the post like a really interesting pick. She was a third round pick when she went in the WNBA draft. But again we're looking at kind of the best in many cases, like some of the best role players who were available and. And she fits that bill with the potential to be more than that.
- [48:33]
Sabrina Merchant
Should also note that the assistant GM of the Toronto Tempo, Eli Horowitz, worked very hard to get Lee to the Los Angeles Sparks when he was in that role in la. So familiarity there.
- [48:41]
Zena Kaeda
Okay. Yes. And it's important to remember like what Ben is talking about in terms of taking Dallas off the board. Per the rules that they set up in this expansion mock draft, as soon as one team has a player chosen in that round or in that first part of the first six rounds. Yeah, first six rounds. Excuse me, out of the 12, the first half, they can't have another player chosen until the second, the back half. Okay. So, so smart that you took Dallas off the board. And then Sabrina, you turned around and did the same thing with Golden State starting in this case with a guard and Carla Layte and break down your reasoning for that and broke my heart. Cause Babe really loves her.
- [49:23]
Sabrina Merchant
But yeah, I mean we mentioned right. Valkyries and Mystics sort of had like the most depth in their pools beyond the wings. So it made sense to take both of them because we stank this. So I got the next two picks. You know, I thought really hard about Chechy because I frickin love Chati Zandalousini. She's just a rock solid player. She's also 30 years old and like it's not old by any means. But also if you're thinking about the future, I just think about all the potential Carla Layde has in front of her. And she was already so good as a driver getting into the paint, spraying out like really good free throw shooter already even if the three point shot hasn't come across yet. You know, great isolation player like her moves, her handle, there's a lot to work with there. And somebody that young to build around was just really, really exciting. You know, sky's the limit I think with Carla and I think Golden State felt the same way, you know when they brought her in in expansion draft. Actually like that's what I'm Sure. Dallas thought about her before that. Anyway.
- [50:12]
Ben Pickman
Can we toot our own horn here, Sabrina? Because when we did this exercise last year with the Golden State Valkyries mocking Expanse, we had Dallas protecting Carla late, and it seems like they didn't protect Carla late.
- [50:22]
Sabrina Merchant
And, yeah, we had Golden State picking Carla lay is what we should say.
- [50:25]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah, right, right, right.
- [50:26]
Ben Pickman
Because Dallas did not protect her in the exercise.
- [50:28]
Zena Kaeda
Got you, got you, got you, got you. Yeah. I mean, this was also interesting. There were a lot of overseas talent that we have not seen yet in the league that you had teams protecting, and I'm sure that that made things even more confusing, and not necessarily confusing, but a little convoluted and complicated thinking about the potentiality of some of these players coming to play in the league. Okay, I want to go into some of your more surprising picks, some of the ones that you're like, hmm, interesting that I would not have thought to pick them as high as you had. But there's one Ben I particularly want to get into, and it kind of touches on two different players. The Sarah Ashley Barker and Aaliyah Nye reunion. Break it down for me. How'd you come up with that? I love them at Alabama. Don't get me wrong. They were so much fun to watch, particularly last year in the tournament and then their conference tournament play. But how did you come down to. Let's get these two back together for a big backcourt in Canada?
- [51:22]
Ben Pickman
Well, I love Alabama women's basketball, so. No, I'm just kidding. Sabrina, we should be clear here of top 25 voters this week in the AP poll. Sabrina, the only person I believe around the country who had Alabama ranked in the top 25.
- [51:36]
Sabrina Merchant
Number 25.
- [51:37]
Ben Pickman
There you go.
- [51:38]
Zena Kaeda
Look at that. A lot of love for Alabama right now. Okay. Go, Bama, go.
- [51:41]
Ben Pickman
Where does it come on?
- [51:42]
Zena Kaeda
It's Roll Tide. No Roll Tide.
- [51:44]
Ben Pickman
There you go.
- [51:45]
Zena Kaeda
That is right.
- [51:45]
Ben Pickman
Oh, my God. That's correct.
- [51:46]
Zena Kaeda
God, I feel like. I feel like an outsider right now. Do I know things?
- [51:50]
Sabrina Merchant
It's been too long since you were in the south, you know, y.
- [51:53]
Zena Kaeda
That's why I was like, what's happening? This feels very weird. I'm officially way too in the west Coast. Let's. Let's get into it. Break it down.
- [52:00]
Ben Pickman
This selection for me was kind of a pivot point. I end up taking Sarah Ashley Barker in the first pick, I guess, of the third round in this exercise. And looking at the player list, Toronto is forced to decide, I say a high quality option from maybe not the best pool of. Of team the first group of teams I was looking at were off the board. Sarah Ashley Barker was a first round pick last April and yes, she struggled from both three point range. She was sub 30% from three and at the free throw line around 71%. I still am betting on the potential of a first round pick, first round talent who is under contract for a number of seasons. I want to say, I guess three more years, three more years after this. Where this pick was really interesting though was, was you can very much make an argument that I should have taken someone like Azeray Stevens here.
- [52:49]
Zena Kaeda
Okay? That's who I'm not. That is exactly what happened when I was reading this article. I was like, what if that's who you're protecting? Azerrae is right there, Ben. And then you broke it down. So explain what to say.
- [53:00]
Ben Pickman
And so, you know, super good argument for taking her and probably if I was going to do this exercise again, I would take Azrae Stevens. I end up getting her in this exercise in the seventh round. So all is well that ends well. The difference here is that again, Sarah Ashley Barker was, you know, contract controlled, team controlled for multiple seasons beyond this one as Ray Stevens who had a career year and you could argue is a building block. She's an unrestricted free agent and so Toronto basically would need to apply the core designation to her and either give her that max contract or as we've talked about, negotiate that contract in unrestricted free agency or you know, know keep her out of unrestricted free agency. And so to me that was a little bit risky. I wanted one more player at this point in the draft that I knew I could have on my team, guaranteed. And I wasn't ready to just dole out the core to someone. So that was kind of why I went with Barker in this case over Stevens doing it again. I probably would take Stevens and go big big, but stretch bigs as well.
- [54:02]
Zena Kaeda
Right? Like already been teammates too and oh, see that's now. Right.
- [54:07]
Ben Pickman
And there you go, right. And so then you ask about a Leoni. To me this was actually less about the Alabama. Alabama though that was a nice benefit. It was more again about the approach to team scarcity from one of the, from the 13 teams that Portland and Toronto are picking from because if you look at the Indiana Fever and the Las Vegas Aces, there were not a ton of high quality young players or cost control team control players available from either of these teams. So what stood out to. I think both me and Sabrina can talk about this too. And you, Chloe Bibby, from the Indiana fever and aaliyah nye from the las Vegas aces. They stand out in this exercise as either under contract or reserve players who are young or good wings or good shooters or just solid role players. And you go down the list and there's a big drop between them and who you might select next. And so once Chloe bibby went actually, and Sabrina could talk about that selection at the start of round four, she takes Bibby. I had to take aaliyah nye because if aaliyah nye falls past me and Sabrina has the opportunity to take her, Sabrina probably takes her, and that is a really good player and basically knocks the las Vegas aces out for me. I just wouldn't have taken an ace in the first six rounds. Got you.
- [55:24]
Zena Kaeda
Okay. That makes a lot of sense. Okay. I thought it was more about bama, but that makes. I mean, aaliyah and I had bright moments. What I love about her, absolutely. Someone that just absorbed the game. That's what happens when you're around vets like the aces. You saw what happened with Kate Martin, her game. I definitely see the potential with aliyah ni. Now let's get into you, Sabrina, because, you know, Ben referenced the Chloe bibby pick. I actually wasn't surprised by that pick. Chloe bibby could shoot the hell out of the ball last season. I was more interested by you closing out that first half of the draft with rhea marshall. And then you were one of the first to choose a veteran, an established veteran in arike gumbawale. So break those two picks down for me in how you decided to, like, flip it at the end of the first half and then open it up in the back half.
- [56:13]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. So this was basically just a consequence of, you know, how we set up the draft where we could only. Each team could only be picked from once in the first half. Right. So you get to the end of the first half, and you only have Seattle, Connecticut, Chicago left over, and it's like, well, do I want mackenzie Holmes? Do I want Maddie west spelled or do I want rhea marshall? And basically how I thought about it, and yeah, you could argue Rhea marshall was less productive than Maddie westfield. I mean, objectively, she was less productive than mattie westfield in their rookie seasons. But, like, dramatically so I don't know. And I look at Ray Marshall, I see what she did at usc, how much she grew over those four years. I just like her as a player a lot, you know? So that's really what the logic was there. It was. There's only three teams left to Pick from. I don't particularly have strong thoughts about any of them. And so it was just like a gut feeling there. And then once the teams reset in the second half, it's like, okay, well here, Dallas Wings back on the board. If they're going to build around Paige, protect their young players, Arike is kind of the perfect star to build around if you're starting a new franchise. Right. And maybe it's a long term thing, maybe it's not, but like there's no opportunity cost really here. Right. So I can take Enrique, give her the core, make her the foundation of the Portland Fire, at least in year one. And that's like really exciting as somebody who I know can score the ball, who I know can lead in the backcourt and can just give like an, you know, a fulcrum of this roster.
- [57:39]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah, that makes sense. And I'm curious, Ben, when you decided who you wanted to core? Because remember, each team, expansion team gets one core designation and you're mock expansion draft, we don't know what's going to actually happen in the real one. But who was the player that you decided to core?
- [57:55]
Ben Pickman
It was Azarae Stevens. I mean, it was like I missed her. I missed on the opportunity or passed on the opportunity to do it early and I wasn't going to, I wasn't going to fail twice at having her end up being on my team. I think one other wrinkle we should know in terms of potential rules to watch for whenever the expansion draft is, is if a franchise like Portland or Toronto is able to take take more than one player from one of the existing 13 teams. Right. So in this exercise, I ended up with two Los Angeles Sparks. I ended up with Sarah Ashley Barker and Azerrae Stevens. I think there's a question of when this actually occurs. Could that happen? Right. Or would the tempo be allowed to take just one player from the Sparks and then if the second half of the draft, I couldn't take another spark. I'm basically saying only Sabrina can take a Los Angeles Sparks player if she so chooses. So. So we didn't have that rule in place. We did not agree with that.
- [58:51]
Zena Kaeda
Sabrina ended up with two Golden State Valkyries players, right?
- [58:54]
Ben Pickman
Yeah. And so that's how I kind of ended up with both. But that is something else to watch for going forward.
- [59:00]
Zena Kaeda
Okay. Yeah. Don't look at this draft and figure like, wonder how is Dorky Yuha so low? How did Marine go so late? Like, this is the way this is all broken down is so helpful and so Interesting. And I am so curious as to how it will actually all shake out, what the rules are actually going to be. W. If you're listening, you got an example sitting on the athletic team.
- [59:20]
Ben Pickman
Exactly. They have an example. Sabrina, can we. Can we share. I think we should share our favorite selections or the moments.
- [59:25]
Zena Kaeda
That was gonna be my last question. I was gonna say, were there any players that you were like, I'm so happy I got.
- [59:30]
Sabrina Merchant
I went into this draft knowing that I wanted the Portland Fire to select Holly Winterburn, who was on the London Lions when Vanya and Alex Sarama were there. So that was my number one goal. Temmie was also on that team. They took her in last year's expansion draft. Anya did, I should say, not Alex Roma. But I wanted a London Lions reunion. And literally, like, as you were doing this process and Ben takes Nightland and Dream guard in the first half, I was like, oh, shit. Like, am I going to lose out on Holly? But thankfully got her in the second part.
- [59:55]
Zena Kaeda
There you go. Yeah, this. This is another one. Like, you guys had two players that never played in the WNBA that you chose Hollywood and then Ben Pickman, you got Maria Konde, another person that has been secretly killed. Oh, no, wait, you got Maria. Yeah. Okay. Actually, no, you got two.
- [60:12]
Sabrina Merchant
Vanya getting the two players at Donkeys after leaving Golden State.
- [60:15]
Zena Kaeda
Yeah, Yep, exactly. Okay. All right. Ben, what about you though? Who was your player that you were like, oh, I can't believe I got her. But I am so happy.
- [60:22]
Ben Pickman
I mean, the two names that stick out, number one, it was another player from the Atlanta Dream. Sabrina mentioned Holly Winterburn, who again the Dream signed but did not play with them last year. I got Isabel Borlaise, who is an Australian guard who yet to play in the W. Atlanta took her in the second round just a couple years ago and she's killing it right now over in the wnbl, Australia's professional league. And so Isabel Borlaise, she is still only 21 years old. She was first team all WNBL, I think in 2024. She has played for the Opals, the Australian Olympic team at the Paris Games. And we all know who the coach of the Toronto Tempo is. It is Sandy Rondello. So I like the ability. If anyone can bring out the best in a point guard or anyone know about an Australian point guard and knows Isabel Borlases game, it would be Sandy. So I thought that fit. I was like, great. That was a player that I wanted in the kind of maybe not at the Top of my list because as you can see in this exercise she falls to round 10. But the new York Liberty again, they have some very interesting protections. Leonie Febish, Sabrina Unescu, Benija Laney Hamilton. Those were the kind of gimme protections we had them making then for a team that is in win now mode. Sabrina and I picked or protected players that that we're international players and are younger players and maybe more high upside versus some of the veterans on their roster. So someone like Raquel Carrera we have them protecting and not Kennedy Burke who's older and later stage in her career but coming off a career year nevertheless I end up in round 10. So almost at the end of the draft having Toronto taking Maureen Johannes who again another coach player reunion. She's 30 so she's again a little older in her career and but she's a spark plug scorer and we know what she can do kind of in Sandy's system and I thought hey, like let's reunite the two of them. She's a dynamic offensive player, a high volume ball handler, can still shoot it and is very fun to watch. So that was another reunion of sorts that I thought worked out for me late in this draft.
- [62:22]
Zena Kaeda
Oh, I love it, I love it, I love it. Okay guys, go read this article, Let us know in those comments. Hear the video on the story wherever you want to drop it. How'd they do? If you're Toronto, if you're Portland, are you, are you looking at Sabrina and Ben be like hey, they need to get in the war room with these GMs or are there players that they're like oh no, there's no way a team doesn't protect this player. Come on, come on. Okay, break that down in the comments. We definitely want to hear from you on the other side of this break. We're going to find out a little bit more about what we listen to when we're clearly not watching women's basketball.
- [63:00]
Sabrina Merchant
With no fees or minimums on checking accounts, it's no wonder the Capital One bank guy is so passionate about banking with Capital One.
- [63:07]
Ben Pickman
If he were here, he wouldn't just.
- [63:09]
Sabrina Merchant
Tell you about no fees or minimums. He'd also talk about how most Capital One cafes are open seven days a week to assist with your banking needs. Yep. Even on weekends it's pretty much all he talks about in a good way. What's in your wallet terms apply. See capital1.com bank capital1NA member FDIC.
- [63:30]
Zena Kaeda
This holiday season. Connection with the kids we love is the best gift of all right, now, kids on average are spending between five to nine hours a day on screens. And studies link heavy use to rising anxiety and depression with social media being at the center of it all. That's why Gab makes kids safe. Phones and watches, no Internet, no social media. Just the right features for their age. With Gab's tech and steps approach, kids get the right tech at the right time. So if a phone is on your child's wish list, make it a Gab. The gift of safe connection. For an exclusive holiday offer, visit gab.com getgab and use code getgab that's G-A B B.com getgab Gab Tech insteps independence for them, peace of mind for you. You, you need to master skills for AI disruption and rapid change. But you don't have three days for a seminar. Take charge of your career. With Scrum alliance, we deliver official Agile certifications and micro credentials that equip you with high demand professional expertise. Learn the discipline of Scrum and Agile, the adaptability toolkit for any role. Flexible, accessible learning make your goals attainable. Get started now@scrumaliance.org Enjoy 20% savings on micro credentials with code year end 20.
- [64:53]
All right, guys, it's that time of year again. The year is closing and Spotify wrapped is here. They're going to let us know what we're listening to, I'm sure. Spotify does it, YouTube does it, Apple does it. We can get into where we listen. But Ben, I'm going to start with you. What did your Spotify rap tell you? What were your top songs? What was the most interesting thing you learned?
- [65:13]
Ben Pickman
Well, I learned that they have this new slide, that my listening age is 70, that I'm a man or someone in my early 70s. That's about on brand for me.
- [65:23]
Sabrina Merchant
And that's hilarious.
- [65:24]
Ben Pickman
Yeah.
- [65:25]
Zena Kaeda
And it makes me feel better about my listening age.
- [65:27]
Ben Pickman
No, no, that's, that's. I mean, my top artist this year, I think for the second straight year was Sufjan Stevens, who, you know, just a really good singer songwriter. I love the album Illinois, so I listen to that album all the time. Simon and Garfunkel, top five for me, J. Cole, then a little variety all over the place. Yeah, but J. Cole, not the 70s. Simon and Garfunkel, the 70s.
- [65:49]
Zena Kaeda
You're a cool 70. You're a cool 70.
- [65:51]
Ben Pickman
My four was Operation Mincemeat, which is a Broadway show that opened this past year that I loved and I loved the score of and my fifth most Listened to artist was Jay Z. So all over the map from Sufjan, Stevens, Simon and Garfunkel. Little musical theater, little rap. Yep, that adds up.
- [66:08]
Zena Kaeda
Okay, that's a really good recap. Sabrina, I know you are not quite the Spotify listener, but you had a YouTube rap.
- [66:17]
Sabrina Merchant
My YouTube rap doesn't tell you anything about me. If I go to my Apple music, they did do a replay. Just all the pop girlies, and Wicked was my top album for five months this year. So my top five are Cynthia Erivo, Taylor Swift, Ariana Grande, Sabrina Carpenter, and then a Bollywood artist. So yeah, yeah, that's where we are.
- [66:36]
Zena Kaeda
Oh, okay. I respect it. I respect it. Okay. So my listening age was 38, and I was like, oops, a little bit older. Okay. But what I loved about it was they were like, you clearly love the early 2000s. I was like, absolutely. That is my jam. So definitely in that millennial range. My top artists were Glorilla, of course. Glorilla. A little bit of Cardi, Yeba Dochi, and Kendrick. Kendrick Lamar. My top album was GNX by Kendrick Lamar. I love that. My favorite top song was no Broke Boys, because if you've ever heard that song, it is the most fun. I've got my mom singing that song. No point. No new friends. Okay. I know my producer is like, close this show out. That's fun. Let us know what you guys are listening to and you're thankful for.
- [67:33]
Sabrina Merchant
Listening to no Off Season. I've already had a listener tell us no Off Season was their number one podcast of the year, which is very exciting.
- [67:38]
Zena Kaeda
I know. That was so cool. I've been getting some messages of folks screenshotting like they are listening to us, putting us at the top of their list or at least in their top five. And they're like, oh, you already know. I'm like, no, you already know.
- [67:50]
Ben Pickman
Okay, you know, tag us on Instagram, tweet at us. Blue sky us. We very much appreciate it. It's been cool to see that.
- [67:58]
Zena Kaeda
Appreciate you guys keeping us in your rotation. We'll continue this next week. We got more women's basketball, of course, to talk about. We got more updates on cba. Well, hopefully we'll have more updates. We'll see what happens. But any other questions you guys have, make sure you're sending them over because we got our mailbag episode coming up soon. So tag them in the comments, whatever, or email them at no offseason@the athletic.com, of course, wherever you're listening. Spotify, Apple, YouTube. We just laid out the options. There's a ton of options. Follow our show subscribe so that next year in your Spotify wrapped. If we didn't make it this year, we'll definitely be there next year. And then of course head over to our partner the Yahoo Sports hub. They've got more content over there. Sports.yahoo.com womensports on behalf of the Athletic Sabrina Merchant, Ben Pickman, I'm Zena Keda. Thanks for listening and we will see you guys next time.
- [68:52]
Sabrina Merchant
Time.
- [68:54]
Zena Kaeda
No Off Season is hosted by Zena Kada with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producer is Andrea B. Scott. Our theme music is by Marcus Bagala. Monica Compton is our video editor. Shannon Ryan is managing editor of women's basketball at the Athletic. Jesse Burton is our head of audio and Tim McMaster is director of Audio operations.
- [69:32]
If you love to travel, Capital One has a rewards credit card that's perfect for you. With the Capital One Venture X card, you earn unlimited double miles on everything you buy. Plus you get premium benefits at a collection of luxury hotels when you book on Capital One Travel. And with Venture X you get access to over 1,000 airport lounges worldwide. Open up a world of travel possibilities with a Capital One Venture X card. What's in your wallet? Terms apply.
- [69:59]
Sabrina Merchant
Lounge access is subject to change. See capital1.com for details.
- [70:02]
Zena Kaeda
Guys, thanks for helping me carry my Christmas tree. Zoe. This thing weighs a ton.
- [70:05]
Ben Pickman
Drew Ski, lift with your legs man.
- [70:07]
Zena Kaeda
Santa. Santa.
- [70:08]
Ben Pickman
Santa, did you get my letter?
- [70:09]
Zena Kaeda
He's talking to you, Bridges. I'm not.
- [70:12]
Sabrina Merchant
Of course he did.
- [70:13]
Ben Pickman
Right Santa, you know my elf Drew Ski here. He handles the nice list.
- [70:17]
Zena Kaeda
And elf, I'm six' three. What everyone wants is iPhone 17 and at T Mobile you can get it on them. That center stage front camera is amazing for group selfies. Right, Mrs. Claus?
- [70:27]
Ben Pickman
I'm Mrs. Claus's much younger sister and.
- [70:29]
Zena Kaeda
AT T Mobile there's no trade in.
- [70:31]
Ben Pickman
Needed when you switch. So you can keep your old phone or give it a suggestion. Give.
- [70:34]
Zena Kaeda
And the best part?
- [70:35]
Ben Pickman
You can make the switch to T Mobile from your phone in just 15 minutes.
- [70:38]
Zena Kaeda
Nice. My side of the tree is slipping.
- [70:40]
Sabrina Merchant
Kimber the holidays are better.
- [70:42]
Ben Pickman
AT T Mobile switch in just 15.
- [70:44]
Zena Kaeda
Minutes and get iPhone 17 on us.
- [70:46]
Sabrina Merchant
With no trade in needed.
- [70:48]
Ben Pickman
And now T Mobile is available in.
- [70:49]
Zena Kaeda
US cellular stores with 24 month credits.
- [70:52]
Sabrina Merchant
For well qualified customers plus tax and.
- [70:53]
Ben Pickman
35 device connection charge credits and balance due if you pay off earlier. Cancel finance agreement 256 gigs $830 eligible for in a new line 100 plus a month plan without our PayPal taxes. Visa required.
- [71:00]
Zena Kaeda
Check out 15 minutes or less per line.
- [71:01]
Sabrina Merchant
Visit t mobile.com Hannah Burner Are those the cozy Tommy John pajamas you're buying? Paige desorbo they are Tommy John.
- [71:09]
Zena Kaeda
And yes, I'm stocking up because they make the best holiday gifts so generous.
- [71:15]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, I'm a generous girly, especially when it comes to me. So I'm grabbing the softest sleepwear, comfiest.
- [71:20]
Zena Kaeda
Underwear, and best fitting loungewear. So nothing for your bestie?
- [71:24]
Sabrina Merchant
Of course I'm getting my dad Tommy John. Oh, and you? Of course it's giving holiday gifting made easy. Exactly. Cozy, comfy, everyone's happy Gift everyone on.
- [71:35]
Zena Kaeda
Your list, including yourself with Tommy John and get 30% off site wide right now at tommyjohn.comfort.