← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
Why the Atlanta Dream is Thriving & the Dallas Wings are Not: Grading New Head Coaches in the WNBA
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- [00:00]
Zena Kada
How can you free your team from time consuming office tasks? Amazon Business empowers leaders to not only streamline purchasing, but better support their teams. Smart business buying tools enable buyers to find and purchase items fast so they can focus on strategy and growth. It's time to free up your teams and focus on your future. Learn more about the technology, insights and Support available@AmazonBusiness.com when Pro Defensive end Cam.
- [00:24]
Cam Jordan
Jordan isn't running after quarterbacks, he's running his own businesses. He sat down with Microsoft's Jessica Hawke to learn how AI can help as a football player.
- [00:32]
Jessica Hawke
There, we're really focused on the X's and Nos. It's fun because it's a strategy game as well and I think that transitions well into the business world.
- [00:39]
Unnamed Business Expert
There's so much data underlying every single thing that you're doing in your business and having a way to unify all that data. This is like electricity. This is a major platform shift and I think we're all learning together.
- [00:50]
Cam Jordan
Ready to raise your AI game? Find your winning edge@Microsoft.com challengers.
- [00:57]
Paige
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- [01:41]
Zena Kada
Hello, everyone, and welcome to no Off Season presented by Amazon Business. I'm Zena Kada.
- [01:46]
Sabrina Merchant
I'm Sabrina Merchant.
- [01:48]
Ben Pickman
And I'm Ben Pickman.
- [01:49]
Zena Kada
Today on the show, we are checking in on some of the season's new head coaches. We're going to find out what's going on, how are they performing, how are their teams performing and just see, you know, who's meeting expectations and who's sadly just putting the blinders on right now. Of course, it's still early, but we gotta check in with them. But first let's check in on some news around the association. The numbers are in. Despite Caitlin Clark's absence during last Saturday's fever Sky matchup, the game, which was broadcast nationally on CBS, still average 1.9 million viewers. What does that tell me? There's a lot of talent that people want to watch, so shout out to the viewers for tuning in. In other sky news, there was another moment that Happened. They faced the New York Liberty this past Tuesday night at Barclays Cent. Yeah, it was, it was a tough game. Tough, tough, rough one for the, the sky. And they've had a pretty good series of tough games. Um, and Angel Reese, who as we've discussed, has not been putting up her best performances thus far this season, but she had a great game against New York, which I feel like is a theme even going back to last season. She had 17 points, 11 rebounds. And afterwards, during the post game press conference, her teammate Ariel Atkins spoke up about some of the online criticism that Reese has been getting. Now we're gonna play this clip really quickly so you can hear what it says.
- [03:13]
Ariel Atkins
I'm sorry, can I, can I say something? This is a 23 year old kid and the amount of crap that she gets on a day to day, she still shows up. So whatever questions y' all got, like about our team, basketball wise, we appreciate it. But all the other nonsense, like, is she relevant? Like, we here to play basketball and do what we do, we having a hard time right now. At the end of the day, just a 23 year old kid who handles herself with grace. Her crown is heavy. So whatever else, like y' all want to come at her for the way that she acts, she has to build the wall. She has to have the wall. Because if she doesn't, people will break her down. Not only just because of the way she looked, but because of the way she cares herself. She doesn't just walk around and act like, oh, I'm this, I'm not. She knows who she is and we ain't gonna break her down for that. So whatever other questions y' all got, like, I'm hoping it's just about basketball, maybe a box score question, but the kid's crown is heavy. Like, respect that.
- [04:05]
Zena Kada
Okay, so we wrote a story about this exact comment and this press conference. And it's clear that Ariel Atkins wants the criticism that has nothing to do with basketball on Angel Reese to stop. She wants the focus to be about her game and what she produces. And if you want examples of said criticism, you can look no further than the comments on that story by Mark Polio on our site to see examples of it. And we know it is incredibly hard to divorce these two concepts of angel off the court and how she's treated off the court and her play on the court, because a lot of people like to conflate the two. But I like what Ariel's talking about. Let's focus on the basketball. Let's try and put this in basketball context, because what Ariel did for angel is a reflection of how the Chicago sky have been this season. And there's no one that knows that better than Ben. Ben, you've been with Chicago and at these games while they've been thrown in the ringer in some of these games. And I feel like these comments from Ariel reflect a pattern of growth that maybe you've seen. Tell us more.
- [05:17]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, it's an interesting setup and I will say I haven't seen all the Chicago sky games in person, Xena, but I have been to a few blowout losses of the Chicago sky, three of them to be exact. I was at their opening night 35 point loss to the Indiana Fever. I saw them again this past Saturday play the Fever where they lost by 27 points. And then I was at this 19 point loss against New York. And you know, kind of post game, in talking with players, just observing, being around the team a little bit and talking to them in between games. Like, there were just three very different reactions in each of those three losses. Like, the first loss kind of stands out to me because there was just so much that happened, especially in the second half of that game. There was, you know, the flagrant foul that was called on Caitlin Clark involving Angel Reese. You know, then the game getting away from the sky, it ballooned to this 30 point blowout. Like, the fans were crazy. It was opening night. It just kind of had this like very chaotic new energy though for this guy, new players, first year coach. It was like, whoa, like this is obviously not how you want to start a season. When I saw them, you know, post game on Saturday night, you know, that loss, to me it will just be marked by Courtney Vander Sleet going out with an ACL tear. And really the mood after was as you would expect, it was really somber, right? Like the fact that Courtney Vandersloop tears her ACL in the first quarter, 5:29 to go. It just changed the entire tenor of that night. It was supposed to be this historic celebration, the first ever WNBA game at the United Center. The injury happens and Chicago frankly like does not recover. They do not rebound. And it seemed like emotionally, really understandably so after losing their engine, their team captain, with this devastating injury. They did, I should say, like Courtney actually was around the team a little bit on Monday, just meeting with doctors and I think, you know, there was a, you know, people obviously have her in their thoughts, but I think players were appreciative and happy to see her. What last night's loss kind of Told me, like Chicago did not start the game very well. They had 15 turnovers in the first half and only 14 made field goals. They fell behind, I want to say 10, nothing. They went the first five minutes without scoring. It was like the longest it had taken them to score a basket. Any team around the league to open a game this year. But post game, like, they did not play well and they knew that they had so many self inflicted wounds and they all knew that. And what Atkins comments kind of showed me was like this idea of connectivity is you're talking about Xena, like that the players do have each other's back, that they do want to, you know, play alongside each other, that they still are enjoying the environment, they're not enjoying losing, but they're still, you know, you know, finding ways to enjoy each other's company, to be supportive teammates, to, you know, have a desire to want to move forward. Those are not always qualities that you have on teams that, you know, are losing teams. And that is what Chicago sky are now, right? They're 2 and 6 at the time we taped this and I think, you know, angel, after Ariel, you know, chimed in with her comments just a few minutes into the press conference, she said before responding, like, thank you, Ariel, like, you know, I appreciate you. Like, there was this kind of very simple moment of connectivity where I do think you could hear it and see it, like Angel Reese, really appreciating and respecting that. Like Ariel, to a question that was not to her, she, we should say, like she said what she said, totally unprompted, spoke up, you know, said what she said, had her teammates back right beside her. Knowing that her teammate, despite having a double double, like, has gone through some struggles on the basketball court this year, not been as efficient or as effective as Angel, Reese or anyone on the sky would want and still like, again, was a supportive teammate. And so to me, that was one of the things that stuck out. Post game was just like, you know, yeah, they lost a game. Yeah, it was another blowout. Yeah, they don't want to have that happen, obviously, and they want to be more competitive, but like they still appear to want to play together, be together, have this connectivity and want to move forward from it.
- [09:03]
Zena Kada
And talk to me a little bit more about Angel's game that day because she did play well, right? Of course you see the double double, 17 points, 11 rebounds. Yet in the presser, she was very adamant about the accountability she was taking about her game and how she's playing and how she's showing up every Single day to work. What is it that you saw out there and what was it that she said that she could be better about in her game?
- [09:27]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, she kind of talked a little bit about still playing a little fast or like trying to make the more difficult pass versus just like the right pass or the pass that is, you know, the best one in front of her. I mean, the number she called out more than anything else was that she had five turnovers. Right. And Chicago had five turnovers in the first four minutes of the game. Like they. Again, self inflicted wounds was a phrase that I want to say some of the players. But certainly Tyler Marsh also said post game that was really what she talked about. And I do think, like, you know, Angel Ariel Atkins, who also had five turnovers, you know, like, these are high level professional athletes who recognize post game they did not play their best. Like, and, and they felt that they wore that. They were aware of that. And I think like they want to be better from it. That was, I think pretty clear. And they are still very much like, you know, you lose your point guard like Courtney Vandersloot, there is a finding of self that teams then are going to have to go through. You're reworking your identity, you're reworking your flow, you're losing your orchestrator. These are all things they're going to have to work through. We'll see how successful they are at doing it. But again, like, they do seem to want to do it together. And there was a kind of a competitive edge also that I kind of picked up on just of like this season. This is might be another Valley. This might be another low point. But like, we still believe we can climb out of this hole.
- [10:45]
Zena Kada
I love that and I think it's so important, especially when you're in a losing season. You put it perfectly. It's not easy to stick together when you're having some of the tough moments in a season and to be able to have each other's backs. And as I mentioned, you know what Ariel's referring to. We definitely can expound upon that. But it is important to do what you just said, which is put all of this in the basketball context. How is this impacting what Chicago's doing on the court? How are these players playing together? How is Tyler Marsh showing up as a new coach, which is going to be perfect for the conversation that we're going to have today talking about the new coaches around the association. So let's jump into that. How can you free your team from time consuming office tasks? Amazon Business empowers leaders to not only streamline purchasing, but better support their teams. Smart business buying tools enable buyers to find and purchase items fast so they can focus on strategy and growth. It's time to free up your teams and focus on your future. Learn more about the technology, insights and Support available@AmazonBusiness.com.
- [11:51]
Cam Jordan
When Pro Defensive end Cam Jordan isn't running after quarterbacks, he's running his own businesses. He sat down with Microsoft's Jessica Hawk to learn how AI can help.
- [12:00]
Jessica Hawke
As a football player, we're really focused on the X's and Nos. It's fun because it's a strategy game as well and I think that transitions well to the business world.
- [12:08]
Unnamed Business Expert
There's so much data underlying every single thing that you're doing in your business and having a way to unify all that data. This is like electricity. This is a major platform shift and I think we're all learning together.
- [12:19]
Cam Jordan
Ready to raise your AI game? Find your winning edge at Microsoft.com challengers.
- [12:26]
Paige
Hi, it's Paige from Giggly Squad. Let's be real, Cat dads are in their golden era. Temptations, America's number one cat treat brand, is celebrating how seriously irresistible these guys are. They've got sensitivity, snack, timing, precision and their cats adore them. Add in a handful of Temptations treats and boom, you've got a certified cat dad. Show more love to the cat dad in your life with Temptations Cat Treats and tag your fave moments with hashtag catdad sighting. You know we're dying to see them.
- [13:01]
Zena Kada
Now. We knew this WNBA season was going to be interesting. Of course there was a lot of movement from the players. We're seeing teams still try to figure out the wrinkles and the folds of new personalities, new skills, new everything. But we also have new coaches, people at the helm making the decisions on how to integrate the these players and what these offenses and defenses and identities look like. Seven new first time head coaches in the league trying to impose and imprint their identities as coaches. And now we're about a month into this new season. Some of them are crushing it, meeting or even beating expectations. And some of them, you know, they're not. Let's just be real, they're not. So we wanted to check in and break down some of those performances together. Before we jump into the actual what coaches, let's back up a second because I want to know, Sabrina, I'm going to ask you what makes for a good coach. Specifically in the wnba, they win games.
- [14:00]
Sabrina Merchant
I think that's the number one thing they win games.
- [14:03]
Zena Kada
Boom, there you go.
- [14:04]
Sabrina Merchant
You know, you can hear all of the buzzwords coaches bring. You know, when they get hired, when they start the season, they're all competitive people. They want to do well. They want to, you know, succeed on the basketball court. And I think you see a very different tenor when teams win and when they lose. And coaches are obviously much happier when they win. And I think, despite what it might behoove, teams, you know, to prepare for the future, you know, solidify draft position, whatnot. Coaches want to win, and they consider themselves successful when they win. I think that's the number one thing. And then number two is just developing the young talent on your roster. It is so hard to win in the WNBA unless you are a deep team and you can only get so many number one draft picks. You can only sign so many marquee free agents. You really have to be able to develop the back end of the roster. So to me, that's like the number one thing that I look for with coaches. Can they do those things together?
- [14:49]
Zena Kada
I was just thinking, like, it's a really great point about the development because of the limitations you have on your roster. You got to make do with the people you have available to you. Ben, what were your thoughts on, you know, what makes for a good coach, not only winning, but development as well?
- [15:03]
Ben Pickman
Well, I just love, like, Sabrina goes, you know, results business. We all know it, like, straightforward, straight shooter. I love it because I was going to say, like, some of the things that I look for or in talking to coaches, like, you know, what makes a good coach is a lot more of the culture building, right? It is like the ability to keep a locker room together, to effectively communicate, to keep people, you know, focused on the vision and that you're preaching in the present and that you want to get across in the future. It's the ability to, you know, step up and maybe take the. Take the hit for your players when things are going poorly, to not throw them under the bus like, you know, the basketball. I think there are a lot of coaches, head coaches, assistants, and former head coaches who are good basketball minds, who are great basketball minds, who are, you know, when we talk about coaches on this show, like, those are people who know thousands of times more about the actual X's and O's of basketball than we do. But it's like, really interesting, obviously, to understand, to try and think about culture building, team building, the locker room. Again, some stuff that we don't know from the outside either, obviously from not like being in those shoes. But we can also get a sense for those things from what we hear, from what we learn from when we talk to people, when we listen to what we observe. So those are some of the things I also look for, what separates good and great coaches. It is not just like, can you draw up a great out of bounds play. It is a lot of that other everything else that is a little tougher.
- [16:30]
Zena Kada
To quantify, a little bit of the intangibles. And I'm curious because I think that, I think about the NBA coaches and there are several going on to be hall of Fame NBA coaches that don't know how to develop talent. They do not concern themselves with that, right? And their GMs know that. And they equip them with veteran talent. They equip them with players that know how to play and know how to figure out those sideline out of bounds plays and such, but they don't have to concern themselves with that. I feel like the development thing is something that might be unique to the wnba. Do you think that the aspect of culture building ends up being a little bit more unique to the WNBA because of one, how long players are staying in the WNBA and how those personalities, you know, integrating that with new players and trying to change how a team plays and you're still playing with someone that might have started in the early 2000s. Is culture building, you think, something that's specifically unique to wnba or are there other aspects of being a coach that are very unique to being in WBA NBA?
- [17:36]
Ben Pickman
I don't think it's necessarily unique to the wnba, but I do think in this particular moment, in a lot of the hires that were made this past offseason, like the word culture building or team building or, you know, laying down foundations or building good habits, like those were all some of the buzzwords that we heard pretty across the board from. I mean, all if not all of the new coaches that were hired this past, you know, this past offseason, some of them come from college backgrounds where literally like they view coaching. You know, you are not just the head coach, you are kind of the CEO of, of a program, right? You are running a program. So we've kind of seen that terminology come into the WNBA context for some other teams and for some other coaches who have been hired, like the expectation right away is not like we're going to win a championship in year one. And so, you know, if you acknowledge that you're probably not going to win the title, well then it's like, what are you evaluate as success like in the case of Chris Coclantis in Dallas, he's been open. Like, we want to have players who at the end of the year say that they want to be Dallas Wings for another year, are going to the future. Like that is part of their measure of success. It's not necessarily like, are they going to win a playoff series right off the bat though. Of course, obviously, you know, every coach tries to win every game too. We should be clear about that, even though we probably don't need to. So like, no, I don't think it's new to the W, but I do think, like, we certainly are seeing that language, that terminology, that awareness of like, you know, that is important. And I think that's true of like this generation of athletes. Like that is we see that in a lot of sports too.
- [19:09]
Zena Kada
The only reason I asked that question, not necessarily that it's new to the W, but like, is it specific to W? Because I think about when Candace Parker was on this show talking about why she left LA and that the culture and the locker room and what that was like and how there was this toxic element to it that she felt like not only did she need to leave, but she had been a part of sustaining it. So it does seem to be like this theme of something to grow on. But I love the fact that both of you overlapped each other when you talked about foundation. And you're seeing a lot of these new head coaches trying to set up their foundation. And there are some teams that are doing it exceptionally well, especially with the new faces that they've integrated into their new foundations. So let's start at the top of the tier with someone whose team is largely beating expectations this year. And I put emphasis on large because their team is big people. Okay. And that is Carl Smesko and the Atlanta Dream. Watching this team, it's relentless. The amount of ways they can score and the amount of ways they can make you feel like you have no room to play in the half court is tremendous. Ben, can you tell us a little bit about Smesco's coaching style, his philosophy? You've been with this team as they were setting up this season and how you're now seeing that integrated into the dream.
- [20:28]
Ben Pickman
And it's been interesting because Sabrina and I talked to Karl basically, I think on the day he was hired as the Atlanta Dreams heads coach, we wrote a big story about that decision and then obviously we followed up with them. In the weeks and months since, you know, Cross Mexico came from fgcu, Florida, Gulf Coast University, this small college in Florida where basically he developed like this reputation as kind of an offensive mastermind. They prioritized three point shots, often catch and shoot threes or layups, like it was one or the other. It was a really innovative offense. They, you know, were top of the country basically in three point rate all the time. He also was a winner, to Sabrina's point, about that being important. Entering this past college season, he boasted the third highest winning percentage among active college coaches behind just Gino Auriemma and Kim Mulkey. Over the last decade, it was only Oriemma Molke and Dawn staley had more 30 win seasons than Carl. So from a basketball perspective, it was all about this like outside the box thinking and the offensive innovation. But when you talk to people like one of the things that stuck out is he talks about being a teacher first. Like that's really, really important to how he communicates and how, you know, the Atlanta dream are kind of building, you know, what they are building. He's always seemingly asking follow up questions. He talks a lot about habit building. One of the things that struck me when I went down to Atlanta, he actually doesn't call his practice plans practice plans. He calls them progress plans. And that was something that goes back to his time in college where it's like we have a process, a progress schedule and not a practice schedule. And that's like, you know, from a college context it might be a way. The way he explained it to me was like, it's a way to try and get people to understand, like, oh, we're not just showing up at practice at 8 o' clock or 9 o' clock or 10 o' clock and like we got to get shots up and we got to work out, but like we're building towards something. That's not how Carl sounds. By the way, I was going to.
- [22:17]
Sabrina Merchant
Say the voice is perfect. That was just me beingaut mixed with Carl Smith.
- [22:25]
Ben Pickman
That's the Tom Thibodeau conversation. You can hear that on Xena's other podcast if you want some more coaching and NBA conversation. But yeah, like those are some of the things that are really important for him, like communicating, asking a lot of questions and at his core. And he said this when he got hired and it's true today, like they are trying to leverage the strengths of their best players and put them in a position to succeed. Right. And every coach would say that. But it is something we have seen where it's like they're not playing exactly the way he did in college. They have two centers in a way that Brittney Griner, Bri Jones, they didn't have that at fgcu. So it is a little bit different. And I think that shows, again, adaptivity and wanting to kind of be a teacher first in how he communicates.
- [23:03]
Zena Kada
I love that people, you know, talk about Carlos Mesco and the way that he's been a coach. What you're referring to, Ben, is that he asks these questions, and it's almost like an open dialogue. You've heard this on the broadcast that covers the dream about how he's like a dad. He's very much like a dad. He has a dad jokes. He has. And I think you've mentioned this too, Ben, that this is, like, how he kind of operates.
- [23:24]
Ben Pickman
Yeah.
- [23:24]
Zena Kada
With the players. Right.
- [23:25]
Ben Pickman
You want a good one? I mean, I told the dominating Dominic story a couple, but, like. Yeah, like, you know how some people say, like, you're. You're my ride or die? Obviously, he says to Ryan Howard, choose my Ryan or die. So you can, you know, we'll insert the. The drum, Carl. The drum symbol after.
- [23:44]
Zena Kada
Boom. See, I mean that. I feel like this, Sabrina, that's coming from your head coach. Having this kind of endearing quality to him. One already disarms folks. Right. Already makes them feel a little bit more comfortable to show up as their true selves. And now you're looking at this team right now. Alicia Gray, Eastern Conference player of the week. I think she's been an Eastern Conference player of the month as well. Unbelievable performances coming out of her. She is doing so well. Most improved candidate for sure. And then Ryan Howard, obviously is in that fourth year, in that leap year, but it's really just the way that they've made all of these players work together. And there's a lot of new faces. And you even consider the fact that Jordan Canada is coming into this mix late from her injury, and you look at their most recent game against Indiana last night, and Jordan Canada coming in, and she's not just distributing, she's going to the rack as well. It feels as if Carl Smesco has found ways to get all of these different things out of this team, where individual attributes are being. You know, there's a light being shown on them, but they're gelling so well. What are you seeing out there? What. Why do you think Carl has been able to get all of the best elements out of their player, of his players, but also get them to get on the same page?
- [25:06]
Sabrina Merchant
I mean, first things first, like, not to just discount What Carl Musk is doing in Atlanta, there's a lot of low hanging fruit on the offensive end. This is a team that was the worst offense in the WNBA last year. You know, averaging 96.6 points for 100 possessions are about 10 points better than that this season. And a lot of it is. I mean, Reinhauer is not shooting the ball all that much better than she did last year. But you've got Bree Jones, who's hyper, efficient inside. Alicia Gray, like you mentioned, is shooting better. The shots that they're getting make so much more sense than the long two parade that existed with the Dream the last couple years. So I think that's first and foremost, like you hire an offensive mastermind because you think that there is untapped potential with your players. And I completely agree with that. Right. That team was way too talented to be scoring the ball as poorly as they were the last two seasons. And that just seemed like the obvious source of improvement. And for it to have happened, like, it just validates everything you've thought about with Carl Smesko, right? But I mean, I think Ben just hit on it with the personality part of it, right? Like, we had talked about his Atlitics shirt, right? And I was talking to Brianna Jones about, you know, all the players got one. Like, has she worn her, as she said, definitely not, but. And then she's like, well, Smesco's not like any coach that I've ever had. But also, you can't deny that everything he's saying makes sense, right? Like, there is logic to everything that he is preaching to them. So when you have the track record of what Carlos Mesco brings from fgcu, when you have the initial spate of success that they've had to start the season, right, like when everybody is getting to play as their best self within the system, it's easy to buy in when things look like they're working, right? And I think that achieving that initial success helps a lot in this, you know, particular aspect. I think him keeping Brandy Poole as one of his lead assistants, you know, somebody who's been in the WNBA for a very long time, just to sort of help translate things. You know, because he comes from college basketball, she's been in the wnba, I think that makes a lot of sense. You know, just helps give the staff a little bit more credibility. You know, when I saw the Dream in Los Angeles, like their shoot around is being run by Brandy Poole and like just having that sharing of responsibilities, a voice that people are maybe a little bit More familiar with, like understand the words. I think all of that helps in building a culture and, you know, coming from a different system and adapting to the WNBA this quickly.
- [27:06]
Zena Kada
Yeah. And I think that not only does it help with the translating from his college to WNBA and, and the credibility you mentioned, but it also adds a level or showcases a level to the players of humility, of showing I don't know everything and I'm gonna trust this person that does know more in the WNBA to help me learn. And I think that that also is another reason a player would buy in. It's like, oh, okay, you're not trying to come in and take over and completely change everything. You're willing to bring on one of our own to help you get to that level. Okay, that's awesome. Shout out to Atlanta. They are doing incredibly well right now. At the time that we're recording this, Atlanta is third in the WNBA 6 and 3 on the season, playing solidly. And also inject Alicia Gray post game interviews into my veins. They are so much fun. They are hilarious. If you're watching a dream game, guys, don't just immediately cut off, wait to see if you're getting an Alicia Gray conversation because it's always going to be great. Let's keep it going and move down the ladder. A couple runs to talk about some new head coaches that may be coming in with low or no expectations as to how their teams might do, but they're killing it. They're doing a great job. They're doing better than anyone could have expected. And that's Natalie Nakase of the Golden State Valkyries and Sydney Johnson of the Washington Mystics. Sabrina, let's talk about the Valkyries first and coach Nakase, you guys just talked about Carl Smesco talking about, you know, we don't have a practice plan. We have a progress plan. It's interesting. Coach Nakase has a saying that's process over results, process over results. And this is, I think is one of those things where she's almost prefacing. We're not worried about the outcome similar to what coach Chris Klanis said. Right. We're not overly focused on the outcome as we are getting better every day. Getting 1% better every day. They just had a game against the Las Vegas Aces that was demonstrably good. I mean, they were, they won big. And Nikase played, you know, coached against her old boss in Becky Hammond where she was an assistant coach against the Aces. And so people could say that she was particularly well equipped to coach against that team. And you know, coach Becky Hammond, but there are other things you're seeing in other games. They just won down the line against the Los Angeles Sparks in overtime recently, they took the Phoenix Mercury to the last seconds. What do you think that Nikase is doing well with Golden State?
- [29:37]
Sabrina Merchant
When you watch the Valkyries play, there is a very clear identity of what they want to do. And maybe the shots go in all the time, maybe they don't, but they know how they want to play. And I think that is so impressive for a first year head coach. A team of players who have never really played together before, you know, they're, they're going to rebound the hell out of the ball, they're going to move the ball, they have excellent passers. Basically, like every possession on this team, they're going to get the threes up when it makes sense, like they're going to get those threes up. And I just think that a team that defends that well, that controls the glass and that, you know, takes high value shots, you're going to put yourself in position to win games. And yet they may have not won all of the close games that they've been in. But to have that blowout win, like you mentioned, against the Aces, to follow it up with, not a letdown against the Sparks, but another good win on the road, I think it's just really impressive that like there's a vision to the Valkyries. I watch them and I know what I'm going to see. Maybe it's a different person that's going to pop off. Maybe it's the Killer Thornton game, maybe it's a Janelle Salon game, but, but it's all within the same structure. And for that to have happened so quickly for an expansion team, I think is a real credit to Natalie, who, you know, has been an assistant a lot of places. I think her only head coaching experience is in Japan. But to have that right away as a first year WNBA head coach is super cool.
- [30:43]
Zena Kada
I agree. I mean, the fact that you can look at this team and know, oh, they care about defense and not only that, other teams are already picking up on it. Right. You would expect with an expansion team, like other teams being able to say they're still trying to figure themselves out, this is where we can exploit them or this is where we can take advantage of them and everyone knows, oh, no, no, no, they're going to swarm, they're going to dig in, they're going to make you feel very uncomfortable in the half court especially, and they're going to Try and get defense into offense. I think the other thing that has been so particularly impressive for me is that all of these players that are coming in, there's a lot of different type of styles. It's not as if she's just getting players from the W. From all over the WNBA that are coming into play. She's getting players from the WNBA and then players from overseas that she's coaching into a particular type of lane and type of vision and identity. And I think that that's really impressive how quickly she's been able to do that. I think the biggest challenge, Ben, is going to be what happens when you're a basket happens because she's losing. Of the 12 players that she basically locked in the season with, she's losing five. And yes, they're getting, you know, Letitia and me here and Ariel Powers, both of whom I'm very excited to see how they fit. But I think that is gonna be really interesting. And I'm curious, Ben and Sabrina, from what she did at the Aces, what she was known for at the Aces as an assistant, the things that she would do working with players individually and the team overall, what do you think is going to help her sustain the success, regardless of who's on her roster moving forward?
- [32:18]
Ben Pickman
Well, she was kind of asked a version of this question, actually, 10 days ago when she was kind of reflecting on what it means to have all these players going to Eurobasket, and she kind of said, like. Like, we just got the players in the door a month, a month ago, a month and a half ago to begin with. So, like, it's totally. You know, we obviously want these players to stay, but, like, we're kind of used to just saying, hey, you're in our locker room now. Like, let's bring you in, and, like, form some connectivity between everyone. Like, there are not enough. You know, they haven't been together long enough. They haven't established the years and years of history or the months and months of history together. So that, like, this transition is going to be so drastic. Like, I think in my mind, like, this is just kind of par for the course for the Valkyries right now, right? Like. Like a totally new group of players coming together. Rookies, veterans, figuring out lineups, figuring out rotations, doing it all for the first time. Like, sure, you know, Leticia, me, her, she was in training camp. Yeah, she wasn't there the last three weeks, last month of the season. But, like, she has more history than pretty much everyone around the league right now. And the coaching staff just by coming back in to me, you hit on this too. Like, Sabrina talked about some of the X's and O's and we should say like, Natalie Nikase is very competitive. Like, she wants to win basketball games and she like, you know, she is not going to reveal her secrets. She, like, she can get into the weeds. She is a very smart basketball mind. But to me, you hit it. Zena. Like the connectivity that this team has right away is what has stood out to me. That like this is a hodgepodge of players from all different parts of the league, all different parts of the world. And they have come together and they play like it seems like they really want to be there and they enjoy spending time around each other. That there is a connectivity that they have. I mean, she told me when they were in New York that like she used the phrase our energy is love. And she told me like one of the things, she's been pretty vulnerable with them a bunch throughout the season. She said she's cried many times in front of them and that like she was open about, you know, having a hard day after they wave players for the first time and needing her assistance to pick her up. It's a totally new staff that's coming together. Like we should say that too. So, you know, there is a lot that has just been thrown out at the Valkyries and at Natalie and Casa. I think they've handled it very well. If I can just tell one other story. They talk about creating chaos is one of the phrases that she has used a lot. And one of the ways she does that is in practices where sometimes she will just like, she'll put the first unit down by a certain amount during a scrimmage or she'll just like randomly switch the teams or she'll blast music out of nowhere to make it so, so loud. We'll see how people adapt. Those were all some of the things she did in training camp, I should say. But like that speaks to just like adapting and kind of going with the flow and that kind of feels like the vibe and you're around them, you know, more than me. Like, that seems like the vibe that I picked up on from spending some time around there and talking to other people there and then just watching them in person.
- [35:06]
Zena Kada
And not only that, I mean, she's jumping into these drills herself. Like, she is a very active hands on coach with these players from what I've seen. And I love what you're talk about. The energy is love because Kate Martin was on Sue Bird's Bird's eye view and she talked about how accountable and this goes back to the Carl Smesko, the open kind of endearing conversation type of thing where he asks questions. There's a similar through line here with Natalie Nikase constantly being like, this is my fault. This was on me. I didn't prepare you guys or I didn't do this. And that was what Kate Martin alluded to. And I think that that is always going to be very well respected from players when you're not throwing them under the bus, as you mentioned earlier, Ben, of being a coach and having that quality to being someone that takes the hit for their players and protects them in that way. Let's move over to the other side of the country for another coach that's doing another great job. Sidney Johnson, former Ivy League player, former men's college coach, assistant coach under Teresa Weatherspoon at the sky last season and now head coach of the Washington Mystics. Ben I mean I would love to just talk about the rookies all day long and how well and how confident he has them playing. My half baked take from a few weeks ago is looking real good in the oven. But I want to ask you what is in Johnson's toolbox that is really standing out to you?
- [36:28]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean it's similar to what we've talked about with the first two coaches. For me it is like it is ideas about culture and just the joy that players are playing with. And you know, certainly things are, you know, it is no surprise that players are happier when teams are winning, when you know they're playing well, that they're overperforming. But I think some of the words you hear a lot about like Sidney Johnson holding himself and the staff and players accountable. But like it's starting with him and the front office. You hear the word joy thrown out. You hear the word love thrown out. Like listen to Brittney Sykes and any number of her post game press conferences talk about Sidney Johnson and you will already see the kind of respect and admiration and affinity she has for him. You see these young players again, this was a franchise like not a lot of public expectations. Sidney Johnson, not a lot of people, you know, relatively like he's relatively unknown I guess in the WNBA space and that this is really his second season in the W. You know, he's done some three on three work with Team usa. He, you know, was the associate head coach at, at the Air Force Academy. He had been the head coach at Fairfield of the men's program for a while. But like he's still kind of, I guess, new to this space, all things considered, compared to some of his peers who have gotten hired and like, you know, he's jumped in. And again, players have clearly taken to him and the culture that they are creating. They're not going to win a championship this year. But if, again, you're judging it by, like, what is the experience these players are having plus results, it seems like things are going pretty well through the first month of the season.
- [37:55]
Zena Kada
You can just watch the broadcast and see how much they really like him, Sabrina, and just how well they respond to him. I'm thinking about the fact that we had Jamila Wideman, their gm, here on this podcast and talking about the future. And I'm very curious from the type of leader she is and being someone that is looking towards the future for this team, what do you think Jameela sees in Sydney that allows for good roots to be put down in Washington?
- [38:25]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, I think a lot of it is the developmental piece, right? Like, this is a Washington Mystics squad that did not sign a single external free agent this off season. Everyone they acquired was through the draft. So you're talking about Kiki Iriafen, Sonia Citron. Georgia Amor was supposed to be part of this process. She's out with a knee injury. Lucy Olson, even, like, they're still developing Shakira Austin and Aaliyah Edwards. You know, like, everything is with the future in mind. Like, they were trying to build a core now for the future and that meant that, like, they needed a coach who knew what he was doing in terms of player development. I think that's exactly what they've hit on. Right. Like, Kiki Irafen looks better against WNBA post players than she did against Big Ten ones. Like, it doesn't make any sense. So these situations looks as comfortable as any guard in the wnba. I mean, you know, they, they've won four games. They're. They're against like, Connecticut, Indiana without Caitlin Clark. Like, it's not the most impressive wins, but, like, the way that they're playing. They are competitive in a lot of these games and their players look like future foundational pieces. And I think that is the purpose of the season. That's why they brought him in. You know, it was a similar situation in Chicago last year where they were trying to develop a yet a lot of young players. And I think you saw a lot of growth with those sky players in 2024, that maybe they're missing some of that energy from Sidney Johnson this year. But the way the Mystics have Built this young foundation is just really impressive with so many young players. Enabling Brittany Sykes to be the leader that she wants to be is also a big part of how everything is working with the Mystics. She's talked a lot about how she's had to grow in terms of showing her emotions all the time and knowing that whatever she wears on her face, her younger teammates are going to see and calibrating that. And I think being able to manage like veterans who are a part of their career where maybe they want to win but also they want to learn different things and like emboldening Stephanie Dolson to be like the most impactful like single digit scorer in the WNBA and Bernie Sykes to do this later while simultaneously developing the young players. I think it's just a really cool balance of all of these different interests. And you know, kudos to the Mystics for identifying this in Sidney Johnson. But like I said, there are like two things you want to do as a WNBA coach and he's already won four games and developing a lot of young talent along the way.
- [40:26]
Zena Kada
There you go. I didn't mention this. The Valkyries are four and five at the time that we're recording this and the Washington Mystics are right beneath them. 4 and 6. I mean, very impressive work. Again, as you mentioned, balancing all of those different experience levels within this team. And I think that that is going to definitely, you know, bode well for the future of Washington. So let's keep it going. We're going to go down the ladder, you know, a couple rungs, a lot of rungs towards the bottom. Yes, we are at the floor. Okay, let's talk about some two teams. One we've already kind of touched on and another Chicago Sky, Tyler Marsh and Chris Kaquanis of the Dallas Wings. Now we talked a little bit earlier, Ben, about just how tough things have been for the Chicago Sky. I need you to kind of hit on what you're seeing Tyler Marsh trying to do in the midst of some of these blowouts you've seen in person, but also just the regular games that they've had throughout this season. What are you seeing with Tyler Marsh?
- [41:24]
Ben Pickman
Well, I think like he, he's installing a new system. He's trying to keep the players together. He's got a new coaching staff. You know, Tyler was a super well regarded assistant. He's coached, you know, he has NBA experience coaching for working for some of the best coaches in the NBA. Becky Hammond in the wnba, he's super well respected around the league. Like a home run higher and the kind of coach that like teams around the league would have hired this year, next year, the year after, had he still been available. So we should say all that. I think like, when we look at Tyler and Chris Go Clanis in Dallas, it's a lot of the same things. It's like new rosters, it's, you know, some injuries, it is some blowout losses, it's new staffs. Like, these are teams that they're just not clicking fully. And I know we acknowledge the Ariel Atkins, Angel Reese moment and the connectivity between them, but I do still think like, again, it's easier when you're winning. Like these are teams that are clearly working through identity, relationships, connectivity, new systems. Like, there's a lot of new and the newness feels just like that. And I think, you know, they're both first year head coaches that are trying to adapt to the role as well. And you know, Tyler kind of said it after the Chicago loss, like, like as an assistant you have the luxury to just make suggestions and not make decisions. And now you slide into the head chair and like, it's all on you. I also think right now, like there's more scruny on coaches maybe than there has ever been before. Like we wrote about this back in the fall and I recommend people reading it. One of the reasons behind all the firing, you know, the blitz of firing was just like owners finally really caring about like the WNBA team that they own and front offices really like having this pressure. And I do think right now they're under a lot of external pressure. And for them, I think one of the big challenges is blocking out all the noise and really caring about those people in the locker room to try and get out of all that is going on.
- [43:23]
Zena Kada
Makes sense. A lot of newness, a lot of ironing out that needs to happen. And I'm happy you set up the Tyler Marsh hire of where he came from, the pedigree that he enters this role because that pedigree isn't quite the same for Chris Kahanis, at least at the WNBA level. But Chris Klanis has WNBA experience too. He was with Connecticut sun while they were going on, you know, a run. I think Tyler Marsh had just been with the Las Vegas Aces as they won championships. They seem very similar, I guess. Right. But there hasn't been enough talk about Chris Klanis being in the W2. I feel like people keep referring to him as like, he came from USC and it's like, no, no, no. He also has this, this lineage that comes from, you know, A well producing WNBA team. So Sabrina, tell me a little bit about his history, how he got into this role and what he's bringing to this team that is currently last in the league at 1 and 9.
- [44:21]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, so Chris spent nearly a decade with, I wouldn't say nearly a decade. He was, he was in various roles on the Connecticut sun before being an assistant coach for about five years under Kurt Miller and then joining him in Los Angeles before spending a year under Lindsey Gottlieb at usc. This is USC team that made the Elite Eight and then coming back to the WNBA as a head coach for the first time. So a lot of WNBA time. Two of his assistants were also on the Sparks and spent time with the Connecticut sun and Nola Henry and Camille Smith and then it's actually kind of a lovely story. His sister is one of the assistants on his staff as well who has a coaching history of her own, though not in wnba. But like you mentioned, Tyler Marsh has the two titles, which gives him, I think, a leg up in terms of the hiring process. Him and Natalie Nicase both benefited from that. Chris Kokanis does not have the titles, but the Connecticut sun teams are very good and they made the championship multiple times if you know, falling short on those occasions. So I think there's no doubt about his WNBA pedigree. And you know, you would see national broadcast zoom in on a Connecticut sun huddle and there Chris Kilkennis be drawing up a play even though it was Kurt Miller's team. So this is somebody who's been gearing up for a head coaching job and like Tyler is just in a situation where I think the front office is a little bit of a head of where the roster is. Like these are teams that will probably be benefit from trying to go the Washington path of developing this year and focusing on what they have internally rather than bringing in all these external free agents. And it hasn't quite worked out the way that they would have hoped in either situation. You have, you know, a number one option theoretically in Angel. Reese Enrique performing much less efficiently than you would hope for. The defense is just a mess on both sides. The like both teams, the turnovers are a mess on both teams and lots of injuries on both sides too. So when things go wrong in the wnba, there's usually reasons for it, right? It's, it's a matter of injuries. It's a matter of like the roster doesn't make sense together. And I think, you know, you're seeing that in Dallas where Chris is just throwing everything at the wall. Like they've tried multiple different starting lineups. They've tried moving Maddie Segregal on multiple positions by Aisha Hines Allen, multiple positions. Melissa spits a five sometimes. Sometimes she's like barely playing off the bench. You know, there's a lot of experimentation, I would say, for this early in the season, which suggests to me that this is a team that doesn't quite make sense yet. And it's a very hard situation to step into as a first year head coach. But I mean, you look at the teams that are very successful in WNBA lore and they tend to have a lot of top picks on their rosters. And Dallas just got their first one last year and you know, Chicago got theirs in 2024. So more talent, I think needs to come in to make these more stable situations. And it is hard to judge the coaches based on 10 games of mismatched rosters, you know, but to be fair, like, things have not gone well so far and that is also a reflection of them and they need to be better in addition to their players being better.
- [46:54]
Zena Kada
Agreed, agreed. And I think the biggest reason I call that out is because I've seen a lot on social media about Chris Kahlanis, like where they get this guy. And it's like, I understand why you're ask. You're saying that if you haven't been watching the WNBA before last season, but he has this pedigree guys and he's capable, but they just got to figure it out and got to be better. As Sabrina mentioned before we wrap up, I do want to quickly hit on Lynn Roberts out in la. They're currently three of seven at the time that we're recording this just took a tough overtime loss against the Valkyries. And then Rashid Mezian, two of seven, second bottom to last in the league or second from the bottom in the league. Both of them have very different backgrounds. Obviously. Lynn Roberts coming from Utah, similar to Carl Smesko and having an ideal of an offensive identity, I guess in college. And then Rashid Mejan coming from overseas in a first American role. Before we go, Sabrina, I just really wanted to quickly touch on the last two coaches. Lynn Roberts, Rashid Mezian, two very different experiences coming into the wnba. One from overseas, another from the college system. What are your thoughts on how they've been performing so far?
- [48:04]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, so Lynn Roberts sort of comes in with a similar Carlson Mesco pedigree in terms of that offensive approach. And you've seen the Sparks offense get a lot better. Unfortunately, their defense has not gotten A lot better. And, you know, their defensive system, to me looks like a system that requires a rim protector who can cover up a lot of mistakes. And luckily they have that player coming back soon. So I'm going to wait for, you know, the full evaluation on the Sparks until we can see what they look like. With Cameron Brink and then with Rashid Mezian, you know, he's hired before Alyssa Thomas leaves, before Dewana Bonner leaves, before Bree Jones, you know, before Tishna Carrington, an entirely different job he's basically signing up for. So to be coaching that team in the midst of all this turnover with, you know, the outstanding trade request with Marina Mabry, a roster that, to be frank, is just not as talented as the other rosters in the wnba while the organization is going through this period of, you know, potentially selling and moving. And then he is coaching in the United States for the very first time, you know, with the language barrier and a new city and all that entails. Another one that I prefer to reserve some judgment on because I think I've seen some good things out of Connecticut. But also it's just so hard to evaluate with this entire context of change that he has been thrust into.
- [49:06]
Zena Kada
Absolutely. I don't even know if his family's over here yet. I know that's one of the things he mentioned was waiting for his kids to finish school before having them come over. So lots of new in his world for sure.
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- [51:11]
Zena Kada
It's Friday, y' all, so that means it's time to set your screen. Presented by BetMGM. As we know, we gotta pay some bills, so let me go ahead and say this. BetMGM make a fast break on court action with a WNBA odds boost token. Use your token to get a bigger payout on a winning WNBA bet now. Ben, Serena, I feel like there's just one game. Our screens are going to be set to this weekend. Okay. I think there's some redemption games that are happening we gotta see. You know, how are the Aces bouncing back? They got some games throughout this weekend or throughout this week, of course, but are they gonna start building? I think that's definitely gonna be something to look out for, but I'm looking for title type of odds. You know, I'm looking for who's really wearing the crown in the wnba and I feel like I have an idea of what game that is. But Sabrina, I'll let you go first. Who you thinking about?
- [52:03]
Sabrina Merchant
I mean, since you've done such a great job of setting it up, I would say Liberty Fever on Saturday is the one that I have my eye on. Round one was super, super fun. Assuming Caitlin Clark is back for this one, which made the mistake in my power rankings of assuming she'd be back by Tuesday, that was incorrect. Hopefully she's back by Saturday to play against Liberty. Otherwise I retract this entire statement. But yeah, just two of the better teams in the WNBA at full health. Obviously, you know, the way they performed the first time around was so exciting that I think the encore should be just as good.
- [52:34]
Zena Kada
I'm. I'm with you, Ben. What are your thoughts?
- [52:37]
Ben Pickman
I mean, I'll go a different game. I'm going to. You teased out the Las Vegas Aces. They play they host the Phoenix Mercury on Sunday evening and that's a pretty big game because we'll see who from the Phoenix Mercury is playing in that game in terms of health. Their injury report list has been very long throughout this season and cleaning up, though, it is cleaning up. But this is a big game because what are we getting from Las Vegas Aces against good teams like how are they rebounding from the blowout loss to the Golden State Valkyries? It is a looming question. It's something that people are wondering that they're asking about, that they're talking about. You know, they wave Crystal Bradford a reserve on Wednesday afternoon. Maybe there are more roster changes that are going to happen. Who really knows? Just a lot of questions there and this is a good test for that team as they look to, you know, rechart the path they are on this season.
- [53:27]
Zena Kada
Okay, I love it. I definitely have my eye out on the New York Liberty Indiana Fever, but I'm going to add one more and I want to see how those rookies go up against Atlanta and Washington. I think, you know, Washington and Atlanta are going to face off on Sunday and I just want to see what they're looking like. It's been a really fun year watching Sonia and Kiki particularly go off all right, I guess we got a lot of games to set our screens to, but yeah, I think very much so is going to be can the Fever take the crown off of New York Liberty at least for one game? That will be all for it today for the show. We appreciate you guys listening. Also, I got to give a great shout out to Amy and Tammy twins down in South Bay that came up to me at the Valkyries game before the Aces got blown out and told me they really enjoy the show. Shout out to everyone that listens down there and anyone and everyone that's across the country appreciating what we're doing for women's basketball. We appreciate you listening and we just love the support. So thank you. Before we go, quick reminder. Subscribe to this show wherever you're listening. Spotify, YouTube, Apple, podcasts, you name it. Even you know, subscribe your mom, even if she doesn't know, like do it for her because I feel like people don't know that we are something that you should be sharing. Sharing is caring folks. So subscribe people around you as well. We definitely want to get people involved. Leave us a comment, write us an email, come up to us, say hello, tell us you like us. We love it. It makes us feel good. And of course head over to our partner at Yahoo. Sports hub. More content sports.yahoo.com womens-sports on behalf of the Athletic, I'm Zena Keda. Thank you guys so much for listening and we'll see you next time. No Off Season is hosted by Zena Cata with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producers are Andrea B. Scott and Cassius Fleming. Our theme music is by Marcus Bagala. Monica Compton is our video editor. Shannon Ryan is managing editor of Women's basketball at the Athletic. Jessie Burton is our head of audio and Tim McMaster is director of Audio operations. How can you free your team from time consuming office tasks? Amazon Business empowers leaders to not only streamline purchasing, but better support their teams. Smart business buying tools enable buyers to find and purchase items items fast so they can focus on strategy and growth. It's time to free up your teams and focus on your future. Learn more about the technology, insights and.
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