Why the WNBA Keeps Creating PR Nightmares

Summary

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Podcast Summary

Podcast: No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
Episode: Why the WNBA Keeps Creating PR Nightmares
Date: June 30, 2026
Hosts: Zena Keita, Annie Costabile, Sabrina Merchant

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Episode Overview

This episode dives into the current state of the WNBA as both on-court play and off-court narratives collide, prompting a widespread discussion about the league’s persistent public relations (PR) challenges. The hosts analyze a pivotal and controversial week: historic games, breakout performances, discourse around officiating, and the toxicity of narratives shaped by media and social media, particularly surrounding Caitlin Clark, Alyssa Thomas, player treatment, and league leadership. The episode concludes with a preview of the Commissioner's Cup Final and a frank conversation about how the league and those who cover it can recenter the focus on basketball and bring the fun back.

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Notable Game & Performance Recaps

1. Marathon Thriller: Portland Fire vs. Washington Mystics (4 OTs)

• [02:18] Zena recounts "the most ridiculous game I have ever seen," a four-overtime battle ending with a 1-point Mystics win.
• Key Players:
  • Carla La (clutch shooting after a tough previous season)
  • Bridget Carlton (big plays in regulation and overtime)
• Bench rotations and exhaustion became major factors.
  • Quote, Annie: “Four overtimes in, you’re like depleted. And so defense, you’re just like, what defense?” [04:34]
  • Sabrina: Questions coaches’ reluctance to use deeper bench players. [04:41]

2. Record Night: Marina Mabrey’s 53-point Game

• [05:09] Marina Mabrey ties the WNBA single-game scoring record (Liz Cambage, A’ja Wilson).
• Unique Moment: She had no idea she was setting records due to lack of an in-arena scoreboard. [06:29]
• Defensive Lapses: Toronto’s lack of game plan allows Mabrey to “exploit any gap” (Annie, [09:10]).
• Sabrina’s Spark Critique: Sparks' defensive failings are fueling the league’s offensive surge: “That is obscene... offense is just off the charts.” [08:15]

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Team Trends & Analysis

1. Chicago Sky: Trending Up (But with Caveats)

• Historic Game: Camille Cardoso sets WNBA record for most FGs without a miss (13/13); Sky logs record 38 assists in one game. [11:20]
• Development: Cardoso’s growth seen as critical for the Sky’s future.
  • Annie: “The Sky’s future hinges upon Camila Cardoso.” [16:23]
• Limitations: Still struggle in clutch moments and against top teams (e.g., tough loss to Connecticut).
• Sidney Taylor’s Impact: Emergence as a creator “forced her way into the starting lineup.” (Sabrina, [12:59])

2. Golden State Valkyries: Defensive Powerhouse

• [19:49] Valkyries jump to #3 in power rankings, having swept the Liberty and stifled Atlanta.
• Defensive Identity: Not just talent, but synchronized rotations and “moving on a string.”
  • Sabrina: “It never looks like they’re making mistakes defensively… when you get a shot, it’s because they have decided that is the best possible outcome.” [21:31]
• Offensive Depth: Unlikely top scorers (Kyla Charles off the bench) showcase team versatility.

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Key Discussion: WNBA's Recurring PR Nightmares and Media Narratives

1. The Clark-Thomas Moment and Media Fallout

• [28:34] The hosts intentionally avoid rehashing the on-court incident between Caitlin Clark and Alyssa Thomas, focusing instead on the broader discourse.
• Two Dominant (Toxic) Narratives:
  1. League is “stacked against Clark”; players, refs not protecting her.
  2. League plagued by racism, homophobia, misogyny—exacerbated by how incidents are covered.

2. Trust and Leadership Failures

• Based on Siurat Sohi’s Ringer piece: WNBA’s biggest PR problem is the gap between the vibrant, positive inside atmosphere and the toxic outside narratives (“gulf between how good it feels to be a WNBA fan and how toxic the league seems from the outside looking in”). [28:46]
• Officiating Issues: Reactive, not proactive, leadership and officiating inflames narratives instead of quelling them.
  • Annie: “Everyone debating whether or not this was a serious foul… anytime there's contact made to the neck, the throat… that needs to be looked at.” [33:24]
  • Sabrina: “It’s always requiring these big, high-profile messes that they have to clean up in order to move forward.” [35:55]
• Host Frustration: “Does the league like the attention of these controversies?” - Annie [35:56]

3. Social Media Toxicity and Player Safety

• Waves of Online Abuse: Both hosts and players face harassment; WNBA must do more to “prepare and protect their players.” [41:54]
  • Annie: “Do the players feel protected? That’s just the question that needs to be answered. You’re never gonna be able to get rid of it. But do the players feel protected?” [41:38]
• Need for League Response: No visible “No Space For Hate” messaging since last year, even as attacks on players worsen. [45:47]

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The Caitlin Clark Narrative and American Biases

1. Media Biases & Racial Undertones

• [49:46] Christine Brennan’s USA Today piece criticized for describing WNBA players as “jealous, disdainful, and outright hateful” of Clark—a theme the hosts dissect as racist and deeply damaging.
  • Zena: “This is the toxic storyline… that black women in the league should be grateful for Caitlin Clark’s arrival.” [50:18]
• Desi Cortez’s LA Progressive essay is quoted: “The WNBA’s Caitlin Clark problem is really America’s black woman problem.” [60:12]

2. Misogyny & Double Standards

• On Expectations for Women Athletes:
  • Sabrina: “That’s not how professionals comport with one another… nobody’s going out of their way to say, I’m thankful that [player X] exists,” referencing double standards for female players. [55:21]

3. How Narratives Damage the League’s Experience

• Crowding Out the Basketball: Both critical and supportive narratives around Clark have “made it not fun” for all involved.
• Challenge: The hosts emphasize the need to celebrate Clark’s talent and growth without erasing the league’s history or other stars’ achievements.

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How to Make the League "Fun" Again

1. Focus on Basketball & Real Stories

• Annie: "We owe it... to cover this league as a league, as a sport... the focus [should be] on the basketball, the storylines around the game." [66:27]
• Push back on trolling, center authentic W coverage

2. Encourage Positive Storytelling

• Sabrina: “There's so many entertaining sports stories… we’ll try to direct you to all the fun stuff.” [69:06]

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Commissioner's Cup Final Preview

[72:03] - End

• Teams: New York Liberty vs. Las Vegas Aces, at Barclays Center
• Trend: Losing the Commissioner’s Cup often means winning the title (Liberty/Aces 2023, Liberty/Lynx 2024).
  • Sabrina (stat): “Of the five years we've had a Commissioner’s Cup, 9/10 participants have made the semifinals.” [73:22]
• Key Factors:
  • Liberty fatigued after tough travel schedule and injuries (Satu Sabs out).
  • Aces may be fresher with Kennedy Carter returning; favorable rest.
• Hosts’ Predictions: All hosts lean toward the Aces, but acknowledge Liberty could surprise.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments (with Timestamps)

• “Four overtimes in, you’re like depleted. And so defense, you’re just like, what defense?” — Annie, [04:34]
• “It’s always requiring these big, high-profile messes that they have to clean up in order to move forward.” — Sabrina, [35:55]
• “Do the players feel protected? That's just the question that needs to be answered. You’re never gonna be able to get rid of it. But do the players feel protected?” — Annie, [41:38]
• “This is the toxic storyline that continues to pervade… these black women in the league should be grateful for Caitlin Clark’s arrival.” — Zena, [50:18]
• “That's not how professionals comport with one another… nobody’s going out of their way [to thank competitors]” — Sabrina, [55:21]
• “We owe it… to cover this league as a league, as a sport… focus being on the basketball.” — Annie, [66:27]

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Key Timestamps by Topic

• [02:18] Four OT thriller: Portland vs. Washington Mystics
• [05:09] Marina Mabrey’s 53-point game
• [11:20] Camille Cardoso, Chicago Sky’s historic night
• [19:49] Golden State Valkyries’ defensive identity
• [28:34] Start of Clark-Thomas/narrative discussion
• [41:54] Player safety and online abuse
• [49:46] Christine Brennan/major media criticism dissected
• [60:12] Desi Cortez quote—race and league narratives
• [66:27] Discussion: How to make the WNBA fun again
• [72:03] Commissioner’s Cup preview

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Episode Takeaways

• The WNBA’s “PR nightmares” are less about individual incidents than about longstanding cultural, racial, and gendered narratives that media and social media amplify when league leadership acts reactively, not proactively.
• The on-court product—thrillers, record-setting performances—remains top-tier, but is too often overshadowed by external framing.
• The path forward: Center basketball, amplify positive stories, and pressure the WNBA to proactively support and protect its players—on the court and off.

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Transcript

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[Annie Costable]

the social media discourse is a cesspool. It's disturbing, it's disgusting. It's not a real place. And depending on who you are, you're dealing with varying degrees of this. Okay? And so the WNBA is is never going to be able to remove every racist, sexist comment from the Zeitgeist. That's not an option. But what they can do is not only better prepare their players, but also better protect their players.

[Zena Caida]

Hello everyone and welcome to no Off Season. I'm Zena Caida.

[Annie Costable]

I'm Annie Costable.

[Sabrina Merchant]

And I'm Sabrina Merchant.

[Zena Caida]

And today on the show, it seems we've reached that point in the WNBA season where the on court play and the online chatter collide, exploding into a million little problematic, sometimes toxic, sometimes productive, but all in the mix. Pieces, think pieces and opinion pieces and all the things in between. So we're exploring what the moment between Caitlin Clark and Alyssa Thomas has brought about and all the different ideas about how to fix what's wrong with the wnba. Plus everything you need to know about the Commissioners Cup Final between the Liberty and the Aces happening tonight. But first I am going to go ahead and apologize because yeah, my energy is a little low as you can Tell I am sick. And it is that point of the season where Annie and Sabrina and all the people that cover the WNBA are flying back and forth trying to get you that coverage. So I apologize in advance if I sound a little stuffed up. But now let's get into these games. And what a weekend it was. I was pathetically on my couch after I came back from Atlanta watching the most ridiculous game I have ever seen. A thriller four overtime game between the Portland Fire and the Washington Mystics ending in a one point Mystics win. And I'm not gonna lie. Yes, I did look up the rules. I did, I did look up the manual to see if there were limits on overtime. Of course there is not. Um, Sabrina, Annie, either one of you guys able to catch that one?

[Annie Costable]

I caught the very end of it.

[Zena Caida]

Insane. Carla La. I mean, for the person that at one point last season was shooting 13% from three. I mean, that shot at the end of the game to even. I mean, she kept putting them back into position. Bridget Carlton and Carla, you're talking about the regulation one. The regulation one or the one that tipped? Yeah, the regulation one.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah. Okay.

[Zena Caida]

And then Bridger Carlton in overtime. I mean, they were insane. And it was kind of sad because Portland just kept losing folks to foul trouble in the overtime. And I mean they were, they were finding ways to make it happen. But did you guys feel like the e. The defense was just a little too lax in overtime? Like, people just kept getting to the basket pretty easily.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I mean, at a certain point, I

[Annie Costable]

think at that point in the game you're like exhausted.

[Zena Caida]

Fair.

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[Annie Costable]

You know, four overtimes in, you're like depleted. And so defense, you're just like, what defense?

[Sabrina Merchant]

I mean, I was kind of surprised that it goes, what, an extra 20 minutes of extra game time and you're still seeing these two coaches refuse to go deeper into their benches. Like, not a minute for Cass Prosper or Rory Harmon or Holly Winterburn. Right. Like, you think you could have just used like, I don't know, a little bit of a steady hand, especially when Georgia Amore goes out. And maybe you could use another point guard. Or Cass Prosper is just like this fountain of chaotic energy. Like, I think I would want some of that. The best way to play in these extra sessions.

[Zena Caida]

Even Sony Citron, like there was a moment where you're like, is she cramping? Is she okay? Like, even the announcer was like, is she good? And then all of a sudden she just scores a layup and you're just like, yeah, Okay, I guess she's fine. No, that was insane. And the way that this was, like, talked about was like they played a game and a half and I think the announcers at one point were like, well, you know, all the people that play aau. I played three games in a day. It's like. And I was thinking that, I was thinking as I was watching this game, it was like, I used to play like five games a day, five regular, like full time games in a day in front of coaches and be like, I'm stretching. Yes, coach, our electrolytes. We're ready for game four of the day. And now, like, thinking about the intensity of that game. Really well done for Washington to be able to pull it out. They. I think they needed that win. But insane performance by the two of them. Okay, speaking of insane performances, Annie and I got to talk a little bit about this on our live stream on Friday. Sabrina feels like when you take a little break, WNBA just wants to go crazy. Uh, and Marina Mabry went crazy, dropping 53, tying the WNBA single game record for most points. Liz Cambage, Asia Wilson, Marina Mabry. That is the list. What did you think about that performance?

[Sabrina Merchant]

I thought it was so interesting listening to Marina's post game where she said, we don't have like a stat board at the Coca Cola Coliseum. So I had no idea how many points I had. And that was such a strange thing to hear, like, you know, post that. Oh, like she's not just keeping track like everybody says. Like, they don't look at their stats. Yeah, they're like in the flow of the game. Whatever they know, like, there's a box score, there's a jumbotron. There's something that's telling them, like, oh, I have 26 points in the first half or whatever the number is. And Rena literally didn't know. And it takes like her sister Michaela Mabry on the sideline being like, girl, you need three more points. Like, get back in the game.

[Zena Caida]

Crazy. I missed that. I didn't know she. She said that. And that is Coca Cola. Work on that. Um, but that's amazing that she. The focus was there regardless. She was just like in the zone, like the definition.

[Sabrina Merchant]

It felt so much like the unrivaled game. I know you guys brought this up last week, but I mean, I think she had 27 points in the first quarter of that game, which keep in mind, those are 7 minute quarters versus the 10 minute quarters that she gets here. But it just, it was so in the flow, right? Like none of it felt forced whatsoever. Second time, right in three games that she's hit nine three pointers, which another tied WNBA record. I think that one's going to get broken this year. Just like the amount of times we've seen people approach this nine three pointer mark recently. I mean, Marina, did it break?

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Yeah.

[Zena Caida]

Insane.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I mean, I thought that like it'd be easier to defend what Toronto was doing because before you had to keep an eye on Slim and you had to keep an eye on Marina and now Brittany Sykes is out with this injury, you'd think you'd focus all of your defensive attention on Marina. And again, like it makes perfect sense that it happened against this particular team.

[Zena Caida]

I was gonna say.

[Annie Costable]

Yeah, I was gonna say what defensive attention.

[Zena Caida]

We were like, well, well, well, well. Yeah.

[Sabrina Merchant]

The Sparks went through a stretch when they played Toronto and Indiana this past week where they gave up 182 points in six quarters. That is more than three points per minute. That is obscene. Like I wrote in the power rankings today about how offense is just like off the charts. I think like the Sparks and possibly the Portland Fire are like responsible for 60% of this offensive upswing. It is ridiculous what they are allowing in these games. Like, what else are you trying to guard against, Ron? I realize Marina just doing all kinds of things. She had this one crazy step back to her left in the first quarter. Stan Van Dundy I think did an awesome job of pointing that out. Side note, I love that Amazon broadcast. It was fantastic. But like, I just don't understand what the plan was. Isn't all of your effort trying to defend this one volume score for the Toronto Tempo and she still goes off for 53.

[Zena Caida]

People are flying.

[Annie Costable]

I heard. I think it speaks to also like Marina's shot. Right. Like she is so good at. If you give her a little bit of space, her trigger is so quick. Like that's all it takes. And so yes, it seems like the obvious question is where the hell was the defense? You had. You had literally one assignment.

[Sabrina Merchant]

One assignment.

[Annie Costable]

But Marina, Marina does a fantastic job of exploiting any gap that you give her. And I think that's what she did a really good job of against the Sparks.

[Zena Caida]

Agree.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I mean, I remember thinking it was such a great job by the Sparks to get her in the 2019 WNBA draft, like second round pick. She's one of those five players from that Notre Dame two time. They didn't win two titles. They got to the title game two years in a row. Five players drafted from that team in that draft. And it seemed like such an easy win. And then they traded her for just another late pick in the 2020 off season. And it was just one of the saddest days. And I couldn't figure out for the life of me what they were thinking. And it has just spawned this six year stretch of Xena. I mean, you know, this is Sabrina asking what are the Sparks thinking? The culmination of that Marina Mabry.

[Zena Caida]

And you know what's so sad is we literally started this season, I think we. Or yeah, this season of potting. Talking about the sparks saying they were working on it this off season. That defense was a focal point where.

[Sabrina Merchant]

And I wanted to point out that I didn't believe it.

[Zena Caida]

You did. You did call that out. And you're like, we'll see. We'll see what's going on there. Well, we've seen. And Marina Mabry took full advantage.

[Sabrina Merchant]

That's why they're number 15 in the bout ranking.

[Zena Caida]

There you go. Okay, well, that's exactly what I wanted to bring up. My voice is looking suspect right now. So I'm not gonna sing the Sabrina scale this week. But it is here, y'. All. And you got the Sabrina Power RA rankings on the site. They're the same. Don't. Just saying that one more time. They are the same. Two teams trending up. Ha ha. My neck of the woods. The Golden State Valkyries and the Chicago Sky. Let's dig into the sky first because I hit up the group chat this weekend and I was like, y' all got some thoughts? Okay. Now, Sabrina, of course, always rational was like, well, Chicago played at home. Okay. And they also played one of the bottom teams of the league twice in the. In the span. But if you guys watch that Chicago sky game versus the Aces, that is what spurred my thoughts. They were right there with them for a while throughout this game and giving them some. Some tough competition. But let's just be real. When Jackie Young is shooting the way she was coming off screens and Asia's doing what she's doing and Chelsea Gray is seeing people in the ways that I didn't think eyes could see, it's just. There's not. There's not a ton you can do. Oh, yeah. And then Kennedy Carter came back. That was. There was a lot going on for the Aces overall, but I still think Chicago looked good against them and they look good. Making history on Friday night, Camille Cardoso had a career high for herself. She also had a WNBA record for most amount of field goals in a game without a missed basket. So 13 of 13, she went from the floor and. And they set a WNBA record, the Chicago sky, for the amount of. Most amount of assists in one game with 38. So there's a lot of good things happening, even if it's at home, even if it's against the Portland Fire. I like the way Chicago's looking. They're trending upwards. To me. I'm so, I, I was happy to see Sabrina. You're seeing some good things too.

[Sabrina Merchant]

It was such a strange week for so many WNBA teams because I, you know, I mentioned Chicago trending up because they have those two wonderful offensive performances against Portland. Then like you said, right in it with Vegas this week also started with them just getting the boots knocked off them by Connecticut.

[Zena Caida]

That was a rough one.

[Annie Costable]

Oh my God.

[SoFi Personal Loan Announcer]

Oh my God.

[Zena Caida]

That was a rough one. Yeah. On Monday.

[Sabrina Merchant]

And yeah. So for all of those things to happen in the same seven day span, it's hard to reconcile all of it because yeah, they, I mean they only went two and two and their two wins were against Portland at home. So how much was actually working? But I think so, you know, like you said, just the, the experience of watching them really has changed from the start of the season. Like they went through a stretch of about 12 games, you know, once Rekia Jackson got injured where they had one win in that time period and it was incidentally against Connecticut. But now they've actually like start to look like the vision I think Jeff Pagliaka had during the off season where they have a lot of athletes, they have a lot of, a lot of spacing actually to the point where like they can decide whether they want to play Rachel Bannon, whether they want to play more J.C. sheldon. Like there are options in terms of their shooters. And this is even in a stretch where Gabriella Hawkes hasn't really been hitting because Azari Stevens is starting to find her shot again. They have a big rotation that makes sense, you know, spacer and Azeray, big dominant force inside in Camilla. And then Elizabeth Williams fills in those backup minutes where she's just another bruising force inside. Lots of playmaking now that Courtney Vandersloot's back. You know, she just honestly looks incredible for coming off of an ACL this intro, like at this age. Kudos to Courtney Mannersloot. She looks awesome. But yeah, like there's just a lot of pieces that make sense together. I still think they're way too far in the standings to actually make a meaningful playoff push, but at least you can kind of start to see like what was going on here, like what the vision was. And so much of it to me is actually Sidney Taylor, like having a two guard who can create her own shot. Just nobody on the team had that particular skill set. Like, they've got a lot of people who facilitate, a lot of people who can score inside, but like somebody who can hit a pull up jumper or like drive to the basket like some of those floaters she was hitting with Asia as the closest defender or really, really impressive. And for her to just be like a minimum training camp contract and to make the roster and have this kind of impact that she forced her way into the starting lineup a third of the way into the season, it's really, really impressive.

[Zena Caida]

It's like a little bit bigger. Skylar, especially earlier in her years of just like being able to create, being able to get inside, very fearless in the way, like, you can tell she is a confident player and that's exactly what you need in the midst of the fact that there is a ton of playmaking. I mean, it was crazy to watch, you know, Slooped Skyler and Natasha cloud play the 1, 2, 3. You've got all star point guards all playing the 1, 2, 3. But you need someone that can be able to like hit some shots. And in that mix, Skylar was the shot maker. But you take Skylar out, you put in city Taylor and now you've got someone that's like, has a nose for the ball, but particularly a nose to score. And you're absolutely right. That high low with Azaray, it opens things up. Like Annie, when you think about Chicago, I was looking at it and I was like, they look like Atlanta is supposed to look like low key. They are shooting and they've got a target inside. And we haven't seen, of course we've seen Atlanta now drop three games in a row. They lost twice against Golden State and then lost to Seattle. Um, but in that, in the stretch that we've seen Chicago play, they've done what we've expected out of a team like Atlanta, of just having that size. How big is this for Camila Cardoso or how important is it for Camila Cardoso to be able to be. Continue to be that target and also for them to continue to have shooting outside. For them to continue this upward trend.

[Annie Costable]

Yeah, well, for it to work with Camila, you have to have that outside shooting. Giving her that space is everything. But then when you think about Camila, I mean, we've talked about this, I feel like at length, the biggest key for Chicago sky success is Camila Cardoso's consistency and the development of Camila Cardoso. And she made history the other night with the most efficient shooting night in WNBA history. She went, what, 13 for 13 it was. And so the W, or excuse me, the Chicago Skies future hinges upon Camila Cardoso. You said as much when you traded Angel Reese, when you drafted Camila number three and you drafted angel number seven. Like, that's what you were saying when you made that decision. So I think to see Camila have this success in this way over this, like, brief season stint does a ton for her confidence. And we heard Courtney Vandersloot talk about it post game and saying, like, this is what we expect out of Camila. This is what we expect to continue to see out of Camila. And so I think that consistency from Camilla is everything. When you talk about the future success of the Chicago Sky. And I mean, even in this game against the Aces, the Sky outscored the aces 54 to 38 in the paint. Like, that's.

[Zena Caida]

That's a big.

[Annie Costable]

That's not. That's a big number. And where they got beat was at the free throw line. Like, the Aces shot. I think double the attempts are made. I should say, double the attempts that the sky made. And so I think, again, it's all about consistency. And the other aspect for the sky is about their clutch minutes. I mean, that has killed them. And when you talk about making. Making a meaningful playoff push, there are games that they should not have lost. And had they not lost them, I think we would be having a different conversation about the likelihood of them making a meaningful playoff push.

[Zena Caida]

One more question before we jump off of the Sky. Really great points there. And also, I think I was someone that forgot where Camila was drafted. I'm not even gonna lie in the midst of all of the craziness. So. And the storylines from last year. So that's a really great point. Point of, you know, what Jeff Paglioka is focused on, even though. Did he draft her?

[Annie Costable]

Okay.

[Zena Caida]

I just wanted to make sure that was the first draft. Okay. I just want to make sure. Do we have any word about Dijonay Carrington?

[Annie Costable]

The latest that I've heard is that she was. When they signed her, there was an expectation that she would be back before the All Star break, and that's the latest that I've heard. And now, obviously, we're coming up closer to that All Star break, and she's still not back, so. And the other thing, too, is, like, the timeline for Foot Injuries of that nature are difficult because they take a ton of time to heal, and even when they do, they can still be tricky to. To play on, to play through. So I would say there's still a ton of uncertainty there in regards to when she'll be fully back.

[Zena Caida]

Okay, we'll see if they can continue to find some, you know, good pieces and kind of string together a lot of good games. I still think, even though I know there's no moral victories, y', all, but I do think that that Aces game was good for them to be able to showcase different lineups, different, and continue to move with Sloot into the mix. Now, what does that look like? All right, let's move it to the Valkyries, who have cracked number three. Top three in your power ranking.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Sabrina.

[Zena Caida]

Okay, they're up from number five to number three. They beat the Liberty on Sunday night at Ballhall, a magical place. Um, as Sidney Coulson would say, there's some witchcraft, there's some. Something going on and sorcery happening in Valhalla because power is zapped. And it's true. They zapped Atlanta's power two nights in a row and then did the same thing to New York. And they won 76, 67, holding the Liberty to under 70 points for the second time this season. Now, remember, they played earlier, I think it was May 15th earlier this season, and in New York, remember, they. The Valkyries beat the Liberty. So now they swept the season series earlier this season, and it was still a competitive game. And I remember Stewie coming out of that game being like this was, I think in that three game stretch that they had lost that they were pretty upset of. Like, we're not playing to our standard. We're not, you know, doing what we're supposed to do. So in the way that Stewie and the Liberty were talking about that game, they made it seem like it was a fluke. Like they had, you know, they were just in a down period, and now you go to Valhalla and you're still held under 70 points, and you lose this game again. Now, now, you can't call it a fluke. This is who the Valkyries are in terms of being able to hold really high octane offenses to below their averages. So let's drill into that Vals defense because despite them having a pretty gaping hole with when it comes to inside scoring and their ability to score inside, they're finding ways to beat teams that should be beating them. What is happening with their defense that makes it so good? Sabrina?

[Sabrina Merchant]

I think they're just so on a string. Like, everybody is so good at rotating for one another, helping behind one another. The switches are on point. Like, it never looks like they're making mistakes defensively. When they, when you get a shot, it's because they have decided that that is the best possible outcome for the possession. Like, I don't see a lot of Golden State.

[Zena Caida]

Janelle Swamite, she might debate you on that one.

[Sabrina Merchant]

But yeah, in general, I think they just do a really good job of stifling ball movement to the point where, like, they make you score on them in isolation. And yeah, there are people who are going to beat you in isolation. Like, there are moments when JJ had, you know, moments of success and Stewie had moments of success and that's going to happen because they're very good one on one players. But the Liberty, the reason their offensive flow works is because they get the ball moving from side to side. They force you to rotate and like shift the defense. And it was very hard for them to do that against Golden State and it was very hard for Atlanta to do that against Golden State. And I think, I know I wrote about this. It's one of the reasons why I think Vegas historically does very well against Golden State's because they can just beat you one on one. Like, they don't need the ball moving, they just give the ball to one

[Zena Caida]

of their people and it's okay. Really great point.

[Sabrina Merchant]

So that's one thing, you know, if that playoff series does materialize, something that Natalie Nikase and Valkers have to figure out. But I guess a team like the Liberty that wants to get into a flow, that wants to, you know, get those paint to great shots, even though this is not a Sandy Brandello team anymore, like, that is really hard to do against Golden State. And just the wave of like sized wings coming off the bench makes it really difficult to find any moments of rhythm. So I thought it was just another really impressive Golden State performance. Again, I never really doubted their defense. Like, when you add Gabby Williams to a team that was already excellent defensively last year and Kia Stokes now is like the center anchor, right? Like, that should be good. It's just a matter of, like, how do you. I never thought that you could win a game against New York Liberty when your leading scorer was Kyla Charles with 13 points off the bench. Like, that's amazing to me. The depth that they have on their offense. The fact that like, you have a player like Janelle Salon who is basically the backup center, and there was a move at the end of the third quarter, right, where she drives on Leo Fibich, who is like the two for New York. Right. And she is successful in making that happen. So the, the versatility of that roster, like the fact that everybody can kind of score in their own way, so you don't need to over index on any one person. It's just really impressive. And that balance has worked a lot better than I thought it would.

[Zena Caida]

I will say, when you were talking about the, you know, they are patient and waiting for the best shot, I thought you were talking about Valkyries, and that's why I mentioned the Janelle Salon thing. But you're absolutely right. The Liberty have such a veteran presence, Annie, that, you know, they typically are able to say, regardless of who's in front of them, they are able to figure out how to find the best shots. Um, how much does you know? The fact that they went into this matchup with yet another new lineup, another new starting lineup, even with the veteran presence, even with the experience that they have, is that impacting their ability to, you know, play against a team like Golden State and have that familiarity to be able to beat a defense like Golden State? Do you think that has any impact, Abs?

[Annie Costable]

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they've talked about this in terms of the lack of chemistry that they have been able to develop between lineups just because they. They've seen so much change over the course of the year thus far with injuries and players in and out of the lineup. Obviously now we have satu that is going to be out with, as she's in concussion protocol, so there's no kind of timeline as to when she's expected to return from that. It's legitimately just how her body responds. And so another aspect of this, right, is that this team is learning a new offense. They're learning Cristo Marco's system. And one thing they've emphasized in that as well is having the confidence to deviate from the system when a defense is giving you something, right, like when, like sticking to the system, but then attacking isolations, attacking one on one when necessary. And that is something that I think specifically in this game they weren't doing a good job of. And whether that's confidence or confidence between lineups, that's something that 100% needs to be addressed specifically when it comes to, again, facing defenses like this like the Valkyries, because you just. You aren't going to beat them any other way.

[Zena Caida]

No, no, it's. It's a combination of their tenacity. Sabrina, you called it the moving on the string. This is why the GM Hemanian said, you know, Natalie Nakase is this unifier. We didn't really know what she meant by that because she said this at like the opening press conference. But like you're seeing this team play this unbelievable defense, you know, between the Lynx and the the Valkyries. Which one would you say is more impressive of a defense for you guys?

[Annie Costable]

Valkyries, I would say.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I kind of think the Lynx just because I didn't think that personnel had it in them.

[Zena Caida]

See, that's what I that's why I'm kind of like I don't know which one. And the continuity of Valkyries is impressive to me, whereas the links, because this is a new crew kind of being put together, is incredibly still impressive. So I We'll see. We'll see. All right, y', all, that's going to do it for the Sabrina scale, but we still have a conversation to be had around what is going on around the W. It's going to be a quiet week with the Commissioner's cup, but it's definitely not been quiet with some of these narratives. So let's get into it right after this.

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about sharing their New York Times accounts.

[Zena Caida]

I'm Neerush from Madison, Wisconsin. I would like to share my subscription with my family members. I should be able to share recipes from nyt, cooking wirecutter articles or athletic articles. We are a family of four. I would like them to have access to the subscription too. Thank you Neeraj. We heard you. It's why we created The New York

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Times family subscription, one subscription, up to

[Sabrina Merchant]

four separate logins for anyone in your life.

[Zena Caida]

Find out [e-mail] family. All right, welcome back everyone. It has happened again, folks. The coverage, the criticism, the commentary, it has reached a fever pitch. The pun is absolutely intended there. Don't worry, we're not going to rehash what went down on the court between the Fever and the Mercury between Caitlin Clark and Alyssa Thomas. I think everyone has offer their opinions all up and down, timelines all up across podcasts and television shows. But we are going to dig into all of the narratives that have come out of this in the WNBA and around the WNBA specifically, some different think pieces or opinion pieces that have come out in the last few days because you know, they are reflective of a lot of different people's opinions and they've positioned us and positioned this conversation in a lot of different ways. Now I want us to have a discourse, right? Annie, Sabrina, myself, like we just wanna have a conversation. We're not always gonna agree on everything. I think this is part of why you all listen to no Off Season. You appreciate the fact that we can have these types of conversations and present different perspectives. But I will be basing it around some of these think pieces, but it's gonna be a flow freeing conversation. So if you hear us speak over each other and you know, backtrack or whatever, we're gonna try our best not to, of course, but just know this is a conversation amongst friends. Just act like you're at the coffee shop and you just Three women talk about basketball and you're pulling up a chair right now. So I want to start with a piece from a friend of the show, Sirat Sohi at the ringer entitled the WNBA's Problem Isn't Caitlin Clark, It's Trust. What Sohee is saying in this piece is basically best summarized in this paragraph where she writes the WNBA's biggest PR problem isn't the overly physical play Clarks complaining, poor refereeing, or even the bad faith actors who took who look at every moment like it's the Zapruder film in search of ways to ignite culture wars. The WNBA's biggest problem is the gulf between how good it feels to be a WNBA fan and how toxic the league seems from the outside looking in. And in this piece she talks about how the WNBA inside the arena, within the fan communities for the most part is a really friendly, life affirming place where people can be their authentic selves. I mean, we were just talking about the Valkyries for the gays. Right. The signs were everywhere, and they started chanting it. It's our chanting, what a great chance. I mean, let's be real. And then Gabby Williams saying, of course we couldn't lose on Pride Night. That's the type of space that the WNBA can be. But outside the league is filtered through two polarizing narratives as she defines them. Sehrat at the Ringer defines them as either the league is stacked against Clark, players resent her, referees won't protect her, and league leadership has been reluctant to acknowledge obvious mistreatment. And this other narrative, the league is a hotbed of racism, homophobia, and misogyny. So let's start with that. And, you know, what do you guys think of Seurat's piece about what she's saying here? What do you think about these narratives? And maybe we could just even back up. And there's been quite a few, actually, of these kind of narratives. What are some of the narratives that have or the ways that these things have been positioned that have resonated with you, whether you agreed with them or not, but you're like, hmm, interesting perspective.

[Annie Costable]

Yeah. I mean, Siritz was probably the one I agreed with the most that I've seen thus far. And the reason for that is because she laid out some so eloquently how the league's inability to call fouls in the moment, the league's inability to protect players in the moment creates a dialogue, a discourse that could be prevented if they weren't retroactively handing out these flagrants, et cetera, like Alyssa Thomas in that moment, and we talked about the Zu and me, in the sense of, like, when that happens in the moment, it's hard to see because it's all so quick, and it didn't seem like this big to do, but that's literally the job of the officials, is to notice even the smallest things. Right. And I think everyone debating whether or not this was a serious foul. You said it the other day, anytime there's contact made to the neck, the throat, like that is something that needs to be looked at at the very least. And so even going back to 2024, some of these plays, many of them to Caitlin Clark, that just never get called, it's created this discourse that is about everything except basketball. When the officials don't do their job, it becomes everything but a basketball discussion. And it's taking away from the game, quite frankly.

[Zena Caida]

Yeah.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I think the. The officiating part of it is. I mean, I don't know that it's like, the main thing, it's. Ever since Caitlin got into the league in 2024, there's been this, I guess, debate over, like, whether Caitlyn needs WNBA more. The WNBA needs Caitlyn more. And everybody who sort of came into the league with Clark, you know, and came from the Iowa fandom and like, that new surge of fans that came in in 2024 is of the belief that the WNBA needs Caitlyn more than she needs the league. And so why wouldn't they work incredibly hard, you know, to, I guess, feature her and protect her and make sure that, like, she is spotlighted in the best way possible for the league? And it's just not a good image for the league when the, the picture that is coming out of this game is of another player having her hand on the throat of Caitlin Clark. And admittedly that is in a very brief camera frame. Right. It's something that I understand how it was missed in real time. Although I'm not a referee, I feel like officials should be watching out for this stuff as vigilantly as possible. Two people are on the floor. Presumably some sort of contact happened between the two of them should be legislated. And I think what Stephanie White said about, you know, the referees knowing that, hey, we had this big dust up two days ago between the same two teams. Like, it took what, six minutes away of game time. Like, there was pointing and name calling and technicals and everything. And like, how could you not be more hyper vigilant coming into this? And I think that's just the main thing here is that the WNBA seems so reactive all the time, right? Like when, when Caitlyn got into the league, it was like, oh, well, maybe now would be a good time to have charter flights, right? Or like, maybe now would be a good time to like, move some Indiana Fever games onto national television. Or maybe now would be a good time to have this officiating task force because Nafisa Collier came out in front of the media and just ripped us for a good three and a half minutes, you know, so nothing ever happens proactively. Right. Like, they have the best product in the world, they have the best players in the world. They have an opportunity to grow the game in a really meaningful way. And yet it's always requiring these big, high profile messes that they have to clean up in order to move forward.

[Zena Caida]

Yeah.

[Annie Costable]

It almost makes me wonder, I just have to say this really quick. It almost makes me wonder if the league is interested in the cliques and the chaos that brings all this attention. It's like, if they're willing to accept the toxicity of all of this because it's. They're being talked about. I don't know.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Like, Kathy's comment about rivalry. Right?

[Annie Costable]

Yeah. It's just. It's getting to a point where we're losing the plot.

[Zena Caida]

I feel like, you know, Annie, you hit on. I forget always how to phrase this, but, like, you know, there's. There's branches to the situation, and then there's a root to the issue. Like, the reactionary behavior, I feel like, is a root issue. And the officiating aspect of it is like one of the branches and the poor officiating or the mis officiating. And I still feel like the reason why Alyssa Thomas's punishment was so problematic was less because, you know, some people thought it was intentional or not. I thought whether you think it's intentional or not, somebody got a throat, a neck, a fist to the throat. I'm sorry. And I think Sarah, you know, pointed this out in her piece where you can still call out the racism and the misogyny and all these different things about how Alyssa Thomas has been treated since this, while also addressing the fact that she absolutely had a fist in Caitlin's throat, which is not okay.

[Annie Costable]

Right.

[Zena Caida]

Whether she meant to or not, it's just not okay. So the issue is how it's explained and how it's doled out. And that's what Annie, you and I talked about. And it's kind of what I think sir is alluding to is we struggle to trust where the WNBA is coming from in the decisions that they're making and how they're making some of these decisions. Because there's not a lot of standardization across the board. Sometimes with this. There's not a lot of standardization with. There's not consistency. Right. In the officiating. There's not consistency in the proactive, like, way they should be handling some issues. In general, it feels like we want to believe that the WNBA has its players and its fans and everyone's best interest in mind. But there continues to have these situations in which we're like, somebody in that office would have known that this was gonna play out this way. Like, somebody could have been prepared for people reacting this way. Right. Like. And so that's where it's like, what's going on? And it allows for a question, like, what you're saying, Annie, of like, does the W like these type of moments? And I. I would venture to say they don't. I don't think people want this to happen? You know, I don't think they. They want to have to clean up a foul like that or have a picture like that representative of their league. I don't think they want people believing that they' a star player like Caitlin Clark is being hated on by the black women of the league. I doubt the WNBA is like, yes, this is great for us. Like, for these to be the profound narratives of the league is that a player is being willfully hurt by other players and the league isn't doing anything about it. I don't think that. But because of the way that they keep reacting to things or not proactively preempting things, it's kind of like, what's going on? Like, why are we not ahead of these things?

[Annie Costable]

So the other kind of question or thought I have about all of this too, when it comes to the proactiveness of the WNBA is especially when it comes to social media and discourse, right? Is how much can they actually impact these discussions? Right? How much can they actually prevent them? In my opinion, they can't. Like we've opened a can of worms or taken the lid off of Pandora's box, and it's not going back on in terms of social media. Like, the social media discourse is a cesspool. It's disturbing, it's disgusting. It's not a real place. And depending on who you are, you're dealing with varying degrees of this. Okay? And so the WNBA is never going to be able to remove every racist, sexist comment from the zeitgeist. That's not an option. But what they can do is not only better prepare their players, but also better protect their players in terms of not only, you know, educating players or making players feel like they understand the security measures in place, but even from a sense of like, checking in as a league on players after some of this stuff goes on. I think that's on Cathy, to have relationships with players where when stuff goes down, like, you're able to call an Alyssa Thomas, a Dewana Bonner, a Caitlin Clark, and you're saying like, okay, listen, we see what's going on. We see you. Here's what we're doing to, you know, you're protected in so many ways, right? Because. And this is an interesting conversation that I had online with a couple people after I popped on Yahoo's podcast this morning or Yahoo Sports show this morning, and they were like, men are dealing with this all the time. Like in the NFL, the NBA. The cesspool online is happening in Ben Sports too. And that's true. That's certainly true. But the institutionalized security measures are vastly different league to league. Like the WNBA, it wasn't until 2023, 2024, that the league mandated team security for every team and allowed team security to travel with the teams. You just think about how players are mentally operating from a space of I don't feel protected and then I'm getting death threats. The last thing I'll say about this is I've received death threats throughout my career. At every single stop I've been, I've received death threats. And that is something I take to the necessary people when required. Right. And I feel protected by the companies that I've worked for. Do the players feel protected? That's just the question that needs to be answered. You're never gonna be able to get rid of it. But do the players feel protected?

[Zena Caida]

Yeah, I'd be very curious to ask players of, you know, what that looks like. And, you know, I would be very curious. Like for example, after the WNBA announces the assess, the suspension, the one game suspension and the flagrant two upgrade for Alyssa Thomas, and you're seeing, I mean, major headlines from major news media outlets saying, you know, Alyssa Thomas assaults Caitlin Clark or you know, uses these really very loaded. And I don't even know how to say, but like, you know, they use these loaded words. They portray Alyssa Thomas in a light that's way beyond basketball now. And it opens the door for people to say all types of things on top. Not only just racist things, violent things. And Annie, you know, you're mentioning these death threats. There's been some unbelievable things said about Alyssa Thomas. And this is obviously not the first time, do you think?

[Annie Costable]

Right.

[Zena Caida]

The WNBA in their no space for hate, should they like come out with a second statement to say, you know, we see these things that are being said as a result of our announcement, it is not okay. Our fandom, you know, should look like X, Y and Z. If you are a fan of the wnba, we expect X, Y and Z type of behavior. Like, is this something that the wnba, even though you're right, you can't take the, put the top back onto Pandora's box, but make it very clear we're not okay with what we're seeing. That is directly related to something that we put, you know, we had to do, but we, I don't know if they had to do the one game suspension. That's still my opinion on that. But that's something we had to do in terms of punishing Alyssa Thomas, do you all, would you all feel that that would be appropriate for them to do?

[Annie Costable]

Am of the mindset and maybe I'm a cynic for this, but I think it's less about what you, the public statement you put out at this point, it's more about what you are saying to Alyssa Thomas, what you are saying to dejuan about.

[Zena Caida]

And I'm saying on top of those pride, like, would that if a player like Sabrina, like, if you're a player and you see the league do that, do you think that that would help you feel what Annie's alluding to of, okay, they've got my back. Or they, you know, how much would

[Sabrina Merchant]

that public messaging is never a bad thing in these situations. Like, I think what Amy's saying is correct. Like, it is more important that your players feel as if the people who are directly in charge of the league, the people who are directly, like they report to have their back, have, you know, the ability to connect with them and at least empathize with them, even if they can't do anything about the insane things that are being said online. But, I mean, I haven't heard anything about the no space for hate since what, the end of the 2024 season?

[Zena Caida]

Yeah. Smiling, I'm like,

[Sabrina Merchant]

do we not care about it anymore?

[Zena Caida]

And we're seeing even worse examples now. And I've not heard anything from it. And I'm with you, Annie. Don't get me wrong. I absolutely agree. I think that's priority one. There should have been a phone call. We don't know. We haven't particularly asked Alyssa Thomas, but she also has not come out and said that that has happened. She didn't play this last game, so we wouldn't know. But I don't know where the league's public facing stance is on this. And this goes back to that aspect of the trust aspect. Right. Like, you create this whole campaign and it feels like it's gonna be what you're. You're talking about, Annie, that we're going to be proactive and we're going to take a stance against this sort of zeitgeist of terrible commentary around our league that we don't stand for. And we haven't heard anything. This feels so strange.

[Annie Costable]

Yeah, it's. God, it's like so layered and it's so exhausting and. Oh, sorry. I just swore. Oh, my God.

[Zena Caida]

Trust me. Swears all the time. We bleep, we bleep, we bleed.

[Annie Costable]

Okay, apologies. But the, the, the thing again and to go back to Sir's column is if this gets addressed in the moment, it creates less space for. For actual media members because the commentary online, it's not going anywhere. I hate to say it. We've already said it. It's not going anywhere. But the reason this becomes a conversation that actually makes its way to legitimate airwaves and to legitimate news sources and news sites and actually becomes a story is because it doesn't get caught, called. And we're all left looking at this thing and trying to make sense of this thing that the league is supposed to make sense of, that the league is supposed to hold accountable. And so another point I want to bring up again, because everyone's really been on their P's and Q's on social media for me today, so I got to shout you guys out. But another point I saw that was really interesting was like, in what other league would a player commit a foul like this? And we all be questioning what to do to protect that player. And I'm not saying that we shouldn't be considering at. Because we all. She doesn't need to say anything. You could go to her social media and you see the disturbing commentary that she's dealing with. But the other part of this is this was just a foul. This was just a foul, okay? And now it's got two sides. Some feeling like they need to jump to the defense of Alyssa Thomas, others jumping to the defense of Caitlin Clark. And it's basketball. It's a foul. And if the league just calls it, just says what it is in the moment, then it takes away all this need to identify and opine and make it an actual story.

[Zena Caida]

In my opinion, no way does it. Okay, let's bring in some other think pieces, because I like what you're saying. In theory, you're absolutely right. If you call the fouls for what they are, we should have these conversations. But the issue is, is that there is a deeper underlying problem here in the way in which Caitlin Clark and her fans are being viewed or are viewing Caitlin and how she's being treated by the league and players, regardless. And every single time an instance like this happens, it just is adding fodder to the fire of, yes, my thesis is true. I'll bring up Christine Brennan's piece at USA Today. And I ain't gonna lie to y'.

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All.

[Zena Caida]

If you have listened to me for a while, if you ever listen to me talk about how I got into sports media or why I had to delay. I've. I've always tried to, like, avoid saying this person's name. But the person that told me to not be a sports broadcaster was Christine Brennan. She told me to go right. She was like, the people behind the mics, they have no respect. They have all, you know, they. They don't. They're just talking heads, blah, blah, blah. And, you know, I'm not gonna put too much on that. She was right at the time. It's 2012, 2013. When in college. It was a very brief interaction after she spoke at Yale for something. And she encouraged me to do that. And I can't believe I let this woman dissuade me for that long. But hey, it's okay. Things always work out the way they're supposed to. But yeah, so now I see Christine Brennan, someone that I've looked up to for a very long time, make some of these statements that I am like. It's one thing to call out the fact that, you know, Caitlin Clark's arrival to the league absolutely has had positive returns on media deals, on, you know, financial factors for the wnba. Absolutely right. We would be silly to not acknowledge that. But it's this other storyline that is hiding and is. So it's this vitriol behind it. I'm just gonna read a piece from her and this is what I'm talking about. For three seasons now, in ways big and small, the WNBA and its players have continued to show their unabashed jealousy, disdain, and outright hatred for the greatest thing to happen to them. The league's my God. Right. Let's just pause. The league's paltry one game suspension of Thomas with a tiny $1,000 fine. She makes a base salary of 1.2 million a year. And no mention of punishment for the officials overseeing the incident barely begins to address the problem. Ten games and a fine well into five figures would have sent a significant message. One game does not. Okay. And so this is what I mean by. And this is what made me go. Annie, if they officiated right. Yes. We might turn down the volume. Oh, but they would opine. They would still opine. There is still this narrative that these black women in the WNBA are so jealous. They hate Caitlin Clark. They want to see her fail, they want to harm her. And it is like it is all because she is white and she is straight and she is everything that they are. Apparently not. Oh, this is the most. This is the toxic storyline that continues to pervade all of these comments that are based in racism, that are based in misogyny, that are all over Alyssa Thomas's comments that were all over Dijonay Carrington's when she had her interaction with Caitlin Clark that were all over Kennedy Carter when she had her interactions with Caitlin Clark that was all over Angel Reese's, you know, social media and the storyline around her. I remember her being called ghetto and a thug and all these different, you know, very racialized terminologies to address these women. And they're utilizing the fact that Caitlin Clark has been a financial boost for the WNBA as the only. Doesn't matter. Anything else? You say it doesn't matter that there's another player that has been consistently amazing in Asia Wilson. I am referring to amazing and been a quote, unquote face of the league forever. It doesn't matter that there's other examples of white players that are also being, you know, welcomed to the league in a physical manner. There's all these other examples to showcase that this is just basketball and this is just the wnba. It is this notion that these black women in the league should be grateful for Caitlin Clark's arrival. And because they are not grateful in the way that they play against her, in the way that they refer to her, in the way that they compete with her, they are jealous, they hate her and they want to harm her. That is a conversation I don't even know. That's part of what we talked about. Christine Brennan. But Candace Buckner, our. Our co worker at the Athletic wrote about this. Desi Cortez for the LA Progressive wrote about this. It. This is the narrative that's like, what do you do? What do you do? I don't know how to address this. To tell someone they're not jealous. They're basketball players.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah. It's the comment that comes up to me most often when people who are new to the wnba, they're like, so do people really not like Caitlin? Like, is that a thing? Like, they don't like her? It's true that, like, they. Nobody else in the league, like, wants to be friends with her. I'm like, well, first of all, I don't know, like, when you would expect, let's say, I don't know. Shay Gilder Alexander wins mvp and are you expecting someone in their pregame press conference to be like, oh, yeah, like, he's such a boon for the NBA and it's such a great. We're so lucky to have him in the league and like, thank goodness he's here to bring in a Canadian fandom and, like, title to Oklahoma City. Like, nobody does that. Right? They're not going out of their way

[Zena Caida]

to

[Sabrina Merchant]

like, they're not gonna say, like, I'm, I'm thankful that Seagull just Alexander exists so that we have like, you know, a great team. And like, nobody does things like that. That's just not how professionals comport with one another. Right? Like, that's not how you talk about each other. So when, you know, you see something written like Christine Brennan specifically says to show their unabashed jealousy, disdain and outright hatred, like, I don't even know where that's coming from.

[Zena Caida]

That's what I'm saying.

[Sabrina Merchant]

It's just, it's completely there a lot being read into interactions on the court, which again, like, I don't understand how you could watch Caitlyn Clark play with. Against other players and think that she doesn't hate them. Like, that's like, that's what it looks like on the basketball court.

[Annie Costable]

It's literally competition. These players all hate each other when they're on that court. Did you see Paige and Olivia?

[Zena Caida]

Right? What you going to do? What you going to do?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Exactly.

[Annie Costable]

Literally she's sitting there being like, what are you? Right? And that. Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off. Sabrina, go ahead.

[Sabrina Merchant]

No, no, that's fine. Go on, Eddie.

[Annie Costable]

But that is where this gets so sick and twisted is these women aren't even allowed to healthily hate each other, competitively hate each other without it turning into, well, why aren't you more grateful? And then on Caitlin's side, it's like, well, why aren't you speaking up to your fans? And go through the list. It's all of these questions that get put on these players that are showing up to compete, to play a game. And I can't help but go back to, again, the societal conditioning we're all operating under when it comes to women in sports, quite frankly, when it comes to women in the world. But we're talking about women in sports here. But when it comes to women in sports, black women in sports, queer women in sports, like, this is not a space historically that has been celebrated, welcomed, encouraged, lifted up, invested in. Right? Okay. It has not. And so for a long time, this space got to operate and exist in this kind of unpopped bubble. And when you were in the bubble, it was this space where the game was talked about in a shining light. And if you were in this space, there was no negativity, not even healthy negativity, not even critique or criticism. It was preserved because it had the luxury to operate. So because everyone else turned their back on it, everyone ignored and everyone Refused to invest, like I said, in the proper way. And so Caitlin comes, the 20, 24 class comes. And to Sarah Spain, she made this point the other day. Caitlin was a match that got laid on lighter fluid. She was the match, but she wasn't the pile of, like, you know, lighter fluid that was waiting to be lit. And so she comes and she ignites this thing. She helps take it mainstream. And now the bubble's been popped and there's all this criticism that's coming in. But part of the criticism. Criticism is healthy, right? Critiquing is healthy. But what's happening, too, is this very toxic reality we exist in in America, which is, again, the sexist, racist, homophobic conditioning that so many operate under, whether consciously or. Or subconsciously. And that is what the WNBA is grappling with. And the last thing I'll say about it is when it comes to posts or again, columns like Christine Brennan's. I read that. And I'm reading someone who is writing again, from a place of their own conditioning. Because to your point, Zina and Sabrina, in what league is a competitor walking in and being like, dear God, thank you.

[Zena Caida]

Oh, my God.

[Annie Costable]

Shay Gill just had to.

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Alexander.

[Zena Caida]

I was stuck in my. Yeah, it's very strange.

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What.

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Why?

[Annie Costable]

Why? Why do women have to do that? They don't. And think about Larry Bird and Magic Johnson. Who in those in that league back then was walking up to Magic and Larry Bird and every day being like, thank you so much for what you

[Zena Caida]

did for this league.

[Annie Costable]

Dear God, thank you. No one was doing that.

[Zena Caida]

No one's ever gonna.

[Annie Costable]

So why are we asking women to.

[Zena Caida]

No one's doing that for the game. They're not doing that for any. Like, the only time you're really ever gonna see something like that is at hall of Fame inductions.

[Annie Costable]

Okay.

[Zena Caida]

Which happened this past week. Shout out to Elaine Del Don, Candace Parker, Shell Reeve, 96 team, all those folks that were inducted. I do. I don't wanna miss out on that opportunity to honor them. But that's the only time that you're gonna say, thank you so much for everything you did for our league, for our. For this position, for our visibility. Like, that's the only time you're not gonna see that people were so. Victor Wembanyama not shaking hands with the New York Knicks after he lost. Cause that. Cause he lost the finals. Finals. Like, what are we talking about? But you know what you're saying? Annie is very reminiscent of what Desi Cortez wrote in his piece titled WNBA's Caitlin Clark Problem is really America's black woman problem. And it's true because, you know, sports is a microcosm of society. People try to make sports not political. They try to make. Make it not tied to what we see every day. And it absolutely is. And this league is the closest you're probably gonna ever get to that. He said the WNBA has been hand built, largely, largely by black women. The heavy lifting by black women, defended by black women and too often ignored because those black women did not fit America's preferred Nordic princess picture of quote, unquote, acceptable femininity. Too strong, too direct, too muscular, too queer, too urban, too confident, too unwilling to giggle politely while being underpaid and overlooked. Then Clark arrives, undeniably gifted. And suddenly America discovers the league like Columbus discovering land with people already standing on it. Unbelievably said, beautifully said. And I think that's the tension that fans have not been able to reconcile with. Even fans that are trying to combat this notion of. Have found themselves also saying some kind of crazy stuff. Like there are people saying that Caitlin Clark is not good at basketball. And it's like, okay, y', all, you're tripping. Like, you're tripping.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Enjoy mine and Annie's All Star ballots.

[Zena Caida]

There's absolutely no way that you can look at the numbers she's putting up, watch her play basketball, especially when she's cooking and say, yeah, she's terrible at basket. Like, people are becoming bad faith actors in that church.

[Annie Costable]

That's real.

[Zena Caida]

But it really. The more harmful, the more harmful rhetoric is on this notion that this league wasn't anything until Caitlin Clark arrived. And that tension is really hard because especially if you just like the league and you just care about basketball and you enjoy watching Caitlin Clark play just like you enjoy everybody else playing. It's. If you combat that narrative, you're ripping or tearing Caitlin Clark down. Right? If you try to go against this notion that, no, the WNBA existed long before Caitlin, the fans of that notion that Caitlin Clark is the reason the WNBA exists and continues to exist or is relevant or has fans or whatever. If you even try to combat that, the understanding is you're saying, well, Caitlin Clark isn't anything. And it's like, no, no, no, that's not what we're saying. It is a very balanced equation here where the WNBA existed and had great players long before Clayton Clark came. But absolutely, we do want to give reverence to the fact that Caitlin Clark and her class's arrival, you know, was huge and Caitlin Clark in herself, because even Christine Brennan says in her piece that Kathy Engelbert, while she gives speeches, she'll say, and Paige and Angela, and she needs to stop. She needs to cut those players out and just say, Caitlin Clark. Oh, like what? I. I don't know. And that's what's so hard. You cannot argue with these people because. Or these fans, quote, unquote, because they are so entrenched in this notion that this league would not exist if it, if it wasn't for Caitlin Clark. And everyone should be grateful.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Even if Caitlin Clark is the unique accelerant, like Annie was saying that, you know, was the lighter fluid that caused the WNBA to reach this rocket ship of marketability and success and popularity. Like, what are you supposed to do with that now? Right? Like, it happened. She's in the league. That doesn't mean that you cater everything towards her and, like, make it easier for her to succeed somehow in the context of a competitive basketball league. Like, that happened. She's on the Indiana Fever. She's in the wnba. The WNBA has benefited greatly from her arrival. And so how do we push that forward is really what we should be talking about. It's not like, oh, we should be. Continue to just be grateful for everything Caitlin has done and, like, bow at her knees because of, you know, this great place of success that the WNBA is in. Like, no, like that happened. It's, it's in the past. Like, she was drafted. She's a pro. She has shifted her focus to, like, trying to win a championship with the Indiana Fever. I think the focus should be shifted to, like, how does the WNBA continue to just build on this momentum rather than stay in this one place of, like, who deserves the credit 1,000%, which

[Zena Caida]

also really quickly, Annie, I just want to. Cause I know we've gone for a while here and I want to close things out. It leads me to what Candice Buckner was writing for us about this. It's no longer fun. Like, we were supposed to ride this rocket ship in with Caitlyn and be excited for the logo threes and the no look passes and all these different things. And we haven't quite gotten that experience because of these narratives outside of her, because of these narratives tied directly to her. Whether it's the technicals, whether it's the troubling injuries that she's experienced, these PR nightmares that we. That, you know, is basically the catalyst for this conversation today. It's not been as fun as it should have been. It was supposed to be. Yes, everyone's watching now. We are all Excited. Come on aboard. This is awesome. And it's just been, oh, God. Unabashed jealousy. Christine Brennan, really, you know, like, it's just been this trying to give legitimacy to the WNBA without also tearing down players, Caitlyn included and other. It just, it's not been fun. So what do you guys think about this notion of, like, how do we make it fun again? How do we make it so that it isn't this Caitlin Clark experience that's negative or problematic? It's Caitlin Clark and her experience and it's the WNBA experience and it's fun.

[Annie Costable]

I think we need to, as three power players in this ecosystem and the countless others who are covering this league as a league, as a sport, not because it's. We're doing some favor, but because we're getting paid to do so. At the end of the day, we are all paid to cover this league. We owe it because of that to do it to the best of our ability. And so when you talk about bringing the fun back into it, I don't think any of us have gotten away from this. But I think what I hope, what I want to see more of is the focus being on the basketball, the focus being on the storylines around the game. And as much as is humanly possible, ignoring the narrative and almost writing over it that seems to be writing over the narrative that seems to be pushed by bad faith actors. And I think we do that again by covering the actual competitiveness of the league, the actual sport, the actual players, and all of the dynamics that exist between those players in a way that we would any other league. I think about the column I wrote about Olivia Miles and AZ Fudd. I got dragged to the depths of hell and back for that column. And, and listen, I'll take it because that's part of the job, right? But this was just a normal story about a number one pick and a number two pick, which historically the number one and number two, when they're that close together, like in terms of talent, they are going to be linked to the rest of their career. That is not me bashing AZ or Stanning for Olivia Miles. This is literally a sports story that would exist in any other league. And if the trolls online wanna come for me, cool, fine, great. I'm gonna choose not to give that energy. I'm giving it energy right now, but so it's like doing more of the sports storytelling that exists in other leagues and trying to leave this bull but by the wayside because, my God, it's like it can't, can't it just. It's. Can't we just exist?

[Zena Caida]

Yeah. I wish it was that simple. You're absolutely right. Sabrina, any, you know, closing thoughts on, like, how do we make this fun again for as a dialogue?

[Sabrina Merchant]

We haven't done a great job of that this year today. Because our top block about the Sabrina scale, which we do have a lot of fun with. I mean, Dina even has a freaking jingle that goes with it was a lot shorter than this particular conversation. No, but I think, like, what Annie was saying, it's just continuing to use our platform to focus on things that are more fun for us to talk about and do still continue to shine a light on the players and what they're bringing to the league and all of the wonderfully entertaining sports stories. Like, there's so many of them that have happened in the season this year. Like, it's been a very, very fun season so far if you ignore one giant blight that has overcome all of this. So I think, yeah, just, I mean, the same way you would like on social media. And we're, like, prioritizing your space, controlling, like, the things that you see. And we'll try to, you know, direct you to all the fun stuff that continues to amuse us and entertain us.

[Zena Caida]

I love that. I appreciate y' all having this conversation and I appreciate all of you that are tuning in and listening to it. We'd love to hear your perspectives on it. We want to make sure that all of these people that joined, like, are having fun the way that the last 30 years have been fun, have been seeing really great basketball, really amazing talent, and now we're seeing even better basketball from all around the world, and it should be fun. So I think that that's what a lot of folks are looking for, they're hoping for. And if you guys have any ideas on what the league, ourselves, anyone can do to make it fun, let us know. We might put those out there and slip it on over to Kathy Engelbert. All right, y'. All. On the other side of this break, we're going to close this show out. Don't go anywhere.

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[Sabrina Merchant]

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[Zena Caida]

Last but certainly not least, there is a huge game tonight. Speaking of fun, the Commissioners Cup Final is tipping off at Barclays, the New York Liberty against the Las Vegas Aces. Annie Sabrina Thinking about the Commissioners cup, it is typically an indication of where teams are going to end up at the last in the last weeks of the WNBA season, particularly in the playoffs. What do we think that we should be watching for tonight other than a potential WNBA Finals champion?

[Annie Costable]

Well, this is the first time there's going to be a repeat Commissioners cup champion, so that's exciting in terms of the history of the league. And again, what we've seen in the past is that the loser of this game goes on to win in the finals. So that was the case when the Liberty beat the Aces in. What was that? 2023. And it was again the case when the Liberty lost to the Lynx in 2024. So whether or not you believe in that voodoo woo woo type of magic, I mean, I guess I don't care because history says it's true. So we'll see if it remains to be true this year.

[Zena Caida]

I love it.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Well, of the five years that we've had a Commissioner's cup, in every one of those seasons, nine out of the 10 participants have made the WNBA semifinals. In 2021, when Seattle won the Commissioners cup, is the only time they did make the semifinals because Stewie ended the season hurt. And that kind of changes things when you lose Brianna Stewart. So it is a very good indicator of what the playoff field is going to look like. I think this is a really tough matchup or just a tough time for the New York Liberty because of this extended west coast stretch they've been on. You know, they came to LA for the 30th anniversary game last Sunday, stayed on the west coast for that game against Vegas, then Seattle, then Golden State. So they played in Golden State on Sunday. They'll be playing in New York on Tuesday. Even though it's a home game for them. That's really tough Travel, and this team looks exhausted. Like the way they played in Golden State, the way they played in Seattle. They even had to give Brianna Stewart that night off in Seattle, a game that they ended up losing. Those legs appear really dead. They don't have SATU right now. It's almost an easier travel situation for Vegas because they're coming from Chicago on Sunday to go to New York on Tuesday. So, like every other team in the WNBA gets this nice week off, you know, because nobody's playing Monday, Wednesday, most of them are not playing Tuesday, they get all of this practice time. You'd think the Liberty could use a lot of this practice time to figure out all of those rotations you were talking about earlier, Annie. You know, with all of this new personnel and getting these combinations together, and yet they have to prepare to face Vegas again. I think it's a really good matchup in isolation for New York just because of their size. Against Las Vegas, we didn't get a chance to talk about their regular season game against each other last week, but I'm just worried about their fatigue factor. Like, I think about three years ago, when they actually played the Aces in 2023, and Vegas was in this stretch of like, five games in nine days and just didn't have any juice whatsoever in their Commissioner's cup loss. And so that's kind of how I'm seeing this going. I would pick Vegas just because of the fatigue here, but understanding that, I do think that this is a very good individual matchup for New York. They just. They just seem so dead right now.

[Zena Caida]

That's a really great point. If they hadn't. If they didn't have this. This schedule, I probably would have picked New York outright. Especially when you. If you watch that game when New York played Vegas, well, Vegas couldn't pitch shots, so I'll. I'll say that they were really bad from the floor, but it did just feel like New York had Vegas's number. They were in passing lanes. They were making things difficult for them. Um, Sabrina looked really good that game. I remember. Like, they. They had a lot of things going for them. Right now, they don't look nearly as connected as they did in that matchup. So I'm with you. I feel like Vegas will probably pull this out. We'll see. Is it going to be another 20, 22 when they won the Commissioner's cup and the whole thing? Who knows? The double. The double. The only double in Commissioner's cup history, so. But, yeah, I'm definitely on the. On the Aces train. As well. So we'll see what happens. New York Liberty. Prove us wrong. Prove us wrong. I'll be really impressed, though, if they are able to pull out this win. Um, I think that'll be incredibly impressive for this team at the juncture that they're in and Chris DiMarco as well, playing in what? You know, and New York. New York. Right. Like, just meaningful basketball. This is what the Commissioner's cup is about, is being able to put teams in these type of situations earlier in the season. And so you're able to win a game like this. That means a lot, I think, for what you're able to do when it matters a little bit later on in the year. So.

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Alrighty.

[Zena Caida]

Well, that game is going to happen. I think we've already. We've made our wait. Annie, where are you at? Who you thinking?

[Annie Costable]

I'm in New York. I'm back in New York.

[Zena Caida]

No, I'm saying who are you choosing?

[Annie Costable]

Oh, you predicted.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Oh, not like, physically. Where you at, Amy?

[Zena Caida]

Where are you at?

[Annie Costable]

As in what side of the physically at. I'm at. I'm at this address. No, I. I'm gonna go with the Aces as well. Just based on everything now I feel

[Sabrina Merchant]

even better about the Liberty streets.

[Zena Caida]

I know.

[Annie Costable]

I'm like, ooh, you might have just

[Zena Caida]

given them the ammo. They're like a word. No. Also like a word. They're ready.

[Annie Costable]

No, but I mean, they're. They're. That travel is gnarly. And with Satu out, it's. Yeah.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Kennedy back for the Aces, too.

[Annie Costable]

Right? It's. It's going to be tough. I think it'll be a good game. But. But my money's on the Aces.

[Zena Caida]

Okay? Just.

[Annie Costable]

Although I don't gamble.

[Zena Caida]

There you go. Thank you for that announcement.

[Annie Costable]

The.

[Zena Caida]

The championship game, y', all will be streamed exclusively on Amazon prime video. It'll be 6:30pm 3:30pm Pacific. And remember, whoever wins is. They're going to get that $500,000 prize pool, so some money up for stakes. All right. Make sure you tune in tomorrow. Or not tomorrow, today, June 30, later on this evening. Okay, that's all for today's show. Appreciate all of you listening, pulling up a chair at the coffee shop. Think it was a great conversation. And we will continue to bring it for the this week. Blasia and I will be back on Thursday. And don't forget these two. Annie, Sabrina, They've got a great newsletter. You should be signed up already because you listen and follow directions, right? Yes, of course. I've been saying this for a while. Sign up for the newsletter every Tuesday. Be sure to follow our show. Subscribe Like Comment Email Us Let us know what are your opinions on how to make the league feel fun again? Or maybe it is fun for you. Maybe you are in a bubble of your own and you don't see any of this. How do you do that? How do you protect your piece? Let us know on behalf of the Athletic Sabrina Merchant and Andy Costigel, I'm Zena Caida thanking you for listening and we'll see you next time. No Off Season is hosted by Zena Keda with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant, La' Ja Clarendon and Annie Constable. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producer is Andrea B. Scott. Monica Compton is our video editor. Our theme music is by Marcus Bagala. Shannon Ross Bryant is managing editor of Women's Basketball at the Athletic. Be sure to like and subscribe. We drop new episodes every Tuesday, Thursday and Friday.

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