Why WNBA Team Building is Changing

Summary

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No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show

Episode: Why WNBA Team Building is Changing

Air date: May 28, 2026
Hosts: Zena Keita and Layshia Clarendon

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Episode Overview

This episode examines how WNBA team-building strategies are evolving—specifically in light of a controversial Portland Fire roster shuffle that fueled debate around international players, representation, race, and the direction of the women’s basketball talent pipeline. Hosts Zena Keita and Layshia Clarendon discuss the Fire’s decision to waive three Black American players and sign predominantly white, international rookies, exploring both basketball and societal perspectives. The episode also features analysis of promising rookies, trends in international vs. American player development, and the increasing intersections of race, nationality, and access to opportunity as the league grows.

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Key Segments & Insights

1. Exciting Rookie Debuts and International Impact ([02:23]–[07:12])

• Seattle Storm’s Awafam Debut:
  Zena and Layshia analyze Seattle’s #3 pick, Awafam, lauding her comfort, poise, and seamless adjustment despite limited team practice.

  • “She just looked so comfortable…like, has she been here before?” — Layshia Clarendon ([03:17])
  • The hosts note how international players like Awafam, who have played against adults since their teens, transition more smoothly, especially as post players.

• Signature Rookie Moments:
  Layshia breaks down Azzi Fudd’s third-quarter performance, focusing on her “subtle and efficient” off-the-ball movement and technical shooting.

  • “Her hands are always ready... It's so fluid, like, ooh, it's Diana… technically sound.” — Layshia Clarendon ([07:59])

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2. Portland Fire Roster Controversy: What Happened? ([12:54]–[19:28])

• The Moves:
  • Waived: Shug Sutton, Haley Jones, Kamiyah Smalls (all Black American players).
  • Promoted/Added: Frieda Bruner, Holly Winterburn, Taya O'Block (all international rookies, all white), with Jordan Harrison (Black developmental player) added shortly after.
  • Fan Outrage: Accusations of bias after contributions by outgoing Black players seemingly outperformed their replacements.
• Zena lays out context and key facts: social media outcry was especially pointed before the Harrison signing, focusing on the optics of three Black players replaced by white players.
  • “This sparked some conversation…three Black players are waived, and it’s not just three Black players—it’s players that have contributed to your team.” — Zena Keita ([12:54])

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3. Race, Representation, and Fan Reaction ([17:13]–[24:16])

• Why Was the Reaction So Intense?
  Layshia connects the outrage to the broader history of race in America and sports, emphasizing the genuine, visceral hurt evoked by “Black players losing jobs, insert white player.”

  • “That’s traumatizing in terms of what we have experienced in this country over and over and over again…That’s the, the really insidiousness of racism in our country: these are things we can’t not look at through a lens.” — Layshia Clarendon ([17:27], [19:12])

• Multiplicity of Black Perspective:
  Zena urges listeners to resist monolithic assumptions: “Black people are not a monolith…my Black experience is different than Lay’s.”

  • Both warn against unfounded accusations, advocating for measured, evidence-based critique given their responsibility as journalists.
  • “We responsibly, as an extension of The Athletic and the New York Times, cannot be out here accusing people of being racist without evidence.” — Zena Keita ([23:16])

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4. The Basketball Rationale: Coaches, GMs, and International Networks ([24:31]–[39:28])

• Meet the Decision Makers:

  • Head Coach: Alex Sarama—British, 31, known for “Constraints-Led Approach” (CLA), emphasizing unlearning habits and read-and-react skills; prior work in NBA Europe, Italy, Paris, London Lions, G-League, NBA.
  • GM: Vanya Cernovich—Slovenian, international talent pipeline specialist, deep roots in NBA Europe, London Lions, Valkyries.
  • Rationale: Both joined Portland for a “start from scratch” approach—unconventional paths and a shared preference for international, system-fitting rookies (many with direct prior connections).
  • Key quote: “His whole thing…was he wanted an expansion team and thought it was ideal…they don’t have to unlearn a previous one.” — Zena Keita ([27:21])

• Systemic Bias vs. Racial Bias:
  Zena explains the pattern as a byproduct of prioritizing youth, international pipeline, and system compatibility over race per se. “If any of those players would have been Black, I think they still would have kept those players…that is where the bias sets in.” ([36:31])

  • Layshia pushes back, pointing out the historic inability for Black coaches to take “unorthodox paths,” and urges constant self-examination by decision-makers: “I don’t buy it fully…you can’t separate them.” ([39:28])

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5. International vs. US Talent Pipelines: What’s Changing? ([46:32]–[64:09])

• Evolving Competitive Landscape:
  The W is facing NBA-like trends: a wider, deeper, more international talent pool thanks to more competitive wages. This raises both stakes and anxieties, especially around displaced American—and especially Black—players.

• Player Development Differences:
  Layshia describes growing up on US “travel ball,” needing tougher competition, and contrasts it with international players who mature earlier, playing at the senior national level from age 15 or younger.

  • “That would be my hope for more players…to get that kind of development.” — Layshia Clarendon ([52:21])
  • Zena and Lay agree international systems build more mature, professional players, which translates faster to the WNBA.

• Skill Set Stereotypes:
  Both discuss the “fundamental” vs. “saucy”/flashy dichotomy—often racialized in how coaches evaluate talent.

  • “There are very few players coming over from international games that are considered quote unquote saucy…when I think about saucy players, I think majority Black players.” — Zena Keita ([56:20])

• Nuances in Style:

  • Layshia: “Are we looking at [roster cuts] across the board to say, oh, let me make sure like I'm being clear on when I'm marketing or who I think is smart…“high IQ” often gets coded racially.” ([43:32])

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6. What Needs to Change? Duty, Introspection, and Accountability ([66:07]–[75:36])

• Bias Interrogation and Duty:
  Both hosts agree that while not every move is malicious, decision-makers (especially international hires) have a “duty” to understand American racial dynamics and be vigilant about inclusivity.

  • “As the league grows and gets more successful, these coaches, international or not, have a duty in this country to make sure that the talent pool of Black women and Black people does not shrink.” — Layshia Clarendon ([69:11])

• Self-Reflection and League Action:
  Zena calls for robust introspection and possible bias training for W leaders at every level.

• Ecosystem of Response:
  Layshia champions the importance of dialogue: not all Black voices will agree, and “ecosystem” requires strong, nuanced conversation—sometimes outside the charged, unsafe environment of social media.

  • “For me, the big thing is learning…the reason I love being on this podcast…and wanting to have more of these conversation is there’s room for nuance.” — Layshia Clarendon ([76:01])

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Key Notable Quotes & Moments

• On the visceral reaction to roster cuts

  “You’re activated when you see…Black players losing jobs, insert white player. Like that’s traumatizing in terms of what we have experienced in this country over and over.”
  — Layshia Clarendon ([17:27])

• On interrogating situations vs. accusing individuals

  “Interrogating the situation requires the question of how and why did this happen…what can we do to solve for it, to help the situation out?”
  — Zena Keita ([46:32])

• On the duality of growth and responsibility

  “You do not get to come here, live here in America…in a league that has been built off the backs of Black labor and Black folks and queer folks and then all of a sudden…‘I want to be successful, here’s how I’m going to do it’ without also…making sure that talent pool reflects the players that you are coaching and continue to have built up this league.”
  — Layshia Clarendon ([69:11])

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Rookie Impact & International Acclimation: [02:23]–[07:12]
• Portland Fire Roster Breakdown & Fan Reactions: [12:54]–[19:28]
• Explaining Coach/GM International Connections: [24:31]–[36:31]
• Nuanced Debate—Bias, Race, and System Fit: [36:31]–[46:32]
• Comparing US vs. International Development: [51:20]–[64:09]
• Responsibility, Introspection, and Solutions: [66:07]–[77:50]

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Closing Thoughts

• The episode doesn’t offer easy answers but insists on complexity, accountability, and dialogue as the WNBA becomes more globalized and scrutinized.
• Both hosts encourage future coaches/GMs to seek both winning and fair, representative team-building.
• The show closes reflecting on the need for a “safe space” for these conversations, both on podcasts and (when possible) off social media, and a communal, nuanced approach to critiquing and supporting the ever-evolving league.

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For further discussion:

• How can WNBA leadership institutionalize anti-bias safeguards as the international influx grows?
• What lessons can the W learn from the NBA’s global growth—and its mistakes?
• How can fans and media productively keep conversation nuanced but persistent?

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[End of Summary]

Transcript

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[Lazia Clarendon]

I deeply believe this in myself. Is that like as the league grows and gets more successful, these coaches, international or not, have a duty in this country to make sure that the talent pool of black women and black people does not shrink. You do not get to come here, live here in America. Either way, like international or not, it's not us versus them in a league that has been built off the backs of black labor and black folks and queer folks and then all of a sudden put a lens on that just says I want to be successful. Here's how I'm going to do it without also like opening the door to make sure that that talent pool reflects the players that you are coaching and continuing to coach and continue to have built up this league.

[Zena Keda]

Hello everyone and welcome to no offseason. I'm Zena Keda.

[Lazia Clarendon]

And I'm Lazia Clarendon.

[Zena Keda]

And today on the show, we're diving into the recent Portland Fire roster conversation, which has sparked discussions about the team's lack of players and raised wider questions about how roster decisions are made. And also the Demographic of the WNBA at large. We're going to take a look at some of the factors that go into those roster decisions and why representation matters. But first, the Seattle Storm. Okay. One of the most anticipated returns to the floor, but really debuts on the floor is overall pick. The number three overall pick, Awafam, finally made her WNBA debut this past Sunday against the Mystics. Lay, you were on the call for that one. You got to see her up close. She looked good. What jumped out to you in her first game at this level?

[Lazia Clarendon]

She did. I was curious how many minutes she would play if we would only get, you know, 5 to 10. She was up there closer to 20, so that was impressive for one. Um, she just looked so comfortable. That was probably the number one thing to me across the board was like, has she been here before? Like, she just had that maturity about her. Like even her, she didn't look nervous, she just was kind of like not nonchalant, but a player who's so at ease in their body on the court. She looked really comfortable with the pace of the game, which is not typical of a rookie. They have like some of that sped upness. She just looked solid. And I was like, how many days have you practiced with the team? Like it was really, she's the number three picks. I kept reminding myself like she went high for a reason. But when you have us, particularly those international players who we don't get to see a lot, we don't get to see them in college, we don't get to see their final four runs or what they're doing, watch them grow for three to four or five years. So that was impressive. I thought her and pick a role was like thank you. Like the play with her and blage and pick a role. I just was like, ah. I literally like had to not yell on the broadcast and I looked at my two co workers on the call was just like squealy had to push my little cough button and like yell for a second because she was so good. So like her and Flage on the left side at one point they can have a filled corner, they can clear the corner. And then you're just watching Flage develop and to see two young players, two rookies who are going to be able to grow three to five years and I think get Seattle back at the top was really impressive. She can. She screens right away. I think there's. Everyone's struggling a bit with screening this year and what to do with the refs when how to screen. So I think for her like screening Angles, when to screen, how to re. Screen is something. Something to grow. I think for her is post defense in terms of physicality. Post always struggle with fouling early in their career. Kind of figuring out as everyone's struggling to figure out fouling this year. But I thought she danced really well in the post. Moved, got around and so, yeah, she's gonna be nice. And we didn't even. We got to see like a glimpse of her ball handling one time, like she crossed over and went baseline and that was just like a sliver of like, ah.

[Zena Keda]

And we got to see that she has a little jumper as well off the pick and roll and there, you know, even Sonja Raman said that, you know, she's still learning, she's still getting acclimated, but there is an ease with the way she moves on the floor. And I think that that's the biggest thing that we all noticed. And when we think about the fact that, you know, players like Awafam, players like Damalonga, these players that were playing since their 15, 16 years old against grown women, that does help in terms of that translation out on the floor. It's interesting though that we've seen it more so though in the post players than we've seen it in some of these guards that have come on the floor. It feels like the pace of how some of these posts have acclimated to. Let me give you the ball, get a screen pop off of it, cut to the basket. We saw her make some really good cuts to the basket as well. It feels like their movement on the floor is translating faster than it might with some of these guards. But then again, they're, you know, Polynacier exists, you know, Yavon and Ogic exists. Like we're seeing, you know, some of these guards come in and immediately make impact.

[Lazia Clarendon]

So I think the difference too is those older rookies who are like, they're rookies, but they're older internationally, particularly at the point guard position, it's harder. Like you have to lead an entire team. So I think it's fascinating to see the people who come over who are rookies, but they're 35, they're 30, so they're veterans in the game, but rookies in the W. And I think post can do. It's just a smaller scope of work. As a post player, I would say, like, there's still a lot that goes into it. You've got a guard, screens like, I'm not, I'm not underestimating my post players, but when you have to lead A team. There's just a bigger weight on your shoulders with having to run everything and that. Sure.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah. Well, it was very exciting to see her take the floor. She was a. She's the. I believe, like the third or something teenager to take the floor in the WNBA. Uh, yeah. Still 19, y'. All. That's unbelievable and very, very exciting, especially when you talk about that connection with FLAUDJ and continuing to grow. Okay. I was curious, as you were watching these games, whether you were on the call or just watching overall, were there any, like, signature moments from the past week in any games that stood out to you, any plays that really impacted the game? And if so, how did they do? So I need a lay breakdown.

[Lazia Clarendon]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm gonna go az fudd with that third quarter. And there was. Yeah, I know. We didn't get to talk about.

[Zena Keda]

Yes. Wow. Unbelievable shooting.

[Lazia Clarendon]

We talked about how. I said she just needs to be who she is and she can play a simple role. She doesn't have to, like, do the most. What stood out to me was so simple. Someone was driving on the left wing, and it's the way she moves in space. She rose. It was so subtle and made an angle. She could have cut to the basket. If you're a cutter, if you're a player, there's like. She could have had that 45 cut, is what we call it from the wing dive down. So when someone drives, they bring help with them. She could have cut, but she moved ever so slowly, subtly into the window. So she created a passing window for someone. I think that was maybe her third three. At that point. I was trying to track all of them, and it. Oh. I was, like, screaming watching, and I'm like, I hope people see how simple that was, but how it made everything possible. So, yeah, yeah, she did her threes in a variety of way, but they're. None of them are crazy. She had that one pull up in transition when she was feeling herself, but most of them were just like, her hands are always ready. She moves her feet, she stays square. And then it's so fluid, like, ooh, it's Diana. I don't feel like I've seen someone's fluid three point shot like that smooth, like, since Diana. Maybe like that just, like, technically sound.

[Zena Keda]

Yes to me. Like, yes. We. A lot of folks talk a lot about, you know, the way that she aligns her body, she squares her shoulders up to the basket and, you know, her follow through. It's just pure, pure, pure, pure. All people talk about that to me. It's the coming off the flares to the weak side of the floor. Catching and squaring up her footwork. She's never tripped up. She's never tripped up. And not only does she get her footwork so that her feet are facing the basket well, she's balanced so that in the case that she catches and doesn't have a shot, it's one pump, one dribble to the side, pull up. It's so efficient. It's so clean. Yeah, no, it's a beautiful game. It's translating well. And I feel like she's been hearing. Yeah, I feel like she's been hearing folks talk about the rookie of the year race and how she's just not quite at the top in that mix. Right? Flau. J. Olivia. She's like, hold on, hold on. Let me put something on that real quick.

[Lazia Clarendon]

Put some respect on my name.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah, there you go. Yeah. It was an amazing, amazing performance. Okay, we gotta talk about this hot topic. We're gonna dive into this Portland fire roster situation on the other side of this break. Stay tuned and everyone take a deep breath because it's gonna be a good one. I'm excited. Par le tu francais, hablas espanol?

[Lazia Clarendon]

Parliament.

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[Zena Keda]

Alrighty. So after a difficult start to the season, the Portland Fire made a mid May roster shakeup. They w they waved. I guess you could say yes in past tense. I was going to say whoa, that's not the right word. They waived Shug Sutton, a veteran point guard, Haley Jones, a former first round pick and a versatile wing, and Kamiyah Smalls, a reserve combo guard. The team responded by promoting developmental players Frieda Bruner and Holly Winterburn to standard contracts and adding Taya o', Block, all international players. And it's also important to note that they did sign Jordan Harrison to a development mental contract the day after they waived these three players. Now the roster moves prompted online discussion among fans regarding the Portland Fires roster makeup, particularly concerns about the limited number of black players. It is worth noting that Suge, Haley and Kamiyah were all waived and at the same time Frida Buhner and Holly Winterbourne were moved to standard contracts. It wasn't until like a little after that we saw that Jordan Harrison was being given a developmental contract as well and then Taya o' Block was added as well. This sparked some conversation and a lot of commentary around this and from what I saw and also messages that I got in my DMs to talk about this, it was about they waived three black players and they kept all white players. And again, I think this was some of these messages were sent to me before Jordan Harrison was signed and it was brought back. But either way, three black players are waived and it's not just three black players, it's players that have contributed to your team. Particularly you look at, you know, someone like Shug Sutton who was averaging 11 points and almost six assists on the year, veteran point guard, been in the league for four years and I think the night before she's waived had scored 14 points in a game and clearly was contributing 6 of 8 from the floor and had even gotten a Instagram post and, you know, social media posts highlighting her performance. And then is waived. There's also career best numbers. Exactly. And then there was Haley Jones, who a few nights before she was waived or like I think a week or two before, had scored 10 points off the bench and had contributed in her own way. And Camille Smalls as well. Camille Smalls had that really good game against New York two weeks back or so. Pretty much had had the shot that put the game away for them. And I see all of that and then the waving and then the players that are added are Frieda Buhner and Holly Winterburn, who aren't averaging anywhere near what these players had been averaging in terms of points, rebounds or assists and hadn't been that seemingly that relevant for the program. AKA had not been playing anywhere near like the same amount of minutes and. And contributing to what Portland was doing up until that point. So that's like the context. And sports commentators, wnba, particularly WNBA commentators on social media were saying, this is not okay. This is not cool that black players are being dismissed, that Portland Fire have a predominantly white team. There's context, lay of the, you know, the marketing materials that announced the team that had the white players predominantly prominently, excuse me, displayed, while the black players seem to be peripheral to them. And it seems like a lot of folks picked up on all of these things. And now we're here. Lay the first question I want to ask you before we get into the systems, the coaching philosophy, how all of this came to be and like, really examining what happened here with Portland. Why do you think this specific set of moves sparked such a strong reaction online?

[Lazia Clarendon]

God, I mean, one, I need the New York Times to put me on this health insurance plan. So I go to therapy more because having these conversations, right? Like, I know, I know it's my heartbeat.

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[Lazia Clarendon]

because it's a lot like it. It's so much carryover from that criticism conversation we had when I really was making the point of like, understanding intersectionality, understanding the wnba that like, you can't untangle race and class and gender in our country, unfortunately, right? Like, I would love to live in a world where we didn't have to talk about this all the time. And that is America. That is where we live. And things are so racialized. So I mean, my initial reaction was like, ooh, I had a. Like, oh, I'm activated. Like, I just saw it. That's my pure. And I think that's so many people's reactions. Like, you're activated when you see what point blank ex black players losing jobs. Insert white player. Like that's traumatizing in terms of what we have experienced in this country over and over and over and over again. Great. There's more money. Cool. Resources are happening. Wait, y' all lost your jobs? Like, that's very real. And I think that is just what I always want to honor with fans that, like the not gaslighting. Like, that's very real. And I felt that in myself. So I had to just sit with that for a minute, like, oh, God. And before I could even get to the basketball, like, right. Like, I'm just validating my own. Like, yep. I feel that because I was so excited. Black women getting paid. We're getting more money. Yay. Great. This is happening. So let me take a deep breath for that because.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah, yeah, it's real.

[Lazia Clarendon]

Yeah. And I think that's why fans have the reaction. Right. We can get into more of the basketball and the why and then what happens next. But yeah, it's very real. And I think that's the, the really insidiousness of racism in our country is that these are things we can't not look at through a lens.

[Ben Green (Hotels.com Advertiser)]

Yeah.

[Lazia Clarendon]

Like you can't write. It's like the colorblind thing. Let's just take it off.

[Zena Keda]

It's.

[Lazia Clarendon]

How do you not. You have to acknowledge it and see it. And so that's for me is the acknowledgment of it. And let's also talk about the basketball in the system and the moves and the why and the really get into more of it as well.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah, yeah, no, I, I agree with you in that the context of this country and pretty much anything that will ever be built and run in this country is going to have a racialized theme and undertone to it, whether you want to have it or not. And I know there's a lot of folks that are like, oh, we don't have to make everything about race. Unfortunately, you already did. Some of these things were built in before we could ever have a say. Right. In terms of the feelings, the interactions, the day to day experiences of certain people, they don't have a say in it. It's just the way that society and their everyday life plays out is that race and identity comes to the forefront. And when you talk about a league like the wnba, that isn't gonna go away. It's never going to go away. But what will have to not necessarily go away, but what will. What will have to grow and what will have to come about is with the growth of the wnba more, I think, interrogation from a basketball lens first, then trying to look at anything else past that. Unless the evidence is so overwhelming that it's like we can't get to the basketball. This is clearly racialized, which I think we saw with the Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese conversation. Right? Like we saw the evidence that was so very clear racially based in the things that people were saying and the ways that both players were being treated and talked about. So I want to, before we get into what actually happened with Portland and before we get into this conversation even further, I do want to give a disclaimer that, yes, Lay and I both identify as black, and I would say we're both proud of that. But I think it's important to also note that just because we both identify as black does not necessarily mean that we see all of these circumstances in the same way. Lay just laid out the fact that there are lenses, right? There are perspectives that we all have. And my black experience is different than lay's black experience. And Blay, you grew up where?

[Lazia Clarendon]

San Bernardino, California.

[Zena Keda]

California. I grew up in North Carolina. Different experiences. I'm also foreign born. I was born in France originally to Guinean parents. That has a different experience. I have a different perspective because of that. It's important to know that black people are not a monolith. And so when you might see things on social media where a person of color, you know, black person, is saying X, Y and Z about the Portland fire, about the wnba, et cetera, et cetera. One, let's just make sure we don't believe that everyone's on the same page and just assume that that is like the, this person is speaking for the masses. Okay. And two, and this goes back to that interrogation. And two, it's also important to note that not just because we're saying that they're not speaking for the masses doesn't mean we discount what they're saying. Right. Doesn't mean that their opinion, what they're observing doesn't matter. That's important to note too. And the last thing I'll say is for those that are kind of, that have reached out and they have said stuff and we've seen the comments about, oh, this podcast doesn't address the racial issues that are clearly in the wnba. Doesn't address, you know, racism in the wnba. There is a difference between having these type of conversations that we're about to engage in versus Portland Fire racist. There's a difference. There's a Difference between lobbying, accusations of racism on coaches, GMs, organizations, leagues, et cetera, fan bases, et cetera, versus calling out something that is clearly biased, calling out something that clearly has some racialized tones. We responsibly, as an extension of the Athletic and the New York Times, cannot be out here accusing people of being racist without evidence. It's irresponsible. And it also would jeopardize the work that our journalists do every single day covering these teams and covering this league. So, yes, we will have a measured approach to having these type of conversations in ways that you might see a WNBA commentator online not have measure. And it's important to interrogate that. Why is it that this person feels very comfortable saying this person is racist versus what's going on in the off season?

[Lazia Clarendon]

We have different platforms.

[Zena Keda]

It's different platforms. We have to come with different evidence. Okay, said all that. Let me get everybody.

[Lazia Clarendon]

We need everybody in the ecosystem. Yeah, those people who push us forward and, like, say the things that we're not always going to be able to say on this platform. I'm like, yes, go. Fire away.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah, yeah, agreed. Okay. So I say all that and let's take a pause. We're gonna put that on the mantle real quick. I don't want to put it on the back burner. We're gonna put on the mantle. It's there. And now let's get into this basketball conversation with Portland and shift to the actual roster. I. I have thoughts, and I want to know, Lay, if you. When you think about from a basketball perspective, what I want to know your

[Lazia Clarendon]

thoughts on the roster.

[Zena Keda]

Well, okay, so mine come from the people that are making these decisions. I immediately thought of, oh, Coach Alex Sarama, the gm, Vanya Chernovich. Now, Lay, do you. How much do you know about Alex Sarama's background and you know, Vanya Turnovich

[Lazia Clarendon]

and, like, what they're about, not probably similarly to the average fan who's just learning about them.

[Zena Keda]

Okay.

[Lazia Clarendon]

Because I know you have more of your Internet. Like, you'd be knowing the French players, like, when we started working together, I'd be like, dang, Zena, though. Like, you have more of an international lens based on your history and your background. Right. Like, you already knew some of these players.

[Zena Keda]

Sure.

[Lazia Clarendon]

I had it. So I think I'm coming more from a. More of a domestic lens of, like, okay, Alex was NBA cool. This guy came. I respect him, see his philosophy, things. No, Vanya from being at the Valkyrie. So I know. Well respected in terms of what the Valkyries Built last year. So in terms of, like, reputation and understanding, like, they know their stuff, because that's something with GM Ohima Nyan. Like, people are like, wait, why are they drafting these people left or right? I mean, like, nah. I'm like, oh, him. I knows what she's doing. Like, I. I was with her at USA Basketball, so I. I'll give myself more credit than that. But, like, in terms of seeing that they know the international game, which our game is growing in a global way, that's the point I'll get into kind of later. So.

[Zena Keda]

Okay.

[Lazia Clarendon]

I know some things.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah, you know some things. And I think that I do appreciate you saying, in terms of like, maybe their background, you might be like the average fan. You know, I think you know more basketball things. But in terms of like, where they. Where they're from and how they got to be here, maybe that's where your knowledge is a little bit more average. And I want to call this out because I think that that is true and that is fair that the average person does not know where all of these decision makers, from coaches to GMs across the WNBA doesn't know. So I think it's important for this conversation to lay that out. So the head coach of Portland is a man named Alex Sarama. He is 31 years old, incredibly young, and he is British, and he has a very unconventional resume in terms of WNBA head coaching history. Okay. He grew up in England. He was in administration and operations work for the NBA Europe League. He's coached in the Italian system. He was a player improvement specialist for Paris basketball. He was the director of methodology for the London Lions. Then he became the director of player development for the Portland Trailblazers G League affiliate, the Rip City Remix, and then became the director of player development under Kenny Atkinson at the Cleveland Cavaliers and was promoted to assistant coach before he left for this job. Okay, so one limited head coaching experience. A lot of player development experience worked at NBA Europe, and a lot of experience with European international basketball. Okay. The biggest thing though he's known for is he is this evangelist for something called the Constraints of LED Approach cla. It is a development methodology that is based in your motor skills being tested consistently. And it's like there's basically like motor skill theory and ecological learning, meaning the way that your motor skills are developing and learning are based on what's going on around you. It is basically read and react type of approaching. He did that at Cleveland. Kenny loved it. He's worked with Victor Wembanyama. He's Worked with Kelsey Plumb. He authored a book called Transforming Basketball about this theory. And he runs a platform as well about transforming basketball. His whole thing and pitch in his conversations with Portland to become head coach was he wanted an expansion team and thought it was ideal because that means he can hire people, both his team that works around him and also the team like the players that can fit within a new system and they don't have to unlearn a previous one. So rather than going to Dallas, for example. Right. And fulfilling a role with a team that already exists, he's going into a completely brand new system. Okay, so that is Alex. Cool. Anything new you learned there?

[Lazia Clarendon]

I like the point of the new system. That's something I feel like I didn't think about in terms of creating, like, unlearning habits or. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Also, I didn't know about his. Some of the history and background. Yeah, yeah. Like, really how he got here.

[Zena Keda]

Let's keep.

[Lazia Clarendon]

I could see, I think a point that I could see people making, and I'm like, ooh, I feel that rub.

[Zena Keda]

Oh.

[Lazia Clarendon]

Is the, like, the fact that black folks in this country don't get to have unorthodox paths to success. And that's the rub, right? Like, that's the. Like, here we are. And it's like, even if Alex is like, all these great qualifications and we've seen so many black coaches who. Now the shift is changing where all. A lot of these black women were head coaches back when they didn't have resources. Right. That's what we often see. Like, oh, we're in positions of power. Finally. It's like, we got no practice facility. And then you're like, oh, wow, Poggy's just a terrible coach. So and so's a terrible coach. She didn't do a good job. And sometimes black people aren't good coaches. That's also a fact. Right. But as a mass level, a systemic level. Right. That's the part where you're like, I'm like, dang. I love that for Alex. I love that players are getting coached now in a way with so much like a clarity in a system and learning how to read and react, getting more of the international play. Like, there's brilliant coaches across the country. And I think the rub is like, dang. I know we got brilliant black people. I know we got brilliant brown people. I know we got coaches. Acosta. And then you're starting. That's that rub for folks, right? Is like, not that you don't want any of it. You want People to. You just want, you actually want equal opportunities so then we can be on level playing fields to then beat each other out. So that's. Yeah, that's kind of my. To acknowledge that for folks.

[Zena Keda]

Okay, yeah, no, we're. This is, this is what we're going to talk about after the basketball. Because this, this is real and this is part of why I'm laying this out for a reason.

[Lazia Clarendon]

So stick with me.

[Zena Keda]

Just stick with me. Let's just stick on the basketball real quick. But I'm laying this out for a reason and you're already kind of touching on some of the things that I do eventually want to get to. Okay. Let's also talk about Vanya Chernovich, the GM of the Portland Fire. Cernovich is from Slovenia and she built her career on international scouting and ground up roster construction. She actually, to paraphrase, kind of what she did for a long time. She worked also in NBA Europe. She worked for the Chicago Bulls. She was the franchise's first female international scout. She worked for the London Lions as a general manager and then came to become the vice president of basketball operations under GM Omanyanen. And before, when she was with NBA Europe and worked internationally with NBA, she would place the likes of players like Adam Malanga or AWA Fom. Not those players. I'm not saying that those are the players, but players that were internationally based. She would put them in programs or teams and academies. Right back when NBA had academies around the world, she would place them there so that they could get developed and they could be noticed. So she had a very up close and personal relationship with a lot of international talent because she was one of the first people they interacted with from the NBA offices as they started their journeys. So when you look at the Golden State Valkyries and the way that they were created in the. In the roster last year, 19 players had kind of circulated through Golden State's roster over the year. Ten of them were born outside the US and then in September, she became the Portland Fire's inaugural gm. So now I've laid out Vanya, I've laid out Alex. Here are the connections. Sarama worked with Cernovich at the NBA Europe office in Madrid many years ago. Cernovich was the GM of the London Lions when Sarama was the director of methodology at the London Lions. So they worked together and they were very familiar and they implemented the player development strategy for both the men and women's programs at the London Lions. Mind you, the London Lions won Euroleague in 2024. Um, excuse me. Euro Cup. The Euro. I always mess that up. The Euro Cup.

[Lazia Clarendon]

Championship.

[Zena Keda]

Euro Cup.

[Lazia Clarendon]

That one's good. Yep.

[Zena Keda]

Um, and Chernovich also believed that she was. She was quoted to say, the beautiful part about us is being able to start from scratch. When asked about the chance, you know, for the. To build something without legacy systems to unlearn, she said, it's very hard to unlearn what people know and open their minds to something different. When she said what the process was to hire Alex Rama, she, quote, said that she was looking for someone brave enough to step away from how things have always been done. Now that all being said, you see the synergies between Sarama and Vanya Turnovic and you see that they're all on the same page with at least one big thing. Being a team that starts from scratch. No old norms, no old habits to unlearn. All the above. Start from scratch. Now, I'm going to quickly lay out some of the connections to the people on the roster. Megan Gustafson, she was on that 20, 23, 2024 London Lions team where Ternovich was the GM and Alex Roma was the director of methodology, and she helped them win that Euro cup women's championship, which was the first major European title for that club. And she was the big, big time player. She averaged 16 points and five rebounds in that. That was Megan Gustafson.

[Lazia Clarendon]

Oh, Megan, yeah.

[Zena Keda]

Carly Samuelson, she also played for the London Lions. She was a Euro Cup Finals MVP in that championship year. So that's also really important. Karla late Chernovich knows her from, obviously her time at Golden State Valkyries. Taya Oblock, a Slovenian player, also the first Slovenian player, I guess, to play in the WNBA when she just recently played. I did not know that, but that was the first Slovenian player. And where is Vanya Chernovic? From Slovenia and is very familiar with the Slovenian national players, including Tea Oblock, who was Slovenia's longtime national team captain. She's also 35 years old. So this is a player that Vanya has known for a long time and is very familiar with. Then you keep going. You know who else was on the London Lions? Holly Winterburn.

[Lazia Clarendon]

Recent.

[Zena Keda]

Recent. And then there's other players that have played in. In Europe and have been, you know, familiar with them. Frieda Bierner played in Germany and is from Germany and Louise goes as well. Okay, so I've laid all that out. And I say all that to say my big thing is when I look at who they waived. Suge Sutton, Haley Jones, Kamiyah Smalls and I look at who they kept, Frida Bruner, Holly Winterburn, brought in Taya o' Block and got Jordan Harrison. The main thing I see is confirmation of what Alex Sarama and Vanya Turnovich have been wanting to do. Taya, Jordan, Frida and Holly are all rookies. They have never played in the WNBA before. And even if they're older, like you know, Taya is 35 years old. She's never played in the W before. She's only played in the Slovenian system or in Europe. And, and Cernovich is familiar with that. Those players fit their system and also fit what they want to do in terms of starting from scratch. If any of those players would have been black, I think they still would have kept those players, which is what made me remove race from this and more. So look at the style of play and the years of experience and that is where the bias sets in. They were biased towards younger players, they were biased towards players that didn't have habits to unlearn and they were biased towards international players. And unfortunately, rather than it race being the causation, it was a correlation in the sense that these international players happen to be more white than they are black. So that is how there's more to it too. I also think the style of play that leans into constraints led approach doesn't align with the style of play that Suge Sutton had and Kamiyah Smalls had specifically. And I think that Haley Jones's game was restricted in a way from how her play came out of Stanford in a post dominant system. I think that all three of those players did not fit the CLA system that Sarama wanted. And also the youth, the starting from scratch, the identity that they're trying to build. And that is why they were dismissed less so than they were dismissed because they were black and they wanted white players instead. That's it. Yeah,

[Lazia Clarendon]

I think you laid everything out very well in terms of the history in the background and I always appreciate how researched you are because that's really important and that's something like people don't always take the time to do the work for or to understand. So thank you for that because now I know things that I didn't know also before. Yeah, I don't buy it fully in terms of that because you can't separate them. So I do see the basketball systems and structures and I wish I'd been at training camp to also see behind the scenes because I've talked before about how people like my favorite person got Cut. And I'm like, she's late all the time. Sorry. Like, you don't even know that. Right. But. But I actually thought, based on what I'm hearing and I haven't been in his camp, that Sug's game, Shug's game would translate more because she seemed to be a very cerebral player. Like, when she was at Phoenix, she was so hard to guard. Of course she can go one on one. She can penetrate and kick like that. She was a player who didn't have to play, like, in a system like a Stanford or more like a Haley or like, the players who, like, have to play in training tracks. Like, she's more of an Erica Wheeler who can, like, get saucy. She's a scoring point guard. So when I looked at it roster wise, I do think it's clear they're going international. And then you have to ask that question of, like, who fits that faze? International. It makes sense. Or like, were there no international black players on the teams? I love Carly. It makes sense that Carly, I know she played for London. We would text and talk about it, but I just don't. I don't buy the story fully in terms of, like, there wasn't one other, you know, or like, you start to be like, really there were there. All the players just happened to be like, in all of the. All of the black. For, like, Gabby Williams playing for France. Like, there's black. We, like, black folks are also global and international. So I also. I don't let people off the hook in terms of the way that black people exist across time and space. Like, we're in Great Britain. We have Timmy. We've seen black folks. We. Janelle Salon. Right. Like, we know there's black international players. Every time Tony Parker used to talk, I'd be like, God dang. It throws me off because I always expected him to sound like a black American. And it would just be like, it would take me a minute because of the way I've also been socialized in America is like, we haven't been exposed to as many black folks language being global in the same way. So that's kind of my point of, like, I could see what Portland's doing. Yes. And I do challenge and look at them and be like, okay, make sure you're questioning your bias of what your roster looks like in terms of the best talent. And I think when we talk about iq, this is the part that I think is so insidious about and so difficult to change in our country is the way Things are woven into the fabric of like who has a smart iq, who gets to be cerebral or like who's shooters. We've talked on this a little bit, right? Of like his system wants to be like well he wants to play fast, he wants to play smart, he wants high IQ players who can play in the cla, right? People who can read and react. And we often when we talk about the WNBA generally as a broad spectrum, we talk about. And there's some truth to this because white players historically aren't as as fast as quick, right? Like black folks are quicker and faster as they like there's a reason why we dominate in the 400 meter or the fastest people in the world. Like our genetics are we have more fast twitch muscles. Like there are reasons for this stuff that exists to stereotype threats. So I think there's truth to. In terms of some white players have had to learn how to be smarter, they've had to learn how to move better without the ball. They haven't been able to rely on their athleticism generally speaking, right. These are like the stereotypes. So then what comes with that generally is I got white players are smarter, which is not always the truth. And some have some white players are hella athletic and more than black players. Like it's like you have that stereotype threat. When you look, you're like damn Sammy Wickham. You don't expect to go guard the white player and be like ah, she about to be slow and papa you're left in the dust.

[Zena Keda]

You're like Jade Melbourne is a direct example of that is not the case.

[Lazia Clarendon]

So it's all this stereotype threat that we exist with, right Is like that's kind of my take is to make sure that we are being anti racist in our view of things. Like are we understanding that those Vanya and Alex understanding that those exist and when we make these decision decisions are we looking at them across the board to say oh let me make sure like I'm being clear on when I'm marketing or who I think is smart because from a peer basketball perspective, when I looked and I Haley Jones family is amazing and I love her as, as a human being. I was like, yeah, when I break down the game, she's a tough fit. I think she's a tough fit in the league for a few reasons. One being she doesn't have a skill set that sticks out. She's a bit of like can do a little bit of everything but isn't great at any one thing and her do a little Bit of everything isn't high enough in terms of Swiss Army Knife. Like she. We can't put her in the same bracket as like a Gabby Williams or Kayla Thoran or like I can put her anywhere on the floor. I think she's not quite strong enough to defend for her size. Like she can play point guard, but she can't quite score enough from the point guard position. You can't do that in the league. It's. The league is too good. She can post up a bit, but she's not quite strong enough to be like, you just put her at the 3, 4. So I see when you look at her game, I'm like, ooh, I want her to develop. I want her to find a way that she can have a niche that really helps her stick in this league. Because right now it's just like, yeah, so that's my like hard basketball take is like, yeah, I could see how she doesn't fit on the roster. Shug a little more. I was like, ooh, I could see how rookie contract go with the younger player. You get to develop them. She's 35. Like that one too. I was like, I wrestled with that a bit more and I'm not in camps to see, but I was like, dang. And I just had to sit with it also, like, yeah, this is a reality. And I think there's truth to the fact that our league is the best league in the world and we haven't had to contend with the true breadth of global talent because the money wasn't there. And it made more sense for international players to stay in their home country, make their money. Like, why would they come to America to make. To be $46,000, right. And live in a big ass city that you can't afford to live in. So now there is a true reality to our league that we will be. I think the NBA has gone through this of like all their international talent is like, we are having to reconcile with the best talent in the world. And folks who, players who played overseas have been like, they know there's some people over there who are better than players in our league who don't come over. And now with the growth of the league, we're like, ooh, that talent pool just got a lot bigger and a lot more competitive. And that's also a reality that like the racial part, I won't shy away from be like, it's just because of that. It's like, ooh, that competition got bigger. Like, sure, yeah, there come like the jobs are harder to come by now.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah, no, this is, this is a really great, I think, segue into getting back to the conversation that we started with in terms of people's reactions, because I think it would be irresponsible to say there is no racial, no racial aspect to this. The way I look at it as when I say we should interrogate the situation rather than interrogate the people involved. Excuse me, interrogate the situation first rather than interrogate the people involved first. Not saying that people involved should be abstained, you know, or absolved from there, but interrogating the situation requires the question of how and why did this happen? And how is if this is going to happen again, what can we do to solve for it, to help the situation out? Right. And that is what I'm laying out. I think that is what happened is that these two people made these decisions and I'm assuming they're, you know, coaching staff was involved in it too. But these, these, this team, Portland made this decision for their, their roster and did not consider the optics and did not consider enough of have we truly done our due diligence to ensure that. We're examining all of the available talent to ensure that it doesn't look like we are hoarding white talent in the Pacific Northwest.

[Lazia Clarendon]

It's gotta give you also the regional, like Pacific Northwest in terms of. It's really fascinating to talk about the regions of the W versus in Atlanta versus the Pacific Northwest.

[Zena Keda]

Right.

[Lazia Clarendon]

Will we start to see more of that reflection based on region? I'm curious.

[Zena Keda]

Right. And like, are we, are we keeping players to make our fan base happy? Which from what I've heard from Portland Fire fans, white, black, in between, all of us, all over. No one's really necessarily happy about this and how it went down. From what I've seen, people are just kind of like, this looks suspect. And I think that is the, that's the part that we have to really talk about is if we're interrogating this situation, how do we avoid this happening again? Because this isn't gonna go away. As you just laid out, the league is going to. Is only going to get bigger. So when you look at leagues especially built in the United States, the WNBA is a pretty unique one in that it was. It's been 30 years. And it was started after racial segregation in ways that other leagues have not. Right. You look at major leagues in this country, a lot of them started before racialized segregation. And so those leagues had to experience something similar, similar to what the W is experiencing from an international's perspective. Right. I take the NBA for example. They started 75 plus years ago before racialized or racial integration was normal. And so the first wave they had was oh, black players are taking white men's spots and then they continued and they went through their period and then it was all, oh, international players are starting to take our spots. And now that is the, the realm they're in. I think they've kind of accepted it. It's part of, you know, that's what Adam Silver's all about, is that international growth. But you look at the NBA's MVPs in the last 10 years, majority of them have been international this year alone, Shay Gildas, Alexander, Nicole Jokic, Victor romanyama, the top three options for, you know, MVPs to some people. But those were all international. Sure, the racial aspect isn't as big of a thing anymore, but it's all international versus American born products. And so that's the question the NBA is having. This is now the W's question of okay, we have typically had the best talent in the world be born and bred here in the United States. And now that the money is here, that pool is opening up and people are feeling like, oh, with the pool opening up, money is now going to white players. And it's not just white players, it's white players that are international. So I want to interrogate that aspect. More international players coming in and taking roster spots from us born players. Let's, I know we can't untangle but for a second let's take out the race aspect and talk about the fact that international players are taking more spots from American born players. What is it about the international development pipeline versus the NCAA US College system that differs in terms of preparing players for the WNBA where you're seeing these international players take spots, quote, unquote.

[Lazia Clarendon]

Yeah, yeah. Ooh, you're getting to the good stuff now because I think that's, I mean one we've hit on it with like Dom and Aelf and these players who are getting developed much younger, they're playing pro at a much younger age. So you think about a 15 year old player who's already playing with their French national team or even going to training camps. And I think about it in the US in terms of like our college players who get to play in the senior national team, you're seeing them get that early kind of experience. But across the board, if you think about a 15 year old, what we're doing in the States, it varies depending on your travel ball team, your high School team and the experience can be night or day in terms of how the level of talent. So for me, I remember playing with my local team and then driving really far to finally start playing for a better travel ball team and what my parents invested in, who had players who flew from all over, not internationally, but we had a player who flew in from Vegas, we had other people and I needed to jump my talent pool. Like I was too good of the best player constantly in my local team and my local team out of Riverside, we would go play in the leagues but like I was just the best player and it was like, wasn't I never had to grow. And so then playing for the better travel ball team, it was.

[Zena Keda]

I was like woo.

[Lazia Clarendon]

Like I was getting challenged in a way I never had. I started learning what icing was before going to college even I started learning. I started playing with like I just. The game went up another level and like that would be my hope for more players in the States to get that kind of development. But I could see the difference between if I had stayed with that local team and gone to college versus that growth that I made that one year. Then you talk about your college team and where you go and your coaching staff and what access you're getting to across the board. We've talked about the dons of the world, the ginos of the world, the like who really prepare their players for the W. And unfortunately in the college system it's a very shoe. Yeah, it's really like a. It's a very wide breadth. And of course internationally it's a wide breadth too. It's not every international coach is phenomenal. But generally when you think of age, there are these players in terms of talent pool who are getting that leisure experience on the travel ball team they're getting that at 14, 15, 16, they're already getting to play with their senior national teams. It's different than playing on your travel ball team where you're just playing with the oldest players going to still be in high school. You're not getting that. You're already. So think about Flage having already been playing with an international level player like her development think about and she and LSU I think is fine in terms of development. But think about your favorite college player and if they were playing with a senior national team and what that would do for the development. So I think that's kind of a way I'm trying to frame it as an example of the maturity level that people get to experience across the board because you're on Your senior national team, you're literally more worldly. We talk about that with these. The coddling of some players in the. In the states and their college programs and how they don't develop these players for life. Getting them prepared to be a part of. Be a functioning adult who can check their email and a professional who knows how to show up on time. Like be a professional. And that's something we do have to reconcile with in the States across programs. And so I think in that way. And that's something American culture really struggles with. With the way we coddle and the way we also safety in America. Like there's just so much here that's really difficult to reconcile with versus globally. Some more of the things we can talk about with safety and kind of being older, mature. Like the French parenting, for example, is something my partner and I really. We read bringing up BEI Bay and they talked about pausing and how much there's more of a laid back in French culture. Like it's less of the American anxiety and the like, oh my God, my child. And like the. The like Dodie, like why are we doing that with our kids? There's more of a. Like raising your child to be of the world.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah.

[Lazia Clarendon]

That's a very big cultural difference that international players you're seeing with AWA coming in. I'm like, whoa. I'm almost so shocked that someone's that mature at her age. But you can tell the way she's been raised in a culture that raised taught her to be more of this world. And then her basketball was clearly developed really well that she has that overall bringing. So I think there's a maturity level that really affects the way you can translate into the league that people don't talk about enough. That is like it's outside of skill set in terms of like X's and O's. But it's a very big skill.

[Zena Keda]

Yes.

[Lazia Clarendon]

That is a part of your game. And that talent that is being evaluated constantly is how do you show up? How professional are you? And yes, those things can become racialized. How we view people. Right. Of like wearing, you know, your hood on your head or wearing certain things like that. That real. And also I played with folks like you gotta show up on time. Like that stuff matters. Like I can hold the totality of all of that because I lived it and breathed it.

[Zena Keda]

Sure.

[Lazia Clarendon]

And I saw across the board.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah.

[Lazia Clarendon]

So I think that's. Yeah. And the development.

[Zena Keda]

Interesting.

[Lazia Clarendon]

Yeah.

[Zena Keda]

No, and that skill set internationally. So many points. Yes. Okay. Skill set.

[Lazia Clarendon]

Yeah.

[Zena Keda]

Because I think because Another thing that comes about when on both sides of basketball, men and women's, is this idea that international players are more fundamental. And I'm putting my air quotes on that they're more fundamental, their shot is more fundamental, the way that they play the game, their passes are more fundamental. You used the word earlier, saucy. There are very few players coming over from international games that are considered quote unquote saucy. Now those players that are saucy have a little bit of a crazy handle, have, you know, those crazy passes, they usually skyrocket up in, you know, in this, the American leagues, they, they, they put themselves on a pedestal because they play like an American. And so it's very interesting how in certain ways that aspect is celebrated and invited, but in other ways, and this is where I, I think that you can't untangle some of the racial elements is that when I think about saucy players, I think majority black players, when I think about sauciness, I think about having a handle and getting to the mid range. And when you think about players that shoot in the mid range, in the WNBA, right now, if I counted 10 players that are exceptional at it, there are about two that would be white that come to mind. And so that aspect of a game of someone being having a little bit more sauce on their passes in a potential. And I'm just thinking of a hypothetical, in a constraints led approach, you might make the pass, but you might put a little extra on it, right? You might make the read, but it took you maybe an extra little fancy dribble to get to whatever it is that you're supposed to get to. And that aspect of it I think is also interesting from a skill set of how they're evaluated and how these women are evaluated.

[Lazia Clarendon]

Yeah. Do you mean in terms of like executing passes, like in terms of international players getting like knowing how to make reads earlier because of the talent pool that they're playing with?

[Zena Keda]

Not even necessarily. Because the thing is, I'm actually, I have not touched even on the cerebral IQ aspect of it yet. And I think you bringing that up was really, was really smart. I'm actually just genuinely thinking about the mechanics of how they do it. Right. Because I remember even in college I had a particular player who was unbelievable, like so adept at these crazy no look passes and was recruited for this reason because she made these crazy passes. She was so fast with the ball, was fun with the ball, and then when she got to school, it was like they tried to train that out of her and she was actually a black player from Riverside or from Southern California. And I remember that being like. Like that being shunned upon or like just frowned upon. Excuse me. Whereas other players that were more fundamentally sound, that made, you know, without the flashiness, without the extra sauce on it, that was celebrated. And that is something that I feel like also plays into this and thinking about particularly like a Suge Sutton or a Kamiyah Smalls. Was their game too flashy in the way that they executed the cla approach? And does that happen to black American players in the way that they play versus some of these international players that come along and make the same plays may have the same iq, but the way that it's executed is more in alignment with a particular way that a coach wants to run their team and execute their plays and wants it to look on film.

[Lazia Clarendon]

This is interesting because when I think of. I think of swag versus sauce, almost like the swag feels like the players. And that's like probably racialized too in terms of like. I think of the swaggiest players in the league, like the Chelsea Grays, the folks who, you know, Simone Augustus, who's got the cappy conduct. There's like the Kennedy Carter. Like the like. Break your ankles. Yeah, the. Cause the like, ah, like it's nasty.

[Zena Keda]

I said caught Collier, because I literally listened to a social media video making fun of the fact that people don't know her name. Sorry, Cac Hopper. Thank you. Continue.

[Lazia Clarendon]

And then the. I think of like the Tshirt pin and trails. And I'm doing this because that's literally how the international players be swinging that ball. Like, I think of like their style and flair. It's very like flamboyant is the word.

[Zena Keda]

I think of international.

[Lazia Clarendon]

Yeah. Chechy. I think if Tisha Benituro comes to mind, like I look back at some of the videos of Tisha, be like, girl, you did not need to turn your head with that pass like Tisha. And then, ah, you know, the like the like you weren't actually done looking like they be. They do that a lot. So I think of them in terms.

[Zena Keda]

Marie Johannes.

[Lazia Clarendon]

Yes. Marine. Yeah, exactly. Like, you know, when Marina made that roster in terms of is she flashy or not? Who knows? Like, I don't care to start parsing every single player. Sure, sure, sure. But I think the thing about international play, one's very specific skill set is learning like a pocket pass very earlier in your career. So if one example is who's learning how when you make a pocket pass, when you come off a pick and roll, a guard comes off the roll and the pocket is where you're hitting the post on the roll.

[Zena Keda]

Right?

[Lazia Clarendon]

Learning to pocket pass with one hand and not two is like a really very big deal. And the amount of time it takes you to execute a pocket pass when you put two hands on the ball versus one is the difference between a turnover or getting it there on time. I remember learning that in the back half of my career of like coming off a screen and we're taught to be fundamental. Two hands on the ball, pocket like no, that's slow. You gotta be able to pass it. You want to be able to pass with one hand. You have to practice to have the skill to have the control to pass with one hand. Something Sabrina needed to learn in Esku. Coming in was like she pocket that thing so high. Like she, it, she still kind of gets away with it. Cuz she's good enough because she can shoot well enough. But like the high, everyone knows it's coming. Or Sabrina like she's the player always puts two hands on the ball but she can pass over her head and she does like she steps out of it. Like that's kind of always bothered me about her game. Like I want her to do it smoother and I think she has developed that. Chelsea Gray is one of the people who can pass left, right, one hand, two hands doesn't matter behind the back. Sometimes that feels like no hands. Right. And I love that example because it just shows one, how you're being coached across the spectrum and the globe. But I think that's an international skill set that's being taught earlier. Because if you're playing in a national team level, you're getting that national, you're getting a higher level of coaching. You're playing against the best talent in the world versus the best talent in your age bracket. That's why it's so great for the USA players who get to play 16 under. I played 19 and under and that like changed my trajectory of my career. Also. I, I went to play internationally with Skyler Neca, Kelly Ferris, like I was over there playing in Thailand and Bangkok and I got exposed to like playing the Brazilian national team and like, whoa, that's different. And had I got to play against that level of talent night in the night, that also would have been different.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah, no, that's real.

[Lazia Clarendon]

It's interesting. And I'm not saying domestic international is like across the board talented, better. I think the styles are really different. And now we're reconciling with this idea of being a league that is the best in the world. And I used to like, with the NBA, like, you can't say you're the best in the world if you don't have the best talent in the world. Like, truly the best talent in the world. Like, you're the NBA's about, like, well, you don't even have the best players. Like, you have to contend with Jokic because he's one of the best players in the world. And if our league is going to grow to be the best league in the world, then we need to have the best talent in the world to reflect that. Ooh. And I think that's really important.

[Zena Keda]

That's a perfect place to pause. And we're going to pick this conversation back up on just that conversation. As we continue to see the WNBA grow, how do we reconcile with some of these racialized tensions, but also with the stylistic differences that are gonna show up on the floor? How do we interrogate the system and find ways to ensure that we don't feel like black women are being pushed out right when the league continues to grow? Stay with us. Seeking, pushing, optimizing, creating, learning, discovering. At Aramco, we believe in harnessing the power of data to push the limits of what's possible. That's how we deliver reliable energy to millions across the world. Aramco, an integrated energy and chemicals company. Learn more about [e-mail] ActiveCampaign is the marketing automation platform built for big swings and big dreams. Generate ideas in seconds. Import your brand and create full campaigns with simple prompts. Get started for [e-mail] shipping, billing, admin, payroll, marketing.

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[Zena Keda]

Okay, so we know that WNBA is not going away anytime soon. Thirty years in, which is a great thing. We know, we love that. And it's not what we started with this interrogation of what happened in Portland. This is gonna happen again. Moves are gonna be made that are gonna make you go, oh damn, what happened here? And not everyone is gonna be able to cause even me. I immediately was like, do they not like black girls or black women, like, what's going on? And I had to do the work, to look at the people involved and look at the system involved and all the above to be like, okay, I'm going to interrogate this situation and see this is what happened. It doesn't remove the fact that something racial did happen. Right. It doesn't remove the fact that the bias that was shown through the system and the international talent, et cetera, did result in three black women losing their job and three white women taking a, and getting a job. I don't want to say taking as if, you know, they, they stole it, but getting a job in replacement of these black women. It is also fair to say Jordan Harrison did get a job and she is a black woman. But this isn't going to go away. And we're going to have to keep doing this sort of interrogation of the situations at hand before we just jump to, oh my God, the entire league is racist and everyone doesn't want black women to win because that's like the deep end. And I've seen some people jump into the deep end, but some people are kind of waiting around in that 4ft area, slowly getting over to the 6 foot, to the 8 foot. And I want to ask you, lay, I have, I think we're on the same page on this. But knowing that Alexrama is not going to be the last international coach, knowing that there are no black women head coaches in the WNBA today, knowing that we're getting more GMs that are also of different backgrounds, not just WNBA backgrounds, but NBA backgrounds, international backgrounds, et cetera. How do we not jump off into the deep end every time something like this happens? And how can we avoid things like this happening where people want to jump off the deep end?

[Lazia Clarendon]

Well, this is why I get paid the big bucks. Because, Lord, there you go.

[Zena Keda]

Let's go.

[Lazia Clarendon]

Ah, ah, ah, ah. I mean, there's a few things. One. Oh, God. I think one, there's like, like, for myself, I think about what I'm ingesting on a daily perspective. I think speaking to the individual person is like, I have been trying to figure out how to not be in the state of like constant activation and trigger in this country with everything going on. I think that's frankly something. And I think at this moment in time with everything going on in our country, that folks are looking to the W to continue to be that place of social justice. And then it feels like it's slipping away. And that's really activating. And it's like this, this Was the one place, the one reprieve, the one. The one like. Or I could rely on it. And so I want to acknowledge that. And also that's a lot of pressure for the league to just constantly, always be that thing. And so really protecting yourself and your mental health and like, how you're ingesting this stuff every day and like, you know, keep listening to our podcast, keep liking and all the things, but, you know, like, take your breaks off social when you need it in terms of like going down these rabbit holes where you're just so worked up and so. And like, like, at the end of the day, these people are getting paid to win games and they're going to do what they need to do to try and win basketball games. Right? Like, we've all seen it and it's really activating and triggering the thing I will say almost as a call to action for fans and like, how to use that rage and that anger and that like the fact that there is injustice that absolutely exists in the wnba and I've talked about it for years even as I came out and all the things is almost the call to action to keep putting pressure on, like, the coaches, GMs and owners in a way that says, and this is like, I, I deeply believe this in myself is that, like, as the league grows and gets more successful, these coaches, international or not, have a duty in this country to make sure that the talent pool of black women and black people does not shrink. You do not get to come here, live here in America. Either way, like, international or not, it's not us versus them in a league that has been built off the backs of black labor and black folks and queer folks. And then all of a sud. Put a lens on that just says, I want to be successful. Here's how I'm going to do it without also, like, opening the door to make sure that that talent pool reflects the players that you are coaching and continuing to coach and continue to have built up this league. And so that might be like some critical race training theory that might be understanding, like, when you go to a different country. When I played in Prague, I wanted to understand the culture that I lived in. I. I learned that they were involved in World War II. That's why the roads were old. Like, I understood the, the culture and the system and like, the lived there. So part of being in a place is understanding the culture. And in American culture, we have a deep history of racism. And so like, there is a duty to understanding that. And even if you don't get in the nitty gritty race, like critical race theory, all of that. As a coach and a general manager, it is to say that I want to give access to this type of coaching. Like, I want people to have. I want black women to have access to this type of. What does it see? I want to say CMA cla. Like, I want the fact that Alex knows this and is bringing a dope new style of play to the league. That sounds like it would have been really fun to play in Coach Nakase's system. Sounds so fun to play in. Like going at her practices. Like, I'm like, damn, I wish I still played just to be in there for a minute. I love that players in this league are getting access to high level coaching because it has been too long where our talent pool and the breadth of coaching has not been good enough for years. And that's a fact, a statement of fact. And it needed to grow and it needed to change. And I want GMs to have a duty to say, okay, that can't just whitewash this league. That is not okay. That is absolutely not okay. To get more money, more access and then that, to reflect that with growth and with commercialism, to be successful, things need to be white. And that's just not true. And so that to me is the duty and the call to action.

[Zena Keda]

I'm 1000% with you. And I think that there's. I don't know all of the things. And I'd actually be curious, like, if anyone from the league is listening, I'd be curious to hear what programs are set up behind the scenes. Cause of course we see in New York, Courtney Paris is on the bench beside Chris DiMarco. And in Portland, Sylvia Fowles is on the bench beside Alex Sarama. And we see the fact that there are former players alongside these head coaches, but how often are they getting head coaching positions?

[Lazia Clarendon]

That's where we're like, that's the issue.

[Zena Keda]

That's where the block is. And so addressing that, I think is important. But I agree with you. Even if you're an international person, that. Which actually, no, I don't even want to encourage this. You do need to know the racial background of this country. But if you're someone that doesn't want to stay mired in that and you're like, well, guess what? Dive into the rich history of the black women that helped build this league and understand why it is so important and imperative that when you look at the way that your, your roster is made up, sure, absolutely. Prioritize who fits your system and who fits what you're doing and who is gonna help you win a championship. But also interrogate yourself. Now the introspection comes in right before it was, let's interrogate the situation. But now this is where we're talking about interrogating yourself and truly looking into the things that motivate you and checking your biases, as you mentioned. To do I have blinders on? And is there a reason that the people that I am evaluating as being capable of playing within this system all happen to be white, or if they are black, they are international.

[Lazia Clarendon]

Right.

[Zena Keda]

And that's something that I encourage on top of whatever training there is with the wnba. Like, that would be mandatory bias training within the WNBA leadership owners on down from the people they're hiring to be their GMs, the people they're hiring to be their coaches, and then the people they're hiring to play for their teams. I think is really, really important. I want you to give us just one takeaway of as we continue to have these type of conversations and the Internet continues to have, you know, the conversations they're having online. I want you to hit that point again, that takeaway of, like, what's needed in the ecosystem. Because I think it's important to know you might see something out there that you might not agree with, but it will force you to think.

[Lazia Clarendon]

Yeah, you know what I mean? I think in an ecosystem, you need different roles. It's like a team. It's like the galaxy I think about, like, on all the planets while I was educated in America.

[Zena Keda]

Dang Lei, Jupiter, Mars.

[Lazia Clarendon]

Oh, no.

[Zena Keda]

Yeah, you got some of them. There you go. Continue that.

[Lazia Clarendon]

It's important to have the people who push us forward. Right? It is important to have the people who are out there being like, no, we need to question this bias. Like, is that racist? Like, is this? Is this? Is this? And you need the folks who. Across the spectrum, it's really important. And I think the point of black folks not being a monolith, I think the idea of we need to let go of this rigid idea of, like, what makes us this identity around being socially just is something I've been working through and excavating in myself of, like, if I see X person and they're a black person online and they're very influential and they believe this X, Y and Z is racist, I can't disagree or I can have a different take, or I can't also agree with part of it. Like, for me, the big thing is learning the Reason I love being on this podcast and wanting to have more of these conversation is there's room for nuance. The hard thing about social is the nuance. There's just, there's times I'm like, ooh, I want to, I want to thread this. I want to. And I'm like, God, it's going to fall short because I'd have to write a literally like a thesis to really be able to get to the breadth of all of this nuance. So how do we have the conversations with more room and more spaciousness and doing it in ways that understanding on social, they're important and you're going to be able to have some of them, but they're kind of more topline. It's harder to get into the nitty gritty. So, like, getting back to having those combos with friends or small groups is like, hey, yo, let's talk about it. Like, what did you think? And some might be like, yeah, I actually thought the rosters was a good move. But damn, it hurt to see black people not having a job, like, and doing it in a safe place. It's not always safe on social. It is having these conversations where there's too many people involved at times. And I think about as black folks, people, anyone who is marginalized by any identity. When you're having conversations in this very large, vast, unregulated social media space, it is not always safe.

[Zena Keda]

Safe.

[Lazia Clarendon]

So is it safe for you to keep putting yourself in that place to have those conversations? I. No, it's not for me. And that's why I have removed myself from having those type of in depth conversations on social. I will not do it anymore, period. And you're hearing that from like a social justice warrior. I'm like, nah, what you're not going to do is have me exposed to trolls and all these people and like, frankly, having some conversations in front of people, I don't need to be having those conversations in front of or need to be privy to.

[Zena Keda]

Agreed. Agreed. Lei, you're like my fairy godparent. I appreciate that. Just starting this pod with a deep breath and closing it out with, is this a safe space for you? I love this. And I think that the wnba, if you're gonna be a fan of it, you have to have that type of pause and understand that right now with a lot of eyeballs comes a lot of opinions, comes a lot of comments, and you have to interrogate all of it. And as much as you can, try to start with the basketball first and then lean into all the other things that make you who you are, obviously your identity and the things that you care about and why you love these players, et cetera. Don't ignore that. And that's how you can have those multiple those nuances as Lei mentions come to life in the way that you look at this sport and you support this sport and you critique this sport. Another great conversation and I'm very grateful to have had it with you. Leigh. Thank you so much for indulging me on this and I appreciate all of you all listening. We will get back to just the basketball on Friday. Annie and Sabrina have a fun and insightful conversation once again, particularly thinking about teams that we should potentially should we be worried? Well, you'll see what I mean by that when you listen on Friday and make sure if you haven't signed up already, sign up for the newsletter. It's popping. It comes out every Tuesday. It tells you everything you need to know in a very nicely short package way. It's been a lifesaver for me. I love that pod the newsletter. So definitely check it out and subscribe Wherever you're listening, YouTube, on social media, et cetera. We wanna make sure that you are part of our community and having nuanced in these conversations. On behalf of the Athletic and Lazia Clarendon, I am Zena Keda thanking you for listening and we'll see you next time. No Off Season is hosted by Zena Kada with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant, Blasia Clarendon and Annie Costable. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producer is Andrea B. Scott. Monica Compton is our video editor. Our theme music is by Marcus Bagala. Shannon Ryan is Managing editor of Women Women's Basketball at the Athletic. Be sure to like and subscribe. We drop new episodes every Tuesday, Thursday and Friday.

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