← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
Will the WNBA and Players’ Union Reach an Agreement In Time?
00:59:54
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- [00:00]
Zena Keda
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- [02:14]
Zena Keda
What up everyone and welcome to no off season presented by ebay. I'm Zena Kada.
- [02:19]
Sabrina Merchant
I'm Sabrina Merchant.
- [02:21]
Ben Pickman
And I'm Ben Pickman.
- [02:22]
Zena Keda
And today on the show the CBA negotiations in the W are at a critical moment. The deadline for a deal is is this Friday, October 31st, but there is still no deal in sight. Big questions are are we heading towards an extension or a work stoppage? We're going to dig deeper on all of these things and where they stand, what the players really want and why the league is pushing back and to do this, we're going to be joined by Aaron Drake, one of the lawyers hammering out this deal on the player side. But first, let's circle back to the W's coaching news. Ben, you brought up on Friday that Jose Fernandez is headed to the Dallas Wings and I got questions. Okay. First and foremost on the college side. Yes, Jose Fernandez was a coach at the University of South Florida. In the press release around this, Kurt Miller, the GM of the Dallas Wings, announces that Jose Fernandez is a proven winner, but a lot of us have not heard his name. We have not seen the record of that. And I'm a little confused on this hire. Sabrina, before we get into Ben's thoughts on this, he wrote on this and it's live on the Athletic. Now, what are you thinking around this Jose Fernandez getting to coach a generational talent like Paige Beckers, And a lot of us haven't heard of him.
- [03:39]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. So, you know, on the surface, this is not altogether that different from the Sparks hiring Lynn Roberts last year or the Atlanta Dream hiring Carl Sommesco. You know, both coaches coming out of college programs that aren't what you would consider like the top upper level crust of college programs, but very successful in their roles.
- [03:55]
Aaron Drake
Right.
- [03:55]
Sabrina Merchant
You know, you look at South Florida and they had seven NCAA tournament appearances over nine years, you know, in the 2000 and tens when I think they were at their peak, when they were playing in the Same conference as UConn incidentally, though Paige was not there yet. So I think that's what Kurt Miller is referring to when he calls Jose a proven winner. Admittedly, he comes with like less of a, I think stylistic, you know, sort of catch like Lynn Roberts did with the threes and Carl Simesco did, you know, with his style of play at Florida, Gulf coast with the threes as well.
- [04:25]
Zena Keda
Right.
- [04:25]
Sabrina Merchant
I think honestly Lynn and Carl are basically just like east and west versions of the same. Same. Yeah, I think there's no gimmick in the same sense with Jose Fernandez that would make him instantly recognizable the way those two were. But Kurt Miller, you think about his background, he was a head coach at Bowling Green for a while, head coach at Indiana for a little bit. So he understands the mid major, high major route coming into the wnba. Although he served as an assistant for one season before becoming a full on WNBA head coach. So I think there's some empathy for the transition that Jose Fernandez is about to undertake coming from this level of college basketball into the wnba. And we talked about this last week with all of the hires that we've discussed so far, you want alignment between the head coach and the general manager. Right. Like, you want them to be philosophically on the same page as to how they want to play, what kind of players they want to target. Just, you know, so everybody's running in the same direction. Right. And this is obviously an incredibly important hire because the Dallas Wings have Paige Beckers. Right. And I think the number one thing that sort of stood out to me is when South Florida was in the same conference as UConn during the 2000 and tens, when they played in the, I want to say, the American Athletic Conference. Gino or was very complimentary of Jose Fernandez. And he is. Fernandez is generally pretty well respected among his college peers. Right. Against among his coaching peers. And when you get a sign of approval from Ginorama, that not only bodes well for you just in general, but it also really bodes well when you were up to the task of coaching Paige Beckers, who is one of Geno's favorites. You know, you can debate who his actual favorite is. I'm sure a lot of UConn players have said that Paige is his favorite. But to have, you know, that blessing, I think goes a long way in terms of the job that he is about to take here with Dallas Wings.
- [06:05]
Zena Keda
No, it's one thing for your coach and your GM to be aligned, but you got to also make sure that this coach is aligned with the talent that they're about to coach. And, Ben, that's when I turn to you to kind of look at what types of things can we expect out of Jose Fernandez to bring into Dallas to set up Paige Beckers for success? Why do we think that Kurt Miller and Dallas chose Jose overall?
- [06:29]
Ben Pickman
I mean, I think it goes back to some of what Sabrina was saying about knowing how to build and run a program successfully over time. Right. Jose Fernandez had been at USF for 25 years, becoming the winningest coach in that program's history. He is a leader among his peers as well. He's been on the executive committee of the wbca, the Women's Basketball Coaches association, in college for a number of years. And going back to that respect factor that Sabrina was talking about in terms of Gino Orema respecting Jose Fernandez, not only his basketball acumen, but him as a kind of mouthpiece for other coaches in the sport. An advocate on issues, an advocate on mentorships and trainings and teaching. I mean, he is also a coach who has some USA Basketball experience at the assistant coach level as well. So all of that I think makes him well positioned. Another factor from USF and Jose Fernandez. Yeah, they might not have gone on like these major, major runs throughout the NCAA tournament, but for a while now, before a lot of his peers, USF was also tapping into the international market. Kit Laksa is one of those players that is mentioned among his draft picks now. Kit Laksa with the Phoenix Mercury now kind of starting her WNBA career a little bit later. But she played at USF under Jose Fernandez as just one example of an international player who he got to come over to the bowl. So that is another part of him, his ethos, how he was recruiting that I think they're hoping to tap into. The Dallas Wings are as they look to look to the future here.
- [07:54]
Zena Keda
And how would you guys assess this pick for Dallas?
- [07:59]
Sabrina Merchant
Bennett reported that they were targeting coaches with head coaching experience, right. Which ended up being a head coach with college coaching experience. In my opinion. If you have a player like Paige Beckers, I think you got to get the WNBA coaching experience right away because there is a bit of a, an adjustment period for college coaches coming into the W. We saw it in the regular season with Lynn Roberts, we saw it in the postseason with Carlos Imesco. And neither of them, all credit to the players on the Atlanta and Los Angeles rosters had anything like Paige Becker is just from a stardom standpoint on their rosters. So I thought this was a job that was going to go to obviously Sandy Brandello at Sampa Toronto. She had been rumored to be considering the Dallas job as well. It is interesting to take a chance on someone who is unproven at the professional level with like a generational player on your team. So that, that's just interesting to me. And it's not like he's ginormous, right? Like it's not like he's like the most decorated college coach of the last generation, admittedly a good mid major coach, but like not of the same echelon. I would say as like you know, some of the other names I would.
- [08:56]
Ben Pickman
Say, and I said this last week when we talked about the news very briefly that he was also a finalist for the Dallas Wings head coach opening last year. So you know, to use a word like unsurprising would be another word that they go after him yet again like they wanted him or they heavily considered him last year before he went back to usf. So it's not like this name came out of nowhere in terms of just like Jose Fernandez, you know, his reputation changed overnight from Last year to this year, and they suddenly decided to make the move. I think the other thing to watch for, and this is something that we saw when Nate Tibbets was hired in Phoenix, is how does he immediately go out and build a staff? Right. I think that's becomes really the next most important thing that, that you can think about because, you know, Nate Tibbetts goes out and immediately hires Christie Tolliver, among other coaches. Now he also has coaches who have college and NBA and NBA G League experience. On the Phoenix Mercury staff, you look at the Atlanta Dream, Carl Smesko, you know, he built his staff. Brandy Poole, a longtime WNBA assistant coach. Latoya Sanders, a former WNBA player turned assistant coach, and then another one of his assistants from fgcu, Lynn Roberts, seemingly, you know, had a newer, more inexperienced WNBA staff. And by mid season, they basically brought Latricia Trammell in as kind of as Sabrina was saying, WNBA eyes and ears experience to help out that system. So who he surrounds himself with will be really important. And if you're Carmilla, you're saying, well, I trust this person to then create a culture, create an environment and hire the best people and the right people to help make everything gel the way we want going forward.
- [10:31]
Zena Keda
Okay, I guess I'm gonna have to take your word for it when it comes to Jose Fernandez. I hear you in terms of the, you know, philosophical alignment. I hear you guys in terms of the familiarity he has within the coaching atmosphere. Ben, I heard you say the word of mentorship and the things that he advocates for on the coaching side. And I'm thinking this could have been an opportunity here to advocate for the likes of a Christie Toliver, the likes of a Brion January, the likes of these player coaches that are sitting there branding, Poole, even that have been assistant coaches for a while and have proven themselves at the W level and just, you know, an opportunity to step up into that role. This continues, this conversation around the players turning into coaches. But we'll see what happens because there is still one opportunity left. Jonathan Kolb. I'm looking at you. I want to see some growth here when we're talking about who's coming into these roles. But Jonathan Kolb lost someone that he could have directly hired into his organization, and that is Sonia Ramond. She was announced as the next head coach of the Seattle Storm following her stint as an assistant coach with the New York Liberty and previously with the Memphis Grizzlies in the NBA. I saw John Morant post about this. Clearly very happy for his Former coach Ben, given your familiarity with the Liberty organization and with Sonya, what kind of impact do you think she can have stepping into this Storm head coaching role? That let's be real, we don't know exactly what's going to happen with this roster, but it's an opportunity here for, for her to finally be in that head coaching role.
- [12:06]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean this is another hire that I would say didn't really come out of left field and that Sonia Ramon has been part of head coaching WNBA head coaching interviews and cycles for the two off seasons before this one. Interviewing quite well according to people that I had talked to involved in the process. And so here in Seattle, I mean she is someone who has a lot of respect around the wnba despite having only been in the league for just one season in New York. She played a role in their offensive development and also in special situations like late game situations or after timeout sets. But she did more than that. I mean it was clear even in one season the kinds of relationships that she built with players. Izzy Harrison was, you know, New York Liberty Ford was another player who almost right away came out in support and congratulating Sonia Ramon publicly. On Twitter we saw players, as you mentioned, John Morant from the Memphis Grizzlies, other Memphis Grizzlies players from her time there who really spoke to her impact on them, how she poured into them. I mean one of the things that's so interesting about this hire, it's such an unusual atypical path for a WMD head coach or just a frankly a head coach in General. Right. From 2008 to 2020 she was the head coach at MIT. Not exactly a basketball powerhouse. Xena, maybe you played them or looked at getting playing there back in the day. I don't know what your all right. I mean I remember that.
- [13:26]
Zena Keda
Yeah, not a house by any means, not a powerhouse.
- [13:30]
Ben Pickman
So you know, she's there for, for more than a decade and she parlays that job into, you know, an NBA assistant coach job which she then turns into a job with the Seattle Storm. Two other factors I think to, to consider here. Number one, you know, Sonia's wife is a former WNBA player herself and actually in the coaching space and is from just outside of Seattle. So I have to imagine that there's some familiarity with kind of being home or being in that area that they both like kind of going forward in the next stage of their life. Also, two years ago during the 2024 WNBA season, Sonya, while still with Memphis, did spend some time watching Storm practices just Kind of observing best practices around that organization. And so I have to imagine too that that familiarity with Talisa Ria that the general manager probably made a difference in the interview and eventually hiring process as well.
- [14:19]
Zena Keda
Now, Sabrina, looking at the fact that this was a one year stint in the W and now going into a head coaching role from that one year stint, what are some of the things that she brought to New York that people are really excited for her to potentially bring to Seattle? And then also this whole situation that's developing with Dominique Malanga. Of course we know free agency is coming, you know, once the CBA is put into place. But we know with free agency, all of these veterans are question marks. One of the one things that were supposed to be a little bit like, okay, you know, you're going to have this going into next season is Dominique Malanga, but even with her contract situation, maybe you can break down what's going on there. And then also how does that impact what Sonya Ramon can bring to a team that has so much question marks around their roster?
- [15:07]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. So we'll start with Sonya's background. I realize Ben laid out how it might be a little unconventional. In some ways it's a very conventional path to getting a WNBA head coaching job. Many WNBA coaches now come from NBA assistant roles, whether that's directly from the assistant role into a head coaching job like Becky Hammond or Nate Tibbetts or they're an assistant in the NBA and then become an assistant in the W like Natalie Nakase or Tyler Marsh and now Sonia Roman, all becoming head coaches eventually. So in a sense it's a very conventional path. Right. Like this is the type of experience that front offices are trying to get when they hire head coaches. They want a broad scope of experiences. Right. And she's been at the college level, admittedly D3 and the NBA and now the WNBA. Right. And the Liberty season probably didn't go as well as any of them had hoped for, you know, after that 9 and O start to the season. But you saw, I think Sony was credited for a lot of the five out offense that they implemented with New York, which, you know, looked good when the players were healthy. I don't know that exactly the kind of offense you want to run in Seattle if you're building around Dominique Malanga. But that's where I think her NBA experience kind of serves her well. Because you look at Dominique Malanga's archetype and I realize we don't love to make the menwoman comparisons, but I see a lot of Jaren Jackson Jr. In her just like the versatility with what she can do with the ball in her hands, her defensive versatility, especially how good she is protecting the rim, but also defending her on the perimeter. Soni spent a lot of time with Jaren Jackson in Memphis, and he experienced a lot of growth during that tenure when she was on the Grizzlies, becoming an All Star in the process. So I think just that experience of working with a really versatile big In Jaren Jackson Jr. Sort of informs how she can work with Dominique Malanga going forward. As far as the Fenner situation with Dominique Malanga, admittedly I'm not terribly versed in what's been going on there, but she did have a contract with Fenerbahce, the Turkish powerhouse in euroleague. The contract was terminated and the way overseas contract work is like the team has to sign a waiver for you to play during their off season. So WNBA teams sign a waiver for Malanga to play during WNBA offseason, and then Fenner would sign a waiver for Dominique to play during the Euro offseason. I see no indication as to why they wouldn't sign that waiver even with the termination of this contract. It seems like a lot of hard feelings at this point, like someone didn't tell someone exactly when they were signing the paperwork, and I think it's getting a little overblown. I would be incredibly surprised if Dominique Palonga were ineligible to suit up for the 2026 WNBA season. So I think it's pretty safe to assume that she will be the centerpiece of the team that Sonia Rahman is coaching in Seattle. And like Ben laid out her familiarity with the organization from last year and her wife's familiarity with the area and just the people in Seattle basketball, I think, make this a pretty natural fit. We had heard her name in this search for a long time, and again, based on the types of hires that have been made, it seems fairly consistent with the way front offices are approaching these searches.
- [17:49]
Zena Keda
It makes sense. And on the Dominique Malanga front, the main point of contention from Fenerbahce is that her contract, Dominique Malanga's contract was terminated without cause. Apparently there was not communication around why she was terminating and that's caused a little bit of contention, but we'll see how that situation plays out. Of course it will impact the situation in Seattle, but the biggest thing is Seattle now has a coach regardless of whoever ends up on the roster there. Now again, we're talking about free agency, we're talking about cba. We gotta get into what needs to happen in order for free agency even start and coaches to actually be able to talk to folks and GMs and be able to talk to potential players. And in order to do that, we're going to be talking to Aaron Drake, who is the senior advisor and legal counsel for the wnbpa. But before we dive into that conversation, which I'm so happy we're having, we need to actually just level set. Let's set the table again for those who are, you know, kind of diving into this conversation. Maybe you don't know anything about what's going on with the cba. That's okay. That's why we're here for you. We want to break it down for you in terms of where this has gone, where it started from, how has it gotten to this point. So let's dive right in. Ben, I'll start with you. Why did the players opt out a year ago from the CBA that was supposed to go until 2027?
- [19:08]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, so the fact that the players opted out was not really a big surprise when they did it last October, just a few days after the 2024 season ended. Because when you think about it, big picture, the players were faced with the opportunity to drastically impact their own economic experiences, their paychecks, their bottom lines, right? By getting paid more and more quickly by just opting out of the deal. So we've obviously seen this explosive growth in the wnba, especially over the past couple seasons. And so instead of having, you know, the current deal run, I want to say, until what 2027 is, when the deal would have otherwise ran through, like they had the ability to have it run through this season and then renegotiate a new one. And so they did just that. And when they announced their decision to opt out last year right away, Neko Gumike said it was a defining moment, not just for the wnba, but for all of us who believe in progress. That was her world. And again, she talked about that evolution since 2020 and not wanting to fall behind. And we have very much seen that idea about evolution thread throughout their discussions, thread throughout their public comments in the years since about what they want. And they are seeking not just to maintain status quo in a number of ways, but to revise the systems or a number of systems in the agreement. And specifically, we should be talking about the revenue sharing and salary structure frameworks of the wnba. Those are two systems or one system, really, that the players are looking to change and revise and see evolution in going forward now.
- [20:41]
Zena Keda
Sabrina, you've written about some of the comments that have come out in that negotiation of not staying with the status quo and wanting to move within the line of progress. And it's been pretty contentious. It's been pretty, you know, there's been a lot of tension there between these two organizations. What are some of the key issues that there's a lot of pushback on and how have these talks developed?
- [21:02]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, I think the number one issue really is just revenue share, as Ben said. Sue Bird talked about on her podcast. She was on the executive committee when they negotiated the last CBA in 2020. And she said essentially the way we worked that CBA was that we could only have to worry about salary when it came into 2025. We negotiated that CBA so that we could opt out early and then focus on salary the next time around because they got maternity protections, they got extra rooms for veterans on the road, they got travel accommodations which have since been upgraded to full time charters in the wnba, which I assume is something that's going to be codified in the new cba. We haven't heard a lot about that, but just because it's sort of an assumption since it's happened over the last two seasons. But yeah, all of the other details, like facilities, we're starting to see the entire WNBA come around to an acceptable level of practice standards for the WNBA players and everything else is rising to the level of where they would hope, except for the salary piece and the salary derives from revenue share. Because as we talked about in this podcast before, the WNBA salary cap is not tied directly to the revenue that the league brings in. It is a number that is set and fixed in the cba. So there was a base number that was set in 2020 and it rose 3% every season over the life of this current collective bargaining agreement. You can see the revenue of the WNBA has risen by a little bit more than 3% each season over the life of this current collective bargaining agreement. And that is something that the WNBA players are hoping to partake in. They want to benefit directly from the revenue that the league is generating. And what the WNBA is offering currently is a revenue share structure that models pretty similar to what the league has right now, which is there is a base target that has to be hit and then once that revenue is exceeded, the players can share in the overage of that revenue. And what the players want, though they haven't put out a direct proposal, is just basically they want the full pie, not a piece of the pie, is what they're saying. Right. They want to share in the whole pie. And that is really the main point of contention of is that target and then share in the overage model going to benefit the players enough compared to just getting a split of the revenue, similar to what the NBA gets, for example, where they have a collective basketball revenue income, and then everybody gets 50, 50, the owners get 50, and the players get 50. I can't imagine, even if the players win these negotiations, they'll get to 50, 50. That's probably not what we're talking about. But to get a piece of, again, the whole pie, as opposed to the overage pie is, I think, where the two sides are differing at this point.
- [23:25]
Zena Keda
Right. I like pie analogy. And we can keep rolling with it. I mean, the way I look at it, when we're talking about this difference in salary structure from the last CBA to this CBA and what the players are wanting, this is like kind of having like a potluck at Thanksgiving, which is coming up. And it's basically like the WNBA is telling the players, hey, if we have a certain amount of pies show up, like, that's what people bring to the table, and we meet our quota of pies that we need for the dessert table, whatever extra is left over on the counter in the kitchen, you can get that. All right? Even if we come up with a million more pies that go into the kitchen, that go into the living room, that go into all the other rooms in the room, it's just gotta be at least until we get that table filled. And the WNBA players are saying no, regardless of however many we bring, we want to be able to have a piece of the desserts that are available to everyone. And that depends on if that number of pies goes up or down. We want that reflected in our salary. And this seems to be the biggest point of contention. It's a. It's the reason why, I mean, the words slap in the face have been used by players to describe the proposal that the WNBA has offered. So what should we know, Ben, about who's offering this proposal? Who feels slapped in the face? Who feels like this is a fair offer? Who's in the room with this conversation?
- [24:46]
Ben Pickman
I mean, we should say that both sides have been trading barbs back and forth at each other for a number of months now that the, you know, the league is basically saying that the WNBA's proposals have often been incomplete or, you know, taken out of context or not told the full story. And players have gone back and said, like, you know, the league is you know, we, we've seen what players have said. I mean, players have called out Kathy Engelberg directly, calling her the worst leadership in the world. Like that's what Nafisa Collier, an executive committee member, said of Kathy Engelbert. And we have seen them for months call out the league and how they're kind of treating players or what they think about players. We saw it at All Star, right. When the players wore pay us what you owe us T shirts. It's kind of a physical demonstration, a physical example of how they feel in a unified effort at that All Star Game. So the two sides, when you talk about the tensions heating up, Xeno like, yeah, I mean, that's why we are where we are. And the two sides seem so far apart because they have seemingly not made a ton of progress on the core issue. And I like that you used the, you talked about bringing a million pies to the Thanksgiving table because I like to use the phrase a million because that is another big number here in question. What does the salary then look like going forward? Right. I mean, we reported that in a recent WNBA proposal, they proposed a max salary of around $850,000. Now, that could just be a starting point. And in any negotiation, you know that you're going to try and give space to then, then eventually move up and maybe that salary would settle in the seven figure vein. But there is not just a question over what that number is or what that eventual max salary number in these salary numbers will be, but how you actually get to that number. Right. The kind of calculation that is underlying the eventual output that players receive. That is exactly what Sabrina is talking about. And that very much seems to be still the hang up. There are other issues that have been discussed, as Sabrina mentioned. I mean, codifying charters and other workplace conditions, we know is something else that has been discussed. Potentially expanding rosters going forward, improving family planning benefits. That is another thing. Health insurance. Those are all topics that are on the table here. But again, I think we have seen players say repeatedly that despite any purported progress on any of those other matters that I just listed off, players have said they can't foresee themselves agreeing to a new deal that doesn't increase player compensation and include a new revenue sharing system. Both of those things working in confluence with each other, not just one or the other.
- [27:23]
Zena Keda
Yeah, because to continue this pie analogy, the players, like, say, you wouldn't be having a potluck if it wasn't for us. They're bringing the pies for us. So we should be able to be a part of distributing the desserts now. So if the players reach Friday and they're like, absolutely not, which looks like it will be happening, what does a work stoppage mean in this circumstance? Sabrina?
- [27:49]
Sabrina Merchant
Yes, there's a couple things that could happen Friday. If no deal is agreed to, the two parties could agree to an extension, which just means they keep working towards a deal and nothing really changes. They're just establish a new deadline. They could just.
- [28:01]
Zena Keda
Which is what happened.
- [28:02]
Sabrina Merchant
Which is what happened in 2020 and previous iterations of the CBA as well. Multiple extensions have been agreed to or the CBA has taken longer than the proposed deadline. So what also could happen is they don't have an extension, but they just keep working towards a new cba. With a lapsed CBA in place, it's not terribly important over the next two months that there is a functional CBA in place, because games are not happening. So it's like they could just have no document and just try to find a new one before the new season starts. An extension really is a sign of good faith more than anything. And both parties have sort of accused the other of not negotiating in good faith. But that doesn't mean that we can't get to an extension. It is possible, if there is no deal agreed upon by October 31, that the league chooses to lock out the players. And that would be a signal of a work stoppage. And that means that players can no longer access facilities or interact with the organizations and the league. And that puts, admittedly, a lot more pressure on the actual negotiations because there is some. Something tangible being lost. But I can't imagine that the league would lock out the players this early in the process unless there is a real tension that exists between the two parties, like even more than we've already witnessed between the two parties. So those are a couple things that could happen. And again, like, we still have a long way to go before May, when the games actually start, before any of the season actually gets in Jeopardy in 2026.
- [29:22]
Zena Keda
Okay.
- [29:23]
Aaron Drake
Oof.
- [29:23]
Zena Keda
This is some drama. I'm very curious as to how all this is gonna play out. I'm so excited for the conversation you guys are gonna have with Erin Drake. She is one of the people in this conversation. Of course, there's players that are represented by the N. Wnbpa. There are lawyers that are represented on that side, and then they're going up against the wnba. Kathy Engelbert, the commissioner of the league, is in those conversations. Owners are part of those conversations through that. But you guys are going to break all that down with Aaron in just a few minutes, so don't go anywhere. Guys, this is about to be a great interview for breaking down the cba. Tell me if I'm alone here. No offseason and listeners. But shopping used to feel more fun before all the algorithm fed blah and the endless sea of dupes. But I have a confession. I found that fun feeling again on ebay. Because on ebay it's not just shopping, it's a full on fashion pursuit. And when you find the thing that adrenaline hit is real. Like when you score that rare Adidas collab that's lived on your mood board. Or the Dior saddleback you ripped out of a magazine in 2007 and never got over. Or something like The Cecily Bancet GT2160s that sold out in five seconds. Yeah, those. It's about the thrill of finding pieces that feel like me. And I want you to find pieces that feel like you. There's always more to discover. Ebay has millions of pre loved finds from hundreds of brands backed by ebay. Authenticity guarantee eBay things people love.
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Aaron Drake
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- [32:08]
Ben Pickman
As we mentioned earlier, this is a pretty important week in the WNBA calendar. There might not be any games being played, but the current collective bargaining agreement, the document that sets a foundation for the league and its players, expire this Friday. So in the vein of continuing to dive into all things cba, we are joined by Aaron Drake, senior Advisor and legal counsel for the wnbpa. Aaron, welcome to no off season. Thank you so much for being here. First question, important one. How much sleep are you getting these days?
- [32:40]
Aaron Drake
Listen, I'm doing the best I can, Ben. Thank you all so much for having me on today. My sleep is not as high as it should be, I'll say that. So I'm not quite getting my eight hours, but. But I'm finding a way. I'm finding a way.
- [32:57]
Sabrina Merchant
Good Halloween costume. Ready for Friday? The most important thing happening on Friday.
- [33:01]
Aaron Drake
Yeah. Yeah. My partner's birthday is on Wednesday, so just a lot of life stuff. And as you said, Halloween is, you know, a very important holiday in my family. And so I've been going back and forth. I think I forgot my vampire fangs at home while I traveled up, but. But I'm gonna figure it out. I'm gonna figure it out.
- [33:22]
Ben Pickman
Very nice. I guess before we get into any of the spooky stu set with our audience, can you just kind of describe your role at the PA and what you do and. Yeah. How you kind of fit into the players association ecosystem?
- [33:36]
Aaron Drake
Yeah, sure. Happy to. So my title says what it says, but it doesn't kind of capture, I think, all of the work that I do. My job is to be within the union to address any of the legal questions or issues that come up for our players or for the union at times. That's as kind of tried and true kind of labor union stuff as something like workers compensation. And that's true across industries. If you get hurt at work, hopefully you have a union representative who can walk you through how to navigate that process. But I work specifically for this union, and because of the people who work in this union, there are certain issues that might be more specific because of sports, because of the fact that our entire body that we represent, that they're women. Right. So what do laws kind of look like for them with all their lived experiences and identities in Dallas versus Brooklyn, in the Bay Area versus Indianapolis, in Chicago versus Connecticut? My job is really to keep an ear to the ground on a lot of the legal changes that are happening in the country. I often say that as we're negotiating this collective bargaining agreement, there are also a lot of things that we have to negotiate with the world because it's women's sports, because of. Because they're moms. Right. Because they're queer people, all of these things. And so I really try to pay attention, Special attention to those matters. And obviously, we're negotiating a CVA right now. So I do A lot of that, too.
- [35:12]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, I mean, on that point, I guess, what do your days look like now, you know, with this deadline barreling towards us?
- [35:18]
Aaron Drake
A lot of thinking and reflecting about kind of how we got here and a lot of of preparation for where we go next. I mean, I know that you all have done a great job covering what happens on October 31st, and the answer is not necessarily much. Right. We're still going to be at the table. We're still going to be negotiating until we get this agreement done. We just don't know how long that's going to take, unfortunately. So right now, that's what our days are looking like. It's looking like a lot of conversation with players, a lot of conversation with the other members on staff of this union, and some creative thinking for how to get this done because the players are so stalwart in their commitment to having a transformational cba. And it is our job to get it done. My job is actually so easy right now because of how committed they are to this. I also have a number of contacts that we're working with outside of the unions. Whether it's another union, whether it's folks who are trying to support the players in one way or another, I have to do a lot of the organizational work to make sure that everyone has what they need. And also, again, keep the main thing, the main thing, and ensure that we're barreling towards a resolution for this agreement.
- [36:35]
Ben Pickman
You mentioned it, just as you were just now explaining kind of your day to day and what you're up to right now. And we set up some of the key issues about salaries and revenue sharing and some of the other considerations that you might be talking about. But how in your mind did we get here? Like, how did we get to the point where we are at right now, where we're just a couple days removed from a deadline where tensions remain high, where it seems like distance remains far apart from both sides, where some of the key issues that were key issues a year ago at this time still remain key issues today.
- [37:10]
Aaron Drake
It depends how far back we want to start. That's. That's honestly my instinct, I think, and part of that's me being a little cheeky, and part of it's not right. I think we, the players voted to opt out, and we, you know, we noticed the league about that opt out on October 21st of last year of 2024. So for a year, we've known that this was a deadline, and for us, it's always been a very real deadline. And we have worked hard to be able to say on Friday, we did it it right. Unfortunately, that's not going to happen in a dance. It takes two to tango. And it has been difficult to find the beat, to find the rhythm and to find the same sense of urgency, just to be frank, to get this done. Now, how did we get here on some of the issues? I think you have to look at the beginning of this league. I think you have to go all the way back to the late 90s to see that. That there has been a certain way that things have been done in women's sports. There has been a certain way that things have been done in women's basketball. And the context has changed and the moment has changed and the movement has grown. Now we are trying to negotiate a CBA that matches that. It feels quite misfitted to try to shoehorn or pigeonhole some of the old ways into what I think we can all acknowledge is a new era that's only going to get newer with these expansion teams, with the growth of the league and frankly, with the numbers that we're seeing now, when we talk about league revenue and when we talk about team valuations, I guess just to build.
- [38:54]
Sabrina Merchant
Off of that, you mentioned that you feel like you've put. The union is in a position to say, on October 31st, we did it. We've made a deal. What is the sense that you're getting from the other side? Like, why isn't there that same sense of urgency?
- [39:06]
Aaron Drake
Do you feel that is a question that we have as well. That's a question that we have as well. We've said it. We've had players in the room saying it. The 31st was a road deadline. The 31st was a very real deadline. Now that we are not going to hit it. And of course, It's Monday the 27th. There are a couple days between now and then. You know, I pray. I believe in miracles. I'm not hopeful that this one is going to come to fruition. I'm not a betting person, but I wouldn't put money on it. We'll put it that way. I don't know. I don't know and we don't know. But I do think that change is difficult and change is very challenging, particularly when it might be happening in a way that you didn't predict or in a way that you can't control. And that might be what the league is feeling. I'm not trying to kind of PA splain where the league is at, but I can imagine that and we all know power does not yield to much other than power. And sometimes that can be a very uncomfortable feeling to have and one that you're in denial about for a long time before you see the light.
- [40:17]
Sabrina Merchant
So, I mean, you know, given that setup, obviously not trying to attribute any, like, motivations to the league side, but just from a tactical perspective in terms of what needs to get on the paper. What is the biggest hurdle you think you guys have to overcome before getting to a deal?
- [40:31]
Aaron Drake
I know we've constantly. And y' all have covered, you know, and Sabrina, I think you wrote an article that kind of laid out all of the things about the system. We are not really necessarily speaking the same language. And it goes back to what I was saying earlier. We are trying to look to the future. What is going on. These agreements in the past, the agreement that's about to expire, has been in place since 2020. Right. When you look at the state of the league in 2020 and now, the growth is, frankly, for some, unbelievable. For others, the natural outcome of certain moves. When you look at 2014 to 2020, it's also huge. People don't really talk about those jumps because it just feels so the past right now. But the same thing is true for. For 2008 to 2014. All of these CBAs capture so much time. And I think we have the benefit in this one of at least being able to see a bit more into the future. Because of what the league has announced, because of these expansion teams, because of these broadcast deals, because of, frankly, the talent that we see in the pipeline from the ncaa, we have a bit more of the pieces because the context and the infrastructure for this game has grown so much. So I think that answers your question. But it all has to fit together and be made for this moment. And we're just disagreeing, I think, having fundamental disagreements about what that looks like. And to put more of a fine point on it, I think we are trying to do something that is not unfamiliar in professional sports, in mature economic models, but is certainly new to this league, to the wnba. And I think that they are trying to do something a lot more familiar to what we have now.
- [42:31]
Sabrina Merchant
So just to build off of that. Right. You say money. We've written about this. What exactly the PA is looking for regards to revenue share and what we believe the league is proposing. Can you just walk us through why revenue sharing is the right model for the WNBA going forward?
- [42:47]
Aaron Drake
Yeah, I mean, we heard earlier this week or late last week, whenever it happened, Adam Silver say that Share is not the right word. Share is the right word. That's exactly the word. And it's not sharing because it's caring or isn't, and it's not sharing because it's a nice thing to do. But it's sharing because it has been earned. And without the players, there is truly no product. They are the product. I am not discounting, and I. I very much understand that the league and teams and the owners have a huge role to play to build up the sports kind of ecosystem for the product to reach the public. But we can't confuse what we're doing, what the project is. And the project is entertainment. And the players, the performers who go out day in and day out, who the fans love, who are putting their names and images and families out there, they are the ones. But for their existence, this wouldn't be here. And if that's the case, we need to be talking about sharing. And we haven't had that conversation at all in the history of this league. And certainly it's a new conversation in the ecosystem of women's sports, which I think I'm going to keep saying, because this is not a question about is this system viable? Does the system work? We know that it works. In fact, it is the industry standards for so many other leagues, just not this one.
- [44:26]
Ben Pickman
I do want to say, just as a point of record, that the league, via spokesperson, they have said consistently that they do stand ready to continue negotiating in good faith, that is the phrase they have used, and hope that the players will continue to do the same so that you guys can finalize a mutually beneficial new CBA as quickly as possible. And they, as you've mentioned, have acknowledged big salary increases and, you know, say that the players association has yet to offer, this is their words, a viable economic proposal, among other things that they have said in recent days and weeks, weeks, as this negotiation progresses. You mentioned, Aaron, though, talking about the model and the state of the model. You know, what have you learned from other sports leagues, other models, whether they're in women's sports, whether they're in the NBA, you know, are there lessons, are there pieces of information? Are there, you know, negotiation strategies? People you've picked the brains of that the players have looked to as resources throughout this process.
- [45:32]
Aaron Drake
Absolutely. Absolutely. This cannot happen in a vacuum. And I think I've said that a couple of times, we can't do this alone. I don't think any. This type of change necessitates community. This type of change necessitates a collective mindset. This type of change necessitates help, right? It just is. It's. Thankfully, it aligns with my theory of change, and I hope it aligns with a lot of others. But there are countless examples throughout history of people fighting for something new and being met with the kind of word gobbledygook that you just read out in that statement that just says, we don't wanna do that.
- [46:15]
Zena Keda
Right?
- [46:15]
Aaron Drake
Like we don't wanna do that. That's what I heard in that statement. Right.
- [46:20]
Ben Pickman
That's because I read it in a gobbler way, to be fair as well.
- [46:25]
Aaron Drake
If that's what you want to say. But of course, we have, as you know, our team of advisors, but more to the point, I mean, we've talked to people at a variety of unions. We're part of the AFL CIO, the 59th affiliate, I believe. And so we're in constant communication, not only with other sports unions, but also with other unions. Right. Whether that's Actors Equity, we see what they're doing on Broadway, having authorized a strike and then not having to actually call it because they were able to bring people back to the table. Same thing with the musicians who are also on Broadway. And part and parcel, of course, we aren't too far away from hot labor summer, right? Which saw a number of people standing up and saying, pay us what you owe us. Basically. That's why that phrase is so accessible, because it is so applicable to so many different fights last year around this time, when we're talking to the players about their options and what to do before this time. But about opt out, we're also talking to sag, right, like joining one of their picket lines. Better understanding, particularly for the folks who are in performance work, how to use not only the public, but how to really draw in the employers to understand that there is much more to lose if you don't engage than there is to lose if you do. And part of that, I think, is a benefit for the type of work that our players engage in in the public sphere. You know, the celebrity of it all, et cetera, et cetera. But I can think of examples of lessons to be learned from as far back as the 1860s, right with the Washerwoman of Mississippi. That was the first kind of labor union in Mississippi, and it happened right after the Civil War. I think we can at times forget, and I don't think our educational systems have done us a great service to understand the ways in which change has happened, particularly for groups of people who have often been excluded from the more traditional laws and guardrails to establish fairness between an employer and an employee. And so more kind of recently, whether it's the National Women's Law center, whether it's the folks here in New York who are the executive product leadership for the state AFL CIO here in the state, there are so many lessons to be learned. And thankfully, we aren't the only ones. In a contract negotiation. There are kind of many siblings who are fighting for very similar things. And it's really just to have their value reflected in the ways in which they can earn a living and for the benefits and all the other things that we're interested in, too.
- [49:21]
Ben Pickman
You mentioned some of those other groups, and I know we wrote about that a little bit on Friday, the letter that more than 70 legislators, local legislators from around the country, sent to Commissioner Kathy Engelbert and NBA Commissioner Adam Silver. At this point, though, you know, just a few days out, how engaged are players specifically are? Do you see more engagement from players? Are you fielding more questions? Are you holding more formal or informal player calls than you were, you know, two months ago, five months ago @ the start of the season? Just what can you say about the player engagement at this point in time?
- [50:01]
Aaron Drake
It's high. It's high. It's interesting because I think if you're just a person thinking about the off season, you know that players are playing in other places. You know, the players have families. You know, the players, as most human beings do, just want to have a break, just want to have a break, just want to be on the beach, relaxing, having a drink. Right. Having a good time with their family. And that is all within their right. They're also so engaged. And that's why I said earlier that my job is very easy. There's not a sense that we are pulling teeth in any sense of the phrase, are we having a lot of meetings? Yes. Have we been having meetings? Yes. Have the questions changed by necessity also? Yes. Right. We aren't having the same conversations that we had in February of this year, in October of last year around All Star. Those conversations internally have progressed, especially as we barrel down to this Friday deadline. Now, now, I've said and y' all have written about and on like I listened to an episode that you all had a couple weeks ago. I think you all have done a pretty good job of talking about, as I said earlier, what can or can't happen after the 31st. But I think the closer that we get, naturally, the more questions arise about the same questions that the public are asking. What is A strike? What is a lockout? How do work stoppages work? What is status quo? What are the pros and cons of an extension? And I think it's. And I don't mean to kind of get a little bit zoomed out about this, but these are very important words that mean very specific things. And part of these conversations are also trying to ground the conversations that we're having. In some of the history that I was talking about going on strike, being locked out, having a work stoppage can be a very painful thing to do, in part because of how you got there at the level, I think, of dignitary harms that must come before you are able to stand up and say, I will forego something, or we know that it is a risk if the league does this. That's a really big deal. And I don't think a lot of people who haven't been on strike or haven't had to ask themselves, what am I willing to do? Can quite grasp. I think you see it when you look at a lot of different kinds of workers across the country. We've seen what happens. We see what's happening with Starbucks, right as people are trying to unionize. There's a big risk. I think the risks are very specific to industry. But to get to that point, explaining all of the options has to be caged in a very serious conversation about how serious all of these moves are. And those are the kinds of conversations that we're having in conjunction with how we're trying to get this ball moving and get that rhythm that will, in the end, get us across that finish line and hopefully avoid the more painful parts of a labor negotiation. Because right now, we want to get back to a space of labor peace. Labor peace is where we want to be, but we're not going to get there by being taken advantage of. The players aren't going to get there by hearing maybe next time. Again, the time is now, and we are willing to do what needs to be done to get there and move back into the zone where we can really put on an amazing product and have people feel that their value is being reflected in the way that they are paid and the money that they're getting.
- [53:49]
Sabrina Merchant
Just based on that tenor, does it seem like it's reasonable that. That both parties, the PA and the league, would agree to an extension at this point?
- [53:57]
Aaron Drake
It is the 27th. I think the agreement is still in place right now, and as I said, we're having constant conversations with players, but that is. That is a strategic decision. For everyone to consider. Of course, an extension is always on the table, as are a number of other options. No extension, but no additional action or different actions. But again, there are just so many moving parts and to get through this week, I think that's how serious we are. We want to. It would be amazing to have an agreement by Halloween. What a treat for the holiday, right? That. That would be sweet. And then we could all enjoy our candy and we'll be in labor peace. Yay. Kind of short of that, we're going to, like, the tone is going to change kind of even more about what happens next. But we haven't made that decision yet. The players haven't made that decision yet.
- [54:53]
Ben Pickman
What would be the benefits of an extension? Just for the layperson who has heard this idea of there was an extension in 2020. Deals have been agreed upon in New Year's in 2014 and 2008. Like, for the layperson who doesn't really understand the meaning of that term, what were the benefits or drawbacks of that scenario?
- [55:12]
Aaron Drake
Be sure. And so, again, we're talking, if an agreement is about to expire, the parties can agree to extend the current agreement for a period of time. That time can be months, that time can be weeks. That time could be days. I think from kind of a legal perspective, if I'm talking to a layperson, the biggest benefit is certainty. You know, know what the next kind of period under that extension is going to look like? It's going to look like disagreement. And keep in mind, the players opted out. Right. So this agreement, if the players had not opted out and the league had not opted out, would have been in place until 2027. Right. So it's just kind of gets us back into the world in which we've cemented this agreement for a little bit longer. And you can have that certainty as you are negotiating, but things are basically the same. The drawbacks of that is that you have cemented this reality while you're negotiating and that things remain the same. And again, it's a strategic consideration. What happens next, I guess, in your.
- [56:21]
Sabrina Merchant
Role, talking with the players, going through all of these potential outcomes, how do you prepare the players for the potential of a work stoppage? What goes into that?
- [56:32]
Aaron Drake
Lots of conversations, you know, Lots of conversations. And again, communication is the name of the game. I mean, I feel like y' all are journalists. You know that I'm an attorney. Not enough of us know that, but I know that, okay. It is the bread and butter of progress, I think, is to be able to communicate effectively and to hear concerns, to hear vulnerability, to hear anger, to hear emotion, and to hold it all as you make a strategic next decision. And so that's how we're doing it.
- [57:09]
Sabrina Merchant
You sort of mentioned earlier about how severe. I guess I don't want to put words in your mouth, but a work stoppage would be. So just what goes into getting the players up to speed of what that would entail and how do you prepare for potentially not being able to play games at some point?
- [57:25]
Aaron Drake
Point, yeah. And again, this goes to why my job is easier. Players are incredibly smart and incredibly good business people. And they understand business. They. They understand business. And so to explain from a much kind of like an earlier point, because keep in mind, this date has been in the CBA since 2020, so it hasn't been a secret. Right. So I think for some people in this space, they've been thinking about this since the day after that agreement was inked. Right. So it's not as if a lot of this stuff is really news or hard to explain, but I think it's just constantly explaining the gravity of not just these decisions, but any right not to kind of like, oh, this is so important to freeze people, but to really just appreciate that what we're fighting for is a big change. It's a big shift in a power dynamic that frankly, has seen the players get the short end of the stick for almost three decades. That was never going to be easy. Here is the process for how we get this done. We are not even close to certain parts of the process. We are still very much in the part of the process in which this agreement is not expired. But as this continues, here is what it could look like. But as a union, it is our job to advocate on behalf of our players. It's also on behalf of the members who hired us. And it is also our job to advise them and to listen, as I said. So the preparation is. It's a lot of flow. It's a lot of kind of give and take and it's a lot of updates about what's happening in the room, I guess.
- [59:11]
Ben Pickman
Before we get you out of here, I will say another part of a league statement as well and see if you want to respond at all to it. Them saying last week that the league, quote, comprehensive proposals to the players that include a revenue sharing component that would result in players compensation increasing as league revenue increases without any cap on the upside. You know, they've used words like, it is frustrating and counterproductive for the union to be making misrepresentations about our proposals, while also accusing the league of engaging in delay, I guess. Is there anything that you want to say about that or any of the specifics of the proposals before we get you out of here and send you back to more meetings and negotiations throughout the week?
- [59:51]
Aaron Drake
Aaron, thank you for releasing me soon. First of all, there's not so much I want to say. I will say that what they wrote in that could be said about, could have been said about the current model that we have in the cba. This, this uncapped. That one's not capped either, technically. Right. And so I think we have to be very careful not to fall for what is technically true when it's also not the sports industry standard, when it's also something that is told to a group of women who are trying to attain that industry standard standard, and also when it's not what the players have proposed. And so that's my response to that. It's, it's technically could be accurate, just like it is technically accurate for the current cba. And yet that fell woefully short of the moment, and it is falling short each and every day that the revenue grows at the league and the players see not that much of it. The same is true for what they put forward now. And if they want to call that a mischaracterization, that's their prerogative. But at the end of the day, the kind of change that we're talking about is not change that we need marketing for. It's not change that we need good PR for. It's change that is the proof is in the pudding. And we are working hard to help them appreciate that, that we have to get past that before we can get this agreement done.
- [61:34]
Ben Pickman
Well, we appreciate you, Erin, for making a little bit of time amid all the other work that you are doing, and that is being done right now in conference rooms and at the negotiating table on creating a new collective bargaining agreement. And we look forward to continuing to hear updates and seeing how it progresses. And we hope that you have a happy Halloween most of all, and that you can enjoy whatever costumes lie in your wait.
- [62:00]
Aaron Drake
I kind of want to be a Sadja boy. That's like the new one I'm kind of rocking with because I'm obsessed right now. But I appreciate that, Ben, and thank you so much, Ben and Sabrina, for having me on and for the questions. And I also wish y' all a very, very, very happy Halloween.
- [62:17]
Zena Keda
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Aaron Drake
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- [64:23]
Zena Keda
Ben, Sabrina, thank you for that conversation with Aaron. And Aaron, thank you for joining us. I don't know if we'll have her back. I mean, I imagine if the extension goes through we'll see what she has to say. She might be really, really busy at work after October 31st, but appreciate you guys for that breakdown that is got for you today. If you guys have more questions around the CBA or college hoops or you want more pie analogies like let us know, send them to our mailbag, drop us a line on our socials and on our email. No offseasonathletic.com and check out the show notes. For more info and wherever you're listening, please follow our show. If you're watching on YouTube, please subscribe. Tell your friends, tell your family, tell all the people that would be at your potluck to check us out. And while you're at it, give us a rating. Drop a comment we want to hear from you and our partners at the Yahoo Sports Hub also want to see you. There's more content over there for you@sports.yahoo.com womens sports on behalf of the Athletic Erin Drake, Sabrina Merchant, Ben Pickman, I'm Zena Keda thanking you for listening and we'll see you next time. No Off Season is hosted by Zena Keda with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producers are Andrea B. Scott and Cassius Fleming. Our theme music is by Marcus Bagala. Monica Compton is our video editor. Shannon Ryan is Managing Editor of Women's Basketball at the Athletic. Jesse Burton is our Head of audio and Tim McMaster is director of Audio Operations.
- [66:05]
Aaron Drake
Hey, it's Maya and Sim from the Girls that Invest podcast. If you are an IT or security pro, you know managing devices, identities and applications can feel overwhelming and honestly risky. That's where Trelica by1Password comes in. It helps conquer SaaS sprawl and shadow.
- [66:22]
Zena Keda
It by discovering every app your team uses.
- [66:25]
Aaron Drake
Managing managed or not. With pre built app profiles, you can.
- [66:29]
Zena Keda
Assess, risk, manage, access and even optimize your software spend.
- [66:34]
Aaron Drake
Plus, it simplifies onboarding, offboarding and compliance, all while cutting costs by eliminating unused licenses.
- [66:42]
Zena Keda
Take the first step to better security for your team.
- [66:45]
Aaron Drake
Learn more at 1Password.com specialoffer.
- [66:51]
Sabrina Merchant
Group health insurance can challenge company budgets, but now a new form of employer coverage called.
- [66:56]
Aaron Drake
An Ichra can help help.
- [66:57]
Sabrina Merchant
Unlike group insurance, ichras offer predictable costs.
- [67:00]
Ben Pickman
And stable employer contributions. Learn more@ambetterhealth.com ICRA if your dog could.
- [67:07]
Zena Keda
Talk, they'd beg for Ollie. The full body tail wag, the excited little hops, the big goofy grin. That's the Ollie effect. Ollie delivers clean, fresh nutrition in five drool worthy flavors, even for the pickiest eaters. Made in US Kitchens with high quality human grade ingredients, Ollie's food contains no fillers, no preservatives, just real food.
- [67:27]
Sabrina Merchant
Just fill out Ollie's 30 second quiz.
- [67:29]
Zena Keda
And they'll create a customized meal plan based on your pup's weight, activity level and other health info. Dogs deserve the best and that means fresh, healthy food. Head to ollie.com healthypup Tell them about your dog and use code HEALTHYPUP to get 60% off your welcome kit when you subscribe today. Plus, they offer a happiness guarantee on the first box, so if you're not completely satisfied, you'll get your money back. Pack that's o l l I e.com healthypup and enter code Healthy Pup to get 60% off your first box.