← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
WNBA All-Star: StudBudz, “Pay Us What You Owe Us” + More
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- [00:00]
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- [02:17]
Ben Pickman
Hello everyone and welcome to no Off Season. I'm Ben Pickman and today on the show, my co host are all on vacation of some sort. Either that or shall we say out with All Star weekend recovery? I don't know, we'll have to see what the official athletic injury report comes out and says. So our colleague James Boyd is back with me in the studio to talk all things All Star weekend, what it was like on the ground in Indy, the biggest winners and losers of the weekend. And no, I'm not just talking about Team Clark and Team Collier, though we will get into that. And what else you need to know about the CBA negotiations and the shirts that the players were wearing before the big showcase game. So, James, hello. What's up? How's everything going with you? Sad to see you back in this little box on my computer screen. But just how are you doing after this very long and tiring weekend?
- [03:03]
James Boyd
I'm doing good. I feel like I was in good hands with you and Sabrina and others from the athletic staff. But overall, obviously a busy weekend, a long weekend, but it was fun. I enjoyed it. I think that basketball biasly is different in Indiana and I'm glad others got a chance to experience that. So it was a good time to me. I am tired, I'm not going to lie to you. Colts camp coming up this week. But still, still enough time to get in some WNBA talks.
- [03:28]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, we were very happy to be in Indy with you, showing you around. You showed us a good time. We hope to show you a good time in the WNBA world as well, James.
- [03:36]
James Boyd
Absolutely. I mean, there were a couple of times where I had to, like, do a double take of who I was walking by. One of them being Lisa Leslie. One of those nights. And I was thinking to myself, like, yeah, this might not ever happen again in my life, so you might as well enjoy it and embrace it. But I think overall it was still a fairly good, not even fairly good, very good celebration of women's basketball and, and really just the women's basketball explosion that we've seen in recent years. Given the fact that Caitlin Clark was sidelined, I still thought there was good energy throughout the players, throughout the crowd, the fans and the entire atmosphere. A lot of fun.
- [04:06]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, let's hit on some of that. Because for me, like, I was a little curious heading into the weekend with Caitlin Clark not playing. What was the energy going to be like? And I think almost right away I realized, like, this weekend still has a ton of juice to it. There was tons of signage, whether that was literally in the Indianapolis airport, airport or around all the streets, they all had these street signs that were, you know, named to the 13 franchise names. Everywhere you went, in windows of bars and restaurants, you saw, you know, WNBA related signage, messages, everything. Just kind of paying, you know, excitement to the weekend. So I wanted to say for you, like, just what were some of the highlights the behind the scenes, some of the things that, like, you'll just remember most for in this weekend.
- [04:57]
James Boyd
Yeah. So I would think that the stud buds have to be number one on this list because of just their hilarity and just their prevalence. I feel like they showed the WNBA in a way that we've never seen before. Kind of like an all access pass to some of the biggest stars and people and really seeing them unbuttoned, because we've seen in recent years with the rise of, you know, athlete podcasts and shows and different mediums like that, that when they do show themselves, it's very curated, it's very, you know, thought out. Kind of like our podcast today, we don't go into it blind. Right. You have a script, you have things you want to kind of get to. Whereas with the stud buds, Courtney Williams and Atisha Heidman, they went out there and had a great time and showed us a really fun side of the WNBA that I don't think we saw before. And one of the highlights had to be seeing them dancing with Cassie Engelbert on the, on the live stream. I mean, you don't see that very often where a commissioner of a league is dancing with the players amid CBA negotiation, nonetheless, to knock a few bucks. So that was one of the highlights for sure. And then as far as on court performances, I thought Sab delivered, you know, Sabrina Nescu for the Liberty, you know, shot that thing, as my pops would say, because she can really shoot the ball. I mean, that was incredible. I think I looked over at you when she got on that roll there and you were counting off on your fingers how many threes she had made in a row. And then you ran out of fingers and had to start over. And I was like, dang, like this girl's ripping the net right now. So I certainly enjoyed that. And I think those are probably the two things that stood out to me the most as far as off the court and on the court. I can go on, but yeah, Ben, I guess I'll play back on you, man. Like, what did you think kind of stood out to you?
- [06:35]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, that is a great point. Definitely watching Sabrini and esku make those 11 threes in a row. And you are totally right. We were sitting next to each other while she was in the middle of her three point shootout. And I did. I was like a kid in elementary school learning account, just taking off 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. And I did have to reset because she made 11 threes in a row. She didn't make 20 in a row, like she did in the three point shootout that she won a couple years back in Las Vegas. But 11 was pretty electric. She even said she was disappointed because she felt like she missed a couple threes on the table just by getting tired at the end. No, it's true. Like she admitted to like hearing the crowd at the end a little bit because she missed her final three three pointers. And so you gotta think like, if she didn't maybe hear the crowd and you know, embrace the scene a little more, what would she have done? It's pretty remarkable just how good of a three point shooter she is. But speaking of the Stud Buds, I want to get back to them for a second because I think what they did over the weekend was one of the things that will linger not just in the WNBA context, but I do think some other leagues will apply because they really did provide a unedited look, 72 hour live stream of what All Star Weekend was like. So we should say they've been doing this stream throughout the regular season, sporadically throughout the regular season. It kind of started this year. They call themselves the stud Buds. They had walked around during All Star Weekend with pink hair. It was hard to miss them anywhere they went. And from the start of the weekend until the very end, they were just streaming, live streaming on Twitch. You can actually go onto Twitch right now and see portions of their live stream. And they really did take people totally behind the scenes. And it ranged from the very start when there was this big union meeting on Thursday afternoon. And Courtney Williams, shortly after getting out of the meeting, is talking to Natisha Heideman on the stream about like her instant reactions and thoughts to the meeting you had. What you mentioned it was Friday night. This is actually a party that we were at. We saw the dancing in real time of Kathy Engelbert dancing to Nuck if youf Buck. Like it was tons of people were taking out their phones filming that, but they were live streaming it, you know, fully. You had Neca Gumike on Saturday morning. It was all the days are really blending together right now, I should say. The union held a kind of players breakfast, as is often the case on Saturday morning. And Neca came into Hyde Min and Corney Williams room and was like, the breakfast is starting in 10 minutes. Like, you got to get ready, come get down there. And they streamed, you know, a party Saturday night. And there was something that was like, so, I mean, just authentic and unedited about it. So often in these production meetings of leagues and for big events you know, people on staffs talk about, like, ideas to bring fans behind the curtains for hours. Like, for hours and hours about, like, how can we provide these unedited, authentic views? And they did that. And I do think, like, I am a little afraid is the wrong word, but I am curious to see. I have to imagine wnba. The WNBA will try and bring them back in future years, but now that the cat is kind of out of the bag and we saw how popular they can be, will, you know, will corporate creativity, so to speak, clamped down on what was so real and authentic? And we should say, like, Twitch is a predominantly male platform. You know, I want to say 63% of the users of that platform are males in the 18 to 64 demographic. And here you have, like, two queer women really broadcasting the whole weekend and showing people everything they want to see. So there's a lot there. I don't know what is your reaction to them or, like, the Internet culture part of it and what you think might happen going forward?
- [10:36]
James Boyd
Yeah, I think 1. The coolest part about it is that the tandem wasn't an all star tandem. Like, Natisha isn't an all star, but she was, like, one of the all stars of the weekend when it comes to attention and gravity. So I love that inclusivity, you know, to a certain extent, because it gives a chance to shed the light on. Okay, if you're unfamiliar with, you know, WNBA or you're only tuning into the stream because Caitlin Clark might show up, you're gonna get introduced to these other cast of characters who, by the way, are hilarious and very talented themselves. So that, to me, was a big part of it was. It was kind of showing love to the other, you know, players who are out here throughout All Star weekend. But on top of that, Ben, I think you make a good point, you know, when it comes to just, you know, one, can you sustain that level of excitement? Because whenever something is new like that, there's always gonna be that curiosity of, like, I don't know what to expect, so I can't miss anything. But also, you know, who's willing to sort of embrace that as well? Like, is it just a stubbz thing, or is other people gonna be a little more willing to be, you know, open or revealing or whatever the case may be? Because there are certain moments where, you know, you probably do want to be a little more private and do you avoid the stubbuds at that point? But I thought overall, for just that, that first sort of iteration of this, it was a lot of fun, Ben. I enjoyed it. I thought that obviously the fans, you know, enjoyed it. And I think the W did a fairly good job kind of on the fly of embracing it. I know that there's probably going to be some discussions going forward, like you said, about, you know, one, the corporate cleanliness of it, because it wasn't always like, you know, pg, but also when it comes.
- [12:13]
Ben Pickman
Definitely was not.
- [12:13]
James Boyd
Yeah, yeah. But also when it comes to just again, licensing stuff like these, you know, endorsement companies or these media rights companies pay huge, huge amounts of money to make sure that they get these certain spots. And so if you're kind of getting that ripped off by a stream, is that okay? You know, is that something you're going to be willing to do? And I honestly think, like, is the future just that you endorse streams? Like, you know, do you partner with a twitch? I don't know if you want to call it a twitch athlete, which is a different term most of the time, but yeah, like, do you partner with an athlete on Twitch or some other streaming platform to, you know, broadcast or get your advertisement money in that way? So I'm very curious to see how that goes. But I think that this was a nice first step.
- [12:52]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean, a few thoughts off that. Number one, I think one of the big questions that we had as we were just making our way throughout the weekend and, you know, talking to Sabrina about our producer Andy, who was also with us, like, do you want to be on the Twitch stream or are you running from the twitch stream?
- [13:05]
James Boyd
And Alyssa Thomas is running.
- [13:08]
Ben Pickman
Alyssa Thomas wasn't. I was running from it. Like, I was really hoping all weekend, like, not to be on stud buds in any background shots in any. Anything. Like, I wanted to talk to who I wanted to talk to, do the work I needed to work, enjoy myself the way I wanted to do so and like, not have it be broadcast to the world and have like a viral moment. And I do think a lot of people were like me and then some other people I'm sure, like, really wanted their moment to, like, get in the background or dance or have a good time or, you know, just make the stream. And to each their own. There's no judgments here. I will say too the NBA on their, like, you know, on their side for their all star weekend, they definitely are embracing creators a little bit more. They do something called the creators cup, which I think is like this, like, streamers influencers pickup game that they actually play, like during all star weekend. And I think they did it at summer league and so we've started to see the NBA embrace kind of influencer Internet culture, streamer culture a little bit more. And basically, like the sub buts are streamers for all intents and purposes. We just saw Kai Sanat, who is this famous Twitch streamer. He's probably the most famous streamer on Twitch was just part of, like, Time. You just had a Time magazine cover story. Like, there is a lot of. There are a lot of people out there embracing streamers. And I think what was so cool was, again, as I said, like, this is a predominant. A platform primarily viewed by young men who just sit around and basically watch people just hang out and live their lives. And so here are two queer women who are just embracing the Weeknd and broadcasting it to a whole new audience. So, um, you know, I think super, super cool. What else for you? I don't know. Indy, we talked about as a big winner. We mentioned Sabrini Andescu as a big winner. Let's talk about some of the losers. Where can All Star weekend improve?
- [14:54]
James Boyd
What.
- [14:54]
Ben Pickman
What kind of left you wanting more from the weekend?
- [14:57]
James Boyd
I think you know where I'm going with this, and it's the skills challenge, which was not based off skills. I am annoyed by this. I was annoyed when CP3 and Wimby tried to do this on the men's side where they just tried to, like, basically rig the event. And it's. It's, in theory, you're not graded off of whether you make this shot or make the pass. It's basically, do you get the shots off? Do you get the passes off? And so one of my biggest issues was that I believe in the final round of the skills challenge, Erica Wheeler completed all the skills where Natasha Cloud did not. But Natasha Cloud completed the actual drills or got to the finish line quicker. I made the layup quicker, so she wins this money. And in years past, maybe I wouldn't have been so, like, you know, gung ho about this. I want to, you know, you know, stand up on this soapbox and scream about this. But considering the amount of money on the line, that to me, kind of makes it more foul. Like, wait a second, you know, Erica Wheeler completed each task, Natasha Cloud didn't, but she gets the money. Like, that cannot be fair. So I think that's a quick fix for the wnba. We talked about it earlier, actually, on the radio here at Indy. Thanks for coming on, Ben. But also to me, just add a time, you know, limit to it or add a time penalty to it. I'm not saying that you have to like stay at each station until you complete it. Because that would kind of become embarrassing if you like are ice cold from three point line or you just, you know, crowds on you.
- [16:21]
Ben Pickman
But then, but, but complete the challenge. But, but then I get that.
- [16:24]
James Boyd
But, but for like, but in my mind I'm thinking if you're trying to stay like on schedule for like TV purposes, that's what I was thinking is like, part of me is like, you know, the competitor in me is like, just make the shot. You're one of the best players in the world and you can do it. But if you're trying to just stay like on the right, like, scheduling track, then just add a time penalty. If you don't complete any of the things, like if you don't, you know, do the bounce passes, then you add two seconds. If you don't complete the three point shot, you add three seconds, whatever the case may be. But it cannot be to the point where you just have to look like you're attempting something in good faith and then you're fine. Because going back and looking at it, you know, I believe Erica Wheeler might have made her last three point attempt something like that, but she shot a real jump shot, whereas Natasha Cloud just chucking and like, all right, it doesn't matter, I'll just leave. Which I don't blame her for that. I'm not mad at her, I'm just mad at the rules. Like, you can't be giving away $55,000 and we have like basically a time challenge, not a skill challenge.
- [17:17]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, that's a super fair point. I think for me Friday night I really enjoyed it. I thought, you know, all the events were really successful, but I came away just wanting more. And I know I am not alone in that because I think all told, the broadcast for the skills in three point challenge was just around 70 minutes. And it felt like there's enough star power in the weekend, there's enough fan interest now in these events that there should be at least a third leg to the Friday night Shooting Star Weekend Challenge. Yeah, and you know, this is a drum that I have banged and Sabrina as well on this podcast and on other platforms. And I think we will continue to use our platform, however small and mighty it might be, to preach to and push to the league to bring back the Shooting Stars Challenge, a three person shootout that, you know, used to happen in NBA All Star Weekend. It would involve an NBA player, an NBA legend, any WNBA player, and I think it would be really fun to bring it to WNBA All Star weekend and have a WNBA player, a WNBA all star and sorry, WNBA all star, a WNBA legend and an NBA player all take part in this shooting spots challenge where you got to make, you know, mid range jumpers, three pointers and then a half court shot, which is something w players do all the time. I mean again, who wouldn't want to see in this case Kelsey Kelsey, Mitchell, Tamika Catchings and. Well, I would have said Tyrese Halberton, but he's hurt. I would have said Miles Turner, but he's now with the Milwaukee Bucks. So maybe Benedict Matherin as your Indiana Painters or TJ McConnell. He was there. TJ McConnell if he was in town, like, who wouldn't want to see that three person team go up against, you know, another three person team. I think that would be really, really exciting. And the good thing is Kathy Engelbert did actually acknowledge that this is a conversation that she and the league office have started to have. They're going to look at Friday night and potentially see what ideas emerge and what they're going to do going forward. The other thing that I think is kind of a loser is frankly the All Star Game itself, like fair.
- [19:20]
James Boyd
Very fair. Yes.
- [19:22]
Ben Pickman
You know, I just think there's so much excitement in the weekend that for me, the thing that I will remember the least is the actual game. And that is because of the intensity of the game. And I'm not faulting any players for playing as hard or not hard that they did. There's a lot that they had to do in terms of parties, events, brand activations, CBA talks. Just a lot is on their plate in a really condensed schedule. And it's why nobody wants to get hurt and it's why the product is what it is. It's just layups and threes. And I also think it's kind of a, it's kind of a sign of how big the WNBA is that like the All Star Game nobody really tries right now in a non Olympic year. That's kind of a sign that you've made it because look at all these other major leagues we have in American sports and everyone just complains about their All Star Games.
- [20:10]
James Boyd
Absolutely. I think that was probably the biggest reaction in the comments of my quick game story about the All Star Game was people complaining about the level of competition. And I was like, look man, when you're in the middle of a season and you mentioned all the other things going on that weekend in particular, but when you're in the middle of a season, that is the Longest in WNBA history at 44 games. I don't necessarily blame the players for taking that time to kind of, you know, bs. And also, to be completely honest, as soon as we saw the four point line, we knew it was going to be some mess because nobody's going to shoot any regular three pointer or go to the basket. Like, the first shot of the game was Asia Wilson chucking a four pointer and bricking it. And then Paige Beckers, who to her credit, made hers chucking one on the other end. So that was. That's at the tone right there of how serious the game will be taken and where I will, I. Where I will give the WNBA credit is. And it happens, you know, not on a regular basis, but every four years when they have the WNBA All Stars versus the Olympic All Stars, it's obviously more competitive than because you have a bunch of women who feel like they got snubbed from the Olympic team and they want to, you know, play better for the crowd or upset them. I mean, last year we saw the WNBA All Stars defeat Team usa. However, I mean, even then, you can't ask for that every single year. But selfishly, as a basketball fan, yeah, the game was kind of a snooze fest. But I will say there were some funny moments throughout it which still kind of made me walk away feeling like, okay, like I'm okay with that. And then part of me too is like, like the way I grade All Star Games, Ben, is like, if a 7 year old had the time of their life, then screw it. Maybe you did it the right way. Because I'm pretty sure a lot of the fans there who are younger still loved it regardless. They loved the long threes and the funny moments, like I said, where like, Kelsey Plum is fouling Asia Wilson but won't let her go. Or at the end of the game when Stewie gets the rebound off of Kiki's miss and then she just throws it to Keke, who was on the other team, by the way, and she just chucks another four pointer and makes it like, those moments were hilarious. Ryan Howard getting a shot up even though she wasn't in the game. I'm like, what is going on? So, you know, I'm not going to gripe on it too much, but I would agree that the game itself was probably the lowest point of, you know, one of the lowest points of the weekend, I think.
- [22:23]
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- [23:24]
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- [23:40]
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- [23:42]
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- [24:24]
James Boyd
Foreign.
- [24:28]
Ben Pickman
Let'S kind of transition a little bit, James, because there was a lot that was actually happening that was substantive and meaningful and that will have a real lasting impact from the weekend in Indy. And it was related to the ongoing labor talks between the union and the league, the CBA conversations that, you know, started last winter and are very much continuing throughout the summer, throughout this season. So on Thursday, more than 40 players, which was a record number according to the PA, met with leadership from the WNBA in a hotel room or in a hotel, I should say, in Indianapolis to negotiate, you know, to work on the negotiation for their next cva. The two sides opted out, I guess, or the players opted out last October and they have been negotiating since for this next collective bargaining agreement that sets the stage and both sides, I think hopes will transform the league overall. I guess. Big picture for you. Before I kind of dive into it, like, what are your impressions? What did you kind of think about the. The CBA presence, The CBA talks? Maybe it's the T shirts. Maybe it's. I don't know, anything else that kind of caught your ear or eye as it relates to the cba?
- [25:37]
James Boyd
Yeah. So Saturday night, I believe, is when you and Sabrina kind of flip flop seats. And so for just context for those listening, we get a certain amount of seats, but they're in different spots around the arena. So Sabrina was, I believe, courtside or down on the floor for, you know, the first night, and then you flip flopped with her. So she was up with me for the second night in a higher level. But all that to say when I got like, just a view of just how many players are wearing the shirts, because I don't know if you could see it that well, like, courtside, just the bird's eye view of it. I'm like, man, like, there's no missing this. There. There is no angle of this arena where you're going to miss this message. Like, there is nothing that can sort of hide it. They even had, you know, different fans holding up signs that were passed out and things like that. So I thought that it was a very smart move because you're going to have a ton of eyes on you. And particularly I thought it was very powerful for the most popular star in your sport to wear the shirt. And Caitlin Clark and having that still image, you know, being screenshot and going everywhere. And suddenly she's in that conversation too. Even more so.
- [26:39]
Ben Pickman
And we should say that those shirts say, pay us what you owe us. That was the tagline on those shirts that the players wore pre game and then post game. There were signs that were passed around that said pay the players. We even saw Brittney Sykes of the Washington Mystics stand in the shot behind Kathy Engelbert and Nafeesa Collier with that. With that sign, that messaging. And the fans broke out into a pay them chant. Another moment from the weekend.
- [27:06]
James Boyd
That to me just adds to the conversation, Ben. So that was one of my biggest takeaways, was like, dang, like suddenly I'm sitting next to Sabrina, like, wait a second. I have like this little quick game story, but I should probably mention this in some capacity in it. Like, I can't ignore this. I know you had a bigger piece on it yourself, but I felt like all of us had to kind of, you know, pull our weight a little bit and maybe just, you know, keep our eyes and ears peeled to what was going on. Because that was my biggest takeaway was like, okay, bump the game. The game itself might be boring, we might not care. I won't even remember that Nafisi Collier had the, you know, all time scoring record or that Skyler Diggins had a triple double two years from now. But I will remember those shirts and what it means especially going into these labor negotiations and potentially a lockout, you know, later this year. So we'll see where it goes. But certainly something to keep an eye on. Ben.
- [27:52]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean I agree with you that that was kind of one of the, you know, defining signs, moments, memories of the weekend. And I want to say a little bit more on that in a second, but I want to go back to Thursday for a second because for me like Thursday afternoon I flew into Indy kind of midday in the morning or mid morning, settled in for a second and basically like spent the afternoon trying to get a read on how the union meeting was going. I was one of a small group of reporters, Sabrina was there as well, who caught wind of what time and where the meeting was happening. And we actually kind of waited in the hotel where the meeting was occurring to try and talk to players, league representatives, really anyone that wanted to speak with us, that we had relationships with and just see what we could hear, like experience, learn about the instant read off. And it was interesting because players kind of started to trickle out after the meeting, you know, lasted a couple of hours and eventually like we saw some players starting to leave. No players in the moment on Thursday afternoon, directly after the meeting wanted to talk. The first kind of comments made by players actually came at the orange carpet, which was kind of interesting because you know, you don't necessarily always associate the orange carpet where everyone's got their nicest fits on and kind of break out and welcome the weekend as this place where like intense, you know, I guess organizing is going to happen. But we did speak with Terry Jackson, the executive director of the pa, and she kind of immediately highlighted this idea that there was so much player participation. And it ranged from Caitlin Clark, Angel Reese, Paige Becker's, the kind of young generation of stars to all the, you know, almost all the biggest names in the league. The Nafisa Colliers, Neko Gumake, obviously the president, Kelsey Plum, Brianna Stewart, they're on the executive committee. Satu, Sabley and All Star basically flew into town for the weekend because she was not participating in the game. Asia Wilson was one of the few players not at the meeting. She said her flight got on a little bit late, which is why she was not there. And the meeting itself, you know, seem to be have some spirited conversations. That was a phrase that Terry Jackson used at times because, you know, this issue of salaries and revenue sharing is really important. And it is seems to be at the center of the talks right now because, and we've talked about this on this show previously, that the league sent back a counter proposal after months and months of waiting or of players waiting that proposed this small, in the words of necromancy, fixed revenue sharing system. And what we should say to that is, you know, the WNBA is in this incredible period of growth. You see attendance records, you see merchandise records, you see viewership records. Kathy Engelberg highlighted all of those in her opening comments. And yet, you know, the players want in on this growth. You know, they will also cite that there are these expansion teams, the three expansion teams that just came in for $250 million each. That's up from 50 million for the Valkyries just a few years ago. The players want in and they're saying, look, this is a growing business. This is an exploding business. We should grow alongside it. And that is why they are so frustrated with this fixed revenue proposal, revenue sharing proposal that they receive back from the league. And so this was really the first opportunity that the players and the league had since December. The first meeting that actually involved players showing up in person. It was why this conversation was so important. There is another meeting that is scheduled for Terry Jackson. It's unclear when exactly that is. And it's unclear, frankly, like if players are gonna be there or how many or if it's going to be an in person meeting. Because now you've suddenly gone back to normal WNBA schedules. Like, that is, I think, why so many players were frustrated. Brianna Stewart said it was a wasted opportunity. She highlighted the fluff of the meeting. Some players were, you know, inspired by the kind of organizational unity that like the PA showed and just seeing so many other players getting involved. But like, it's unclear how much progress was actually made kind of tangibly on these talks.
- [32:08]
James Boyd
Absolutely. And I think that is their right to sort of ask for more money. And the biggest thing for just for the discourse outside of those rooms. And I think publicly, and I know, Ben, you have studied this stuff, you have researched this stuff. You have talked to many people. This is me just kind of, you know, jumping in. But why do people care so much about money that isn't theirs. I'm like, okay, they wanted more money. Why the heck are you upset about that? Like, everyone becomes a financial analyst and this, you know, big WNBA sort of, you know, expert all of a sudden, when it comes to them asking for more money, I would not care if the company I work for, and I'm very thankful to work for the Athletic and the New York Times, but why do I care if they're losing money? That does not affect. Like, that doesn't affect my life. Like, I want more money because I'm going out there and putting the product out there. And as you've seen, the product itself is selling. And I think that's the biggest argument that the players, you know, have. And so that, to me, is always the sort of a sticking point, Ben, and a point that irritates me because I'm like, why do we care what very rich people have to do to pay their employees? Pay them, right?
- [33:13]
Ben Pickman
I mean, there's a lot. There's a lot there, and there's a lot to this conversation. And I will hit, you know, this is stuff we've talked about in the past, and we will continue to do so. But a few points that I guess I will make as a response to that, James. Number one, like, the WNBA is really interesting from its ownership structure standpoint, right? And we have said this on the pod before, that, you know, the NBA is owned by the NBA, and you have the NBA and its players, and they have a 50, 50 revenue split. The WNBA is owned by 42% of it is owned by NBA owners. Another 42% is owned by WNBA owners. And there are some people in that pool that double dip in both categories. And then there are 16% that, you know, is owned by investors from a recent capital raise. And there are people again in all three groups. So it's kind of tricky in how revenue right off the bat gets split up. The pie gets split up there then. And I would highly recommend people read our story on, you know, the Caitlin Clark effect. We wrote this story, Sabrina and I, a couple weeks back on no. If Caitlin Clark's worth a billion dollars to the W, why she only paid a fraction of it? I think it gets into a lot of the points. And this is a point that, you know, the following is what Sabrina has made on this show before, but basically already in the WNBA, the league's owners don't even control 50% of the league, as we're saying. So a 5050 split of total revenue would only leave 21% of the pie each to both the owners and the players. Beyond that, in this current cba, there is a current mechanism for revenue sharing, but it is only revenue sharing if certain targets are reached. And that agreement was signed in 2020 prior to the pandemic in the lead up, you know, as time as fate would have it, to the pandemic. And so it was made prior to the league's bubble season. And it basically has cumulative revenue targets. And there are these cumulative revenue targets in the current CBA that the WNBA has not caught up to despite all the recent growth. And so that prevents players from benefiting from the financial gains of the league. So again, because of COVID the league and the players are basically playing catch up. And so they're not able to benefit from a revenue sharing model as much as they might otherwise in a different revenue sharing system. And so that is why kind of paying it forward without any numbers. Players don't want this fixed system because they want to grow with the business. That is kind of the thing that they will say. And so that is one of the big sticking points right now is what does revenue sharing look like? You know, revenue sharing feeds into salaries. You mentioned the kind of vagueness of the WNBA and profitability, frankly, like, we don't know how profitable or not profitable or what revenue the WNBA brings. And we don't know that for a lot of leagues and a lot of sports teams don't make money, don't, you know, generate profit during a given season because of just what the expenses of a team do. And yet clearly the business is going well because think about all the records and think about all the people, again, that are trying to get into the wnba. The, you know, the Cleveland Cavaliers expansion group, the Detroit group, the Philly group. Those are billionaire owners. They're not just trying to invest in the WNBA anymore because they're getting told you must do it or because they think it is a charity. Like, they view this as an opportunity to get incredible return on investment. And we have seen WNBA team valuations increase rapidly, you know, in recent years. The Liberty, you know, were sold in the five to tens millions, you know, five to seven years ago now. They recently sold a minority stake at $450 million. Like that is just one example. They could be, you know, $1 billion franchise. Think about the Valkyries already. From a business standpoint, 50 million was the expansion fee. Sportico thinks that they're the most valuable franchise in the league, like around 500 million. Like, these are good businesses. These are good long Term investments. And so, you know, the question of what the WNBA was or was not in the past is kind of irrelevant to this current moment. And the last thing I would say, too, on that front, and then we can kind of go back to some of the other takeaways from the weekend, is this quote, and we reference it in the story. There's this famous quote from a former Toronto Blue Jays executive, and I mentioned this a few weeks ago, too, that he says, under generally accepted accounting principles, I can turn a $4 million profit into a $2 million loss and get every national accounting firm to agree with me. And that is basically saying that you can spin numbers any which way you want. So people out there on the Internet just be careful about taking, you know, WNBA lost numbers at face value because there are stories that each side wants to tell. And in a time of collective bargaining, like, you know, if the owners were like, yeah, the business is exploding. We're making this amount of money. Guess what? They would lose leverage in these conversations. And so they don't want to do that. Hence the stickiness of the current situation.
- [38:29]
James Boyd
We'll see where it goes. Because, I mean, you hear from Naficia Collier and others, they sound like they mean business. And so I think you'll be pretty busy once the season ends, Ben. I'm sorry to tell you that, but I think you won't have a short off season, or at least a very light off season, to say the least.
- [38:46]
Ben Pickman
No, that's definitely right. I don't think it will be an off season, though. We are used to no off seasons, pun intended. On this podcast and the women's basketball world on the shirts front, too, I wanted to say, because you made the point at the very beginning, like, the players have this annual meeting. Every off All Star. It's this breakfast that they do. I usually, I think it's the day of the All Star game, and that is where they met. And that was really where they, you know, finalized the plans for what ended up happening on Saturday night when they wore the T shirts and they had the signs and everything was ready. But to me, it wasn't just that they wore the shirts, because we've actually seen WNBA players and All Stars use All Star Weekend as a moment for activism. In 2022, when Brittney Griner was still detained, they actually wore 42 jerseys coming out of the locker room to try and raise awareness for her case. She was still in Russia at the time. We've seen them be politically active in the past. Think about the Georgia Senate election, everything that was going on with Breonna Taylor, you know, the Minnesota looks in 2016 as well. Like, there's a long history of this. So they often use all star because it's all the stars gathered together. But for me, the thing I will remember is there was this almost dissonance, this fitting dissonance, that the players wore the shirts at the same time that Kathy Engelbert, the commissioner, was talking about how constructive the labor talks were. And she was saying in one room that she felt confident and feels confident that there will be an agreement that will be signed by the October 31 deadline. Though she acknowledged also, like, you know, it's possible they extend in the other room on the court, in the public eye, the players wore these shirts. And that to me is like everything you need to know about this labor conversation right now. Two different stories the same time, telling two different perspectives. And, you know, inevitably they will meet in the middle if this league wants to continue eventually. And I'm sure all stakes and all parties want it to do so. But kind of a fitting image if you want to take people behind the scenes a little bit more.
- [40:48]
James Boyd
My last point on this, I mean, again, we saw Kathy dancing to knuck if you buck. But we need real bucks. That's just the bottom line. Like, that's not going to be enough to obviously, you know, smooth over all the CBA negotiations. But I do find all of it fascinating, though, from just a person. Again, just kind of parachuting in. I've only really covered the Fever or the W for the last four years, 4ish years. And so learning more and more about just how the league works is fascinating to me, especially as someone who's worked, you know, extensively in the NBA and the NFL.
- [41:19]
Ben Pickman
What I will say, too, is they have this October 31st deadline to reach an agreement. It's possible that both sides could agree to an extension or delay. But that's then where the off season becomes really interesting because you have a busy off season. In theory, you have an expansion draft with two teams coming in. We'll see if that occurs because some of those rules need to be collectively bargained. It occurred in December last year. So we'll see if and when it occurs. You have free agency, right? And pretty much all the veteran players in the league are free agents because they want to capitalize on this new cba. They're expecting significant jumps in the salaries. And so they want, they so many of them wanted to wait it out and see what they could then make. You have the college draft, you know, then in April. And then of course you have games beginning presumably next May. The closest the WNBA ever came to missing games was back in 2003. There was a intense labor negotiation and basically in that negotiation they actually delayed the draft a little bit and they agreed to a deal April 19, I believe, 2003. So just around a month before the start of the season, they didn't end up missing games. And basically what the chief negotiator for the PA said at the time was that the acceptance was a little bit reluctant, but she said that like the players just want to play basketball and that maybe the league at that time could not afford to actually miss basketball games. The big difference now, you know, 20 plus years later is that, well, there's so much big difference. Like the league is in a totally different place as we're talking about. The business is in a totally different place. It's skyrocketed, it's exploded. Franchise values are what they are. And so the players would say that they have more value, more leverage, excuse me now than they ever have before. And so we will see if there is a lockout, a work stoppage, how long it lasts if events have to get moved on the calendar condensed. Because there is a lot that is going to occur this offseason in a normal time and we will now see, depending on how long these talks go, you know what the timeline for the winter is a lot very much still is up in the air and we will keep you posted on it all on the Athletic, on the website and on the podcast as well.
- [43:49]
James Boyd
Foreign.
- [43:53]
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Ben Pickman
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- [46:30]
Ben Pickman
James, let's close this episode out by talking schedule a little bit, because I think that was the other thing that stuck out to me from the weekend games start back up on Tuesday when people are listening to this show. That is a very, very quick turnaround. Not much break for the players. Just what do you think is a media member, not even as a player of the quick turnaround. I mean, it seems like you have a reaction to it all.
- [46:59]
James Boyd
Yeah, no, I'm saying this because I was trying to catch up on some work. What was this? Sunday, for those listening. And to me, one of the crazier things was getting emails saying, oh, by the way, there's practice tonight if you want to come by for availability. And it blew my mind. And I was like, wait, wait a second. Huh? Like, I just saw everyone Saturday night or Friday night. So I'm like, why is there practice Monday night? I just assumed that they wouldn't be practicing. But also I'm like, oh yeah, you have games you need part of that to get ready.
- [47:32]
Ben Pickman
Let me interrupt you. The Fever literally had a practice on Sunday night. Sunday night the Indiana Fever held a basketball practice in Gainbridge Fieldhouse or in the practice court in Gainbridge Field House. Not all Stars, but still. Think about that for a second, folks, right?
- [47:49]
James Boyd
I'm like, it wasn't like the other players just did nothing. Like a lot of them were still out late at night or a few of them were in the different skills challenges, like one of them being Lexi hall in the three point contest. And then, you know, you had again, Cindy Colson doing her comedy thing one of the nights. So all of that to me was just like, dang, like, when, when's the break? And again, I go back to the point I made earlier. Ben 44 game season longer season of, you know, WNBA history. And so how does that factor into the product that we saw throughout All Star weekend, but the product we see after as well, when the stars, I mean, you had a few of them openly admit, like, hey, we don't have much of a break. I think it might have been SAB actually who said, you know, yeah, it might be more competitive, but we know we have real games and we have to, you know, preserve our bodies, preserve our energy, make sure we avoid injury and things like that. So to me, it's just a whirlwind. And honestly, I was feeling for you guys too, because I'm like, usually as, you know, someone who's. I've covered a couple of NBA, NBA All Star weekends and you get at least two or three days to kind of reset. Whereas you all, it's like you're back in New York, you know, you, you have a couple days off and then, you know, the, the next day you're going to cover a game. And so to me, that's just that that is something that I do think they probably will want to negotiate as well into this new CBA is like, you know, I know as far as like, logistically when it comes to scheduling and TV contracts and when you want to make sure you're playing your game so you don't overlap too much with other things. But just like health wise and league wise, how do you find that balance of making sure your players get the right amount of rest and would that enhance your midseason showcase? Because I was blown away. I could not believe that I got an email because I was thinking, get off my phone. Like, I love you guys. I don't want to see any of you guys. But that to me was very fascinating. And honestly, Credit to the players because yes, they don't have any other choice in theory, but I mean, you got to be a pros pro to make sure you're showing up and practicing hard and trying to get ready for what will be a big second half of the season for not only the Fever, but I'm sure other teams had practices as well. And so just a really quick turnaround.
- [49:51]
Ben Pickman
Yeah. And that is why I think the game quality was what it was. We should say for context, big picture. When you look at some of the dates the NBA All Star break and WNBA All Star break, I think there's one more technical day in NBA All Star break than there is on the W side based on like league calendar. However, when you dig into it a little more, I just want to throw out an example. Two thirds of the NBA played their final game before All Star Weekend on the Wednesday before All Star weekend. About two thirds. Then there was just one game, a single game on the Wednesday after. So technically, you know, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday were the only days without games in the. But in practice, almost all the teams played their last game on a Wednesday and their first game back on a Wednesday. In the wnba, all but three teams played their final game on the Wednesday before All Star break, and all but three teams play again on Tuesday. And all those teams are the same. So, you know, almost everyone, everyone has the Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday off. So in, in theory, like the breaks are a similar length when you look at just calendar dates. But in practice, you know, there's an extra day or two depending on your schedule based on when you resume. And that really does make a difference. Again, in the NBA, so many of these teams are going Wednesday to Wednesday, whereas in the W teams are going, you know, Wednesday to Tuesday.
- [51:23]
James Boyd
Yes. Real quick, Ben, I think, and I think to further your point, the one game I'm not mistaken for the NBA that was played that Wednesday after All Star break was a makeup game because of the LA fires. Well, I believe like the Lakers and the Charlotte Hornets. So everyone else got back to like their regular schedule that Thursday. So that's the only reason I even had a game that early. So, you know, that to me kind of lets you know how the scheduling works. But I'll let you continue.
- [51:47]
Ben Pickman
No, that, that is a great point. And we should say again, schedule is one of these topics that will be talked about in the CBA negotiations. Kathy Angelbert acknowledged that it's possible that the league in the near term might have to go into November, potentially next year, even because of the feeble World Cup. And so we will see with more teams with a desire for more product with I'm sure TV network saying we want more WNBA what the schedule looks like. So James, as we wrap this episode, I don't know, let's do a quick look ahead. We're going to talk on Thursday or on Friday about the second half of the season in more depth and some of the storylines and things that we are watching for. But is there just a game that you have your eye on that you are excited to see in the intervening days as the league gets back under play?
- [52:36]
James Boyd
That is a good question. Well, I'll put it like this and I don't have the date right in front of me. I can actually probably look it up. But the pettiness in me wants to see when dejuana Bonner comes back to Indiana. And you know, knowing that the Phoenix Mercury are playing very good basketball right now and also knowing that the Fever are kind of like hovering around, you know, are they going to make the playoffs? Are they not, you know, where is Kelan Clark and all that as far as her health goes. So that to me is the game that piques my interest. Cause I just know for a fact there will be a little bit of here it is. I think it's July 30th. So I got about a week until she's back here and I'm sure that'll be something sort of, you know, circle on the calendar. But beyond that, league wide, I'm just curious to see again, you know, what does the Liberty look like when jeanqual Jones come back? Like, you know, how does she fit back into this thing and you know, try to go for that, you know, back to back championship run and you know, the Minnesota Lynx, I mean they've kind of, I feel like they've kind of stolen a lot of the spotlight. I don't know if stolen's the right word. They've earned it rather. But I think between the stud buds and you know, Fee playing at an incredible level and them, you know, trying to avenge their finals loss from last year, how do they kind of stack up with the rest of the season goes on. But I'm excited for it, man. And again, I'm thinking of you and Sabrina as far as, you know, coffee and you know, energy drinks, whatever else you might need to get across the finish line.
- [54:02]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, yeah. A lot of just trying to keep the energy up. If I can highlight kind of three games this week that have my eye, I'm just going to highlight the Las Vegas Aces schedule because a lot of teams come out really hot after the break. Las Vegas hosts Atlanta on Tuesday. They then go to Indy on Thursday. That's another big game. And then they go to Minnesota on Friday. So that is a very tough three game stretch for the Las Vegas Aces who entered the All Star Break 11 and 11. They are certainly one of the teams to watch, but I have my eye there. And then, you know, I'll be at Indiana vs. New York. It will be a Jonquil Jones return game. Barring any setback she had over the All Star break. Caitlin Clark not expected to play, but I'm excited just to see those two teams tip it all off on Tuesday night. Before we go, I want to say a congratulations on behalf of this show to our colleague Chantel Jennings. You might have noticed that you have not heard Chantel for a little bit on this show and you won't hear Chantel for a little bit while longer on this show because Chantel and her family welcomed twins. Last week. She put it out on Twitter that everyone is healthy and well, chantel said. And she made the joke that she's now adjusting to a lifetime of zone defense because they have three kids under three. I think they're all excited. She called it an adventure. And we are excited for Chantel, her family and we're excited to eventually have her back in the college basketball season in 2026.
- [55:37]
James Boyd
So as a twin, I just want to jump right in and say, you know, Chantel, you know, just pick a favorite. I think I'm the favorite. You know, it's worked out well for me and my family. But you know, congratulations and I guess double up on everything because my parents tell me it was quite a time, a fun time, but quite a time.
- [55:55]
Ben Pickman
I can imagine that, James, knowing the energy you bring and what I saw over the weekend. But that is all we got for you today. We will be back on Friday to ask some big questions about the second half of the 2025 WNBA season. But until then, if you haven't already, please follow our show wherever you're listening. Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, and while you're at it, give us a rating. Drop a comment. We would love to to hear from you and of course head on over to our partner, the Yahoo. Sports Hub for more content@sports.yahoo.com womens sports on behalf of James Boyd, who is coming off a very tired weekend in Indy, on behalf of the athletic, I am Ben Pickman. Thank you for listening and we will see you next time no Off Season.
- [56:40]
James Boyd
Is hosted by Zena Kada with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producers are Andrea B. Scott and Cassius Fleming. Our theme music is Marcus Bagala. Monica Compton is our video editor. Shannon Ryan is managing editor of Women's basketball at the Athletic. Jesse Burton is our head of audio and Tim McMaster is director of audio operations.
- [57:09]
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