← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
WNBA and Players' Union Reach 'Historic Deal’
00:49:45
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- [00:13]
A
Hello, everyone, and welcome to no Off Season, presented by Sam's Club. I'm Zena Caida.
- [00:18]
B
I'm Lazia Clarindon.
- [00:20]
A
And today on the show, we've asked it a dozen times over the last few months, deal or no deal, And I am so happy to say y'. All. Deal. What's happened, y'? All? In the wee hours of Wednesday morning, the WNBA and the players union handshake agreed to the new historic. And I put this in quotes because we are still figuring out how much historians make being made, and we're going to figure that out very soon. The CBA deal. We've got everything you need to know, plus some incredible insider perspective from a person who's been in the room where it happened. Our new co host, Lajah. But first we gotta get information on how historic this actually is. So we are welcoming in our incredibly talented co host and writer, Sabrina Merchant, who stayed up all night, all night following this historic CBA deal in real time. We had a live stream set for you all day long. Shout out to the fans that noticed. Okay? So our producer was waiting, waiting to pull the trigger on it. And we were waiting because we wanted to make sure that we had all of the details confirmed. That's how we do at the Athletic. Okay. We make sure we got those numbers locked in. Well, we have those details now. So, Sabrina, share. Tell us all about the deal or no deal that is finally a deal.
- [01:40]
B
Also, you look good to have been up already, so. You're right.
- [01:42]
A
I was gonna say the same thing. Good thing.
- [01:44]
C
I just wanna credit our coworker, Mike Vorkanov, who is actually on the ground in New York, like, feeding me all of the live stuff from Kathy Engelbert and Echo K and the rest of the union. And that was very helpful. You know, we got a full team effort going here.
- [01:59]
A
There you go.
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C
Makes it so much easier to do the job on the west coast when somebody's doing that in New York.
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B
There you go.
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A
Spots, facts.
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C
All right, so big picture, let's talk about it. We've been talking about revenue sharing this entire time with the wnba, cba. And as of now, terms of the agreement over the life of the deal, it's going to be a 20% revenue share that the players are getting out of the total league and team revenue that the WNBA brings in. So, you know, we've mentioned throughout the process, right, like it was going to be about 15% from the league's proposals. You know, the players were asking for 28, 26, sort of came down met in the middle at that 20% number, which I felt like if we could get two in front of it, then the players would have agreed to it.
- [02:41]
A
Okay, so 15%. They went up to 20%. Okay. The players association had to go down from about 40 where they first started, but then they. They went to the 27. 26 over the course of the deal, landed at 20, which is good. As you mentioned, they have a 2. All right, let's keep going.
- [02:58]
C
All right, so that 20% of total revenue means that the salary cap in year one in 2026, is going to be $7 million for each team. And just for a little bit of context, the salary cap in 2025, the year we were just coming off of, was about 1.5 million. So more than four times the salary cap in year one. And it's going to go up every year of this deal.
- [03:19]
B
Okay. God.
- [03:21]
A
Solid movement upwards. All right, let's keep it moving.
- [03:24]
C
Big number.
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B
Yes.
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A
What else?
- [03:26]
C
Minimum salary in this agreement is about $300,000, which means that the minimum in 2026 is going to be more than the maximum in 2025.
- [03:36]
B
Yes. Six figure anyone's ear. Yes.
- [03:41]
A
That's amazing.
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C
Okay, so Everybody in the WNBA in 2026 is going to be paid better than Kelsey Mitchell and Jewel Lloyd and Asia Wilson were in 2025.
- [03:52]
B
That's how grossly underpaid they were.
- [03:54]
A
Exactly. Just say it one more time, Sabrina. Say that one.
- [03:57]
C
Everybody in the WNBA will be paid more than the super Duper stars were. Like Kelsey Mitchell, like Rike Gumbowale, like Jewel Lloyd, like Asia Wilson were in 2025.
- [04:09]
A
Wow. Let that sink in, y'.
- [04:11]
B
All.
- [04:12]
A
Let that sink in. And also let that sink in from the perspective of why the players were holding steady, why they were refusing. Because that was possible. That was possible. And we have to think about it. They made a compromise. So even the fact that they landed here just gives you context as to what was actually possible. That's amaz. Sorry. Keep going, Sabrina. This is great.
- [04:33]
B
Couple more numbers. Give us a moment here.
- [04:36]
C
Supermax salary is going to be $1.4 million in year one of the deal. So basically, like, equal to the cap.
- [04:43]
B
So the salary cap, the whole salary cap.
- [04:47]
A
So people just gonna be having the teams in their pocket now. Like, that's.
- [04:53]
B
I like that. And now no longer compared to the NBA is like that last dude last, last. Last dude on the bench makes more than our. Almost entire. You know, like that 9. No longer that the f. Off.
- [05:04]
A
Yeah, like, yeah, I bet. I bet wow. Okay, so these are the big numbers
- [05:09]
C
that the average salary is going to be about $600,000 per player. And as a reminder, the way the system was set up is that there's a cap at the start of the year, but then they're expecting more revenue sharing to kick in at the end of the season because the cap is going to be formed by the previous year's revenue. It's a little complicated, but. Okay, only under the cap is that
- [05:29]
B
technically a soft cap. Then
- [05:32]
C
the revenue sharing is going to kick in sort of like how the payouts did in the previous cba. You know how you guys. Like if you guys triggered the targets and you got extra beyond that. So they're projecting to hit those targets. But like under the cap, the average salary, if you did just 7 million divided by 12 is about 580. But they're expecting revenue sharing to kick in to knock that up above $600,000 for average salary.
- [05:54]
A
Okay, okay. So. Oh, wow. Okay. And these are the big things. Remember, the salary and the revenue share were massive. And you and Chantel are gonna go even deeper into this on our next episode. That's gonna be dropping on Friday. But there were also other elements of this deal that were more so towards the continuing to ameliorate the dignities of the players parental leave, housing. Housing was a big one. Where did things land there?
- [06:24]
C
Right. So unfortunately, we don't have all of the specific details of exactly how housing has evolved or parental leave, maternity. I can say that based on Neko Gumike's statement that she gave right after, you know, they came into alignment on the deal in the wee hours of Wednesday morning, she said that it strengthens housing, strengthens retirement, expands resources for family planning and parental leave, raises the standard across facilities and staffing and support for teams. So all of those things that they wanted, you know, a higher player experience, like a professional player experience for everyone in the wnba, it seems like they've gotten, if not exactly what they want and then closer to those targets.
- [07:07]
A
Okay.
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B
Because housing is a big one. That. That's like a big question.
- [07:12]
C
Yeah, those are neck as words. Don't know exactly what that all means. But sure, if she's saying redefines what it means to be a professional, you know, then I'm inclined to believe that she is happy with the terms that they came to an agreement on.
- [07:24]
A
Just like we are happy that they came to agreement so that there is a WNBA season that is about to happen. So finally, we are closing out deal or no Deal, and Now it's just going to be details, details.
- [07:37]
C
So many things that can take the room of this segment. You know, we could talk about expansion drafts. We can talk about the actual draft. We can talk about 100 plus trainer
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A
camp or no trainer camp, like, right,
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B
just games, just preseason.
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A
There's so many things that are about to happen. Um, so yeah, we will be taking a. A pivot from that, but at least this is taken care of. They will start to get the little legal details of the CBA in order. And Sabrina, you and Chantel are gonna give us a deeper dive into all of this on our next episode of no off season. And oof. No off season, no sleep. Sabrina, you do it all. Thank you so much for giving us
- [08:13]
C
one more thing I wanna add. We had talked about, you know, a drop dead date on March 10th, and afterwards, Kathy Engelbert had said that the season could be impacted. They didn't get the deal done obviously, until March 18th, but she did say that training camp will start as scheduled on April 19. There will not be any missed games. Season will tip off on May 8th. So although we don't know the exact schedule of how expansion draft free agency will fit in before April 19, just know that that target is going to happen. They will get their two and a half weeks of training camp before the season starts.
- [08:44]
B
Okay, I double check my calendar for what day it is today.
- [08:47]
A
I'm not gonna lie to you. My chest just got tight. My chest got t a little tight. As you laid that out, I think
- [08:53]
B
we need to all, like, take a collective deep breath. Like, as the entire women's basketball community before the sprint is like, there's like the season, no season, then there is, and then like as we're recording this,
- [09:02]
C
there are March Madness games happening, so that's happening too, right?
- [09:05]
B
Drink water. Take care of yourselves, people. Just reminder.
- [09:09]
A
Yes, thank you so much, Serena. We are going to talk a little bit more about what it's like to be inside of a CBA deal from the perspective of Leja Clarendon, who was on the other side of this conversation within the deal or no deal conversation back in 2019. 2020. So wait for the break and then we'll get into that. The WNBA has been hitting new milestones. Record TV deals, packed arenas and more attention than ever. And now a historic, finally CBA deal. But this is not the first historic deal, okay? And in fact, our new co host, who is here with me now, was in the room where it happened on the last one. We gotta do a little history lesson. Lay. Okay. Because you were really the one that put me on game to how all of this built out. Not from this CBA 2024 was basically like the baby of the 2020 CBA and the work you all did to lay the groundwork then. So take us back. Back in 2019, 2020, when you were vice president of the WNBPA, what was that negotiation like for you all?
- [10:29]
B
Oh, God. What was it like? It was. Well, like, I'm like, trying to put the timeline back. I'm like, okay, we didn't have the pandemic yet, right? Because we negotiated that entire season as well, and the stress just kind of lumps all together. But the 2019 CBA was stressful, joyful. I mean, leadership is so much of, like, showing up, trying your best, learning as you go, Right? Because we're figuring it out. Is my second term as vice president the one really huge takeaway of the difference in this last CBA was like, we were fighting to get people to care about the fact that we still shared bedrooms. Right? Like, we were fighting for, like, basic dignity. We were fighting for people. It's public opinion to, like, care and matter and pay attention. So, like, what I see now in the way that people are paying attention, the way the fans are, like, we're gonn unfollow the W. We don't get, like, we're going to do whatever it takes. We're going to support unrivaled all of these things. That was a different landscape than the where we were at way back then. We were at the place where we just trying to get people to care and pay attention and we would do surveys and public opinion. People thought we made, like, $200,000. They thought we were complaining. They didn't realize the minimums of rookies then were like 50 grand, you know, like, they just didn't know because they see you on tv. They're like, of course, it's the wnba. You guys make money. We're like, no. So I kind of call that our Obama era of, like, we're just digging out of the muck of the past. Like, we were just kind of trying to level set to get us back to a decent place so we could continue to build upon. And we knew this next CBA was, like, really gonna be the one to knock it out of the park, but that ours was historic in its own right. But, like, we were thinking already about the future of, like, what this next one's gonna be.
- [12:04]
A
There's so much here that's interesting because beyond just the public opinion, the court of public opinion that you had to basically open the doors to so that people could come down, sit and be in the jury and understand what was actually being laid out as evidence. Hey, we have to share Bedro. Um, you know, we have to travel on regular flights just like yours. Our flights, our baggage. Right. Southwest. Our baggage gets delayed just as much as yours does. Like, yeah, it was also getting the players to buy in. And that was interesting, too. Like, I learning the fact that. So before your. So that was your second term, when did. Who was your president at the time of the wnbpa?
- [12:44]
B
I think that was my first term, but I served two terms. So before NECA was Tamika Ketchik. So when I came in the league in 2013, Tamika Catchings had been president. And at that time, there was so much apathy in the league of, like, players just didn't want to be player reps. They didn't care. Oftentimes you got assigned to be a player rep as a rookie because it was like, the duty. Like, no one wanted to do. So they'd be like, yay, rookie. Like, you got to be a player rep. That wasn't the case with Indiana. Like, Catch, really, early on, did encourage me. Like, she was. She did say, you need to be a rep because she saw my leadership skills, and she was like, you need to get involved right away. And I was like, yes, Catch.
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A
Okay.
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B
So I got a fault.
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A
Whatever Tamika Cashing says we're doing.
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B
Yeah. And I also cared. Brion January was our player rep. And then I was like, okay, I'll be the alternate. And so. And then I had the president. So right away, I was already seeing how hard she worked, how much she cared, how much other people didn't care. Like, I'd get on the calls. I was just a rookie being like, what's going on? Is there cba? So kind of fast forward and continue to be a player rep throughout my time in Atlanta, then becoming vice president, the one big thing we shifted, and I think Catch deserves so much credit. Swin Cash, Jayna Pell, Marinelli, Tanisha Wright, all those people who were fighting to care for people, like, just to get them to care, right? They're like, we're literally doing this out of, like, the care for this league, for your livelihood. Like, this is your union. And I think the big shift we had with Terry Jackson coming in, too, as our executive director helped. And then Neko Gumike myself, it was just, like, galvanizing people in terms of leadership, getting people to care, educating them to say, like, when we go to those league. When Terry Jackson would go around, there's a league meeting around the entire league. She travels to all 12 teams at the start of the season. And like she's gonna sit you in the room and she like will talk to you like a mom. Like, she looks at you, she's like, this is your union. And like put your phones away. Like, she was like that kind of like, no, y' all need to care about this because like. And she's. And she'd be like, don't come back complaining to me about why this didn't happen when you're not involved, right? So like in a very loving way, like she would pull people in. And then it was us also reflecting that message. She'd be like, yo, don't complain about why so and so didn't happen. Like, I didn't see you on the call. Like, what's up? Or like, why didn't you get on the call? Hey, you gonna get on the call? Like, we'd love to have you in leadership. Like, come on. Like just kind of constantly pulling and calling people in. And so I think you've seen that shift now where like people want to be a part of it. Like Kelsey Plum was like, oh, I want to be VP next, right? Like, people are like, I hope it's to a point where people are buying for those positions where we really have to have like full out votes. Where it's like campaigns.
- [15:09]
A
I'm like, right.
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B
Not just like filling the spot cause you got told, but like being like, no, like who's gonna be the next president after neca? I think about that, I think like Nafisa Collier, like those kind of players who are next in line to take on, you know, the throne.
- [15:24]
A
I make all I wanted. I'm so happy you brought exactly that up because you were the one that told me that first that the main throne, like the shift from the throne, like as in Tamika Catchings being the president and then Nika being the president afterwards is Tameka Catching does so much work as she passed the torch to NECA of getting the players more involved, getting them more bought in to the process and understanding the process. And then NECA took that torch and has been running with it since. And you're seeing not only the biggest things having changed since 2013 going into that 2019, 2020 CBA is the players care more and the public cares more. And as a result now the league has to care more. And you're seeing that be represented in the conversations and the type of negotiation that happened. But let's keep talking a little bit about that 2019, 2020 and things that were different and like what it was, what your mindset was going into that 2020 CBA. Because guys, from a historical perspective, I think I've mentioned this on the podcast before, but I had this realization when I was talking to Leigh covering the Valkyries last summer and thinking about the timeline. A lot of folks that have joined our show, even joined this ecosystem of women's basketball often think as the tipping point, the pinnacle point, the thing that changed the whole landscape as that 2024 class, right? Thinking of Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese and everyone that came with that. And particularly that class being one of the first class to graduate, being fully nil type of classes or majority nil type of classes. Like these were the classes that put women's basketball on the big, big, big, big map, right? But what's interesting is that there was a version of this same class right before the 2020 CBA, but in a different social media and media landscape. So before there ever was the 2024, you can't see me battle between LSU, Iowa, all that stuff that was built up during that time in 2024, there was Notre Dame, there was UConn, there were the Arike Ogunbawale shots heard from around the world. Type of things that happened in the 2018 and 2019 NCAA tournaments that really helped galvanize, and I love this word, cause that I think is gonna be so important for the women's basketball space, but helped galvanize fans around. Whoa, women's basketball is fun. It's huge. Like look at these big time shots they're making. There were commercials made about the shot, like I can't remember who it was that had that commercial where it was silent and you could just hear the call of Arika Gumbawale putting that shot up and like chills that were sent out. And there was an entire campaign. She went on a tour, she went on Ellen DeGeneres, she did all these things. And I know, you know, Sabrina has mentioned this as well on the pod, but like that was a huge mom for women's basketball getting back on the map, even from a class that you wanted to follow into the W and lay. I feel like those of you that were already in the league saw this and knew that there was momentum coming from this class and it helped give you leverage to go into these negotiations. Cuz you felt similar to what this CBA negotiation Felt of, oh, we know our value. Look at how y' all just popped off again about this amazing class that's coming in, these personalities that are coming in, this talent that's coming in, and it's almost being replicated, but just on a grander scale right now. So what was that like, even for you all? To see that class come in and the star power in that class and the appeal of that class.
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B
Mm, yeah, you nailed it. I mean, it was powerful. And I think internally from the league, everything we were hearing was the numbers are up, the viewership's up, like, they're made, right? Like, all internally, yeah, we were hearing all of these great things and we're like, yeah, they are. And then you go on the CB like, oh, sorry, we don't. We can't give you X, Y and Z. Right? We're like, wait, we have this amazing class. We have all this. Does this sound familiar?
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A
Does this sound familiar?
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B
Cyclical, right? Like, all of these things are just cycles over and over and over. Meanwhile, like, it's not like you didn't have Tamia Catchings and you had all this amazing Olympic star power that was already in the W, right? Like, all we could probably point back to certain these cycles around, right? I'm thinking of 2013. My class, I was number nine, but I was a part of the three to see. Like, the big three was. Three to see was Brittney Griner, Elena Delladon, and Skyler Diggins. Like, that class was.
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A
And they were huge. Yeah, it is a cycle. You're absolutely right.
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C
They were.
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B
And that was the year we shifted to the 24 second shot clock. Like, that was like BG literally, like, was changing the game because there was, like, we didn't do it because of bg. Phoenix, the year before had set out. They, like, what is that called when you not fold the season? They, like, through the season so they could get bg, essentially. And then the next year, they tanked. Tank the season. And then. Oh, I love the fact that you
- [20:31]
A
did not even know that word. That's such a different conversation from the NBA side. The NBA side is like, oh, strategically, draft positioning tanked. But, yes, go ahead.
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B
They tanked. And then they also changed the rule that it's two years now. You can't just tank in a one year, right? So, like, you was like, shifting, like, again, they said it was a herb. We're all like, come on.
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A
Like, come on.
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B
State players coming into the league, all of a sudden, shot CL defensive. Three seconds is coming. You know, the Shot clock's getting shorter and you can't tank anymore because it's your two, right, Your two year record that matters. Not anymore. So then you have the ar, like the Notre Dames, all these huge classes. And then the thing I think we're not mentioning is what the 2020 season did. Like, that was in terms of like, okay, you had the 19, you had all the talent from the college coming. But then what the 2020 year did for us, it positioned our league. And this was only one year. This is like right after we signed that 19 deal. So we can't. The leverage that would have shifted if that CBA expired one year later versus the timing expired, like, couldn't do anything about it. So as soon as the 2020 bubble season happens, like our league explodes and people finally start paying attention, the world is on pause. NBA is on pause, the MLB is paused. And then the W gets to be center stage. Like, we did so much social justice work that summer, but one of the most socially just things that came out of that summ was the fact that we got to be front and center finally. Like, we got to be on display. It was just like, okay, here's this league, the W gets its shot. We're on tv, we're prime time. We're getting all the attention we don't normally get because we're fighting and buying, right, with all of these other sports that are performing. And so what that did was shift us and that prepared us, right, like in a pushing us, like kind of on the pedestal. We deserve to finally be on, to be prepared for this moment with the cba. And I think that was the turn of, like, public opinion starting to care, right? And then we're building over these next few years. We signed this historic cba. We're feeling what it feels like to live in it. Like, all right, we're like, we have dignity.
- [22:27]
A
We're.
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B
We have two bedroom apartments. As a parent, we have all these little perks now. Wow. I have my own room. Cameron Breen comes into the league, she doesn't have to share a room. Like Rekia Jackson. I was teammates with them. Like, and then you kind of fast forward to my last year in la where like, we get charter flights, right? Momentum's building. And that wasn't in the cba. And that was because of. Of internally the work the EC was doing with Kathy. And public opinion was kind of pushing to be like, wait, why aren't they flying private? Right? The Caitlyns came in, the Angel Reese's came in and they demanded the attention of like, safety and security. Right. And mind you, we talked about that with Brittney Griner. Right. Like, BG came back from Russia. It was like, BG's not safe. Right. Like, we could get into that in a whole racial conversation or not. But like, I think they just kept building. Like there's like all of these blocks and steps that kept, like preparing us and preparing us. Right? Because people see the breakthrough and they want to point to one moment, but I think it's the, and, and it's, and, and, and, and, and, and that class came in and is phenomenal. Like, right. We love the fact that what this young group is doing is like, I don't want them to know a world that's. I want them to know a different world than the world I knew. That's why I fight the way you fight. Why would I want them to deal with the same I dealt with? Right.
- [23:36]
A
Like, and this is exactly. Oh, God, I love your passion around this. And I, I do want. I'm so happy that you made a, that it wasn't like multiple moments. It's a cycle. This has been happening for a very long time. But it feels as if this is different. And the main reason this feels particularly different is because it's the perfect confluence of all of the factors needed for it to be different this time. You have the exploding attendance at the arenas. You've got the record TV viewership which has caused the brands and the media rights partners to buy in. So you've got record support from sponsors, as well as $2 billion media rights deal that the media, the WNBA is involved in $200 million a year for the next 11 years. You've got the cultural moments that are happening all at once. You've got the players and the fans together, which in a way that they hadn't been before on the same page in terms of their buy in and in terms of their support of each other and wanting to provide a great product on the floor. And there's communication with the players, as you mentioned. There's people wanting to be in these positions. There are people going on other podcasts, TV shows and all these things and talking about these issues in a way that I don't know, that I remember hearing in the same way. And that is a matter of the media making, you know, deciding what voices are amplified or not. But it also is a matter of the time and the moment. And so everything feels perfectly aligned in this moment. And I want to now talk about. CBA has agreed upon yes. Handshake deal. What is about to happen next? And I also want to. As I ask you this question, I'm curious what other friends and folks around the league that, you know that might have been involved in this or maybe are just, like, peripheral to this, what people are saying about what they expect to be next after the cba and, like, how is it really going to change things for the players?
- [25:34]
B
Oh, God. How will it change things for the players? Changing. Oh, my God. Yeah.
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A
Yeah.
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B
I mean, I'm just thinking about the way the last one changed my life. Right. And this one's building upon that. So.
- [25:48]
A
Right.
- [25:49]
B
If we were fighting for dignity, you're like, oh, wow, livelihood. Like, this is what it feels like to be a true professional, to make my salary, to have money to live and be able to, like, think about my life. Not in these cycles of, like, how do I earn enough money to also keep going? Like, right. What do I have to do overseas? Do I have to play? Do I have to do something? Right? Like, I always had to do something in the off season. I played in California. I live in California. Like, that salary wasn't enough to break, like, nothing.
- [26:13]
A
It's expensive. People always ask me, why you got so many jobs. Because I live in California. Exactly right. Continue
- [26:20]
B
just being able. Like, we put so much effort, energy, our heart, sweat, blood, tears, emotional. Like, everything we have into getting to this moment, to becoming a part of the 1% of talented people in the world to be able to do the job that we do, so to be correctly compensated and appreciated for that is just one thing. That it's like, yes. Like, that social justice, to me is like, one of the most beautiful moments in. The most beautiful thing that's happening right now in this moment is like, black women, especially a league of. Full of black women, of queer black women are gonna get what they are owed. Which so often, right, we fight with the pay gap. We fight with so many things, like, we just don't get what we deserve. So that, to me, like, just had me take a deep breath this morning. Like, I was just. I was kind of having church in my car at one point because I know the impact. Like, when I saw the news, Papa, and I was on threads, and I was like, I had to get off for a moment because I was, like, overwhelmed with emotion and just grateful. Like, grateful to be a part of the journey in that way of, like, oh, yeah, this is why I was fighting so hard. And, like, I hope this moment would come and I'm not in it anymore. But so when you're really out of it, you have no control. You're just kind of now on the peripheral, like, watching, supporting. And I've intentionally stayed really far back from it for my own, like, emotional well being because of how stressful the last years of my career were. And so to see it happen, it's just like, I'm just like, I was just hands up, cheering, like, we did it. Like, they did it. We did it. Oh, my God. I knew. I knew in my lifetime, and I hoped in my lifetime. But then you're always kind of like, right, right, it's gonna happen.
- [27:55]
A
It makes me think of the Kamala Harris. We did it, Joe. We did it, Joe.
- [28:00]
B
Like, I called Terry, like. Like I was gonna blow her phone up today, but I was just like, this is.
- [28:07]
A
Yeah. And it's really special. And I wonder if Terri called up Kathy and was like, we did it, Kathy.
- [28:14]
B
No, but I saw the picture of them all in the room.
- [28:16]
A
Like, I was like, okay, yeah, that's good, right? It's good. And I'm so happy you brought up this part of it, because it is a part that is lost in this conversation. This entire time that we've been talking about the CBA negotiation, it's been the numbers, the numbers, the numbers, the numbers. And the numbers are incredibly important because they will significantly change the lives of everyone that comes through the league and those even that have gone from the league. And what we don't see within the numbers is what you just laid out so eloquently. The feeling of those numbers being even discussed for these women. The feeling of these numbers even being an option, an opportunity to reach, like, to be heard. And you just, prior to this, you were saying, you know, the racial aspect of this, and I don't wanna diminish that in this space of time. I don't know if we have all the time in the world to get into it, but that is true. For a long time, the conversation around these CBA negotiations, we've tried to make it seem like it's a black and white numbers thing. The league has the money, the players want more, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And we've kind of removed the identity of the that are behind these asks. But the truth of the matter is, is that the WNBA is a league of predominantly black black queer women. And black queer women take each on its own. Black, that's a column. Queer, that's a column. Women, that's a column. People that are in marginalized groups, people that often have to advocate for themselves. Way more than the average person to be able to be recognized, to be valued, to be heard. All of the above. And so I. I do not want how important it is to have black queer women. Those columns all come together and be represented amongst an entire group and be heard and feel like they've been respected to the point that they were able to come to an agreement. That said, I do want to talk about what's about to happen next really quickly, and I also want to talk about, like, in terms of, like, the actual season, but I also wanna really quickly touch on. How do you set up now the next cba? Cause let's be real, compromises were made just like they were made back in 2020. Right. You made some compromises. You knew it was about dignity, making sure that you had the basic necessities for you to be able to show up and do your job as professional athletes without having to worry about the things that impacted you as parents, as women, as people in the world. Basically, you want it to be treated like professional athletes, so you prioritize those things. Knowing things like the salary structure and the revenue share structure were gonna be things that you're gonna have to address in the next one. Well, some of that was addressed in this one. I wanna know a little bit about what we can expect them to address in the next one. But before we get there, there's an agreement that has to be signed. It's a handshake agreement, but agreement has to be signed. The season starts May 8. What do you think we can expect between now and May 8th?
- [31:41]
B
As a fan, the internal.
- [31:43]
A
Well, not even. But I guess what the players are about to experience, because there's free agency, there's a draft.
- [31:50]
B
Yeah, that's the same.
- [31:51]
A
There's two expansion drafts. There's camp. There's a million things that have to happen. What do you think is about to come next?
- [32:01]
B
So this is uncharted territory to have it be this close up to the season. Right. The last one I was a part of, we were getting the deal done. We were. February. Okay. Yeah. January. The free agency could start on time. And that was like, oh. Oh, God. Like, tight. So this one is, like, the fact that the season schedule's not getting impacted is, like, kind of remarkable.
- [32:19]
A
Yeah.
- [32:19]
B
But I mean, internally, they'll have to ratify. They'll have to player reps. They'll have to officially vote. They'll get their, like, you know, secure email out, and I'll press yes or no. And the legal side of it will be like, okay. Right. And. And that's actually one of the lessons I learned from the last CBA was like, what you agree upon in handshake and then what the lawyers actually do with the language. Like, that's important because some things came out of that last CBA that we were like, we agree to this, but that's not exactly how we saw it. And I imagine that is part of what has taken this one so long. Because we're smarter, right? Players know more. We learn lessons from the last one. It's like getting really clear about what we mean. Right. And what that language means and what we're agreeing to before we agree. And so my understanding is this CBA now, like, the. We're in the big leagues. We went from, like, the minor leagues and things we were talking about to being like, oh, we're talking rev share. We're talking like, this is grown bling blank stuff now. Right? Like, we are at the point where. So to be clear, like, we're in a new stratosphere. And, like, this is going to become the new bar for what a CBA can look like. And I see why the NBA has gone to lockouts now because you're dealing with so much more complexity than we were in past CBAs. So I think that's the part from the legal, the contract side of it, the side of it that now you have a expansion draft for Portland and Toronto, you have free agency.
- [33:38]
A
If you're a player right now, what are. What's on your mind right now? Getting in shape, trying to find your team. Like, what. What is the most prior important thing?
- [33:45]
B
I mean, you should have. Ideally, you've already been doing that as a player because you know it's coming. There's the players who are going to get shape in camp and the ones.
- [33:52]
A
Can you tell I stopped playing after college. Great. Cool. Got it. Keep going. Sorry. Right.
- [33:57]
B
Players who played it unrivaled, some are overseas right now that that should all be happening like normal. Is some people gonna, you know, do what they do. Some people can bounce back quicker than others. But I think the free agency frenzy, like that is where you've probably been talking to your agent this whole time about where you want to go. And right players right on rival. That's when all this stuff happens. These conversations, like, yo, don't be surprised if some of them three on three teams, you see some players who start to have connections. Like, yo, you want to come play with us? Like, that's how you get these relationships. You start to play with people, you start to learn them like them and you try and get them to your squad. So that's gonna. That's the frenzy now. I think it was Ari Chambers who was like, can we start talking for agency today? And I was like, y already ran up threads, like, yes, we can. We have to.
- [34:37]
A
Right?
- [34:37]
B
Like, right. Who's going. Where is Stewie staying in New York? Like 1000% question, are the Valkyries going to get more? Are they going to get a supermax player this year? Like what? Right, like all of these swirling. What Chicago doing? Like, are they getting angels, some players?
- [34:52]
A
Who right is. Oh, that's a great question. What is Chicago going to do? But also like based on who goes where, who is available for Toronto and Portland? Like that's. I still don't understand how all that's going to break out.
- [35:07]
B
But yeah, right. And like you're six.
- [35:11]
A
Yeah. So you're having conversations with your agents. You should be staying in shape. Unless you're me, you should be staying in shape. Um, and you probably have been talking to folks, you know at Athletes Unlimited, at Unrivaled at Team USA camp. You never know. Um, and do you feel like the players are now this is like an anxious period. Like this was such an anxious period waiting for the CBA for so long. And it feels like, you know, you do get that moment of like, yes, we're having a season. Like, hell yeah, I can't wait.
- [35:49]
B
Like relief and joy. Yeah, relief and joy.
- [35:52]
A
But then also, oh, shoot, what is training camp gonna look like? Are we gonna have to learn? Are new players, like potentially, if you land a new spot, new players, new playbook, new coaches, new environment, move potentially across the country, like is that the expectation?
- [36:12]
B
Yeah, I mean that's always a bit of the reality of the W because of the short. The timing from college to pro. It's always that like this more than normal because there's going to be so much player movement because no one's on. Few people are under contract, but majority of players are not under contract because everyone signed one year deals or two year deals with the timing of knowing to capitalize on this money. So yeah, like I think the big thing that's going to happen that's really good timing is that the star players should set the stage right for the salary cap. They should be able to set the stage and then it's the middle of the road players and the like kind of last of roster players that are going to get picked up that it's going to be really hard because you're not Going to sign X player until you sign your Asias, your Stewies. Like, that's what's going to be like. So. So I think the overall frenzy and anxiety is. I would just say there's a frenzy now. There's, like, an energy that's, like, also on brand with spring. Like, we're kind of bursting forth, getting ready for this. Like, oh, my God, it's coming. And I definitely feel that. And then players just have to be ready. That's always the reality with our league. Cut, wave, traded, signed, but also, like, let's say you're on a team last year. Let's say you're in the Valkyries. Last year, we're in the Bay. We covered them. They protect their six. And then. Sorry, like, you're. Yeah, that's the part of an expansion draft that, like, now that the league is growing, that's becoming more of a reality. They could potentially lose players they didn't want to lose. A lot of teams are going to potentially lose that seven. Eighth player. We saw that last year with Indiana not protecting Timmy. Timmy gets to come here. They protected Dantes. And so you're just seeing that kind of excitement. So there's going to be a lot of movement. I feel like players and fans head spinning in terms of, like, who is in that jersey. Like, you kind of do the double take or like. Like, okay, yeah, like, I was doing that last year, and I know all these players, right?
- [37:56]
A
Yeah, there was a lot of different faces, new places, and it's gonna be even more of that. So fans, definitely get ready. My last question is what I was alluding to before. You've done the work here to get to a handshake agreement. Of course, there's still some legal, you know, ratification that you have to do to ensure that you get to the landing spot where you can put. Put pen to paper. However, we know, we heard rumblings that not everyone was on board. At one point, there was, like, little bit of, I don't know, striations between the group of, I don't know. I'm good with this amount of money. I don't know. I want a little bit more money. These are all rumors. Nothing was officially said publicly or anything of that nature. But not everyone is gonna be fed when you have these type of conversations and these type of agreements. So how do players in the PA ensure that while the league continues to grow and has success, et cetera, that they're also able to advance the interests of as many players as possible and try to keep players happy? Like, how do you strike that balance of making sure the league that you want to have succeed so that you can continue to succeed grows, but also being like, we all have different versions and definitions of success.
- [39:17]
B
Yeah. Oh, my God. And with money, right? That's like the biggest thing people argue about in relationships and life and business is the dollars. Like, everybody wants their money. We saw that back in 2020 when Courtney Williams was like, I'm just here to get my money. I ain't. Like, I'm not here for all this. Sister Dustin.
- [39:32]
A
That's exactly what I thought about. She's evolved since then. Like, she wrote a really great Players Tribune article about that. She's evolved since then, but, like, there are versions of who she was now, and they will eventually evolve, but this is where they are now. And the league. The PA and the league have to meet those players where they are. So how do you strike that balance?
- [39:50]
B
Yeah, the. The wnba, the thing we have always had and always come back to is the strength and numbers and caring about one another. And the. And the. That is like, in the fabric, in the culture. And that's the thing that as the money grows, I've been. I've been watching from the outside of, like, please don't lose. Like, I believe that they won't. But, like, when you start to hit that big time money, and like, that's when stuff can get a little bit more shaky. But, like, we had money conversations, issues when I was a part of the negotiations, right? We had some players who were more on those max side, who were underpaid for years, grossly underpaid, who were like, I'm ready to get paid. And we're like, yes, we want you to get paid. But also, like, we can't leave rookies out. Like, we can't leave. And the middle class got left out in the last cba. That was me. And I was fighting for it in the. In the seat, in the room. But, like, we had to make sure rookies also, like, could survive in the last cba. And, like, we had to make sure with certain prioritization overseas that they still had ability to. To get things. And so our saying was, all boats rise. That was the thing. Like, Terry Jackson, I think, was the one who said it. She was like, all the boat. We need to make sure everybody rises. And that was the sentiment I think, that they carried into this one, was like, everybody's gonna get more. And the thing about the league, the W that I love with the players, everyone was always on board about, like, the Stars should make star money. Like, we were like, our stars. Being treated like stars is good for us. Like, that helps the brand. Like, we want our stars to be like, why wouldn't we want. Asia paid us to be paid? Like, they absolutely deserve to get the money they deserve. But, like, I also deserve to get my, like, minimum money. And I want rookies like Cameron and Rickia at the time to get what they deserve. And so I think in that way, that sentiment is what helps folks along the way is like, no, like, we're not gonna get into scarcity, right? Like, that's where Terry Jackson is really good. And having good leaders like Alicia Clark now Neca Gumike is like, okay, like, I hear you being able to hear people out because I was in those meetings. Or we'd be texting on the side.
- [41:44]
A
Like,
- [41:47]
B
so frustrated. Just so frustrated, right? Because you're giving so much of your energy time fighting for this. And, like, you know, and people feel how they feel. And part of leadership is sitting with people how they feel, listening to them, acknowledging them, validating them, then educating, explaining and being. And then being like, okay, I hear you. And you kind of have to do this back and forth. And that just takes. Takes time. And so I think that's what. Yeah, kind of gets it done. And I think that's what helped get it done in this one was like, we can do both. You can have both. Like, we don't have to agree with this American. Like, we actually don't have to participate in the same capitalism in the way of, like, scarcity. Like, we actually, as queer black women and as a league. Who cares about all the women in our league, who wants everybody, right? All the white women, everybody. Of all the racial ethnicities in our league, we want everybody to eat. Like, we know that when everyone is good, that's good for all, right?
- [42:36]
A
Like, all boats rise. All boats rise.
- [42:40]
B
That's gonna. I think she said all tide, tides lift. All boats, something like that.
- [42:43]
A
Tides lift. Yeah, I've heard that saying. But I like all boats rise.
- [42:47]
B
I don't know.
- [42:48]
A
It's quicker. It's on the point. It's on the. In a way that I like. All right, well, Lajah, amazing, amazing insight. This is why we are so excited that you are joining, especially right now. And we. You know what? This is a good luck charm. You join the show, they agree to something. I mean, we got. This is a good vibe. I don't know. It's a good vibe. All right, y' all on the other side, we are going to Close things out with a new segment. Don't go anywhere. All right, y'.
- [43:20]
B
All.
- [43:20]
A
Now, you know I love to yap and you bring Leija in and it's just gonna be even more yapping, okay? But at some point, we do have to close out these shows and we do have to end things. And so I was very grateful when I found out that we have a new sponsored segment sponsor, Laja.
- [43:35]
B
Hey, hey, hey, hey. Money dollar.
- [43:38]
A
We've got money O. It is a new segment called and One More Thing presented by Sam's Club. And it basically gives us the opportunity to just talk about something that we think is worth your attention. A story, a thought, an opinion, whatever it may be. Uh, very quickly, Tuesday evening, Team USA capped off an undefeated run in the 2026 Women's World cup qualifiers, finishing, unsurprisingly, 5 and O. And I'm not saying unsurprisingly to throw shade at the other teams and the other countries that, you know, participated. I mostly mean that this has been a pattern. They have secured their spot in the tournament in September, but remember, this was actually just a formality. They had actually already qualified for the World cup. So they came out here dominating teams by double digit scores or differences. Excuse me. And deficits. Just for the practice, for the opportunity to get to know one another and just the live reps. And that just feels. I don't know, I'm not bored by it, but it's just like the storyline is old, right? And I think, Lajah, you having been in this, like, Team USA situation, like, I want to know, like, is it. Does it get boring for you all to just constantly be amazing, just dominating all the time? Like, what does it feel like? Does this 5 and oh. Reveal anything about Team USA as we start looking towards the World Cup?
- [45:15]
B
I mean, I think it does reveal that USA is going to be good and amazing. Again. This wasn't even the, like, AA list team. This wasn't even the actual big team roster. But the thing that. No to your question, no, we don't get bored with being good because the pressure for Team USA is insane. So that's the part that keeps you on your toes. The expectations is extremely high, right? They're going on. What is it? Eight medals? Like, however many. Yeah, someone's gonna lose. Someone's gonna be a part of the losing team. Like, and I, when I did it, I was like, it ain't gonna be me. Like, not today. Like, right? Like, it's like that sentiment of, like, you don't wanna play to Lose. But you reach a point where you're so dominant for so long and people expect it, it just becomes the norm. Right. It's like, when excellence, the standard, where do you go? Like, there's literally almost like, you stay up there or you drop. And so even losing a game, not, mind you, a medal, not a gold medal, not a silver or bronze, but, like, losing a game with USA is, like, kind of unacceptable. And so in that way, I think the pressure is something people just don't understand about how high the expectations are. The thing I loved about this USA squad and the shift in the culture that I've seen is that they look like they're having a lot more fun. It does look like there's been a joy and a levity brought back to USA that was much needed to return. And I think that's the part that I'd like to see with some of these. And also getting the younger players in, like, they were in a wave of, like, the new generation of USA Basketball happening, which is so beautiful to witness. And you're just seeing all those young, little spry bodies out there running and having fun. And so in that way, I'm not bored at all with the. With the storylines of, like, ooh, how does she look in a USA jersey? Like, and what does this kind of joy potentially look like to be the best, but also enjoy it otherwise? Like, you can be winning and not having fun. Like, we all. We've all. A lot of us have been on those kind of teams. Or, like, you're winning, but you're like, that was just not fun at all. Right. It was work, I think. Yeah. It was like. So I think bringing back the joy to making it to that high of a level is something that I'm looking forward to with this new wave.
- [47:07]
A
Yeah. And I think the. The injection of new talent with the veterans that we've already seen, the new talent that we've also seen, like, Paige and Caitlyn were really fun to watch. Angel, of course, being included in that as well. Like, yeah, yeah.
- [47:23]
B
A plethora of point guards. Like, I look at. I'm just like, oh, my God, look at all these. Yeah. And like. And then thinking about who's vying for those spots, like, we could do a whole episode on that of a dragon.
- [47:32]
A
Like, ooh, that will be. That will be a huge conversation, especially when it comes to the bigs. Cause remember, those are the superstars right now, and they were not even in this tournament. So, alas, as I mentioned, I could talk forever, but that's why this is just one more thing presented by Sam's Club. Now that is going to be a wrap for today. Don't worry, y'. All. We have not forgotten about March Madness. Make sure to catch Chantel and Sabrina tomorrow. I'm sure they're going to also be talking cba, but they're definitely gonna get you into what you should be looking out for in the first and second rounds of the tournament. Remember, that first four are actually taking place on the 18th and the 19th. So by the time you're listening to this, there's been games last night and then there's also gonna be games tonight. So make sure you are locked in. You know exactly where you're supposed to go. And remember that now we are somewhere you need to be locked into. Okay? We're gonna drop shows on every Tuesday, Thursday and Friday up to three times a week. Lastly, make sure you are filling out your bracket. On the Athletic, we have the interactive bracket that is live. Fill yours out, see how you fare against the expert, our very own Chantelle Jennings. You can find the link in our show notes where you can also, as you're headed down there, there's a like button. Don't, don't skip past that. Hit that like button. Make sure you're subscribed. Make sure you are sending those five star ratings wherever you're listening as well. Follow our show and drop us a comment. Give us, you know, the ratings we want to hear from you all. Now on behalf of the Athletics, Sabrina Merchant, Lajah Clarendon, I'm Zena Kada thanking you for listening and we'll see you next time. No off season is hosted by Zena Kada with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant and Laja Clarendon. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producer is Andrea B. Scott. Monica Compton is our video editor and Charles Childers is our social video editor. Our theme music is by Marcus Paul. Shannon Ryan is managing editor of women's basketball at the Athletic. Tim McMaster is our director of operations and Jessie Burton is global head of Ceres.