WNBA Award Debates

Summary

WNBA Award Debates No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show Release Date: September 4, 2024

In this episode of No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show, hosts Zena Caida, Sabrina Merchant, and Ben Pickman engage in an in-depth discussion about the upcoming WNBA awards as the regular season approaches its final stretch. The conversation delves into six key awards: Rookie of the Year, Most Improved Player, Defensive Player of the Year, Sixth Woman of the Year, Coach of the Year, and MVP. The hosts analyze contenders, share expert opinions, and provide insights into the voting process.

Rookie of the Year: Caitlin Clark vs. Angel Reese

The debate for Rookie of the Year centers primarily around Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese, with Rekia Jackson also emerging as a strong contender. Ben Pickman highlights the unprecedented nature of the Clark-Reese rivalry, stating, “there just hasn’t been anything like Caitlin versus Angel in WNBA lore” (18:10). Sabrina Merchant adds historical context, noting that past races were rarely this close, making the current competition uniquely intense. Both hosts ultimately lean towards Caitlin Clark due to her exceptional individual performance and significant impact on her team's success. Zena Caida concurs, emphasizing Clark's dominant role in Indiana’s victories, including a standout game where Clark scored decisively against the Chicago Sky (24:16).

Most Improved Player: A Multifaceted Race

The Most Improved Player (MIP) award sparks a lively debate with several players in contention, including Alanna Smith, D.J. Carrington, Kennedy Carter, Sabrina Yaneski, and Sabrina Unescu. Sabrina Merchant presents Alanna Smith as a top candidate, highlighting her improved three-point shooting and defensive prowess: “one of the big changes with her year over year is her three-point shooting… she is a big part of Minnesota’s success” (39:41). Ben Pickman echoes these sentiments, praising Smith’s rim protection and overall defensive impact. Meanwhile, D.J. Carrington's shift from a reserve to a starter role is discussed, though concerns about her offensive efficiency persist. The conversation also touches on Kennedy Carter’s MVP-like performance, questioning whether her return from a limited previous season qualifies her as the most improved. Ultimately, the hosts recognize the complexity of the MIP race, with no clear front-runner emerging (46:42).

Defensive Player of the Year: Evaluating Impact

Defensive Player of the Year is another challenging category, with players like Stewie, Nafeesa Collier, Melissa Thomas, Essie Magmagore, Alyssa Thomas, and Asia Wilson under consideration. Sabrina Merchant leans towards Nafeesa Collier, praising her versatility and impact on both ends of the court: “she can switch onto any guard and play one through five” (54:21). Zena Caida underscores Collier’s comprehensive defensive skills, especially highlighted during the Olympics, making her a standout candidate. Ben Pickman adds that while Asia Wilson's defensive metrics are impressive, her team’s overall performance somewhat diminishes her candidacy. The hosts acknowledge the difficulty in quantifying defensive impact, especially for guards versus post players, but ultimately favor Collier for her multifaceted defensive contributions.

Sixth Woman of the Year: Leonie Feebish and Tiffany Hayes

The discussion on Sixth Woman of the Year features Leonie Feebish and Tiffany Hayes as prominent candidates. Sabrina Merchant initially considers Feebish for her defensive impact and offensive contributions off the bench. However, Ben Pickman points out Feebish’s increasing role as a starter, which may disqualify her from being a traditional sixth woman. Instead, Hayes emerges as a strong nominee due to her consistent performances and versatility: “she gives us made playmaking… she is a consistent contributor off the bench” (60:48). Zena Caida appreciates Hayes’s dual impact on offense and defense, making her a valuable asset in a reserve role. The hosts agree that while Feebish has had a noteworthy season, Hayes better fits the award’s criteria of significant contributions from the bench.

Coach of the Year: Cheryl Reeve Takes the Lead

Cheryl Reeve of the Minnesota Lynx is the leading candidate for Coach of the Year, praised for exceeding expectations and optimizing her team's performance. Ben Pickman asserts, “Cheryl Reeve is going to win Coach of the Year,” highlighting her ability to transform the Lynx from a ninth-place team to one of the league’s top contenders (66:11). Sabrina Merchant supports Reeve’s candidacy by acknowledging her strategic prowess in integrating key players like Courtney Williams and Nafisa Collier, which has significantly elevated the team's defense and offense. Zena Caida echoes this sentiment, emphasizing Reeve’s outstanding coaching achievements and her role in Minnesota’s defensive and offensive improvements. The consensus among the hosts firmly places Cheryl Reeve at the forefront of the Coach of the Year race.

MVP: Asia Wilson and Nafisa Collier in the Spotlight

The MVP race is dominated by Asia Wilson and Nafisa Collier, with Zena Caida firmly supporting Wilson due to her extraordinary individual statistics and overall impact. Ben Pickman discusses Wilson’s unparalleled performance, noting her “box score stats are absolutely insane,” including record-breaking rebounds and points (72:06). Sabrina Merchant underscores Wilson’s versatility and offensive dominance, saying, “she is going to score with ease every single time” (73:54). While Collier is recognized for her significant contributions and defensive prowess, Wilson’s consistent top-tier performances and ability to carry her team make her the favored MVP candidate. The hosts agree that Wilson’s exceptional season merits the MVP title, acknowledging Collier as a strong contender but ultimately favoring Wilson’s unmatched individual achievements.

Conclusion

The episode concludes with the hosts reflecting on the heightened level of competition and the increasing difficulty of making award decisions as the WNBA continues to grow in talent and competitiveness. Zena Caida emphasizes the importance of these discussions in appreciating the league’s evolving landscape, while Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman express their enthusiasm for the ongoing debates and upcoming awards. The conversation underscores the depth of talent in the WNBA and the rigorous analysis required to determine award recipients, setting the stage for an exciting conclusion to the regular season.

Notable Quotes:

• “There just hasn’t been anything like Caitlin versus Angel in WNBA lore.” — Ben Pickman (18:10)
• “She is a big part of Minnesota’s success.” — Sabrina Merchant (39:41)
• “Cheryl Reeve is going to win Coach of the Year.” — Ben Pickman (66:11)
• “She is going to score with ease every single time.” — Sabrina Merchant (73:54)

This comprehensive debate highlights the depth of talent in the WNBA and the nuanced criteria voters consider when determining award winners. As the regular season nears its end, these discussions provide valuable insights for fans and analysts alike, enriching the overall appreciation of women's basketball.

Transcript

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[Zena Caida]

For the athletic I'm Zena Caida and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball show presented by AT&T. What's up everyone? Welcome back to the Athletic Women's Basketball show where we are here to talk all things women's hoops. As some of you know, as some of you may not know, this is a space where if you're a die hard fan that eats, sleeps and breathes the Game, you are in the right place. If you're someone that knows nothing about what's going on in the W and you're just in the Twitterverse and trying to figure out why is everyone going crazy, you're in the right place. This is the Athletic women's basketball show, and we want to make sure that you subscribe to this pod so you don't miss out on all of the breakdowns, all of the analysis, all of the fun conversations that we are having here about women's hoops. And of course, subscribe to the Athletic, because that's where we break it down even further. We being our writers, not me, but our writers. So you don't want to miss out on that amazing breakdown, too. I am joined today by both Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. This is a nice little treat. Ben, welcome back. We haven't had you in a minute. Men, men, you've been missed. But let's break down what we're going to cover today because we need both of you for this. It's going to be an awards discussion. All right, folks, regular season is about to wind down. There's just about, like, three weeks left of regular season, and at the end of that, that is when WNBA awards come out. So today I want to break down where the races right now for several of these awards. All six, we're going to talk about Ro, Rookie of the Year. Of course, we know that's a big one. Most improved player, defensive player of the year, sixth woman of the year, Coach of the year, and leaving MVP for last. So you don't want to go anywhere on this pod. We're going to cover it all, and I want to get some background knowledge first and foremost. For those of us that still are learning the awards process have only seen a lot of conversation maybe around mvp, around Rookie of the Year. How does it all break down? So we'll make sure we. We explain that first. And then I just want to know what Sabrina and Ben think, because let's just be real. They're the experts here, not I. Alrighty. First and foremost, let's break it down. Ben, Sabrina, do you both receive votes for the WNBA Awards?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, I think we both do.

[Zena Caida]

And how long have you guys been voting for these WNBA awards?

[Sabrina Merchant]

For me, it's been a few years now. I want to say three or four years, but honestly, I couldn't tell you an exact answer. Zena.

[Ben Pickman]

This is my third year getting a vote.

[Zena Caida]

Third year getting a vote. Alrighty, how many people get to vote?

[Ben Pickman]

So I don't think there's a set number any year. I think the WNBA PR team just sort of canvases people who cover the league at a pretty deep level or local beat writers who are pretty, you know, set in with their team and like get to see other teams as a result of that. But it kind of varies from year to year. Like I know the first year I voted There were like 57 voters and it's like, you know, gone up and down since. But it's somewhere in that like 40 to 60 pool, I think, over the last five or so years.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah. And I would just add it is a mix of local and national, both writers and broadcasters too. And it is an opt in process. So no one is forced to have a ballot. You're kind of asked and can say no. And some people do say no. And unlike in the NBA where voting is public, currently in the WNBA voting results are not. So both the total pool of who is actually voting and then who each person voted for. You have the option to disclose your voting if you so choose. But you don't have to by any means necessary.

[Zena Caida]

So, okay, so voting is anonymous for the most part. And do you all, as voters get to see the other votes? Like it's anonymous to the public or it's anonymous to everyone?

[Ben Pickman]

It's anonymous to everyone. The only ballot you know is the.

[Sabrina Merchant]

One that you submit, or in this case Sabrina's ballot. Yeah, yeah. I mean like Sabrina and I will talk about, you know, after we submit or we'll do this pod and not get a sense for her ballot. So, you know, I guess that's the preview, but that's it.

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, there's nothing that prevents you from publicizing your ballot. Like obviously a lot of writers like to make their choices public for, you know, accountability, content, like discussion, all of that. I think it's a good exercise for us in particular to talk about it, whether it's on this forum or in our debate forum. But you absolutely can make your votes public. You just don't have to.

[Zena Caida]

Now I am going to advocate for making votes public because to this day we still don't know who voted Asia Wilson, fourth place for MVP last year. And it is still on many people's minds. We'll keep that conversation for the MVP conversation. All right, so this is very helpful. I now know that I'm waiting on my invite to vote in the WNBA Awards. That's okay though. For now I'm going to stay with Ben and Sabrina to help me get the insight on what's going on in this awards landscape. So when do ballots actually come out? Like, where do you get to start voting?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, so balloting will start in just over a week's time, I think around September 12, and it will go till September 20, which is the final day of the regular season.

[Ben Pickman]

It's actually the day after the regular season ends.

[Zena Caida]

Perfect. Only the regular season is considered. And is there any difference with voting with this being an Olympic year?

[Sabrina Merchant]

No, I mean, we haven't actually received the ballots yet, so maybe there are some hidden clause that we are unaware of, but. No, there should. I think there's an expectation that nothing will be different and that the language on the literal ballots themselves of any of the criteria. And spoiler alert, we get very little guidance on any of these awards. But I don't think there will be any kind of guidance provided even with it being an Olympic year. Xena.

[Zena Caida]

Okay, cool. So let's get a little bit more personal. Ben, I'll start with you. When you get your ballot and you start making your decision, what goes into it for you?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Well, first, it is a very nerve wracking process, honestly. You know, it's one that like I try and take pretty seriously, as I hope every voter does, because these are significant awards. These are people's careers, their resumes, their, you know, the lines that we say if they should make the hall of fame or not. You know, for some players there might be financial implications, whether that's with their own contract. But you know, in the case of maybe a shoe deal, right, like, like some shoe deals might say, if you make an all W team, you are entitled to X amount of money with a brand. So that's the kind of thing that happens. Certainly the NBA has a lot of controversy around that. And all NBA teams, for me, I mean it's just like diving into all different kinds of research. Whether that's watching games back, whether that's looking up different statistics and databases and different numbers for some awards over others. And I think we'll get into that in this conversation. It involves talking to people and just like picking the brains of people who watch games or coaches, not necessarily to just like check a box or say that like 12 people said this person, so I must say this person. But to see what other really smart people whose opinions I value say, you know, I think all that goes into it, like there's no, it's not, it really is not a science. And I think different voters have different criteria for every award. And I think some years it changes. And that's what makes the process really hard, but it is deeply personal of how someone goes about making their decisions.

[Zena Caida]

I respect that. And what about you, Sabrina?

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, I actually try to avoid as many outside opinions as possible when I'm making these decisions. Like Ben, I rewatch a lot of games. I'm always taking notes on games. Ben can attest to the fact that my notes are kind of ridiculous. For a lot of games, there's way too much detail, but it helps me in terms of looking back and trying to remember what happened. I also love looking at different statistical databases, whether that's synergy or her hoop stats. I love the, you know, basketball reference compare features like, those are all super helpful. But yeah, especially at this time of the year. Basically. Ever since I got the email asking if I, you know, wanted to be part of the voting pool again, I have tried to stay out of the conversation of what people think for MVP and all of the other awards because I don't want any sort of consensus to try to influence my thinking. Maybe that's to its detriment because over the last two years, I think I've maybe hit on like five of the 12, you know, that actually won these awards that I voted on, which I don't think is a bad thing. I put a lot of thought into who I select. And like Ben said, it's something I take very seriously because of the financial incentives and what it means for their resumes and their, like, the way their careers are viewed holistically. But I do think that I really want it to be just like, this is my ballot, right. I'm not reflecting anybody else. I am just. I spend a ton of time watching and thinking about the wnba and I think I'm qualified to make these decisions. And so I try to keep it as isolated as possible without letting myself be influenced by whatever is going on in the discourse. Other than obviously when I talk to Ben all the time about this stuff.

[Zena Caida]

Oh, of course. And I can't imagine how many people are trying to influence you. Right. Whether it's you just reading content that people are making their case for it, but also teams, because I understand that teams can send out care packages or different things that might keep you keep their player front of mind, let's say. Is that right?

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, teams definitely send out things to advocate for their players, whether that's, you know, all rookie teams or MVP or all w. Just any sort of award they think their players might be eligible for. And, you know, some teams put more effort into that process. Others maybe just send out like a PDF with some statistics of like, hey, this is who you should consider. But yeah, this is definitely like award races and all. Like, all of those for your consideration. Billboards that you see around, you know, like me season and Oscar season in Los Angeles. Like, that's. That's what happens here at the end of the WNBA season. PR teams are definitely getting their work in in terms of, you know, keeping their players top of mind.

[Zena Caida]

It would be so fascinating to hear or read a poll from the anonymous voters to say, like, one question, how or did a care package from a team actually influence a vote? I would be so fascinated because I feel like the answer is no. But you never know. You never know. Somebody might be like, you know what? Someone sent me a doll of Briana Stewart and that's why I voted Asia Wilson fourth place for MVP last year. I'm not over it, folks.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I really hope that's not the reason that someone might have made that vote.

[Zena Caida]

Absolutely not. But that's the only thing I can come to mind for that. What in the world. Anyways, let's keep it moving. All right, it's time to get this conversation started. We're going to start out with the most ridiculously debated award of all of them. I mean, Ben mentioned it's a personal experience to vote on it. Well, it's been real personal talking about it in the discourse around Brown, the Rookie of the Year award, of course, the note, the top two players involved Caitlin Clark, Angel Reese. And it seems as if this discourse has not stopped. It didn't have Rookie of the Year stamped on top of it, but it definitely had these two pitted up against one another ever since their teams met up in the NCAA tournament two years ago and then kept going into this year. And now here we are into the Rookie of the Year in the wnba and this tandem continues to capture our attention. Now, under the Rookie of the Year banner, there's others that are making some cases for it. Of course. Rekia Jackson has been on a scoring spree since the second half of the WNBA season. I would say those are probably the three in my top for the conversation. But I want to open it up to Ben and Sabrina first with this Rookie of the Year conversation. Has there ever been another year that you can think of that it's been this closely debated?

[Ben Pickman]

I mean, I've only voted for, like I said, this is my third year. So last year, I believe, was Anonymous for Aaliyah Boston. Not Anonymous, unanimous for Aaliyah Boston. And the year before, Ryan Howard got all but three first Place votes for rookie of the Year. So it wasn't exactly hotly contested. Fun fact. I was one of those three votes. But I don't believe there has been anything quite like Caitlin versus Angel in terms of Rookie of the year voting. Mostly because there just hasn't been anything like Caitlyn versus Angel in WNBA lore.

[Zena Caida]

Right.

[Ben Pickman]

Just the rivalry between these two dating back to college, the fan bases, the energy, you know, around both of them, it's just unlike anything we've seen at a league level. So obviously from a voting perspective, I think it's similar.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Just to add, I mean, as Sabrina said, it's rarely a contested award. You know, I think we did the research, Sabrina and I, back in July, and that over the last 10 years, it's only even been somewhat contested, like somewhat close three times. In 2014, Chanay Gurumike received 23 votes while Odyssey Sims got 12. So that's somewhat close, I guess. In 2015, Jewel Lloyd had 21 votes while Kia Stokes had 16. And in 2019, Nafisa Collier had 29 votes and Arike Gumbawale had 14. So that's really like those are the most closely contested races over the last 10 or so years. And even those are not like, you know, that's not a one or two vote margin in any of those cases. So oftentimes it is rarely that close of a race. And even in 2013, Sabrina made this great point back in July, which was the three to see rookie class of Brittney Griner, Elena Delladon and Skyler. Elena Daladon was the unanimous rookie of the year last year. And obviously that's a really good rookie class. But, you know, still, EDD received all the votes, so make of that what you will.

[Ben Pickman]

Wow.

[Zena Caida]

And that's. I mean, that was an unbelievable class for her to go unanimous. So this is very different. We are in new territory here of just how closely this has been discussed. And Sabrina, I'm happy that you mentioned, you know, the fan bases because I feel as if that has really influenced this conversation around Rookie of the Year in the terms of just, how dare I say it, toxic. Even this conversation has devolved into sometimes, but also how much it's getting beyond the bounds of basketball. So here I want to stay within the bounds of basketball. When you all are looking at this rookie of the year conversation and I know Sabrina, you mentioned you're not looking so much into what others are saying, trying to focus in on what the players have done from your perspective, what are the things that you're evaluating and you're looking for when you think about a rookie of the year winner.

[Ben Pickman]

So with rookie of the Year I try not to focus so much on team success because most of them are drafted into situations that are not exactly conducive to winning right away, especially if you're on a lottery team. Like, you know, we're not probably going to talk about Rekia Jackson a ton, but the Sparks like don't really have any guards with any perimeter scoring threats who can like get her the ball and she has to do a lot of self creation. So it's a, it's a tougher situation for her offensively than it is, you know, for Caitlin or Angel where they have, you know, better teammates around. So I try to focus more on just like individual impact and if it's like a tiebreaker then kind of like who I think is just going to be the better player going forward. But I haven't really had to get to that point at it's just who do I think had like the better individual season.

[Zena Caida]

That's really interesting. I think a lot of people have considered team success in particularly looking at Caitlin Clark, Angel Reese, who's going to be able to make their team get into the playoffs, who's getting more wins overall. And I never really considered the fact that some of these, you know, a lot of these players are coming into situations in which their teams aren't expected to immediately succeed. So I like that perspective of just like individual impact. What about you, Ben? How do you look at evaluating the rookie of the year choice and making sure that it's sticking within the bounds of basketball?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, pretty similarly. I mean watching things going through the research as we talked about, I mean I think it is, you know, at times of course it is tough to divorce the individual from the team like entirely just because this is basketball and it is a team game. And so, you know, as we record this, it is hard to, to separate the fact that Indiana is eight and two over its last 10 games and currently, you know, the six seed and playing really, really well where Chicago is two and eight over their last 10 and have lost six in a row. And like obviously that's not all because of Caitlin Clark and that's not all because of Angel Reese. And like there are obviously teams and coaches and ecosystems around them that contribute to the winning in the case of Indiana and the recent struggle of the recent spell of losing, the recent spell of losing in the case of the Chicago Sky. Nevertheless, like I try like Sabrina not to dwell too much on that. But you know, in the case of Caitlin, say like so much of their winning is because of how great she has playing and so that obviously does not hurt her candidacy at all. Right. Like that is something that is in her favor. I don't like truly diminish Rhys's case, for instance, because of the spell that much. But you know, I do think it's like another factor that kind of weaves in because this is a team game and it's really, really hard to take the player out of the team.

[Zena Caida]

Okay, so with that said, now that we got a little bit of background of how you're looking at this, where do you both stand? Sabrina, I'll start with you. Rookie of the year to you is who.

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, right now it's Caitlin Clark. I would have a hard time imagining that's going to change over the remaining two weeks of the regular season. Although it has changed for me over the course of the regular season. Like there have been points where I thought it was Angel. I even voted for angel during the midse season power pole that the AP had. So it's been an evolving process. But just the numbers she's putting up, absolutely insane. Like she's, you know, on pace to break the WNBA single season assist record. She's obviously broken all of these three pointer and assist records for rookies. The offense that Indiana's putting up is remarkable. The way that Kelsey Mitchell has been unleashed, obviously she's been an all star before Caitlyn got there, but the efficiency hasn't really ever been at this level without, you know, Caitlyn creating the shots for her. The way Indiana is playing, I think Clark's fingerprints are just all over that. The one thing that like, you know, gives me a little pause in Angel Reese discussion is that advanced stats like still favor angel because of just how bad Indiana was for the first 11 games of the season. But you know, watching the games, looking at the way the Fever play and how much it's just a result of Caitlin's style of basketball and like how much fun the team is having, how much success the team is having, I think it's, I think it's pretty clearly Clark at this point.

[Zena Caida]

What about you, Ben?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, I would agree with Caitlin Clark being my vote at this point. I mean, I think I had leaned Rhys really, really slightly like Sabrina towards the midway point and wrote that in our debate. And you know, Rhys obviously came in, made such a huge impact breaking the double double record, especially over her first 20, 22 games. Like she was the more consistent of the two rookies, you know, Indiana really struggled getting off to that one and eight start. And then, you know, the first 11 games were, you know, really did weigh on them and the fatigue was there. You could see it in Clark, you could see it in the pieces around her. But over the last 30 games especially, or what will be 30 games, like, the level she has gone to is just immense and her production is undeniable. And Angel Reese has been great too. Like, she obviously just set the all time, you know, single season rebounding record and has broken all these rebounding marks. And you know, Chicago's hanging in the playoff race in large part. She's played a big reason why Camila Cardoza obviously playing well of late two and there's some other pieces on Chicago who have play pretty well. But I mean, Clark I think is playing at a, all WNBA level. Like whether that's first team or second team. I think that's a really interesting debate that I don't think Sabrina and I are ready to have on this podcast or just yet. But you know, she's playing at that level right now and that is a big credit towards her and I think that is why we both kind of lean there with, you know, eight or nine games left in the season.

[Zena Caida]

Well, and don't worry folks, the all WNBA conversation will be coming. But I think that you both make a really great point. Sabrina, I love that you said, you know, Caitlyn's fingerprints are all over the success that Indiana's having right now. And it's hard in the conversation between Angel Reese and Caitlin Clark because people will say, well, of course her fingerprints are all over it. She's the point guard. She literally has the ball in her hand to be able to facilitate all of that. But then I look at a team like the Aces and I look at how Asia Wilson has her fingerprints all over the success of the Aces. And she's not a point guard, she's not the person bringing the ball up the court yet she is having a immediate impact in how they come back from deficits, how they unleash their, their offense, their transition game. And so I often look at that as an example of how Angel Reese, if her game continues to develop, particularly on the offensive side, she can become a post player with impact all over the game. But I feel, I still think it's a, it's a shortcoming of hers right now that she doesn't have that sort of impact, that offensive impact that you could just give her the ball and it changes the course of the game. So I am also a Caitlin Clark Rookie of the Year. I'm not a voter, but if I had a vote, that's where I'd go. And I do appreciate both of you, your, your breakdown of just how Caitlin Clark's impact In these last 30 games of the season has just been so dominant. I mean, you can't deny it. And this past game with Indiana Fever in the Chicago sky beating Chicago Sky 100-81 and Caitlin Clark going off in that game was a determining factor for me of like, okay, this, this is another example here of Caitlin Clark just having the dominance on her team and being able to impact their winning. Okay, so it looks like we didn't have much debate on Rookie of the year right now. Caitlin Clark at the Athletic. That's what we're thinking of. Alrighty, let's move on to some other conversations that might be a little bit more debated. Next up, Most Improved. Mine has not changed since the beginning of the season. I'll say there were some people that came to mind that I'll talk about after I let Ben and Sabrina discuss their choices. First up though, Ben, Sabrina. How do you all look at most improved player? Sabrina, I'll let you go first for Most Improved.

[Ben Pickman]

I just like to see if there is a specific skill that they got better at. You know, I try not to just make it like, did they get to play more minutes? Because then obviously their stats are going to improve across the board. With one caveat where like, if you're a bench player because you can't stop fouling and you, you reign in the fouls and now you're able to be a starter because like you can actually stay on the court for more minutes. I think that is a visible improvement of a skill. But I, I just like to think of like, is there something that your game definitively improved at? Like last year I know Ben and I had this conversation for me was Jordan Canada because I just thought her shooting completely changed the way teams had to guard her. Like she was all of a sudden like a league average, almost three point shooter. And that opened up her drive game more that, you know, changed the way that teams had to cover her on the perimeter. So like that was what stood out to me in that particular case.

[Zena Caida]

What about you, Ben?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, I mean, for me, honestly, like this is the award I was most excited to talk with Sabrina about and knew about Xena because it is the one that I think I like kind of disagree from the norm and I just think like it is really up for debate about who should be the most improved player. I think, like, a lot of different voters have different criteria on this. I think last year I voted for Alanna Smith. She finished third, and I was a little confused as to why she didn't win the award, if I'm being honest with you. And spoiler alert, I like her case again, a lot this year, though. I'm not gonna say she's necessarily my pick, but I just think there's, like, so many different ways you can go. And I like Sabrina. Like, you know, you have the reserve who's now starting player. You potentially might have a starter who becomes an all Star. You might have an all star who becomes, you know, even greater as a superstar. You might have someone who's out of the league, like, who's now suddenly making an impact. Like, I think there's so many different kinds of players who all you can make, like, really convincing arguments for, for this award that it's always really interesting to hear what different people think about different candidates. So I'm excited to dive into this part of the conversation.

[Zena Caida]

If you guys could see me behind this mic, I'm, like, dancing, like. Like, Ben is just spitting right now behind the mic. Because I love what you're saying, and I feel it's like, as he listed all the different categories of types of players, you're literally listing the types of players that I think are in this list of potential MIP candidates. I don't want to spoil it, though. I don't want to spoil it. I want to see where you guys think, because we actually have not you. Ben, Sabrina may have talked about this, but we, as a.

[Sabrina Merchant]

No, we have not. We have not talked about it.

[Ben Pickman]

We did it for this conversation. Yeah.

[Zena Caida]

This is fun. Okay. All right, all right, all right, all right, all right. So, Ben, you know what? I let Sabrina go first last time. Ben, you tell me who are in your top three, and then who, like, in no order, and then choose the person.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Here are my top four that I'm thinking of. Alana Smith of the Minnesota Lynx.

[Zena Caida]

Yes. Yes.

[Ben Pickman]

Agreed.

[Sabrina Merchant]

D.J. carrington of the Connecticut Sun.

[Zena Caida]

Agreed.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Kennedy Carter of the Chicago sky and Sabrina Yaneski of the New York Liberty.

[Zena Caida]

Oh, yes. Yes. Go ahead, make your case. I'm sorry. I was not expecting that one, but that's a really great one. I appreciate you bringing that up. Let's go dive in.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah. I mean, I'll maybe make throughout different cases for each player, and maybe we could respond and see what people think. I'm gonna Just read two stat lines. Let's do this as a game for two players. And this is a player that people really like. Stat line A is 17.4 points per game, 47.3 shooting from the field, 37.5 from 3, 14 shots and 25.4 minutes. Okay, so that's stat line A, statline B, 17.2 points, 50% shooting, 27% from 3. 14.4 shots and 25.1 minutes. Okay, any guesses on stat line A and stat line B of who that might be?

[Ben Pickman]

I'm pretty sure I just looked this up. I'm going to withhold for a second.

[Zena Caida]

Exit yourself. Okay, this is on me. Great. That first one, I mean, 47 and 37. Is that Sabrina?

[Sabrina Merchant]

So. No, they're actually Kennedy Carter.

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah.

[Sabrina Merchant]

There's different times in her career. So Kennedy Carter in 2020 with the Atlanta Dream. It was a trick. So I appreciate you falling forward at Xena. This was good audience. In 2020, Kennedy Carter averaged slightly more points. Her shooting percentage was almost identical. Her three point percentage was better. She averaged more assists per game, and she played around the same minutes as she is doing this year. And I say that because Kennedy Carter, seemingly on the interwebs, seems to be like the clear runaway favorite for this award. And I don't necessarily agree with that. She's obviously had a great year and she's so, so important to why Chicago has had the impact that she's had. But if we're just talking about most improved, I'm like, not 100% sure that she is the most improved player in the league. She just was not in the league last year. Right. And I kind of throw out those two stat lines because in 2020, as a rookie, she was super, super impactful in the same way. And that's not to say she hasn't gotten better. But like, for me, I wrestle with this fact that just because somebody did not play an entire season, like, we just don't have the same reference point for how good she actually was and how, like, whether she was in the league or not, I don't think necessarily came down to how skilled or talented she was. Right. And so to me, like, that's why the case with Carter is so difficult. And would it shock me if she won the award? No, absolutely not. But, like, to just say she's out of the league to now being a really good player, I don't know if that's like enough, you know, to just get the award knowing that she has had a ton of success or you know, she had a lot of success with Atlanta a couple years back as a rookie. And so, you know, I guess. Sabrina, what do you think of the Carter game I just threw out and her case overall?

[Ben Pickman]

Well, considering I knew the numbers you threw out, I had a similar thought process as I was, you know, considering Kennedy Carter's candidacy. As I mentioned, I like to think about, like, improvement in a specific tangible skill. And to me, attitude is not something I feel comfortable measuring for most improved player. So the fact that Kennedy Carter has made herself into a player who, like Chicago wants to have on their roster and they want to have her as part of their team culture, that's great for Kennedy Carter and the arc of her career. It's not something that I'm thinking about for most improved player, though. Her ability to submit herself to the will of the team, that's just not what I'm considering for improvement. Mostly because it's so nebulous and I just don't have the wisdom to comment on that. And like Ben said, she's been this player before. You know, like, as a rookie, admittedly, the bubble stats are like a little bit skewed because the offensive environment was a little bit better in the bubble. But to be so similar to what she was as a rookie just makes me think that, like, the skill has been there all the time. It's just a matter of when she and a coach were going to see eye to eye and, like, allow her to play to that level again. So I'm with Ben. Kennedy was on my list, but I'm not sure that she's my favorite at this point just because, again, we've seen this particular level of production from her before.

[Zena Caida]

It's almost as if giving her the MIP would kind of put some disrespect on her rookie season. Like, it would kind of overshadow the fact that, no, she's always been this good. She just wasn't in the league last year. Ben, thank you for bringing out those stats because I. I'm not going to say, you know, Kennedy Carter was not my runaway favorite. She definitely is on my list. I love watching her play. I love how the team around, like, she has rallied the team in Chicago. I think that they, they really play better when she's better. Right. She's kind of like the player that has her fingerprints all over Chicago success. So I appreciate you giving me perspective on Kennedy Carter. Now let's keep going to Alanna and Sabrina and Dijonay Carrington.

[Sabrina Merchant]

I mean, do you want to throw out the Carrington case. I mean, for me, Carrington is the case of someone who went from a reserve. Last year, she averaged just 17 minutes per game, and now suddenly, she has started 31 games this year, and she's playing 30 minutes. And what makes, you know, her candidacy tough, I mean, both, like, good and also tough to evaluate, is how much of that is because she is a starter. Like, and how much of it is. And how much of it is because she's markedly better than she was in the past. Like, she is undoubtedly a really impactful player for the Connecticut sun on both ends of the floor. She's been really important to their success this year. But, like, if we want to throw some Numbers Again, her per 36 offensive numbers are actually down from 2023 to 2024. Like, per 36, she would have averaged more points last year, more rebounds and more assists per game than she is right now. Per 36 minutes, her minutes have nearly doubled. And so, like, that's a huge credit to her. But I guess I'm not, like, fully leaning her way also because her shooting percentage is slightly worse from the field than from three. And, like, I think her candidacy is built on opportunity. And, you know, I. I kind of like what Sabrina is saying. The, like, one skill development. And I think it's tough when, like, she's just playing more minutes. Like, it's just tough to evaluate. So I'm not leaning her way either right now.

[Ben Pickman]

Carrington wasn't even on my short list just because what Ben mentioned. Like, I think offensively she just hasn't gotten better at all. And defensively, we saw this player last year. Just the fact that Tiffany Hayes and Atisha Hydman are no longer on the team is why she's getting all these minutes. And I always thought that Carrington was the best perimeter stopper on Connecticut's perimeter rotation. And just for whatever reason, she wasn't getting the opportunity to play as many minutes as the others. And, you know, I alluded to the foul thing earlier. She is better about fouling. Like, she's fouling a lot less this year than she did last year. But compared to the other cases that I, you know, will lay out, I just don't think Carringtons was as compelling as the other ones. Like, I think it's been a good season for her, but just offensively, I don't think she's improved her game, like, to any degree for this award. Not to say to any degree, but, like, the finishing around the room is still isn't good. Enough in the half court. Like, she still isn't a good enough shooter to, like, be what Connecticut needs. So that's why, like, I. I think it's been a good season for her overall, but I don't think that she's most improved compared to what we've seen from other players.

[Zena Caida]

See, this is why we talk to the experts, folks, because I'm not gonna lie. Dijonay Carrington has been my runaway favorite for MIP all season long, particularly for what we're talking about in terms of her ability to stay on the floor, becoming a starter, being able to still be that immense defensive presence and be responsible enough in the offense as well to push the ball in transition and keep the energy up for the Connecticut Sun. Yet it's true, we probably could have seen this had she played more minutes last year. We probably could have seen the same level of impact in their run game, in their defense, on the perimeter, just their energy in general, had she just had more minutes. So. Whoo. Y'all gonna have me thinking about this at night? I don't know. Okay, let's. Let's keep it moving then. All right. Kennedy Dijonay, you're just like uprooting everything in my mind right now. Now, let's talk about Atlanta. And Atlanta's on my list too. And Sabrina.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah. So Alanna Smith, she might fall under Sabrina Merchant's rule here of the developing a skill that we have not seen before. And one of the big changes with her year over year is her three point shooting. She is up to a 40, almost 43% three point shooter from deep after being just a 30% three point shooter last year. I mean, Atlanta Smith right now is one of the two, maybe the anchor of, you know, basically the best defense in the league. Though statistically, New York, Connecticut and Minnesota are basically in a virtual tie as we record this podcast on Tuesday afternoon. And for me, like Atlanta Smith's journey over the last three years, narratively, is one of continued improvement. She was one of the last players on the Phoenix Mercury roster that made the Finals a couple years back. She went to Indy and got cut a few games into the season. They deemed that she was not good enough to play in the wnba. And I remember talking to her earlier this year and she said that she was kind of convinced that she was not going to play in the WNB game, NBA again, and that she didn't exactly want to. James Wade last year actually convinced her to come back to the league and said she would have a big role and that There was like a role for her in this league and she did and she came in after being cut mid season and showed a ton of improvement. Also had opportunity but like her game looked completely different than when she was cut at Indiana and thrived this year. I mean the three point shooting is way up and a big reason for Minnesota success. I think defensively she's as good as she's ever been. She's just playing such an important role like on Minnesota and Minnesota is one of the two or three best teams in the league. She is a big reason why her growth. She was on my all star ballot and I think there's a really strong case for her to be the most improved player in the league this year.

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, Elena Smith is also on my list. In addition to the three point improvement that Ben talked about, I think just her rim protection numbers, like her blocks are just improved significantly from last year too. And it isn't just because she's playing more minutes. Like she's playing about one and a half more minutes than she did last season when she was on Chicago. You know, Minnesota has this interesting front court where no one is like quite tall enough to be a center, but they all sort of like come together to form this room protection trio of Nafeesta Collier and Dorca off the bench. I guess Dork is tall enough, but Maisha Heinz Allen and Alanna Smith and Nafisa Collier, none of whom are really center sized. But they all sort of have to get the job done. And Alanna Smith's just been a really important part of that because of her ability to protect the paint. So those two skills were really important for me in terms of determining her most improved candidacy. And just one thing about her getting cut from Indiana. They determined that she wasn't good enough for a team that won five games that season. All right, Indiana went 5:31 and cut Atlanta Smith from that team. So it's not like it was, you know, the Las Vegas Aces deciding that Elena Smith wasn't going to make their roster. It was a 5 and 31 team believing that Elena Smith wasn't a WNBA player. And you look at her now potentially contributing for a team that could advance the WNBA finals and like that. Again, this is not a two year arc of improvement. But I think what Ben mentioned about her story, like that's like what you, what you hope for from any player that they continue working to the extent that Alanna Smith has.

[Zena Caida]

Wow, this is real. I mean I've seen Alanna Smith play and I do feel like not only the things that you've just, you have mentioned in terms of her defensive ability to make things very difficult for post players down low. And of course her three point shooting is up, her confidence is up. And I can imagine it comes from the fact that she's playing on a championship caliber team and directly impacting their winning versus what you're talking about. Sabrina having been cut from a team that went 5 and 31. Of course that can impact anyone's ability to think that they deserve to be or should be or have a future in the league. So. Oh man, y'all are making this real tough. Okay, let's keep going. Cause this is probably like, is it, is this gonna be our most debated comp? Like, I thought I was set. I don't know. I gotta still think I got to go do my research more. I'm, I'm still, I still love my dijonay Carrington pick, but that's an eye test. I needed to go, I need to go deeper on the stats. But last but not least, Sabrina Unescu, great choice by the way, because I think she's not only an eye test for me, she also. I've seen the statistics as well, Ben.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, I mean she is also very much on my ballot. And I should say, Sabrina, we don't know your ballot, so I wonder if we're missing anyone in this conversation. Maybe we are.

[Ben Pickman]

One more that I'm going to add to this. Yeah, great.

[Sabrina Merchant]

So I'll do the UNESCO case and it is both I think itest and what some of the numbers say. Like her game right now and she was an all WNBA player last year is very different even than what it was a season ago. She can obviously shoot it like the best players in the league, but her three point shooting numbers are actually slightly down than they were last year. And that is okay and not that important honestly to the case of why I think she has a strong case for most improved. But, but you just watch her. Like the physicality that she plays with right now is completely different than what she played with last year. Coaches have talked about it. Head coaches, assistants, opposing players, they all come in and they talk about how she's initiating contact way more. She's so much more aggressive. Like you look at her shots at the rim and runners this year. Almost 40% of her shots this year are either at the rim or runners. According to Synergy Sports, last year that number was lower than 30%. And she's shooting a pretty good percentage on all those attempts. And just the ability to go downhill and create off the dribble has, you know, been this element of her game that she worked all off season on. And it was something we did not see previously. And what it's done is frankly, Courtney Van Der Sloot like it is slashed into her role. Right? Like Courtney Van Der Sloot came to New York along with Brianna Stewart and John Quale Jones and they were this like new trio joining Sabrina Unescu. And Vandersloot was kind of the pure point guard who was going to initiate offense. Well, because Unescu is able to get downhill and break people down off the dribble. Like Vandersuit's numbers have dipped to below 25 minutes per game. And a big reason why is New York feels really comfortable having Sabrina Unescu just handle the basketball the whole time. Like she is the point guard and she is also the shooting guard and she can shoot the three like the best player in the league. And she can also get downhill like an elite player. And that was something else we did not see last year. So it is eye test. It is the numbers. You know, she falls in the case of like she was a star and now she is a superstar. She was an all W player and now she might be an all W first team guard in my opinion. Like she's gone up a level and it's really hard to weigh that against someone like Carrington or someone like Smith who you know, are players who don't have the same resume yet as Sabrina Unescu. But like she's different and her game is different and evolved and New York is the best team in the league. And so it's hard for me not to include her in this most improved player conversation and make a good case for her for all those reasons.

[Zena Caida]

I agree. I think my, my eyes were a little shut because of the accolades, because of the success you assume and you attribute her and kind of mesh her into the, the success of the entire team versus her individual aspects of growth. And I love this case. You're making Sabrina thoughts on that and then who's your last person on the list?

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, I have such a hard time with most improved because it's like does everything have to improve, improve or to can things go down, you know, with Sabrina.

[Zena Caida]

Right.

[Ben Pickman]

Her 3 point percentage is 10 percentage points worse than it was last year. Like that's not insignificant. You know, she basically went from the best highest following three point shooter season like we've ever seen in league history to league average. Right. And yeah, there have been, you know, improvements in other parts of her game. I just, I didn't know how to put it all together in my head. Like, if she's this much worse at one thing, but also better, all these other things, it was. It was tricky for me to figure that out and like, how much of it is context. Like Ben said, you know, she's playing more point guard as opposed to Sloot running the show. Like, does that change the way she's able to impact the game? I think she's an interesting candidate too. I just, again, I'm not at the point where I've like picked somebody yet. So it was really hard for me to put her ahead of anybody just based on the, you know, the varying ups and downs in her game. I just had one more candidate on my list and that was the Erica Hamby. She basically has gone from, you know, an All Star in Las Vegas, but as a sixth player. And now she is a number one option and getting guarded by the best player on opposing teams. More efficient than she ever has been in her career, putting up better numbers. Three point shooting again, another thing that hasn't really been a part of her game before. And it's just now she's like a pretty dead eye shooter from long range. The free throw shooting kind of sucks, which is a problem that we saw in 3x3 basketball, honestly, for dear Canby too. But just to go from a player who is like, you know, the fourth or fifth option when she was on the court for Las Vegas because she was coming off the bench, to now being the number one target on the scouting report and still performing better than she ever has in her career. Like, that role improvement to me was so impressive.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Honestly. I wish everyone on the show could just see Xena's reaction because she has just rolled her eyes and shaking her head because I think she's just like shook at that case, Sabrina. I mean, bravo. That was a great case. And Hamby is a great call. Like anyone who votes for Hamby, like you just mapped it out. It's a really good argument. You can see the improvement she has gone up. You know, you're talking about the All Star, All Star connection, but she's doing it in a totally different way with a different situation, with an evolved game, like very well could be the most improved player. It's why this award is really, really hard to determine because any of those players we mentioned, I think you can make a real case for y'all.

[Zena Caida]

My, my head is in my forehead because I'm like, how could I have forgotten about Tierra Gamby? I had her in the MVP conversation in my mind, so I just, like, forget. Why do you have her in the MVP conversation, Xena? Because she has improved. Oh, there's too many good players to talk about. This is hard. Do either of you have yours picked out yet?

[Ben Pickman]

Not yet.

[Zena Caida]

Okay, good. Cause I'm not there either. All right, we got to move on because we could. This could. This whole show could be mip. Wow, way to lay out those cases. And shame on me for forgetting to include Derick and Hamby in this conversation. Man, she has absolutely been on my radar as someone that's just been killing it. Okay, let's just. Let's. Let's keep it moving. That in the back of our heads. Maybe to some easier ones. I don't know. Defensive player of the year. I gotta pick in my mind. I gotta hear what y'all think. Actually, I got like. Jesus, I don't know. I've got like four now. There's just. There's just too many. Let's start. Sabrina, you got it this time. Defensive players of the year. Who's on your roster?

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, well, Ben mentioned this earlier that New York, Minnesota, Connecticut are basically, like, in a statistical heat for the best defense in the league. And I think about the most impactful players on each of their defenses, to my opinion, would be Stewie, Nafeesa Collier and Melissa Thomas. And so I have three names on my list right now, and those are the three names. And there's pros and cons for all of them. But I'm just going to start there. Like, that's my short list.

[Zena Caida]

I've got that short list. And I've got one more. I want to see if Ben has this person on their list as well.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, I mean, I would throw Essie Magmagore of the Seattle Storm on that list. I think Alanna Smith, I know we kind of mentioned in the Depot conversation with the most improved. I think she's on that list. And yeah, those. I mean, those are really the five I'm weighing. Asia Wilson also, you know, her metrics just jump off the page, though. Las Vegas defense has not been nearly as good as it has in the past. Like, I think it's hard to totally discount her. I mean, again, the numbers scream like, Asia Wilson. And she's obviously been a defensive player in the year in the past. So, you know, this is one Xena for me. Like, I know Sabrina said she tries not to pick people's brains, and I completely respect that. Like, Depot is one of the awards where I do try and like, you know, ask around a few people because I think for me, like it's an award that is really hard for me, the viewer to evaluate. And I watch a lot of basketball and I watch games back and I watch film and I'll look at these numbers and still there are things that, you know, coaches see, people who live it that like, I don't see. Right. And so I'm not necessarily asking like who they would pick first or overall, but like most impactful defender. Like last year, you know, Sabrina and I did this poll among GMs and it was like, you know, Brittany Sykes and Natasha Cloud were two people right up there as like guards who just make you rethink what you're doing on offense. Right. And so like, maybe that's the criteria or what that should be is like who, when you are playing them, makes you rethink entirely what you're doing. That's why Cloud, you know, she is up there and gets a lot of consideration for me too because I think she's still doing that on Phoenix, even though Phoenix's defense is not nearly as good as the other three that we mentioned at the top. So that's where this conversation is really, really hard. And Asia Wilson, you know, GMs did this survey at the start of the year and I think she was the candidate that they all viewed as the best defensive player in the year. So, you know, I don't really know what to do with that. It's just a really tough one to evaluate and I think it just kind of goes down to what you see and what you think in the end. And yeah, it's a toughie overall.

[Zena Caida]

It absolutely is difficult because there aren't the stats that you could use to evaluate this will always favor post players. Right. When you think about you want to include blocks. Right. And that's why I think Natasha Cloud and Brittany Sykes and Eric Thabeau had thoughts on this last year, you know, when his player wasn't involved in the, in the all defensive team. Like these stats are always going to be skewed towards the forwards and the post players. And that's part of why I have Nafisa Collier as my top choice. Because even though she's a post player, she is a post player or a forward that impacts guards and how they move. She can switch on to any guard and play one through five. We not have we not only seen this during the regular season, but she's all, I mean, hell, did you watch the Olympics, folks? I mean, Nafisa was everywhere. She was everywhere. So she's at the top of my list. I realized as you spoke, I guess I have five because I also have Ezzy Magbagor. I also have Alyssa Thomas. I also have Asia Wilson. I also have Alena Smith. Like, you know what I said at the top of the show. I would like to be a voter. I take it back. I would like to remain a fan because this is hard. These players absolutely fit the statistical mold of defensive players of the years in terms of their impact on the game statistically. But for me, each one of them passed the eye test. And this isn't just who's blocking shots or getting steals. This is who's in passing lanes. This is who is making people rethink their ability to come through the paint. This is difficult. Ben, Sabrina, do you have a clear favorite?

[Sabrina Merchant]

I don't really. I mean, I think I kind of lead into Fisa Collier right now, but it's a very soft lean. And I would just say in general, like, this is my call to the wnba. Like, this is one award in which we only are asked to submit one name for defensive player of the year. It's the kind of award that I think having to submit five names like we do for MVP would benefit from. You know, there are some other awards here, like we do the all defensive team. So in theory, like, we're rewarding defense all around. And so maybe if you're doing a top five, like that is your first team. Maybe I've just said the logic and that's why we don't have five names. But it's really hard to pick and narrow down a ballot. And I do think, like a first, second, third here, you know, does a good job of rewarding three different players. And, you know, maybe that is a good way to change things going forward.

[Zena Caida]

And thanks for that insight of letting us know that that award only gets one name. That is incredible. Incredibly difficult to choose as you're speaking on all of these, I'm just like, expletive, expletive, expletive. How the hell does anyone do this? Okay, so no clear from you two on Depot. I still got Nafisa pretty clearly on mine. Asia's close to 2.

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, I'd probably lean Stuart at this point, just like, ever so slightly.

[Zena Caida]

Stewart's My3, but it's so tricky because.

[Ben Pickman]

I watch Brianna Stewart, and the reason she's allowed to be this free safety, defensive menace is because Jon Coyle Jones is in the paint taking care of the rim protection. New York comes to Los Angeles a couple weeks back or maybe last week, and Jonquil Jones is unavailable. And all of a sudden New York's defense is not nearly as impressive and Brianna Stewart's still playing. So it's hard. Everything is so much a part of the system that they're playing. Same with Nafeesa Collier and Alana Smith. You can't exactly disentangle their roles and responsibilities from one another. So it's, it's really tough.

[Zena Caida]

You said it. You said it. It is incredibly tough. All right, let's keep going. As sixth woman of the year, this is the only award that I'm kind of like, I've only got one person in mind, and that's only because I've been paying attention to her, because I've been paying more attention to the rookies as a part of some of the content that I do for the wnba. But this is what I'm very interested to get your thoughts on. I think, Sabrina, you went first last time. Maybe. Ben, let's get with you. What's. Who's on your sixth woman of the year list now?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Was the rookie you had in mind, Leonie Feebish of the New York Liberty?

[Zena Caida]

Absolutely. Absolutely. You talk about somebody that's positively impacting defense, that's creating offense for her team, and that's just consistent. I, I love her as a sixth woman of the year option, but again, I haven't looked at the entire field to really evaluate this.

[Sabrina Merchant]

So the Feebich case is really interesting because she is basically a starter.

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah.

[Sabrina Merchant]

And that's where, that's where this is tough because this is the sixth woman of the year conversation. She has started 15 of New York's 33 games this year. I guess we will have to see if she ends up starting more than half of their games. Overall, I think that is one of the. I want to say that's one of the determining factors, I guess, Sabrina, maybe you check that as I continue to make the, like Liona Fibic undoubtedly been super impactful. And I think if you're looking at pure statistics and players who have come off the bench, like, she is probably the choice. But she started the last 11 games for New York. She, as I said, is basically a starter on the wing. That's the part of it I don't know what to do with. Right. Like, she was really good. You know, she's a Spanish league mvp. She came in with much anticipated. New York was really high on her over the offseason. She's been as good as advertised. Her role has evolved Significantly from like game eight or nine on to what it is today. And like, she's really was a bench player in her first 15 or so games, and her role was a little bit more limited. So that's where the feebage case is a tough one. Sabrina, what do you think of the feverish case?

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, so just to clarify the criteria for the sixth player of the year, as was the case in our 2023 Batt, was this award is designed to honor a player for their contributions in a reserve role. In order to be eligible for this award, a player must come off the bench for more games than they start. So Fivich, you said she started 15 out of 33?

[Sabrina Merchant]

That is correct.

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah. So if she plays seven more games, right. She has to come off the bench for at least three of them in order to be eligible for this award. So it's going to come down to the wire depending on whether Benijah Laney Hamilton, you know, makes a stronger recovery from this latest surgery. But I'm kind of with Ben here because if I'm thinking about her contributions in a reserve role, like Vivich kind of jumped onto the radar when she became a starter, right? Like, all of her best games have come. A lot of her best games have come as a starter. You know, the way she amplifies Stewie and Sav and like, she's obviously been awesome in that case. And technically, if she, you know, only starts four of the next seven games, she will be eligible for this award. I just think of her more of having had an impact as a starter than a reserve, which is why she wasn't on my short list. I do have a New York Liberty player and Kayla Thornton on this list because I think she's been awesome off the bench. But I do wonder how voters are going to think about that because, you know, Feebich has kind of been like the hot name, whereas Thornton, who has been a more consistent bench player, I think has also been really, really good for New York.

[Zena Caida]

Ooh, Kayla Thornton has been phenomenal. Just a three point threat, an expansion of their offense. Just. And then also, of course, just she is the bruiser. She is a defensive bruiser for the New York Liberty, which is dope. I did not think about her. I like that addition. Any others that you're thinking of for six women of the year?

[Ben Pickman]

So I have a couple names on my list. I've got Sophie Cunningham for the Phoenix Mercury. She's had to start quite a bit. Basically, like whenever somebody's unavailable, Sophie Cunningham ends up entering the starting lineup. She's like their sixth starter, but I think she's, you know, played enough bench minutes or bench games to be eligible for this. Just her ability to sort of like fill in for everything. She's kind of had to play like 2 through 5 and guard 2 through 5 for the Phoenix Mercury this season. It's just been really versatile. So I think she's had. She's had a good season. Kind of, kind of like a prototypical sixth player. Just like do, do what is left, you know, that the starters are not doing. Um, and then I also had Tiffany Hayes on my list.

[Zena Caida]

Oh, I like Tip Hayes, absolutely. Now talk about somebody literally coming out of retirement and becoming an integral part of an offense and defense. Um, okay, I like that. I like that. Ben, what about you?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, I mean, Cunningham I think is a good call though. She barely squeaks by in the starter reserve caveat conversation. I think she started 14 of Phoenix's 33 games this year. So it seems likely that she is going to play enough games to still qualify for this awards. But I guess there's a chance maybe she doesn't. I think Hayes, if we're like purely looking at reserve start to finish, has been the most impactful. And you know, she is someone who's coming off the bench and playing a pretty big role for the Las Vegas Aces. I think it's kind of as simple as that. She gives him some juice on offense. She gives us matted playmaking, much like she has done in various stops in her career. And you for her don't have to think about the starter versus reserve conversations. She started three games this year, though. One of her most impactful games was recently against Atlanta where she had 20 and 10. Those 10 rebounds, I should say that was in a start, so make of that what you will. But you know, she has been a consistent contributor off the bench all year. So I, I think the Tip Hayes call, if we're just looking at reserves, I think Feebich, you got to monitor and I want to break some of the numbers down more honestly and see some of the splits. But I think Hayes is a good call if you're going that way.

[Ben Pickman]

I guess the only tougher part with Hayes is that she didn't play the full season with Las Vegas. As Cena mentioned, she did come out of retirement. So, you know, like Cunningham, Thornton have just like a longer body of work. But those were the three names that I had on my list for now.

[Zena Caida]

Okay. I think we're all still undecided on that. 1. Still got a little bit more number crunching to do. Let's go to coach of the year. I thought I had a Rockaway. I have a top, but I've also got some really close number two and threes. I'm just gonna go ahead and say my number one, Cheryl Reeve, and I'm not putting Olympic gold in the mix of that. Okay. I'm just taking that out. That's to the side. That's a little bonus, little cherry on the top. But I think Cheryl Reeve, what she is doing with Minnesota, how she is, how she has been able to unlock. I feel Nafisa Collier has been able to figure out a way to make Alayna Smith, Nafisa Collier, Kayla McBride all come together and just be like this amazing kind of front court, backcourt tandem. The group is amazing. And I just like watching the Minnesota Links play. They have phenomenal defense and overall, I just. I just like them. I don't know. I. I like what Cheryl Reeves has done. That is not a very scientific breakdown, and that is why we got the experts here. So Cheryl Reeve is my number one. Stephanie White had her in my top three last year. Still got her in my top three this year. I need Connecticut son to give me something in the. At the end. Just give me something at the end. Maybe that might push me above Cheryl Reeve, Coach of the year. I'm looking at Cheryl Reeve and Stephanie White. What about you two?

[Ben Pickman]

Well, I can tell you that I'm pretty sure Cheryl Reeve is going to win coach of the year. Pretty much exclusively rewards teams that overachieve like last year. You know, Bree Jones is out for the season. Connecticut still ends up in the number three seed. Stephanie White, you know, wins coach of the year. You know, I think the year before that, like the AP Coach of the year was Tanisha Wright after the Atlanta Dream. Kind of overachieved in that. So I. My guess is that it is going to be Cheryl Reeve just based on, like, the pattern of how this award has gone. Even though personally, like, I think it's far more impressive. Not far more impressive, but I think it's equally impressive to, like, have expectations and meet expectations like what the Las Vegas Aces did last year or what Sandy Rondello and the New York Liberty are doing this year. I think that is equally challenging to have the target on your back and consistently meet that. But it's going to be Cheryl Reeve. I'm gonna tell you that. It's gonna be Cheryl Reeve. I think she's done a great job. And the fact that, like, Minnesota has this system that has proved so difficult to solve defensively and that she's optimized everybody offensively. And the way that, like, they've really just changed the way Minnesota plays on the offensive end, you know, for so long, long it had been the Sylvia Fowles show, and then last year was kind of a transition. Right. In terms of how can we now make Nafisa Collier the hub? And they've just fully actualized that this year and how good Courtney Williams has been in that point guard role. I think all of that is a credit to Cheryl.

[Zena Caida]

Absolutely.

[Ben Pickman]

You know, when you're going to finish as the number two or three team in the league and like, I just think the credit has to go somewhere and I think it's going to be Cheryl Reef.

[Zena Caida]

Yeah, completely. I didn't mention Courtney Williams, but yes, she has been the key that Cheryl Reese has been turning perfectly this season. And having her kind of come into a new system and take that over, it's. It's been fun to watch. And also, the Lynx were rated, I think, ninth coming into the season. I think they were in the bottom of wnba. I had them six. Okay, you had them six. I think they, in some. In polls, they were ninth. I mean, they were not expected.

[Ben Pickman]

Cheryl Reeve has brought up the ninth thing, that's for sure. I think that was an ESPN call.

[Zena Caida]

Okay, got it. Yeah, I. I'm like, I've heard that for sure. Absolutely exceeding expectations. What about you, Ben? What do you think?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Yeah, I mean, I can't disagree with any of the Cheryl Reef case. I mean, I, you know, I voted for Steph White last year. I think in large part for what you guys both said of them losing Bri Jones for the season and having to revamp pretty much everything that they did and still being as good, you know, highly successful of a team as they were, I think you can make a really strong case for Steph White again this year. I mean, the Connecticut sun are knocking on the door of the New York Liberty. Like, I don't know, the New York Liberty are, you know, the New York Liberty, let's put it this way, certainly see the Connecticut sun in their rear view. Right. I think, you know, there's only seven or eight games left in the season, but I think it's two and a half games that separate the two of them. And Connecticut is still right there and could sneak in and steal the number one seed overall. And look, credit to Steph White because Bree Jones has gone back into the fold. They've had to alter how they play. I mean, Alyssa Thomas last year was, you know, my vote for mvp, and I think a lot of people's vote for mvp, clearly. And someone who, you know, she is still playing at a really, really high level, but I don't think she's had quite as good of a season this year. With Bree Jones back in the fold. It's a team that has added Veronica Burton mid season or early on in the season. They've traded for Marina Mabry mid season in one of the splashiest trades we've seen in a long time. And the Connecticut sun just keep on clicking and they change lineup combinations and they, you know, alter their rotations and they put Bree Jones back in. And she is, you know, a very different kind of player in the middle than a lot of other centers that they've had in the past. And all Connecticut does is seemingly win basketball games. And that's a huge credit to Steph White and her staff, obviously the players too. But, you know, I think that's part of her candidacy. And, you know, it's why if she won this award, I would have no outrage either. I think the Reef case is really strong for style of play, and I think the White case is really strong, too. Those are kind of the two favorites in, in my mind.

[Zena Caida]

Absolutely. The aspect of folding in those players and. And unlocking their potential, particularly give her an award just for making Dijonay and Marina Mabry work. That is. That in itself deserves an accolade. So that's a really good point on supporting the Stephanie White case. I'm going Reeves. It sounds like you guys are going Reeves as well.

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah. I just want to make a quick note that I think Theresa Weatherspoon's done a really good job in Chicago. It's a really young team.

[Zena Caida]

Yes. Yes.

[Ben Pickman]

They were not expected to do anything. And just creating that culture, obviously empowering Kennedy Carter, like letting that Rhys Cardoso pairing in the front court blossom, like, those are all really good things that Theresa Weatherspoon has done in Chicago. And I think we'll see the benefits of those for a long time to come. Like, I can't get her over Cheryl Reeve or even Stephanie White just because, like, in game execution matters too. But I think it's worth noting just how good she's been. And I think the sky have also exceeded expectations.

[Zena Caida]

I'm really happy you brought that up because she was definitely a runaway in the beginning of the season for me. I really loved how she brought in those two rookies, how she became the Kennedy Carter whisperer. I mean, she absolutely deserves to be in the conversation and we'll see what happens. I mean, her front court duo is scary and they trust her. And if Camila and Angel continue to excel and, and grow at the rate that they are, it's going to be, it's going to be dangerous in the WNBA for with the Chicago sky and Teresa Weatherspoon at its helm. All right, last but not least, folks. We've been talking for a long time and having a great conversation, though, because I'll tell you what, I came in here thinking some things, and I'm sure some of you did, too. And now you got Ben and Sabrina making you think some other things. And that's the whole point, folks. That's literally the goal. Now. I don't think they're going to really make me change up on this one, though. This one, for me, there's not much debate. Okay, this is the MVP conversation and I'm white teed down. I'm literally in a white tee right now. If that is a hit for you as to who I'm choosing for MVP this season, it is. Asia Wilson. And that's just where I'm at. Sabrina, Ben, where are you guys at?

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, so Ben and I had this debate on the site last week about whether Asia Wilson's MVP candidacy was open and shut. Right? And I made the case that because the Las Vegas Aces have underwhelmed and other teams have been better with their stars on the court and there have been more tangible impacts of those stars affecting their play. Nafisa Collier was the player that I specifically advocated for that maybe it wasn't as clear cut as it may seem in terms of Asia Wilson's box score stats, which, let's be clear, Asia Wilson's box score stats are absolutely insane. Like, entering 2024, no player had ever averaged more rebounds than what Asia Wilson is averaging this year. No player had ever averaged more points than what Asia Wilson is averaging this year. Like Ben mentioned, her defensive metrics off the charts. Admittedly, Angel Reese has also averaged more rebounds than anybody. But that's besides the point. The numbers Asia Wilson is putting up is just. They're insane. And she does play with three Olympians, three Team USA Olympians, not to mention like Tiffany Hay is and Alicia Clark and Kia Stokes, who was a starter on a team that, you know, obviously won the championship the last two years. So it's not like she was lacking for talent. So the fact that the Aces were underwhelming kind of led me to believe, like, I don't want to give the MVP to a team that is fourth or fifth in the standings because I just tend to believe that the most value comes with players, you know, who are on winning teams. The problem is, is that Asia Wilson has just been so freaking good that sometimes they're just exceptions to rules, you know? And so even though I don't want to give the MVP to a team that's not in the top, you know, fourth of the standings, I think it's just gonna have to happen because, like, the gap between Asia and everybody else is to the extent where I just. I gotta break the rule, you know, and that's. That's just what it is.

[Zena Caida]

And I think Nafisa Collier. Absolutely. I mean, I'll list some of the other people that I thought for this category. I definitely had Nafisa Collier, definitely had Derickah Hamby. This is earlier on in the season thinking about just how much they're impacting and how much they are the top of the scouting report. Right? Like, if you shut these folks down, in my opinion, you're done. You're done with that team. Like, there's. You can't do anything without that star player. And that's how I kind of look at the MVP voting or voting for that MVP role before we keep going with, like, different options. Sabrina, is that how you look at it in terms of the mvp? Like, who is the person that, if you take them off the floor, this team has no chance? How do you kind of summarize it in your brain?

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah, Value. That's a good way of explaining it, is if you take them off the court, then what happens? But I also think that, like, there just has to be a good enough baseline when they're on the court. Like with Hamby, for example, obviously, she is dramatically important to what the Sparks are doing, but this is also a Sparks team that has won about seven games over the course of this regular season. So, yes, she's providing value, but how much value can you provide to a team that wins seven games? So to me, like, I like to start with a certain level of, like, you have to be at least, you know, I like to look at net ratings and think, like, eight is usually a good starting point for mvp. Unfortunately, Asia Wilson's individual night rating is not that high this year because the Aces have underwhelmed to that effect. But again, like, I don't think that's necessarily her fault, even though. God, it's. It's so weird to think that, like, Last year, the problem with Asia Wilson's MVP case was that her teammates were too good. And now my problem with her case is that her teammates are not good enough, even though it is the same teammates, same team. But, yeah, I do think value, it can be approximated that way. But I also think that, like, it has to be a team that is a certain level of good when they're on the court.

[Zena Caida]

Absolutely. I want to add, too, in terms of the other MVP candidate that I had, Neko Guimeke. And that was a little bit more, I think in the second half of the season, it's been more of a little bit of a stretch. I think towards the first half of the season, I absolutely saw her kind of being the factor for the Seattle Storm, being in that top four contention of the. Of the league. She's fallen off a little bit for me, and so has the Erica Hamby. And now it's, you know, definitely Asia at the top, Nafisa Collier sort of close behind. At one point, I was thinking Duana Bonner. I was out, you know, when she was just getting her score on and such. But statistically, definitely couldn't match up with what Nafisa and Asia were doing. So, Ben, you seem pretty locked in on Asia with me. Are you still there?

[Sabrina Merchant]

I am still there. I am still here. I would just add that, you know, MVP is one of the few awards on the ballot in which we are asked to submit five names. The only word even. Yeah, I mean, so even though with like, all WNBA teams, we are also asked to submit five names, and in a lot of people's cases, those five names are exactly the same. This is one in which we're asked to submit five. And I think Sabrina's question about value is, like, a really interesting one. And it was one I know we talked about, and you can read, like our conversation on this last week on the site for anyone who's interested, because there's really no, like, there's no criteria here that is mapped out by the WNBA about what is value, what this award is for. Is it best player, best team? Is it best player in the overall in the league? Is it most valuable player? What does that mean? It's really one of those that's, like, up for interpretation. And I think what Asia Wilson has done this year, as Sabrina said, is kind of exception to the rule type stuff. And for me, like, you know, we could write any of the statistical numbers. I mean, when I had last year, last week on the site, that I'm not sure actually what the updated number is, I'm sure it's still right there. Is that basically Asia Wilson, you know, she's getting the ball and she still finds a way to score with ease every single time. Out of the 10 highest usage rates in WNBA history, Asia Wilson is on that list. And of those 10 players across, her offensive efficiency is the highest, which basically says she's getting the ball and she is going to score and there's nothing you can do to stop it. And you could throw out any number of other numbers related to her. You could throw out some defensive numbers where, you know, her, you know, blocks and steals the defensive win shares. Like all this stuff is off the charts. Or you could throw out the rebounding numbers. You could just pick your poison here or white T shirts worn Zena, maybe that for you is a key part of the criteria right now. Either way, like, she has my first place vote right now. This is a big in the conversation award also. But right now I think let's just stick to the first and maybe the second here.

[Ben Pickman]

I think it also matters, like, what other people are saying about Asia Wilson. Like, I, you know, Phoenix played Las Vegas the other day and Diana Herozzi was just effusive for what Asia Wilson has done this season. She said it's like unthinkable. She's unguardable. Like, you may think of her as opposed. I think of her as a guard because she's basically facing up. She's not even. And, you know, scoring with her back to the basket. She's like, I, you know, good luck to the next generation who has to keep guarding her, especially if she keeps shooting threes. So to have, you know, the WNBA voted goat to assign like this level of esteem to a player like Asia Wilson when, you know, multiple other players in this conversation are UConn players. Right. Like, Asia Wilson is not. So to get that respect, I think just to me, like, helps to clarify. Like, yeah, this is something ridiculous we're seeing and kind of has to again overcome some of my preconceived notions about the MVP award.

[Zena Caida]

Absolutely, absolutely. She is one of those players that is undoubtedly going to have a good game, you know, that she's going to. Even if she's not. I mean, there's very few games that she's scoring under 20 points. She's averaging 27 and a half points. But even if she is not having an on night, she is doing things that allows her team to get better on the court. And man, it's scary. Like basketball players, if there's young basketball players. Listen, listening to this, that is what you should like, that is what you should look to achieve. Becoming a player that no matter what you get the ball, you're expected to score, whether it is through your own creation of a shot or a foul, right? And free throws like that is what you look at. When you look at Asia Wilson, you're like, do everything to make sure she does not touch the ball. That is. It's scary stuff. And that's why I'm white teed down, folks. And I am very much in the Asia Wilson camp. Oh, man, what a conversation today. Ben, Sabrina, how y'all feeling?

[Ben Pickman]

I can't believe most improved took the bulk of this conversation.

[Zena Caida]

I mean, but you know what? I actually can't. I can. And you know why? Because look at the league. Look how much the league has improved. Look at how. Look at the level of conversation that we're having around the league right now. Don't get me wrong, it's always been competitive. It's always had talent. But we're seeing a lot more players make their case. And I feel as if everyone's elevated their off season training, who they're training with, how they're, you know, preparing for this season. Is it because there's more eyeballs? Probably not just because I think people care enough about their profession that they want to get better. But I do believe that there's just an elevated level of competition because every class that's coming in is getting is better. And it's forcing everyone else that's already been here to get better. And that's not going to stop. I am scared. Scared of class of 2025. I don't know what they're about to come in and do after class of 2024 did what this is. This is just going to get harder. This is going to only get harder. So God bless all of you that have to have a vote in these awards because it's only going to get more difficult. So I can believe that that conversation most improved took the longest because the league is unbelievably improved over just the course of this year. And now more and more people are starting to see it. This is fun. I'm happy we had this conversation. I am so late to physical therapy. But it was worth it. I will tell my physical therapist we were talking about important things.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Just tell him to subscribe. Are they a listener? Xena?

[Zena Caida]

I don't know. You know what? Let me ask him. I'm going to ask him when I get there. And I'm going to tell him. I'm going to be like, do you know why I'm wearing a white tee? Oh, you don't. Don't worry. Find out on the Athletic Women Basketball Show. That's what we're about here. All right, folks, I appreciate all of you tuning in today. It was a long one, but it was a worthy one. And I hope that it helps you in how you're looking at the remainder of this season and the remainder of these games and the conversations that you're engaging in, particularly around that rookie of the year conversation and now apparently most improved as well. But hit that subscribe button because we got more conversation, conversations that we need to have. We haven't even talked about all WNBA teams. Trust me, you won't want to miss that one. But please leave us comments. Let us know what you think about our choices, where we landed, how we're evaluating all of the above. Read our stories. We've mentioned several over the course of this show that you can go back and read and and see if you agree with Ben or Sabrina or both and let us know what you want us to cover. Any questions that you guys have for us and our writers, we definitely want to hear it. So on behalf of Ben and Sabrina, I'm Zena Kaeda thanking you for your ear. Thank you for listening to the Athletic Women's Basketball show and of course, encouraging you. Keep listening, keep watching, keep learning and keep loving the game because that's the only way we're going to keep growing it until next time.

[Ben Pickman]

As we head into the playoffs.

[Sabrina Merchant]

It's safe to assume there will be.

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[Sabrina Merchant]

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[Sabrina Merchant]

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[G]

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[Ben Pickman]

Acast powers the World's Best Podcasts here's the show that we recommend.

[Sabrina Merchant]

Hey folks, it's Marc Maron from WTF.

[Zena Caida]

It's been more than 15 years now.

[Sabrina Merchant]

And I'm still talking to all kinds.

[Zena Caida]

Of people in my garage every week. Sometimes it's Bill Burr, sometimes it's Ariana Grande. She just looks at me because she's always going like, dad, it's not that big a deal.

[Ben Pickman]

Yeah.

[Zena Caida]

I go, sorry, I lost my temper. I go, I still love you. You know, Daddy has issues.

[G]

Are you afraid of it?

[Zena Caida]

Of death?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Well, I don't know. I think about it all the time.

[Zena Caida]

How are we here already?

[Sabrina Merchant]

Listen to WTF with Marc Maron twice a week on your favorite podcast app. Or get more WTF with a WTF plus subscription.

[Zena Caida]

Just go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF Plus.

[Ben Pickman]

Acast helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.