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- [00:00]
Zena Kada
When I started podcasting, it felt like I had to figure everything out myself. Booking guests, figuring out rundowns, editing the show and publishing it. It seemed like the list of to do's got bigger and bigger and when you're starting off with something new, it seems like that just happens. Finding the right tool that not only helps you out, but simplifies everything can be such a game changer. And for millions of businesses, that tool is Shopify. Shopify is the commerce platform, but behind millions of businesses around the world and 10% of all e commerce in the US from household names like Mattel and Gymshark to brands just getting started. Get started with your own design studio. With hundreds of ready to use templates, Shopify helps you build a beautiful online store to match your brand style, accelerate your content creation. Shopify is packed with helpful AI tools that write product descriptions, page headlines and even enhance your product photography. Get the word out like you have a marketing team behind you. Easily create email and social media media campaigns wherever your customers are scrolling or strolling. And best yet, Shopify is your commerce expert with world class expertise in everything from managing inventory to international shipping to processing returns and beyond. If you're ready to sell, you're ready for Shopify. Turn your big business idea into a With Shopify on your side, sign up for your $1 per month trial and start selling today at shopify.com TheAthletic Go to shopify.com TheAthLetic shopify.com TheAthLETic.
- [01:33]
Jordan Canada
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- [03:35]
Ben Pickman
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- [05:06]
Sabrina Merchant
For the Athletic I'm Zena Kada and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball show presented by Michelob Ultra oma. Welcome to the very first episode of the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. I'm your host Zena Keda and I want to personally thank our presenting sponsor, Michelob Ultra Michelob. You have helped a Long overdue podcast come to life, and we are all so grateful for it. The Athletic has always had amazing women's basketball coverage, and it makes sense to take that written form of coverage and expand it into audio form so that we can have a conversation, especially with these writers. This is where we can ask them about the nuance to what they're covering and the context around it, and dig into the stories that may not have made it into the article. This is where we get the table. And I am so excited that you all are joining me for this. I'm gonna have conversations with top women's hoops writers at the Athletic, as well as guests from within the space of women's basketball. And you're gonna be with me. It's gonna be a safe space. If you don't know anything about basketball, come on. If you know everything about basketball, come on. We want everyone to engage with this in a way that you're exploring, you're discovering, you're learning, you're being reminded all of the above around women's basketball, because when you do that, you enjoy the game better, you engage more, and that's ultimately what anyone in this space wants. So let me lay out what you can expect from this show. First timing. This week and next week, we're only going to have one show. We're just tiptoeing in getting to know each other. You know, we're going to have to get to know each other quickly, though, because WNBA playoffs are coming as well as women's college hoops. So this week and next week, we're just going to have one show. On Friday, the third week, we're gonna bump it up a little bit. Two shows per week. That will give us plenty of time to cover what I was just saying. Wnba, as well as college hoops, we're gonna throw in some international ball in there, too. What's going on overseas when we can. And we're gonna cover more than just the X's and O's. We're not just gonna talk about games. We're gonna talk about things that are going on around games, things that are impacting games and players and coaches and leagues. We're gonna make sure that we understand the history and the historical context around maybe a rivalry or injuries that are happening or improved performances. It's important to look at this game more than just the numbers in the box score. And that is what this space is gonna all be about. So before we get started, I wanna go ahead and introduce you to two of our incredibly talented writers. On our women's basketball desk that are gonna be covering and joining us for this podcast throughout the year, and that is Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. Welcome, guys.
- [08:09]
Kelsey Plum
Thanks for having us, Zena.
- [08:10]
Asia Wilson
Yeah. Really excited to be here.
- [08:12]
Sabrina Merchant
So I. I just feel like it's been so long. It's just been too long that we have, you know, been doing all this amazing reporting at the Athletic and now being able to talk about it. Sabrina, what are you most excited about for this show?
- [08:25]
Kelsey Plum
I'm most excited that we get to talk about the WNBA in a slightly less scary place than WNBA Twitter.
- [08:32]
Sabrina Merchant
That's fair. I respect that. I feel like, for me, I played college basketball, and even for me, wnba, Twitter, I'm like, I don't want to say the wrong thing. I don't know all the names all the time. I don't know. But it is also a really great source. And on this show, we're going to make sure that you also know all the other people that you should be following and you should be listening to, because it is a community and we want to make sure everyone's involved. Ben, what are you looking forward to?
- [08:59]
Asia Wilson
I think just the breadth of topics that we can talk about and just getting to expand on a number of different things, whether it's, you know, topics like awards or players or playoff races to issues, to college and WNBA to international basketball. Like, I think we're really going to dive into it all, take you behind the scenes with some of our reporting and tell you a little bit more about our process and some of the stories that maybe don't make stories, too. There's just a lot of ground we can cover, and I think we're both pretty excited to get into it, and.
- [09:27]
Sabrina Merchant
This space definitely deserves that. It definitely needs to have that complexity because that's what, you know, that's how you get fandom, that's how you get support. You allow women's sports to have nuance, and that's what we're here to bring. So, speaking of awards, thank you for that perfect transition, Ben. It is getting closer to that time of year where the magical letters are being sprouted out. Mvp, mip, Best Coach of the Year, best Team of the Year. And it's been a crazy race, particularly for that MVP conversation. Obviously, the number one names that come out, Asia Wilson, Briana Stewart. Some people would decline to say, but definitely needs to be included. Alyssa Thomas. And then there's quite a few that go down that list. I'm still stuck. And we're also going to talk about the teams of two of those people on that list. But I'm stuck because the conversation around MVP is always around most valuable player, right? So depending on the team's performance or that player's performance in like, in relation to that team's performance, it's a very. It's an easy toss up, right? And it all depends on what you think personally determines the term valuable. So, Sabrina, I'm going to start with you first. When you think about mvp, how do you kind of measure that up? So.
- [10:55]
Kelsey Plum
So for me, I always start with MVP is who is, I think the best player in the league Because I do think that the best players are going to naturally provide the most value. And the only place where that really runs into trouble is if I think the best player in the league is somebody who plays for a team that's not making the playoffs. Because if you're not making the playoffs, then you know, by definition you're only winning 12, 15 games. There's just not as much value to be had from such a performance. So I try not to make it too complicated. If I think someone is playing better than anybody else in the league, I don't really care what kind of talent they have around them. You know, coaching system is putting them in place to make these performances. If you're making that kind of statement on the court every single night, that you're the best friendly, that you can't be guarded, like, that's what I'm looking for in terms of an mvp.
- [11:38]
Sabrina Merchant
And do you see a name like that out there? It's.
- [11:45]
Kelsey Plum
This is. This is really hard. This is really, really hard. I don't know where Ben's landed yet, but I came down to the same decision last year of Asia Wilson versus Brianna Stewart. And last year I landed on Brianna Stewart. She ended up not winning mvp. Asia Wilson won her second along with defensive player of the year. And this year I'm looking at Asia stats. They're all better than they were last year. She's playing an even better defensive role than she was last year. The Aces have the number one defense in the league. They have the number one record in the league, which wasn't even the case for all of last season. It's very hard for me to look at the season, just what has happened over the course of the year. When you think back to the year 2023, you're going to think about these two teams, you know, the Aces and the Liberty, these two players, the decisions that they made during the off season. I find it very hard not to pick Asia Wilson this year. And maybe I spent too much time in Vegas and like, yeah, the water's getting to me.
- [12:34]
Sabrina Merchant
Okay. Yes, exactly. Let's be fair. You know, Sabrina, you do spend a little bit of time covering, obviously, the Las Vegas Aces. So you've seen this performance, but you've already shown your impartiality and the fact that you were willing to vote for Breonn Stewart, that plays for a different team. Ben Pickman, that you cover. So before we get into more into what Sabrina's thoughts are, Ben, I want to ask you as well, how are you looking at that term most valuable player in your decision making?
- [13:02]
Asia Wilson
I'm not one who usually puts a ton of weight into. Like, if you take this player off of a roster, how would their team perform? But for some reason, I think this year, more than maybe other years in recent memory, that idea has really rung true in my mind. And I've done a lot of thinking about that. I mean, I think Sabrina mapped out the. The kind of trio that is up there at the top. Alyssa Thomas, Stewie, and Asia Wilson. And, you know, as I prep, as you mentioned, I'm around the Liberty a lot. Sabrina is around the Aces a lot. I mean, I think Stewie and. And Israel Wilson have been just dominant this year, and they've put on some really fantastic, magical performances on multiple, multiple occasions. But there is something this year that, as I watch the Connecticut sun and as I watch Alyssa Thomas, that I almost can't quit. You know, a lot of people feel the same. Yeah, just her versatility, her ability to impact the game in so many ways. Right. She leads the league or is 1A, 1B kind of tied with Courtney Vandersloot. She leads the league in rebounds. She, as I said, leads the league in assists. She's third in steals. She's like two minutes from playing the most minutes in the league. And, you know, she's just doing everything for the Connecticut Sun. And if you take her off that team with Brianna Jones going out with an Achilles injury, I mean, do they have 10 wins? Do they have 12 wins? Like, they are certainly not a number three seed. A team that is dangerous, that is frustrating to play, I think with her maybe more than so many other players in recent years, there is this idea of value. Again, the advanced metrics also don't favor her. Right. You look at stats like win shares. Asia Wilson and Stewie both better than Alyssa Thomas in some in those metrics. Right. On both offense and defense. So, you know, maybe on the metrics, Case. But there's just something about Alyssa Thomas, her versatility, her impact that, you know, she's a super, super appealing candidate. I haven't made a final decision, but, you know, I want to give her proper due diligence here and I might even vote for her when the season comes to an end.
- [15:02]
Sabrina Merchant
Okay. I love this concept of if you take a player off of a team because that does also uncomplicate it. Right. And I know, Sabrina, that's what you're talking about is like keeping it very direct. I did that mental math kind of in my head as you said that of looking at the Aces, looking at the Liberty and looking at the Sun. And you're right. I do feel like the sun would have the largest deficit if they take out an Alyssa Thomas versus the others. But this is an interesting conversation that's going on around Twitter, et cetera. That's like, you can't punish someone just because they're around really good players. Right? And that's a whole nother conversation, too. That also touches into the next category, most improved player. And that's a really tough one because you look at if someone's improved on a team that's really, really good, is that actually more impressive or less impressive? If you're starting five around you or your team that starts the game and you're coming off the bench is performing better and causing you to rise to the level of occasion, is that more impressive than someone that's just doing the work that needs to be done and because of that, they've improved as well. I already have my vote for mip. I'm split between two, but I'm just saying I'm like in I'm there, Maureen Johannes and the Liberty and Satus Abili from the Dallas Wings. Those two, I'm just like, they have gotten so much better and so much more valuable in crunch moments. I think satsusably more generally. But Marine has just blossomed this year. I am very curious as to. Ben, I'll start with you this time because you have Marine on your team. Have you thought about her for MIP at all?
- [16:49]
Asia Wilson
She's been great all year. She really is a spark plug. She is not on my short list of candidates right now and not on my ballot. I'm going to do something that I think I will mention a lot of times over the course of this show. I'm going to talk about the importance of overseas basketball first to set up my most improved player picks. Right. The WNBA is the pinnacle. It is a goal for so Many players. It is the best collection of talent in the world. It is also a season that runs four to six months, maybe a little longer, depending on how long you play, which leaves a ton of time left and a ton of basketball left. And a lot of players, as we know, go overseas in the winter. Really, the two players I've put a ton of time thinking about are two players who really have benefited from time away from the WNBA and playing overseas. That's Alana Smith of the Chicago sky and Kehlani Brown of the Dallas Wings.
- [17:40]
Sabrina Merchant
Oh, yeah.
- [17:41]
Asia Wilson
You know, these are. These are two players who basically were out of the league. They were out of the wnba and suddenly they've played big roles on each of their respective teams. Kalani, a little bit more of a reserve role. She's playing, I think just around 17 minutes per game. But, you know, she played one game in 2021. That was her last appearance. And now she's suddenly playing, you know, a key reserve role on a Dallas Wings team that is one of the best in the league. Alana Smith was someone who I remember in the finals a couple years back when Phoenix made it. She was basically their last player on the roster. She would be the last player to regularly enter games. Last year, she was cut by Indiana. She played just nine games with the Fever. They were going a little bit of a different direction. She left the team. Then they had the World cup that was set in Australia, and she did not make the Australian team like she had the opportunity to. She has international experience with them. She didn't make it. She goes to Poland. She plays super, super well in Poland, wins their league's MVP and comes back and has played a huge role on the Chicago sky this year. Right. She started almost every game. She's playing just shy of 30 minutes per game. She's shooting 50% from the field, almost 10 points, seven rebounds per game. Like, she is someone who I look at when you talk about straight improvement. She went from out of the league or close to it, on the cusp to playing a big role. I just think that needs to be recognized. I think she would be my choice right now for most improved player. Like a player like Satu. Sabley has gone up a whole nother level. She's gone, you know, made another all star team. Her numbers are way up. She's so important to the Dallas Wings. But, you know, this is someone who went from in Alana Smith out of the league to now a staple and should be a contributor this year and for years to come. So that is kind of how I'm leaning at this juncture.
- [19:26]
Sabrina Merchant
Ben, you better come with the numbers. I'm loving that. I appreciate the evidence being laid out. And, you know, you just taught me something. I did not know that she didn't even make her Australian team. That's crazy considering where she's at right now and how she's helping out her team. Wow. Okay. Yes. Sabrina, you got a case to lay out. It's like, what's going on? What's going on in your mind for mip, it's so funny to me that.
- [19:52]
Kelsey Plum
Ben went the international route, because while Ben was gallivanting around Europe this past off season and checking in on all of these players and figuring out what they were doing during the WNBA off season, I wrote a lot about players who were figuring out ways to improve while they were in the US and one of those players was Jordan Canada, who for the first time did not go overseas and actually spent some time at Athletes Unlimited, which is sort of the, you know, domestic answer for the WNBA in terms of how to get players doing something during the off season but still working on their games. And Jordan Canada had to sign a training camp contract with the Los Angeles Sparks this year, was not guaranteed to make the team out of preseason. Ends up earning the starting job. You know, Kurt Miller has had one point guard on his team for the last seven years. Like, that's been Jasmine Thomas. It's the only point guard he's had as a head coach. He traded for Jasmine Thomas to bring her in. Obviously she's dealing with the ACL recovery, but like, that was always the plan was for Jasmine Thomas to take over this role and Jordan Canada just will refuse to relinquish it because she's been so good as a starting point guard. And the first time really in her career that she's had this opportunity because she backed up super for so long in Seattle. And then, you know, the Sparks were just a giant tire fire in 2022. So for her to rebound from everything that happened in Los Angeles last year, I think when I think about most improved, no one improved one skill more than Jordan Canada improved her shooting this past offseason. She's been historically one of the worst gem shooters from the guard position in league history. And now she's a 35% shooter from three point range like that jump is unbelievable. The fact that she can, like, reliably lead an offense in Los Angeles and then do all of the other things that make Jordan Canada great, like the fact that she can, like, intercept Passes like she's a freaking defensive back and, you know, run the floor. And I mean, the Sparks have regard everybody. Like, I know that Elena Smith has like a more comprehensive level of improvement and I think Kalani Brown's a really interesting candidate too, because Ben said basically out of the league. And now she gets to, you know, start at center. When Tierra McCowan's out, she plays next to Tierra McCowan. Like, there's so many interesting things that Dallas does with her. That one improvement that Jordan Cannon made, like, completely revolutionized her game and it made her, I think, one of the more interesting free agents this offseason. And it all comes from, like, her having the time to actually do skill work during the off season and then go to Athletes Unlimited where you don't have to worry about being cut. You know, you're going to be on a team every week. There's a certain level of confidence that comes from that level of that. That structure, you know, of playing. I know a lot of players in LA specifically have talked about that. So, yeah, that's. That's where I'm going. Jordan Canada, most important player and probably some other awards based on what we end up talking about today.
- [22:28]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, no, I really appreciate that. And I want to go back to the way you almost set this up too, of you just mentioned confidence. I would say that that's something that I've noticed in Jordan Canada. Her confidence as a floor leader and her ability to talk to her team and restructure her team and they're kind of, you know, if they're not in alignment on the floor, you can trust her to go up to the individual players, tell them get their head up or get their head back in the game. And. And does that. Is that something that you consider when you think about most improved, someone that's improved their leadership qualities and their ability to be a trusted, poised player on the court.
- [23:05]
Kelsey Plum
You know, it's so hard to quantify leadership, but like, I think you're exactly right that there's Jordan. I don't. I mean, she's a naturally very quiet person. She's more of a lead by example type of person. But you actually see her talk to players on the court. Yeah, that has been part of the Jordan Cannon experience. It's not the number one item on my list, but the fact that she is starting at point guard for a team that could make the playoffs, maybe her, maybe Alana Smith, who knows, Depending on what happens with the Sparks in the sky down the stretch of the season, I think just being that position kind of implicitly suggests that there is.
- [23:38]
Asia Wilson
Leadership involved with it and it reflects just a comfort. Right. That, like, you know, you have a spot on this roster and you have a role. I think if you look at all the players we've kind of suggested and so many others around the league, you know, it makes sense. And I think we do this in our own jobs and in our own lives. Right. If you know you're not going to get cut or fired or let go tomorrow, like, you may be a little more comfortable talking to your colleagues or your teammates or your coaches in a certain manner. Right. And I think that's the same thing in the case of Jordan Canada. You know, she's just comfortable because she's carved out an important role on that team. She's not alone in that regard around the league. But I certainly think it speaks to what you both are saying.
- [24:16]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, speaking of coach and coaches and colleagues and such, I do want to talk about coach of the Year. I feel like this is a one that kind of goes under the radar a little bit. A lot of people have thrown out Becky Hammond and the success that they've had. I personally, I know Dorothy Gentry that is on our team at the Athletic, just covered Latricia Trammell and what she's doing. I think there's. There's some really interesting candidates this year. I probably will go with Trammel with what she's done with the Wings, but. Sabrina, thoughts on your aces And Hammond?
- [24:49]
Kelsey Plum
There are like six coaches. I can make a reasonable case for each of these.
- [24:52]
Sabrina Merchant
I know. I feel like this is a tight race this year. It's just everyone's up their game and really everyone's up their game with some serious odds against them. Right. Whether it's players going out or whatever it is, there's. They've been able to make something out of nothing or not out of nothing, but something that's. That wasn't expected. And so I'm. I'm very impressed with quite a few coaches, but I would love to hear your opinion.
- [25:17]
Kelsey Plum
Yeah. This is like the one category where I wish there was actually a ballot to fill out, like there was a top three or something. Because just getting to submit one name feels so disingenuous to the process. Like, I think what Steph Wyatt has done in Connecticut is so impressive. Having so much of an overhaul of that roster, then having to deal with the injury to Brianna Jones. Like, she's getting such good production out of Ty Harris and the Tisha Heideman TJ Nick Harrington is having like a six woman of the year type season. I just. The way that Connecticut does not miss a beat, even though she took over a system that was in place for seven years under a different coach, is very, very cool to me. The fact that they've sort of modernized their offense, I think Steph White has an excellent case. The development that I've seen out of the young players in Seattle, like from Jordan, Horston, Dolce, Finka, Mangiadu, like, even the way Jewel Lloyd has expanded her game, I think a lot of that credit goes to Noel Quinn. It's not really the technical coach of the year case because it's usually a team that tends to win a little bit more than Seattle has. But I can't overlook the fact that they're individually, so many of their players are doing so much better than I thought they would. But I mean, you asked me this question because you wanted me to say Becky Hammond. I'm going to say Becky Hammond because the Las Vegas Aces have the best offense in the league and the best defense in the league. And they came off of a championship winning season when they were a pretty middling defense and all they did was just get much, much better on that end. So as long as they're atop the league in those two spots, Becky Hammond's going to get my vote.
- [26:40]
Sabrina Merchant
Okay, Ben, that's the case for Becky Hammond, but there's apparently five other coaches that could possibly get it. What are those people on your list?
- [26:49]
Asia Wilson
I mean, frankly, I think Sabrina actually talked a little bit about the person who I think is at the top of my list, and that is Stephanie White. Um, you know, I remember when Kinetic came to New York earlier in the year and Dewana Bonner was talking about just how new, like the system that the sun are running was and how difficult that was just for her to learn it at, you know, at her stage in her career. Having so much familiarity with Kurt Miller system and now learning, you know, an offense that is much more free flowing and read and react and it's just very, very different than some of the basketball they played in the past couple years. And then, you know, Brianna Jones hurts herself and they have to reinvent themselves a little bit more. And a lot of that reinvention has, you know, gravitated around Alyssa Thomas doing even more than she was asked to do heading into the year. But I just think that is such a credit to Stephanie White and also the staff around her. Right. I mean, you look at her staff and I know this is Not a. This is. Coaches would say this is a team award. It's about players, it's about their staff. But she also has a pretty. I mean, she has a new staff around her as well. The coaches on her staff have varying levels of experience. You know, she doesn't have like a proven long term, long time assistant as well. You know, someone like Bree January is coming right off the court as a player and being a key voice in that Connecticut locker room on that staff. So, you know, I think what Connecticut has done to stay afloat, sustain themselves, still be one of the most difficult teams to play on a night in, night out basis. I mean, they should have beat the Liberty probably about a week ago at this point. They beat them and showed that, like, even as the season is coming to an end, they can still beat and play with a lot of these top teams. That is a credit to them as a coaching staff. It's a credit to the players too, of course. So Steph White, I think, has my vote at this point in the season.
- [28:26]
Sabrina Merchant
Okay. All right, that's fair. Now I'm going to make you guys duke it out a little bit. Team of the year. And team of the year is such an interesting one because I feel like it's very similar to MVP in the sense of looking at the value that a team looking at the value of a player on a team, not necessarily how well that team is doing, but if you take that player out, how well is that team doing? Right. Like they could be the number one. If that player's on the number one team. Let's say Asia Wilson is on the number one team. And they're also incredibly stacked with tons of other players. Is her value as valuable as someone like an Alyssa Thomas? Right. I feel the same way about teams in the sense of what you just were kind of mentioning, Ben. If you've had an easy go of it, right, you haven't had a lot of injuries or you've had a stacked roster. Are you more impressive or less impressive than a team that's lost the player and had to reinvent themselves or experienced some sort of hardship and had to readjust? Obviously, those aren't stats, right? And you can. I love the fact that you guys talk stats. That's important. People listening stats are important. However, they're not everything. Right. And so I always like to look at the contextual clues as well. When it looks at the. When you're looking at these, you know, top categories, these awards. So with team of the Year, Sabrina, you have a team that Arguably comes up as number one. And you just mentioned reasons as to why. Number one offense, number one defense. What else are you looking at when you look at Team of the Year? If there is anything else?
- [30:10]
Kelsey Plum
Yeah, you know, I wasn't entirely sure what you meant when I saw Team of the Year on the outline. And the way I thought of it was just when I think about the story of 2023, like what team sort of encapsulates what I'm going to remember about this year. And normally that would be a champion, but obviously we're not there yet. So I think I'm going to go with the Liberty. And that's because when I think about why the WNBA has become so much more interesting and created so many more storylines this year, it's because we had a team that just went balls out during the off season and tried to do whatever they could.
- [30:44]
Sabrina Merchant
Right.
- [30:44]
Kelsey Plum
You know, to one go toe to toe with the Aces, who are the defending champions, and then just create this new standard for player experience and like what a franchise in the WNBA should look like, again, going toe to toe the Aces in that respect. So if I think of, like the Aces as the team of 2022, that sort of leaves room for the Liberty to take that spot as the team of 2023. And also I've love to Asia Wilson and Becky Hammond and everybody else on the Aces. I feel like Brandon Stewart making this move is arguably the most seismic move in the history of WNBA offseason. Like her choosing to go to the Liberty. And that's, I mean, that's how the 2023 season started for me as a WNBA fan. And that's what I'm going to remember.
- [31:24]
Sabrina Merchant
About it for sure. Ben, that's a lot of great words for your team there. That's a lot of support right there. That's some love.
- [31:31]
Asia Wilson
Sabrina makes a really good point, and I thought she laid out a very compelling case of both how she thought about the category in general and also the case she made when deciding who she thinks she should pick. I would also add to what you were kind of mapping out. Xena, like the Liberty, I think, more than the Aces, I mean, fully reinvented themselves, right? Like they had to add a number of players into the fold. Not just Stewie, but of course, John Cole Jones, Courtney Vandersloot, a number of others. Kayla Thornton's played a really big role earlier in the year especially. And so if you look at their reinvention and just their kind of journey to this point, like they've had to do a lot of work to get to this point. Not that other teams haven't. And we certainly see with the Aces right now like they are working through a number of things and very much still learning about each other and how to best play off each other and fit. I will say, though, and Sabrina makes a key point. I might plead the fifth a little bit on this one. At this point in the season, I still think I know Sabrina made a convincing case and we're supposed to come up with a take on this and have a clear argument, but I'm gonna wait till a champion is decided. I think there is a big chapter of a brewing rivalry that is left to occur. I think we are due for some memorable moments in the playoffs. And I think our lasting memory of this season will come in early October, in mid October, when two teams that presumably have a lot of star power battle it out for a championship. So check back with me in a couple of weeks on this one. But I think Sabrina's case for right now was a compelling one.
- [32:55]
Sabrina Merchant
Hey, that's perfectly fair. And again, Ben, with the transitions perfectly aligned there because we're definitely going to talk about these Aces and these Liberty matchups. It's been quite the blockbuster games, interesting results in a few of them. I don't think that some of the blowouts that we saw were expected, but definitely always interesting and always exciting and engaging. And I want to go back to what you said before Sabrina, talking about the moves that the New York Liberty made this off season being seismic. That is the most perfect way to describe it because I don't know that the Aces Liberty matchup, not this most recent one, but I think it was two weeks ago that everyone tuned into in the Commissioner's Cup. Right. I don't think that that would have had the same level of relevance and buzz and just popularity as a thing to watch in sports had New York literally not been sized up that way. Right. Had not been stacked up that way in the off season. These two teams have definitely made for some popcorn games. But as of late, the Aces don't look like they match up well or evenly against the New York Liberty, especially now that the New York Liberty have found their stride at this point in the season. So first, Sabrina, I'll look to you to kind of just like lay it all out. Bathe officially closed out their their matchups for the year. What happened?
- [34:36]
Kelsey Plum
So, I mean, we talked about these two teams as super teams during the off season because of all of the talent that they brought in. And I Want to make it clear that like the Aces were not a Super team in 2022, even after winning a championship. No one was rushing to call them that. They were a deserving WNBA champion, obviously, but I don't think anyone would consider them a historically great or supremely talented team. Like they were on par with a lot of the other teams that we've seen in recent wnba. Like your. So they added Candace Barker, you know, one of the eight greatest players, probably more than that, one of the five greatest players in WNBA history, even if she is, you know, towards the latter stages of her career. They added Alicia Clark, who is essentially the role player you want if you are trying to build a good team and again, later stages of her career, but still very productive. That's what, what pushes them over the top. You know, from just being a championship team to being what we would consider a super team. And then you get basically player for player a match in New York, Right, Like Finals mvp, worthy guard and Chelsea Gray, Finals mvp, worthy guard and Courtney Vander Sloot, like supremely talented two guard and Kelsey Plum, leading scorer in college basketball history. Okay, well, triple double record holder in college basketball history, Sabrina Escu, who's putting together the best high volume three point shooting his season in league history. Right. Stewie Asia Wilson, nothing needs to be said about that. Like Candace Parker, former defensive player of the year mvp John Will Jones, former mvp. Oh, I always forget Benjulaney, I apologize. But Benija Laney, former all star. Jackie Young, former All star.
- [36:03]
Sabrina Merchant
Right.
- [36:03]
Kelsey Plum
Like just toe to toe, every player on that lineup matches up against one another. But then you take out Candice Barker and all of a sudden one of the teams doesn't look so super. And I think that's what we're seeing is that the Aces are still very, very good. They're a team that won a championship last year. They've gotten better from that team because they've played more time together. They've become more comfortable in Becky Hammond's system. Their individual players have gotten better. It's just that one little extra piece that they thought they were adding this offseason isn't playing right now. And Liberty are, I think, figuring out exactly what all of their pieces look like together at the same time that the Aces are going through this lull of sorts. I mean, like 6 and 4 in 10 games, it doesn't seem very terrible, but like considering this team started what, 18 and two, it's a big, big departure. Yeah.
- [36:49]
Sabrina Merchant
So when you talk about the matching up, you know, going down the roster and matching up. You also most recently wrote about the Washington Mystics who beat the Liberty. And I think that there's something to be said about the fact that there's not a sizable guard of a Stewie caliber that size with that offensive, I don't know what you would call it, Toolbox. You know what Stewie has on the Aces, right. And so they're going to have to shift their defensive scheme in order to match up with them one on one. Whereas you mentioned with the Washington Mystics, between Elena Deldon coming back, Shakira Austin taking care of what's inside. I feel like this is always going to be an issue with the Aces until a Candace Parker comes back. Do you see a player on that team that can step up to be that outside guard presence that can defend and try to, I mean, as much as you can quiet Breonna Stewart's impact?
- [37:53]
Kelsey Plum
I think you just need more from Chelsea Gray and Asia Wilson, which is a crazy thing to say for a player that I picked as my mvp, that you need more from her. But in this matchup against Liberty, with all of the talent that they have, you just need more. I think that's it.
- [38:06]
Sabrina Merchant
Okay. All right. So Ben, from your perspective in New York, it started rocky. I think you might remember the buzz around the team that was like, ooh, they have not gelled yet. When did you start seeing them finally click?
- [38:23]
Asia Wilson
I think the game people will turn to and players talk a lot about is the Dallas game. After break that Dallas kind of came in and it was a kids camp day game. It was I think at noon tip or one o'clock tip. So it was an early morning game coming off a long weekend in Vegas. So we'll throw that out as a caveat. But Dallas really dominated that game and a lot of the New York home losses in the first half of the season. And some of their struggles came at home when they were blowing leads. Some of their losses, they were games in which New York was close or up in and squandered late in the second half, third quarter, fourth quarter, etc. Dallas was not that. Dallas just outplayed them for the entirety of the game. And I think that led to a kind of a lot of soul searching. And I know that Sandy Brandello even talked to the team and kind of had them reflect on themselves after that game. We've seen a much improved John call Jones after that game. Just, you know, Sandy set an expectation with JJ of you need to get a double double every night. You can be this double double machine. And we've seen that not every night from jj, but pretty consistently from that point forward. So to me, that is kind of the game. When you look back at the Liberty, that is a turning point game, without a doubt in my mind of from that moment on. And I think we've seen in the month of August, I think entering Monday night, they were number one in offensive rating. New York was. They were number one in defensive rating again just in the month of August. And so they've really clicked. As you mentioned, they took a little bit of time to gel. Stewie was the first one to kind of get into the fold. Then we saw Courtney Vanderslooter, I think, kind of ease in and start to fit around Sabrina and Stewie and Benijah and Kayla Thornton around them. And then we've seen JJ really in the second half of the year kind of come into her own and look much more like the All Star, the MVP that we've seen in the past. The one other thing I would say in Becky Hammond did acknowledge this after their defeat on Monday night in their final matchup of this regular season. You know, Becky also did mention the depth and the bench difference, right? She talked about Maureen Johannes. She called her, I think she said she does her work dirty, was Becky's quote. And she called her an assassin. And I think Becky even made like a bang, bang, bang sound that she's in and out before you've ever seen her, right? Maureen got him, scored eight points. She electrifies the crowd. She doesn't work. And that is it. And that is a punch that really the Aces don't have, right? You look at their bench, Sabrina mentioned Alicia Clark. She's been great. She's been one of the best reserves in the entire league. But at this point in her career, she's not also creating offense, especially in the way that Marine can coming off the bench. So I think you look at depth and this was something that New York, their coaching staff, their front office talked about heading into the year. They believed entering the year that their depth would make a big difference by season's end. Of course, they didn't predict and wish upon the Candace Parker injury. And so that has obviously kind of changed the rotations that Sabrina was mentioning for Las Vegas. But that is another thing that I think is super, super important here, that New York also has a little bit more punch. And you know, Sabrina, someone you know, not unlike Chelsea Gray or Kelsey Plum can get going. But we certainly saw Monday night against Las Vegas, you know, Sabrina scored 17 points in the first half. The moment that sticks with me, I think, of all the other shots in that game was when Sabrina nailed a three. I think it was her third three right the half. I think she had 17 points. At halftime, Becky Hammond was kind of standing in the corner by her team's bench, and she immediately just put her hands on her hip. She called it borderline negligence. Basically, it was borderline negligent to give Sabrina an opening at the end of the half. After the game, Becky puts her hand on on her hip. The buzzer sounds, goes to halftime. She is the first person to walk to the locker room. She basically left her hands on her hip until it was time to walk to the locker room. And she led the team into the locker room. Right. That is a moment that just sticks with me. That I think really exemplified just her frustration in the first half especially, but also just the firepower that New York has that Sabrina can also get loose. And we've seen it time again this year. So there's just a lot of firepower on both teams. But I think that depth and firepower that New York has maybe gives them a slight edge at this point in the season at least.
- [42:12]
Sabrina Merchant
I keep thinking about the August 6 matchup, the 9961 matchup. And that, to me, wasn't the game that the New York Liberty clicked, but it was the game that was like, oh, that's what a super team looks like. If anyone was questioning it, that's the definition of a super team. They felt they looked so confident and secure in the way that they came out. And it also didn't seem like the Aces. It almost seems as if the Aces weren't true. The true Aces. We knew them to be as like the matchup competitors, right? It almost felt as if they were playing another team within the league that didn't have the same level of star power and firepower as you all are mentioning. It didn't seem like it was truly a matchup. And if you were a non WNBA fan and someone's hyped this game up, telling you that, oh, my God, these are the best two teams in the league and they're going to go at each other and it's going to be crazy. And then one loses by 30 more than 30. It just felt like it was deflating almost. I'm going to take it from your perspective, Sabrina, knowing that you cover the Aces. They did have to come back and play again against the Liberty, and they did play better, but that game still happened. What do you remember about the takeaway from that game for the team and how they felt and being able to match up with this team in a playoff situation.
- [43:47]
Kelsey Plum
For example, we've been talking about these two teams all year as potential rivals, and they have refused to buy into it. And that was the first moment where I got the sense that, oh, they're starting to feel what we feel from the outside. Like, maybe it's just the projection of everything that's causing them to experience a little distaste towards one another. Maybe it's the fact that they had to play four times in the course of a month, and they were just already anticipating the fact they were going to see each other over and over and over again. But after that game, which I initially wrote off just because Asia Wilson got, like, her bell rung in the first quarter and just did not look like herself for most of the game, when. When I was talking to Kelsey Plum two days later, she said, you know, it's funny, there's one game they act like they won a championship, and it's like, oh, ah, some heat.
- [44:34]
Sabrina Merchant
There we go.
- [44:35]
Kelsey Plum
So actually, the stittiest has emerged from. Because these players are so careful about giving away any. Anything, right? Like, they don't want to express that they're thinking about this team more than others or that they look forward to these games more than others. Like you mentioned that these have been popcorn games. Kelsey likes to say that there's popcorn in every game. You know, if you're looking for it, there's popcorn in every game.
- [44:58]
Sabrina Merchant
There's true.
- [44:59]
Kelsey Plum
So that was the first time that I sort of sensed that, okay, like, whether it's because we've tried to manufacture it or because there is actually a sense that these two teams are going to be facing each other a lot in the upcoming weeks or months if we get a potential finals matchup. Like, that's when I started to feel the actual animosity building. And I think we saw some of that in this most recent game in New York, too, where, you know, Sidney Coulson and Benijah Laney got into it a little bit, and there's just a little bit of chippiness that wasn't present earlier in the season. And so, I mean, this is not like an entirely basketball thing, but I think, you know, good rivalries rely on a little bit of just distaste.
- [45:33]
Sabrina Merchant
Right?
- [45:33]
Kelsey Plum
Like, teams should not like each other. And there's so much good camaraderie in the wnba. Like, they're all so supportive of one another. They'll Work together, you know, like on the union, to try to lift each other up. That we don't get a lot of this just I don't like you type of situation. And we're getting some of that and I'm really enjoying it.
- [45:55]
Sabrina Merchant
That was the main thing that came out of the NCAA tournament right in the spring was finally we're seeing the complexities of these players and allowing them the nuance to be competitors and to be. Yeah, like you said, have a little distaste, put a little flavor into the rivalries. I'm going to close this out with Ben. I want to ask you, speaking of that spiciness, speaking of the distaste, speaking of the. The building crescendo of rivalry between these two teams going into the playoffs, how has this impacted the league and how is this good for the league in general for these two teams to be rivals whether they buy into it or not?
- [46:36]
Asia Wilson
I mean, it's just more attention, it's more eyeballs, it's more storylines. And look, I think it's certainly a good thing that you have two of the, you know, as we mentioned, two of the three MVP candidates, I think the two best players in the league right now in Asia Wilson and Brianna Stewart. Right. The fact that the star power is there. You go down the list, you have a number of players on the US Olympic team. You have tons of all W performers. You know, I think if you made a list of the top 15 or 20 players in the league, like almost every, everyone in the starting five of each team is making that list. And that is pretty amazing. So just the collection of talent has attracted so much attention from media, from fans, from. We see the TV numbers. I think they just released it on Wednesday afternoon. We're recording this. You know, Wednesday afternoon was the most watched WNBA regular season game on ESPN in five years. We've seen that a number of different times. When these team play, you have viewership records and that's certainly a good thing for the league as a new TV deal. The negotiations on a new TV deal are coming very soon and that has the chance to shape a lot of different factors about the league, including something we'll talk about at a later date in terms of travel, but, you know, just the eyeballs, the attention is great. The one other thing I would say though, going back to the conversation that, that you and Sabrina had, Xena, is I'm a little cautious to just hype up the score of all these games because I think it is something that we are seeing in professional basketball The NBA college because of the three ball and just how easy it is to go on a run and get hot. Some of these games get out of hand very quickly. Becky Hammond was quick to point that out prior to Monday night's game. Right. There was a 31:10 run in the Monday night game between the first and second quarter. That really was the difference. Las Vegas played much better in the second half. They were not able to recover. But some of the score lines can be a little misleading. And so I would temper or at least tell fans, followers of the game, maybe people who are gambling on these games in October, if there is a WNBA Finals, you know, don't just look at the scoreline differences because some of these games got got out of hand very quickly and when they did, some coaches pulled the plug or adjusted their lineups accordingly. I think these teams still are closer match than say the 30 point blow up that we saw or even this 10 point game or the nine point game that they played more recently. So I think New York, as you said, they're slightly better right now. They're playing better and they're the more complete team, you know, as the season comes to a close. But I don't think the difference is maybe necessarily as indicative certainly as that early August game. That was a 30 point blowout for sure. Yeah.
- [49:05]
Sabrina Merchant
And I think you're absolutely right that that score and that game particularly just stands out to me because of the control I felt that the Liberty had of the game versus the other games. Right. It's been usually more even balanced, but it just seemed like the, the Aces were losing their identity in that game in comparison to the others. But yeah, I agree with exactly what you're saying. There's a lot of good things happening around the league when you've got faces and you've got things that people that fans can attach themselves to and get excited about and get revved up to go see. And these two teams have not disappointed. All right, we have reached the end of our very first episode. Amazing conversation, but we don't have to end just yet because I want to go off the script. This is my chance to say a little something that may not have anything to do with what we've already discussed on the show, but I think is still relevant to discuss when it comes to women's hoops. Today's off the script is inspired by a social media post and subsequent article from ESPN I saw this morning regarding a survey they did with WNBA players asking them to vote on what is the most pressing issue Facing the league right now. Now, before I reveal what that is, let's play the guessing game. Let's see if you can choose what they chose. I'm going to list out four choices and you think about it. First choice, A, team expansion, B, contract size, C, travel and D, roster expansion. Rewind if you need to hear them. Again, if you chose C, travel, great job. You and the average WNBA player think alike, according to espn, and you probably need to go call up the league office and ask for a job. A survey was done with 34 players according to ESPN, ranging from people in the MVP caliber to rookie status. And out of those 34 players, 18 players said that travel was the number one issue. While this might seem like a small sample, it's truly the only sample that matters. Yet it seems to continue to be drowned. Not purposefully, but it happens regardless by the likes of the fans across the country. Now, the athletic actually did their own survey too, but that's going to come out next week, so make sure you guys stay tuned on that. We actually surveyed more players and covered everything from who they think their favorite player is in the league to what are some of the issues facing the league. And travel, again, was a top issue. With this being the resounding call amongst players of things to fix, you would think it could be easily prioritized. Maybe not easily fixed, but easily prioritized. And yet, when you hear the WNBA commissioner talk in press conferences at halftime interviews and she's asked questions about what improvements are happening in the wnba, her answers are disproportionately about team expansion and roster expansion. And I get that because it's what the fans are asking for. She's not doing anything wrong by answering what the fans want because they need their support. But you can't forget about the players. They are the most important piece of this puzzle here. Without the players, without their feeling safe and supported and confident that they can come to work safely, dependably and reliably, you're not going to have a product to market and the fans won't have anything to cheer on. So you have to keep the players front of mind. And if they're saying travel, being able to get somewhere without a flight being canceled or delayed or someone harassing them as they're walking from their gate to gate, I mean, what are you really doing? Are you truly treating these players and these women as pro athletes and highly regarding them? I think not. So today I gotta go off the script and say, listen to these players when they talk about travel. And speaking of travel. We're gonna get into it in our next episode because it's a large conversation. Policies, conversations between the ws, NBPA and the league, horror stories from teams. Yeah, we're gonna dedicate some time but for now thank you so much for listening in. This has been the first episode of the Athletic Women's Basketball show and I'm your host, Zena Kada. Appreciate you tuning in and looking forward to the next.
- [53:48]
Zena Kada
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Chelsea Gray
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- [55:07]
Ben Pickman
ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.
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Sabrina Merchant
Remember blowing into a video game cartridge.
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Ben Pickman
Or taping songs off the radio?
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Jordan Canada
How about Saturday morning cartoons?
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Ben Pickman
Hey AOL chat rooms.
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Sabrina Merchant
Did we just age ourselves?
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Jordan Canada
Yep, we're Mike Fanoya and Charles McBee.
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Ben Pickman
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Sabrina Merchant
Are we old?
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Jordan Canada
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Sabrina Merchant
Are we old?
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Ben Pickman
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Kelsey Plum
Acast.com.