← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
WNBA Coaching Carousel Shockers, CBA Future?
00:55:05
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- [00:01]
Zena Kada
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- [00:12]
Ben Pickman
Sometimes 25.
- [00:13]
Zena Kada
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- [01:20]
Sabrina Merchant
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- [01:42]
Ben Pickman
There to watch em.
- [01:43]
Sabrina Merchant
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- [02:50]
Derek
Love.
- [02:51]
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- [04:56]
Ben Pickman
For the athletic I'm Zena Kaeda and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. Welcome back to the Athletic Women's Basketball Show. As you know, this is where we talk all things women's basketball. And of course the WNBA season just closed out. There was a lot of fanfare if you were in the Mecca of basketball up in Brooklyn, New York. The parade went down. We're Going to talk to Ben Pickman, who was on site for the event and talk all things parade. We're also going to get into a little bit of some news around the association, some coaching, cycling in and out. This is very interesting. We're going to talk about what that landscape looks like as well as the cba. No surprises on the opt out, but what does that really mean? I feel like that's just been floating around and we don't really, really know. Of course, I've got Ben Pickman and Sabrina Merchant here to break it all down for us. So Ben, gather all the energy you may have left in your body after this morning and tell me about this parade. It looked amazing from Twitter or X.
- [06:13]
Derek
Well, the first thing I have to correct you, Zena, because the parade was not actually in Brooklyn. This parade was in the Canyon of Champions. This is the kind of classic parade spot in New York City, starting down by Battery Park City, working its way up to City Hall. It's around a mile in length and it's basically the parade spot where the Yankees, when they win World Series, the Mets, The Giants, the U.S. women's National Soccer team, like this is the classic quintessential New York City parade spot where people are in these high rise buildings and they're looking down and dropping confetti and you have all these parade floats. There were 10 floats in all today and players kind of scattered across the floats, you know, in different kinds of groupings.
- [06:54]
Ben Pickman
Leave it to the west coaster to not know exactly where, exactly where this is. But wait, before you keep going, I just want to give a quick shout out. You said that this parade started in Battery Park. Sabrina, you've got a tie to that area. Tell us a little bit about that.
- [07:12]
Alicia Clark
Yeah, my little niece and nephew go to the Battery Park City School, which was right where the parade started. And they spent part of their day on Wednesday making signs for the New York Liberty and getting really excited for the day. So they were telling me all about it and yeah, it's. What a great time.
- [07:26]
Ben Pickman
How freaking adorable is that? They dedicated the time of six year olds to making signs. MTA learned from this. Okay, that that half sheet printed sign at Liberty Ave. Stop is not going to do enough. You can literally go ask the 6 year olds at Battery Park City School to do a better job. All right, that's enough. I'm not going to cut out anymore. Ben, keep it going. Thank you.
- [07:52]
Derek
That's a strong take. So that was part one of the Liberty celebration because actually on Thursday evening they will Also commemorate the championship in Brooklyn at Barclays Center. So they are kind of, you know, taking the best of both worlds, best of both Burroughs approach here with this celebration by celebrating in New York in Manhattan, rather, on Thursday morning, and then back to Brooklyn at Barclays Thursday night. But, I mean, it was a pretty crazy scene, I think. Surreal. Like, everything so many people, players dreamed about and staffers just from catching up briefly with them or seeing them before. Like, it started early. The Parade started around 10, but players started kind of showing up, I want to say, around 9,30ish, filing into different floats. I learned, Xena, maybe you can provide some insight here that, like, some of these floats are branded. So Brianna Stewart, for instance, had a float that said Stew York City. It was basically a Puma float. It had the big Puma logo on the back. Whereas, like, Sabrina Unescu, she was on a Nike float because she is a Nike athlete and had a very cool Nike jacket that was going around on social media. You know, there was a float that was Niara Sabali, Leonie Phoebus. Chuck Schumer was on that same float. Tish James, a New York City politician. Like, it was a real funny grouping. Got a lot of energy. Ellie the elephant was also on that float. So that was a really popular float. I spent some time walking the parade route next to them. Ellie would jump off the route at different times and, like, charm the fans. I mean, tons and tons of people love Ellie. Not surprisingly. I'm happy to share about some of the Ellie stories from the City hall ceremony, too. All in all, like, a really high energy day. Some really cool signs, you know, a celebratory day for the New York Liberty, and I think, surreal for so many of them. The one other thing I would say, just on a slightly more serious note was, you know, New York, this was their first ever championship, first in 28 years of the franchise's existence. An original franchise. They had lost in five prior finals appearances. They did a really cool job acknowledging their history in their past. So Teresa Weatherspoon was there. Kim Hampton, Crystal Robinson, Vicky Johnson, they were all there. They each had their own float that kind of, you know, commemorated the history. Maddie, who was the original Liberty mascot, was on that float and also present at the parade. And then, you know, transitioning over to the ceremony at City Hall. Like, Teaspoon voiced a video over Clara. Wu Tsai, the team owner, shouted them out and talked about how, like, this title was one on their shoulders. Like, there was definitely a clear acknowledgment of Those retired players and trying to bridge history in the past to the present. So that was another kind of cool and distinguishing touch for the Liberty Parade on Thursday morning.
- [10:32]
Ben Pickman
That is awesome. I mean, one to back it up first on the floats. If you're a Warriors fan. As you guys know, I do cover the Warriors. Used to work for the Warriors. This is back when they won a championship back in 2018. We were selling the floats. We were selling sponsorships to the floats, and some of them are already built in. For example, if you never saw Kevin Durant and Steph Curry on the same float, it's because they're not under the same brand. The same thing with Sabrina and Brianna Stewart. But I loved, loved, loved, loved seeing Jonquil Jones with the finals MVP trophy just, like, losing her mind on her flow. I thought she was so much fun with the Bahamian flag as a cape. I just wanted to ask you, like, favorite moments, favorite sights and sounds that you saw throughout the route.
- [11:23]
Derek
One of the favorite moments I had was before the route, actually. It was Joe Psy asking Teaspoon to take a selfie with him. I thought that was kind of cool and pretty cute. Like, team owner Joe, like, went up to her and, like, asked for the selfie. I thought that was. That was kind of cool. Shout out to the kids. You mentioned Sabrina at the beginning. That was definitely cool. I mean, seeing at the very end, there was the City hall ceremony, which, you know, some of these ceremonies, some years have a lot of spice to them or a lot of trash talk. I would say this one was pretty tame on the, like, commemorative celebratory ceremony front. But at the very end, they kind of surprised everyone by bringing out Ellie. Now, everyone knew Ellie was there, but Ellie didn't appear throughout the entire duration of the ceremony until the very end when she was called out. And at the very, very end, Raz Golden Wude, who was emceeing the event, she kind of brought up, I guess, a Liberty player of their choosing to dance with Ellie. And Ellie gave her purse to Eric Adams, the mayor of New York City, as she entered into, like, a dance off with Kennedy Burke, the New York Liberty Reserve. That was definitely a funny moment that I will remember seeing kind of again. Ellie and Chuck Schumer. Like, Chuck Schumer had a sign that basically said that, like, he is Chuck Schumer. That he was holding. It was like, yeah, we know who you are. Like, it said, senator Chuck Schumer lighted up Liberty. And he would walk around holding it, and it was like, on his float and so juxtaposing Chuck Schumer on the same float as Ellie the Elephant. Like, I mean, two floats that needed extra security, let me put it that way, because Ellie might have been the biggest celebrity in the parade, and Chuck Schumer certainly has his own detail. So those are some. Some notes, too.
- [13:01]
Ben Pickman
Clearly, Chuck Schumer doesn't think that the audiences overlap, which is hilarious. I also want to shout out Sabrina Unescu's jacket and Clara Wu size jacket. Both fire, like, varsity type jackets. I know Nike made Sabrina's. I know. I don't know who made Claire was.
- [13:21]
Derek
Size, but off white. Off white. Hers is special edition partnerships that they.
- [13:24]
Ben Pickman
Okay, I saw the little. The sign. Okay, but oh, my God. Fire. Fire clothes. Just amazing energy throughout. And also really cool for Brianna Stewart, the only member of the New York Liberty that's actually from New York, which is kind of crazy.
- [13:41]
Derek
Let's just provide a caveat here. Like, she's not from New York City.
- [13:44]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, she's from upstate New York.
- [13:46]
Derek
She is from upstate New York. Like. Like, yes, she is from New York State. We will allow that. Like, as a native New Yorker who is born and raised in New York City, they are very different places and very different things. I give Brianna Stewart credit. Her first ever WMD game she attended was a New York Liberty game. She kind of blew up on the AAU circuit after a tournament performance in New York City as well. Like, she definitely has roots downstate, as we would call it, for people who grew up here. But, like, she is from upstate New York. They are not the same. You know, someone said she's a native New Yorker. It's, I guess, technically true, but, like, not true in the sense of how the phrase is used. So.
- [14:25]
Ben Pickman
All right, just for context, Ben, where are you from?
- [14:28]
Derek
I am from Manhattan.
- [14:30]
Ben Pickman
Okay? That's why you're firing shots right now, okay? Because it counts. All right? The lady has a New York license. Relax, Ben. It's okay. It's okay. I'm telling you, these upstate New Yorkers will be like, yeah, I'm from. I'm from New York. I'm from New York. You're all that. And the New Yorkers are like, absolutely not. Keep your Boone relations up there. No, I'm joking. I'm joking. I'm dying at the fact that there's this differentiation being made. But, yes, Stewie, a New Yorker until we get a Brooklyn Liberty. She is a New York emphasis on the New York Liberty player, and she's representing. So shout out to her for being able to have that special moment. Now we do have to get away from all the fanfare and festivities which will continue tonight. Ben, wish you luck on that, uh, because we got some business to talk about in the wnba. Ben, you mentioned Teaspoon being asked for a selfie with Joe Psy. Could that be a look into the future? Who knows? We gotta talk about this coaching carousel, folks. So over the last month or so since, or two months really, since the WNBA regular season ended, there have been some notable firings, particularly towards the bottom third of the wnba. Sabrina, walk us through them.
- [15:59]
Alicia Clark
Yeah, so the WNBA season ended on September 19th. We are currently recording this on October 24th. So just about five weeks to the day, I think, since the regular season ended. And five weeks, five coaches have taken the ax in the wnba. We started with Kurt Miller, the Los Angeles Sparks, bit of a shocker there. That was within days of the end of the regular season. Closely followed by Teresa Weatherspoon of the Chicago sky, as you mentioned mentioned, which, you know, incidentally left her loyalties pretty undivided when she got to root for New York Liberty during the WNBA Finals. So, you know, silver linings for Teaspoon. Shortly following Teresa Weatherspoon, Tanisha Wright ends up losing her job with the Atlanta Dream. She had spent three years in Atlanta, made the playoffs the last two. That apparently wasn't enough. Then Latricia Trammell from Dallas. On Friday, Game four of the WNBA Finals, they announced that she lost her job and that they are hiring a new GM in Dallas who will report to the current gm, Greg Bibb, who has taken on a larger overseeing role in the Dallas Wings operation. Lt was in Dallas for two years, made the playoffs the first year, but they were in the lottery this year. And then on Wednesday, we got the news that the Washington Mystics were letting go of both Eric Tebow and Mike Tebow, the head coach and general manager of the Washington Mystics, as they enter some kind of organizational re ideation of what's happening in Washington. So that's five coaches, two GMs, all of the lottery teams undergoing major shakeups. And keep in mind that all this is happening while who we presume to be one of the hottest coaching candidates on the market, Natalie Nakase was already hired by the Golden State Valkyries to be their inaugural head coach. So lots of movement.
- [17:33]
Ben Pickman
All right, before we get into even more news about hot coaches and where they might land, because there's even more news on that front, I want to ask both of you what is inspiring these big time moves is this, the new age of the wnba, everything's getting. I don't know if it's getting more competitive. It's always been competitive, but there's just been more eyeballs on the competition. So the room for error is just so minimal. What do you think is the galvanizer behind these organizations saying, we gotta let you go?
- [18:04]
Derek
I think it's a really, really good question, and it's honestly one that I think Sabrina and I are trying to ask more people about and learn more about. You know, I think Cheryl Reeve, the coach of the Lynx, she kind of started to talk a little bit about this during the finals themselves, where she was reflecting on the wave of firings, and she said, like, are we in unprecedented times? Like, are we in this time and space where people want to capitalize and feel like they need something different? Like, I think there is some truth to that idea that, you know, more people are paying attention, more ownership groups are paying attention. There might be higher expectations. Like, people might just care from, like, a business standpoint. And as a result, like, people voice their opinions from way up high, and decisions get made on head coaches as a result. Like, I think big picture, that is definitely a possibility. I think, though, like, if you asked, you know, executives at each of these teams individually, they would all kind of, like, kind of go case by case. Like, I think it's fair to draw the through line. I just started to draw, but, like, what's going on in Chicago feels very different than what's happening in Los Angeles, for instance, or the situation in Washington. Right. Like, those decisions are made in very different contexts about, like, where those organizations are in terms of their own life cycle. And so the five that have been, you know, let go. And those five openings, it's a high mark. It's crazy. It's eyebrow raising, especially because there's only 12 teams heading on. 13 in the league, 13 in the league. Like, it feels like so many, and it is. But, like, I think we all. And the league is kind of wrestling, like, why are there so many moves getting made? Is it each case individually wanting a change, or is it some real big, strong, overpowering broad trend? It's a little bit of an open question still, Zena.
- [19:54]
Ben Pickman
Oh, absolutely. And I agree with you in that every single firing could have had different explanations for it. Right. Especially considering where some of these teams ended up. Sabrina laid it out beautifully of, you know, Tanisha Wright taking her team to the playoffs two years in a row, but it, quote, not being enough. Right. One organization might be content with that right. The Sparks might have been content if Kurt Miller had taken the Sparks to the playoffs two years in a row. You look at Latricia Trammell in Dallas, being able to take the Dallas Wings to the playoffs last year, having I think a good showing in the playoffs last year, but not being able to go back next year. Satu Sabley was injured. Like is that her fault that her main core wasn't together for majority of the year? But it's not enough. There's no excuses. So every, every single team, there's an individual take you can have on why these coaches were fired. My question is, where the heck are you going to find the talent to fill them? Because if we look at the pattern across pro sports, it is usually you take one from another and you fill it somewhere else, right? It's always this very kind of incestual pool of let's just grab from someone else or for grab from the assistant coaching pool of another successful coach. You saw that with Natalie Nakase, with the Golden State Valkyries, coming from Becky Hammond, two time champion in the wnba, back to back. Cool. You got great talent. But now it's like, are they just all gonna switch spots?
- [21:26]
Derek
I don't exactly think so, but I think the talent pool question is another one that like people around the league are like giving pause to because like there aren't a ton of like hot names, hot candidates that immediately come to mind. Or it's a lot of the same names, but like not that many. I guess at the top of many people's lists, like Natalie Nakase was definitely like someone who had been talked about for years. She had been a finalist for the Mercury job a few years back and obviously had a ton of success in Las Vegas as Becky Hammond's top assistant. You know, I think one of the questions that people have now is how are these jobs going to get filled? Are they going to get filled by former WNBA players who are still coaching on WNB staff? Are they going to get filled by, you know, coaches, someone like a Katie Smith, for instance, who was a head coach briefly in the New York Liberty during their downtime in Westchester, then went to Minnesota, has been with Cheryl Reeves since then, and is the kind of person who, you know as a second time head coach could get some looks? Are they going to get filled by NBA coaches, assistants, someone in the G League, someone like Nate Tibbets for instance, who you know, had no WNBA experience before he took over and got the Phoenix Mercury job? Like that I think is also the question that a Lot of people are wondering is, you know, what are the kind of buckets that these teams are looking at? I mean, you heard Ohemanian, the president of the Golden State Valkyries, she kind of talked about how when they were going through their, they were looking at WNBA people, they looked at some NBA people and they looked at international people. Now, we didn't get specific names as to who exactly they were looking at, but I thought it was at least noteworthy enough that like, they weren't just looking at people in the wnba. And so look, as we look at these five jobs, sure, they could, you know, hire people for a second chance. And I'm sure some of those coaches who got let go would want second opportunities in different situations, especially some of them who might have gotten, you know, a year or two or three years in their last spots. But, like, it wouldn't shock me if some of these jobs get filled by coaches who have never been, you know, coached in the WNBA before. That, I think is the big question if we want to highlight one job in particular. Sabrina, maybe you have some thoughts here. Washington, to me is a super interesting situation overall. Right. Because they just made their decision this week, a month after the regular season has ended, as Sabrina said. And they're, you know, changing everything. Not just coach, but also Mike Tebow, who was once the winningest coach in regular season WNB history. He's also out from his, you know, executive role, calling the shots from a team building standpoint. And that decision was made by someone named Michael Winger, who in May of 2023 was hired to oversee Monumental Basketball. That's the sports group that, you know, owns the Wizards, it owns the Mystics and the Capital City, Go Go Washington, the NBA team's G League affiliate. He has no WNBA experience. You know, he was a GM at the Clippers before he joined Washington. So like, with that job, you know, does he install someone from the NBA? Does he install two people from the NBA? Like, what is the network he's tapping into? It's a super interesting job. Along those lines, really quickly on that.
- [24:24]
Ben Pickman
Note, the capital City Go Go just hired a head coach who's never coached professional or semi professional basketball. So that also gives you an idea. Jonathan Wall was a former agent, a lawyer, a Harvard Law School graduate. Very different than your typical hiring for a G League team. So that could be an indication of where he could go with the W team.
- [24:46]
Derek
We should also say very different than the John Wall that most people associate with the Washington franchise that was going viral when he was hired.
- [24:55]
Alicia Clark
I mean, you don't have to be a G league franchise to hire someone with no experience coaching professional basketball, as you know, teams in my current city can attest to.
- [25:03]
Ben Pickman
But I think shout out Lakers. Okay, go ahead.
- [25:07]
Alicia Clark
I think one, you know, Ben mentioned all those buckets that Ohema had talked about at the Golden State search. And one of the buckets we haven't talked about yet is college coaches. And you know, you think about where the vast majority of eyes and interest and money has been in terms of women's basketball and that has been in college basketball in recent years. And we're experiencing some of that enthusiasm translating into the wnba. But it really begs the question of when is that money going to translate to the wnba? Because if these WNBA coaches want to attract good college coaches, it's going to require a level of investment that we just really haven't seen on the WNBA side. Like we've gotten reports that Becky Hammond makes about a million dollars per year. Nate Tibbets became the highest paid coach in the WNBA at 1.2 million last year. Like if you're trying to attract a first time head coach, it's going to require something in that neighborhood to get them to leave college because of the money that's been in the NCAA system versus the money that's been in the WNBA system. And you know, Ben was talking about the pool for most of the last like decade or so of the wnba, it was one head coach and two assistants on a WNBA staff. So it's not like you're creating a lot of growth opportunities for potential future coaches if you only have two assistants on each staff. Now that number has expanded to three, provided that one of those assist assistance is a former player. So there are potentially more people in that pool. But you know, you talk to people around the league, you look at the people who are sitting on these benches. It's not as if there's a ton of experience, there's a ton of obvious names in this, you know, coaching hire. Especially when you consider you have five jobs opening and you know, the fact that two of them opened a month after the regular season ended when both of those teams did not make the playoffs is just so interesting when you think about what kind of decision making is happening. Like, what did you learn in the last month that you didn't know at the end of the regular season that caused you to make these decisions? But that's a different question.
- [27:02]
Derek
We should also say, like, when we talk about candidates and perspective, you know, people who these teams might hire, like there are A lot, a lot of really good basketball coaches out there who, you know, at various levels. And I think normally when we talk about like, quote unquote, hot candidates or names go around, it's people like the lack of people with a ton of WNBA coaching experience or had coaching experience or people who like, have gotten interviewed cycle after cycle. Because, like, that is like, there are people on staffs who will not be head coaches this cycle who aren't getting looked that are very good coaches. Like, there is a little bit of a distinction there. And this is where, like, you know, we are only, even as people who talk to people around the league, like Sabrina and I, like, we are not privy to everyone's strength. What is everyone like as a communicator? What is everyone like in a meeting room? Like, what is everyone like as a leader? Like, there are like, there's only so much information that we can gleam from not being there. And so, you know, I think we kind of see like some, there might be some surprising hires that get made, some names that come out of left field, so to speak. I would just urge people, like, not to make a rash judgment of, is this a good hire, is this a bad hire? Like, what is this team doing? Because we don't necessarily know, like, all the information on someone who is being hired or how they present during an interview process either. So I would throw that in there too.
- [28:29]
Ben Pickman
That's a really good point. That's a really good point. And you'll never know until you talk to the players. And I think when you ask that question, Sabrina, of like, what did you learn in the last month? I'm curious about that too, because exit interviews happen immediately, right? It's not as if this is like a dragged out process that they're just now catching up with Satusabili to be like, hey, what did you like about.
- [28:50]
Alicia Clark
She was really busy watching the New York Liberty playoff run.
- [28:53]
Ben Pickman
So just now, the only person, not.
- [28:55]
Derek
Just the playoff, not just the playoff run. She was at the parade on the float with her sister and some of her sister's teammates.
- [29:01]
Ben Pickman
She was making tiktoks on the back of the parade float with her sister. I mean, that is some, that's some baller stuff.
- [29:09]
Alicia Clark
It's tampering.
- [29:12]
Ben Pickman
None of that.
- [29:13]
Alicia Clark
She's free agent. Let's be clear.
- [29:15]
Ben Pickman
It's true, it's true, it's true. But yeah, it's, it's, it's very interesting to be like, who are you talking to? What did you examine? Or maybe is it what we're thinking, which is, did you do research before you decided to make your decision to see on what could be possible before you said, you know what, let's go a different direction. My interest is the international game, you know, especially the year after an Olympics. Could there have been some coaches on international staffs that pop up, you know, is Sandy Brondello putting out some names from the Australian team? Right. That's going to be very interesting to me. Now I'm going to put you guys on the spot and I'm going to ask you for a bold prediction instead of a hot take. Bold prediction, anyone? For any coaching position out there where someone could be potentially placed, I will start. Mine's going to be like, not that bold, but I think Teresa Weatherspoon ends up on Becky Hammond's staff in Las Vegas. Very random. But the whole criticism around Teresa Weatherspoon was she needs more experience with the X's and O's and being under Becky Hammond, who now has a vacancy to fill, I think that could be a really great spot for her to land. Sabrina, ladies first.
- [30:29]
Alicia Clark
I'm gonna delay on this for a second because I want to bring up one of the bolder reports we've gotten recently, which is that Stephanie White, who is currently employed as a WNBA head coach. So congratulations to her as one of seven people who has a job right now. I guess eight counting Natalie. But Stephanie White has been in conversation with the Chicago sky about their open head coaching job for reports from the great Annie Costable of the Chicago Sun Times. But not just Chicago for their opening job. It's also for Indiana's job. And you notice I didn't say Indiana's open job because they have a head coach in Christie size. So kudos to Stephanie White's agent for leveraging the interest from Chicago to potentially get a better deal from Connecticut or, you know, just get her into a more interesting position for herself. I just have a real problem with when people interview for jobs that are already filled by somebody else. Like they always talk about this coaching fraternity and sorority and how they root for one another. And Cheryl Reeve is saying how it's always sad when you see somebody lose their job. And is it sad when somebody lose their job when you're the one that takes it away from them? I don't know. So I have some not so nice feelings about this report, which I don't doubt the veracity of by any means. Stephanie White has a history of coaching in Indiana. Objectively speaking, the Indiana job is a better job than the Connecticut Sun Job. There is no getting around that. Just based on the investment from the organization and, oh, yeah, the talent that you get to coach with the Indiana Fever. But, God, interviewing for a job that somebody else has when I think they did a pretty decent job this year is. It's tough. It's tough. So that would be pretty bold, I think, if Stephanie White were to take the Indiana Fever coaching job and then Kristy Zides, you know, just exits into the wind, and it would not only.
- [32:19]
Ben Pickman
Be crazy, it would be a new page in the WNBA because of her. Yeah, it's very pro sports of her. Right. I feel like the WNBA has been a little bit in the bubble of we're going to be nice in this space of getting jobs and getting positions and things that sort the second you rip that band aid off, of taking someone else's job. Oh, the WNBA has arrived, folks. Now it's Caddy, now it's Messi, now it's who's going to be up for the job and people really fighting for it, et cetera. And that's why I feel like all these firings are kind of alluding to this new era of the WNBA just, I don't know, stepping up its grittiness. You got to really survive in this league. Now.
- [33:02]
Alicia Clark
Just before Ben gets to his prediction, I just want to say it's. It's weird to me that we're. We're stepping into this era of, like, teams eating the money to pay these head coaches, but it's all the teams that we would consider like to be the cheaper ones in the wnba, like Phoenix, eating money a lot, Las Vegas, New York. Like, I could see that. But, like, these are the teams that we don't consider to be investing the most as it is. So for them to be going through these situations where they're paying multiple head coaches at once, I find that fascinating.
- [33:28]
Ben Pickman
Very true. Ben.
- [33:30]
Derek
Let's be clear here. Sabrina didn't.
- [33:31]
Alicia Clark
Sabrina didn't make a prediction.
- [33:32]
Derek
She didn't make a prediction either.
- [33:33]
Ben Pickman
She said Stephanie in Indiana. No.
- [33:36]
Alicia Clark
So I guess let's actually make a prediction out of that. Christy Sides will be the next coach of the Atlanta Dream.
- [33:41]
Ben Pickman
Oh, okay. Y'all are getting bold. Ben, step it up a notch. Come on. That's a good one.
- [33:47]
Derek
No, I appreciate Sabrina then making a prediction. I'll go. Katie Smith. Who? The Lynx assistant I mentioned. She becomes the next head coach of the. See Atlanta, definitely. She has some history with the general manager down there, Dan Padover, who was in New York for a while. I'm going to say she becomes the head coach of the Dallas Wings, though. I think that that fit makes some sense.
- [34:11]
Ben Pickman
Okay. All right, this is exciting. We'll see where all of this pans out. It will be a while right before we actually know when do you think some of these announcements are going to start happening?
- [34:21]
Derek
I think teams that are smart are going to make those announcements sooner than later. Right.
- [34:27]
Ben Pickman
There's an expansion draft coming.
- [34:28]
Derek
It's not even about that. It's more just like if you know who you want and you want to get the person who is your top priority, you probably shouldn't wait very long to hire them. Right? Like, I think that goes back to the idea of what Washington and what Dallas, just what were they doing waiting a month to make their decisions? Because, you know, you can question what LA did and I think it's fair to wonder, like, you know, was Kurt Miller, like, was he ever put in a position to succeed? Right? Like, like, you know, he had a rebuilding team, he had a young team that he seemed to get a good amount out of considering who was on the roster. But at least, like, they made that decision right after the season. So the Sparks who hired a search firm gave themselves a long time to figure this out, or at least more time than say, Dallas and Washington, who, like, are basically a month behind in their process right now. Like, that's the, that's the part that's kind of puzzling, right? Like they've just ceded a month of interviews, of research, of. Of all that stuff. So, you know, we'll see if they make hires before Atlanta and Chicago and LA do. I would be pretty surprised though if they did.
- [35:38]
Alicia Clark
And also Atlanta, Chicago and LA each still have general managers in place who can at least handle the mechanisms of the expansion draft, whereas Washington and Dallas don't. And theoretically this is a very important front office decision making time because although, like technically your only job is just to pick six players to protect, if you are trying to map out the future of your franchise, kind of important that you know which players are going to be a part of it. And also if you can, you know, conduct any trades or deals with Golden State to make sure that you get to keep any players beyond that, I would love to have a general manager in place for the expansion draft. That's just me. But then that kind of delays the process of hiring a head coach, right? Like, you also want a general manager before you hire a head coach and then you're even further behind the eight ball when it comes to the other three Teams that are still looking. Not to mention, I'm sure Toronto and Portland are looking right now, too.
- [36:25]
Ben Pickman
I was just going to mention them, too. They are absolutely in the mix of this. And talking about hiring a head coach before you hire a general manager. Take Chicago sky and does not work out. It doesn't work out. The Chicago sky literally just had this happen. Clearly, definitely not the steps you want to take.
- [36:41]
Derek
You got to think, too, along the lines of Portland and Toronto. Like, if you are a prospective candidate who, you know, might be looking at an opportunity or might get some looks, like those jobs might be better jobs for a lot of different reasons than some of the jobs currently on the marketplace. Right. Like, think about this idea of stability. Like, I think that is one of the things that is shaking a lot of people up and a lot of coaches up right now. Because, you know, Teaspoon gets one year. Kurt got two years in LA. Like, a lot of short 10 years. Tanisha Wright, I think three years. Right. In Atlanta. Like, a lot of these, like, quick decisions. Latricia Trammell, two years in Dallas. Like, Eric Tebow, two years in Washington. If you're a young head coach or a young prospective head coach who's looking for their first job, you know, in theory, we could be totally wrong, but in theory, like, the Portland expansion franchise is not just gonna hire someone and get rid of them after one year, or they're not gonna get rid of them after two years. Like, they're gonna give them at least a little bit of time to figure things out, to build a culture to. You know, I would hope if these organizations at least want to have success. Like, they're not just gonna make rash decisions over and over again. And so, like, maybe it's smart to wait if you think, like, you would rather work there and you think you can get that job. Like, I think that's the other question from a coaching and, like, a coach's agent's perspective that I'm sure some candidates are also asking themselves.
- [38:09]
Ben Pickman
Absolutely. I'm gonna wrap this up. Just. This is not actual news, guys. This is just something I saw on X, and I thought it was hilarious. Um, so I think right after Latricia Trammell was announced, I saw a tweet of someone saying that Eric and Mike Tebow were kind of just sitting up in Washington kind of laughing, because obviously Eric is Mike's son. And Eric's like, I'm good. Like, my dad is not gonna get rid of me. And then, boom, the news drops, and it was just like, wow. The just cutthroat. It's cutthroat out here in the wnba. Whoever they hire next, all of these teams, it's clear they're doing it to level their organizations up. It's clear that it's trying to stay on par with the competitive landscape. And I think absolutely the points of money being such a factor in this, there are more eyeballs on this from businesses, investors, et cetera, that they want to make sure they get their return on investment. So this is going to be a very interesting conversation that we will definitely keep touch with with throughout the college season. We'll make sure that when we have our little WNBA roundups throughout the college season that we keep pace on this as well. All right, let's shift it to the cba, because I feel like the CBA has been this thing floating around above our heads. Oh, if they opt in off if you know they're probably going to opt out, the players are going to opt out, they want more, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But like, what does that really mean? All right. What does this really mean if the players opt out? We saw, you know, the wonderful documentary, which of course, I'm forgetting the name, with NECA and Stewie and Jonquil Jones discussing the importance of the CBA and just what the recent CBA was able to do in terms of rights for mothers, rights for players, just different resources and increases in pay that the last CBA was able to provide players. Now they've just opted out of this upcoming cba. I'm going to allow our reporters to break it down in more detail so that we can understand what is at stake. So, Ben, explain to me a little bit, kind of bridge the gap between the last CBA to this one and why it was so important for the players, the decision that they made to opt out.
- [40:28]
Derek
Yeah, so the last CBA went into effect on in January. January of 2020 was when it was signed and it ran as it was signed through 2027. But either party, the league or the players association had the opportunity to opt out by November 1st of this year. And basically what that opt out decision triggers is that the current CBA is now set to expire on October 31, 2025. So after next year, and the players association and the league will have more than a year to to negotiate a new agreement that will then come into effect for the 2026 season. So that's kind of the short, like, bullet point of it all. It's not a surprise that the union announced on Monday, the day after the championship, that they were opting out of the CBA because you think about how women's basketball has changed since 2020 to 2024, like, the league is in a totally different financial situation. The television deal that has come into effect, like, you know, there's a $2.2 billion TV agreement that is, you know, set to take hold over the next couple years. It's an 11 year deal. Like, that's a lot more money that will be injected into the league and trickle down through various teams. So the fact that we got to this point, that is why Xena, none of this is really a surprise because of how much the landscape has shifted since 2020, when the last deal was put in place to the present day.
- [42:02]
Ben Pickman
Now, understanding that all of these new aspects around the league can impact how players are treated, the resources they have, access to, the rights that they have to exercise as athletes within this association, I'm very curious as to what kinds of things could they be negotiating in this upcoming year? What kind of topics are going to be important for them to bring forth before the league?
- [42:28]
Alicia Clark
If we think of 2020 as sort of the players ensuring that the league invested in them, you know, that they had the maternity protections, that they were able to have one room for veterans on the road, you know, that they had potentially more compensation coming their way via bonuses and via marketing agreements and just sort of securing their footing within the league. Now it's, oh, well, we've grown the league and we want to benefit from the growth of the league. I think that's sort of the goal of this new negotiation with the league. And if you look at the priorities that they've outlined, based on the pa, it's retirement benefits, you know, player salary is a new economic model that ideally changes the way the salary cap works and allows players to again make more money from what the league is clearly doing. Because, you know, the league actually instituted sort of a revenue share in the 2020 collective bargaining agreement that allows the players to share in the revenue from the league itself. It's just that because of the targets that were set and the fact that the league basically brought in no revenue in 2020 and most of 2021, because of the pandemic, they just never hit those targets. And so now it's okay, well, how do we redesign that so that the players are not still fighting back from all these years of downtime for the league and actually getting to benefit from what is an influx of cash and endorsements and media deals and all of that. So the players, like, they have a lot to work with here, right? Like, there's clearly a clear sign of investment and interest into the league. The league can counter with, well, hey, we gave you charters, we doubled playoff bonuses, yada yada yada. I'm sure the players also want to revisit prioritization because that was sort of the carrot that they had to accept from the league in exchange for all of the benefits they got back in 2020. But I think it's a lot more interesting of negotiation this time because both parties can come to the table with, hey, we've done so much in the last five years. This is how we feel we should benefit from the growth and from the.
- [44:25]
Derek
Player side, like they are really stressing that like the league and the WNBA can't afford to stand still. That was kind of the phrase that Neko Gumente used in the official release that the PA put out that like, if we stay in the current agreement, we fall behind, right? Basically like that today's price is not tomorrow's price and that the league is evolving at such a pace that changes need to be made. And so some of the issues that they're prioritizing, you know, they list it a new economic model, you know, they're talking about introducing an equity based model that grows and evolves in step with the league's business side. Now the question is, does that involve something like changing the revenue sharing structure of the wnba? Does that involve, you know, equity? As in like what unrivaled has. It was actually a question that, you know, I asked Kathy Engelbert about too at her pre finals press conference, you know, talking about unrivaled investment in player equity or talking about like how NBA players can now actually invest in WNBA teams, which is kind of interesting after their most recent cba. Just not teams that like are owned also by NBA owners. Other priorities from the pa, player salaries. They want to talk about clear distinctions between salaries and bonuses and ensuring players receive wages that, you know, properly reflect their own wages. Now we should say, like, to Sabrina's point about how the league has kind of shifted, I want to say that after the last CBA was signed, that was the first time that like the average salary for a player was going to be six figures, like more than six figures. So like, you know, they're asking for more and more like more value right now to be, you know, paid in a way that reflects their values. But like the league has also come a long way over in recent years. Like, you know, that's one of the big changes here at Play two, minimum professional standards was another priority that they have retirement benefits and then family planning and pregnancy benefits. That was something else that was really important in the last cba. But it is the kind of thing that will again be important because there are ways that like this current CBA was really progressive and ahead of its time in terms of providing those benefits. But like it says for instance that players must have played eight years, for instance before 20,000 benefit for family planning services. Like egg freezing kicks in. Right. Eight years is a long time to play in the WNBA for that one benefit to kick in. So while it's great that that benefit is in the cba, like how many players are really tapping into that benefit because you have to meet an eight year threshold, my guess is probably not many. So that's when we talk about like revisiting some of those benefits that are already great and in the current agreement that's another thing they hope to change going forward.
- [46:57]
Alicia Clark
I mean, so you think about like Brianna Stewart who has two kids and has not been able to utilize this benefit yet because I was just going to say had just finished her eighth year in the league. Yeah.
- [47:05]
Ben Pickman
There's so many players that already have children that are not able to tap into this based on the. I mean Derick Hamby, Nafiza Collier, Brianna Stewart, like that's absolutely crazy. Okay, so I'm still kind of stuck on Ben, shout out to you today's price, not tomorrow's price. That just remind me of. Think of yesterday's price, today's price. But anyways, great quote. I want to know who's involved in these conversations. So obviously the wnbpa, the Women's National Basketball Players association, will be interacting with the league. But how does the WNBPA gather information from the players on what is important and what to prioritize?
- [47:50]
Derek
Yeah, so the WNBPA has an executive committee. It includes people like the president, who is Neko Gumike, the first vice president, who's Kelsey Plumb. Alicia Clark is a vice president. I want to say Brianna Stewart is another vice president. So there are a number of different positions. Elizabeth Williams and Brianna Turner in Chicago. They have some senior roles. Then there are player representatives. And so each team has two player representatives across the league. Then as this process went on, there was also an advisory committee of people who are not currently like on affiliated with teams who were also, you know, providing information and resources to the people at the pa. So that includes like a Nobel Prize winning economist or you know, an auditor and former FBI agent, a sports business professor. Like different people across the sports business world were other voices that the PA looked at. And I believe they also did like, I want to say some surveys or you know, they've solicited their membership too to try and come up with some of these like priority lists to try and you know, broaden or create as broad of a sample as they could and get as much information as they could, you know, to make this decision. You know, they kind of said that this decision was made following the advice and recommendation of an advisory committee comprised of like leading experts from various fields and that includes, you know, the business field and the basketball field. So that's kind of how they ensure like how they reach this decision.
- [49:16]
Ben Pickman
That's amazing. I did not know that. I imagine that the priorities that we'll, we'll see from these rookies and second year players are significantly different than, you know, the Dewana Bonners of the world that have played 10 plus, 12 plus, 13 plus seasons and on are on their way out and they have to be mindful of what does my life look like when I'm no longer playing basketball. And I don't want to go overseas to continue trying to make a check and I want to be able to live my life past that. But I'm also not in the space that maybe I don't have all of these marketing opportunities to be able to supplement my salary like these younger players. It's so interesting the vast array of different types of priorities that are like represented throughout the current league ecosystem. Okay, so this is going to be very fascinating. What's the timeline on this? Like you just said, they have a long ramp up, right? They have one full year, the deal ends 2027, but they opted out by the 22, 2026 season. So they'll have that one year. Correct. To be able to, to negotiate.
- [50:26]
Derek
No. So somewhat. Let me, let me just clarify. It's so like the old agreement could have run through 2027, but by their decision to opt out, the current CBA ends after next season. So October 31, 2025 is when ends. So what that means is in theory like the, if we're looking at like the scenario that I think a lot of people surely want to avoid, which is a work stoppage. Right. They basically have, I want to say 17 months to work out an agreement. Right. Because you think about how we get to that time page. You have 12 months from now to next October and then you have five more months until the spring and the start of what will be the 2026 season before games under a new agreement will take place. So, you know, there's definitely a long Runway here for the two parties to negotiate. You know, I had a union source tell me who, you know, that players are prepared to negotiate for as long as it takes to reach a new agreement, even if it means a work stoppage. Though I think like both sides do appear willing to enter these talks with good faith and they want to avoid a lapse in gameplay. So we'll see what happens. The good news is again that like there is, you know, more than a year, a year and a half of time before, like the question of will this negotiation cost the league games really, really come into play.
- [51:50]
Ben Pickman
I'm, I'm happy you broke that down because I was messing up all those numbers thinking 2026 season, but not. Okay, we're good now. All right, guys, ends after 2025 now because they opted out so the new contract would be in place for the 2026 season. Boom. I can learn. Guys, I'm with you. We're right here together. All right, Sabrina, what did you to add there?
- [52:12]
Alicia Clark
Well, I was just going to say, like, even though Ben says There is a 17 month lead in time, in theory, you'd want this done by the end of 2025 because there is so much league business that takes place between January and the start of the season. Like free agency takes place starting on February 1st and all of those contracts get decided in January. Two more expansion drafts potentially coming in with Portland and Toronto. When would those happen? Like, just the longer this takes, the more league business gets crunched into a smaller amount of time and I think, you know, they can get to the table right now to start negotiating this. It doesn't have to wait until after the 2025 season. So just given the momentum of the WNBA, you don't want any stoppage. Like you don't want off season stoppage. All of this off season stuff contributes to the WNBA's interest. So you want all of the business to be continuing as smoothly as possible. So, yeah, technically work stoppage doesn't happen until, you know, ball tips on May 1, 2026. But there is a lot that goes on before then that I think the league would rather get to.
- [53:09]
Ben Pickman
I love in the statement, the WNBPA acknowledging that the players are the business and they understand the importance of nothing really happens without them. So this is going to be very, very interesting to see how this all plays out again. Another thing that we're going to keep, you know, the word pulse on. I keep. I was like, what is the word? We're going to keep a pulse on this. I said pace earlier, but we're going to keep a pulse on this as well.
- [53:37]
Derek
One other thing that I think is kind of interesting about this negotiation compared to some others is some teams have changed ownership over the last four to five years, which provides some new voices into the conversation. Right. Some of these changes, like for instance, Clara, Wu, Tsai and Josiah technically became owners just prior to the last agreement being signed. But really, like, you know, they had been in the league for a full only like a year, around a year, I want to say, maybe even less before that last agreement was signed. Someone like in Atlanta, like, they've changed owners. Nadia Rawlinson is now the operating chairperson in Chicago, though, like, Michael Alter is still the primary owner. Like, she's the person on their board of governors. You know, she's come in over the last, I want to say, two or three years, certainly since the last agreement was signed. So you've been around.
- [54:23]
Alicia Clark
It's Phoenix, Mark Davis in Las Vegas, right?
- [54:27]
Derek
Yeah, Phoenix. A change. Mark Davis, like, you go through the league, like from an ownership board of governors standpoint on the ownership representation side, a lot of new voices now negotiating that agreement from their perspective. So it will be interesting to see what they bring, what ideas they have, how they kind of handle negotiating with the package for some of them. Like, these are people who have experience negotiating, you know, CBA agreements in other leagues. Mark Davis, you know, certainly comes from the NFL. You know, the size, have experience with the Brooklyn Nets. Like, there's just a variety of backgrounds there. So we'll see what happens. But that's another thing that I think makes this conversation and this negotiation a pretty interesting one compared to other CBA talks of the past.
- [55:07]
Ben Pickman
You know who I'm excited to have in this conversation? Joe Laco. Okay. Because Joe Lacomb is somebody that was part of the ABA before the WNBA was a part like instituted. He believed in this product. And I know he has a lot of thoughts on how to run a basketball team, a basketball league. He is a person throughout the NBA that is looked to for ideas on how to move the league forward within the way that he runs his organization. So lots of new thoughts. I'm sure Josiah has some thoughts on being find for allowing his players to be on charter planes. Like, I think he probably was shocked that that was the thing that happened. So, yes, very, very interesting just how expanded this conversation is going to be and there's going to probably be a lot of people that are surprised at some of the things that are in the current cba, and we'll want to work out ways to improve this for the players. So love that we'll be able to keep an eye on this throughout this offseason and then going into next season as well. But we got to wrap up, folks. And before I let Ben and Sabrina go, I want to ask them, guys, have you seen the new unrivaled teams this. The new six teams that they unleashed? I don't know. I got to get the full list up. But interesting names that came up for the 3x3 league that's going to be launching in January of next year. I'm not sure where the league names came from. I don't know if you guys had any insight on. On that.
- [56:31]
Alicia Clark
I have no insight on that.
- [56:32]
Ben Pickman
Okay. Oh.
- [56:33]
Alicia Clark
Unrival talk was a little dimmed while their two co founders were locked in some other business over the last two weeks, but I honestly was just expecting, like, Team Collier and Team Stewart.
- [56:44]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, me too.
- [56:45]
Alicia Clark
Plum.
- [56:45]
Ben Pickman
To me, no, they've got full branding, so. Okay. The six clubs are going to be called the Laces, which I was, like, a little too close to Las Vegas Aces, but.
- [56:54]
Alicia Clark
Yeah, but it's cute.
- [56:55]
Ben Pickman
But it's very cute. What? Laces? That's so cute. The Laces, the Mist, the Rose, the Lunar Owls, the Phantom, and the Vinyl. I wouldn't want to be a part of the vinyl.
- [57:07]
Alicia Clark
Just feel like that's partial to any logos that actually have a basketball in them. So the Vinyl, the Lunar Owls, and the Laces are all instantly, you know, up on my list. The Rose. I'm just getting very strong, like, Portland Thorns vibes, which is honestly going to be a problem for whatever happens with Portland's branding when they pick a WNBA team name.
- [57:26]
Derek
But.
- [57:26]
Alicia Clark
But it's interesting. I like that basketball club monikers. They're cute.
- [57:30]
Derek
And we're going to make a title pick right now based on just teams. Anyone want to make a prediction?
- [57:35]
Ben Pickman
I'm going Laces. I'm going Laces.
- [57:37]
Derek
Easy.
- [57:38]
Ben Pickman
I want Laces. I love that name, though.
- [57:39]
Alicia Clark
It would be very funny if, like, Chelsea Gray, Jackie Young, and Kelsey Plum all ended up on the Laces.
- [57:44]
Ben Pickman
Right?
- [57:45]
Alicia Clark
Oh, and Tiffany Hayes. Just make it all guards.
- [57:47]
Ben Pickman
Make it all guards. They can. They can.
- [57:49]
Derek
L. Apostrophe Aces.
- [57:51]
Alicia Clark
L. Aces.
- [57:52]
Ben Pickman
Oh, I know. Bam. Adebayo would love that. Um, all right, let's wrap it up. Definitely. Go check out the post on the Unrivaled page that breaks it all down. It's really cute. They do these, like really cool graphics where someone is like with a pen and pencil and paper actually kind of drawing out the graphics rather than like an animated thing. It's really cool, but definitely check that out. Excited for unrivaled, excited for the off season. We've got one more show before we really transition to the college landscape. I know college fans, y'all are like, come on, it is time to focus on our up and coming talent. But we got one more show. We're going to do a full debrief, postmortem, if you could say, of the wnba in which we kind of talk about the other teams that weren't in the finals. What are they going to do? What are some things they can do? What are they looking at? Who's a free agent, what's going on with their. All the things we talked about coaches today, but we want to look at the players, some moves, some things that they can work on for next season. And then college fans, I promise you we're going to be getting to that, bringing Chantelle Jennings in, all of the above. All right. For today. Appreciate you guys as always lending us your ear. If you haven't hit that subscribe button or if you've only been listening to us during the wnba, hit it, y'all. Because the college game, insane right now. And the way we cover college sports, I feel like that's actually our bread and butter even before the wnba. But now we're like, we're killing it on both ends here. Okay, definitely hit that subscribe button because you're not going to want to miss the show. We got a lot of interviews coming. As always, leave us comments if you have topics that you want us to talk about. If there's anything on the outlook, you know, for these upcoming off seasons. What do you have questions about? We want to answer that on behalf of Ben, on behalf of Sabrina. I'm Zena Cada. Just appreciate you guys listening to us. All the love you showed us throughout the WNBA Finals. We are so grateful and I'm encouraging you. Keep listening, keep watching, keep learning and keep loving the game because that's the only way we're going to keep growing it. Until next time.
- [60:00]
Derek
As we head into the playoffs. It's safe to assume there will be.
- [60:03]
Neko Gumike
A few calls made by the refs.
- [60:05]
Derek
That will be hard to accept. But you know what isn't hard to accept? Discover. Believe it or not, Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. You heard that right, 99%. So make a good call for your.
- [60:19]
Neko Gumike
Wallet and get Discover, based on the.
- [60:21]
Derek
February 2024 Nielsen report.
- [60:23]
Neko Gumike
Learn more at discover.com credit card this.
- [60:26]
G
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- [61:19]
Alicia Clark
Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend.
- [61:26]
Ben Pickman
Hey guys, we have an exciting announcement about our podcast.
- [61:30]
Derek
For the past seven years, the Holderness Family Podcast has been the most favorite thing we do.
- [61:34]
Ben Pickman
We love getting to talk to experts.
- [61:36]
Neko Gumike
We love having meaningful conversations just the two of us, and we also love hearing from you.
- [61:40]
G
But the thing we love most is.
- [61:42]
Derek
Being a place where you can laugh.
- [61:44]
Neko Gumike
A lot has changed in the last.
- [61:45]
Ben Pickman
Seven years and we feel very lucky that our audience is growing older with us.
- [61:50]
Derek
So in the spirit of that, we are relaunching our podcast. We are excited to introduce Laugh Lines with Kim and Penn Holderness.
- [61:57]
Ben Pickman
The Laugh Lines podcast will be all.
- [61:59]
Neko Gumike
About aging together better and also being.
- [62:02]
Derek
Able to laugh about getting older.
- [62:04]
Neko Gumike
We hope you'll join us.
- [62:05]
Derek
Search Laugh Lines with Kim and Penn Holderness New Episodes every Tuesday.
- [62:11]
Alicia Clark
ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere.
- [62:17]
Derek
Acast.
- [62:18]
Alicia Clark
Com.