← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
WNBA coaching carousel: where are the candidates?
00:39:12
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- [00:01]
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Zena Kaeda
There to watch them.
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- [04:39]
Ben Pickman
For.
- [04:39]
Zena Kaeda
The Athletic I'm Zena Kaeda and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball Show.
- [04:48]
Sabrina Merchant
Oh.
- [04:58]
Zena Kaeda
Welcome back to the Athletic Women's Basketball show where we are here to talk all things Women's hoops. I know third episode this week. We're spoiling you folks, but that's because women's basketball has a lot going on and we got to cover it all. Of course, NCAA kicked off this week. If you haven't heard, Chantelle and I kind of give that background, go back and listen to Tuesday's episode. But there's also other important things that are happening on the pro level that we've got to keep our eye on. Shout out to Ben and Sabrina, who are with me again today for a really cool interview with the Indiana Fever, new gym and new head coach. And I just want you guys to make sure you take a listen to that episode because it's very rare that you get an interview and then like a post game breakdown of the interview. Like it's, it's really cool to hear what they thought was interesting, you know, things that they, they learned in the conversation. It's always really cool to hear smart people break down their conversations too. So shout out to that. But today I got Ben and Sabrina back in the building because we got to continue this conversation around the coaches. If you've been on the site, you've realized they just dropped a really, they've actually been dropping a few pieces but today they dropped another piece regarding this coaches carousel and in the WNBA and why it's so hard to find a WNBA coach. It's been really cool just to see the production of this conversation league wide. But Ben and Sabrina went deeper into the conversation and talking to people within the landscape and really breaking it all down. So that's what we're going to talk about today. I want to talk to them about these articles that have been up on the site. If you haven't gotten a chance to read it, great, you're listening. You're already here. Ben, Sabrina, welcome back. Let's first get into what inspired these articles around the firing blitz in the WNBA and the pool of coaches that organizations are going to have to pull from. Was it the actual firings themselves? Was, were the tea leaves reading this? You guys were like, we might need to talk about this. How did this come about?
- [07:01]
Ben Pickman
Well, it's a topic that Sabrina and I have kind of been talking about for a little while now, even before the seven firings took place this offseason. And the reason was pretty simple. Like we cover the league, we know a lot of the key stakeholders. Like we are in these gyms on a day to day basis and like we know a lot about the player experience and I think so often kind of coaches and what they get paid and how long their contracts are and just like what goes into hiring them is kind of a black box topic. Like nobody really has done a lot of exploration into the coaching hiring process on like a grand macro level. Like we sometimes hear about individual hiring processes and who's interviewing where, but even there, like it's often very partial or incomplete. And so even entering this off season, Sabrina and I had been talking about like let's try and explore in a little bit more depth like the coaching landscape and trying to like understand the marketplace. And so that was kind of the general impetus heading into this winter or heading into this fall, I guess behind these two stories that we reported out. And, you know, it just so happened that like, as we continue to report it out, more and more coaches, unfortunately for them, like, lost their jobs. And it kind of sparked even more conversations from the ones we were initially having.
- [08:19]
Zena Kaeda
It seems like the conversations that you have in the article where you spoke to a lot of people under anonymity seem to be very candid and the feelings that they expressed around why this may be happening, who organizations might be pulling from in order to get new coaches. Do you feel as if that candidness has only grown because of all of the firings? Like, if it was just the non playoff making teams getting fired, do you think that people would have had the same sentiments around this firing spree that's essentially happening in the wnba?
- [08:51]
Ben Pickman
What I would kind of say, and I will protect, you know, the sources that we did speak to, but like everyone we spoke to, whether it's for these stories or frankly, like just kind of an off the record conversations or just other conversations we've had throughout the postseason, like, there is a like a widespread, I think, sentiment of like, oh, snap, like I can't believe what's going on. Or like, okay, there's a lot of just general surprise as to what's going on and whether you're a GM or a president or a reporter or a PR person, a training staff. I think just like people around the league have all taken notice of, you know, all the kind of coaching carousel moves and everyone has kind of had an eyebrow raised as to why they're happening. And so like, depending on where you then work and who employs you and like, who you know, that then like, you know, informs the next conversations you have or who you're talking to about this. But like, I do think around the league, like, this has been a wave of moves that is hard to miss and that everyone has acknowledged, right. That like kind of everyone has had thoughts or like sought out answers on. And so that's why I was glad, like, we were able to talk to some of the people that we did and write some of the stories that we did because, like, they provide at least some answers or start to provide answers to questions that kind of everyone, whether you're on Twitter or whether you're a GM or an agent has kind of thought about with all the moves that have happened this fall, what's interesting.
- [10:17]
Sabrina Merchant
Is because when we started reporting this, it was before a lot of the firings had actually happened. So.
- [10:23]
Zena Kaeda
Okay, okay.
- [10:23]
Sabrina Merchant
There was like some going back to the same sources, like, hey, can you believe this happened since the last time we spoke. Or, you know, it kind of at the same time, like, expands the pool of people we can talk to, but also calls it because maybe there was someone who I was about to speak with who now is involved in a search that they can no longer speak about. So it was just a really interesting process because, like Ben said, we've been talking about this since the end of the season, and we've mentioned this on the show how the front office changes have just continued to occur even a month out from the end of the regular season. So I do think that the pace of these things has made the reporting kind of interesting because we've had to almost restart conversations because the landscape keeps evolving as the reporting was happening.
- [11:08]
Zena Kaeda
I'm happy you said that because that's exactly. You know, I don't know if I phrase that question well. That's exactly what I was trying to get at is like, sometimes in all sporting leagues, when someone gets fired and their team didn't make the playoffs and it wasn't a rebuild year or your team wasn't decimated by injuries or something like that, you're kind of like, yeah, that makes sense. Like, you weren't doing a great job. But you saw all of that, and that's what you guys laid out so beautifully, is there's so many buckets and categories in which these firings and these dismissals, these partners parting of ways, I put that in quotes. There's been so many different ways to describe it, but there's so many buckets in which they all fall. So it is good to know that others were raising their eyebrows as well as us. So let's. Let's lay out all the categories that we've seen this off season, and then let's talk about, you know, what that looks like. Ben, Sabrina, you guys laid this out in your most recent article. What are we seeing right now in terms of the reasons why teams are dismissing coaches?
- [12:07]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah. So not only the article that came out on Thursday, but also the one that Ben published last week about just why. Why all these firings have happened. And I think that was before, like, even a couple of the hirings that happened. So again, the timelines are all just running into each other at this point. But I think, you know, there's a variety of reasons you mentioned. Like, sometimes it's just natural coaching life cycle. Right. Like, you were supposed to get better, you didn't get better. And we're gonna pin it on the coach. And I think that's kind of what you saw, like, in Atlanta, right? Like, or Atlanta was the number five seed in 2023. They fall to the number eight seed in 2024. We thought we were going to get better with the acquisitions we made of Jordan Cannon and Tina Charles. Time to let go of a coach, right? So I think there's, like, natural cycles of team building that sort of lead themselves to a coach wanting to get fired. You see that in, like, I think LA kind of fits this build where, like, we thought we were going to see more of a rebuild. We ended up losing nine more games than we did the year before. Like, it's lots of different things factor into this. But then I think WNBA wide, there's also this sense that the league itself is changing so dramatically, right? Like, the interest has gone up. Owners are probably being asked about this part of their investment portfolio more than they ever have been in their entire lives. Right. Like, it was previously you could be a WNBA owner and it was just like a thing, like a balance sheet rounding error that existed, like, in your, you know, list of ownership holdings, and now, like, there's actual stakes with it, right? Like, people are interested in the wnba, they want to know how things are going. And there's kind of like an embarrassment for an owner if you're attached to something that's not doing well. Right? So maybe that's kind of what happened in la, too, right? Like where Magic Johnson gets called out in this LA Times piece. Or you see what happened in. God, there's so many firings, I can't even keep track of all them. But, like, Chicago and Washington, you know, like, there's just a sense of, oh, people are putting more eyes on this product. We should be paying more attention to it. And, you know, the league itself is just going to change dramatically in one year's time when a new CBA comes into play. And every single player in the league basically, who's a veteran can, like, play musical chairs and go to a new team because everyone's contract runs out in 2025, that maybe there's a sense of, oh, we need to get ahead of that, at least have a coach in place before everything else changes in 2026. So let's get that taken care of this season and then focus on the player part of it next year. So I think just the massive shifts that are taking place in the league as a whole, you know, just relative to the national conversation and the fact that, like, the way they conduct business is probably going to change pretty significantly with the new cba. Makes it so that front offices want to have control of something now, right? And, like, this is the one thing that they can control is who's going to be the head coach. And so that's why we saw a lot of these decisions.
- [14:42]
Ben Pickman
You know, it very much is like other professional sports leagues. Like, I think that was really the sentiment that came across in talking to some people that historically, like, what we're seeing is obviously an anomaly in the wnba, but if you look at the NBA, if you look at the NFL, if you look at Major League Baseball, if you look at, like, you know, just league history, that when an owner's thumb is on the scale, the first thing to go is the coach, right? Like, you can't fire all the players. And so what goes, like, the coach goes. And that's kind of the unfortunate reality that so often coaches talk about, that, like, you get hired to get fired and that it's a job and a role with a lot of inst. And like the WNBA now is no longer an exception to that rule. You know, I think so often, like, we think about the college game, the women's college game, compared to the men, and we think about, like, some coaches who have been there 10, 15 years that, like, you wouldn't think have been there for so long, like, so often in the college game. And I'm interested to see in the future if we see more changes there, like some of these jobs, like, you don't have to win national championships to keep jobs. And I think, like, that was often the case in the W2, that, like, you didn't have to win WNBA titles or go on deep runs to keep jobs. And so most broadly speaking, like, with more people caring more and ownership caring more, changes have happened. And you know, that's obviously unfortunate for the coaches in these positions, but it will be really interesting to see big picture, like, widest scale if that continues to occur going forward.
- [16:20]
Zena Kaeda
One of the biggest things that I noticed what you're saying right now and also was in your article, was that one of the general managers said, you can't just be a good person and survive five to 10 years. And I read that and I was like, oh, if this isn't an indictment on the WNBA, ownership, coaches, GMs, like, you can't just be a. Let's go women. And you know, here's the investment. And no, no, no, you got to turn out some return on investment now. And you really have to invest in things like stability, in things like good coaching. There were so many elements of that so let's talk about stability and how does one grow stability in these roles when you've got people that are in the midst of rebuilds and working with new rosters or working with injuries and things that sort, how are they supposed to find stability if they 1 can't keep their job or 2 aren't able to stay long enough to develop their assistant coaching staff? Like, what was the conversation like with the folks that you guys talked about and the general sentiment about developing coaching talent within the current pool?
- [17:30]
Ben Pickman
It's a really good question, Xena. And if Sabrina and I were, you know, prospective head coaches interviewing, I think we would spin that question back at you playing the role of general manager to be like, what stability do we have as we enter this organization, right? Or like, as we think about this prospective job. Because, you know, I do think, like one of the things that a lot of assistants or just other coaches who are interviewing in this process have to ask about is like, how stable is this job and if we don't succeed right away, like, what is my leash going to be? You know, one of the things we reported in this story is that for a lot of coaches, the initial contract offer that they are given is like a two year deal or two year plus one deal at one year for a team option. And like those are short term deals, right? It like opens you up to, you have one year and if a team doesn't want you, they can just get rid of you and like, they'll pay out that one more year. But like, what is paying out one more year? It's not like you're paying out 20 or $30 million, you know, mid six figures as we reported out too. So like, that is definitely one of the big questions that I think people have now. There are cases like Kristy Size, for example, the old Indiana Fever head coach, she had agreed to a four year contract with the viewer. So in theory, like she had more stability or was given more Runway because like the job she was going into, you know, was a rebuilding job. And so getting four years meant like, in theory she thought she was going to be there four years or at least bakes in that, like you might struggle for some of those initial seasons. But I think as we're seeing now, like a lot of these positions are pretty tenuous and what it leads to, like the trickle down effect can be pretty broad. And maybe Sabrina wants to talk about this too. Like, not only is there a short term effect about creating instability in organization or shaking up culture, but it also doesn't allow, like, assistance to fully develop. It doesn't allow for this pipeline to fully develop for a future generation of coaches. We wrote about some of the, like, kind of mentor mentee relationships, and we're not seeing a ton of that anymore. Very rarely, like, are there these staffs in which multiple assistants get hired, Though of course, the Las Vegas Aces are one. So the trickle down of instability is pretty broad. And it is one of the reasons, I think, that this pool is pretty shallow league wide.
- [19:42]
Sabrina Merchant
Yeah, I think one thing we forget about when head coaches get fired is usually the assistants get completely recycled, too. Right. So you look at a staff in, like, Washington or Atlanta or, you know, Dallas, like, those assistant coaches probably aren't going to come back under the next leadership. And so you think of people like Latoya Sanders in Washington or, you know, Courtney Paris in Dallas, and, like, they're trying to learn how to become head coaches after, you know, their playing careers. And, well, if you only get two years under the bench and then a new head coach decides, like, they want to go a different direction, it's really hard to just develop the institutional knowledge of what to do in these situations. Right. So I think that's one thing that sort of continues to weaken the pool is like, when there's so much moving and shaking of the head coaching positions, the assistant coaches also get moved around that much, and it's harder for them to develop in those roles as well.
- [20:28]
Zena Kaeda
We're going to talk about the money in a second, because I know y'all listening are like, of course we got to talk about money. Money is important with these roles. But I also love that in the article, you talk about the fact that this used to be a situation in which owners would just go to the NBA. And sure, you see the hiring of Becky Hammond in Las Vegas. You see the hiring of Nate Tibbets in Phoenix. Sure, they worked in the NBA as assistants. They come over to the wnba. But it's obviously not as prevalent as it used to be. This was actually kind of a surprise to me. Cheryl Reeve saying, back then, it was the NBA guys that we had to sit and wait and learn from because we weren't that seasoned in professional basketball. Like, shout out to Cheryl Reeve sarcastically adding that, but is this not like, a positive, though, that now the pool is being expanded to the world of women's basketball. Is that a good thing?
- [21:19]
Sabrina Merchant
So I think the reason why she was so, I guess, dismissive of that idea at the start is because you basically have a bunch of franchises. Like, I think Six of the original eight franchises within their first three seasons. They're hiring an NBA former player, former coach, who has no experience in women's basketball, zero experience in women's basketball, to come in and lead their franchise, because that's. That's the person who's expected to teach us how pro games work, right? And there was definitely a, you know, an idea that a lot of NBA guys were just coming in because, like, they couldn't get jobs any longer in the NBA. So this was their place to sort of either restart their coaching career or, you know, get a job while they were just, like, keeping their name hot in NBA circles. And you see that a lot. Like, pretty much every franchise other than Cleveland, which, you know, folded pretty early. Houston, as well, had some men's coach whose only experience was in men's basketball, either as a player or as a coach. And, you know, sometimes this works out well. Like, Mike Tebow is obviously a big success story in this respect. Bill Laimbeer is a big success story in this respect. But you also get, like, the Derek Fishers of the world and Mugsy Bogues wasn't exactly super successful, and, you know, like, the names, like, you know, they come across. So I think part of it was like, oh, you know, Cheryl, we've also mentioned that, like, we had a lot of money to pay head coaches at the beginning, but it was all for men, you know, and that's why they wanted to come over, because they saw an opportunity in this new growing league that, like, hey, we can make some money, make our mark here, and then go back to whatever we want to do in the NBA. And once, like, the WNBA sort of experienced its contraction, right? Like, all of those franchises, I think six of them folded during the 2000s. Contracts started to go down, and you look at the ranks, and all of a sudden, oh, it's a bunch of women coaching again, right? So I think that was part of the stigma attached was like, NBA coaches were only coming to, like, improve their own hireability, improve their own personal brands. And now what you're seeing is, like, well, NBA coaches kind of see this as, like, a valid opportunity to just grow as a coach, right? Like Becky Hammond coming over. I mean, she had experience in women's basketball. Obviously, she was a player for a very long time. Tyler Marsh and Natalie Nicosta coming over as assistants first to, like, actually learn and grow as coaches before just taking jobs that, like, for potentially earmarked for someone else. I think Nate Tibbets is a different story, but seems to have gotten Good reviews so far in Phoenix, but I think there's just like kind of a difference in that this is like the WNBA is considered a valid place to grow and learn as a coach as opposed to just stepping stone on the way back to get my men's job.
- [23:35]
Zena Kaeda
You know, that is an evolution.
- [23:37]
Ben Pickman
I do though think like and GMs and like executives wouldn't say names or agents wouldn't say names here. I do think there is like a caution still of be aware of people who are being opportunistic. You know, like much like kind of the conversation that people have had around media or new fans or like people looking to get into something because it is like, quote unquote hot and like the cool thing to do. Like, I do think, you know, there is people in some of these hiring positions have to be and are being conscientious about, like, what are someone's motives for like wanting to get in the WNBA and like really trying to understand them. I think that's really important for, you know, when people are evaluating someone coming from the NBA or the G League, for instance, who might want to come to the W. It was crazy to.
- [24:23]
Zena Kaeda
Hear in your article that this free agency is going to be the WNBA's biggest. Yet only two players in the entire WNBA that are not on rookie skill contracts are signed to organizations past 2025. That's unreal. Like, that's going to be a free for all coming up. And now you've got to think about how much am I going to pay someone to come in and be a coach and be part of the attraction for these free agents to consider. There's money to be had, there's money around the league overall and there's gonna. And there's money that's coming in, but these numbers are still so low. I mean mid six figures. What's going to happen in terms of trying to increase that? Do the coaches have any, like, I don't know. I feel like with the CBA the players are going to have an ability to negotiate for themselves and be able to advocate for themselves to be paid more and get more resources. Do the coaches have any sort of advocacy for themselves to be able to get paid more in order to do these jobs?
- [25:22]
Ben Pickman
What I would say to the money question, Zena, is first and foremost, I'd make a plea to WNBA GMs and agents. Please let us know what your coaches are getting paid. We would like to know. We would like the terms of the contract. I mean, so often you see in the NBA like An outlet or reporters get that information pretty abundantly. And I think one of the reasons historically for that is so often it is like you're trumpeting that, like, Steve Kerr makes 17 and a half million dollars, like, that's great on his agent for negotiating that kind of deal. Whereas, like, in the wnba, I think people are a little bit more cautious about putting out there that my client or my coach only makes, and I say, like, only in quotes, like $500,000 a season. Right. Compared to, like, what you think a coach should make. But I do think, like, transparency on this topic is how the needle will continue to move. Like, in addition to owners investing. Like, I think if I was a coach, like, I would want to make sure that, like, there is some kind of public accountability and like a public pressure. Because, you know, say Team X, it gets out there that Team X only pays their coach $400,000 a year. Well then, like, maybe the next time that team is hiring, people know that, like, that team has to step up and pay their coach more money if they want the best kind of candidate or like the top candidate. Like, money, money does matter in some of these situations. It's why, like, and there's a number of ways we could take this part of the conversation. Like, it's why it's very rare for high major college coaches to come to the WNBA. Because, like, why would you, you know, give up $5 million, $6 million, you know, even low seven figures at like a high major school to sign two or three year deals worth $500,000? And that is like, you know, those kind of salaries, I think are pretty new still in the WNBA, like, we had some executives tell us that, like, five years ago the range was 150 to $600,000.
- [27:38]
Zena Kaeda
Like that.
- [27:39]
Ben Pickman
It's basically doubled over the last five years. And wow, you know, yes, the business has grown, but the explanation we were given as to why it's doubled was just like, people care more, owners care more, and they recognize that to get top talent, they have to pay more. And so, like, you know, just applying that logic, I think if you're a coach, the hope is that five years from now the range is double what it is, right? Or like, the marketplace has continued to shift. And why will it shift? It's just because, like, like, it's, you have to pay that if you want the top people. And that is the case in so many other leagues that, like, you talk about advocacy, like, the kind of transparency I think will lead to shifts in the marketplace because again, like, Going back to the start of this conversation, it's not a topic that is like often discussed publicly in WNBA circles in the same way that like WNBA player salaries definitely are.
- [28:32]
Zena Kaeda
That whole concept of you can't just be a good person for five to 10 years applies to these owners and how they pay these coaches. You can't just shell out mid level college coach salaries and expect pro level coaching to be provided. You're going to continue to have average turnout in terms of your result. I just want to know if all the coaches got together. You actually wrote about this, Ben. You said there's a meeting that's happening in a few weeks. I wish I could be a fly on the wall in the next few weeks, WNBA general managers and head coaches are going to gather at their fall competition meetings and if they all, let's hypothetically say they all got together and said, guys, we're going to publish all of our salaries. Okay? We're going to put this out there. The media could take it, run with it Athletic. You're going to do a front page story of these are all the salaries. How many coaches would be upset at what their fellow coaches are getting?
- [29:31]
Sabrina Merchant
I think the ones that are getting like big numbers are pretty public already. Like it's, it's been put out there that, you know, Becky Hammond was the first seven figure salary in the WNBA and then Nate Tibbets became the highest paid coach when he joined a couple years later. So I think, I think the big ones, we all know, I think they'd be more upset publishing what they make versus what the other ones make.
- [29:50]
Zena Kaeda
Right.
- [29:50]
Sabrina Merchant
It's really how you'd want to frame that.
- [29:52]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, but I think it's the kind of thing that is like again, it's like putting out salaries in other sports when they're reported or like, you know, even on a, like comparing salaries with peers in the workplace. Yeah.
- [30:03]
Zena Kaeda
I was thinking corporate America.
- [30:05]
Ben Pickman
This is like a very normal thing, right. Like nobody wants to be the first person to like publish their salary unless you have a record breaking salary. Right. Unless you want people to know that like you know, you're getting paid seven figures or you know, you're getting paid $1.2 million. Like nobody wants to put that out there unless you have something you really want to put out there. But if, like, if it is a culture of putting things out there, then I think like you see change because you see accountability and you see transparency. Right. Like, so I think that is like the hard part here that you know, teams and agents, you know, that goes back to the plea I would make, hopefully what you just said, Zena, about putting all those salaries out, you speak it into existence. I'm not banking on that happening. But, you know, I think that would be good for the marketplace overall over the next couple years if something like that did happen.
- [30:56]
Sabrina Merchant
I think salary transparency is always good for the marketplace. I agree.
- [30:59]
Zena Kaeda
I agree at all marketplaces in capitalism, Africa. Absolutely agreed. We're getting off topic here. Let me get back to. Let me get back to the women's basketball here. If I'm a college coach or an overseas coach, I'm not within this space of the WNBA already. What's my appeal to join the wnba? Like, if you're a GM and you guys talk to gm, what's the plan they're laying out here for people to come and coach in the W?
- [31:27]
Sabrina Merchant
I think for college coaches, the appeal is really just the quality of life. You know, the job of a college coach has changed so much over the past three years with Nil and Transfer Portal and constantly re recruiting players and all of these additional responsibilities that layer themselves on top of just coaching basketball. Whereas in the wnba, season's a little bit shorter. You know, you don't have to like, worry about visiting high schools around the country and, you know, dealing with your boosters and your collectives and all of that. I think the job itself is just more streamlined in the WNBA and it's an easier job. It's. I mean, Cheryl Reeve talks about this all the time. She has no desire to go back to college just because it's a better quality of life in the W in terms of what you get to do. Right? You just got to work with adults and be a head coach and just deal with basketball. And especially now that the jobs of the GM and the head coach are mostly separated across the wnba. It's very straightforward what the role is. And I think that is the appeal for, you know, when you're attracting a college coach. Like, hey, remember when you just got to coach basketball? Like, you can do that again, just coach basketball. And it's not even like you're really concerned about, you know, admittedly, like there, there is less interest in the WNBA than college basketball holistically. But the rate of increase in the WNBA's interest suggests that, like, you'd still be coaching to a passionate fan base and you'd still have a good group of community and people rooting for your team. So I don't even think, like, that's as big of a drop off as it used to be in terms of college and pro. So I think that's, that's the pitch if you're coming out of college, coach like, yeah, maybe we are paying you a little bit less. But also like, think about how great your quality of life is going to be relative to dealing with 18 year olds, parents right now about not getting playing time.
- [33:02]
Zena Kaeda
All right, well then what's the pitch for international coaches other than just the parade Sandy Brandello around?
- [33:08]
Ben Pickman
I think Sandy Rondello is an interesting case because she's a former player in the WNBA who like, you know, has a ton of playing experience. Look, I think the international case is a little bit different because international coaches oftentimes the style of basketball is a little bit different. There might be a language barrier. There also might be like a cultural barrier about like how coaches communicate in like foreign clubs. Like a lot of head coaches, frankly communicate differently or like a lot of foreign teams very much are kind of run by coaches. Like, it almost is a lot more like college where like, it's about the coach and like what the coach says and the player kind of fits into the coach. Whereas I think in the W is like very much a players league, right? Like, I think the best coaches, like, or the best teams, often they have great players and the coach kind of works to build a system around the players that they have. Or it is much more a players league. Like the players drive conversation, the players drive change. So I think the international situation is a little bit different. What I thought you were going to ask me, Zena, is like, what's the pitch for a college coach to stay? Because I think, like, still that's interesting. Like, so often, other than just straight dollars and cents, how long a contract is and how much money a high major coach can make, I think the one thing that is still stark is like the kind of resources behind a high major college coach, right? Like, and that ranges from travel amenities, that ranges from just like. And maybe Sabrina can speak to this a little bit because she's been at some college practices already this fall. Like, walk into a college gym and just see how many people, like, are there, how many like trainers, assistants, like on the medical staff, how many content people, how many assistant coaches. It's like kind of stark compared to so many WNBA traveling parties. And I think you think about high major college programs and how much that is different. Or like Sabrina and I were at, what was it, the Minnesota Timberwolves and Denver Nuggets preseason game in October. And I think like, we were talking about it when we were just at that game watching it, like, oh my God, look at how many people are sitting behind the bench.
- [35:20]
Zena Kaeda
Don't get me started.
- [35:21]
Ben Pickman
Very simple.
- [35:22]
Zena Kaeda
It's literally a whole team beside the team. It's crazy how many coaches are in the NBA, right?
- [35:28]
Ben Pickman
And so like if you're the head coach of an NBA team, look at all the bodies. You have to like support your role. Whereas if you're in the wnba, like you get like three assistants. You get like, you know, some teams have bigger training staff. Someone like New York for instance, has a full time performance team of like five or six people. But some teams, like they travel with like two or three medical people. You know, they have like the strength coaches doing everything. You know, like the traveling party in a WNBA is often like 25, 25 ish, 30 people.
- [36:00]
Zena Kaeda
Wow.
- [36:00]
Ben Pickman
Colleges can be so much bigger than that. Or like so. So that is like a stark difference when you're comparing the two jobs as to maybe why you wouldn't make the leap if you're either an NBA coach or a college coach when thinking about coming to the W. Yeah.
- [36:14]
Sabrina Merchant
And that's why I think like what Cena mentioned earlier, just about the overall investment coming into the teams, like you're seeing that, like Ben said, in the size of the New York Liberty travel traveling party. I mean I spent a lot of time at Vegas Aces practices a couple years ago and like their. There's a lot of people there. You know, like you walk in and there's, there's people filming things. There's a lot of coaches who I'm sure aren't allowed to be given the title assistant coaches because there is a limit on that in the wnba, but they seem to do very assistant coaching type roles. Sparks have that situation too. But yeah, like, it does seem as though we're not hitting NBA levels in terms of how are people supposed to even see around all of these staffers, like behind the bench? But there is definitely like you look at a WNBA bench and you can see like, oh, there's, there's investment. Like people have full time jobs here. It's not just the one person who gets to fold all the clothes and do all the laundry and do their packing and like we're not that far removed from that in wnba, let's be clear. But I do think within the last three or so years we've seen a massive jump just in terms of the number of physical like manpower people are involved in WNBA teams. And I think although the gap is obviously not going to close because The WNBA is just not going to put in type of resources as, like, LSU women's basketball. But I do think that, like, it's not. I don't think it's as big of a concern as it could have been like, three years ago.
- [37:25]
Zena Kaeda
You know, you got to remember, guys, WNBA is less than 30 years old. I don't know if you guys are listening that are 30 and under. You probably are trying to get your life together still. Okay, so I understand the growth pattern for the WNBA feels very similar to my own life and still trying to figure out some things, put some things in place. But we're still growing in certain areas, and I absolutely think that that's one of the things the W is experiencing. So, you know, it's funny, Ben, when you talked about the question of, like, what can you say to a college coach to stay? It was interesting in the article, a former head coach said, no one is going to leave their major job at the college level making millions to come here to our league. Which is exactly what you guys just touched on from a money perspective. All right, well, let's talk about the people already here, because I talked about college and international, but the recycling. Are there benefits to having coaches that know this league, that know the limitations of this league, that know the potential growth elements of this league, that know the players, et cetera, being able to just pop them into a new system that fits? Is this a safe and good choice for GMs?
- [38:38]
Sabrina Merchant
I think the league is so different now than it was even five years ago that there is a risk of recycling and expecting a coach to understand what the league has been and just bringing that knowledge back. Like, it's a common practice in leagues. Like, someone gets fired and immediately another team is, like, knocking down their door, like, hey, we have a better fit. We're gonna treat you better. We're not gonna, like, fire you two years after winning a championship. But I just wonder if the landscape of the WNNN. I feel like I've just said this so many times, it just doesn't look like it did in 2019. You know, like, the style of play is so different. You know, the spacing is different. The. The way teams travel is different, the way that they're allowed to, like, conduct their business at home. Like, the amount of people that they're allowed to staff and all of these sorts of things are just dramatically changed from what they were even three, four years ago. So to think that, like, there is this deep pool of institutional knowledge to jump back into. I'm Just not sure really holds. Like, people who are assistants now and, like, who have just been fired. Like, I think Kristi Sides could easily get back into this coaching search. And I think, you know, Latricia Trammel and Nisha Wright are probably, like, not done yet. But the history of the WNBA is basically just like, oh, one, one team loses a coach immediately, they're onto some. And I'm just not sure that, like, if we're looking more than five years back, that that's something that the WNBA still wants to do. I think you really have to focus on some recency bias here because it is just a very different league than it was.
- [39:53]
Ben Pickman
The thing I would say too, and I think we probably should have said this at the start of this conversation is like, there are a lot of good basketball minds out there. Like, when we talk about the kind of the question of where is the coaching pool? Like, by no means is this story or anything that we've said, like, trying to indict the kind of basketball acumen of like, people who are assistants or people who are not, you know, who have been in the league, who might not have been head coaches yet or have not gotten opportunities or like college coaches. Like, it's just that, like, you know, as I hope we've mapped out in this conversation what it takes to be a really good head coach, there's more to it too than just like, how good of a basketball mind are you? Right. How good of, like a culture builder are you? And there are all these other factors that come into play when you're thinking about a career choice. The same way there are factors that, like, you know, any kind of normal person in corporate America is weighing when they're making a career choice that it's not just like, am I good at the job? But it's, you know, it's lifestyle, it's fit, it's money, it's how long is the contract. It's like all these different things. Who are the people I'm working with? What is the investment of the company? I'm going to like, all these other factors come into play to help, you know, someone be as successful as they can be that go beyond just like, can I drop a good out of bounds play? Right, right. And so I think that is kind of one of the things we've tried to think about is, like, there are people who I'm sure could come in right now and drop some great ATOs. Like, if you needed, if you needed like an ATO late game. Like, there are people who have not been head coaches who might have only been assistants one year, who might have a ton of creative ideas and could come in and do that. But maybe those people are hard to find and maybe long term those people wouldn't be put in the best positions to succeed. And so that, I think is something else to understand and to think about when weighing this big question of where are all these hirings and where are all these coaches, the next wave of them going to come from?
- [41:53]
Zena Kaeda
I couldn't have asked for a better way for both of you to close out this conversation. All of these factors will play a major role as teams continue to look for their next head coach. And they've said that this search is going to be far and wide. And because it's going to be so far and so wide, it might not come so immediately, right? It might have a little bit of time before you see that. Just a reminder, Atlanta Dream, Connecticut Sun, Dallas Wings, Los Angeles Sparks and the Washington Mystics still looking for a head coach. Sabrina Ben, fabulous reporting on this, folks. Please go check out this article, these articles that they've been dropping around the coaching carousel. It will not make your head spin, only will make your ideas start going about who these teams could be potentially reaching out to and what they could be doing to make that reach out a little bit more valid. All right, gotta close out this conversation, but appreciate you all again tuning in and lending us your ear. Hit that subscribe button on this pod because you don't want to miss out on everything we're covering. Chantelle and I will be back on Tuesday to talk about what's going on in the NCAA landscape because a lot of big games are coming. I think UConn plays today of the time that we're recording, so we'll know a little bit about Paige Becker's first outing and some other teams around the association. But for now, got any other comments, questions? Leave them under the stories. Leave them under our posts on Twitter and X and threads and all the above. We want to hear from you on behalf of Ben Pickman and Sabrina Merchant. I'm Xena Keda thanking you for your ear again and encouraging you. Keep listening, keep watching, keep learning and keep loving the game because that's the only way we're going to keep growing it and get these coaches paid. Until next time.
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- [45:09]
Sabrina Merchant
ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recognize.
- [45:17]
Zena Kaeda
Hey guys. Welcome to Giggly Squad, a place where.
- [45:19]
Sabrina Merchant
We make fun of everything, but most importantly ourselves.
- [45:22]
Ben Pickman
I'm Paige desorbo.
- [45:23]
Sabrina Merchant
I'm Hannah Berner.
- [45:24]
Zena Kaeda
Welcome to the squad.
- [45:26]
Sabrina Merchant
Giggly Squad started on Summer House when we were giggling during an inappropriate time.
- [45:30]
Ben Pickman
But of course we can't be managed.
- [45:32]
Sabrina Merchant
So we decided to start this podcast to continue giggling.
- [45:35]
Ben Pickman
We will make fun of pop culture news.
- [45:37]
Sabrina Merchant
We're watching fashion trends pep talks where we give advice, mental health moments and games and guests. Listen to Giggly Squad on Acast or wherever you get your podcasts. ACAST helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com.