← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
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- [00:00]
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- [04:57]
Zena Keda
For the Athletic. I'm Zena Keda and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball show brought to you by AT&T. Welcome to a special edition of WNBA Finals Women's Basketball Pod from the Athletic. We are actually doing this at Ben Pickman's dining room table. Ben, thank you for hosting us.
- [05:30]
Ben Pickman
I'm just happy to be here and happy you guys could come back and we could debrief the game in person. An exciting weekend of basketball before we go on to Minneapolis.
- [05:38]
Zena Keda
Absolutely. It's already been two games of the WNBA Finals and it's already been a split split series. Sabrina and I are coming all the Way from the west coast to be a part of this here in the Mecca of basketball. It's been pretty dope that we're all here together to see this, but, man, that first game was nothing that any of us could really have predicted. Unbelievable matchup, unbelievable game, Crazy outcome. Went to overtime. The Lynx taking a game on New York's home turf. First game out the blocks, 95, 93 in overtime. Sabrina, obviously this is something that everyone's kind of debriefed. We've already gotten to game two, but I'm still not really over game one. How surreal was that game in the grand context of WNBA Finals lore?
- [06:26]
Sabrina Ionescu
I believe I sat at this very dining table five days ago and said that the Lynx had less than a 10% chance of winning game one because of the fact that they went five against the Connecticut sun, the fact that they had a 48 hour turnaround into this series against the Liberty, that the Liberty had a home court, that the Liberty had this bad taste in their mouth of how the finals went in 2023 when they lost game four on their home court. And lo and behold, for about 35 minutes, I think things went as we all thought they were gonna go. 81 to 66 with about five minutes left in regulation. And then New York decided to do what they do and forget how to play offense and stagnate a little bit. And Minnesota was all too happy to pick up the pieces and they went small for a little bit. It was a unconventional look for Shell Reeve and the Links, but Tisha Heideman, Courtney Williams just driving into the paint getting things done. I mean, we could talk for hours and hours about the last minute of that game. In between, Courtney Williams is four point play, the jump ball that maybe shouldn't have been called because the ball was clearly off of Brianna Stewart's foot. And then, you know, Stewie getting fouled on the floor and inbounds that, you know, looks like the game is over. And then, no, we're calling a foul on Nafeesa Collier. And oh my God, the New York Liberty are going to win the game. And then they don't win the game. And oh my God, it was, it was all too many things happening at once. But Minnesota takes it and that's what leads us into Sunday in this little rematch.
- [07:50]
Zena Keda
And that's a beautiful recap of exactly what happened that first game. And Ben, I have to ask this question because you've been around the Liberty, you followed them through their journey to the Aces, you know, WNBA Finals last year, and their loss there. There was talk of being cursed. There's talk of the Liberty just going through, I guess, a stagnation of what they're. They're capable of, but not being able to actually close it out. When you look at what they did in this past game and how they bounced back in Game two, what do you think the biggest thing they changed to be able to win Game two against the Lynx?
- [08:25]
Ben Pickman
Well, I will first say Xeno, we don't know if a curse has technically been lifted at this point. We're talking it's still 1:1. There's still a lot of series left to play. They could very well go on to lose this series. And they'll look back and they'll look at game one and they'll say, look like we let one slip away. And they know they let one slip away. Pretty much everyone on the roster knows that they should have won Game one and that a golden opportunity slipped through the cracks because they did not close the game the way that they wanted to. Frankly, like as we start to digest Game two and we should say none of us have re watched Game two, this is all just instant reactions. We're taping this just like a few hours after tip, a few hours after leaving Barclays center and writing our stories. To me, like, some of the big changes were obviously Benajulaney Hamilton, who scored 20 points, tied her season high this year with New York Liberty. She was really the X factor. She was aggressive early on. She made her first jumper. Then she made her first three pointer. It was at that point that Courtney Vandersloot from the bench kind of started to recognize that Lainey Hamilton was in for a big night, and we certainly saw that. She also played really good defense on Kayla McBride and Courtney Williams at different points throughout the game. So she's number one in terms of just players who stepped up. We saw Sabrina Unescu early on, I think, also set the tone for New York scoring double digits in that first quarter. That was key in New York getting off to a hot start. UNESCO actually was pretty slow throughout the rest of the game. Minnesota, I think, did a pretty good job of slowing her down, limiting her impact overall, but she kind of did the job when she needed to and set the stage for New York. All in all, the ball movement was a little bit better, but New York didn't do a ton of things differently, I would say. I think they just kind of played their game. And let's be clear, they still fell into some traps. They still had offensive lows. The ball still sticked at times. They didn't rebound it nearly as well. So it's not like they solved a lot of things. I just think like some other players stepped up and their defense was good enough to limit Minnesota on the offensive end.
- [10:13]
Zena Keda
I think that's a really great point because even, you know, in the press, in the post game presser, Cheryl Reeves was asked about Breanna Stewart and thinking about how she performed versus Game one versus Game two. And she said, I think she played pretty well in Game one. I don't really think there was that big of a difference. I think someone that was significantly different in the way they approached the game was Sabrina Ionescu. In Game one, it looked like she was forcing a lot of things versus in Game two, she said in the post game press conference that she was doing what the defense allowed her. Sabrina, thinking about Sabrina's game and the shift that you saw, like, what did you observe of the difference between the two games?
- [10:49]
Sabrina Ionescu
Yeah, I think you're spot on about just how she was approaching her offensive performance. There was a lot of pressing, a lot of taking shots that maybe weren't there in game one. She ended up taking 26 shots in the game, which is an enormous total, admittedly, including overtime. But she only ended up with nine shot attempts in this game too. And they were just more equitably distributed amongst her teammates.
- [11:08]
Zena Keda
Right.
- [11:08]
Sabrina Ionescu
Like you see 14 shots from Benija Lady Hamilton, 13 from JJ, 18 from Brianna Stewart, and when the Liberty shoot under 40% in game one, and that includes that 8 of 26 from Sabrina Unescu, then you look at their 47 and a half shooting percentage in game two, and it's just a better blend of instead of Sabrina forcing the shots, they're just going to the open player. And like Ben was saying, you know, still offensive levels, still some stagnation, admittedly not a ton different between this game and game one. Just Minnesota made a few more shots in Game one and that's what got them over the hump eventually got them the lead down the stretch. Didn't happen for them in game two when they pulled the margin to within two points, but never ended up actually taking the lead.
- [11:49]
Ben Pickman
We should say too. Like, it was really interesting over the last couple days to see and hear different perspectives from New York side in particular about how they were approaching this game. Right. I think Minnesota on the whole was very loose. Like Sabrina and I talked to them on Saturday practice day. Some of them had gone to see some Broadway shows on Friday night. That was like very fun. A Lot of them saw the Notebook. Cheryl Reeves saw the Lion King. Right.
- [12:10]
Zena Keda
Like, Sabrina watched the Oregon Ducks game.
- [12:12]
Ben Pickman
Right. Sabrina has watched the night before, but that was, I think, more like a good example of how she spent some of her time. But I think New York, there was a little bit more variety as to how players were processing Game one. And one of the things that was really interesting is they were all pretty open that this wasn't a series that, like, they could just flip the page from one to two. Like, the effects of Game one still lingered on through the weekend. Like yesterday, they very much were still talking about it. People were still processing it. Multiple players said they had watched it, you know, multiple times over, like they had not forgotten what had happened. And it was not kind of an easy thing to switch. Sabrina Unescu, the whole time, though, I think, was one of the more optimistic or forward looking players as she kind of processed the loss. She credited her husband in a lot of ways for kind of helping her, you know, feel better, I guess, you know, shout out her own is. Yeah, I mean that. And then, you know, she obviously was very happy with the Oregon Ducks victory over the Ohio State University on Saturday night. And she wore Oregon sneakers in honor of their grittiness. She said that was a fun detail in the postgame, but she seemed to take it about as well as. As they could. And she certainly didn't lack confidence on Saturday leading into this game. And that was one of the things that kind of struck me as we were talking to players even in the lead up to Game two.
- [13:29]
Sabrina Ionescu
Yeah. One of the things that all of the Liberty players pretty much emphasized was that it was easier to be able to look Forward to Game 2 because they knew so much was within their control. It's not as if they played as well as they could have and they still fell short of Minnesota. There were all of these things that were well within their ability to fix, like the pace, like the off ball actions, like the way their offense was moving. You know, they knew they could tighten things up on defense, which we definitely saw to great effect in Game two. So it was easier for them to be able to move on with the knowledge that, oh, we are capable of winning games in the series, even though, you know, let's be honest, Minnesota has won four of the six games between these two teams thus far this season.
- [14:05]
Zena Keda
Right. And the Liberty are going to Minnesota, where they have not won all season. And that's going to be a very big factor there. Number one thing that just jumps out at the page, at me When I look at the two box scores from the last game and this game and you referenced it, Sabrina, the shot differential for the New York Liberty. Just listen to these numbers folks. 90 shots taken by the New York Liberty versus the 71 in the links in the first game, 90 shots this game, 61 shots and the Lynx took 60. So the balance was there. And you absolutely saw them say let's take what the defense gave us. But one of the things also on that fact, Leonie Fibich, first game, 14 shots and goes 6 of 14 in that game, does really well tonight, only hits one shot. And if you saw the game folks, you know that the one shot she hit was probably the gutsiest shot you could possibly ever take. It's the shot that when you are playing in AAU you do not want to take or you are going to sit your butt on the bench for the rest of the game. Okay, this is a shot when you don't even have defenders back in the paint ready to rebound for you. This is a shot where your offense doesn't have an opportunity to breathe. Like coaches die at this. But apparently Sandy Brandello looked at it and was like, all right, she's going to shoot this because she as she said Leonie Fibich's threes are like layups. So she went one of three tonight. And of course we know, we'll talk about Nigelina Hamilton in a second. We know that that was where that deficit was made up. But Nigelany Hamilton scoring incredibly well while Leonie F dropped to only three points tonight. Is that of concern to you, Ben? Their star rookie, and I put rookie in quotes because she is not a regular rookie. She's been in these kind of big tense moments in these big shot type of environments. Is that a concern you think for the New York Liberty that Leonie Feebich didn't step up in the same way that she did the first game?
- [16:04]
Ben Pickman
I don't think so at all. If anything, I think it is a sign of confidence and it is a good sign for them going forward that they can still win a game without her being the kind of plus minus star and sharpshooter that she's been. I mean, I think the key and Cheryl Reeve talked about this and I wrote about this a little bit on the site is that New York's roster is deep enough that they can have different players step up and kind of star on any given night. Right. Tonight was Benija Laney Hamilton, though we should say Brianna Stewart did finish with 21 points, right? Jonquil Jones had 24 in game one. Fech had 17 in game one. Like Courtney Vandersloot had a pretty minimal role in game two, but she's been pretty active. You know, it's game one of this series and throughout the Aces series, she played a key role in them advancing. I think it's a strength of New York that on any given night, two, three, four players and you're not exactly sure who those players are can step up. Cheryl Reef kind of talked about it. She acknowledged that like the X factors are a difference. Right. She said you need your players beyond your starters and through two games that like New York has gotten production from just beyond their, their biggest name, their biggest name players. Minnesota on the other hand, has not gotten consistent contributions from their role players. That's one of the things that is most jarring. I know we talk about, you know, role players playing so well at home, but like as this series flips it and we'll get into it later in the show, I'm sure like Bridget Carlton, she's six of 29, I believe from three over her last, I want to say five or six games, like that's not great. It's not great to be 6 to 29. Like she's going to need to shoot it better. She's the kind of player who will need to step up. We've seen it from Nafisa Collier. You know what you're getting though. She had a modest game too, by her standards. So, you know, we'll see who else steps up for Minnesota when it flips back. But if I'm New York, to answer your question, going back to Atena. No, the fact that they can win with Fibich having a quiet night, I think that's a positive. They'll take that any day of the week.
- [17:48]
Sabrina Ionescu
And I think it's also important to note that Fibich was the main defender on Courtney Williams. And Courtney Williams had a pretty tough time in this game. Not only was it Fibich, but it was, you know, Brianna Stewart coming up high on screens to help Fibich and that's what, five foot seven Courtney Williams with two, six, four defenders, just long arms, everything in front of her. And you think about the game that Courtney Williams had, you know, in game one, 10 points in the fourth quarter, five points in overtime, the game swinging four point play. She just wasn't able to have the same impact in this game. And a lot of that is because even though Fibic didn't have the offensive performance, she still was doing her Job defensively.
- [18:23]
Zena Keda
Now, I was just looking at the turnover totals in the first game. The Lynx had only 12 turnovers in this one, 20. Now, who was responsible for a lot of that? Brianna Stewart. The crazy thing is Brianna Stewart ends up being the number one scorer on the New York Liberty and the number one scorer between both teams with 21 points going 7:18 from the floor. Brianna Stewart was probably the player that if you're watching this game and you've been watching the W all year long, or you're just someone that's just hearing about how that game one ended, you're worried about her mental. You're worried about how is she waking up the next day to go, I got to go play game two. And I had two chances. One chance to win the game, one chance to open up another overtime, and I missed both opportunities. And yet she came back and just showed the hell up. What goes into that for Brianna Stewart to be able to just bounce back in the game, too?
- [19:19]
Ben Pickman
She also talked about the importance of her family and just like being a mom to two and how, you know, she had to. She had other responsibilities this weekend. She had to manage childcare in particular, that she couldn't just focus on what had happened. But I thought one of the most, like, illuminating comments that Stewie made over the weekend was when we were talking to her about the missed free throw in particular. You know, she goes to the line with 0.8 seconds to go. She makes the first after a really long delay. She steps up for the second. We know what happens next. Cena, as you said, she misses that second. And she kind of said. And I had asked her this question, like, when did you watch it back? And she said, yes. And then I said, you know, what stuck out when you watch it back? What did you remember? What were you thinking about? And she said, watching it back, like, she was pretty comfortable with every choice and everything that happened. She was like, I didn't step off the line. I didn't fade. I didn't. You know, I followed through. I went through my normal routine like, the ball didn't go in the basket. Obviously, she was really pissed about that in the moment, and I'm sure the pain of that still lingers. But from a kind of process standpoint, she seemed to be pretty at peace and comfortable with what had happened, sure that she had done everything she wanted to do, and the result just didn't go her way. And so I think when that is the case with someone like Stewie, it allows you to respond a lot easier or more quickly, because you don't need to change anything up. You just need to continue to do what you do and know that your work and your habits are going to pay off. And she believes that. And certainly we saw that, you know, in game two against Minnesota.
- [20:46]
Sabrina Ionescu
And Cheryl Reeves said something to a similar effect where Stewie was great in game one, they expected her to be great again in game two. And she was. It wasn't as if she did anything in particular wrong in game one. Just the shots didn't go in, as you mentioned, at the end of regulation and at the end of overtime. So when you have a resume as long as Brianna Stewart, with all of the college titles and the WNBA titles and the Eurol League titles and the gold medals, you have confidence in your ability to perform in these situations. And maybe it didn't happen in Game 1, but Brianna Stewart comes into every game believing that she can positively impact winning basketball for her team.
- [21:17]
Ben Pickman
She also closed this game out. Like I thought that was one of the things. Like this game. It felt eerily similar at times. If you're a New York Liberty fan, two game one and that New York built a 17 point lead. They seem to be up by double digits for most, if not all of the game. And then suddenly in the fourth quarter you're like, wow, six point game, four point game, two point game, like, is this going to happen again? And I think people in the arena very much felt that tension too. Brianna Stewart, she finishes with seven steals, a WNBA Finals record. Three of them are in the final five minutes. Like, wow, it was on the defensive end first and foremost. And maybe Sabrina, you want to talk about what you wrote, but like it was on the defensive end that she sealed this game. The 21 points is great, the 8 is, the 8 rebounds, the 5 assists are great. But it was on that end of the floor that I think she really made the clear statement tonight.
- [22:06]
Sabrina Ionescu
I mean, you talk about those three steals in the final five minutes, the game is 66 to 64, right? This is the closest Minnesota has gotten since the opening possession of the game. 66, 64. Brianna Stewart forces a steal on Courtney Williams. New York doesn't end up scoring. It's 66, 64 again. Brianna Stewart steals the ball from a piece of Collier, then New York scores. It's never within one possession again. So when you talk about closing the game, she quite literally had the playmaking defensively to get New York the ball, to make sure Minnesota doesn't even get a shot to tie the game, let alone like Deflecting a shot, you know, they don't even get the attempt up. And that's the kind of defensive presence we're talking about with Brianna Stewart.
- [22:42]
Zena Keda
She was a wall on the wing. I mean, every single time Courtney Williams looked up, it was just like seven foot arms right up.
- [22:50]
Sabrina Ionescu
And that's not even an exaggeration because her wingspan is quite literally seven foot one.
- [22:54]
Zena Keda
It's crazy how much she just was Active hands. Active hands. And Ben, I'm happy you kind of read out her her stat line because it was a wild one. You know, out of the eight rebounds, three offensive boards, five assists, you know, tying that up with Sabrina Unescu. But you mentioned that steal Sabrina on Nafisa Collier. You look at Nafisa Collier overall as a player, she is the person that the Lynx offense doesn't necessarily run through, but you need to get her a touch throughout their off their half court offense. Last game, Nafisa Collier had one turnover, 21 points, one turnover, two assists. This game she had as many turnovers as Brianna Stewart had steals, seven turnovers, only 16 points. Now mind you, we know 16 points in W ain't easy to get, but for a person that can that was averaging 40 points in the first two games of the playoffs, you're like, what is going on? I want to talk a little bit about how New York handled the Nafisa Collier assignment in the second game because it really was night and day in terms of comfort, not only on offense, but she got some frustrating fouls there too, and they got her on offensive fouls down in the paint, etc. I won't touch too much on the details. I'd love to know how you saw them shift on her assignment.
- [24:18]
Sabrina Ionescu
I think part of it was New York committing just across the board to pressuring the ball more. So whether that meant higher pickup points on Courtney Williams or everybody else in the half court, making sure that it was a little bit beyond the three point line that they had to start running their offense for Minnesota. So that makes things difficult not only for the point guard running the offense, but also whoever has to, you know, be the outlet out of that trap. And oftentimes that is Nafisa Collier. And you saw it that a lot of her turnovers felt unforced, like she was just dribbling the ball out of her hands. And it can be tempted to just say that's an unforced error, but it's a product of her being rushed. Like everything Minnesota did was just a little bit uncomfortable, a little bit disrupted. A little bit rushed. And you could see that just with her handle, because a player like Nafisa Collier, who maybe her handle is like one of the weaker points of her game, not a bad part of her game by any means, just doesn't dribble the ball off of herself that often.
- [25:07]
Zena Keda
Right? Right. She's very methodical in the way that she moves across the court.
- [25:11]
Ben Pickman
Can we also talk about the stretch in the third quarter when she picks up three fouls in what, 101 seconds? Had anyone ever seen that before? I mean, the coaches and Nafeesa Collier, they're always. Players are always cautious about criticizing the officiating. This was an oddly officiating game, to say the least. Kurt Miller, I think he had a great tweet that the former LA Sparks coach pre game where he kind of said that what the. The referees in this. This crew likes to just get their cardio in and doesn't really blow the whistle. Said this crew is known for cardio. Not going to be many whistles.
- [25:47]
Zena Keda
Right.
- [25:48]
Ben Pickman
It proved to be correct in the first half. There were three fouls, I believe, in the first 12 minutes of the game. Pretty crazy, because then Nafisa Collier picks up three fouls and 101 seconds in the third quarter and in the third quarter was just like whistle central. Like, there were so many stoppages. You just looked up and we're like, oh, my God, when did all these fouls get called? It was all in the third quarter, basically. Second, third quarter and through the fourth. So, you know, Fee kind of talked about it a little bit post game of just. It is really hard as a player. She would not make an excuse. She talked about how Minnesota played poorly, like she was frustrated with that and she wouldn't use the officiating as an excuse. But she did acknowledge that you spend some time during a game trying to adjust to how it is being called. And then it did appear that it was called in a very different manner in the third and fourth quarter. So make of that what you will if you are a Minnesota fan or a New York fan. But kind of an unusual footnote in this game, too.
- [26:44]
Zena Keda
Good point. Only eight free throws shot in that first half ended up with 21. So a few more times to the line between the two of the teams. But the one call that made me go, whoa. It was the one that got Nafisa probably the most animated I've ever seen her on the court where she's defending, I believe Brianna Stewart and runs into Sabrina Ionescu and Sabrina Unescu Falls on the ground and she gets called for the foul. And she is begging to find out how is that my foul. But it's true. At the end, in the post game press conference, Nafisa's whole message was about, we didn't like how we showed up. The way that we, you know, played this game, the way we showed up to this game. It wasn't just this game, though. And I think she was referencing both games. The Liberty keep getting these big leads. They keep getting hot, I don't know, hot out the exit. What's the term? I don't. I'm not sure what, like, right out the gates. There's a term for horses that just come right out the gates. What's the term?
- [27:42]
Sabrina Ionescu
I think they just come hot right out the gates.
- [27:44]
Zena Keda
Okay. I don't know why. I think, like, when I hear hot out the gates, I hear pizza, but for some reason. But it's like they just come straight go. And they're gunning. They're, They're. They just look like all Stars. They look like Monstars in the first half of games. And then in that second half, it looks a little bit like, what's happening? Your turnovers, like, I like the way you've said it, Ben. The ball's sticking, etc. What is it going to take for the New York Liberty to get a lead and sustain it? I need a punch game, step on the jugular game. Like, what is it going to take?
- [28:16]
Ben Pickman
That is a very good question. And I frankly think over the last two years, Zena, that is a question that they know the answer to, but they struggle to put into practice. Right? It is pace. It is playing with pace, as we said, it is not having the ball stick. It is, you know, finding the second and third option on offense, it is continuing to scramble on defense, it's not forcing up shots. It's being aggressive and, you know, not rushing things. They know the solution to the test. It's just a matter of can they, like, unearth the answers when they really need it, right? Or, like, can they find it in their brain? Because, you know, we've seen this for two years, frankly, and sometimes New York wins these games like they did in game two, and sometimes they lose them. Right? And I've seen that multiple times over the last two years in the regular season where they have built these big leads and then let them slip away. So who's to say what's going to happen in game three and four? I mean, I think it goes to the idea that, like, New York, through two games, they've led all but four minutes, I want to say, and all but five seconds or like four seconds in regulation. I mean, Chell Reeve, she re emphasized it in the post game. She is pissed or she was pissed that for the second straight game New York built a 17 point lead. Like that's crazy, crazy finals game. And it's great that like her group has been resilient. And I think, you know, that is an admirable quality and one obviously that served them well in game one and has kept them in this series. But like, that's also a big problem that I think she recognizes and really wants to clean up. As this series flips back to Minnesota.
- [29:53]
Zena Keda
I think that's the thing that they're going to have to figure out when they get back to their home turf. How do we punch first? Let's flip this argument. We talk about the Liberty being able to build a lead and sustain it. What is it gonna take for the Links to come out hot and throw the first punch against the Liberty?
- [30:09]
Sabrina Ionescu
I think a lot of what the Lynx's problem has been is letting New York get going in transition. A lot of the early offense for the Liberty has been off of turnovers, misses in the restricted area that lead out to run outs. You know, you think about how the Liberty scored their first five points today. I think there was a steal that led to a layup and then it was another turnover that, you know, Brianna Stewart comes down the left side, kicks it to Sabrina on the opposite wing, sidestep three. Barclays is going nuts, yada, yada, yada. And I do think that Minnesota has just let New York get comfortable in transition and then that just makes them more comfortable in their half court offense because you see the ball go in a couple times and everybody's feeling hunky dory. So I think taking care of the ball is number one because I do think their offense has been the main culprit in letting their defense down. So if they can just, you know, figure that out, that's going to be the number one issue.
- [30:59]
Ben Pickman
I mean, it sounds simple, but like, can they make some three pointers? Right, Right. And I think one of the things that Zena I know, right, this was your first time at Barclays center, right. Seeing some of these time and time again. I'm sure you witnessed over the last two days, backbreaking crowd, enthusiastic three pointers by Feebic and Unescu that just like ignite the crowd. And Sabrina certainly plays into the fans when, you know, she skips back down the court and she shrugs or she kind of, you know, gestures for more noise at different points after different made baskets. Like, that's the kind of sequence in play that really does ignite the fan base, right? And that's the kind of thing that, as the series turns back to Minnesota, New York, those threes will silence a crowd. But Minnesota, you know, a McBride 3. Courtney Williams is the kind of player, when she gets hot, people erupt at Target Center, Bridget Carlton, if she has a big game, it's the same deal. So if they're able to make some of those plays, that's where the home court really makes a difference, because you'll get that spark of energy that you don't currently in New York when it's just the New York players that are both hitting threes and then embracing the crowd and kind of, you know, urging people on as they do so show.
- [32:01]
Zena Keda
I'm so happy you mentioned that because I've been to NBA Finals several times. I've been to play ins. I've been to playoff games. New York, shout out. Y'all showed. I can't curse the F up. Okay? The energy was insane. We've been here at the Athletic. We've been doing some content on the. On our site. Check out our socials. We've been out there on the concourses, but at and T, getting to know some of you guys, playing some games out on the concourses, and the energy has always been up. Always been up. We've had so much fun getting to know you guys. And then we get into the games and between the music, the vibe, shout out to whoever your hype woman is, your energy is through the roof. Now, Target Center, Lynx fans, whoever's showing up, we're coming to you, too. This better be matched. Okay? Because I'm telling you right now, the Liberty fans are. They called torches.
- [32:56]
Sabrina Ionescu
The Timeless Torches are a dancing group.
- [32:58]
Zena Keda
So there's the little torches, the baby kids that dance, and then there's timeless torches. But what are the Liberty fans called?
- [33:05]
Sabrina Ionescu
I don't know.
- [33:05]
Ben Pickman
I think just Liberty fans.
- [33:07]
Zena Keda
Okay, cool. Okay, we'll go with that. But you know what's so funny? Like, Ben, you mentioning the Sabrina shrug, et cetera. I cover the warriors, too, and it reminds me of a certain person. Stephen Curry and the Baby Assassin, as they like to call him, because he doesn't do too much, but it's just enough to make an arena erupt. And that is exactly what I felt. And I. I mean, there was times I felt myself shaking my head. When they made threes. Not because I wasn't happy the Liberties made threes, but because I felt bad for how deafening it was for the Lynx to be able to come down the other side and try to set something up and try to have confidence in whatever they're doing next. So now this series is flipping to Minnesota.
- [33:47]
Ben Pickman
Xena, can I just cut you off for a second?
- [33:48]
Zena Keda
Sure.
- [33:49]
Ben Pickman
Before we switch to Minnesota, I mean, this was your first Ellie experience before we turned the page. I know you've been to some warriors finals games.
- [33:55]
Zena Keda
Facts, facts.
- [33:56]
Ben Pickman
Just what was the Ellie experience? What do you think Ellie would have been like in those warriors years? If you plug Ellie into Oracle, like, can you imagine what that would have been for the crowd? Give me your review of the Barclays experience.
- [34:07]
Zena Keda
So what's great about the Barclays center experience is that it is New York centric, and I love me some New York hip hop. I am an east coast girly when it comes to New York hip hop, but ever since moving to California, I've appreciated the Bay Area. And I cannot imagine Ellie twerking to some hyphen music E40. I'm just seeing it. I can feel it. Where she would have a ball in Chase Center. Don't even get me started on what she would have looked like if she was an oracle and people were hyping her up in there. Oh, yeah. No, Ellie was phenomenal. I need to channel Ellie's energy every time I wake up in the morning because she knows she's a bad B and no one can tell her anything else. Okay, so Ellie, shout out to you for hyping the fans up, getting them going. I loved everything. Really. Shout out to the Liberties and Brooklyn Nets too, but your entertainment team. Applause, applause. I had a great time. Now we'll see if we'll be back in the building, but right now we're focusing on target center.
- [35:08]
Ben Pickman
Look, that's why I had to get the question. We just don't know if we're gonna be back in Barclays center, frankly. This series could end. Minnesota could win four games. New York could win in four games. Or we'll go back. And so, you know, I just wanted to get your. Your le thoughts and your experience thoughts before we fully flip to Minneapolis.
- [35:22]
Zena Keda
Absolutely. I was very grateful for my LA experience and I'm jealous that you. You all in New York get to experience that normally and regularly, hopefully in the Bay Valkyries, folks, if you're listening, get it together, figure it out, because Ellie is winning the mascot competition hands down. Okay? At Least in my opinion. Freddie may have some thoughts over at the Fever. Okay, now we're going over to Minnesota. Not excited to be packing tonight, going all the way out to Minnesota, but I am excited to go to Target Center. I've heard great things about that arena, too. I'm particularly excited to see what happens when the New York Liberty are now going into enemy territory, a place they have not won yet. This year. In the games that you've seen them play, is there something about the environment versus the team that impacts how well they perform?
- [36:13]
Ben Pickman
Well, New York actually has the best road record of any team in the WNBA this year. They are a very, very good road team in part because they are an experienced team and they are a very talented team and that is a good combination. And there are a lot of other cities will leave the teams nameless in which there are some wins to be picked up on the road. Sabrina is familiar with one of those teams in particular.
- [36:35]
Sabrina Ionescu
Hey, they lost one of them in LA this year.
- [36:37]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, that's true. That is a good point. They do tend to struggle out in Los Angeles. I guess we have just name dropped one of those teams. So if I'm New York, honestly, I don't think going into that environment is going to be that big of a deal. I think they, one of the things they learned last year was the kind of energy level and the environment and just what needs to be brought when playing a finals game on the road. And I guess we're going to see how much they really learn. But think about their experience in Vegas last year. They got punched in the mouth right at the start of that series. Las Vegas got off to a crazy hot start in game one. Completely changed the tenor of game one. Same thing happened in game two and suddenly you're down two zero going back home and that series was as good as over when you came back to New York. We saw them at least learn in part from that experience this year when they played in Las Vegas in the regular season and won. We saw it in the postseason, right? We did see the, you know, the Aces come out and win game three. But New York was what, that three point game at halftime, four point game at halftime of game three. Like, they did not play well in game three and they were still only down just a few points. Now, they did not play very well in the third quarter of game three and they did not have enough to muster up a run. But you can attribute that to a number of other factors. And certainly then in game four, they went into a hostile environment in Las Vegas and came out with a victory. So, you know, I don't really think the going on the road part is going to be that big of a deal for New York. I think someone like Feebage, someone like, you know, Laney Hamilton, like, those are the kinds of role players at this point. Courtney Vandersloot, who can play in different environments, maybe someone like Niara Sabali, has a different impact on the road than at home. I think where you're really going to potentially see the home court advantage. If you're a Minnesota fan, you hope that Courtney Williams has a big game. You hope that Bridget Carlton, that Caleb McBride ignites the crowd, that, you know, some of the bench players that we've seen in Spurs, Maisha Heinz Allen, like, contribute, but maybe not as consistently. Can they explode for a quarter or even parts of a quarter? That's where I think the home court really could make a difference here.
- [38:39]
Zena Keda
I absolutely want to see Courtney Williams go off at home. Mostly I would just want to see her dad go off in the crowd. And we saw that in New York. I'm sure there's going to be that same sort of like territorial, you know, domination from Courtney Williams through her dad definitely showing up. I didn't really look at the performance of the bench players for Minnesota. Maisha Hines Allen ending up with zero points. Natisha Heideman, five points, three turnovers. You know, not much added there. Zander Lasini, not much out of there.
- [39:14]
Ben Pickman
It's not a pretty box for game. Game two, Minnesota box four. Not a pretty one. Not a pretty one.
- [39:19]
Zena Keda
I didn't. I don't think I realized just how bad it was until just now when you mentioned that those people having to step up in, in Minnesota. And I think it's true, it's a really great point that if they're at home, they're going to feel well on their court, showing up, doing their reps, warming up, all of the little things. People are very pattern oriented and if you can do that at home, you can do it anywhere.
- [39:39]
Ben Pickman
I think what's so weird and, you know, interesting about this series right now is that New York has outplayed Minnesota almost the entire series and Minnesota has played catch up and yet it's 1:1. And yet, like, do you have a lot of confidence in New York going on the road and sustaining these runs? I think it's hard to feel like I'm not worried about the home court. I'm just worried, like, if you're New York, you get up to a double digit lead and you blow it and suddenly you blow game three and now you're down two one in a series that you should probably be winning and you're a quarter away or a game away rather from not winning the championship. And like Minnesota has beat them all year now, four and two in the six games combined, if you include finals and Commissioners cup. And they just continue to find ways to win and at this point in the season, like that is good enough. Like that's the reality here. And so if you said Minnesota will eventually win this championship, I don't think anyone would be stunned, despite the fact that they have been thoroughly outplayed for two games in this finals. Like they're in it very, they're very much in it. As the series flips back to Minneapolis.
- [40:45]
Sabrina Ionescu
Yeah, there's so many ways you can interpret what happened in the first two games because Minnesota is outplayed for the majority of those 85 minutes and yet they did steal one heading back into game three. Or New York has soundly controlled the action for two games and maybe they flipped the script from the regular season when Minnesota went 3:1 and you know, it looked like this was the worst possible matchup for the Liberty. So you can take some solace if you're the Liberty that we've controlled the terms of this series for most of it. And if we just keep playing the way we've been playing, we should be able to take care of things. It is interesting that of the six games they've played so far, regular season Commissioners cup finals, only one has been in Minnesota so far. Five of them have been in New York. So it's a little rare that it's taking this turn back to Minnesota. I'm interested to see how the Target fans, Target center fans respond. This is the first finals appearance for Minnesota since 2017. It's a fan base that was really good during that hall of Fame run when Minnesota was in the finals basically every year from 2011 to 2017, winning four titles in that span. But they haven't had a lot to cheer for since then. This is the first year that Minnesota's even won a playoff series since then 2017. So those fans, like you saw what happened in Barclays center last year when the Liberty finally got to host playoff games. This place was itching, you know, to celebrate some good basketball. And that's the same thing that's going to happen in Minnesota. And they know what it looks like. And I think that's going to be a crowd that is just ready to Go.
- [42:04]
Zena Keda
I agree. We were in the concourse and saw some Lynx fans with jackets that had multiple the years, the four years that they won. And they said we got space for the fifth. Okay, left the lower, lower arm bar open for their fifth. And so I think there are a lot of people that are itching to get the team back to Minnesota and hopefully get it wrapped up in four games.
- [42:25]
Ben Pickman
That will be one of the coolest parts and I think it has been one of the coolest parts of Minnesota's playoff run is how the Sylvia Fowles and the Lindsay Whelan's have seemingly been a part of this run with this current group. Lindsay Whelan made the trip to New York and I think in Game one people made a big deal that she was basically coaching from right behind the bench. I believe that's where she was sitting. Charl Reeve was talking about in the Connecticut series that Sylvia Fowles texts her all the time and sometimes they'll even text like during a game or at halftime of a game, which is kind of funny. Rebecca Brunson is obviously staff. You know, this Minnesota team is different than all of those, those teams with loaded with hall of Famers, but the kind of legacy of them is very much still a part of this team. It seems like, you know, if you told me that all of them would be there in person at game three, like I wouldn't be shocked about this. I think, you know, we remember see the extension, but we might see the physical manifestations of everyone also in person.
- [43:19]
Sabrina Ionescu
And even the one who seems most likely to not be in attendance, Maya Moore. The day of the Maya Moore jersey retirement was actually a day that Alanna Smith and Courtney Williams look back at as can you believe we were on the dysfunction that was the Chicago sky last year and now we're here in Minnesota getting to celebrate arguably the best franchise in the WNBA and were a part of it.
- [43:38]
Ben Pickman
Should we talk about Atlanta Smith for a second? I mean she was really, really good. I think in game two a bright spot for Minnesota, 16 points, eight rebounds. I think she played pretty good defense on Jonquil Jones who finished with just 14:9. It was really interesting to talk with LAN earlier this week just about how she approaches guarding jj. You know, LAN is undersized compared to jj, really compared to most players she plays against. And I asked her about her approach and she kind of talked about both taking a possession by possession but also being like really detail oriented. Like on this possession I'm going to box out or be really diligent. Of boxing out, or I need to cut off this angle on this possession or I need to be aware of how she screens on a certain possession. Like little details kind of help land focus, she was saying. And that's what she kind of keys in on. And we obviously saw her have a lot of success. We should also note that left ankle of hers seems to at least be some kind of nagging injury. We don't have any, you know, formal diagnosis there. No players have been on the injury report this series, though. Panajelaney Hamilton, as everyone talked about on Saturday and Sunday, is clearly still battling some knee soreness or some knee pain or knee something or another and is not 100%. Sandy Brondella was pretty open there. Alana Smith walked into the postgame press conference on Sunday afternoon. She had a big ice bag on her left ankle. We saw her get up slow. I want to say it was halftime. Stewie went up for like a half court heave of some sort and basically like came down and kind of took out lan knocked her to the floor and she went down hard in game one. So just from a health standpoint, as we like, you know, tie in some notes to this, we'll obviously see as the series progresses and it flips back what we learn. But that's another thing to be aware of too.
- [45:16]
Zena Keda
Alanna Smith was phenomenal and I believe Cheryl Reeves mentioned that in the post game press conference. It was just how much of a dog she is on defense and really focusing on JJ at the end of today's game. What, 14 points, but six of nine? I mean, even Nafisa caller was also really efficient. Those two have been consistently efficient, I think, for the links, but particularly Alanna Smith on defense doing the things that she needs to do after that gruesome ankle roll. Do not look it up, folks. It was really bad and it was almost like psycho behavior for her to get up and be like, I'm good, I'm walking on this and I'm gonna close the game out on that ankle injury. I was talking about that with our social person, Ashley, who's actually also in the building. Shout out to her. Before we get into predictions, I do want to shout out two fans that we met on the concourse, Cohen and Caitlin Liberty fans that said that the night after the game they woke up in the middle of the night thinking about that free throw. So apparently it was really in people's homes in their hearts and minds about that loss. So I am sure they feel redeemed and are very happy to go Home tonight and start their work week with a win for the liberty. 1:1. So now going to Minnesota. Want to get your thoughts, Sabrina? I'm gonna start with you predictions on this next game.
- [46:42]
Sabrina Ionescu
I think the Liberty have been the better team for almost the entirety of this series. I realize that the score margin doesn't suggest they have been convincingly better than Minnesota, but just the way that they have looked, the way that their defense has forced Minnesota to be uncomfortable for long stretches of the series. I think that's going to play out again and we're looking at a New York win in game three.
- [47:02]
Ben Pickman
I think I kind of agree with you. I don't feel a ton of conviction in that prediction. But I do think, like, going back to Minnesota, you can make the argument too, that there's a little bit more fanfare. You have to manage ticket requests. You got to manage a lot more family. Like, it's a lot more of a business trip. And we saw that actually from Minnesota here. I thought it was interesting. Like, their coaches, for instance, were all wearing, like, Minnesota links quarter zips, right. They, like, didn't really like their players in terms of, like, Runway walk ins. Like, didn't really do anything that flashy.
- [47:35]
Sabrina Ionescu
They were wearing hoodies on top of their jerseys when they came in, Right.
- [47:38]
Ben Pickman
Like, it felt like a pretty normal trip. And actually some players talked about that in the quick turnaround. Like, we've been playing every other day for a while. Like, this really felt no different between the semis and the finals. But I do think, like, in a finals environment, for a team that is experienced, that could also be a different. So Minnesota goes back home, suddenly a lot more people are interested, engaged, are asking for tickets or asking for things. You maybe open yourself up. And that is maybe one reason. But I think the bigger reason is just what you talked about, Sabrina. Like, New York certainly has had lapses. They've had lots of them, and they have almost cost them two, two games in this series. But they have been the better team and they have way more options. Like, as we talked about, you can get a laney game, you can get a feebic game. I think we're still waiting on the. The big UNESCO game. Right. She had a big quarter, but, like, when she gonna get 25? When's she gonna get 30? And we're still waiting on a big Stewie game too. And that's not to say that fee can't get 30, 35 as well, but I think New York just has more ways it can win.
- [48:35]
Zena Keda
Yeah.
- [48:36]
Ben Pickman
Whereas Minnesota's formula is a lot more just. Their possibilities are a lot more finite. They have fewer lottery balls, so to speak. Like in the pool.
- [48:44]
Zena Keda
I'd agree with all points made. This has been the recurring narrative around the Liberty all season long. Depth, depth, depth. It's the thing that the players reference as their thing that elevates them above every other team within the league. Their depth. And also the talent of their depth, their ability to show up. And so all of that is showcasing exactly what you just said. It's where I'm at mentally around this game. The only thing that I'm holding out for the Links is if there was a factor to rate Dawg, and I mean D, A, W, G. The Links have dog in them. They have that resilience. Sabrina, you mentioned it earlier, they've got a grittiness in them. And Nafisa used this word today. When you are in the finals, you've got to play with a desperation. And I think that that's what they play with that makes this kind of. I can't easily go with the Liberty. I haven't seen that desperation come out of the Liberty just yet. So in my opinion, I think the Minnesota Lynx come back with that desperation. They come out with that dog in them for their first game home, and they get the win at home. That's my prediction.
- [49:54]
Ben Pickman
It's good when we have a split table. That's. I think that's certainly interesting. One of us will be right or two of us will be right. One of us will be wrong. We're guaranteed some faulty predictions here. That's always a good thing.
- [50:04]
Zena Keda
Always. Well, we appreciate you all tuning in. Appreciate the hospitality you showed us. Brooklyn, Barclays Center. It's been fun for game one and two, but now the business continues in Minnesota. Minneapolis. Don't know if you're ready for us, but we're ready for you. All right, folks, on behalf of Ben Sabrina, it's Zena Kada signing out. Thank you for your ear. Thank you for listening. We are all here at the Athletic encouraging you to keep listening, keep watching, keep learning the game and keep loving it. Because that's the only way we're going to keep growing it. Until next time.
- [50:46]
Sabrina Ionescu
As we head into.
- [50:47]
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Ben Pickman
Will be a few calls made by.
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Liquid IV Spokesperson
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Ben Pickman
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Ben Pickman
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Zena Keda
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Zena Keda
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Sabrina Ionescu
Acast.com.