← No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
No Offseason: The Athletic Women's Basketball Show
WNBA Player Poll: Trash Talkers, Expansion + More
00:27:08
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- [00:00]
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- [01:57]
Zena Kada
Hello everyone and welcome to no off season. I'm Zena Kada.
- [02:01]
Sabrina Merchant
I'm Sabrina Merchant.
- [02:02]
Ben Pickman
And I'm Ben Pickman.
- [02:03]
Zena Kada
And today on the show we had questions. They had answers. We're digging into more responses for the Athletics WNBA player poll. We're hitting on expansion, cba, Wishlist, Moolah and more. All right, let's get right into it. So in case you didn't watch or catch the last episode we put out yesterday, Sabrina, can you fill us in on the details of the WNBA player poll, how it worked, what were the parameters? Lay it out.
- [02:29]
Ben Pickman
Yeah.
- [02:30]
Sabrina Merchant
So this is a poll that Ben and I and our colleague Shantelle Jennings conducted anonymously with players around the league. We have respondents from all 13 teams in the WNBA and we presented them With a series of 10 questions, they were able to skip any ones that they wanted or provide an answer, you know, if they chose. Um, as you can tell if you've looked on the site, there were a lot of skips. You know, the numbers do not all add up the same. Because people were more interested in answering some questions than others and because the poll contains a lot of questions about the health of the league and expansion and bigger top, we deliberately chose not to ask any rookies because we started conducting this poll in May and they had been in the league for all of a week by the time that we started conducting the poll. So this is all non rookies in the wnba. This is our sample size and we got about a third of those non rookies.
- [03:17]
Zena Kada
Okay, well, today we are turning our attention to some more business related questions and we gotta start with the hot topic of the moment, which is expansion. Where do actual players want to actually play?
- [03:32]
Ben Pickman
It's a good question, Xena, and I'm glad that you framed it as a hot topic question because the answer is a place in which the city gets very hot. That would be Miami, Florida. I don't know if you knew that when you asked the question or not, but I played very well. Miami was the overwhelming response that we received. And look, a lot of players said that they cited the weather, right? Like it's beautiful down there, it would be so nice to travel in the summer. And you know, some people mentioned the fans too. But like Miami, again, overwhelming favorite for us as a response and look unrivaled was down there. I think a lot of players also experience Miami in the winter, which is also a very nice place as well. But like a long road trip in Miami. I mean, a lot of players were saying like, who says no to that?
- [04:24]
Zena Kada
Also no state tax. I'm sure Sabrina that might have factored into it as well. I'm thinking, you know, outside of Miami, Miami LA is always like a hot spot to go. But were there any questions or responses that indicated maybe because of the, the fan vibe, this is where they would want to go? Or maybe the organization, like the people that are pushing for a particular city may have enticed players to want to play somewhere?
- [04:51]
Sabrina Merchant
So I didn't personally hear anything about organizations or the people making the bids, but I will say that geography kind of played an important factor here. If you think about the geographical makeup of the 13 current WNBA teams and the ones that are being projected to add, Atlanta is the only team that exists in the southeast of the United States. And so Miami obviously would help solve that because it is in the Southeast of the United States. And another answer that we got frequently was Nashville or you know, we even had somebody who just said like somewhere in the Southeast. Because that is just where you're missing this, you know, geographical location, right? Like Atlanta, I think is the only team within an eight state region in the Southeast. So if you're a young girl who like watches the South Carolina Gamecocks or watches, you know, any of the teams in North Carolina or it's just in that general area of the United States, that's the only team you can really drive to go see is the Atlanta Dream. So to help resolve that just by bringing more teams to that general area of the United States, I think is something that was on the players minds. And we should mention that when we started asking this question, none of the expansion teams had been announced yet. Cleveland, Detroit or Philadelphia. So by the time we concluded conducting the poll, expansion had been announced. And so players were, I think less interested in saying the teams that had actually been announced so far. But you'll notice in the answers of the poll like we got Cleveland a couple times, but Detroit and Philadelphia don't come up. And that was before they were even answered. So like announced as expansion teams. So it's not like, oh, people saw that they were already getting teams and then decided like, I'm not going to use that as one of my answers. They didn't come up at all.
- [06:22]
Zena Kada
I'm wondering if the WNBA polled at all in terms of, you know, making that decision for the teams that they did decide upon in Cleveland, Detroit and Philadelphia. And it's worth saying, like we talk about the Southeast of the United States, like Charlotte Sting did exist, the Miami Soul did exist. These were teams that have since folded. And so there's an opportunity and there's a fan base and there's a history and a culture that does exist in these poor, in these, you know, pockets of the Southeast. And yeah, it definitely makes sense. I mean, as a girl that grew up in North Carolina, that is why I'm like particularly drawn to ACC basketball. And I was drawn to ACC basketball even before I was drawn to the wnba. Ben.
- [07:07]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean that's a really good point. And that's why again, Nashville and Charlotte received a good amount of responses kind of in our poll. But I like that you raised the did the WNBA office ask players question here? Because the league office would probably say like they consulted or they looked at whatever 20, 25 different kinds of metrics in Determining their eventual expansion cities. We should say like we ask all of these questions in kind of like a rapid fire succession. So there is no, there's no data analysis that is going on. We're not preempting anyone with here's the market size, here is the population, here's what the average Nielsen rating is, here's what corporate partnerships and brands are based in that city. Like we're not doing any of that. This is just like straight off the cuff. And that I think kind of plays into again the perceptions that, that people have. One interesting one, someone throughout a Vancouver got one response. I thought that was kind of interesting. And we got a bunch of Boston's as well which you know, a lot of people are saying could the Connecticut sun eventually move there? You know, we'll see. But interesting to hear another northeast city even with all the expansion that has happened in the Northeast over the next.
- [08:14]
Sabrina Merchant
Couple years in the W. I should clarify. Philly did get one vote. I don't see Detroit on the list but there was one vote for Philadelphia. So not a total loss for the WNBA expansion project.
- [08:25]
Zena Kada
Got you, got you. I do feel like I've heard so much about Boston and of course we've seen the Connecticut sun bring their games to Boston and how well that game, those games have performed in terms of just support and all the above. And I'm like, yeah, I feel like you're double dip in if you're doing that. Like the Connecticut sun could easily become Boston's team at that point. It just be a little bit. Oh, would you say?
- [08:52]
Ben Pickman
Well, I was going to say the timing of you raising that point is a good one, Xena. Because when you are listening to this podcast, the Connecticut sun will have already just played the Indiana Fever on Tuesday night in Boston in the Sun's annual game in that city. A sellout crowd again. They blew it up on sports radio in Boston. I think they took it. They aired the broadcast over the airwaves or that was the plan. Like clearly there's a bunch of other events. The city was very excited to host the sun for the second consecutive year.
- [09:27]
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- [10:26]
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- [12:07]
Zena Kada
Mappy brought up. You know, just the blowing up of games, the ticket sales, the the, the making sure that everyone is hearing about these games because all of that contributes to ding ding ding basketball related income. And if you listen to our show about the CBA about the value that players have to the wnba, you'll know that basketball related income is a very important factor when it comes to the revenue share component of the so we got to talk about money. Moolah lajean okay, and you guys asked a couple questions about the CBA salary expectations. And I want to know what did you guys hear from the players? Sabrina, I'll start with you.
- [12:50]
Trisha Hershberger
Yeah.
- [12:50]
Sabrina Merchant
So one of the questions we asked was if there was one thing you could include in the new cpa, what would it be? And overwhelmingly, like two thirds of the responses here, even more than that were higher salaries, just more money.
- [13:02]
Zena Kada
Right.
- [13:02]
Sabrina Merchant
Like, we've heard a lot of priorities given by the wnbpa, including like revenue share and pension and all sorts of things like that. I mean, roster spots is something that comes up as well. But when it comes to one thing that you would want to include in the new cba, it is all about the money. Maximum salary right now is $250,000. We had an additional question about what the maximum salary should be that bank can get into, but it's just too low for what the WNBA is bringing in, revenue wise. And so that, I mean, like, this was the question that had the most consensus of anything that we asked. It was just players want higher salaries. Period.
- [13:39]
Zena Kada
Period. That's exactly where it lands. I mean, Ben, I don't know. We talked about this in our show about the cba, et cetera. Like, I don't know that the WNBA can get away from this question, like this particular portion of it. With all of the growth that's happening, with all of this, you know, this investment that's happening, they cannot cry poor and they can't say that they can't afford to pay these players or else that means that they're not making money. And if you ask anybody who got their seats this season and saw their seat prices raise and saw all this, you know, everything else just in the world and ecosystem of the WNBA rise, they. They gotta, they gotta answer about something when it comes to these salaries.
- [14:24]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean, that is a question. I'm sure, you know, players. The CBA is asking players what is important to them and then they're asking a follow up of what do you think the max salary should be? And they're certainly consulting a whole team of experts when they ask that question too. When we asked that question, I guess the answer we got more than anything else was as high as possible. Which I think is a pretty human and relatable answer. Because I don't want to speak for you, Xena, or you, Sabrina, but if someone was going to ask you, Xena, how much do you want to get paid? You would probably say as much as possible.
- [14:57]
Zena Kada
Yeah, there you go. As much as possible.
- [15:00]
Ben Pickman
So that was the answer we got the most when we heard that question. We did hear some actual kind of then more granular or tangible numbers. A million dollars. Eight players said that at least one million was another response we got from a few players. Two said 1.5 million. Yeah, two players said 1.5 million and some said even less. Honestly, one player said something fair, which I think is another reasonable response. So we did get a little bit of a range. Some players also skipped that question, again, not wanting to give away any leverage potentially or because they felt that they were not informed enough on the topic or didn't feel comfortable sharing. But money is definitely important. We should shout out. Sabrina mentioned it. The two players who said pension, that is what we call some real long term planning. And we think about money and retirement and adding pensions like, you know, claps to those players who said pensions. Because anyone can get paid right now, Xena. But when you're trying to do some life planning, like that's where that pension plan can come in, come in handy.
- [16:12]
Zena Kada
I know these player polls were anonymous, but the players that we said yesterday as our voices of the league, I feel like maybe they could have been the ones influencing that sort of response because that is so true. These players put their bodies on the line for years and years and years and they finish playing, what do they have to show for it? What kind of things can they, you know, be able to make sure that their families themselves are protected long after they play? What else came up? Because one of the things I'm very curious about is when the teams expanded and Cleveland and Detroit and Philadelphia were announced, it wasn't a resounding applause, it wasn't a yes, a cheer heard through and rippling through all the wnba. Some folks wanted roster spots before expansion teams. You know, some folks wanted other priorities before expansion teams. So what was next up on the CBA negotiations in terms of priorities beyond, of course, as much money as possible?
- [17:11]
Sabrina Merchant
Well, it's interesting that you bring up roster spots because one of the things that I've done while we've been collecting this poll is looking back at what the players poll said in 2023, the last time we conducted this exercise. And at that point there were 12 teams in the WNBA. You know, golden State was in the process of being announced, but I don't think it's had it actually happened yet. So it was still 12 team league for the foreseeable future. And the question that we had asked was what would you rather have more roster spots or league expansion? And a majority of the answers were more roster spots. So, you know, for that to not have happened yet. Right. Is an interesting look into the player psyche then. And obviously it was not the preeminent concern because again, the question was one thing you could include in the new CBA and money takes precedent to the new roster spots. But I thought that was an interesting. Just look back as to, you know, only two years ago what WNBA players were thinking.
- [18:03]
Ben Pickman
Well, and if, and if we compile on with that, like two years ago we also did a survey, anonymous GM survey, Sabrina and I did not that we are only doing again, we're not just doing polls and pollster. We have other jobs at the Athletic. We do other things too, as you well know. But like we asked GMs what should be prioritized in the next CBA negotiation. And for this question, so many GMs had a lot of thoughts, not surprisingly so. But the, the response we heard the most from, I think it was four GMs at that time was travel. Right. That was the most important thing that executives said was very important in the issue of charter travel. That seems to be something that obviously in the last subsequent two years the league has evolved on and resolved that issue. They've addressed it. Right. Exactly. With the current charter flights policy. Now what is interesting is we did have a player or two, I want to say, reference minimum standards, like work standards. And that is something that is this broad umbrella term that you've heard maybe some players talk about in recent weeks and months that refers to things like facility, you know, codifying things as it relates to a facility or you know, resources for families. That is something that can also, you know, some players said that specifically. But like that can also fit into the minimum standards bucket where like, you know, having a facility must have a nursery room, for instance, for families. Codifying things like charter flights can also fit into something like minimum standards. Because I'm sure that the PA in the upcoming negotiation is going to want to get in writing fully in the cba, like what the travel conditions are going forward. So it is interesting again as a look back exercise to see how much things have changed over the last two years. But you know, flights and travel important then seemingly less important from the player perspective at least now.
- [19:58]
Zena Kada
Yeah. Which makes sense. I mean, they were able to address that aspect of it. And I'm, I'm looking at the W, like, okay, y' all read that article. You didn't read the other one about the players wanting roster spots before expansion teams. But that's okay. We'll, we'll, we'll let you we're, we're calling you out right now. W. Listen to this now. Players now want money. Okay? They want that more than anything. Hopefully they're listening to that and making sure that that's a priority. I, it's so funny. I'm listening to all of this and I'm, I'm, I'm wondering. It must feel, really. You must feel the pressure if you're in the WNBA office in terms of what was set up and unrivaled. Right. Like, Ben, you were down there and you saw some of the things that you just listed codified. You saw the elements of, of, you know, supporting mothers and making sure that the FAC facilities in which players played in were equal across the board. Like, you saw all of these things be a part of the entire mix. Of course, Unrivaled happened in one space. It is significantly harder to be able to do that across landscapes, across different economic situations, different work environments. Yeah, different work environments all across the country. But there is something to be said that they were able to do it. And so I'm just wondering, do you think that that impacts the players being like, listen, it happened here, figure it out. WNBA is the standard even higher now because it actually happened with Unrivaled.
- [21:27]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, absolutely. And I wrote a little bit about this back in March at the end of the unrivaled season about ways that that league could influence the wnba. And one of the things that we highlighted in that piece was just that idea. Exactly. Xena, that like, yeah, the, you know, they're not totally analogous. Right. You know, Unrivaled is funded differently. It's a 10 week season, it's single site this past year, its footprint, as we said, very different. It's a different style of play. Like there are differences. And yet it is another high level competitive alternative that is based in the United States where a lot of the best players in the world can play. And so, yeah, it definitely showed what is possible, I think in the eyes of some players. And it definitely helped shape, like, wow, this is a league that just was built out of the ground. And here's what we have in year one, whereas the WNBA is going on, you know, it'll almost be three decades old. And here's what players are still asking for in the wnba. Again, that's. They're two different leagues. But certainly it serves as a, a reference point. Even if some people maybe in the league office would say it's a little bit of an unfair reference point. Sure.
- [22:44]
Zena Kada
Yeah. No, that makes sense. That makes sense. All right. Well, listen, we're rooting for everyone to win here, rooting for the players to get some money, rooting for the WNBA to figure it out, to be able to make it make some money and make some money for the league as well. But I'm happy that we were able to get these questions asked. Foreign.
- [23:07]
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- [24:10]
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Shopping all at the same time. That's my kind of multitasking.
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- [25:22]
Zena Kada
So now let's get off the money a little bit back to the court. Okay and I'm excited for this question. Got one last thing to discuss. It's not going to be who's going to win the title. I know we're going to get into that later this week, but right now we're talking trash, okay? We're talking a little bit of spice out on the floor. And you guys asked who the best trash talker in the WNBA is. We have to set up the context here. That easily the answer for years was Diana Taurasi. You want to talk about a legend in the game when it comes to trash talk? Absolutely. Diana Taurasi. And we say that in the most respectful of ways. Okay, but now opportunity to pass the torch. And I've seen a lot. I've seen a lot out there. I've seen a lot of F bombs. But we gotta understand this. Let's make a difference here. It's not just who's cussing out the refs, right? It's people who are maybe cussing out the refs, but are also making you question your entire decision to play professional basketball on a daily basis. Okay, that is. That is true trash talk. That makes you go, do I want to lace up today? Do I still want to play this game? To your core. They get to it. So before we reveal, I got some guesses as to who the top trash talker is. My instinct is to say Marina Mabry. That's just my instinct. But I want to know where it landed. Let me know. How off am I? Where do we land on this one?
- [27:10]
Sabrina Merchant
Marina was third on the list. People are aware of Marina's proclivity for being in dust ups when they happen. She will readily admit to that too. So I think Marina, perfectly reasonable answer. Not the most common answer, but four responses for Marina Mabry.
- [27:28]
Zena Kada
Yeah, okay. Okay. All right. I like it. I like it. Ben, just reveal it to us. Who was the best trash talker in the game?
- [27:36]
Ben Pickman
That would be Alyssa Thomas of the Phoenix Mercury who has, you know, she has taken the baton from Diana Taurasi. And in this new era of new era of the Phoenix Mercury, she is carrying the baton of elite trash talking, at least per players into the next generation.
- [27:54]
Zena Kada
That is someone that absolutely will make me question if I want to still play basketball ever again. Ben, you got a game for us?
- [28:01]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I got a game for us. As we close out this show, Zena, it's on the theme of trash talking and really just buzzy quotes in general. Just some things that, that I've heard over the last month that have kind of caught my ear. Some might be related to some of the players we've talked about, some might not. And I just want you to know it's a very simple who am I? I'm just going to throw a quote from a player or coach out and you just have to tell me who said it. Sound good?
- [28:25]
Zena Kada
Sounds great.
- [28:27]
Ben Pickman
Great. Here's the quote. I'm used to this team reading at a PhD level. I think we've been reading more at a middle school level. Any guesses as to who said that?
- [28:39]
Zena Kada
It's gotta be strong for you. It's gotta be Cheryl Reeve or Becky Hammond.
- [28:44]
Sabrina Merchant
It's one of the two.
- [28:47]
Ben Pickman
It is, it is. Becky Hammond is Becky Hammond. She was talking about the Las Vegas Aces and how, you know, they used to, I guess, be able to read and react at a very high level and now she's trying to teach them at a more basic level. When Becky said it, I should say she recognized that that was kind of a buzzy quote and then tried to explain the analogy a little bit more. But there you go, full of context there. Quote number two. I think this is a gimme as well quote, Kathy called me. I actually declined the phone call at first because I didn't have the number. Xena. Sabrina's laughing because she knows, but Xena, do you know who said this?
- [29:24]
Zena Kada
Kathy called me. I feel like this is like an Alicia Gray quote.
- [29:30]
Ben Pickman
That is, that is. Is that your final guess or.
- [29:36]
Zena Kada
Or Briana Stewart? No, Brianna would definitely have her number.
- [29:40]
Ben Pickman
Sabrina, you want to do.
- [29:42]
Zena Kada
Who is it you wanna reveal?
- [29:43]
Sabrina Merchant
Courtney Williams. When Kathy called her about becoming an All Star.
- [29:46]
Zena Kada
Oh yes, that's right. Oh gosh, I should have known that. That's a good one. I could just imagine saying that though.
- [29:55]
Sabrina Merchant
Hope she did.
- [29:55]
Zena Kada
Yeah, I'm sure she did.
- [29:56]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, Hope she did. And we should say Courtney Williams second on the trash talking list. Quote number three. And I should say I have four quotes here. I would dunk on everybody. It's not just one. Everybody getting dunked on lineup, everybody getting head tapped, especially you and this player then pointed at a particular player. Anyone want to take a guess as to who's dunking on whom and who is talking trash in that way?
- [30:22]
Sabrina Merchant
So I've seen this social post of like the players get asked, you know, if you could dunk on one person on your team, who would you dunk on? And I want to say this was like an LA Sparks thing, but I can't remember, like who was the one who's saying they dunk on everyone. It feels like a Raider KIA thing to say, right? Yeah.
- [30:42]
Ben Pickman
Yeah.
- [30:43]
Zena Kada
I feel like this is a Rekia.
- [30:44]
Ben Pickman
Jackson quote that is a Rekia Jackson quote.
- [30:47]
Zena Kada
Okay, well done, guys.
- [30:49]
Ben Pickman
Well done. Yes, well done.
- [30:52]
Zena Kada
Also, Rickia Jackson was talking some trash the other night. Oh, my God.
- [30:56]
Sabrina Merchant
So much trash to Briar.
- [30:57]
Zena Kada
It was hot.
- [30:58]
Sabrina Merchant
It was hot in the Instagram comments afterwards too.
- [31:02]
Zena Kada
Oh, yeah.
- [31:02]
Sabrina Merchant
Keep, keep.
- [31:04]
Zena Kada
Go check that out.
- [31:05]
Sabrina Merchant
Alive and well.
- [31:06]
Ben Pickman
One last quote, and I should say this comes from a player. It's a spoiler. Who? I don't think she is a big trash talker, but I wanted to include it anyway. And the quote is simple. I signed up for a membership for Six Flags.
- [31:20]
Sabrina Merchant
What does this have to do with trash talk?
- [31:22]
Ben Pickman
It doesn't, but it's just a fun quote that I thought it should end it on.
- [31:26]
Zena Kada
I know who it is. It's Leigh Yuru.
- [31:28]
Sabrina Merchant
Yep.
- [31:30]
Ben Pickman
Oh, my God.
- [31:31]
Zena Kada
Yes.
- [31:31]
Ben Pickman
That is correct. Well done, Xena.
- [31:34]
Zena Kada
So many hearts out to Leigh Rue. She's in for a good quote.
- [31:38]
Ben Pickman
It's pretty much the opposite of trash talking. There's a video out there from a couple weeks ago of Leroux reflecting on a trip that the Dallas Wings made on an off day to one of the local Six Flags. And she's talking about how she hated all the roller coasters that were, you know, up and down and very scary and just high speed. And she liked, I think, the, like the, I guess the kitty cups a little more. I want to say that's the. The ride. I'm not a roller coaster expert. More, but Lee gave two and a half minutes of great Six Flags analysis and then she concluded it by saying that she signed up for a membership.
- [32:11]
Zena Kada
Which I didn't know was possible. Wow. I just love Liyoru. Thank you, Ben, for that amazing game. And if we're talking about signing up for any, anything, y' all need to be signing up for this show, okay? You need to be subscribing because we're gonna keep being beat here. We're gonna keep being here. We're gonna have more content for you. That's why you gotta come back tomorrow. We've got a special episode featuring different kinds of power rankings, franchise power rankings featuring the players thoughts on the best and worst run organizations in the wnba. And so that's why you gotta go follow the show. Be like Lil Rue and Six Flags. Here's the analogy. You with no off season. Okay. Sign up, make sure that you're coming back, you're enjoying. We're. We're kitty cup rides if you want, but we also are roller coasters. Okay. We got a lot of that. Also head on over to our Partner yahoo sports hub sports.yahoo.com womens-sports on behalf of the Athletic Ben Pickman Sabrina Merchant the Rides at Six Flags I'm Zena Keda. Thanks for listening. We'll see you guys next time. No Off Season is hosted by Zena Kada with Chantelle Jennings, Sabrina Merchant and Ben Pickman. It's produced by Tanika Burrell. Our executive producers are Andrea B. Scott and Cassius Fleming. Our theme music is by Marcus Bagala. Monica Compton is our video editor. Shannon Ryan is managing editor of Women's Basketball at the Athletic. Jesse Burton is our head of audio and Tim McMaster is director of Audio operations. Foreign.
- [33:43]
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