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- [00:00]
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- [01:39]
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- [02:01]
Zena Keda
There to watch them.
- [02:02]
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- [03:09]
Zena Keda
Love.
- [03:10]
Sabrina Ionescu
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- [05:14]
Zena Keda
For the athletic I'm Zena Keda and this is the Athletic Women's Basketball show brought to you by AT&T. Welcome back to another episode of the Athletic Women's Basketball show where we are here to talk all Things, women's hoops, of course. Right now, the time is to talk about the playoffs as the WNBA semifinals are going on. Last night, as of the day that we're recording this, this two games went down. Vegas Aces matched up against the New York Liberty and took an L84 to 88. We're going to talk about that in a second. And then right after that, the Minnesota Links took on the Connecticut sun and redeemed themselves in Target center, taking home the win and now making that Series 1 1. But let's, let's turn our attention first to things that's going on in New York because after last night's game, I, I went on Google, particularly Gemini. If you haven't heard of the new AI app that they have, you know, not saying anything, this is the AT&T podcast. Not trying to get sponsor or anything from them, but Google has been helping me with a lot of questions, particularly ones that come into my mind as things are falling apart on my television screen. And I asked Gemini, has anyone ever come back from an 02 deficit in the WNBA playoffs? Gemini informed me, no, no, they have not. They have not. And my heart dropped a little bit more for the Aces. And I laugh because all season long, if you've been listening to us during the regular season, it usually was directed to Sabrina, but oftentimes sometimes did Ben as well. Should we be worried about the Aces? This question popped up in our conversation several times, folks. And each time I felt, maybe not yet, maybe not quite. Chelsea Gray's on the way back. Maybe not quite. This team's gonna start gelling after the Olympic break. Maybe not quite, folks. I think it's time, it's officially time we start being concerned about what is going on with the Aces as they go down zero and two in the WNBA semifinals. Ben Pickman, I need you to tell me what's going on because there are a lot of people in the building. From tv, I saw Maria Taylor, Robin Roberts, Carmelo Anthony, Alicia Keys. I mean, the list and list and list goes. But I'll tell you who really was in the building. The New York Liberty set the scene for Barclays center for our listeners.
- [07:53]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, it was another great crowd inside Barclays Center. You mentioned it. Tons of celebrities in attendance. It was a vice presidential debate last night, but Gayle King and Robin Roberts were both sitting courtside watching the New York Liberty and Las Vegas Aces. Hopefully they had themselves or producers or someone caught them up on the vice presidential debate ahead of morning television. This morning, though, I did not watch that Because I was asleep. So I cannot confirm nor deny what happened on those shows.
- [08:18]
Zena Keda
Priorities, folks. They got their priorities in order.
- [08:22]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, but you know, and then tip off happened and the Las Vegas Aces did throw the first punch of the game. They looked, you know, physically they were far more engaged though at times. You know, Becky Hammond said it afterwards, the effort was there, the energy was there, but also there were moments that were just a little unwise. They committed a bunch of not very smart fouls early on in the first quarter. Kelsey Plum picked up two fouls. The game struggled to get have much flow in the very beginning and, but nevertheless, Las Vegas led 27:22 after the first quarter. But from there, Xena, the game was very, very different. And things started to unravel a little bit in the second quarter and by halftime the stat that the Las Vegas Aces mentioned over and over and over again in their post game press conference was that New York had 20 points off turnovers in the first half. And those kind of self inflicted wounds, those miscues really did prove to be the difference in a game whose margin was only four points and you know, really did come down to the final wire here.
- [09:20]
Zena Keda
What's interesting is you particularly mentioned, you know, Kelsey Plumb with those two fouls and or just the fouls in general in the first half of the game and things looking a little bit janky when you think about the performance that Kelsey Plum had in the first game against Liberty and being so key and crucial to their offense flowing. I feel as if those two fouls that she picked up quickly, one of which was her on Feebich, which shows you just how much the size advantage here the New York Liberty have over the Aces. I feel like that took her a little bit out of her game. Sabrina, what did you see in terms of the New York Liberty kind of shutting Kelsey Plumb down as a secondary scorer for the, for the Aces?
- [10:04]
Courtney Williams
Well, I think it just kind of depends on the matchups too. Right. Like Benijelini Hamilton is on Chelsea Gray and Sabrina Unescu was mostly guarding Jackie Young. So that left Leonie Fibich to guard Kelsey Plum. And that's just a lot of arms, a lot of length on her. The broadcast made a very funny note during the game that during the middle of the season when the Aces play the Liberty, Kelsey went up to Leo and was like, it looks like you just keep getting taller. And Leo joked with her like you just keep getting smaller. So there's just a big size difference between the two of them and it's just hard for Kelsey to create her get to her spots, you know, when there's somebody who can match her movements and even if she can get beat, can easily recover to contest because of, you know, the length and the size. So I think that was part of it. Just like the matchups. You know, considering Kelsey got off in game one, it made sense that the Liberty would adjust to try to take her away in game two. Um, but, yeah, the. The foul trouble was definitely part of it, and it definitely got in Kelsey's head on defense because there were so many possessions where, you know, she's left on an island inside, like Kayla Thornton's right there in the post. And what is Kelsey supposed to do except just let her score over and over again? And that leads to just getting berated by Becky Hammond on the bench for layups. Layups. Layups. So it was a tough night. Tough night for kp.
- [11:16]
Zena Keda
Definitely a tough night. I don't know how many times I saw her going under screens or going through screens with her hands up, like, not being able to touch her. Her, you know, assignment. Speaking of being berated, I mean, who. I've seen Becky Hammond mad. I thought, I've seen Becky Hammond mad. I felt like I was the target through the TV of Becky Hammond going in on her team, particularly after strings and strings of turnovers. Ben, you were in the media room post game. I've read some of the comments, but I can only imagine how they come off. What was it like to hear Becky Hammond evaluate her team's performance after the game?
- [11:57]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean, Becky Hammond really did, I guess, blow off Steam for 15 minutes post game, just kind of letting loose any and everything that was on her mind. She went from, you know, Sabrina mentioned the layups, and Becky Hammond compared it to a layup clinic for the New York Liberty. And, you know, Becky Hammond went from saying that, like, she's okay when she's getting mad at the refs and has to call timeouts because the refs or has to call a timeout because the Liberty or the opponent are doing something great. But what makes her really upset is when her team is just making mistakes and shooting themselves in the foot and she has to call timeouts there. Like, we saw that she basically took consecutive timeouts, you know, on basically two straight possessions. @ one point in this game that was, you know, highlighted by Plum and Kia Stokes kind of blowing an assignment and leading to a Thornton layup. As Sabrina alluded. She talked about, you know, her team not having an edge at the start of the year and said, you know, when you're in all these commercials and you're basically more famous, like, you lose some of that competitive fire that you had. She acknowledged, which she has done a number of times actually this series, that New York has just been the best team all year and is playing with an edge and a fire right now that they didn't have last year. She compared the Liberty and the aces to the 2013 and 14 NBA Finals. The famous Ray Allen, you know, three point shot that lifted the Heat over the spurs in one Finals. And then the next year, of course, the spurs end up beating the Heat in five games, you know, having lost in seven the year before. And basically, in that analogy, her team is the Miami Heat. They are the loser of the 2014. That's that season's Finals. So, like, she's basically saying, like, oh, the Liberty are en route to being the champion or en route to beating us in that analogy. Like, that's not exactly the analogy you want to dust off. I mean, you could go on and on about some of the things she said. Like, she was asked about post game one. She said that game two was do or die. And someone asked her, you know, basically, so now that game two is over and you've lost, like, what's your message now? And she said, did I say it was a must win? I was lying. Like, I was just trying to create drama. Like, she had one liner, she had quips. It was really a 15 minutes to behold. And it was really hard to disagree with any of the things she said because as you set it up, Zena, at the start of the show, like, no team has ever come back from 20 down, and new York has just looked like the better team through two games. Yes, Game two was far more competitive and Las Vegas did a really good job and frankly, like, had a very real chance of stealing that game. I kept texting and messaging Sabrina throughout the fourth quarter that Las Vegas was lurking and that, you know, suddenly it's just a one possession game and they had chances in the final minute or two, multiple possessions in which they could have taken the lead. But I think there was also an acknowledgment that, like, they squandered a golden opportunity here to level the series, and the task ahead of them is very, very, very daunting.
- [14:50]
Zena Keda
I think that's the thing that was so tough to watch, is that they started strong, right? Like, it felt as if they had heard the message. You saw Chelsea Gray and Jackie Young immediately come out as offensive weapons. I mean, I think both of them were like 2 for 2 or 3 for 3 as they started out. You saw the smart move of moving Kia Stokes to the bench and bringing out Alicia Clark. She hits the first three of the game, goes 2 for 2 from 3. You're like, immediately, okay, the Aces are. They're back, they're getting it. They understand this is what you expect out of this team. And then as the game went on, that vote of confidence that you had kind of started just, I don't know, dissipating. Just the same way that it sound like Becky Hammond sounded like that in their post game press conference where it was just a little bit of dissipation of I don't know what the hell we're doing. But, you know, eventually I'm sure her as a coach will get them back together. Now, I would be remiss to not talk about the Liberty side. Of course, the thing that made things difficult more than anything, there were two things that stood out to me. Sabrina Unescu. We have talked about her and her improvement on this show. Sabrina, you have made a case over the course of the season of just how much better she's getting as well as you been and I've. And it's just been on such display in these playoffs. But then also Courtney Vandersloop coming off the bench, she's like, okay, I know you guys have replaced me with size. I respect the decision. I'm going to come out and start blocking people like I'm Leonie. Feverish size and making amazing plays on defense and creating offense there. Let's start with Sabrina first. Sabrina. Let's talk about Sabrina. Let's talk about Unescu. And just the. The jump her game has had. She had an answer for every single thing that the Aces were doing. What impressed you most about what she was doing out there, like, on the court?
- [16:51]
Courtney Williams
I just think, you know, Ben and I talked about this over the course of the game, just how patient she was. You know, her decision making was really smart. You know, if the Liberty were sending two to the ball and she could string out the defense and it was just, you know, firing a pass into the lane, finding the open player, getting the ball, you know, getting the defense in rotation. If they went under a screen, she immediately pops from three point range. Like, there is no conscience on Sabrina Nescu. You see some players, they're hesitant to shoot if they've missed a couple in a row. That does not happen with Sabrina. Like, if the shot is open, she is going to take it. And that puts a lot of strain on a defense to know that if you make one mistake, she's firing. As you mentioned, Courtney Vandersloot had that block in transition. Sabrina UNESCO, I think, like a couple possessions before that also had a block like right at the rim. Just a interesting little sequence of their. One weak Link in the 2023 finals was their perimeter defense. And just an immediate, like, rebuttal to that. Like, hey, we can block shots too. Like, we're right here.
- [17:42]
Zena Keda
Yes, I love that you mentioned that because that was a complete flip of the finals was the Aces in this past. In these two games this year, the perimeter defense has been lackluster in comparison to last year. And now I feel like it's flipped. And you saw that of Courtney Vandersloot as well.
- [18:00]
Courtney Williams
Right. And then I think just the main thing with Sabrina is how well she runs pick and roll with Jonquil Jones. Just all of the options that they have out of that, you know, Jonquill can pop out of it, Jonquill can roll out of it. Sometimes Jonquil just sets a screen and lets Sabrina get to the basket, where she's been a really good finisher around the room. She made all of her two point baskets in the fourth quarter of that game, you know, when she basically tried to put the game on ice, you know, although the Aces kept lurking, as Ben alluded to. And I mean, like, I know objectively Brianna Stewart is like the best player around the New York. Liberty and Jonquil Jones had an excellent season. But there's just something about the way that the Barclays crowd responds to Sabrina Unescu. And I realize she's the one who's been there the longest, but there's something just magnetic about her game that galvanizes people and she really plays into that. Like she knows what kind of effect it will have when she hits a particular shot. And I thought just her stepping up to the moment, not being afraid to miss a shot at the end. Like there was a moment when it was, I believe, 83 to 81 and Liberty have the ball and she takes three and she misses it and she just goes diving to the floor to try to save it on the other end. And yeah, it doesn't save the possession. She didn't make the three. But there's a confidence to step up at those particular moments that she really embraces and she really wants to be the one to deliver for her home fans. And I just love watching that relationship between her and fans, even only on tv. But yeah, she just has a Sense of, like, what she's capable of doing and to see her progression, you know, as we've talked about over these last five years, from, you know, someone who barely could, like, move on her ankle in her first full season in 2021, to doing everything that she is on the court right now. It's really cool to watch.
- [19:36]
Zena Keda
I think it's really cool to see fans who may not have known about her organ domination and because of the 2020 bubble season, like, did not truly get a grasp of how good of a score she is, finally seeing that on display. I know Sabrina mentioned just feeling it through the screen. I felt it through the screen too, Ben. Like, you were there. At one point, I saw Sabrina like, dap up Carmelo Anthony and I was like, if the New York connections don't stop happening, I freaked out. Like, between Spike Lee injecting New York into her veins and game one of this series and then a dap up with Carmelo Anthony, Knicks legend, it just feels like it's palpable, the love that the New York crowd has for Sabrina.
- [20:21]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, I mean, honestly, Xena, I actually don't think it was a dab up of Melo, per se. I think she kind of fell into Melo, like, going for a loose ball or a steal.
- [20:29]
Zena Keda
Yeah, she did. She did. That's a whole.
- [20:31]
Ben Pickman
Like, then they had a good exchange, but it's like, you know, Melo was basically sitting in the same seat that Spike Lee was in a couple nights ago. But it was like, what are the odds that of all the seats you could fall into, you're falling into Carmelo Anthony's la. That was. You're right. I mean, that was an amazing moment for the crowd and the crowd loved it. I should also note, since we're on the topic of Carmelo Anthony, they showed him on the Jumbotron as they have done. I think he was at a game earlier this year. I think listeners would appreciate knowing when they air a highlight reel of Mello before introducing his face and showing him. They don't include any highlights from the New York Knicks. It's all USA Basketball highlights. So you just see like, you know, USA Mellow, which everybody loves, but there's no Knicks footage shown. It's just USA Basketball. USA Basketball. USA Basketball. And then they like, put mellow up on the screen. So I figured you guys would like that.
- [21:17]
Zena Keda
Of that New York level of petit. That's respect. That is respect. Barclays center, they know what's up. I respect that.
- [21:25]
Ben Pickman
They definitely do. And you definitely see to Sabrina's point. Like, you see Sabrina Unescu really do embrace the crowd with emphatic fist bumps, with nods, with how she waves them on in different moments. You know, for me, and maybe this is a little bit of recency bias and I'm going to tease a story I have coming out on the site sooner than later. We'll see when, you know, yesterday afternoon. So we're recording this on Wednesday, so Tuesday afternoon. I actually talked to Sabrina Unescu's trainer, skills trainer, for about an hour in the afternoon just to learn more about some of the work that they've done. And I'll just share one detail from that conversation and through their off season last year, one of the things that stuck out to me when we were talking was Sabrina is very self motivated. She challenges herself, you know, more than anyone else challenging her. And so one of the things that she often does in workouts is she'll be like, okay, I need to make 15 three pointers, catch and shoot three pointers from this spot, but I need to make them all as swishes. And I'm going to self referee, right? Like if I see a shot that might graze the rim even a little bit, that doesn't count, we're starting the set over. Or like she'll go to the basket and she'll attack the rim and she'll be like, okay, I need to make a certain number of right handed layups that I'm going to go right hand, right hand only, off the bank, not use the left for a gather right. Or I'm going to go left hand, you know, this dribble combination. And I'm going to make it and it has to hit this spot exactly. Like she's basically challenging herself the way I thought about it, to like a game of horse, right? To like bring out different moves in her bag. And that was the kind of thing that I kept imagining when I was watching her last night. Because in the fourth quarter, she scores 11 points in that final quarter. Like I haven't watched it back fully, but just instant reaction. Like she's making all different kinds of layups at different angles, like left hand, right hand, contorting herself around Asia Wilson, you know, hitting floaters, contests, like just shots that she has clearly practiced but that like take a very specific level of practice, right? They are not just like traditional right handed, left handed layups. And I do think like it was a reminder to me than watching it like, oh, this is the hard work that really is paying off. And you see someone who is so self motivated and so competitive and so driven and then it come pays off in that kind of moment in the fourth quarter and you do see like she is a different player this year like you cite, you called back Oregon and she was a great player then certainly in college and we never saw her like her final NCAA tournament go around because of COVID But like she is a significantly better player now than she was then and even then when she was, when she entered the league. And that is a credit to her hard work and you know how she's continued to grow as a player and you know she certainly, it might be cliche to say like she really does have her eyes on the prize here but like, you know there is a, there is a look when she is on the court that you know, you get the sense that she is just not going to let her team lose in a way that they did last year.
- [24:14]
Zena Keda
Absolutely. She has a confident demeanor that is just so locked in and poised. I mean I think about this particular stat in the fourth quarter. Asia Wilson, MVP of this league, best player on her team, accounted for 50% of her team's points in the fourth quarter as they're trying to mount a comeback. Sabrina Ionescu, not the MVP of this league, also not the MVP of her team. Right. Brianna Stewart could be considered that accounts for 94% of her team's points in the fourth quarter as they're trying to keep a comeback from happening from the Aces. Right. That is such a focus and an acceptance of this is my, this is my role, this is what I'm supposed to do. And being able to keep off defending Aces from getting or making this series matched up. I thought that was such an, a clear example of just her growth as a leader on this team and like an X factor on this team. Now that all being said, the aces are 02. This is panic mode. If there is a big red button in that beautiful Aces facility, somebody is pressing it loud and clear. I'm guessing somewhere underneath Becky Hammond's desk. I need her pressing that thing like she is at a bank being robbed right now. Okay. Because there's no time left. Right. This is a best of five series and they're about to come home and get the advantage of being in Michelob Ultra arena and getting that fan base and things of that sort. But they have to make some adjustments. Sabrina, what are your thoughts? How are they going to be able to bounce back from this?
- [25:55]
Courtney Williams
Yeah, it's really interesting. I mean before we look ahead too much, I wanted to just focus on that last play, the Aces had a chance to potentially tie the game. They're down two. There's 11.6 seconds left in the game. One of my favorite things about WNBA broadcasts is you get to look inside of the huddle while the coach is drawing up the play. It's a level of action that you don't really see in other, you know, leagues. I famously remember, you know, James Wade drawing up great plays to get open three pointers for the Chicago sky. And then you see it run to perfection like exactly the way he called it. Becky Hammond has become pretty famous for her out of time out plays, you know, over the course of her three year career in Las Vegas. You think about 2022 in the WNBA semifinals. That look that she drew up for Jackie Young to tie the game in game two that I believe sends it into overtime. Just historically like a lot of great looks that she's been able to design in these situations. And you know, you see her explaining to the Aces like, you know, tiff, you're going to cut through here, kp, you're going to screen for Asia. Asia, you know, like, go get Jackie and like you're just like ready, you know, to see exactly how it's going to play out. And then anticlimax of all anti climax, Chelsea Gray can't properly inbound the ball to Kelsey Plumb. And that Leo feverish length that we've talked about forces a turnover. And the Las Vegas Aces aren't even able to run a play in that situation. Like they can't even inbound the ball. And it was just a perfect like encapsulation of where things have gone wrong for the Aces this year that, you know, a Becky Hammond ato, like we can't even see that come to fruition. Like Chelsea Gray, it appears that she has this window to hit Kelsey Plumb while she's flashing in the paint and she just waits a beat too long and all of a sudden you've let Leo Fibich enter the play because she's right next to Kelsey and oh my God, like for a team like the Aces where Becky Hammond is, you know, the former Challenge assistant coach on the San Antonio spurs and prides herself on like getting these calls right now, Sandy Rondell is the one who's challenging the play and like New York gets the ball back and Ben, I'm sure there were funny anecdotes about like Sandy when she gets to use challenges in post game, but to me it just felt like, okay, so like everything for the Aces is going wrong, right? Like, not even being able to try to tie the game in this situation when, you know, you know that they'd have something pretty excellent drawn up, even if the shot goes in or not. So I just wanted to, you know, make a note to that play because, like, this is two semifinal games that we've had, you know, go down to the final possession, and both of them have ended with the defense, like, playing really well in the offense, not nearly getting off the shot that they wanted.
- [28:18]
Zena Keda
That's tough. And, you know, it was so indicative. Like, Obviously, hindsight is 20 20, but what was interesting was about that play as Becky Hammond is breaking it down or team, and she's, you know, she says if they switch, you know, get to so and so. And there's a silence. And then Chelsea Gray goes, how many timeouts do we have left?
- [28:40]
Courtney Williams
Right?
- [28:40]
Zena Keda
And that was it.
- [28:41]
Ben Pickman
Right?
- [28:41]
Zena Keda
Like, that was it. And it was just, like, looking back on that now, it's like, damn, like, that's.
- [28:47]
Courtney Williams
She told you they had two timeouts. Like, you could called one and you could have.
- [28:50]
Zena Keda
Yeah, I'm like, did you knew. Did you hear her say that they had two timeouts? Like, they have a real one in a reset, and boom, that's how that play breaks down. So, all right. I mean, yeah, they got some problems ahead of them because the length isn't going away. Leonie Feebich is not going to lose an inch or two on the way from New York to Las Vegas. So, Ben, I'm gonna start with you. Do you think the Aces will be able to pull out a win at home?
- [29:16]
Ben Pickman
A win? This is tough. I mean, I picked New York in five. They. Las Vegas certainly has not inspired any confidence. Like, I have a hard time seeing them get swept at home in Game 3. And yet, at the same time, like, I think there's no debate that through two games, New York has been a significantly better team, no matter what the scoreline says. Like, I think Las Vegas needs to play not a perfect game, but, like, a pretty close to perfect game right now to beat New York. And, you know, the thing that they keep doing is, like, they just continue to shoot themselves in the foot in different ways at different moments, right? So, like, in the first half, it was a lot of turnovers that led to points off turnovers. Then we saw, you know, they missed seven free throws. Overall, we see, like, in the first quarter, they have nine field goal. Their first nine field goals were all assisted baskets. Well, in the second quarter, they had just three assists. Like, the Offense looked completely different. Asia Wilson, for instance, she had I think six points in the first half. She came alive in the second and exploded and ended up with 24, which tied a game high. But like she was not as consistent as you would expect her to be. If you just looked at the final stat line. Like there are just all these little things that they need to clean up. And I do think they have a sense for what they do need to clean up. But, but I just wonder, like, it just seems like a lot of band aids that like need patching up. Like a lot of holes in the boat right now. That is you patch one hole, you then create another hole, right? And so, you know, do they win game three? Like they're the two time defending champs, they're going back home. You know, in theory, this is how the series should play out. So I guess I'd conservatively say yes. But if you ask me like, does this series go back to New York for a game five? I would say no. Like, you know, I think it's more likely it ends in three than it goes back to five. I guess I put it that way.
- [31:09]
Zena Keda
Yeah. No, I agree. And it's so funny. As you were speaking, that is exactly the image I got in my head was the entire Aces boat filled with players trying to plug holes as new ones kept popping up with this team. I would say I have to agree with you, Ben, in terms of maybe it's, it's New York, Liberty and 4. Sabrina, what do you think?
- [31:31]
Courtney Williams
Well, I feel very good about my liberty and 4 prediction. I do think that the Aces are going to, are going to get game three. They were right there in game two. And you add a little bit of home cooking. The fact that Sidney Coulson probably isn't going to just throw the ball to the Liberty twice and get run outs the other way. I don't think those possessions are going to happen for Las Vegas.
- [31:53]
Zena Keda
Screaming at my tv.
- [31:54]
Courtney Williams
Sabrina, Ben mentioned, you know, the seven missed free throws. I think like the fact that they were so close on the road bodes well for them. Getting one at home in front of their crowd where the shots are probably going to go in a little bit easier. You know, they'll have just a little bit more juice to want to extend the series there. But I don't expect it to go back to New York. As Ben said.
- [32:11]
Ben Pickman
I would say Xena, like one of the things coming out of New York, like I asked Sandy Brownella point blank post game, like, are you feeling any. She mentioned pre game that she was not feeling any joy having won game one. And so I asked her, like, are you feeling any joy now? And she said no. Like, she's like, we haven't done anything yet.
- [32:27]
Zena Keda
And Sabrina Nestle Kopi mentality said the same thing.
- [32:31]
Ben Pickman
Like, I do think New York very much. Like, you know, maybe they're just doing it in front of the cameras, and clearly, like, there's a video going around of Alicia Keys going into the locker room. Clearly, they were happy after the game. Like, clearly they were excited to win. Like, I'm not trying to say that they were not happy, but, like, I do think there is a recognition that they still have a lot of work to do, that they haven't done anything yet, that, you know, they haven't won a series yet, and they. That all they did was hold home court. And so, you know, I think complacency could come into play in a game three in theory. But I also think there's a recognition that, like, you know, we want to end this series sooner than later. We want the time off to rest. We want the time off to prepare, and we don't want Las Vegas to just lurk in the shadows, because I think you saw in game two what happens. Like, you know, within an instant, Las Vegas almost stole that game. And there's no reason to think, like, you know, you give game three away, suddenly game four, like, who knows what happens? And now you're back at home at game five, and, like, anything could happen, right? Like, you can see that scenario playing out very easily.
- [33:31]
Zena Keda
You do not want to open the window on the Aces and give them the opportunity to potentially climb through. I hope that, you know, as the Aces travel back to the Las Vegas, they bring their perimeter defense, a new version, a better version, and some white tees, because they got to show up to be able to get a win over the New York Liberty. And, you know, kudos to the New York Liberty for doing what they were supposed to do. Win your home games, period. Now they're gonna have the challenge of trying to win on the road. With that said, let's shift our attention to a team that did not do that initially. The Minnesota Links losing their first home game in Target center in front of their fans to the Connecticut sun, which they had done, I believe, seven straight games in a row beforehand, but they redeemed themselves, Got the win last night over the sun. 77. 70. And, man, this game was painful for me to watch, but it was fun. It was a lot of. A lot of battling. I mean, There's a possibility an unrivaled contract might be in the might be hanging in the thread here because of some of the battles. We're going to go into that in a little bit. But yeah, it was quite the game. Another game again with under 80 points from either team scored. You can see these defenses continuing to heat up. But now it's not just defense. It's a little bit of spiciness, too, a little bit of talking as well out there on the court. Sabrina, when you looked at this game, knowing that Connecticut had won the first game, I think we all predicted that Minnesota would come back and win this second game. What did you make of how Minnesota came back to win this second game? Was it a defining performance for you in their home court or do they still have some work to do?
- [35:34]
Courtney Williams
Yeah, so just real quick, before I get to that, I just want to credit our team of athletic writers real quick. You know, we've been at 10 of the 12 playoff games so far. And if you want to go to the site right now, you'll get treated to John Krasinski, who stepped in for Minnesota Lynx Connecticut sun duty last night. Just the goat of Minnesota sports writers. So make sure you check that out. And it's just very exciting that, like, you know, Ben's been to four playoff games. John was there last night, Chantel's been to a few. I've been to a couple. Like just that we've. There's no better place to watch the WNBA playoffs than with the athletic. I just want to point that out. We've got a lot of stuff going on.
- [36:08]
Sabrina Ionescu
I love it.
- [36:08]
Ben Pickman
Yes, it's a great plug, Sabrina. Great plug by you.
- [36:10]
Zena Keda
Wonderful plug. Y'all better get on the site. There's so much content to read. If you're like, okay, Xena, this is enough of your voice. I would like to read what our beautiful, bright, brilliant minds. Let me go do that. Go subscribe, folks. Thank you, Sabrina. Thank you.
- [36:22]
Courtney Williams
All right, back to game two. You know, you mentioned the stat with Las Vegas and New York. If you owe down 2. 0 in a WNBA playoff series, those teams are. 0. 18 thus far in coming back to win that series. So not, not a great sign. You know, if you lose the first two games, especially if you're going to lose the first two at home. So this was basically a must win for Minnesota. And I don't come out of it thinking any different about either of these two teams. Like, anytime these two teams step onto the court, I'm going to think of it as A coin flip because it was a three point game in game one, Minnesota shot a little bit better from the floor in game two. You know, their shooting percentage goes up from 41.5 to 45.2 in their three point percentage. You know, they made 5 of 20 in game one. They make 8 of 19 in game two. So that's three more threes. That's basically the margin of the game, you know, when they won by seven. So I'm not thinking entirely differently about either side. You know, like, Connecticut missed some more shots. Minnesota made some more shots. The flow of the game felt very similar to me. You know, like, it's funny to talk about making some more shots because collectively, these two teams missed their first 14 shots. It's like they were waiting for the ESPN2 audience to arrive from the end of Aces Liberty to come over before they started playing offensive basketball. But, yeah, I mean, Connecticut's gonna get in the passing lanes, they're gonna muck stuff up. They're gonna make things really hard on Nafisa Collier. They're gonna make Minnesota move the ball to, honestly, lesser options on offense. And on the other end, Minnesota's gonna do the exact same thing. They're gonna. They've been frustrating Bree Jones. The only player who's really gotten loose is Marina Mavery. And we'll talk about all the things Marina Mavery did in this game, but it was, you know, a defensive standoff. And I still feel if Minnesota makes a couple more threes, they probably have an advantage. If Connecticut makes a couple more threes, they have an advantage. And I hate to just reduce it to, like, this make or miss thing, but they're so evenly matched, their strengths are so congruous with one another that, like, I find it hard to find real disparities between these two teams. And that's what makes it so much fun to just watch every possession mean that much.
- [38:16]
Zena Keda
Okay, I'm so happy you said that, because that's exactly why I asked you the question. Did you see it as, like, a defining win? Because I didn't either. I literally felt like this is normal. Mucked up, like hard defense, great teams going up against each other, but nobody shined in that their one team was better than the other. Ben, did you feel that way?
- [38:37]
Ben Pickman
Yeah. And you listen to Steph White in the post game, like, yes, she's now the losing coach of game two, but the thing she reiterated time and time again was it's a series. Like, this is what you expect in a series. And, yes, that's Obviously a sports cliche and something like, you know, coaches throw out after they lose games and, you know, everything along those lines. But I think it was pretty apt in this moment that, like, they stole Game one, did Connecticut and Minnesota leveled the series and did their job to. To, you know, get Game two. And these two teams continue to just trade punches, to trade jabs, to trade trash talk. Like, you listen to Courtney Williams in the post game. You know, she was talking about how in Game one, like, Marina Mabry, like, you know, they were hitting and chatting, I think, was her line. And, like, we had to give it back to them. And, like, that was kind of the mindset in Game two, that that's kind of what she said. Right?
- [39:25]
Zena Keda
And.
- [39:25]
Ben Pickman
And, like, that is definitely true. And, you know, I like that Sabrina called out the Minnesota, like, shooting discrepancies between Game one and Game two, because you could do the exact same thing in Connecticut. And, like, just to stress, you know, Sabrina's point even further in game one, like, Connecticut shot 41.3% from the field. Game two, 36%. They made 40% on threes in game one, and they made 25% in game two. And a lot of that is because Marina Mabry, specifically, she hit six threes in Game one, and she hits two threes in Game two. Like, it's easy to reduce it all to just that. But for these two teams and how, like, they play grinding offense, like, every possession and every little moment, every run does really make a difference. And, you know, this does feel like a series that is just going to be decided because a player gets hot at a certain moment or, you know, one team has one more run in them. And the coaching staffs are just trying to, you know, come up with any little tweak that provides their players an opportunity to just, like, get a little more space, like, run a little bit more of an effective play, get three or four stops in a row in a way that they couldn't before, like, all really little things. That seems like it's setting up to be the difference as this series flips back to Connecticut.
- [40:41]
Zena Keda
Now, talking about the little things, something that's not necessarily little, but definitely is impactful, not enough to get a loss. The Connecticut sun were able to keep Nafisa Collier to nine points, and that's not little when you think about the numbers that Nafisa Collier is capable of putting up and has particularly put up in the postseason. But the Lynx were still able to pull out a win. Sabrina, talk to me about the importance of the Lynx bench in this game. And before I let you say that, quick shout out to Chantelle Jennings wasn't able to join today, but in our last conversation about this game, she mentioned Zanna Lasini coming back and being impactful for this, for this team. And she talked about the bench having an impact. So I do want to credit her for that. And then I want to talk a little bit about just how big the bench was for the Lynx.
- [41:42]
Courtney Williams
Yeah. So both teams played seven players each during game one, and we saw Veronica Burton and Olivia Nelson Dota have a little bit more of an impact than Natisha Heideman and Maisha Heinz Allen. And, you know, they both got an additional bench player with Cecchi Dan Delicini returning to the lineup and then Ty Harris also being available for Connecticut for the first time since Game 1 of the Indiana series. And you just saw like, oh, there's one more player who can potentially take a three for the Minnesota Links. Like Collier struggles mildly from the field. Absolutely dynamite on the glass. Like those five offensive rebounds. She is just diving amongst crowds of Connecticut sun players to collect these rebounds. And hitting a three off of an offensive rebound is just so fricking devastating. If you're the defense because you've done so much for 24 seconds, you think you've done your job on a possession, then all of a sudden there's an opening and there's Chechy Zanderlaceni hitting a three, or there's, you know, Bridget Carlton hitting a three after this, you know, massive scrum underneath the basket. And, you know, that was big shot that Cheshi hit during the second quarter. Aisha Hines Allen hits essentially a buzzer beater at the end of the second quarter has some big moments elsewhere throughout the game. And then, like, the Heideman Courtney Williams pairing is just making sure that Minnesota is, like, consistently disciplined on offense. Right? Like 15 turnovers, probably still too much for their, you know, liking. But that's just what's going to happen when you're playing a defense that's as active as the Connecticut Sun. So, you know, this is the kind of series that it's like, so physically grinding that I understand Collier and Alyssa Thomas each played 40 minutes, but that is absolutely not doable for everybody else. Right? Like, nobody should be wanting to play 40 minutes. You're going to need breaks. The fact that Zane Dulcini was there to help spell Caleb McBride a little bit, you know, the fact that Leticia Heideman helped Courtney Williams stay fresh and Aisha Hines Allen with Alanna Smith you know, just to have a little bit of like, a breather. Considering the stakes and the tension of all of these possessions. It's so important for them to have bodies, you know, and to ha. Go from seven to eight, I think was just a huge lift for Minnesota in this particular case.
- [43:37]
Zena Keda
I'm happy you brought up the offensive rebounds for Nafeesa Collier because, yes, even though she only had nine points, rest of her stat line, 12 rebounds, five of which were offensive, and also led her team in assistance. Kayla McBride mentioned this to Angel Gray in the post game interview. Like, she does so much on the court for us, so definitely want to give credit where it's due. And then I'm also happy you brought up the physical grind because this game, oh, if this was earlier in the season, CNN would have had full, like, complete, like, tickers dedicated to the physicality of this game. People being targeted, people being bumped, people getting up ready to fight. This was an amazing game for us to see Dijonay being held back by Marina Mabry. Did we know this would happen this season, folks? Did we think it would ever happen in the WNBA atmosphere? No, but this is where we're at all right? People are fighting for their ground out there on the court, and it was very physical. Ben, when you think about this series continuing on, do you think it's gonna get worse? Because I feel like it's gonna get worse.
- [44:50]
Ben Pickman
I mean, worse in that I don't expect much to change. Like, I think we'll have to see how it's refereed going forward. But I certainly expect, I expect the chirping to continue on throughout the rest of the series, if that is the question. Xena, I mean, I like that you teed up your last question to Sabrina by talking about things that were little and impactful. And I thought, you know, is she talking about Courtney Williams, like the 5, 8 guard who, you know, obviously was not the biggest player on the court, but, you know, continues to emphasize that she is a dog and like, she was that in game too, right? Like, you want to talk about someone with. With like, just talks her, you know, talks her talk and her 17 points in Game 2, like, that really was the difference. And she is someone who, like, feeds off that energy. She's going back to Connecticut, a team that she has played for. She's played for them in the finals. Like, there's just that kind of. She knows the crowd. She'll embrace being a character in this series fully. Marina Rabery certainly, like, you know, unabashedly herself and like, Authentically herself Carrington. Just like a lot of people who just like, have a confidence of who they are and play their games and, you know, I don't think anyone is gonna throw them off. So, you know, I'm hoping that, like, we don't get any fireworks or real like, physical theatrics. I don't think anyone wants to see anything like that. But, like, will we keep the chippiness throughout the rest of the series? It's hard to imagine that it's gonna stop. I mean, unless, like, you know, unless players are getting double text in minute one of the game and we have to turn the bench. But, like, other than that, I think so.
- [46:17]
Courtney Williams
I just want to highlight the second quarter run that Marina Mabry had. Real quick. She drops Maisha Heinz Allen on the three pointer, talks some shit to her on the way down. Then she draws an offensive foul on Bridget Carlton, gets a little to her, goes for a jump ball with an FISA Collier and a fees of Collier basically throws her off of her. And like Maisha Hines Allen and at have a little words after that. Everybody has to get separated. Apparently. Like, that dates back to, you know, Huconn, Notre Dame. So there's, you know, they're in the same draft class. Like, that's obviously been going on for quite a few years from when they played together in college. And then we also get Kayla McBride and my marina Mabry getting a little like, shoulder check as Kayla's coming back from, you know, hitting a fast break layup after stealing the ball from Marina. Those are two Notre Dame players. So, like, not like there should be any historical enmity between them. But again, this all happens in the second quarter. Like, this is just Marina going from one Lynx to the next. And that's not even mentioning the little, you know, jawing she gets into with Courtney Williams later in the second half, which Courtney was just like, don't worry, like, we're gonna be fine after the series is over. Like, in the moment, I just had to tell her that she couldn't guard me. Right, Which I just love the respect between the two teams. But also, like, while we're on the court, we're gonna have a good time doing it.
- [47:28]
Zena Keda
Hey, this is exactly what WNBA fans want. That competitiveness. As Ben said, showing off that dog in them. Like, these women are competitors. I love that. Monica McNutt said during the game yesterday, this is why you cry at the end of these things, because there's so much energy pent up when you finally win. It's just. It's just sitting there like, these women want to win the way they're going down to the floor. I mean, there were so many. You just did a wonderful recap, Sabrina, of all of these little different interactions. My personal favorite, Maisha Hines Allen dropping Dewana Bonner to the ground and then flexing in front of her partner, Alyssa Thomas. I was like, oh, these are fighting words, people. Of course, as Ben mentioned, we don't want actual fights, but trust me, this is popcorn entertainment. I loved it. I absolutely loved it.
- [48:23]
Ben Pickman
Can I just throw out one more honorable mention kind of best moment, best quote of the night that I think is getting a little under the radar, all things considered. But post game, Courtney Williams and Alanna Smith, they did their press conference together, and they were talking about their relationship at one point, and Courtney Williams used the phrase she was reflecting on, like, all that they, like her and Smith had been through together. And she goes, we were in the trenches. And she pauses. Chicago and she stops again. And it's like this unbelievable line that, like, you know, that they have made it out of their times, their service on the Chicago sky where they played together last year. It's not gonna get the play that the Mabry clip and the Carrington moments and. And the other things that you both talked about are gonna get. But for me, when I heard that post game, I think I laughed there as much as anything. And they're both dying on the podium that they survived Chicago, and here they are in the semifinals. To tell the story. An amazing moment by Courtney Williams, maybe my favorite of the night.
- [49:21]
Zena Keda
I adore you for bringing that up because when I tell you Courtney Williams acting like she literally just got out of a war zone, like, in the trenches with Chicago. Now, the worst thing, I do hate that Chicago has this, like, Chiraq thing to it to their. In reference to their inner city and the crime in their city and parts of their city. But, like, that's the first thing I thought of when she said we were in the trenches. I was like, not ish Iraq. Not ish Iraq. What are we talking about right now? But that gives you a little bit of context as to the situations that some players have alluded to in Chicago. Now, on that note, separate from all of this, it was beautiful to see Barclays center give respect and flowers to Teresa Weatherspoon. She cried. I teared up as well. It was beautiful. Let's get back to Minnesota and Connecticut now. I need to know they're about to go back to Uncasville, which. Thank you to chantelle Jennings letting us know the village of Uncasville. This is about to be a 11 series going back home to the Connecticut Sun. I feel as if there is such, let's use the word Sabrina just used enmity now, even more so after this game too, between these two teams. And I feel like the Connecticut sun are going to handle business at home. But I also feel like the Links just got a boost, that they just beat the Connecticut sun on their home court for the first time in like seven or eight games. With Nafisa Collier only scoring nine points, they must feel really good about their ability to to beat this team even when they're not at their best. So I'm going to say I genuinely don't know what's about to happen in Connecticut. And I'm a turn to y'all. Ben, I'll start with you. What do you think is about to happen when the sun and the Lynx meet up in Connecticut?
- [51:26]
Ben Pickman
Yeah, one. I mean, I'll be in Uncasville. So excited to be in the beautiful village, as you're alluding to. I guess as I answer this question, I want to throw Sabrina a question. Where is Bree Jones? Like, you know, an All Star, a borderline Olympian. You know, she played 20 minutes or fewer in the regular season. Just three times. Once at their season opener and once in their last game. She's played 20 minutes or fewer three times in this postseason. I know one time she kind of went down with a shoulder injury and, you know, that seemed to take her out. But, you know, you go up and down this Connecticut box score, you see Dejuana Bonner, 34 minutes, Alyssa Thomas, 40 minutes, Dijonay Carrington, 3130, Marina Mabry, 3801. Bree Jones third, 1336. Like, Bree Jones took three shots. She had two rebounds, two turnovers. I gotta imagine they gotta get her more involved here. Like, I mean, I understand you want to play smaller, maybe a little bit, and you're getting Veronica Burton some more run. We'll see if Ty Harris plays more, you know, in game three. Coming off that injury, Olivia Nelson Adono did play them 14 minutes, but like, I feel like that's going to be important as this series flips. Am I crazy? Am I missing something also, Sabrina?
- [52:35]
Courtney Williams
Well, I think Atlantis went to a really good post defender, and that's not exactly a fantastic one on one matchup for Bree Jones to just go at her in the paint as she has, you know, against other centers throughout the league. I think they've discovered that not Only in this series, but also over the course of the regular season. You think about their last regular season matchup, the epic game where Bridget Carlton hits the 30 foot three pointer for the win. Connecticut closes that game going small. And that's one of the things that getting Marina Raber has really unlocked is she is somebody who is small forward size who enables Connecticut to play DB and at the 4 and the 5 and you know, get a little bit switchier, get a little bit like more speed on the perimeter. And I think they found that very useful in this particular battle against Minnesota because Minnesota moves the ball so well and they're just pinging it all across the court. And Bree Jones, for all of her gifts, like, is not a great defender in space. And so just having the ability to downsize a little bit, I think has been really helpful for Connecticut. It was helpful against Indiana too, but they've, you know, been using it since the regular season against Minnesota. And I do think that, you know, at some point Bree Jones probably will have an impact. But I understand what Steph White has been doing, especially because she's been getting this level of production out of Marina Mabry.
- [53:44]
Ben Pickman
I guess I just feel like, like you play one way all season long and you play a certain style and you try not to let your opponent dictate how you are going to play. And I hear what you're saying about Mabry, like having a big impact and, you know, providing them with some more flexibility. But I just feel like as it flips back, like she's got to have a moment or she's got to do more than she did in game two because she is one of their most productive and most efficient players. And so the fact that she is yet to have a game of that magnitude in this moment, like, definitely gives me some pause, I guess. Xena, back to your question. Like, I think they're going to split in Connecticut. Like, I think I do too.
- [54:21]
Zena Keda
I actually do too. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry.
- [54:24]
Ben Pickman
If you're asking me to make a game pick, like, I think Connecticut is going to win game three. I think they'll come home. I think they'll, you know, feel the energy of being back home. I think, you know, Jones might play a little better. I think Mabry will shoot a little better, you know, at home and they'll get that game. And then game four, like, Nifty Zakalier could go score 35 points and level the series and send it back to Minneapolis. Like, I don't think, you know, this one is going to end In Connecticut. You know, I think it will end up going five games. As, you know, I predicted at the beginning of the series. I know Sabrina plugged her own prediction, but, you know, I'll plug mine there, too.
- [54:57]
Zena Keda
There you go. I'm in the same boat. I think this series is going to be so 50, 50 in all ways. They're gonna split in Minnesota. They're gonna. They already did. They're gonna split in Connecticut, and then even the last game back in Minnesota is gonna be split that way. Like, it's gonna be to the buzzer, type of. I think this is gonna be the most evenly split series, which is so fun. Like, in one series with the Las Vegas Aces, we in the New York Liberty, we get the rematch of the finals last year, we get a really well evenly teamed or evenly matched up series between the sun and the links. Like, this is a lot of fun on both ends, but this one's causing me the most anxiety of the two series. Sabrina, what are your thoughts?
- [55:41]
Courtney Williams
I mean, I said before, like, at the start of every game, I just flip a coin and, like, that's who I think is going to win the game. I don't really have much beyond that. Their first game of the season was decided by one point in overtime. Their second one was decided by five. Their third one was decided by two, with the lead changing, like, four times in the final minute. Game one of the series was decided by three, and this one being seven was kind of, like, miraculous. There was that much separation between the two teams. So I don't think we have any indication of who is better in this series. I think the easiest thing to pick is that it's going to go five games. So you know what? I'm just going to abstain today. Like, I don't know what's going to happen in game three. I'm looking forward to it. And we'll, you know, regroup and see what happens before game four.
- [56:20]
Ben Pickman
Sabrina, it's. It seems like I have to text you on Friday night when you flip that coin before the game as to, you know, what side it lands on and then. And then make the prediction off that or maybe tweet that out so people could go to Vegas and make. Make a bet off that.
- [56:31]
Zena Keda
Ben, I'm holding you to that. I would actually love to announce that on the next show because it'd be cool to see if this coin flip worked. I'm sure some sports bettors would love to know if that is actually working out. Sabrina's coin flip. That's going to be a new segment on the pod. Okay, well, this is awesome. Amazing games. I am grateful to these four teams for keeping it interesting for all of us and giving us stuff to talk about because these games, the first game had me, I think I, I like, my boyfriend had to tell me, like, eat dinner, like you need to eat, like, I was like on the couch glued. And the second game had me up as well. So I am very excited to see what happens when this locations and the settings change for these upcoming games. And let's just make sure you guys are set for these games on Friday, 4:30pm PT, 7:30pm PT ET. Minnesota is going to take on Connecticut. Ben, you will be at that game. Very exciting. And then Sabrina will be taking on New York, Liberty and Las Vegas. That will be the second game. 6:30pm PT, 9:30pm ET. Okay, let's see what happens. Sabrina's coin flip will be coming up very soon, folks. All right, guys, appreciate your ear for today as always. Hit that subscribe button on this pod. You want a full breakdown like we just did or go to the site, folks. There is so much content, good content on the site. The athletic are like the superheroes all coming together to ensure that you guys are all set for the WNBA finals and WNBA semifinals. I'm just excited for all this playoff coverage for Ben, for Sabrina. I'm Zena Ka thanking you for your ear and encouraging you. Keep listening, keep watching, keep learning and keep loving the game. That's the only way we're going to keep growing it until next time.
- [58:31]
Courtney Williams
As we head into the playoffs.
- [58:33]
Ben Pickman
It's safe to assume there will be.
- [58:35]
Sabrina Ionescu
A few calls made by the refs.
- [58:36]
Ben Pickman
That will be hard to accept.
- [58:37]
Courtney Williams
But you know what isn't hard to accept?
- [58:40]
Sabrina Ionescu
Discover.
- [58:41]
Ben Pickman
Believe it or not, Discover is accepted at 99% of places that take credit cards nationwide. You heard that right, 99%.
- [58:49]
Courtney Williams
So make a good call for your.
- [58:51]
Sabrina Ionescu
Wallet and get Discover.
- [58:52]
Courtney Williams
Based on the February 2024 Nielsen report.
- [58:54]
Sabrina Ionescu
Learn more at discover.com credit card G'day America.
- [58:58]
Courtney Williams
It's Tony and Ryan from the Tony.
- [58:59]
Shopify Advertiser
And Ryan podcast from Down Under.
- [59:01]
Sabrina Ionescu
Today we want to talk to you.
- [59:02]
Wayfair Advertiser
About Boost Mobile, the newest 5G network in the country.
- [59:05]
Courtney Williams
These guys are no longer the prepaid wireless company you might remember. They've invested billions into building their own.
- [59:12]
Zena Keda
5G towers across America, transforming the carrier.
- [59:15]
Courtney Williams
Into America's fourth major network alongside the other big dogs.
- [59:20]
Ben Pickman
Yep, they're challenging the competitors by working.
- [59:22]
Wayfair Advertiser
Harder and and smarter.
- [59:24]
Ben Pickman
Like this amazing new network, they've literally built the Boost Mobile network, together with.
- [59:29]
Zena Keda
Their roaming partners covers 99 of the.
- [59:32]
Courtney Williams
US population, but 5G speeds not available in all areas.
- [59:35]
Wayfair Advertiser
Yep, they have a blazing fast Internet.
- [59:37]
Ben Pickman
And plans for all the latest devices.
- [59:40]
Wayfair Advertiser
Visit your nearest Boost mobile store or.
- [59:42]
Ben Pickman
Find them online@boostmobile.com this podcast is brought.
- [59:46]
Alyssa Thomas
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