C (2:58)

You care about the. Right. Yeah.

A (3:00)

Kate Lindsey. So Kate is the host of the Slate podcast. I C Y M I. She writes the embedded newsletter and she happens to be the sister of Noah's wife. So she's a sister in law of the pod.

B (3:13)

That's true.

C (3:14)

Yeah. I've spent many Christmas mornings with Noah.

A (3:17)

Exactly. And you also sat in with us on episod episode 27 because you wanted to find out why adults can't order off the kids menu.

C (3:28)

Yeah.

A (3:29)

One of our most popular, if not our most popular episodes.

C (3:31)

Yeah. Wow, that's crazy.

B (3:32)

Yeah, it's not crazy. Yeah.

C (3:35)

Well, I guess I'm just happy that people have the same question.

A (3:39)

Clearly, we're still getting emails about it. So, Kate, we brought you on today cause we're tackling the question about our outdoor cats. Happier than indoor cats. When we went through our roster of friends and you were at the top of the list because you love cats.

C (3:58)

I love cats. Every kind of cat. Yeah.

A (4:03)

You own cats?

C (4:04)

I own cats. I have two partner and Ruby. They were not by me, but they were found in a parking lot. So in many ways they. They are on both sides of this. But yes, they are. They are indoor cats.

A (4:18)

Noah, what is your experience with cats? Did you grow up with cats?

B (4:21)

No. Never owned a cat. Have really not spent much time around cats.

A (4:25)

Okay.

B (4:26)

Just kind of like I've checked in on some cat sitting duties once in a while, that sort of thing. I don't have any strong feelings really either way about cats or how they live.

C (4:35)

Maybe.

A (4:36)

Maybe you're a great neutral person to.

B (4:38)

Have during a. Yeah, I'll weigh in where I can. But yeah, I've always had. I had dogs growing up. Have a dog now.

A (4:43)

I did have a cat growing up, but I was talking to my mom about this. Like, why did you guys have a cat? Cause they're not really. I think my mom likes cats more than my dad did. But they always had cats growing up because living in the city and, you know, and apartment buildings, mice are always an issue.

C (5:01)

Yeah.

A (5:01)

So they were like, growing up, like, we always had cats as like, pest control.

C (5:06)

Yeah, I know. Honestly, people should be thanking us. Pet owners if we're in your building, or cat owners specifically, because it's a combo of they'll attack the mice. But I also think the mice stay away from.

A (5:17)

Yeah, man. It's a warning.

C (5:19)

Yeah.

A (5:25)

I Actually, the other day, came by to spend some time with her cats. Hey, how are you? I'm good.

D (5:35)

Yeah.

A (5:36)

But they're both. They're both black.

C (5:39)

Yeah, they. They look everyone's. I, I now I'm like, oh, they look so different. But to. They. They look exactly the same. They're brother and sister.

A (5:47)

Okay, so how did you get them?

C (5:50)

So it was Brooklyn animal action. And. But funnily, how. I. Not that I never didn't have, like, the stigma against black cats, but I wouldn't say I was like, oh, I need a black cat. But then we were cat sitting for some friends who had two black cats while they were on vacation for two weeks, and I just, like, fell in love with them. And they were similarly like brother and sister. And like, I would probably two days after they came back and got their cats back, I saw these kitten black cat siblings, and I was. I asked Tyler, my husband, I was like, is it weird if we just immediately get their. Basically their cats? We just cat sit. But we did it. And now we still see them around. Like, Tyler and them are still close friends, and we're always like, you're the reason we have our cats. Yes. And then we just. They were about six months when we adopted them, and they were and still continue to be very bad. They. Yeah, they love to eat human food, but they're also. They're so sweet. I mean, Ruby's sweet too, but she's a bit more of, like, a spicy girl. But they both. They're very, like, food motivated, and they're very loving. But, yeah, this is.

A (6:58)

Oh, get some legs.

D (7:00)

Get some licks.

C (7:02)

Do it to the microphone, partner. Oh, they love. Oh, you want to get that maybe.

A (7:06)

Oh, yeah, Some scratching of the couch.

C (7:10)

I don't know. He's gonna stop. He's gonna be like, no, I don't do that. This is another thing.

A (7:13)

Yeah, I don't do that.

C (7:15)

Yeah, I know.

A (7:18)

So have you ever taken him outside?

C (7:21)

No. We are con, because. So they were found in a parking lot at a BJ's in Bensonhurst, and. Yeah. And. And they love human food and, like, trash. And so we just. I think because they were, like, raised on that initially, and our whole thing is like, we know they love us. We know they love being home, but if they were given, we think we'd be chopped liver immediately if they could, like, go back to the streets and eat garbage.

A (7:53)

So, as the person who has the most experience with cats of this roundtable, what are your thoughts? Do you think that outdoor cats are happier than indoor cats.

C (8:07)

So despite my cats being indoor cats, I have grown up with, when I lived in the uk, I will say, like, there specifically, it seems like almost, I would say, nearly unheard of to have only an indoor cat. And so when we were growing up in England, we had, like, our American cats with us. They had to be quarantined for, like, three to six months. That's a side thing, but that's crazy. It was crazy. So no real ordeal to move them there. But they. Then there became indoor, outdoor. So they were not exclusively hybrids. Yeah, they were hybrids. They were hybrids. Good for the environment. And I mean, It's hard to say, because when they are outdoor cats, you don't see them. And so it's like. So that would suggest they're enjoying it. And cats are such creatures of routine that we would learn to expect them back at the door around a certain time, and they'd be like, let me back in. But it would be kind of like, literally, like, they'd be going off to the office and then coming back. And so I'm. I. My. My inclination was to be like, well, cats who have an outdoor cat personality like it. But I don't know if that just is because basically every cat I've had, had that's indoor only, seems really content to be indoor only. But every outdoor cat I know, like my parents, neighbors, now have barn cats that are exclusively outdoor. They are plump and busy and seem to be having a great time. And so I wonder if it's like a nature versus nurture thing, except it might all be nurture. But the saying that I can think of, cats, I've had, that if I put them outside, it would be like a hate crime.

A (9:58)

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, they would be dead instantly.

C (10:01)

Yeah. No survival incident.

A (10:02)

Yeah, yeah.

B (10:03)

I mean, it's probably a lot like people. It's like, some people like to camp.

A (10:06)

Yeah.

B (10:07)

Some people don't. What about. Have you ever. Or has anyone, you know, like, taking their cats out on leashes?

C (10:13)

Yes. My friend Hannah Watsky, full name, government, legal government. She has a cat named Circe, and she would bring Cersei to the park in a stroller. Then she had a leash, and we would sit there with her on the leash. But, like, dogs, obviously, dogs like being outside, but they can also settle outside. I also think maybe because it was such a novelty for Cersei, like, she just would not. Like, she just wanted to be everywhere. Ye. And she really would make a beeline for trees and try to get up in the tree. And so like, sometimes the leash would be, like, vertical because she'd be, like, wanting to allow Cersei to do all her little things. But.

A (10:52)

But I also wanted.

C (10:53)

But Cersei wanted to be up in the tree.

B (10:56)

I mean, I guess it's similar to how I think I felt about dogs, where I. I think a hybrid sounds good. I know that's not the strong, strong take here.

A (11:03)

Not what I wanted from you, but.

B (11:05)

Well, for that.

A (11:06)

You think best case. Okay, for that sake, I'll allow it.

B (11:09)

I guess I'll go outdoor, then.

D (11:10)

Okay.

B (11:10)

If I'm. If I have to lean one way.

A (11:12)

If you want to make a decision.

B (11:15)

If I'm a cat.

A (11:16)

If your cat.

B (11:17)

Because I think outdoor basically implies, you know, hopefully they get to go inside sometimes. But, yeah, if. Then it's like, you know, Kate's giving them a lease or something, and it's like, you need to decide if you're going to be indoor.

A (11:28)

Outdoor.

B (11:29)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (11:29)

You got to sign a lease.

B (11:30)

I think these cats, it sounds like, would probably whether it might not be there in their best interest.

A (11:35)

Well, they were outside before.

C (11:36)

I know that's the thing. And they have.

B (11:37)

They probably didn't like it in the parking lot.

C (11:39)

I think it's so, like. I think against, like, right in my heart in. In a city, I think I can. I know better than them, and I'm like, it's better in here. If we were in the country, I think they would be so much happier prancing around in little fields and hunting mice. But in the city, you can just hunt, like, garbage for the most part, which they do like. But it's not. Not good for them.

D (12:08)

Yeah.

A (12:08)

And a lot more dangerous.

C (12:09)

Right.

D (12:10)

There's just.

C (12:10)

And like. Like RA poison, all that stuff. Yeah.

A (12:13)

It would get even. Just the rats, Right?

C (12:15)

Just the rats.

A (12:15)

These rats are big. Yeah, that's true.

C (12:17)

Yeah. No, that would be too scary, too, for me.

A (12:20)

All right, so you're so.

B (12:21)

Yeah. I'll say outdoor, though.

A (12:23)

Outdoor. Kate, you're saying indoor.

C (12:25)

Indoor.

A (12:27)

I'm gonna go with outdoor.

C (12:28)

I'm saying indoor just. Cause I'm like.

A (12:30)

You have.

C (12:31)

I'm being like. But kind of like a Munchausen situation where I'm like, you. Like being in here with you.

A (12:37)

This is great, right?

C (12:37)

Yeah.

A (12:38)

I'm doing the best thing.

B (12:38)

Yeah, that's exactly how I felt about the dog's question.

D (12:41)

So.

A (12:42)

All right, so we're going to take a little break, and when we get back, we're going to hear from a cat scientist who's going to tell Us. Which cats are happier, outdoor cats or indoor cats? All right, we are back. So before the break, we were debating whether or not outdoor cats are happier than indoor cats. So I called up a leading expert in the field.

D (13:17)

Hi, I'm Dr. Michael Delgado. I'm a cat behavior expert. I'm a behavior consultant, and I'm also a scientist.

A (13:23)

All right, so, Dr. Michael. It's pretty cool. I sent y' all a photo.

C (13:29)

I was gonna say, you better give the visual.

A (13:30)

Yes. So, you know, we do. We record these interviews with video as well. So she shows up in her video window. She's wearing a cat shir. You know, she showed up. She showed up.

B (13:42)

She got her uniform.

A (13:43)

Her cat is on, like, a cat tree behind her, like, hanging out basically on her shoulder. She's tatted up. I was like, this is the perfect person to talk to about this, and not just because she's a scientist and, you know, like, she couldn't know nothing about cats, but showing up with that fit. I was like, okay. She's about her business. She also has a book called Play with youh Cat that delves into understanding your cat's wants and needs to give them a better, healthier life. So we're gonna break this conversation down into a few chapters. So let's start with chapter one. Domesticated. There's a question mark there.

C (14:20)

Ooh.

B (14:20)

Okay.

D (14:25)

We think cats were domesticated approximately 10,000 years ago, but that exact date is always very fuzzy. Based on genetic data, archaeological data, and.

A (14:35)

Just for reference, dogs were believed to be domesticated between 14 and 20,000 years ago.

C (14:41)

Longer.

A (14:42)

Yeah. So cats were domesticated a few thousand years later.

D (14:45)

What we see is that in the Fertile Crescent, where humans were settling, storing food, that there is evidence that cats came into people's lives, became part of their lives. Right. So we see art depicting cats. We see archaeological evidence of cats coexisting with humans. But, you know, the question of, like, are cats truly domesticated? Really depends on how you think about domestication. And so I prefer to say they're semi domesticated. Certainly, we have coexisted with them. But domestication is often described as, like, a process we do to, like, plants and animals, to make them usable by humans. Right. And that includes dogs. But, you know, we want plants to create more corn or more wheat. We want chickens to produce more meat. We want dogs to do specific jobs for us, like herding or protecting our property or helping us hunt. And we haven't really done that with cats. So what we believe happened is that humans stored grains, which Attracted rodents, which attracted cats. So you could say, like, oh, well, obviously humans needed cats to protect their food from all of those rodents. But the reality is that humans already had dogs and weasels to do pest control for us. So cats are like an added bonus. But really, what's more likely that happened is, like, okay, they help us a little bit. They're cute. Some of them are friendly. The friendlier ones, like, oh, I'll toss them a little bit of my food. Those cats that are friendlier are more able to take advantage of human kindness and reproduce because they're more likely to survive. So then their offspring are also a little more friendly, and then their offspring are a little more friendly to people. And now we have cats in our beds and, you know, behind us while we're working and on our computer laptops. So they're. They've kind of infiltrated. But it's not a. It's not considered like a mutually beneficial relationship, like domestication of other species. In fact, cats probably benefited a little bit more than humans because, again, we already had pest control.

C (16:48)

As she was talking, I was like, right, so cats are like the most unemployed animals because there's no, you know, there's no reason they don't do anything. But then as she was talking, I was like, oh, cats are using us. Like, at least with the way she described it, I basically realized in the moment that we were getting played, because I was like, oh, they don't do anything for us. Yeah, it's just. Cause they're cute. And then when she stopped, I was like, oh, but they can use us for warmth and shelter and food.

A (17:12)

I guess in a city, you know, pest control is still a thing, right?

B (17:17)

Yeah, definitely.

C (17:18)

Yeah.

A (17:18)

And outside, too, with the.

B (17:20)

The barn cats.

D (17:20)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

A (17:21)

Barn cats are definitely a thing. But, yeah, in terms of when they were starting to be domesticated, it's like, well, we don't really need you guys here. We kind of got this taken care of. They're like, I want to hang out. There's food here.

B (17:32)

It's kind of nice that it's not for the purely utilitarian reason.

D (17:35)

Yeah, yeah.

B (17:35)

Just like, maybe they're just nice to have around. Yeah, you can have the weasel do it. But yeah, the cat comes, it's not so bad.

C (17:41)

Cat sits on your lap. Although I'd welcome a weasel on my lap.

B (17:44)

You should try getting a weasel.

C (17:48)

Do indoor or outdoor weasels. Are they happier?

A (17:52)

So another thing Dr. Michael pointed out is that we have a larger variety of dogs than we have cats. Right? There's, I think, nearly like 350 to 400. It's like disputed dog breeds, and there's only like 40 cat breeds.

B (18:09)

Yeah. Oh, wow.

A (18:10)

And some of that, she says, is because cats get to choose who they have sex with.

D (18:19)

Although we have certainly created breeds of cats specifically based on physical features, like the coloration and the face shape of the Siamese or the Persian. You're not going to see those extremes like we do in dogs. And some of that is. Is due to, I think, just less controlled breeding. So we know that about 96% of cats in the world choose their own sexual partners. So they have a lot of freedom compared to dogs. And as a result, people also have many fewer purebred cats than purebred dogs. And also we just see less extreme appearances. So you could have, you know, probably the biggest extremes would be like a Maine coon cat, which is like, you know, known to be like £20.

A (18:59)

Yeah.

D (18:59)

And then you have like a Singapura, which are more like 7 to 8 pounds. Right. So that's kind of the range of cat diversity as far as what they look like. And again, with the personality, there's been. And behavior, there's been less selection.

C (19:17)

What do we mean by choosing? I guess, are we saying that, like, dogs. There's more of an industry in breeding dogs, and so they could. Theoretically, it's not their choice. We're getting into some dicey ethics here in terms of consent to these animals.

A (19:33)

Yeah. I don't know if the lady cats are consenting to.

C (19:37)

Yeah. Oh, yeah, I know. Yeah.

A (19:38)

But they're going out. Like, cats are breeding just out in.

C (19:41)

The wild out of the love of the game.

D (19:43)

Yes.

B (19:44)

What type of. What type of cats are yours?

C (19:46)

They are. So it's always hard when they're rescued because I think, like, as we just sort of learned. And it's true. I think there's a lot of a mutt situation. But they're. They're. They're said to be Bombay, which is just off, which is a type of black cat. But I doubt they are purebred Bombay. And I have. If you haven't, don't think that, because I follow it's Brooklyn Animal Action, and I follow them on Instagram. And one time they posted a cat that was older that looked so much like my cats, which I know is crazy, cause they're black cats. But it was the eyes specifically and the type of fur that I did email them going, is this my cat's mom? And I was. I was not. They did not reply they left her.

B (20:25)

On the way to probably the hundreds of emails.

C (20:29)

Yeah, Tyler makes fun of me because I'm just like, hey, Link, is this my cat's mom?

B (20:36)

What are you gonna do about it?

C (20:37)

Yeah, I know. I'm like, I just wanna thank her for her work.

A (20:42)

Chapter two, the Senses. So going through your book, you kind of start talking about the five, or let's say six senses for you. If we bring in balance there, sure. Of cats. So I wanted to sort of go through those one by one. Can we start with their sort of large eyes and their vision?

D (21:07)

Sure. We always want to start with vision because we are very visual. Right. And so as we'll discuss, for cats, it's not nearly as important as we would like to think it is, but certainly, you know, every part of the body of the cat has evolved to help them be a more efficient predator. So they do have those forward facing eyes. They're very large, gives them a broad kind of range of view so they can detect prey. But their close up vision is actually pretty terrible. So if you're cuddling your cat, you look fuzzy. If you're a bird, you know, 10, 15ft away, your cat's like laser focused. The other thing is that cats have very, very well adapted eyes for dark conditions.

C (21:50)

Right.

D (21:51)

So when it's dawn or dusk, they have extra rods in their eyes. So there's two kinds of cells in our eyes that help with light and color. So rods are more about light and cones are more about color. So we have great color vision. So we have a lot of cones in our eyes where cats have very few. So they're really good at amplifying available light when it's kind of dark outside, you know, dusk, dawn, when their birds and mice are getting active. But their color vision is very blah. So, you know, people like to buy, you know, I think they like to buy cat and dog toys that are brightly colored and yeah, cute and like look like a strawberry or whatever. But they really don't see red, green very well. They're more in the yellow, blue end of the spectrum. So those colors are going to look less drab to them. But like a red toy is probably gonna look pretty gray.

A (22:45)

Their eyes are pretty specialized, so they pick up on a lot of like horizontal movement.

C (22:49)

Interesting.

A (22:50)

So imaginal mouse running left to right. Yeah, they're gonna be really attuned to that.

C (22:58)

I do, I agree. Well, I'm like, I'm like, I agree.

B (23:01)

I trust the cats.

C (23:02)

I agree with this. Well, because if I like, my cats are they love treats. But I have noticed that I'll like, if I drop, if I have it in my hand or like drop it in front of them, they like, they're kind of like taking their best guess. Yeah.

A (23:13)

Where it's at to get the treat.

C (23:14)

But sometimes I'll be like, are you stupid? Like, I'm like, right in front of you. And now that does shed some, some light on it. No pun. That's not a pun.

A (23:23)

Yeah. So, you know, when we think of a sense of smell, we often think of dogs. But turns out cats are really social smellers.

D (23:33)

It's probably the most important sense of smell for social communication and how they feel about their environment, not as important for hunting. So they're not, they're not like a bloodhound who's gonna like follow a trail of a mouse. They really are looking for a mouse. Mouse in the environment or listening for sounds that would say, hey, there's a mouse here. But when it comes to their sense of smell, they do have an excellent sense of smell. Not quite as sensitive as dogs, but certainly much better than ours. And they also have kind of what we call a secondary sense of smell, which is, allows them to detect pheromones. So pheromones are species specific chemicals that animals use to communicate with other members of their species. So we can't sniff our cat's pheromones. Right. And dogs, same thing. Like, they can deposit pheromones. So cats have several scent glands on their body that deposit both a scent and a pheromone. So like, if you've ever seen a cat, like rubbing their cheeks on something or scratching something or even urine spraying, those are all ways that they can communicate with other, other cats. The message may be, I'm ready to mate. It could be, hey, this is my territory, like, bug off. It could be just, I live here and I was here recently. So another cat can come up and detect those pheromones with a specialized, like, second nose, as we call it. It's like a, it's a little spot in the roof of their mouth. And so you might see a cat making a very funny little grimace type face where they just open their mouth a little bit and so they're sucking in air and moisture that activates this organ, which is called the Jacobson's organ or the vomeronasal organ. And that's more detail than probably people need. But what you need to know is that they kind of have this whole secret world of scent that they again, learn mostly about other cats. So if you live in a house with multiple cats or your cat goes outside, you might not see them go and sniff an area that another cat has been, and they'll kind of make this little face. And so they're getting information. How recently was this cat here? Is this cat sexually intact or neutered? Is this cat stressed? Like, what's their emotional state? These are the kinds of messages we believe that cats receive from pheromones from other individuals. And they also probably can smell their own pheromones that they deposited and go back and say, like, oh, yeah, this smells like me. I live here. This is mine. So there's a certain amount of comfort and security that can be achieved from these messages, but it's definitely like, I think for us, it's just a whole world we can't really tap into. And so, you know, people get confused. This is a common scenario. You live with more than one cat. One cat goes to the vet. At the vet, they get handled by different people. Maybe those people had hand sanitizer on. Maybe the cat got cleaned up with alcohol to, like, you know, take a blood sample or something. The cat comes home, and the cat who did not go to the vet flips out, like, hissing, growling, like, does not recognize the other cat. And so people are like, have a very hard time with it. It's Sammy. Why don't you know Sammy, right? And the cat's like, no, Sammy does not smell. Right. Sammy smells not like Sammy. So it'd be kind of like if you, you know, have partner or friend who showed up at your house looking completely different.

A (27:01)

Yeah, I got, like, a huge makeover.

D (27:03)

And they're like, no, it's me, Joe. And you're like, no, Joe doesn't. Joe is, like, 5 foot 8, not 6 foot 4, and Joe has blonde hair. And, you know, so you'd be like, no. Like, what is going on? And so that's. That can happen to cats. They're so focused on the scent for this social information that can really cause stress and problems for them sometimes. Some cats seem to be more sensitive than others, too, so. So there's a lot of kind of quirky, weird things about cats that, you know, are really hard for us to relate to.

C (27:35)

The face they. I know exactly the face when they're. I didn't realize what they were doing was basically smelling through their mouth, but I knew that face because often it's the face cats make when they smell their own piss.

A (27:46)

Oh.

C (27:47)

And so it's a. If you see your cat making that Face. Luckily, my cats have not, you know, knock on wood, been like this. But my immediate thing is, like, where in the house did you kiss? Because, like, why are you smelling it? But they also did it when they smelled Tyler's foot, my husband, and that's been giving us a lot of jokes.

B (28:07)

And he pees on his foot.

C (28:08)

I know. Well, like, what I. Now I know it's registering a smell, but it just. It does look like they've smelled something they don't like. And so it's really funny for a cat to, like, sniff a foot and then be like, oh, Jesus, that's cool stuff.

B (28:19)

Yeah.

A (28:20)

All right, next we're going to talk about taste. I told her that your cats basically eat. Yes, anything.

D (28:28)

So we know that they have specialized taste receptors for meat. So they're. They're very much an obligate carnivore, so they really should be eating a primarily meat diet that's made for cats. So they. They are not maybe as adventurous as an omnivorous species. Right. So although dogs are part of the carnivora, or carnivorous species, they are able to much more readily adapt to broader diet.

A (28:56)

Y' all know what that means?

C (29:00)

Sounds like they're obligated to eat meat.

A (29:02)

Look at you, smart.

C (29:04)

Yeah, I took Latin in college.

A (29:06)

Yeah. So they, like, need meat for their nutrients, whereas dogs can get nutrients, plants and animals. So, yeah, they. They have to eat meat.

D (29:18)

Taste can be influenced by early life experience. And in fact, kittens can be influenced by what their mom ate when she was pregnant.

A (29:27)

Wow.

D (29:28)

So in utero. So if she was eating a lot of human food, it's possible that they developed a taste for some other foods. We think that, yeah. So cats do have a reputation generally for being picky. So they may only like one texture of wet food or one shape of kibble. One meat profile. And so they. They can be picky. There's still quite a bit we don't know about why cats are so picky. I think in nature, it's natural to be cautious if something doesn't taste good. Right. So if you are an animal and you're sampling whatever is out there, plants or, you know, animals. Oh, that didn't taste good. Oh, now I don't feel good. I'm never eating that again. So I think that can. That can certainly play into it. Cats do seem to be especially sensitive to bitter. They really do not like bitter things. So medication can be really challenging for them because a lot of medications don't taste good.

A (30:21)

So there you go.

C (30:21)

You're See, now I'm like, they needed to have, like. I respond, is that my cat's mom? What did she eat? Yeah, but that would make a lot of sense because I do believe they were born in this parking lot. And so the mom was probably already there scrounging.

A (30:33)

Yep.

C (30:34)

That does it makes me, honestly now, it just seems sweet that that's, like, what they've absorbed from their mother.

A (30:41)

They're like more human food.

C (30:42)

Yeah.

A (30:43)

My mom was eating human food as a kitten. Now I want human food as an adult.

C (30:48)

Yeah. And they could. They could open wrappers. That's probably learned too, because it was a BJ's parking lot.

A (30:52)

Yeah.

B (30:53)

Oh, wow.

C (30:53)

Yeah.

A (30:54)

Yeah.

C (30:55)

And so I think, yeah, they know how to open a wrapper.

A (31:01)

How about their hearing?

D (31:03)

Hearing's very good. Yeah. They got good ears.

C (31:06)

Right.

D (31:06)

They can move their ears all around to help them localize sound. So they're much more flexible than we are. They can detect as low a sound as we can, but they can detect much higher sounds than we can. So they can kind of spy on rodents. You know, they can hear that. Some of those ultrasound noises that. That we can't hear. There was a time where my cats became very obsessed with one room in my house. They were, like, staring at the wall and I was like, oh, no, we have rodents, right? Yes. Yeah. They can hear things we can't hear. So, you know, and their hearing is quite sensitive. So again, adapted to be able to hunt effectively and. And detect when there's prey in the area. There's certain sounds that are more likely to interest them, like rustling of leaves. Right. That would be like, oh, there's something running around outside. So that kind of. They're like, tuned into, like, is there a hunting opportunity here?

A (32:12)

How about their sense of touch? I know you talk a little bit about how they use their whiskers and sort of like their sensitive areas on their body. Can you talk a bit about that?

D (32:22)

Yeah. So whiskers are just like bigger hair hairs that are innervated. Right. So they're at the base of each whisker. There are nerve endings that are going to send signals to the brain. So cats have whiskers, face, forehead. They've got them on the backs of their legs. So those are metacarpal whiskers. And so they can use all of those whiskers to get information.

C (32:48)

Right.

D (32:49)

So they can actually detect air movements with their face whisker, facial whiskers. So you can. You'll see. And it seems like you've been doing a little, like, Preparation. So you've been hanging out with some cats a little more and maybe you will after this too. But like, if you play with a cat with a toy and you're waving it around, their little whiskers will just go, oh, they move forward. It's kind of, you know, it's very cute.

A (33:09)

Yeah, like closer, like closing in almost.

D (33:11)

Yeah, exactly. And they can almost close it. Like if it was a rat, they could definitely kind of like touch the rat with their whiskers. So they're getting, because their close up vision is pretty poor, they can use their whiskers to kind of substitute for that information. So the whiskers are now telling them like, oh, the prey is moving a lot or it's, it's struggling or it's gone. And so they, they're again just kind of synthesizing information from all different kinds of places to. And you know, their brain is doing this in real time to help them decide, like, should I continue pursuing this prey? Is this prey dying or is it fighting back? Am I gonna get bitten? So they're getting information as a result of these, you know, sensitive parts of their body. And all of their hair cells are also, you know, giving them information. So about touch, they are pretty sensitive to touch. So as an example, a lot of cats don't like having their paws touched. Belly is a big sensitive area for some cats. And we are kind of the opposite. We are a high touch species. Right. So our fingertips are very sensitive, our lips are very sensitive. And so we want to hug and kiss our cats a lot because they're soft and cute. And cats are very, just sensitive. Like they're a little, you know, I wouldn't say totally twitchy, but, but it's, it's kind of like a, you know, I think too much handling can get them worked up. And so it's very common that people, like, I was just petting my cat and he turned and bit me. Like, why is he such a jerk?

A (34:45)

Yeah.

D (34:46)

And what's going on is the touch goes from feeling pleasant to feeling irritating. And when we look at how cats interact with other cats, they're friendly with, they do these very frequent, kind of short, like, I'm gonna rub against you and just, just go on my way.

A (35:01)

Yeah.

D (35:01)

But when we interact with our cats, we tend to like, I want to pet you, I want to cuddle you, I'm going to hold you and kiss you. And like, I want to do this for a really long time because you're so soft and I love you. And then the cat's like, enough. So, you know, we have to be. Yeah. So you just have to be aware. And this, you know, I think this is a really good reason to talk about how cat sensory world is so different from ours. Because the common misunderstandings that we have are often just based on the fact that we think that our pets see and experience the world like we do. And that's a dangerous assumption.

A (35:39)

So, you know, knowing that cats are very sensitive, knowing that we probably shouldn't pet them endlessly, I was also curious about what are the best places to pet our cats.

D (35:50)

So there's actually been a couple of studies on this very topic. And what they converge upon is that most cats, like, neck up is good. So cheek rubs, little like behind the ears. Most cats are going to be okay with that. Again, there's always going to be exceptions. So when we do a study of, you know, a group of animals, you're going to have some animals that are on one extreme that like petting everywhere. Right. And then you have cats at the other end that don't like any petting. And then most cats are somewhere in between. So, you know, whenever I say, okay, the most preferred area is generally above the neck. Most cats do not like the paws, the belly, the base of the tail. Those are kind of the least favorite areas across all the cats that were studied. If you're meeting a cat for the first time and you don't know anything about what this cat likes, stick to the cheek rubs. We know most cats are going to be more comfortable with that. Don't go right for the belly because some cats may like a belly rub, but it's going to take you a while to get to know that cat and see what they're comfortable and also take them some time to get to know you and trust you.

B (36:52)

Yeah.

C (36:52)

I mean, this is all true, and I know all of this, but I'm gonna put them where I want. They're gonna like it because I'm feeding them garbage. I know I smother my cats. And Tyler will always be like, you should see his or her face right now. Because I'm like, I just want them.

A (37:14)

As close as possible.

C (37:15)

As close as possible. And their face is like. And they'll. I can feel sometimes like Ruby, especially, like, tensing underneath me.

A (37:21)

Let me go.

C (37:22)

And so I. I try to be mindful. I try to. I'm like, we both can compromise. You can let me squeeze you for a little bit and I'll. I won't do it forever.

A (37:32)

I love that. That's the compromise.

C (37:33)

Yeah. Yeah. I think what's good about getting the cats as kittens, which is what we did and what other people do, is you can help desensitize them or be like, this is how it's gonna be like. You either are gonna. I mean, this makes it sound like I'm. No. I respect their boundaries, and I know when they're pissed off because they make it clear they'll do their tails going all over the ears, go back, and so I can tell when they're overstimulated. And I'll give it a break. But the moment we're back to normal, I'm like, all right.

B (38:03)

Yeah, perfect.

A (38:05)

And we'll get back to that kitten bit, because socialization is really important, especially when cats are young. So then the sixth sense, which Dr. Michael talks about in her book, is the cat's sense of balance.

D (38:22)

So cats have this very excellent sense of balance, which is in part helped by their tail, which is really an extension of their spine. So that whole, you know, I think, again, something we can't really relate to is a tail, but what that feels like and what it allows you to do. But for cats, it does allow them to enact their writing reflex, which is just their desire to have their paws facing down. Right. So they want to be upright. That's kind of what their body says is safest and natural. But, you know, if you live with a cat, you'll see they will. You know, they can jump from the floor to three feet up with no problem. They're on your counter before you know it, or they're walking along a very narrow beam. So they do have this incredible sense of balance. And you may have heard, like, a cat will always land on its feet.

B (39:12)

Yeah.

A (39:13)

Is that true?

D (39:13)

Do not. Do not try this at home. So they do have, again, this writing reflex. So if they do fall from a higher. Like, they have to have enough time to turn around. So if they fall from a lower distance, they're actually more likely to suffer a severe injury than higher up. So if. If they fall from, like, a certain height, they're more likely to. To be able to turn around and land on their feet. But that doesn't mean they won't injure themselves, because when they land hard on their feet, their chin's gonna hit the ground, they can break their jaw. And so all kinds of. So do not, like, allow your cat to jump out a window or, you know, do anything to test this. It's really not something you want to spend the. The veterinary bill, you don't want your cat to die. But, you know, there are certainly reports and cases of what we call high rise syndrome, where cats do fall out a window and survive, and it seems to be because they can turn around.

A (40:07)

The adorable four and a half year old Egyptian Mao plunged 13 stories from.

D (40:12)

His owner's penthouse balcony and somehow lived.

A (40:15)

To tell the tale. Well, that is, if he could actually talk. It's definitely a miracle.

D (40:22)

Again, not something you want to, like, test, because not every cat is going to survive. And of course, you may not hear about the cats who die after they.

A (40:29)

Fall out with death.

D (40:30)

So let's not test this.

A (40:32)

Not much of a news story.

D (40:33)

No.

A (40:43)

All right, chapter three. Does my cat hate me? All right, we're gonna transition now from the senses to talking a little bit about their personalities. I feel like usually when we're talking about stereotypes, dogs are really loving, they're loyal. Cats are usually get a bad rap as being standoffish, like, really conniving, always having some, like, alternative motive. Even when we were chatting in your apartment, you know, you described one of your cats who's more friendly is more dog like, More dog like.

C (41:17)

Yeah, I said he's more of a dog.

A (41:19)

And then Ruby, you're like, she's a bit more like a true cat. So I was curious about Dr. Michael's point of view on this. You know, what about this is true and what are these are misconceptions in terms of cat personalities.

D (41:36)

What I would say is true about that is that that is how people feel. Whether or not that is how cats are. I think there are certain things that make dogs appear more friendly and loyal, and some of that is their facial expressions. Right. So there's evidence that we've actually selected dogs to, like, be able to raise their eyebrows and they have that smile. Right. It's like, yeah, like, you see that, and what it reflects back to you is like, I'm happy, I love you. You look at a cat and you see nothing.

A (42:09)

Yeah, the eyes.

D (42:11)

Yeah. There's just like a stare. Right. It's kind of this, like, stoic. And part of that is they just don't have a many facial muscles as dogs. We know that cats actually do make a lot of very subtle facial expressions. There was a study that came out, I think, last year showing, like, you know, over 277, like, different combinations of facial changes that they use when they're interacting with other cats. But we have a hard time reading their expressions because they're much more subtle than dogs. And they don't have the same kind of human, like, appearance that a lot of dogs do do.

A (42:43)

Yeah.

D (42:43)

So I think that's part of it. We've also, again, back to that domestication question, right? Like, you know, dogs were domesticated many thousands of years before cats. And so I think that we have selected dogs to kind of be our buddy. Right. And we also socialize them as puppies to go out in the world with us and, you know, go to the coffee shop and go camping or whatever. And a lot of cats are not well adapted to that kind of lifestyle. So I think it's just, you know, part of it is, you know, maybe people who want a more like, obvious friendship and like, loyalty go for dogs. And those of us who like a little mystery and like, have a little more tolerance for, like, uncertainty might choose a cat. One of my biggest pet peeves is when you meet a really nice cat and the first thing people say is like, oh, he's just like a dog. And so, yes, right. So people always say, literally happened yesterday when you met your friend's cat. Right. So, so I think we have to recognize that there's, there's a range of behaviors that we'll see in cats. And some of that, you know, that dog like, personality is based in genetics. Some of it is based in early life experiences during the cat's socialization window, which is like 2 to 9 ish weeks of age. So during that period, ideally, kittens would be handled positively and gently by many different people. And that's just a period where kittens are very open to new experiences and they learn very quickly. So when kittens do not get a lot of handling from 2 to 9 weeks of age or a lot of experience, exposure to different people, different experiences, then every time they encounter those things as adults, it's kind of like a new, potentially scary thing that they did not. That kind of didn't happen in their early period where it was like, I'm learning about what's safe in the world. So that is really, I think one of the key reasons that people struggle with cats is that they, if they didn't get that positive exposure when they were young, it's just harder for them to adapt as an adult. And unfortunately, most people, I mean, you can't adopt a kitten before they're eight weeks of age. You know, a lot of cats are born on the streets and then get brought to the shelter. And so they're not getting a lot of experience being a pet in that early part of their life. Whereas for dogs, the dog socialization window starts a little later, and it goes a lot longer. So it's just a lot easier to help a dog adapt to living with humans than it is for cats. People do tend to project a lot of negative emotions onto cats, like, oh, he's spiteful, or he's. He wants to kill me. Like, you know, there was a study that came out years ago where they found that, like, some cats had eaten dead people. And, like, it turned into, like, is my cat going to eat me when I die? You know, it's just like this whole, like, your cat is somehow just waiting for you to die so they can eat you. You know, cats are not inherently evil. They're animals just like we are. They have certain motivations and instincts and needs. I. I really try to not project too much and certainly not project negative stuff because I think it doesn't help cats.

C (46:14)

Well, I will go on record and say, my cats are welcome to eat me.

B (46:18)

What else should they do?

C (46:20)

The least I could do for them if I. Leaving them behind, they can't open a can.

D (46:25)

Yeah.

A (46:26)

And she talks about too, how I feel like cats have a bit more boundaries than dogs do. And she says, like, cats are good teachers of consent.

C (46:38)

I was so. I was literally gonna bring up. I wrote a piece for GQ about cat dads after, like, I think it was J.D. vance made that, like, crazy cat lady comment. I was like, well, they're a crazy cat. Men too. And I talked to some, and one of the things that was coming was coming up about why, like, it's good for, I mean, anyone, but, like, why it. There was a particular type of guy who had. Had, like, like, cats. Is that you. It does require a bit of gentleness and patience. And. And you do have to start. You have to learn to read cues about, like, whether they want to be pet and things like that. And I remember hearing that and being like, I feel like maybe if everyone just had a cat, it could solve a lot of problems.

A (47:20)

Solve the male loneliness.

C (47:22)

Yeah, get a cat. It's like, when women have been lonely for hundreds of years, we've been getting cats.

B (47:27)

Figure that out.

C (47:28)

Try it out.

A (47:29)

Yeah, try it out. So there's also a lot of theories out there about whether cats view us as, like, their mothers.

C (47:38)

Oh, I'm very interested in this.

A (47:39)

Or their children. Are they other cats? So I asked Dr. Michael.

D (47:46)

Yeah, it's a great question. And unfortunately, we can't ask cats directly. Right. So we have to really infer a lot from how they behave around us and how they behave around other cats and try to figure out what is this relationship to them. So we do see cats doing behaviors to humans that they would do to other cats, say, a kitten would do to their mom. Right. And so, classic example would be meowing. You don't see cats very often meowing at other cats unless they're kittens. Kittens meow for mom a lot. Right. Just like we call mom for help when we're mom. Like, you know, I don't feel well already. We're always like, mom, mom, or dad, you know, But. But for kittens. So they meow a lot, and then they kind of don't meow at other. At adult. When they're adults at other cats, but they meow at people a fair amount. Right. So it might be, I want food. I want to go out. I want to play. I want you to pay attention to me. I'm bored. There's kind of one check in the. We're their parent, right? So because they meow at us and kittens meow at their moms, we also see things like rubbing against us. So, like, if you're hanging out with a cat, they'll often rub against your legs, Especially if they want something. Right. So again, something that kittens will do to their moms. So that would also suggest they see us maybe as a slightly parental or caregiving role. However, they also do things that would suggest more like a friendship. Right. So cats who are friends with each other will cuddle and groom each other. And so a lot of cats, you know, like to lay on us or cuddle with us or lick our hands. And so that would be, like, more in the friends category. I don't see a ton of evidence that they view us as children or offspring. Right. A lot of people think, like, oh, my cat brought a mouse home.

A (49:30)

Yeah.

D (49:30)

He must think, I'm hungry. Right. And that's.

A (49:33)

Yes, he's trying to feed.

D (49:34)

Yeah. So that's probably not what is going on, because we also know that cats will carry their prey to somewhere they feel safer to eat. So the simplest explanation for that behavior would be your cat is simply carrying the food somewhere they feel safe, and then they go to their food bowl and eat their cat food, and they're not that interested in eating the mouse. So they're probably not bringing us a present or trying to feed us or worried that we're starving. So I think, you know, the most logical explanation is that we're somewhere between a parent, caregiver and a best friend.

C (50:16)

You know what? Maybe that's why the rescue didn't respond to my email because I'm my cat. Cat's mom, and they wanted me to.

B (50:22)

Learn, look in the mirror.

A (50:23)

You're your cat's teen mom, you know. All right, we're gonna take a quick break, and when we get back, we'll get an answer to our question. Are outdoor cats happier than indoor cats? All right, so we're back.

B (51:03)

I'm Noah.

C (51:04)

I'm Kate.

A (51:05)

Devin. All right, it's time for our big question. Chapter. What chapter are we on? Chapter four. Who's happier? They all have their individual needs and personalities, but just in a general sense, wouldn't a cat that's able to explore everything in a world outside have a more fulfilling life than a cat that is stuck inside, let's say, a New York City apartment?

D (51:37)

Yeah. And I think even the way you frame the question, it's like the cat is stuck inside, right?

A (51:43)

Yeah.

D (51:43)

Versus exploring the world. So. So we have very strong opinions about this. And, you know, it's, it's, it's an ethical question. It's. There are many factors to consider. And as, as you might expect, I'm not going to give like a one size fits all is. There's no easy answer. Right. I. So I worked in an animal shelter for many years, and we did have an indoor only policy. Right. We wanted our adopters to keep their cats indoors only. And my own cats have been indoors only. And it wasn't until my. So not the cats I have currently, but my last cat, Clarabelle, she was probably about 14 years old when we decided to take her outside in our backyard on a harness. She'd been indoors the whole time we'd had her. So we, we'd had her for 13 plus years. She always seemed very happy. She was very loving, playful cat. We provided her with lots of cool stuff, you know, cat trees to climb and things to scratch and places to sleep and heated beds and toys to play with and all that stuff. But when she started going outside on her harness, it was like, oh, this is a different cat. She really, really, really loved it. And all she was doing, honestly, because she was, you know, a senior, she would go outside, roll in the grass for a few minutes, and then she just lay there in the sun and, you know, kind of watch some birds or whatever. So then I was like, wow. Like, this was. It was obviously, even though, again, she'd never had behavior problems. She was a loving, amazing cat. Like, she never seemed deprived of anything. But it was clear that this was intrinsically different than just Sitting in a window and, you know. Yeah, so. So I. I'd say since then, my perspective on whether or not cats should have some type of outdoor access has changed. And I do think that a lot of cats benefit from some type of outdoor access. So my cats currently have a catio, which is like a, you know, a patio for cats.

A (53:49)

Yes. It's very trendy on, like, TikTok and stuff. I've seen people putting them out. Like, can you explain kind of what a catio is?

D (53:55)

Yeah. So it's really just an enclosure that allows your cat to. But they cannot wander. Right. And so that's kind of what I've gravitated towards, is the question is not should cats have outdoor access? But the question is, should they be allowed to free roam? And free roaming is really where the ethical problems come into play. So, for example, bird killing and dangers to the cat, whether it's being hit by a car or fighting with other animals or poisons, and also the neighborly consideration. So when someone's cat free roams, I can tell you, because my neighbor's cat free roams, she comes and, you know, uses my side yard as a litter box, which I don't appreciate. Right. So do I think cats can be happy indoors? Yes, they can be, but it's work. So I think cats have this reputation of being low maintenance. You hear that all the time. Like, oh, if you're too busy for a dog, get a cat. Well, cats need stimulation of all of their senses. They need things to climb on. They need things to scratch. They need a clean place to go to the bathroom. They need safe places to hide. They need a sensory stimulation. So they need, you know, things like catnip or cat grass where they're, you know, chewing and smelling. And they need things to play with so they can really practice their hunting skills in a safe way. So that would be with toys instead of with birds, mice. And they need human interaction. Right. Whether that's cuddling or training or just hanging out with them, being a presence for them. So they really need a lot to thrive, a lot more than I think most people realize. And I'm also not saying just build them a catio and you don't have to do anything else. But I do think a lot of people treat it like, well, my cat goes outside, so I don't need a cat tree. I don't need a scratching post. I don't need a litter box. I don't need to play with him because he goes outside. And so. So the flip side, I Think is that people see the outdoor access is just kind of get out of jail free card. Like I don't have to do anything really, except throw down some food because everything he wants is outside. The other thing is that I think the outdoors gets a little over glamorized as far as like, oh, it's not stressful at all. A lot of cats get into fights with other cats.

A (56:06)

Yeah, I hear it a lot in my neighborhood.

D (56:08)

Exactly.

A (56:09)

It is loud.

D (56:10)

Yes. And it's not pleasant. So I think we have to consider that as well. Like there's, there's, there's benefits and costs to everything. And so for me, like, my preferred solution is a catio, because it does. And I have like a little cat door, so my cats can go in and out of the catio from my bedroom whenever they want.

A (56:27)

Nice.

D (56:29)

Some people do like harness training, which for some cats can be really fun. It really depends on the cat. Not all cats like being like in a public location or like the feeling of a harness, but a lot of cats do. So that can be a great, great solution. Or like, you know, they make pet strollers. That's less autonomy for the cat, but certainly an option for some kitties. So. So that's kind of where I tend to go is like controlled outdoor access. So can cats be happy indoors? Yes, but you got to put the work in. Do cats benefit from outdoor access? Yes, but I think safest and best is some type of controlled access rather than just free roaming.

C (57:12)

So it's like maybe they're. They're happier. Outdoor cats are happier for the short time that they are alive out there. And so like they don't quite understand. Yeah.

B (57:21)

Better to burn out than fade away.

C (57:23)

Yeah. Yeah. A good time, not a long time.

A (57:25)

Yeah, exactly.

C (57:26)

I've seen these catios as well.

A (57:29)

Yeah. They're really trying to.

C (57:30)

I wish it wouldn't be against the law for me to build one out onto my fire escape.

B (57:36)

This sounds a lot like the dog answer. That's what I especially as far as kind of attention where it's like, you know, my dog is pretty much an indoor dog.

A (57:45)

Yeah.

B (57:46)

And it's like, oh, he'd be so much happier if we moved somewhere and could just be outside all day or something. But it's like you still need to pay attention to the dog and do these things and like the dog might be bored or whatever. Not to mention then the dangers that are around. But yeah, sounds very similar as far as. Then even if your cats are indoors and have a bunch of things you need to hang out with them, or then if they're outdoors, you still need to hang out with them or get stuff. So it definitely echoes that sort of sentiment a lot.

A (58:11)

Yeah. There's no shorthand. Right. It's like, with all these situations, it comes down to, you know, caregiving and actually being attentive and not just getting an animal and feeding them and thinking, oh, my job here is done.

C (58:25)

Yeah.

A (58:26)

Like, you actually have to engage.

D (58:29)

Yeah.

B (58:29)

They're not just, like, a roommate or something.

D (58:31)

It's like.

B (58:32)

No, they might act like it.

A (58:33)

I'm over here. But I think people think of cats in that way.

C (58:35)

Yeah. Yeah, there was. I think it's hard for me to even picture, like, as someone who loves cats so much, how you could just get one and then not interact with it. Like, they're very funny little guys, I believe. I do think if I took them outside, they would need to be leashed. But the idea of getting. We didn't even touch. Like, I don't know how you get a cat who's a typical cat into a leash because Ruby would not stand for any of it.

A (59:00)

Yeah. Putting a harness on.

C (59:02)

Yeah. Absolutely not.

A (59:03)

Yeah.

C (59:04)

Yeah.

A (59:04)

So maybe, you know, maybe get a stroller.

C (59:06)

I think it might be. I'll see. Yeah. I mean, Hannah had to move across the country. Maybe it's in storage over here.

B (59:11)

Yeah.

A (59:13)

Stroller or their backpacks.

B (59:14)

Yeah. Because then they're just gazing.

C (59:16)

Yeah. I love. Oh, I love when you end up on the. The business end of that and you're just behind the person that's. I'm just gonna follow you wherever you go, looking around. Yeah.

A (59:27)

All right, Kate. So how do you feel? You know, I feel.

C (59:31)

I feel good. I feel good knowing that, like, because I think I was really worried it was gonna be. They. You know, they're really unhappy.

A (59:38)

Yeah. But you're a really attentive.

C (59:41)

I would like to think so. I think. I think the biggest outcome from this much Tyler's delight, is I want to get, like, a cat tree or something to give them a bit more stimulation for. For, you know, approximating being outside, being high up, scratching. But these two cats, like, they're so. They're a bonded pair. They're brother and sister. Like, honestly, I feel like as long. As long as I have each other, they. They seem pretty happy.

A (60:25)

No such thing is a production of Kaleidoscope content. Our executive producers are Kate Osborne and Mangesh Hadakoder. This show was created by Manny Fidel, Nora Friedman, and me, Devin Joseph. Theme end credits by Manny Fadal. Well congrats Manny and Mia on being new parents to baby Lula. Mixing for this episode is by Steve Bone. Additional music for this episode by Zeno Pittarelli. Filling in as the third mic this week was Kate Lindsay. Check out her newsletter Embedded and her podcast ICYMI. Our expert this week was Dr. Michael Delgado. Check out her book play with your cat. We're gonna put a link to it in our show notes. Visit Nosuchthing show to subscribe to our newsletter and some pics of Kate's little baby kittens. They're not kittens. They're grown ass cats now. If you have feedback for us or question, email us@maninoadevinmail.com if you're in the US you can leave us a voicemail by calling the number in our show notes. Check us out on Instagram. No such thing. Not show. We'll be back next week with a new episode.

D (61:43)

No such thing.