Should politicians be funny? (with Mike Birbiglia)

Summary

Podcast Summary: “Should politicians be funny? (with Mike Birbiglia)”
NO SUCH THING – January 7, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, hosts Manny, Noah, and Devin tackle the question: Should politicians be funny? Is humor a cheat code to election success or a risky distraction? They explore the deliberate use of humor as a political strategy, focusing on recent examples (notably Governor Gavin Newsom), and invite perspective from a humor historian, Dr. Mark Rolfe, as well as celebrated comedian Mike Birbiglia. The team examines whether humor makes politicians more relatable, what separates effective political humor from cringeworthy misfires, and how authenticity plays into who gets a laugh — and why.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Humor as a Political Weapon: The Gavin Newsom Example

[02:14] - [05:30]

• Gavin Newsom, California’s governor and likely future presidential candidate, has started mocking Donald Trump in a Trump-like style on social media, using parody, bombast, and all-caps tweets.
• Newsom’s press team crafts posts that imitate Trump’s distinctive syntax (all caps, unnecessary quotation marks, etc.) to goad him and build engagement.
  • Example tweet: “DONALD IS FINISHED. He is no longer HOT. First the hands, so tiny, and now me, Gavin C. Newsom, have taken away his step. Many are saying he can’t even do the big stairs on Air Force One anymore. Uses the little baby stairs now. SAD.”
• Reactions are split: some say it’s childish, others that it’s aggressive but necessary politics.
• Newsom on Colbert explained the shift: “Everything we were doing to try to break through wasn’t working anymore… we decided to do something novel called humor.” [06:05]

2. Is Political Humor New — and Does It Work?

[06:39] - [11:49]

• The hosts reflect on other politicians who use (or attempt) humor: Trump (intentionally and unintentionally funny), Eric Adams (“I gotta test the product!”), Obama, Pete Buttigieg, Bernie Sanders.
• Noah notes, “Obama was funny… good comic timing and that is relatable. Bernie Sanders is funny when he’s dismissing something.”
• Debate over authenticity: Do we actually believe a politician is funny, or is it their social media team? “Gavin’s not in the lab on Photoshop… this is a bunch of 30 year olds making memes,” Noah says [07:45].
• Devin points out forced humor “doesn’t work” and can even backfire (e.g., Kamala Harris’s awkward viral “Subway Takes” appearance). Authenticity is valued more than humor.
  • “A politician could be not trying to be funny, but just a little bit less guarded, a little bit more relaxed.” [09:12]

3. Why Do We Laugh? (The Historian’s Take)

[14:40] - [21:20] with Dr. Mark Rolfe

• Dr. Mark Rolfe, humor historian, discusses the origins and varied functions of laughter and humor:
  • Historically, “humor” referred to bodily fluids in ancient medicine, not jokes. Only recently have humor and laughter become linked.
  • Laughter serves social bonding: “Laughter is in need of an echo. It's part of our sociality... when we laugh with others, we are establishing bonds.” [16:30]
• Political humor as persuasion and identity: From 1700s Britain, humor became a marker of wit; in the U.S., “having a good sense of humor” became a sign of being admirable (or suspect if lacking).
  • The modern “joke” (short, written by anonymous writers) is a late-19th-century American invention.
  • Today, satire/humor in news is “consumed in line with their views” as part of polarization. [19:13]
• Notable quote:
  • “Much of what we know about humour started around 300 years ago in Britain … Satire gets used, particularly in America, as a means of political identity.” [19:13]

4. The Historical Playbook: Iconic Uses of Humor in U.S. Politics

[22:34] - [25:11]

• Examples:
  • JFK: Used wit to seem superior and charming.
  • Ronald Reagan: Famously used a joke about “not exploiting Mondale’s youth and inexperience,” (written by comedy writer Doug Gamble).
    • Reagan quote: “I will not make age an issue of this campaign. I am not going to exploit for political purposes my opponent’s youth and inexperience.” [24:17]
  • Some jokes attributed to Doug Gamble have shown up in Trump’s rhetoric as well (e.g., jokes about President Xi).
• Politicians often hire comedians for punch-up and zingers—sometimes the “funny” lines aren’t their own. [25:11]

5. Inside the Comedic Mind: Mike Birbiglia on Humor in Politics

[28:20] - [47:00]

• Manny interviews Mike Birbiglia about what makes political humor work.
• Birbiglia confirms he’s been asked to write or submit jokes for politicians, but finds “political comedy... hard.”
  • “I think he's able to pull that off. And not many people are, because people have integrity. There's not that many people with that little integrity.” — on Trump’s shameless comedic style [30:33]
  • “It's interesting, seeing Newsom mimic it on Twitter... it has defanged Trump a little bit because it shows the trick. The trick is just bombast.” [31:11]
• On authenticity:
  • “Great jokes are based in an observation that is either true or feels true... we're watching the same reality here.” [33:42]
  • “When someone is funny or nails a truth in a moment... that feels like a truth — that's when it lands.”
• On why some politicians bomb:
  • JD Vance’s “Diet Mountain Dew” joke is used as a case study in “deeply unfunny” attempts. Birbiglia and the hosts agree it failed because it was forced, the analogy made no sense, and the crowd didn’t know how to respond. [39:43]
  • Birbiglia: “That joke is just not gonna work anywhere… What a deeply unfunny person, too. I mean, he is really. He doesn't have it.” [39:44]
• On Amy Klobuchar’s repetitive “hair in a blizzard” joke:
  • Repetition turned it stale. The metaphor was muddled, the target unclear, and it recycled a decades-old attack line (“Trump’s hair”).
  • “With jokes, you need a target. All jokes are aimed at someone or something... it just doesn’t land because so many jokes have been made about his hair, about his skin, … it’s all been done.” [42:05]
• What works about Trump’s own humor:
  • Birbiglia analyzes a Trump bit about burkas: “It’s minute, it’s specific, and it’s surprising... you don’t think he’s going to talk about a woman’s point of view ever.”
  • The joke lands because it “appeals to the audience's sense of wanting him to be right,” offering confirmation bias, surprise, and a sense of shared world-view with the audience. [45:38]
  • “100% the people posting that are isolationist... and the people in the audience are too.” [46:45]

6. The Big Takeaways

[47:28] - end

• The funniest political moments often confirm what the audience already believes — they work as subtle reinforcement and social glue.
  • “A lot of the things we find funny are actually just kind of confirming what we already believe in politics.” — Manny [47:28]
• Trump’s humor works for many both because of delivery (Larry David-esque, ranty, extemporaneous) and because of how it seems authentic and natural: “It does sound comfortable and like it's actually natural... as opposed to other ones where it feels like a pre-written thing.” — Noah [48:56]
• Attempts that feel tested or forced (e.g. J.D. Vance) come off as “deeply unfunny” and awkward, even to supportive audiences.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Mike Birbiglia on Trump’s comedic style:
  “He's able to pull that off. And not many people are, because people have integrity. There's not that many people with that little integrity.” [30:33]

• Dr. Mark Rolfe on why we laugh:
  “Laughter is in need of an echo. It's part of our sociality...” [16:30]

• Reagan’s zinger, penned by a comedian:
  “I will not make age an issue of this campaign. I am not going to exploit for political purposes my opponent’s youth and inexperience.” [24:17]

• Birbiglia on a clumsy joke:
  “That joke is just not gonna work anywhere... What a deeply unfunny person, too. I mean, he is really. He doesn't have it.” [39:44]

• On authenticity versus focus-group testing:
  “If you’re not naturally funny or you’re forcing humor, it also doesn’t work... it's even worse.” — Devin [08:46]

• On jokes as confirmation:
  “A lot of things we find funny are actually just confirming what we already believe in politics.” — Manny [47:28]

• On the forced feel of bad political humor:
  “It sounds like that's a joke he thought about ahead of time... it felt like that was the second or third time he told that joke.” — Devin [49:29]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:14 – Episode introduction & scope of today’s topic
• 02:14–05:30 – Gavin Newsom’s Trump-style social media parody campaign
• 06:05 – Newsom on Colbert, explaining the humor strategy
• 07:45 – Host roundtable: does “strategic” humor work?
• 14:40 – Introduction to Dr. Mark Rolfe, humor historian
• 19:13 – The political (and American) roots of modern humor
• 22:34–25:11 – Iconic historical moments: Reagan, JFK, comedy writers for presidents
• 28:20–47:00 – Manny interviews Mike Birbiglia (deep dive into what works/doesn’t in political humor)
• 39:44 – Birbiglia on why JD Vance’s joke “will not work anywhere”
• 42:05 – Birbiglia on why Amy Klobuchar’s joke flopped
• 45:38 – Detailed analysis: why Trump’s jokes land
• 47:28–49:29 – Hosts reflect on takeaways: confirmation bias, authenticity, delivery

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Conclusion

This episode offers a sharp, entertaining, and carefully researched look at the mechanics of political humor—why it can be a powerful tool (or spectacular flop), how its history shapes our expectations, and what makes a joke “land” in the heated arena of public life. The consensus? Humor can help politicians appear relatable and authentic, but only if it feels real, timely, and lines up with what the audience already feels. Forced or focus-grouped humor usually misses, often painfully so.

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For further listening:

• Mike Birbiglia’s Working It Out podcast
• NO SUCH THING newsletter at www.nosuchthing.show

If you have your own burning question or hot take, reach out to the hosts — they just might research it live, and maybe even add a punchline.

Transcript

[Manny]

Kaleidoscope.

I'm Manny.

[Noah]

I'm Noah.

[Devin]

This is Devin.

[Manny]

And this is no Such Thing. The show where we settle our dumb arguments and yours by actually doing the research on today's episode. Should politicians be funny? And is humor kind of a cheat code to getting elected? As always, we'll talk to an expert, but then stick around for my conversation with comedian Mike Birbiglia.

[Mike Birbiglia]

What a deeply unfunny person. He doesn't have it.

[Manny]

There's no.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No such thing. No such thing. No such thing.

[Dr. Mark Rolfe]

No such thing. No such thing.

[Manny]

Run a business and not thinking about podcasting? Think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ads. Supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. Learn how podcasting can help your business. Call 844-844-IHeart.

[Evan Ratliff]

Hi, Kyle. Could you draw up a quick document with the basic business plan? Just one page as a Google Doc and send me the link. Thanks.

[Manny]

Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one page business plan for you. Here's the link.

[Evan Ratliff]

But there was no link. There was no business plan. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. I'm Evan Ratliff here with the story of entrepreneurship in the AI age. Listen as I attempt to build a real startup run by FIC PE. Check out the second season of my podcast Shell Game on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Manny]

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All right, boys. I was influenced to do this episode based on some recent activity. Okay by one. Gavin Newsome. I've heard of him. Yeah. In case you're someone in the audience who literally does not consume one ounce of politics.

[Devin]

While a lot of our audience is international.

[Manny]

Manny, that's true.

[Devin]

Or assume they know American politics.

[Manny]

I'm sorry for.

[Devin]

We're huge in Australia.

[Manny]

Yeah, I'm sorry for doing international erasure, but Gavin Newsom is a Democrat. He's the former mayor of San Francisco. He's the current governor of California. He's kind of like your archetypal politician. Right. He's, like, literally got slicked back hair. He's always wearing a suit. Very polished. He's got the veneers.

[Devin]

Good talker.

[Manny]

Or if he doesn't have veneers, don't sue me. He's got really great teeth. Yeah. It would be amazing if not. If he doesn't have veneers. Congratulations. And he's probably going to be running for president.

[Devin]

Oh, for sure.

[Manny]

I think everyone is. We've come to terms with that by now. Perhaps because of this impending presidential run, Gavin Newsom and his team have turned up the aggression, let's say, towards Donald Trump.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And we need to stand up to this authoritarian.

[Dr. Mark Rolfe]

We need to stand up.

[Mike Birbiglia]

At this moment, we're fighting fire with fire and we're going to punch these sons of bitches in the mouth.

[Manny]

And one of the ways Gavin Newsom is doing this is by using humor. They are mocking Donald Trump on social media.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So just a look at some of the tweets here. All capital letters Trump and very Trump. Like, it's obviously trying to goad Trump and get attention.

[Manny]

Basically. Donald Trump uses a very specific syntax in his posts. He does all caps. Sometimes he capitalizes words that don't need to be capitalized. He puts quotes around words that don't need quotes. And the Gavin team is writing parody versions of those, except to push their own agenda. In one post, Gavin Newsom calls MAGA Republicans, quote, snowflakes in all caps. In another, he says this, quote, donald is finished. He is no longer hot. First the hands, so tiny, and now me. Gavin C. Newsom have taken away his step. Many are saying he can't even do.

The big stairs on Air Force One anymore. Uses the little baby stairs now.

Sad. While conservatives argue that this is childish and silly, if I were his wife.

I would say, you are making a fool of yourself. Stop it.

He's got a big job as governor.

Of California, but if he wants an.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Even bigger job, he has to be.

[Manny]

A little bit more serious.

Democrats have been saying, yeah, that's kind of the whole point.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I freaking love what Governor Newsom is doing, because that's what offense looks like. And I'm tired of being told, you know, when they go low, we go high. I mean, the way I see it, when they go low, we should bury their ideas below the Capitol.

[Manny]

So this was going on throughout 2025, but as recently as a few days ago, on New Year's Eve, Gavin's press team posted this. Happy New Year to everyone, especially the deeply disturbed losers suffering from extreme newsome derangement syndrome. Speaking of losers, I hope Donald Trump has the 2026 quote he deserves after unleashing chaos on the people of this great country. But I want to play you guys. Gavin Newsom on Stephen Colbert's show, he responds to the reaction that he's been getting to some of the stuff Two Kings.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Everything we were doing to try to break through wasn't working anymore. And so we decided to do something to your point, a novel called humor. And I gotta say, oftentimes Democrats, we're a little, you know, just. We're not as humorous as we should be.

[Manny]

A little stiff.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It could be a little stiff. And so we thought we'd have some fun with it, but I never imagined it would break through like it has and get under the skin of the President of the United States. And some of my friends.

[Manny]

I thought it was interesting, this kind of usage, deliberate usage of humor in a political strategy.

[Devin]

Especially as Newsom says, they tried other things and they didn't break through. Right. So this wasn't the first thing on their list, but it's the thing that they think has worked.

[Manny]

Yeah. And he's obviously not the first politician to try and inject, like, comedy or humor into his political strategy. You've got people like Donald Trump who sometimes makes you laugh by accident, like, you're laughing at him, but sometimes is saying stuff that's supposed to make you laugh. His visceral response to attack people on their appearance.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I never attacked him on his look. And believe me, there's plenty of subject matter right there that I can tell you.

[Manny]

You know, we've got characters like Eric Adams who, like, is saying some absolute.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Saying, ship, I hear you be partying. Listen, I'm a nightlife man. I got to test the product.

[Manny]

But he. I think he knows that.

[Noah]

Oh, yeah, he's hilarious.

[Manny]

He's in on a joke. Yeah. I'm curious, do you guys feel like humor is a successful strategy for politicians to appear more relatable? Like, have we just been seeing very specific cases? Do we feel largely that they should stick to policy?

[Noah]

Well, it's interesting because the conversation today is so focused on, like, their social media accounts, which it's like, Gavin's not in the lab on Photoshop making this up. You know what I mean? So it's like that. That, to me, adds a layer where I'm like, all right, this isn't you. This is like a bunch of whatever 30 year olds who work for you, making that makes it like this distance where it's like, well, I don't even think you're funny. You know, I think a lot of politicians, you know, it's like Obama was funny, famously the White House correspondent. Like, he was very like, good comic timing and like, that is relatable. Or like, you know, Bernie Sanders is funny when he's talking and like, you know, dismissing something or whatever. Like, so, I mean, I think it's a good and normal human thing to use humor. I don't think it should be like the bulk of your political strategy. It's like the who would you want to get a beer with thing. Like, I remember when our boy George W. Bush was elected, that was like the big thing. It's like, he seems like a chummy guy.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Noah]

It's like. And like that counts for something. It's like, okay, can this be someone I could relate to in a normal human way?

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Devin]

I think people are over estimating the power of humor because I think what people associate humor with is like, authenticity or like not being guarded or buttoned up. But if you're not naturally funny or you're forcing humor, it also doesn't work. We've seen plenty of examples of like really stuffy politicians trying to be funny. And it's like, okay, this is even worse.

[Manny]

J.D. vance with the male.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, J.D.

[Devin]

Vance is like someone who famously is not funny. Right. Like, and he tries and it doesn't. So I think like, a politician could be not trying to be funny, but just a little bit less guarded, a little bit more relaxed, a little less worried about saying the wrong thing at all times or not saying anything at all. Because you're so afraid of what you like, who you may upset. I think that more so is more important than like a politician being funny.

[Manny]

Yeah. I think you guys are right about this. Essentially what Noah was saying about, would you get a beer with this person? It's like this ability for the politician to be able to hang, essentially. I've been watching, unfortunately, the Flagrant podcast, and you just, you see politicians go on there and you start to wonder the value of, like, them being in that kind of environment. Obviously Donald Trump went on there last year and they were just kind of kissing his ass, so it doesn't count. But Pete Buttigieg went on, and I was kind of surprised by how easily he kind of melted into that, into that environment. You can't privatize the public park.

Right.

This is the whole idea of public goods.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Sure. Why we have governments, why we collect taxes. God, we're turning such lives already, dude.

[Manny]

And it literally made me as like a voter be like, oh, interesting. Like I didn't know that he had this side to him. At the same time, I could never imagine Kamala Harris being on that show because yeah, some Democrats are so risk averse that not able to be in an environment where like the questions weren't approved ahead of time. And that kind of stuff I think gets to people.

[Devin]

And it's frustrating with her specifically because I do think she has it in her. Like I, you know, we've obviously seen clips and instances of like, like her talking about cooking and shit. It's just like you can be normal.

[Noah]

Yeah, no, she, she seems a lot more normal if she would let herself be that way. Yeah, that's what's so funny. Where it was this, they're going back and forth about her not being on Joe Rogan or whatever. And it's like I actually think if she was able to relax and go on something like that, she could be good.

[Devin]

Yeah.

[Noah]

But like she's so trained up that she won't. But yeah, when she talks about cooking or whatever, like after a speech or whatever, talking to just people.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I should be calling you Senator Harris, right? No, you should not.

[Manny]

That's not on my birth certificate. Okay, just don't call me auntie, ok?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Okay, okay. I won't call you Audi.

[Noah]

You could see, you know one how she got to where she is.

[Manny]

Yeah. There was a moment, the mamala stuff where it was like, okay, this does feel kind of relatable. But then you hear stories like the subway takes guy where it's this viral show where you go on and give a hot take. Apparently Kamala went on during the campaign and had a take that was so focused, group tested and awkward that everyone just mutually decided to scrap the episode.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Her take was that bad? It was really, really bad. And it was, it was like, didn't make any sense, I can tell you. Yeah, it was bacon. Bacon as a spice. You think that was her opinion? You think she had like a research group trying to figure something. Research group. And then I was like, if I post this, a lot of people are going to be mad at me.

[Manny]

Now counter example, Zoran Mandani, newly elected mayor of New York City. You know, not like the funniest guy ever, but one can easily see the effect a politician can have when they're able to be themselves regardless of the situation or environment. But speaking of the effect that politicians can have, we're going to be hearing from a humor historian who's going to walk us through the history of humor in politics. And then we're going to hear from actual comedian Mike Birbiglia. That's after the break.

Run a business and not thinking about podcasting. Think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ad supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only iHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business. Think iHeart streaming radio and podcasting. Let us show you at iheartadvertising.com that's iheartadvertising.com hi Kyle.

[Evan Ratliff]

Could you draw up a quick document with a basic business plan? Just one page as a Google Doc and send me the link. Thanks.

[Manny]

Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one page business plan for you. Here's the link.

[Evan Ratliff]

But there was no link. There was no business plan. It's not his fault. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. My name is Evan Ratliff. I decided to create Kyle, my AI co founder, after hearing a lot of stuff like this from OpenAI CEO Sam Altman.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There's this betting pool for the first year that there's a one person billion dollar company which would have been like unimaginable without AI. And now will happen.

[Evan Ratliff]

I got to thinking, could I be that one person? I'd made AI agents before for my award winning podcast, Shell Game. This season on Shell Game, I'm trying to build a real company with a real product run by fake people.

[Manny]

Oh, hey Evan.

Good to have you join us. I found some really interesting data on.

Adoption rates for AI agents in small to medium businesses.

[Evan Ratliff]

Listen to Shell game on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

[Manny]

We're back. I'm Manny. I'm Noah Devin and we're about to hear from Dr. Mark Rolfe. He is an expert in the history of humor and politics. He's a professor at the University of New South Wales in Sydney. And here I'll just have him introduce himself.

[Dr. Mark Rolfe]

Well, basically I've always been interested in politics, humor and history since childhood. I've basically built a career out of those three things combined. I treat satire as really a species of rhetoric, an offshoot of rhetoric. So humour and satire generally as means of persuasion.

[Manny]

Okay, so before we get into the weeds, I do love to talk about these Kind of topics more existentially. So I asked him, what even is humor? Why do we laugh?

[Dr. Mark Rolfe]

The term humor is an ancient one, but up until about three, 400 years ago, it was part of medicine. Humor or humors referred to the four liquids of ancient and medieval medicine. Black bile, yellow bile, phlegm, and blood. And the balance of these four liquids dictated your temperament. That's why we can still say sometimes, oh, he's in a bit of bad humor. Split humor from laughter, they're not the same. But the way we've talked about the two together during the 300 years, but particularly the last 200 years, we've said humor and laughter are equivalent. If there's laughter, there's been a joke. Okay. But when you think about it, there's laughter for a range of reasons. Without jokes, okay. You tickle a baby, the baby laughs. There's no joke. Obviously, there can be release of joy, physical effects that are good without any joke. The Vikings, they laughed with scorn. Without jokes, they laughed with scorn at enemies, and they would laugh at violence. Aristotle, the philosopher talks about how Greeks would laugh at ugliness. What I'm pointing to is a range of different things that we laugh at as humans. And as one philosopher called Henry Bergson said, laughter is in need of an echo. It's part of our sociality. We can laugh on our own, but when we laugh with others, we are establishing bonds with them as well.

[Manny]

So this segment really made me think about people like Eric Adams.

[Devin]

Yes.

[Manny]

And even Curtis Lewa, who is the Republican nominee for mayor of New York City. Like, are we laughing with them or at them? If we're gonna split humor and laughter apart as concepts, Even with President Trump. Yeah.

[Devin]

There are times where he makes a joke that will make me laugh, and there's times where he's not making a joke and I'm cracking up.

[Manny]

Yeah, Yeah.

[Devin]

I wonder, serious.

[Manny]

I wondered about kind of the ratio with someone like Donald Trump, for example. Like, if we're gonna say he's funny, we have. Maybe we want to quantify what percentage of the things he's saying is supposed to make you laugh versus what is just, you know, we're just like, this guy's insane.

[Noah]

I think more than lots of left leaning people would admit.

[Manny]

Okay.

[Noah]

He's purposeful.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Noah]

Like, I think a lot of times he's trying to be funny and often succeeding. And people are laughing at him, maybe thinking they're laughing at him, but they're laughing with him.

[Manny]

Yeah. Like not. We're not. Sometimes not Clocking that he's trying to.

[Noah]

Be funny or like, not G credit where it's due, basically. And more generally thinking about what he just said there, where it's like, I'm much more likely to laugh out loud if I'm in a movie theater or watching something with another person than if I'm sitting by myself watching a movie. It's really hard to get a real laugh out of me by myself. And obviously that's not like a conscious thing, but it is something like I'm signaling that I got the joke. I guess it's interesting to think about that community aspect of laughter.

[Manny]

Yeah, it makes me think of, like, memes, even where it, like the point of it is a kind of a communal reaction to the content. So one thing I wanted to ask Dr. Rolf to do was give me a brief overview of the history of humor in politics, because something I learned when I was reading about his work is that this is kind of a relatively new concept.

[Dr. Mark Rolfe]

Much of what we know about humour started around 300 years ago in Britain, and we carry on many of the ideas, especially this idea of political satire from the British, and that went to colonial America and all the British literature of that time. So you've got the concept of humour and then you get later on with the British the idea of a national humour. And then America imparts its twist on the idea in the 1870s with the sense of humour being a good individual thing, that a person can be admired for having a good sense of humour and a little bit suspect for not having a good sense of humour. So in that way, when you look at the history of a lot of our ideas, you find that they're not as universal as we might think, that they have really short periods in the scheme of things. I've looked at how some of these things went to America and how American ideas of humour, vaudeville and the invention of the joke that we know today, it was also an invention of America in the 1870s and 80s, when you've got a huge creation of a mass entertainment circuit going on and the creation of joke writers, you know, the anonymous two or three line joke that we know today, an American invention, satire gets used these days, particularly in America, as a means of political identity. So a lot of Americans consume their news in aligned with their views and they consume satire or humor in line with their views.

[Mike Birbiglia]

As your slogan says, fox News. We read the chain mails your grandma gets in her inbox out loud like they were true.

[Dr. Mark Rolfe]

And obviously it lines up with this issue of polarization of America.

[Manny]

So I thought it was interesting that humor historically is something that we use to grade like a human being. Like you might think someone is a great person, but if they're not funny, it's kind of suspect.

[Devin]

Well, even if they're not funny, then you have to know what is funny. You know, like every dating prompt ever is like, you must have a good sense of humor. Or every love island, they're like, what's your type? It's like, you know, really great banter, like great sense of humor. So like being. If you're not the one telling jokes, being able to laugh at jokes is very important. I feel like it's just like a roundabout way of being like, not like someone who has like a stick up their ass.

[Manny]

Yeah. And I also thought it was interesting that the kind of concept of a joke is pretty new and also American.

[Devin]

The seventies. I was gonna say I was going through some stuff in my head. It's like not gonna say this guy's wrong.

[Noah]

Hold on, how old is this guy?

[Manny]

And I, and I do think he means like in a formal.

[Devin]

Probably he was saying like specific, like.

[Manny]

Free lines, was telling jokes.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, yeah.

[Manny]

The kind of anonymous, as he calls it, an anonymous two or three line joke.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Devin]

The new version, the modern version of what we consider a joke.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Devin]

Not like the slapstick stuff of the past.

[Manny]

Right. So we today have our kind of modern day examples of politicians using humor in politics. But I asked Dr. Rolf if there were any famous examples in the past that those of us who are so young might not be acquainted with.

[Dr. Mark Rolfe]

You can go back to John F. Kennedy, given what I said about the history before. We think more highly of a person who displays a good sense of humour. And that's when we commend them for having wit. So we think that they are a bit superior, a bit more intellectual, a bit more classy. That's how John Kennedy used humour. What have you done for the women according to the promises of the platform?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Well, I'm sure we haven't done enough. And.

[Dr. Mark Rolfe]

And so people often look back to his press conferences in which he's charming the journalists nearby, but also the TV viewers with his sense of humour. You've also got Ronald Reagan. He employed a comedic writer called Doug Gamble. And there was a famous line in the 1984 election against Walter Mondo. And the issue of Ronald Reagan's age come up. You might know the Crip, you already.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Are the oldest president in history. And some of your staff say you.

[Evan Ratliff]

Were tired after your most recent encounter with Mr. Mr. Mondale, is there any.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Doubt in your mind that you would be able to function in such circumstances?

[Evan Ratliff]

I will not make age an issue of this campaign. I am not going to exploit for.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Political purposes my opponent's youth and inexperience.

[Dr. Mark Rolfe]

That quip was written by Doug Gamble. Doug Gamble has also contributed some quips to Donald Trump. Some people didn't take it quite as a joke, but his line about, oh, Xi Jinping being president for life, he's.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Now president for life. Maybe we'll have to give that a shot someday.

[Dr. Mark Rolfe]

Okay, that came from Doug Gamble. Those are some of the ways in which politicians can use humour as well as using humor as an attack dog against opponents.

[Manny]

So I knew politicians could be funny naturally, but I didn't know that they were like, actually hiring comedians not really to make their speeches funny, but to just have little bits here and there.

[Noah]

Yeah, I need to do that.

[Devin]

Yeah.

[Noah]

My guy over here, hey, say this.

[Manny]

This guy Doug Gamble, who wrote that famous line for Reagan, who's also seems to be still around writing stuff for Donald Trump. So sometimes, you know, we hear some silly thing from a politician and we think, wow, this guy's on one good one. But it actually could be written from some comedian.

[Noah]

Pre written.

[Devin]

Cuomo should have used Doug in his last debate against Zoron because he did not have some, some good comments.

[Noah]

I think Biden should have hired that guy before he. I didn't realize Trump had used him. He's like talking about old.

[Manny]

Yeah. All right, so we learned a lot about kind of the history of the utilization of comedy in politics. Is that a word, utilization? How about use the use over complicating it? We learned a lot about the use of comedy in politics in history. But now I think it'd be a good idea to talk to an actual comedian, you know, get their thoughts about why some of this stuff lands, why some of it doesn't. And famously, there's a popular podcast that does just that where they work on jokes in real time. It's called Mike Birbiglia's Working It Out. So after the break, I'm gonna head over to the studio where he records that podcast and talk to Mike.

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[Evan Ratliff]

Hi, Kyle, could you draw up a quick document with the basic business plan? Just one page as a Google Doc and send me the link. Thanks.

[Manny]

Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one page business plan for you. Here's the link.

[Evan Ratliff]

But there was no link. There was no business plan. It's not his fault. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. My name is Evan Ratliff. I decided to create Kyle, my AI co founder, after hearing a lot of stuff like this from OpenAI CEO Sam Altman.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There's this betting pool for the first year that there's a one person billion dollar company which would have been like unimaginable without AI. And now will happen.

[Evan Ratliff]

I got to thinking, could I be that one person? I'd made AI agents before for my award winning podcast, Shell Game. This season on Shell Game, I'm trying to build a real company with a real product run by fake people.

[Manny]

Oh, hey, Evan, good to have you join us.

I found some really interesting data on adoption rates for AI agents and small to medium businesses.

[Evan Ratliff]

Listen to Shell game on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcast.

[Manny]

All right, we are back. This is Manny, and this is my conversation with comedian Mike Birbiglia. Thanks for doing this, Mike.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Oh, yeah, thank you.

[Manny]

I've been doing a little bit of studying about the usage of humor and comedy in politics for like the last 100 years or so.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Wow.

[Manny]

And I've been surprised to learn that politicians used to quite frequently hire comedians to either appear wittier or in some instances, like specifically write jokes for them. JFK hired a comedian to kind of appear smarter on the. On the campaign trail. And then some politicians, like Ronald Reagan, actually had comedians write specific jokes for him. There's a famous instance where Walter Mondale kind of cracks at Reagan for being too old. And his response is that he's not going to use Walter's inexperience against him. And that was actually written by a comedian. So I guess my first question is like, have you heard of this happening today? Have you ever been asked to kind of punch up a politician's speech?

[Mike Birbiglia]

I've been asked. I think I have before. I think I've maybe submitted jokes. Yeah. Maybe during debates or something.

[Manny]

So this is like debate training almost.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I don't think any of mine were used. I also didn't take it very seriously.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, I don't think I was very focused on it, or I don't. And I don't think I was in the inner circle of it. I find the assignment to be hard.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Political comedy. I just find it to be hard.

[Manny]

What about it is hard? It's harder than, for example, being in a room, like a stand up comedy show.

[Dr. Mark Rolfe]

It's funny.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, I heard Jon Stewart describe it recently in an interview with the New Yorker where he said, you look at Trump and it's like, he's not funny, but he has a funny cadence. And I think that combined. The cadence is like an entertainer's cadence combined with a complete and total willingness to say anything, regardless of any meaning whatsoever.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And I think he's able to pull that off. And not many people are because people have integrity. There's not that many people with that little integrity.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You know what I mean?

[Manny]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's a unique. And some people call it shame. No shame. Right. And it's like, interestingly, seeing Newsom mimic it on Twitter has been fascinating to me because I think it has defanged Trump a little bit because it shows the trick. And the trick is just bombast.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

The trick is just all caps, bombast, pop. And it's like, oh, that's not hard. That's an intern just wrote that. Like, I don't think Gavin Newsom's writing these bombastic tweets.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This wouldn't be my guess.

[Manny]

A lot of people I know find Trump to be funny. I debate my friends whether we're laughing at or with Trump.

[Noah]

Sure.

[Manny]

Is there some sense from the public maybe that it's like, wow, I wish I could say the things that Trump says where he's like, kind of crossing boundaries that. That might feel freeing to people.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I've heard different theories on it, and I don't know which is true, but I've heard, like, one theory is that people have for 30, 40 years, maybe longer, maybe 50 or 100 years, have felt so lied to by politicians that there's something in it where they go, well, at least here's all the raw footage of the documentary. And then we can cut our own.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

From it.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You know what I mean?

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, here's the lies, here's the truths, here's the everything. I'm unloading the clip. You figure it out.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Noah]

And.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And it's a little bit in the kind of do your own research realm where people are like, oh, okay, I can make sense of this nonsense think. I mean, I think that's part of the appeal from someone who. For whom it does not appeal. Right.

[Manny]

And you touched on this a little bit already. But why is the kind of Gavin Newsom strategy? Why do you think it's resonating with some people? I see a lot of people.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think it resonates. Yeah. I think it resonates because it reveals what Trump does as a trick.

[Manny]

So demystifies. It's like seeing how a magician does, like a card trick or something. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Plus he's a governor. And so there's like, it's high stakes. It's higher stakes than if Mike Birbiglia the comedian did a bunch of all caps tweets, which I'm sure comedians have done. You know, I'm sure that that's out there as a trope, but, like, him doing it from this stately position, like, does feel consequential.

[Manny]

Yeah, I guess from a kind of a zoomed out perspective. What do you think it is about, like, someone having a good sense of humor that signals a level of authenticity? Like when some politicians, as we're going to get into in a second attempt humor and kind of fall short, the public consensus is kind of that they are fake or they're manufactured or this is like a focus group tested. There's some inauthenticity. So what is it about a good sense of humor that makes people feel like, wow, this is like a real human being think.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think that great jokes are based in an observation that is either true or feels true. And so when a politician is observing something that people have feel like they've observed, there's a sense of like, well, we're watching the same reality here.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I think that there is something where there have been some politicians without naming names in the last 30 years where they were not able to read the room. And as a result, people really lost faith in them. Like, you know, a famous example, actually this does name names is the George W. Bush Mission accomplished. Right.

[Manny]

Where it's kind of a tone deaf.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. Everyone's just going, what? There's all these people dead. What are you talking about? And I think that that, and the opposite of that is when someone is funny or nails a truth in a moment or what feels like a truth in a moment. I, you know, I mean, even like the speech that all these people criticized, which is like Trump's, I want to say, his inauguration, like 17 or something, was the carnage speech.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This American carnage stops right here and stops right now. A Lot of people were like, like, oh, it's so dark, and it's so this and so that. Well, yeah, but also, like, some people's lives are really dark.

[Manny]

It's like painting a picture to them that felt familiar.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. So I actually think I criticize 99% of what Trump does. That speech I actually found, like, it's not for me, but it's hitting. It's hitting with some people.

[Manny]

Yeah. And you understood why it was resonating.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Manny]

So on your show, you do a lot of kind of, like, working on. Oh, we do. Yeah. Which is a lot of fun to listen to.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Thanks.

[Manny]

And to better kind of understand the dynamic here that we've been talking about, I'd love to do a quick experiment with you. I've brought a couple of jokes from politicians in the past couple of years, and I'd love to get your sense of, like, why they didn't work and what you might do to help them if you were hired to write them.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Great.

[Manny]

All right, so the first One is from J.D. vance. This is when he was on the campaign trail.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Democrats say that it is racist to believe. Well, they say it's racist to do anything. I had a diet Mountain Dew yesterday and one today. I'm sure they're gonna call that racist.

[Dr. Mark Rolfe]

Too, but.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It'S good. I love you guys.

[Dr. Mark Rolfe]

But.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I love you guys. That's a tough one. Yeah. I mean, it clearly. It's a great example of someone who is surrounded by people who agree with.

[Manny]

Him all the time. Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's like, I actually think that one of the keys to being a decent comedian is playing for crowds who aren't dying to hear what you say next.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Because I do a mixture of shows, like, when I'm on tour. It's meaningful for my process, but I know that those people have watched my other six specials, and they get the tone of what I'm doing, and they. Right. And so I like. It's an inside joke. I know that they know that I know that I'm joking about this, this, and this and that. These four things we can accept to be true. And then I also played the Comedy Cellar in New York and other places like it where I'm not on the bill, I pop up. I would say most people don't know who I am, or at least half don't know who I am. And so you get what I think of as, like, a true bounce. Like in tennis, true bounce of the ball or basketball. Like. Yeah. Where you go, okay.

[Manny]

Kind of an unbiased blank Slate. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

This is. Yeah. This is how this reads to people. And so that the JD Vance clip. The great example of, like. It's very telling.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He's clearly surrounded by people for whom they believe everything is construed as racist all the time.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Even a Diet Mountain Dew, which is a really tricky analogy. I don't even know what the joke is.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Can you explain?

[Manny]

I guess that's what I. I was looking. I was seeking information on. I think he's clearly, after telling the joke, waiting for.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Right.

[Manny]

Actually, yeah. The Diet Mountain Dew. I don't know. I. I'm from Ohio as well. I. I drank Mountain Dew growing up. I don't. I don't really. I didn't see what was going on here in the Mac.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I'm unaware of any racial implications of Mountain Dew, nor Diet Mountain Dew.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So I would say, like, zoom out. If he's playing to his base and he wants to make a joke about how everyone calls everything racist all the time, I would pick something that has a racial implication.

[Manny]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Choose a product that has a racial implication. People can call me racist for blank. Fill in the blank. Product that. Whatever. So that's for playing for his bass. For playing, like, wider. I don't know. It's almost like you'd have to nail the perfect thing, culturally, that people are annoyed at because they've heard it called racist. And we all know that's a bit much.

[Manny]

Right. What confused me is that this is an audience ostensibly rooting for him, like, wanting to be entertained by him.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Truly bombing.

[Manny]

Yeah. To be fair to J.D. vance, which is a sentiment I've never had in my life and probably never will again, how much of this could be that? Some jokes fall flat on some crowds. I'm sure you've had experiences before where you've told the same joke to two different rooms and gotten two completely different reactions as you were touching on earlier.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Certainly. But that joke is just not gonna work anywhere. I think that. That. Honestly, it's. It's that he's surrounded by sycophants who are just laughing on every word he's saying.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Versus listening to the content of what he's saying. What a deeply unfunny person, too. I mean, he is really. He doesn't have it.

[Manny]

I've got one more for you. Okay. And this. And to be fair, you know, that was someone on the right. We're gonna pick someone on the left. Now. We've got a joke here from Amy Klobuchar, and it's a Little bit of a compilation.

The president actually sent out a tweet. He made fun of me for talking about climate change in the middle of a blizzard, and he called me Snow Woman. So I wrote back, hey, Donald Trump, the science is on my side, and I'd like to see how your hair would fare in a blizzard. So I wrote back, hey, Donald Trump, the science is on my side, and I'd like to see how your hair.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Would fare in a blizzard.

[Manny]

So I wrote back, donald Trump, the science is on my side, and I'd like to see how your hair would fare in a blizzard.

And you get the picture. She's done this maybe a hundred times. The same joke over and over. And just for the listener, during that clip, Mike had his head in his hands.

[Mike Birbiglia]

True story. Wait, wait. I don't even feel like. At the jokes. Can you explain the joke to me?

[Manny]

He, at one point was criticizing the Democrats for, like, drumming up climate change as, like, a real thing. Of course it is. And I guess this is her response. If you don't think climate change is real, well, I would like to see what your hair would be doing and the blizzards that are happening more often. I guess I'm very confused as well.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, that's a tricky one. I like Senator Klobuchar a lot, but that. That one is clearly.

[Manny]

Maybe this has come from someone on her team or. Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I performed at a couple fundraisers in the last election, and I say people make fun of us in the city. They call us coastal elites just because we live on a coast and we're better than other people. And in fairness, part of the time, we live in Aspen, and that's like, I think we're with jokes.

[Dr. Mark Rolfe]

You.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You need a target. I did a special for Netflix years ago called thank God for Jokes, and essentially, one of the key points in it is, like, all jokes are aimed at someone or something. Like, all. All jokes are offensive to someone.

[Manny]

Like, as a target.

[Devin]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Every joke, if you think about it, unless it's just nonsense, which is its own genre. Like, unless it's abstract. But it's interesting hearing her take aim at Trump in that way, because it's like, it just doesn't land. And it doesn't land because so many jokes have been made about his hair, about his skin, about his whatever. Like the, you know, orange skin. His hair's a toupee, you know?

[Manny]

And to your point, it is kind of unclear initially what the target of the joke is.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes.

[Manny]

I guess everyone's hair would kind of be going crazy. In a blizzard. Right.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And it's. It's. But it's. It's a real quandary, I would say, for people who are on the other side of him to make jokes at his expense. Because it's like, it's all.

[Manny]

It's all been done.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's all been done. I mean, it's part of the reason I don't go into political comedy realm right now. I did a little bit that when George W. Bush was president. The only reason I did was that someone was opening up for me in Pittsburgh, and they were doing all this pro George W. Bush material.

[Manny]

Interesting.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And I've never been in the habit of censoring anyone.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

So I didn't say, hey, could you not do that? So instead, I wrote a joke about George W. Bush, and that ended up on my album, To Drink Mike. And the premise is, it's like George W. Bush is like the guy who shows up but at the barbecue and starts the wiffle ball game.

[Manny]

He's.

[Mike Birbiglia]

He's Wiffle ball Tony. He's like, hey, y' all want to play wiffle ball? And then play through the analogy with WMDs and all that, and. But I have not. It was interesting about that joke. Is that played in the south, in the middle of the country? Partly because it was so silly. Like.

[Manny]

Yeah, it's kind of absurd.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, it's absurd. Similar to Mulaney horse in a hospital bit. This guy being the president. It's like, there's a horse loose in a hospital. It's like, there's a horse loose in a hospital. I think eventually everything's gonna be okay, but I have no idea what's gonna happen next. And neither do any of you, and.

[Manny]

Neither do your parents.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Cause there's a horse loose in the. The hospital, and there is something that he's capturing that even a Trump supporter I think would not disagree with, which is. It's just chaotic.

[Manny]

Yeah. And there's a point to it.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Manny]

Fun.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You can't dispute that there's chaos with this president.

[Manny]

Yeah. We just did two jokes that you punched up. I wondered if you have time to listen to one from Trump. I would like to know why it works. Actually. A lot of people find this clip to be really funny. And I do, too, if I'm being honest. Oh, wow. Yeah. I contain multitudes. So this. This joke I see get circulated often on X, for example, where people be like, okay, you gotta hand it to him in some instances.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Would we be better off as an example in Iraq? What are we Doing. It's like I saw somebody.

[Dr. Mark Rolfe]

I won't even say because it's embarrassing. We want it where the women over.

[Mike Birbiglia]

There don't have to wear the.

[Dr. Mark Rolfe]

You know what?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Then I saw women interviewed. They said, we want to wear them. We've worn them for a thousand years. Why would anybody tell us not to? They want to. What the hell are we getting involved for? In fact, it's easier. You don't have to put up makeup. Look how beautiful everyone looks. Wouldn't it be easier? Wah. Right. I'll tell you, if I was a woman, I don't want to. Wah. I'm ready, darling.

[Dr. Mark Rolfe]

Let's go.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's true.

[Manny]

What is it about this one that's like. Some people are like, okay, I could see the humor in this.

[Mike Birbiglia]

In my opinion, it appeals to the audience's sense of wanting him to be right. So if I were going to guess, I'd say the people in the audience and the people posting it are isolationists. They don't think we should be in foreign wars, etc.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And then here's this guy making this kind of outrageous nonsense digression that in some way lands it in the sense of everybody wins in the joke.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

It's like the isolationists win because they're like, we also don't want to be in foreign wars. The, the people in the Middle east win because that's what.

[Manny]

They don't want us there.

[Mike Birbiglia]

That's what they want also. They want us not to be there. They want, et cetera. And then his example is minute and it's specific and it's surprising.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

First of all, you don't think he's gonna talk about woman's point of view ever.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

I mean, it's just someone who doesn't care about women, clearly. So then he does in a surprise turn, and it's confirmation bias on what the audience already wanted to hear.

[Manny]

Right. So that's really insightful. You're saying essentially this joke confirms the view of the world that I would, like, see.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, it's like 100% the people posting that I'm sure are isolationist.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Mike Birbiglia]

And the people in the audience are too.

[Manny]

Really fascinating. Well, thank you so much for doing this has been illuminating.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Thanks. I'm glad it great talking about it, because I, I. Because it's not what I do.

[Manny]

Yeah. All right. That was my conversation with Mike. Mr. Mike Birbiglia. Gotta say, very nice guy. The most interesting thing I got from this interview is something that the historian told us, which is that A lot of the things we find funny are actually just kind of confirming what we already believe in politics.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Manny]

And so when he was saying that a lot of people like that Trump joke about the burkas.

[Devin]

Yeah.

[Manny]

Because we actually don't want to be involved in all of these wars.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Manny]

I don't know. That really resonated. I didn't realize that was why. Yeah.

[Devin]

Like, it's kind of right, Right. Where it's like, leave people alone. Let them do their own thing.

[Manny]

Right.

[Devin]

If Trump was saying the opposite of that in that clip, we wouldn't find it as funny.

[Manny]

Exactly. And like, both. Both at the time, MAGA people and people on the left were kind of the. No more foreign war stuff.

[Devin]

Yes.

[Manny]

That hasn't panned out for the MAGA people. But still funny to. To me.

[Devin]

What's funny to me about that clip, and he mentioned it earlier in your interview with him, is like so much of. Of what's funny about Trump is his delivery. And that delivery is like very Larry David esque, you know, with the way he, like, talks like. Like, leave him alone.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Like, honey, let's go.

[Devin]

I was like, I could see this being like, you know, something similar kind of did happen in Curb, but I was like, Larry could do this same bit in Curb.

[Manny]

Yeah. It's more of, like, rant than it is, like, set up punchline, I guess.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yes.

[Devin]

Yeah. Yeah. He has that sort of just sort of like stream of consciousness sort of thing. And that was when, you know, we've reached another level of Trump stream of consciousness where it never really comes back to the beginning. The weave, as he calls it. But that was when you could still kind of follow what was happening.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah. It was from start to end a.

[Noah]

Nice level where, you know, we still got somewhere.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Noah]

There was a destination.

[Devin]

Exactly.

[Noah]

Yeah.

[Manny]

What's.

[Noah]

What's notable is that it. It does sound comfortable and like it's actually natural and not less versus other ones where it feels like a pre written thing and it's just like, like, okay, now, now's the time when I bring out my joke and everyone's gonna love it, you know?

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Noah]

You know, to his credit, that's something Trump's able to do, is sound like he's just talking.

[Manny]

Yeah. Extemporaneously, it feels genuine, authentic.

[Devin]

Might be still thinking about the Mountain Dew thing.

[Manny]

Right. Polar. Polar opposite of what we're just talking about now is J.D. vance. He's like, trying to force.

[Devin]

The worst part about it is that, like, it sounds like that's a joke. He thought about ahead of time.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Devin]

You know.

[Manny]

Oh, it was totally test. Like someone wrote that. Someone on his team.

[Mike Birbiglia]

You got this one, jd.

[Devin]

It wasn't like he was just. They're gonna. It's like. It's like it felt like that was the second or third time he told that joke.

[Noah]

Yeah, exactly.

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah.

[Manny]

Like I said in that. In that conversation, you know, the most glaring part of it is that the crowd wants you to be successful here. The fact that they didn't have any kind of a reaction, well, you can.

[Devin]

See everyone started being like, wait, what?

[Noah]

Yeah. Are we supposed to.

[Manny]

They had to think. They're like, wait, what is that?

[Devin]

Mountain Dew. They're like, saying it in their head. Mountain Dew diet. Mountain Dew.

[Manny]

Does it sound like something racist?

[Mike Birbiglia]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Manny]

No such thing as a production of Kaleidoscope content. Our executive producers are Kate Osborne and Mangesh Hatikador. The show is created by Manny Fadal, Noah Friedman and Devin Joseph. The theme and credit song is by me, Manny, and the mixing is done by Steve Bone. Special thanks to our guests, Dr. Mark Rolfe from the Universe University of New South Wales, and Mike Birbiglia. Definitely check out his show. Mike Birbiglia is working it out everywhere you listen to podcasts. Be sure to check out our substack at Nosuchthing show and leave us five stars if you like what you've heard. See you next time.

[Mike Birbiglia]

No, no, no, no. No such thing.

[Evan Ratliff]

Hi, Kyle, could you draw up a quick document with the basic business plan? Just one page as a Google Doc and send me the link? Thanks.

[Manny]

Hey, just finished drawing up that quick one page business plan for you. Here's the link.

[Evan Ratliff]

But there was no link. There was no business plan. I hadn't programmed Kyle to be able to do that yet. I'm Evan Ratliff here with the story of entrepreneurship in the AI age. Listen as I attempt to build a real startup run by fake people. Check out the second season of my podcast Shell Game on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.