Why are there so many twin films?

Summary

NO SUCH THING – "Why are there so many twin films?"
Podcast Host: Kaleidoscope
Episode Air Date: March 4, 2026
Guests: Chris and Lizzy (What Went Wrong Podcast)

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Episode Overview

This episode investigates the recurring phenomenon of “twin films”—pairs of movies with suspiciously similar plots released around the same time. Manny, Noah, and Devin, friends and pop culture obsessives, kick off with a lively debate (featuring deep nostalgia and plenty of side tangents) before bringing in Chris and Lizzy from the What Went Wrong podcast for an industry-insider perspective. Together, they unpack the mechanics, myths, and cultural fascinations behind Hollywood's uncanny habit of releasing "movie doubles."

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What Exactly Is a "Twin Film?" (02:05–05:20)

• Definition: Twin films are pairs of movies with strikingly similar premises that are released within a year of each other. There are occasional outliers regarding plot similarity or timing.
  • Manny: "We're talking about a pair of movies that have extraordinarily similar premises and that release within a year of each other." (02:15)
• Sometimes both films are hits (e.g., Finding Nemo and Shark Tale); other times, one overshadows the other (e.g., Madagascar vs The Wild).

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Classic Twin Film Examples & Debate (03:00–17:05)

Widely-Known Examples

• Finding Nemo (2003) / Shark Tale (2004): Both animated underwater adventures, with Nemo the clear cultural winner.
• Madagascar (2005) / The Wild (2006): Nearly identical zoo animal escape plots, but few even recall The Wild.
  • Manny: "There was a Disney movie called The Wild... same plot—animals from Central Park Zoo end up in Africa... Have you ever heard of this movie?" (04:15)
• Armageddon (1998) / Deep Impact (1998): The most-cited example—asteroid disaster films, one remembered as a big loud blockbuster, the other as smarter, more grounded.
• No Strings Attached (2011) / Friends With Benefits (2011): Romcoms about casual relationships, starring actors with real-life connections.

Lesser-Known/Genre Examples

• Dante's Peak (1997) / Volcano (1997): Competing volcano disaster films.
• Olympus Has Fallen (2013) / White House Down (2013): Action thrillers centered on an attack on the White House, both featuring Black presidents.
• A Bug’s Life (1998) / Antz (1998): Animated ant revolution stories, subject of extended debate among the hosts.

Bug's Life vs. Antz – The Great Debate

• Devin: Team Bug’s Life—visually memorable, emotionally resonant, works for kids and adults.
  • "I had remembered scenes from A Bug's Life, which is crazy... Those scenes that stay with you, that change the way you view the world." (12:08)
• Noah & Manny: Team Antz—quirkier, darker, more “adult” humor and a star-studded cast.
  • Noah: "It really is a proper war movie. There's nods to Apocalypse Now... as an adult watching this, it's more interesting to watch today." (15:25-15:42)

Key Quote:
Devin: "When we watched Ants, it felt like some weird Woody Allen nightmare... divorced dad energy." (12:23)

Noah: "I'm just. I like more mature sorts of things. I like a PG movie, if I can get one...the neurotic witticisms of the Woody Allen-esque character." (14:59–16:27)

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Industry Expert Segment: Chris & Lizzy from "What Went Wrong" (19:18–50:28)

First, Which Ant Movie Wins? (19:39–21:16)

• Chris & Lizzy: Both strongly favor A Bug’s Life—more appropriate for kids, less creepy/“problematic” casting, and more heart.
  • Lizzy: "I literally screamed at the TV...the human teeth. It's the most horrible ants..." (21:11)
  • Chris: "I appreciate Antz as the manifestation of Jeffrey Katzenberg in a movie, but I still prefer A Bug's Life." (20:15)

Was There Actual IP Theft? The Real-World History (21:18–25:25)

• Background: DreamWorks head Jeffrey Katzenberg and Pixar's John Lasseter had a fraught history. After acrimoniously leaving Disney, Katzenberg is alleged to have “borrowed” the ants premise from Pixar.
• Technical Constraints: Both studios were working within the limits of CGI in the 1990s (shiny surfaces, clonable models made bugs a logical character choice).
  • Chris: "There were technological limitations in place...only so many types of characters you can do at this point." (24:21–25:25)
• Katzenberg’s Defense: He claims he’d pitched an “army ants” concept years earlier. Other studios reportedly had bug movies in development too.

Armageddon vs Deep Impact—The Other Classic Pair (25:25–35:02)

• Both disaster blockbusters about stopping a world-ending asteroid. Armageddon = wild spectacle, Deep Impact = attempted realism.
  • Lizzy: "I loved Deep Impact when I was a kid. This is the smart movie...I rewatched it and I was like, God, I'm bored. I miss Armageddon...it's just insane. I love it." (26:13–26:40)
• Both movies used the same basic premise (asteroid must be blown up to save Earth), but Deep Impact used astronauts, Armageddon sent oil drillers.
• Origins entwined: Unverified but plausible story that a rival studio exec learned of Deep Impact’s premise over lunch, and greenlit Armageddon fast to compete. (32:00–34:09)

Timestamps & Notable Quotes

• [29:15] Manny: "One of the movies just becomes way more popular and famous than the other one."
• [32:48] Lizzy: "Bruce [Joel Rubin] explains what he's working on...he, you know, gives the full elevator pitch and more for Deep Impact. And then, according to Bruce, the President is taking notes, as he's telling him, taking notes during the lunch—which at that point, you should probably stop talking."

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Why Do Twin Films Happen? (40:10–41:50)

The Three Main Theories:

1. IP Theft or Industry Espionage: Studios copy competitors, especially when ideas change hands or execs have inside info.
2. Zeitgeist: Real-world news, anniversaries, or cultural anxieties produce multiple similar projects. E.g., comets discovered by NASA fueled asteroid films.
3. Tech Advances/Constraints: New technologies or limitations (like early CGI favoring shiny bugs) push studios toward similar stories.

Lizzy:
"It's so tempting to think you stole my idea...But there is kind of a collective unconscious pool I think we're always pulling from. And I do think that's where twin films come from." (40:48–41:50)

Chris:
"Hollywood is very reactionary...the big picture ideas that we're coming to are very universal, I think." (42:09–43:21)

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Mockbusters, Audience Demand, and the Business Side (37:51–40:10)

• A/B Features: Historically, TV movies or "mockbusters" (low-budget, knock-off versions) would try to catch a slice of the box office wave.
• Modern Examples: Direct-to-video films mirroring blockbusters for accidental rentals or quick profits.
• Rarity of True Twins: Simultaneous wide-release blockbusters on similar topics are rare, since most studios try to avoid direct competition.

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The Pixar vs DreamWorks Formula (45:45–50:24)

• Why Pixar Wins Hearts:
  • Pixar films are emotionally rich, complex in their depiction of relationships and personal growth despite child-friendly constraints.
    • Lizzy: "In making something that is easier for children to relate to, but still very smart, they actually explore something that, to me, has a bit more depth to it...you don't. You know, Woody is the main character...he's a great guy until he's confronted with someone who could potentially usurp his position..." (46:52–47:54)
  • A Bug’s Life is cited for tackling issues like bullying, self-worth, gender roles, and body image more gently and memorably than its DreamWorks peer.
• DreamWorks’ Quirkiness:
  • Caricatured voice acting and adult in-jokes (sometimes at odds with genre expectations).
• Memorable Quote:
  • Chris: "If you're a Pixar film, it has to work for children and adults in equal measure. And like Lizzie's saying, that's a hard target to hit." (49:03)

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Conclusion & Takeaways

• Twin films aren't as frequent as they seem, given all the opportunities for copycat ideas in the industry.
• The phenomenon is driven by a mix of competitive copying, shared cultural concerns, technical advances, and opportunistic business practices.
• Ultimately, the differences in execution—tone, style, storytelling—show that the “how” matters as much as the “what.”
  • Lizzy: "It's not about the story or the idea, it's how you tell it...they are individually enjoyable. And I like when studios plow ahead with this." (36:43)

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Important Timestamps

• 02:05–05:20: Defining and naming classic twin films
• 08:40–17:05: Bug’s Life vs. Antz: hosts debate
• 19:18–25:25: Industry history, IP theft allegations
• 25:38–35:02: Armageddon vs. Deep Impact segment
• 40:10–41:50: Why do twin films happen?
• 45:45–50:24: Pixar vs. DreamWorks in animated “twin” battles

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Notable Quotes

• Devin: “The thing that I love about A Bug’s Life is it has so many memorable scenes…Those scenes that stay with you, that change the way you view the world.” (12:08)
• Lizzy: “I literally screamed at the TV…they’re human teeth! It’s the most horrible Ants.” (21:11)
• Chris: “The big picture ideas that we're coming to are very universal, I think.” (43:21)
• Lizzy: “It’s not about the story or the idea, it’s how you tell it.” (36:43)

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Final Thoughts

"Why Are There So Many Twin Films?" dives into Hollywood's strange synchronicity, balancing humor, industry anecdotes, and smart cultural observations. Whether you’re a cinephile or pop-culture skeptic, you’ll come away entertained and equipped to spot the next batch of twin films—though you won’t always know which will come out on top.

Transcript

[Manny]

I'm Manny. I'm Noah.

[Devin]

This is Devin.

[Manny]

And this is no Such Thing. The show where we settle our dumb arguments. And yours. By actually doing the research on today's episode, we're getting to the bottom of the twin film phenomenon. There's no. No such thing.

[Chris]

No such thing. No such thing.

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[Lizzy]

Hi, you're listening to Meditating with Jan from Toyota. Soften your focus and visualize yourself off roading in a Tacoma. Now engage your senses.

[iHeart Advertising Voice]

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[Lizzy]

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[Chris]

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[Lizzy]

And go from dreaming it to driving it today.

[Toyota Dealer Voice]

Dealer inventory may vary or participating. Toyota dealer for details. Event ends March 31st. Toyota, let's go places.

[Manny]

Okay, we're here to talk about twin films and why they happen so frequently. But first, obviously, we have to know what a twin film is.

[Devin]

Yeah.

[Manny]

So we're talking about a pair of movies that have extraordinarily similar premises.

[Devin]

I like that.

[Noah]

I like that pronunciation, too.

[Manny]

And that release within a year of each other.

[Chris]

There.

[Manny]

There are some outliers with this. Like there are some twin films that come out more than a year apart. And there are some outliers that have to do with the plot as well. Like there are some movies that seem similar at first, but then when you watch them, they're not really that similar. We're. We're dealing with that right now with Guo Del Toro's Frankenstein in this movie coming out next year from Maggie Gyllenhaal. I think it's called the Bride. Sometimes both of the twin films are popular, like Finding Nemo and A Shark's Tale.

[Devin]

Oh, yeah, wow, I forgot about Sharks Tale. I was a Finding Nemo Home. So we didn't. We didn't watch no Sharks Tale.

[Manny]

Finding Nemo was definitely, I think, the more popular one. Yeah, but, you know, Shark Tal was. Shark Tale was a classic, like Substitute Teacher.

[Noah]

Yeah, that's like. I remember renting that, I think renting the DVD or something.

[Devin]

Yeah, you weren't going to theaters for

[Noah]

that one, but, you know, Finding Nemo. We had the tape.

[Manny]

Yeah, yeah.

[Noah]

You own that?

[Manny]

And Will Smith delivers a master class in Shark Tale.

[Devin]

And my man Sykes has just begged me not to murderize all y' all up in here. All right? Now, I might listen to him, but

[Toyota Dealer Voice]

then again, I might not.

[Devin]

And that depends on the individual behavior of all the individuals in here individually.

[Manny]

In other instances, one twin film is just way more popular than the other one to the. To the point where you might not have even heard of the other ones. So one example is Madagascar we all know and love.

[Devin]

Yeah.

[Manny]

There was a Disney movie that came out the same year called the Wild, which was the same plot. Animals from the Central Park Zoo end up in Africa. Oh. And it had, like. I had, like, a real cast.

[Devin]

The Wild.

[Manny]

Have you ever heard of this movie? No. No.

[Noah]

I need to see it. Let me see some imagery.

[Manny]

It just. It looks like a generic, like a less stylized version of Madagascar, but in the cast we had Kiefer Sutherland, Eddie Izard, Richard Kind was in there, William Shatner. It's like the same animals, too. There's a giraffe.

[Devin]

Who's the zebra?

[Manny]

There's no zebra. There's a giraffe in this one. Anyway, I thought that was interesting.

[Noah]

There's a giraffe.

[Manny]

Who would have thought making a zoo

[Devin]

movie would have a giraffe and a line is all.

[Manny]

Yeah, but of course, the most referred to example of twin films is, of course, Armageddon and Deep Impact. We're going to save that one for later when we talk to the. What went wrong, folks? But from my recollection, I think, like, Armageddon was like, the big, dumb, loud one. And Deep Impact was supposed to be the higher brow, smartly written one. We'll see if that holds up. But before we get into, like, why exactly. Twin films happen so regularly with so much frequency. What are some other ones that I'm missing? Like, what are some big twin films?

[Devin]

There was the, like, rom coms of no Strings Attached.

[Manny]

Oh, yeah.

[Devin]

And then Friends With Benefits.

[Manny]

That's right.

[Movie Scene Actor Voice]

I'm a doctor. I work 80 hours a week. I need someone who's going to be in my bed at 2am who I don't have to eat breakfast with.

[Lizzy]

I'm emotionally unavailable.

[Movie Scene Actor Voice]

I'm emotionally damaged.

[Devin]

You know what I'm saying?

[Movie Scene Actor Voice]

No emotions, just sex.

[Devin]

Those came out around the same time around, you know, like friends or love interests or are they.

[Manny]

Who are the two?

[Devin]

It was Aston Kutcher and who's this?

[Manny]

Oh, Natalie Portman.

[Devin]

Natalie Portman.

[Manny]

And then the other one was Mila Kunis and Timberlake. And that's funny because Ashton Kutcher is married to Mila Kunis. They should have just had them in the same movie.

[Devin]

Yeah. I don't know if they were married at the time. I don't think they were.

[Noah]

No, probably not.

[Devin]

But they were on that 70s show together, which is how they initially met.

[Manny]

Since then. Oh, you're right. I'm wrong about someone.

[Noah]

Someone looked this up.

[Manny]

Jamie.

[Chris]

Not.

[Manny]

Not now. Yeah. What are some other ones? Like, one I remember is Dante's Peak.

[Devin]

Yeah.

[Noah]

I was just thinking that in the

[Toyota Dealer Voice]

town of Dante's Peak, a volcano is turning nature into a nightmare, which was

[Manny]

a Pierce Brosnan like, disaster movie that takes place in the Pacific Northwest. You know, they're escaping from a volcanic. A volcanic eruption. And this was an example of one that was way more popular than the other one, I think, because I hadn't even known about this movie Volcano with Tommy Lee Jones in a city where

[Toyota Dealer Voice]

anything can happen on April 25.

[Manny]

It will same year or within a year of each other. And same exact plot, but just. I had not heard of that one. Have you guys heard of Volcano?

[Noah]

Yeah, but definitely Dante's Peak was, like, always on, like.

[Manny]

Yeah, tbs.

[Noah]

Yeah, TBS are one of those, like, constantly.

[Manny]

Another classic one that's more recent is Olympus has fallen. White House down.

[Devin]

Yeah, we're talking about the safety of the President of the United States.

[Chris]

We're talking about a hell of a lot more than that, sir.

[Manny]

Which is funny because they also both have black presidents in them.

[Noah]

Hey, what's funny about.

[Devin]

We had a run, all right? People forget there's been one.

[Manny]

We did have one.

[Noah]

It made sense.

[Lizzy]

Yes.

[Manny]

I think Morgan Freeman is the president and one of them. And Jamie Foxx is the president in the other. I'm pretty sure, right?

[Noah]

Oh, whichever one that is, I need to see.

[Devin]

Yeah. That's crazy.

[Noah]

That's my president right there.

[Devin]

That's like. He's young.

[Manny]

So Olympus has fallen. Is the Gerard Butler one.

[Devin]

Yeah.

[Chris]

Okay.

[Noah]

And Channing Tatum's in White House down,

[Manny]

I think so White House down will be Channing Tatum and Jamie Foxx is

[Noah]

Jamie Foxx the president, or is he just.

[Manny]

Yeah, President James Sawyer.

[Noah]

Oh, wow.

[Manny]

And before any Olympus has fallen heads send me angry emails. I should clarify that Morgan Freeman's character is only technically acting president. The elected president is Aaron Eckert. But of course, there is one pair of twin films that the three of us have spent a lot of time debating way back, starting in 2016. And that is A Bug's life for

[Toyota Dealer Voice]

the colony and for oppressed bugs everywhere versus ants. He's willing to live for the colony, to fight for the colony, to die for the colony.

[Chris]

This guy is crazy.

[Manny]

Now, the reason we've been debating this is that Noah and I feel like Ants is the obvious better movie and Devin thinks that we're crazy.

[Devin]

Yeah, of course.

[Manny]

And I actually want to break the differences between these movies down for the listeners, because I think understanding the differences between these movies might actually be useful for us in terms of trying to figure out why twin films happen in the first place. So let's start with the plot. Both movies are about ants that spark a revolution of sorts against their oppressors. In A Bug's Life, the oppressors are grasshoppers. Evil grasshoppers. They're not really dynamic, they're just evil. They just come and bully and eat everything.

[Toyota Dealer Voice]

So where is it?

[Manny]

Where's my food? It's a little more interesting in Ants. The ants are in a war with these termites that are encroaching on their territory. But the war, General, for the ants is like sending the ants that are loyal to the queen off to war on a suicide mission so that he and the remaining ants can enact a coup d'. Etat.

[Chris]

Attack a termite colony, sir, that's suicide.

[Toyota Dealer Voice]

Exactly. You have the list I asked for?

[Chris]

Yes, General. These are the units loyal to the queen.

[Manny]

So, Devin, why don't you tell us a little bit about why you're wrong to think that A Bug's Life is better and more interesting than that plot.

[Devin]

Well, first of all, both of these are supposed to be kids movies.

[Manny]

That's true. Allegedly.

[Devin]

Okay, so A Bug's Life is Pixar Universe. Basically, A Bug's Life looks like. I don't know if there is some sort of, like, Easter egg. It looks like it's a Toy Story. Yeah, like world.

[Manny]

That style.

[Devin]

Very similar style. If you zoom in on one of Andy's toys in the grass somewhere and you saw A Bug's Life happening, you'd like this. Makes sense.

[iHeart Advertising Voice]

Wow.

[Manny]

Yes, do that.

[Devin]

So Toy Story iconic. A Bug's Life iconic. Okay. They Live in the same world.

[Chris]

Just.

[Devin]

Just remember that. The thing that I love about A Bug's Life is it has so many memorable scenes. We did a back to back watching of A Bug's Life and Ants. You know, I had not watched this film since, I don't know, I was a child a long time ago.

[Manny]

That tracks.

[Devin]

And I had remembered scenes from A Bug's Life, which is crazy.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Devin]

All these years is not something that really comes up, you know, in pop culture or anything that you're like, you know, I'm not. And I was like, oh, my God. I remember the rain. Specifically that rain scene where the ants are running for their lives because the raindrops are like, the big droplets.

[Manny]

Yep.

[Devin]

And it is a thing that, like, from my childhood to now, I thought about and I didn't realize that I was thinking about it because of A Bug's Life. When it rains and I'm outside and I see bugs, I thought like, oh, shoot, it's about to go down.

[Manny]

Yeah.

[Devin]

And then when I just watched it more recently, I was like, oh, it's because of A Bug's Life. And that, I think, is when you think of childhood movies.

[Noah]

Yeah.

[Devin]

Those scenes that stay with you that change the way you view the world.

[Noah]

Wow.

[Devin]

Okay.

[Manny]

This is beautiful.

[Devin]

That is why we make films.

[Noah]

That's why we make children's films.

[Devin]

And when we watched Ants, it felt like some weird Woody Allen nightmare. Okay.

[Manny]

Yeah. Well, it was a weird nightmare.

[Devin]

It's very moody. It's just like, I'm like, what? This is not for kids. This feels like some adult was going through something and they're forcing their kid to sit down and watch this. It's like, it feels like divorced dad energy.

[Manny]

A Bug's Life is certainly more colorful and easier on the eyes. And it's funny.

[Devin]

A Bug's Life is hilarious scene to seeing every line is a joke. I'm watching ants. I'm like, what? Nothing. It really is not funny. It's kind of depressing and sad.

[Noah]

It's funny because there's an aunt, there's ptsd.

[Manny]

It's. That's.

[Noah]

It's funny.

[Manny]

It's kind of macabre.

[Noah]

You know, it's.

[Manny]

It's funny that the ants have trauma.

[Devin]

I'm not. I'm sorry. I don't think trauma's funny. But, you know, some of us. Some of us can laugh at it, I guess.

[Manny]

So let's go cast for cast. Here you got Kevin Spacey, obviously, as the villain Hopper.

[Devin]

See, playing the proper role.

[Chris]

Yeah. Kev.

[Devin]

Kevin Spacey, the villain, a bad guy playing. It's actually great casting if you think about it.

[Manny]

Yeah, but this is way before he was.

[Devin]

Hey, they knew there's something dark in him.

[Manny]

Yeah. Julia Louis Dreyfus plays Atta.

[Devin]

Yeah. The love interest.

[Manny]

Hayden Penny Tear is Dot, the. I think, the little girl. Aunt.

[Devin]

Yeah.

[Manny]

Richard Kind. You've got Dennis Leary. So, you know, it's pretty stacked cast, but let's look at Ants because Ants has some hitters in the cast. Woody Allen, obviously.

[Devin]

Woody Allen.

[Noah]

It's a voice. Yeah, Your boy, Kevin Spacey.

[Chris]

No problem. Okay.

[Manny]

We don't need to go there. Both films have problematic actors in them.

[Noah]

They're getting a paycheck.

[Manny]

This is a wash. Yeah. They cancel each other out. Gene Hackman is Mandible, who I believe is like the war general Rip. Sharon Stone is Bala. You got Dan Aykroyd. You've got Danny Glover. Jennifer Lopez plays Azteca. Sylvester Stallone. I mean, this is nuts. Christopher Walken, Jim Cummings, walking.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Manny]

I'm gonna say that the Ants cast edges out the bugs. Live cast. In terms of, you know, real hitters.

[Devin]

If you just want to put names on the board, sure.

[Noah]

Yeah. Who's a better actor in the world?

[Devin]

Okay. But can you name what half of these people did in the movie?

[Noah]

Gene Hackman is Mandible.

[Devin]

Jennifer Lopez was.

[Manny]

Well, you know, that's true. I don't have a. I don't have an argument against that.

[Noah]

Sly Stallone is in there as a character that looks like him. I remember this. And I believe Chris Walken, too, is kind of.

[Manny]

Yeah, they do.

[Noah]

That's what Shark Tail did, too, which I think all animated movies should do that.

[Manny]

Noah, could you talk a little bit about why you like ants? The film better than A Bug's Life?

[Noah]

Yeah, I'm just. I like more mature sorts of things. I like a PG movie, if I can get one. You know, I like kind of edgy humor like that. So, you know, I was, you know, kind of refreshing myself on ants. And, you know, it's. It really is a proper war movie. There's nods to Apocalypse Now. There's. There was one scene that really stood out to me, especially on our rewatch, was there's this huge, real pretty serious battle scene. And then the leader, he's decapitated, essentially.

[Manny]

Yes, I remember this.

[Toyota Dealer Voice]

Don't make my mistake, kid.

[Chris]

Don't follow orders your whole life.

[Toyota Dealer Voice]

Think for yourself.

[Noah]

Anyway, the bodyless head is, you know, kind of giving his final words of

[Manny]

like, whoa, this is.

[Noah]

This is wild.

[Manny]

He Got some dark movie.

[Noah]

Yeah, it's just a little for me as a adult watching this, not sharing it with kids. It's more interesting to watch today. I'll grant I didn't really watch Bugs Life as a kid. I watched it, but it was never like on rotation for me for whatever reason. So I. It didn't imprint the way where it's like these certain little scenes.

[Devin]

You didn't have a good time on a rewatch.

[Noah]

Did I say that? Did I say that? I did not say that. You know, I enjoyed watching both of

[Manny]

them, to be clear. Yeah, I like.

[Lizzy]

I'm picking.

[Noah]

We're picking one.

[Manny]

That's the prompt. I simply enjoy the more interesting.

[Noah]

We're weighing the pros and cons and

[Devin]

I like you had more fun watching ants.

[Noah]

There's a little bit more to.

[Manny]

I guess they kind of have different goals. That's what's tough about this is despite the fact that they're twin films, they're not necessarily one for one. They're not so easy to compare.

[Noah]

And I like the kind of ugly, garish art style of ants. Yeah, they looked like something to look at. And I appreciate the kind of neurotic witticisms of, you know, the Woody Allen esque character.

[Manny]

Yeah, I think the very New York. The humor was really interesting. But that's not to say I disliked A Bug's Life. I mean, it's definitely.

[Devin]

I know you. I know you two didn't dislike it because y' all were cracking up.

[Noah]

Okay.

[Devin]

Giggling the whole time again. We didn't. We didn't say. Not much being said.

[Noah]

Yeah, we're focusing on kind of that

[Manny]

sitting with it when we're watching ants, taking notes.

[Devin]

I watch movies to be entertained. Okay.

[Manny]

You can do both.

[Noah]

Ideally. You get both.

[Devin]

Ideally.

[Manny]

Okay, so now we know what a twin film is, and we've been through many, many examples. After the break, we're going to chat with the hosts of the what Went Wrong Podcast, a show about the film industry, and see if we can get their thoughts on why twin films happen so regularly in the first place.

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[Lizzy]

like in the black community.

[Keep It Positive Sweetie Podcast Voice]

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[Devin]

You have to work on it every day.

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[Manny]

All right, we're now joined by Lizzy and Chris from the popular what Went Wrong podcast. Thank you guys for joining us.

[Chris]

Thank you so much for having us. It's an honor to be here. You guys are so much fancier than us. You have mugs.

[Manny]

Oh, yeah.

[Chris]

I'm in a closet. My wife's baby. Yeah, we try.

[Manny]

We try. Before you guys joined us, we were talking about this phenomenon of twin films. We had just ended a rigorous debate about whether Bug's Life or Ants is the better film. Noah and I are on the ants on Team Ants and Devin is Team A Bug's Life. I'm just curious what your guys take are.

[Chris]

Lizzy, you have a strong opinion.

[Lizzy]

Out of here, you two, with your ants defending. I am stunned. I'm stunned. I'm very interested to. I can't wait to hear what your argument was for both sides. But now I'm mad. 100% bug's life.

[Chris]

I would also lean A Bug's Life, although not as hard as Lizzie. I appreciate ants as the manifestation of Jeffrey Katzenberg in a movie, but I, I still prefer, I think overall, A Bug's Life. But I have kids that age. Like, I would show my daughter A Bug's Life. I probably wouldn't show her ants at this point.

[Manny]

I agree with that.

[Devin]

It's an enjoyable film. It's so much fun. So memorable.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Devin]

And it feels like, you know, I

[Chris]

don't have to think about Woody Allen marrying his stepdaughter while I'm watching it, you know?

[Devin]

Exactly.

[Chris]

It's just an easier watch.

[Manny]

You do have. You do have to think about Kevin Spacey when he's the bad guy.

[Chris]

Exactly.

[Devin]

Thank you.

[Chris]

I don't know. That's right.

[Devin]

He's playing the right role.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Lizzy]

I don't need Woody Allen as the romantic lead. And you want to know what my biggest problem with ants was that I literally screamed at the TV when I was rewatching it for this episode. They're human teeth. It's the most horrible antis.

[Devin]

So creepy.

[Lizzy]

Horrible. When he's chewing on the plastic, I was like, this is it. I'm done.

[Devin]

Yes.

[Manny]

So Chris and Lizzie, when it comes to ants and A Bug's Life coming out at the same time, is it true that there was an alleged intellectual property theft? Can you tell us a little bit about that?

[Chris]

Well, my understanding is. So development on A Bug's Life began before development on Ants. And so John Lasseter was the director of A Bug's Life. It was written by Andrew Stanton. Joe Ranft, who actually does the voice of Heimlich in the movie, was co story creator with those two. And this was a well known project within the animation community. And I have a slightly different thesis as to why these two movies are both around bugs. Lizzie talked about Toy Story on our podcast. And one of the reasons that they chose toys was because highly reflective surfaces as a texture are a lot easier to animate at this point in the technology's maturation process. In the mid-1990s, it's really hard to do hair. This is why Monsters Inc. And Shrek don't come until the early 2000s. A Bug's Life makes a lot of sense because. Okay, well, we can animate bugs, right? They have these. They're exoskeletons, they're shiny. This makes sense. Also, it's ants. We can make one model and then we can clone it a bunch of times. And it's like Andy and all his friends at the birthday party in Toy Story. So the allegations were that Lasseter and Katzenberg had more unfriendly terms. Katzenberg acrimoniously left Disney. He felt he had been owed a higher position by by then CEO Michael Eisner. He was looked over after. Lizzie, remind David Wells or Frank Wells. I can never remember.

[Lizzy]

Oh, man. I want to say it's Frank Wells, but let me double check. He was the head of Disney, who I'M sure you guys know about this, but he died unexpectedly in a helicopter car crash. It's Frank Wells.

[Chris]

Oh, Frank Wells. Yeah.

[Lizzy]

And it's pretty wild because, you know, we talked about this in Toy Story, but this guy dies in a helicopter crash, and then Jeffrey Katzenberg is like, oh, he's dead. Is it my turn? Is it my turn now? When do I get the.

[Chris]

What's up with the promotion? Let's get this going.

[Manny]

Oh, my God.

[Chris]

Katzenberg leaves. He ends up suing Disney for an unpaid bonus of well over $100 million. He also was on, you know, Michael ovitz, formerly of CAA, is coming in. It's a very messy time. DreamWorks gets built, and obviously Pixar starts working with Disney for their distribution of Toy Story and then A Bug's Life. And so the accusation is that. That Katzenberg stole the idea for A Bug's Life or Ants from A Bug's Life. After having soundboard conversations with Lasseter, who felt that he could trust Katzenberg on Katzenberg's side, my understanding is he has asserted, although I've heard also that he has kind of admitted as much, that he may have taken this idea from Lasseter. He has asserted that there was a pitch for a movie called army ants back in 1988 while he was at Disney Animation that was about worker ant trying to bestow the benefits of individuality upon their colony that went nowhere. And that that's kind of where the idea originated. And then he, you know, picked it up. My guess, my best guess, and you guys can tell me, like, I don't know if we know the truth, but my best guess is there are technological limitations in place and there's only so many types of characters that you can do at this point in time. And Toy Story had already come out, and I. I think Toy Soldiers is maybe around this time as well. And so, like, DreamWorks is this upstart. We probably don't want to do toys. Okay, we'll do Bugs. And we could probably come close to doing Bugs. Pixar's doing Bugs. They just bought pdi. I'd also heard that PDI Pacific Data Imaging had a Bugs treatment in the works as well that was also different than A Bug's Life. So again, my instinct, and this could come to my big unifying theory about twin films, is that maybe Katzenberg stole it or maybe he was mulling on this and he saw Pixar as proof that this was a good direction for DreamWorks to go.

[Manny]

Before we get your guys thoughts and Theories about why twin films kind of occur so regularly, or at least they seem to occur so regularly. I wanted to talk a little bit about Armageddon.

[Chris]

Hitting the rock from the outside won't do the job.

[Toyota Dealer Voice]

So we nuke this thing from the inside?

[Manny]

Yes.

[Devin]

How?

[Manny]

We drill.

[Chris]

We bring in the world's best deep core driller.

[Manny]

And Deep Impact, two comets were discovered

[Devin]

that are on a collision course with Earth.

[Chris]

Oh, my God.

[Manny]

I haven't seen those movies in a very long time, but from what I recall, I want to see if this is accurate. Armageddon is kind of like the big, dumb blockbuster, and Deep Impact is a slightly more, slightly smarter, higher brow disaster film. Is that right? Am I making that up?

[Lizzy]

No, no, you're right. But here's what's funny.

[Chris]

They're closer than we remember.

[Lizzy]

They are closer. And honestly. So we did this for our live show, which was a blast. We did these two movies, and I went into it remembering the same thing. I loved Deep Impact when I was a kid. And I was like, this is the smart movie. This is the movie that cares about science. And I can't wait to rewatch this. And I rewatched it and I was like, God, I'm bored. I miss Armageddon. And you watch Armageddon and it's just insane. It's completely insane. I love it.

[Manny]

Can you tell us about the. The similarities and the differences between these two movies?

[Lizzy]

Sure. So you, you know, you have an asteroid that is hurtling towards Earth and the only way to get rid of it is to blow it up. And then from there, from there it just. The paths diverge in the wood and.

[Chris]

But the, the how they're going to deal with it is the same.

[Lizzy]

Yeah, they're gonna blow it up. They're gonna blow it up.

[Chris]

But by drilling and sticking a nuke in the hole.

[Lizzy]

Right. And with Deep Impact, it makes like a decent amount of sense how they're gonna go about this. They're gonna use astronauts, which, you know, they're going to space, so that tracks. And then you have Armageddon, where.

[Chris]

This is where Lizzie and I defer in our opinions. By the way, this is the good point.

[Lizzy]

This thinks Armageddon's a good idea. You have Armageddon where Bruce Willis walks in to Billy Bob Thornton at NASA and he's like, I believe the line is something along the lines of, you

[Chris]

know, you want to send these boys into space, fine, sure, they'll make good astronauts. They don't know jack about drilling. They don't know jack about drilling. I've been drilling for 40 years. And then he basically says, look, you need less astronauts, more oil drillers. And that actually they send like one

[Lizzy]

William Fichner into space and then the rest are all oil drillers. And you know what? They do it, guys. They get it done.

[Chris]

So they're very similar in a lot of ways. They're very structurally different. What's interesting is obviously Armageddon presents itself as an action movie. Deep Impact is effectively a soap opera. It's a melodrama at the end of the day, but it is interesting. Both were very successful. Armageddon was more successful at the box office ultimately. And I don't know if you guys came across this advice. Some executive at one point said, you know, when you're dealing with a twin film situation, the key is to come out first. But the more I looked into it, I don't think that's really the case. The key is if you're the lesser of the two films. Come out first.

[Devin]

Yeah, then come out first.

[Chris]

What's more important? Meaning, like, if you don't have the star power, if you don't think you have the marketing punch, maybe you don't think your movie's as good, you should probably land first. That might be good advice.

[Lizzy]

You know, as I was watching Ants in a Bug's Life and also thinking about Deep Impact in Armageddon and so many of these other twin films, it does seem to me that the dichotomy is often one of them. As you explained this, Manny, one of them is set up as like, this is the smart movie. Like, this is the one for all the smart people. And the other one's like, this is the big dumb one, this is the big dumb fun one. And that seems to be true kind of across a lot of these. And I just wonder why, like, is that just how they start to differentiate them as they realize that they're on parallel paths? But I don't know. I'm curious what you guys think.

[Manny]

It's a great question, especially thinking about some of the other popular twin films. Examples like we were talking earlier about Dante's Peak versus Volcano and talking about how like in some of these instances, one of the movie just becomes way more popular and famous than the other one. I actually hadn't heard of Volcano until I was researching twin films movies. But it's not like a no name movie like Tommy Lee Jones is the star of it. So I haven't seen Volcano. I don't know if that one is, is branded or marketed as Like a dumber or.

[Lizzy]

Okay, is it as dumb as Dante's Peak?

[Chris]

It's dumber in the sense that Dante's Peak is making an attempt to model itself after the eruption of Mount St. Helens. And volcano is. There's a volcano in la. This is crazy.

[Lizzy]

Yeah.

[Manny]

Where did that come from?

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Manny]

So, wait, what is the story behind Armageddon and Deep Impact? How did those come out at the same time?

[Chris]

Well, this one's really interesting. A lot of twin films are disaster films, not surprisingly. And, you know Hollywood, the peak of disaster films in Hollywood was the 1970s, right? You had airport, exclamation point in 1970, which shockingly made a ton of money. Things kind of hit their zenith with Towering Inferno, which actually was competing twin films that came together from two different studios. Irwin Allen was the producer behind a lot of these big, big disaster movies. And they were really an exploration of the peak of what could be done with modern special effect miniatures, incredible stage builds, et cetera, that tails off at the end of the 1970s. You have some attempts at eco horror like Swarm and stuff like that. And then we get into action blockbusters of the 80s. But then you have a new technological revolution with Jurassic park in the early 1990s, and all of a sudden we have all these new tools in our toolbox that we can play with. And so then you get this new renaissance of disaster films. Twister with Jan de Bont, Titanic, for example, and obviously Deep Impact in Armageddon. And so. So what's interesting is one of the films has its roots in the 1970s. Deep Impact is Zanuckin Brown, who had produced Jaws and a number of other films. And they were going to do an adaptation of When Worlds Collide, which was a very famous book about another planet hitting Earth. And I think the problem was development kind of spiraled until the disaster film renaissance had run its course. At the end of the 70s, they put the script in a drawer. Early 90s, they pull the script out of the drawer. They kind of stopped working together, but they say, hey, we're gonna come back for one last hurrah. They take it to Steven Spielberg at DreamWorks, who says, Great, I'm gonna direct this. And we have all these brand new technological tools. He's just done Jurassic Park. Like, we can actually show an asteroid hitting the Earth. And then, Lizzy, maybe you can talk a little bit about how this idea may have found its way to rival Studio Disney in the mid-1990s.

[Lizzy]

This is another DreamWorks and Disney rivalry across these two movies. But so unconfirmed. But there is reason to believe that the screenwriter for Deep Impact, one of the screenwriters, may have had lunch with Michael Ovitz.

[Chris]

We know he had lunch with an unnamed president of Disney.

[Lizzy]

Yes.

[Chris]

And we believe it might be Michael Ovitz.

[Lizzy]

Right. And this is Bruce. Joel Rubin. It could be Michael Ovitz. But regardless, they sat down, they had lunch, and, you know, he asks Bruce what he's working on. What are you working on? And Bruce is like, well, you know, I probably shouldn't tell you. It's for dream. It's for DreamWorks. And he's like, we're buddies. We're buddies here. You know, we're just guys.

[Chris]

Just a couple guys, notably Michael Ovitz, formerly Steven Spielberg's agent. So maybe said to him, oh, hey, I worked with Steve for, you know, 20 years. Like, we're good.

[Lizzy]

They're best friends. I'm a sister. Safe space. So anyway, they have this lunch where Bruce explains what he's working on. He, you know, gives the full elevator pitch and more for Deep Impact. And then, according to Bruce, the President

[Chris]

is taking notes, as he's telling him,

[Lizzy]

taking notes during the lunch, which at that point you should probably stop talking.

[Noah]

I take notes during all my lunch.

[Lizzy]

Yes, of course. It's how I remember what I like about my friends. But, you know, it's so funny because shortly thereafter, Michael Bay and Jonathan Hensley go in to pitch Armageddon and they have like the loosest of loose napkin scribbled ideas for this movie. And they go in and the pitch is so fast, Disney's like, yes, greenlit. It's happening. We're doing it. And by the way, it's called Armageddon and you're gonna be in the theaters in a year. And the theory is that, you know, perhaps they were already noodling this after that lunch. And so when Michael Bay came in and he was like, what about astronauts and oil drillers? They were like, done, done, Michael. We love it. We can't wait.

[Chris]

And what's funny is Armageddon is the production that worked closely with NASA.

[Lizzy]

And so it's the one that they had to have approved by NASA for scientific accuracy.

[Chris]

And what is interesting too, Lizzie, you know, as we talked about in our episode, is there were two other asteroid related projects in development. So James Cameron's Bright Angel Falling was set up at, I believe, 20th Century Fox the time with Peter Hyams maybe set to direct. That never went anywhere. But if you can read the script, I found a copy of it. And it's clear somebody ripped off somebody because between Armageddon, Armageddon's pulling so much from Bright angel falling, or vice versa. And then you also have Asteroid, which becomes an NBC miniseries that's released, I think, in the back half of 1997.

[Manny]

And all of this isn't coming out of thin air. Right. Like, all of these. All of these movies and TV shows about asteroids were inspired by the news of a comet that NASA found in space.

[Chris]

Yeah, the Shoemaker Levy comet had hit Jupiter, and there was all of this imagery of it. And we all of a sudden realized, holy shit, outer space is like a shooting gallery. And there are asteroids flying by us and comets flying by us all the time that we've been unaware of. And also, you know, this hypothesis that the dinosaurs had been destroyed by asteroid or comet hitting the Earth had been formulated in 1985, but I think had really permeated the popular culture in the early 90s with the advent of something like Jurassic park, for example. Dinosaurs are top of mind. So again, I do think it's. There are a lot of minds in Hollywood and we're all processing the same information at the end of the day. And so it does make sense that these ideas, maybe they're stolen from time to time, but what seems more likely is, like asteroids, there are so many hurling past us in any given moment. And what's more unusual is that two studios have the hubris to play the game of chicken and decide to go head to head with developing these movies. And so, to me, it's like the way possibly to think about it is that there is actually a lot of potential for twin films at any given moment. And the reason that we don't have them is that studios tend to back away from going head to head with one another with a given film because it's incredibly risky. And, I mean, Lizzie and I talk about this all the time. Studios, they move movies off of certain weekends because they don't want to compete with a different movie that may overlap in terms of audience. And so one way to think about it might be less I'm gonna shoot another bullet with my gun in midair and instead say, there are so many bullets traveling through the air at all times, I'm actually gonna remove my other bullets from time to time so they don't interfere with the other studio.

[Lizzy]

I actually really like twin films. I like watching them. I'm not mad at their existence at all because they're such a great example of it's not about the story or the idea, it's how you tell it. And it's so fascinating to see two completely different directors like Michael Bay and Mimi Leiter. You can't get more different than those two in terms of Armageddon and Deep Impact telling what is a very similar story. And yet the movies are so different and they are individually enjoyable. And I like when studios plow ahead with this. And like yes, I'm sure there's borrowing, there's osmosis of ideas all the time everywhere. I don't know that that's necessarily a bad thing because they're not going to be the same movie if it's different people making them.

[Manny]

So what I'm hearing is that to us it feels like twin films are happening so frequently. But what you two are saying is that actually considering the way films are produced, twin films could be occurring way more frequently than they are.

[Chris]

So the way I would maybe encourage people to think about it after looking into this a bit is, you know, historically a classic form of twin film has been like the A feature and the B feature, right? And so sometimes this has been on the big screen and sometimes it's either the big screen versus the small screen. So like post disaster film renaissance you would oftentimes see an A picture in theaters and either a miniseries or a television B picture on television. And I think the thinking here is there is an idea that has seemingly captured the zeitgeist and the television corollary to the studio is saying we are going to make our low budget, very fast, cheap and dirty version of this. You know, tornado versus twister, the television two part miniseries of Titanic in 96 versus James Cameron's epic in 97. Because A, A we think that if an audience is interested in the big feature version, maybe they'll just watch this because they're also interested in this. But also B, we could capture a section of the mark market that that studio is not going to be able to capitalize on. Which are the people that are not going to go to the theater necessarily, the people that are just going to stay home and watch it on television. And this is kind of morphed over time into the mockbuster more recently, which you guys might, you know, the guys who do Sharknado etc, and they do things like, like Transmorphers and Paranormal Entity. And it almost seems like the movie, but it's not the movie. And that was really born out of 2006's War of the Worlds. Spielberg was doing an adaptation of World of the Worlds at the same Time that these producers who are kind of Roger Corman esque, are trying to do their version of War of the Worlds because it's public domain, this IP. They realize, wait a second, Blockbuster has ordered 100,000 copies of our VHS, mistakenly thinking they've ordered the Steven Hillberg one. There's a businessman opportunity here. And so I think that that's. That makes sense from a business perspective. And like, what you're saying is the more rare instances to Kaiju, you know, going at it in the water like Olympus has fallen and White House down, for example. And those are rare, I think, again, not because the inception of those ideas is rare. They're actually incredibly common. It's that usually one of the driver pulls out of the skid and says, like, I don't want our cars to hit head on.

[Manny]

Just to kind of distill the reasons why we think twin films are happening into kind of easily consumable explanations. What I'm hearing so far in this conversation is not one reason is, you know, literal intellectual theft. Another reason is that something happened in the Zeitgeist that influenced multiple films to be developed at the same time. Example of that would be like Steve Jobs dying, and then there's two biopics happening all of a sudden. And then the third reason we were talking about is kind of just like technological limitations or breakthroughs, like on the breakthroughs.

[Lizzy]

I think that's exactly right. I think it's a confluence of those three things. And I also just think, you know, it's. It's so tempting to think you stole my idea. You know, I've. It's something that we've probably all experienced, but I. The thing that's. That's harder to come to terms with is that I don't know that any of our ideas are actually that individual when you break them down. And there is kind of a collective unconscious pool I think we're always pulling from. And I do think that's where twin films come from. Like, yes, sometimes you go to lunch with your quote unquote friend who's taking notes. You're probably taking your idea. But there's other times where it's just asteroids and comets are in the news or it's something people are thinking about. It's something that's in the back of your mind. It's something that's in the back of millions of people's minds. And it's something that you realize, hey, I could make money on this. And the fact that somebody else has that idea does not necessarily mean they took it from you. And I think that we underestimate our sort of common brain a bit.

[Chris]

There are also, you know, anniversaries. For example, this would tie into the zeitgeist thing. You know, you had 1492, Conquest of Paradise, Ridley Scott, you know, Christopher Columbus. Nobody saw it. And then you have Christopher Columbus, the Discovery from the producers of a bunch of Superman films. Also nobody saw that movie. So, like, nobody was really interested in the 500th anniversary of Christopher Columbus.

[Noah]

But it was there.

[Chris]

It was embraced by a couple of studios to the tune of $100 million. Like Lizzie is saying, we are all collectively filtering the same information and looking for stories in a lot of these places. And sometimes it's influenced by twin events inside of other forms of media. So, you know, you have like the mid aughts to 2013 sort of YA dystopian future phenomena, right? Where you have the Hunger Games and you have Divergent and you have the Maze Runner. And these are all based on like literary. They're all literary adaptations. But that's because the literary landscape was very much riddled with YA dystopian and, you know, novels. Well, okay, why is the literature landscape riddled with that? Okay, maybe it's because we're in the middle of a recession right now and all of the, you know, hope and change that everybody said Obama was gonna bring doesn't seem to be happening all of a sudden. And it's gonna be the Hunger Games. And so these books are really resonant. Who knows? But I do think Hollywood is very reactionary. At the end of the day, we're simultaneously incredibly unique in that the scene to scene differences in these movies could not be more drastic. And yet the big picture ideas that we're coming to are very universal, I think.

[Manny]

Yeah. And if, for example, Devin and I wanted to make a movie separately, of course they're both going to have the queen ant. They're both going to have the ant colony or the army. They're both going to, you know.

[Lizzy]

You're going to cast Woody Allen.

[Devin]

Yeah, exactly.

[Manny]

I'll go more problematic. I'll see if I can get I don't know who.

[Chris]

Kevin Spacey, problematic.

[Manny]

All right, so we learned a little bit about why twin films happen so regularly. But after the break, I want to return to A Bug's Life and see why Chris and Lizzie think this movie works so well.

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[Lizzy]

like in the Black community this Woman's

[Keep It Positive Sweetie Podcast Voice]

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[Devin]

It's not a destination. You have to work on it every day.

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Keita Keep Positive Sweetie creates space for honest conversations on self worth, love, growth and navigating life with grace and grit, led by women who uplift, inspire and tell the truth out loud.

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[Lizzy]

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[Manny]

Okay, we're back. We're still here with the hosts of what Went Wrong Chris and Lizzy. At the top of our discussion, we were talking about A Bug's Life versus Ants and more broadly, these kind of Disney Pixar versus DreamWorks Twin films. I've always felt like the DreamWorks titles were a little more interesting because they were weirder essentially, and a little more nuanced. But I'm curious about what makes the Pixar movies click for you two.

[Lizzy]

I feel like the it's very tempting to call these Pixar if we're talking about Pixar versus DreamWorks. To call the Pixar movies in particular Bug's Life, the more sort of simplistic ones. I actually think that they're deceptively complicated when I watched because I watched both A Bug's Life and Ants back to back ahead of this. And honestly, yes, A Bug's Life is more geared towards children for sure. However, I think that the sort of. The complex, like, emotional things you have to wrangle with in A Bug's Life, to me, are a bit more complex than they are in Ants.

[Manny]

Interesting.

[Lizzy]

Tells you exactly what it is up front. Interesting. You know, it's. Woody Allen. Ant is in therapy. They literally tell him you're insignificant. He's like, okay, I get it. And then he's like, maybe I'm not insignificant. Maybe we need to start a revolution. And the people. I mean, it's like, it's. Listen, it's fun. I actually, I shouldn't crap on it too much. It's a totally fun movie. But with A Bug's Life, it's more like. I think in making something that is easier for children to relate to, but still very smart, they actually explore something that, to me, has a bit more depth to it. And the same in Toy Story. Like, the characters are actually very complex. You. You don't. You know, Woody is the main character in that. He's. He's kind of a jerk to Buzz. Like, he's a great guy until he's confronted with someone who could potentially usurp his position, and then he's not such a great guy.

[Toyota Dealer Voice]

Well, if you hadn't shown up your stupid little cardboard spaceship and taken away everything that was important to me. Don't talk to me about importance. Because of you, the security of this entire universe is in jeopardy.

[Manny]

What?

[Lizzy]

And it's this question of, like, having to wrangle with yourself in a way that I actually think the Pixar films explore better than some of the Dreamworks.

[Manny]

Interesting. Yeah, it's like, it's taking these complicated ideas and making it digestible for kids is more impressive, you're saying than I think. So this is music to Devin's ears.

[Devin]

Exactly. Exactly. The bug's life. They're playing around with gender, remember? Yes, the Ladybug. And o' Leary is amazing.

[Chris]

Hey, cutie. Want to pollinate with a real bug?

[Toyota Dealer Voice]

So being a ladybug automatically makes me a girl, Is that it, Flyboy, Huh?

[Manny]

Yikes.

[Toyota Dealer Voice]

She's a guy.

[Lizzy]

I had your time.

[Chris]

Also, you know, Heimlich self love and body image and. Yes, I. I agree.

[Lizzy]

It's like I was laughing out loud through all of Bug's life, I gotta tell you. Just howling. Laughing. I couldn't believe how funny that was.

[Chris]

Yeah. It's like in a drama, a line has to work dramatically, and in a comedy, it has to work dramatically and comedically. Right. If you're a Pixar film, has to work for children and adults in equal measure. And like Lizzie's saying, that's a hard target to hit.

[Devin]

Yeah, it is.

[Lizzy]

And I think, interestingly enough, to me, ants, the characters were less dynamic and more sort of caricatures versus a bug's life. They were very complex. Like, you know, the Julia Louis Dreyfus Princess Ant. Total jerk to Dave Foley. I can't remember any of the actual characters names. I just want you guys to know

[Chris]

that I just remember the main character's name was Fantastic. Flick.

[Lizzy]

Flick. She's such a jerk to him and she like recognizes that in herself halfway through. Which was really nice because I was like, man, I hope he doesn't just go for her when she's being such a nagging him.

[Chris]

The whole.

[Manny]

She is.

[Lizzy]

But she turns it around and I just. Yeah, man, I loved it. And the whole idea of the bird is so clever and not something you would think. Sorry, guys. I'm really sorry.

[Manny]

These are great points. Yeah. Well, something I didn't make it. Something interesting that Noah mentioned earlier was that in the dreams works ones like Shark Tale and. And Ants, the characters are often caricatures of the people voicing them.

[Lizzy]

Yes.

[Manny]

Which, like you got the animated.

[Noah]

Exactly.

[Chris]

Yeah.

[Noah]

Yeah.

[Manny]

Which. I don't know. I just thought that was interesting.

[Lizzy]

I'm not a fan of that.

[Manny]

What's up?

[Lizzy]

You don't.

[Manny]

You don't want to see ants that are shaped like Christopher Walken.

[Noah]

That's interesting.

[Lizzy]

I don't want to see Christopher Walken ant. I don't want to see its teeth. I. I just.

[Manny]

The Sylvester Salone ant was awesome though.

[Lizzy]

You have to know. I agree. I agree.

[Manny]

Well, guys, this has been so insightful and useful. Thank you so much for joining us and hope to chat to you guys soon.

[Chris]

Thanks so much for having us.

[Lizzy]

This was great.

[Chris]

You guys have a great show. We will be listening.

[Manny]

No such thing as a production of Kaleidoscope content. Our executive producers are Kate Osborne and Mangesh Hatikador. The show created by Manny Fidel, Noah Friedman and Devin Joseph. The theme and credit song is by me, Manny. This episode was mixed by Pran Bandy. Our guests this week were Chris and Lizzy from the what Went Wrong podcast. Definitely be sure to go check that show out. It's a lot of fun. And visit Nosuchthing show to subscribe to our newsletter. If you had feedback or a question, our email is mannynoadevingmail.com or if you're in the US you can leave us a voicemail by calling the number in our show notes. We'll see you next week.