Why do divorced guys act like that?

Summary

NO SUCH THING – “Why Do Divorced Guys Act Like That?” Episode Date: February 11, 2026
Host: Manny (with regulars Devin, guest host Max Tani, plus interviews with psychologist Dr. Micah Steinborn & sociologist Dr. Jessica Calarco)

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Episode Overview

This episode investigates the pop culture and psychological roots behind the “divorced guy” stereotype: Why do men, especially public figures, often act in notably odd, reckless, or attention-seeking ways post-divorce? Manny, Devin, and special guest Max Tani dissect where this energy comes from, how real-life and media depictions shape it, and whether there’s a comparable “divorced woman” stereotype (spoiler: it’s more complicated, and less flattering). The show combines their research with expert interviews for a holistic breakdown.

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Key Topics and Discussion Points

1. Defining “Divorced Guy Energy”

(Timestamp: 03:12–12:58)

• Origin of the Episode:
  Guest host Max Tani pitches the episode, inspired by a The Cut article listing "most divorced guys" of 2025, i.e., men with maximum "divorced energy."

  • “What makes a divorced guy seem divorced? What behavior falls into that category?” (Max, 03:52)
  • Why this stereotype is instantly recognizable, and why there’s no clear parallel for women.

• Stereotype Characteristics:

  • Obvious public reinventions: new wardrobe, cars, haircuts, and out-of-the-box dating choices.
  • Showcasing fun—Instagramming, clubbing, or generally broadcasting, “I’m better than ever.”
  • Examples:
    • Justin Trudeau dating Katy Perry, “textbook…divorced guy might do.” (Max, 05:20)
    • Eric Adams (not technically divorced) but exudes “divorced guy energy”—party mayor, tells tales about past relationships.
    • Kanye West post-Kim: public pleas and dating multiple lookalikes. “This is the most divorced guy thing ever. Publicly being like, 'come back to me.’” (Devin, 08:06)
    • Walter White (Breaking Bad): midlife, post-divorce wild purchasing and reinvention.
      “It feels like…a coping mechanism, or [he] doesn’t know how to deal with getting divorced and does all this crazy shit.” (Manny, 09:51)

• Personal Experiences:

  • Hosts admit to classic “divorce guy” behaviors after their own breakups—working out, adopting new hobbies, reinventing, “posting as if nothing happened” (Manny, 12:59).

Memorable Quote

"You’ve got someone who wants everyone to know they’re having fun... trying to reinvent themselves. New wardrobe, car, haircut... dating someone you didn’t think you might date before."
— Manny, (10:25–10:39)

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2. The Psychology of Breakups & Divorce (w/ Dr. Micah Steinborn, Clinical & Educational Psychologist)

(Timestamp: 18:21–32:22)

• Why Divorce Hurts So Much:

  • Humans are wired to feel social rejection as life-threatening (a vestige from evolutionary history).

    “To our biology, a divorce or breakup can feel like…‘I’m in a life-threatening situation right now.’” (Dr. Steinborn, 20:10)

  • Breakups trigger stress hormones, lower oxytocin (“cuddle hormone”), and mirror withdrawal symptoms similar to substance addiction.

• Common Male Coping Patterns:

  • Men are frequently the non-initiators, experiencing abrupt and destabilizing change.
  • Three unhelpful responses:
    • Surrender (dejection),
    • Avoidance (isolation),
    • Counterattack—manifesting as excessive “fun,” reinvention, or conspicuous displays.

    “A lot of what we’re talking about is image management... The counterattack... show that it didn’t happen to me.” (Manny & Max, 24:19)

• Attachment Styles Matter:

  • Men tend toward more avoidant attachment; women tend toward anxious attachment.
  • Avoidant men bottle emotions and gravitate to substance use, distraction, or extravagant self-reinvention.

Memorable Quotes

“There’s a similar activation in brain patterns [after a breakup] to people going through substance addiction withdrawal.”
— Dr. Micah Steinborn, 21:00

“The [divorced guy] energy... is a counterattack, in the sense that something bad happened to me and I have to deal with it very publicly.”
— Manny, 24:07

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3. Gender Roles, Housework, & the “Divorced Woman” Stereotype (w/ Dr. Jessica Calarco, Professor of Sociology)

(Timestamp: 32:22–48:42)

• Sociological Roots of Stereotypes:

  • U.S. lacks a social safety net—women pick up the gap by doing more unpaid care and housework, especially in marriage.
  • In countries with robust social programs, both men and women do less housework/care work, reducing inequality.

• What Changes After Divorce:

  • Women typically spend less time on housework after divorce—they no longer care for men who (statistically) create extra work.

    “Divorced women spend less time on housework than married women do because husbands are actually creating a lot of housework for women.” (Dr. Calarco, 36:08)

  • Women still take on more childcare; moms' leisure time post-divorce increases a bit, but not nearly as much as for dads.

• Stereotypes and Visibility:

  • Divorced dads' behaviors are more conspicuous and Instagram-friendly (buying motorcycles, clubbing) vs. divorced moms (reading, TV), fueling the stereotype.
  • The “divorced woman” stereotype, when it exists, is negative: bitter, angry, or greedy—used to discourage divorce and reinforce marriage’s cultural supremacy.

• Queer Relationships: (40:02)

  • Same-sex couples often share housework/childcare more equally but face the same childcare crises from structural issues.

• Advice for Men Not to Become the Stereotype:

  • Take on “cognitive labor”—the behind-the-scenes worrying, planning, and logistics, not just visible chores.

    “If men can take on more of that worry work... and not just wait for the list to show up, that’s a great way.” (Dr. Calarco, 46:01)

Memorable Quotes

“Jess was right that... the stereotypes that exist of divorced women [are] more negative—[the] wine-drinking, kind of bitter. But... reality is that women are happy.”
— Max, 49:31

“We live in a culture that still very much valorizes marriage… Stereotypes [of] divorced women… are used to punish, to discourage women from divorcing.”
— Dr. Calarco, 43:01

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Major Insights & Takeaways

• The “Divorced Guy” energy is a cultural mashup:
  It’s part evolutionary psychology (shock and loss), part gendered socialization (avoidant coping), and part social media amplification (highly visible, headline-grabbing behaviors).

• Why men show it more:
  Women are often the initiators and better prepared for the transition; men’s reactions are less processed, more abrupt, and sometimes counterattacking.

• No equivalent “fun divorced woman” archetype:
  When divorced women are stereotyped, it’s to shame or discourage, not to indicate wild reinvention. Real outcomes show post-divorce quality of life improvements for women—particularly less housework.

• The image is (mostly) a projection:
  Media and social circles may “require” men to show they’re thriving, even if privately they're struggling.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Max, on the divorced guy archetype:
  “Why do we all kind of instantly recognize what that is? Like, what makes a divorced guy... seem divorced?” (03:52)
• Manny, condensing the stereotype:
  “Someone who wants everyone to know that they’re having fun... trying to reinvent themselves—new wardrobe, new car, new haircut...” (10:25–10:39)
• Dr. Steinborn on brain chemistry:
  “[After a breakup] there’s a similar activation... to people going through substance addiction withdrawal.” (21:00)
• Dr. Calarco on housework:
  “Divorced women spend less time on housework... because husbands are actually creating a lot of housework for women.” (36:08)
• Devin, on his dad post-divorce:
  “He definitely had divorce guy energy... started smoking cigars, which he never did beforehand.” (29:49)
• Dr. Calarco on real benefits:
  “Women are happier after divorce than men are... they don’t have that one extra person [to clean up after].” (36:13)
• Max, on reality vs stereotype:
  “Actually divorced women... tend to be happier and divorced men... tend to be sadder, which is really interesting.” (49:39)

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Episode Conclusion

The “divorced guy” stereotype is a mix of neurobiology, gendered socialization, and social media spectacle. Men’s post-divorce antics reflect both coping mechanisms and image management, driven by shock, emotional avoidance, and societal scripts about masculinity. Women, typically less visible post-divorce (and more likely to be shamed than celebrated), often end up happier—but their labor and social expectations linger.

Final Insight:
Both experts encourage acknowledging pain, resisting knee-jerk image management, and addressing the deeper work (both personal and functional) that leads to healthier adjustment—regardless of gender.

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For further reading and resources from the episode:

• Max Tani’s podcast, Mixed Signals (Semaphore)
• Dr. Micah Steinborn’s YouTube channel
• Dr. Jessica Calarco’s book, Holding It Together

Transcript

[A]

Kaleidoscope. I'm Manny.

[B]

I'm Max.

[C]

This is Devin.

[A]

And this is no Such Thing. The show where we settle our dumb arguments and yours by actually doing the research on today's episode. Why do divorced men act like that? There's no such thing. No such thing.

[D]

Run a business and not thinking about podcasting? Think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ad supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. Learn how podcasting can help your business. Call 844-844-IHeart.

[E]

I'm Bowen Ying.

[B]

And I'm Matt Rogers.

[E]

During this season of the 2GU in the lead up to the Milan Cortina.

[C]

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[E]

By some of our friends.

[B]

Hi, Bowen. Hi, Matt. Hey, Elmo.

[A]

Hey, Matt. Hey, Bowen.

[B]

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[A]

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[B]

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[A]

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[A]

Right, just a quick programming note. No, we did not fire Noah.

[C]

Not yet.

[A]

He's simply on vacation. But you never know. Maybe if Max, you know, shows his.

[C]

Words, he may have to stay on vacation.

[A]

Have a conversation.

[B]

I wore like kind of a Noah esque sweater today. Same height. Like I could fill in, you know?

[A]

Yeah. We've got a special guest today, a guest who I'm surprised we have not had on yet.

[C]

I know it's kind of disappointing given.

[A]

The fact that you were not only at the beginning, like 10 years ago, really at the beginning for some of these original flavor arguments that inspired this show. And our special guest is Maxwell. Tawny. Thanks for joining us.

[B]

I'm excited to be here. I don't think I can totally live up to Noah, but I'll do my best.

[A]

Max is a media reporter and editor for Semaphore. But, Max, we're here today because of a pitch that you had for us. This is actually your idea, this episode. And so I wondered if you could just walk us through what your question was and how we can help.

[B]

Yeah, you know, as a part of my job, thinking about and writing about and podcasting about the media business and industry, you know, I consume a lot of articles. I'm still one of the few people who I think reads. Yeah, yeah. My brain isn't totally rotted yet. I can read something for about 30 seconds. And at the end of the year, last year, I was reading an article in the Cut listing, like, the most divorced guys of 2025, which I found to be an amusing, you know, old school kind of style, like, 2010 style blog post. But it made me kind of think.

[A]

Like, what is, to be clear, most divorced. Not, like, amount of times divorced.

[B]

No, like, kind of the most divorced energy. Like, which, you know, got at this point that I was thinking of, which is, why do we all kind of instantly recognize what that is? Like, what makes a divorced guy. Divorced. Seem divorced? What's the type of behavior when people say, like, oh, that guy is such a divorce guy. Like, what is it? We kind of know what falls into that category. But I guess I was curious about why that's immediately recognizable and also, like, why there's no parallel for, you know, in a straight relationship, you know, divorce characteristics for women. It just. And why do we have just such a vivid picture in our heads? So that's what I was hoping that you guys would figure out for me, but I'm here to help puzzle through it with you.

[A]

Well, it's a great question, and I've been thinking about this a little bit, and, you know, not to do a. Not all men, but, you know, there are men who are divorced who are not the divorced guy, if that makes sense. Right. So we really want to define what it. What being a divorced guy or having divorced guy energy is or what the divorce guy stereotype is. So why don't we walk through some examp. Let's start with you, Max. Like, who's a guy that you think is, like, this guy is extremely divorced, not just literally, but also in the way he behaves.

[B]

Well, the most famous one right now, I would say is former Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Who famously got divorced, I think, last year or the year before that, and is now dating Katy Perry in a very public way. Right. Like kind of fangirling out at her shows in Canada after Sparking romance rumors with Katy Perry. Thanks to this outing captured by tmz.

[E]

The politician was on hand for the pop Stars Montreal concert on Wednesday.

[B]

They're showing up at public events together.

[E]

Former Prime Minister Justin Trudeau spoke at the summit today. His girlfriend, pop star Katy Perry, was.

[A]

There in the front row.

[B]

Initially, I had come here thinking like, oh, we should talk about Bezos, who famously got married last year. Also a majorly divorced guy. But Justin Trudeau I think is like expressing textbook characteristics of what a. What a divorced guy might do.

[A]

Yeah. So he's just like out in public a lot more. He's dating someone now who's kind of left field for a politician. I'm trying to think of, like some. Another example. Devin, do you have one?

[C]

I just thought of someone who's actually not divorced, who has divorced guy energy.

[A]

So, yeah, that's helpful.

[C]

Former New York City mayor Eric Adams has divorced guy energy. You know, I was like, wait a minute. Because he's like, I don't think he's been in any, like, real long term relationship.

[A]

He has divorced.

[C]

Is he?

[B]

He's like, he has like a long term domestic partner, but he definitely has the divorce guy characteristics. Publicly talking about his ex in like, kind of embarrassed of old exes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like 20 years away. Is that. Yeah, yeah. Shorty from Far Rockaway.

[C]

I had a shorty that lived out here, you know, used to come out, come out. Taking that long a train ride, you know, in the cold, you know, love is blind, man.

[B]

You know, talking in a big way about being out. Yes. Partying very publicly.

[C]

Showing you how much fun they're having.

[B]

Showing you how much fun they're having.

[A]

That is a great point. And I think that's a good. A great example of a divorced guy stereotype. It's like he wants you to know how much fun he's having. Yeah.

[C]

I am the mayor. This is the city of nightlife. I must test the product. I have to be out.

[A]

But wait, who was the one that.

[C]

Said my real one was Kanye?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Post cam. I just got actually fed in my feed. My TikTok feed yesterday. I forgot all about this. It was him and Drake did some, like, joint Larry Hoover benefit concert, which I don't know if he was. I remember Larry Hoover, but. And then during Runaway, Kanye's singing about wanting Kim to run away back to him as like a freestyle. I need you to run right back.

[F]

To me, baby I need you to.

[C]

Run back back to me, baby. And I'm like, this is the most divorced guy thing ever. Publicly being like, come back to me. I'm sorry, my b.

[B]

What about, like, the fact that he also, like, started dating somebody who looked like his ex and he was dating.

[C]

A couple people that looked like him before he landed on his current wife?

[A]

Yes. How does Kim Kardashian feel about Kanye.

[G]

West dating a lookalike recently?

[A]

Sources say, quote, it's almost out of spite to make Kim jealous, but she couldn't care less. Sometimes you see someone date someone who looks like their ex, and you're like, okay, they've got a type. In this instance, it's like, okay, no.

[C]

He'S looking for a dog.

[A]

He's making a statement here. He wants people to be talking about this.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

My example is as a fictional character. Mia has been watching Breaking Bad.

[G]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And there's a whole season arc of Walt Walter White after his divorce and how he kind of feels the. This intense desire to reinvent himself. He buys a Dodge Charger, he buys his son a Dodge Charger, he gets an apartment, and just, like, buys it as is. No, no, this one's fine.

[B]

I'll take it.

[E]

Now, unfortunately, this one is the model.

[A]

So, yeah, I like it. Like, everything about it, I'll take it as is. All kinds of shit that just. It feels so left field for him. And I think the reason is because I guess you get a little bit more freedom to do things.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And I think part of the divorce guy energy is it's just like, where are your priorities? Right? Like, you know, they'll buy, like, a car or a motorcycle. It's like a little kid spending money.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Oh, my God.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It feels like kind of a, I guess, like, coping mechanism, or it is. In this TV show, at least he doesn't know how to deal with getting divorced and does all this crazy shit.

[B]

No, but it is true to Devin's point. It's a little bit of, like, all the stuff that you kind of wanted to do when you were a teenager or maybe in your 20s, that you had someone around, a mature force in your life saying, like, no, we're not gonna do, like, post shirtless pics. You don't need to be doing that. Or, like, we're not. You don't need to buy a motorcycle or go on, like, a motorcycle trip with your boys or something like that, though.

[A]

That sounds sick to me. So let's just distill a couple of charact characteristics from those examples. So, like, we've got someone who wants everyone to know that they're having fun. Yeah, we've Got people who, like, try and reinvent themselves.

[C]

New wardrobe.

[A]

New wardrobe, new car, new haircut. Yeah. Dating someone who you might not like, you know, someone who you didn't think you might date before. Like, just trying. Trying new things.

[B]

There's, like, there in the public discourse about divorce, there is, like, kind of a tone of, like, dating someone really silly. Like, dating someone completely inappropriate for you in a way that is not just like kind of like, what are you doing? But that is comedic to us.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Like the idea of Justin Trudeau dating Katy Perry when she is, like, going into space, you know, like just the stupidest combination of possible scenarios that I think is, like, plays into it. It's their version of, you know, normies might, like, like, all of us. Although you guys are like, apple top, podcast, whatever, new people of the year. Maybe you guys don't qualify anymore. But, like, you know, normies, like, like myself, you know, if. If I were to go through a very serious breakup, it would certainly result in me being on a few dates with someone who probably is not going to end up being the love of my life and might to the general public seem, you know, kind of silly.

[A]

And ridiculous, a little bit of a head scratcher.

[B]

But the celebrity version of, like, who do I know? Like, oh, former, you know, platinum pop star Katy Perry, like, that's the kind of people I interact with.

[A]

So I guess divorced and date Ice Spice.

[B]

Right?

[A]

That's my next move. Well, that's a. That's a good point, Max. That's a good transition. Because I wanted to ask the three of us, you know, in our previous breakups, just to really get to the. To the heart of the. This stereotype. Do you feel like you've ever behaved this way? I think, like, when, you know, in previous breakups, I definitely can identify some of these behaviors from, like, the most famously divorced celebrities. Things like partying way more, staying out way too late. Maybe the apartment starts to get a little messier. I'm living in my own filth a little bit. Shortly after a breakup, you know, wanting to appear. This is the big one. Wanting to appear as if nothing, as if it's not a huge deal.

[C]

Posting a little.

[A]

Yeah, I remember for sure after a previous breakup, it was like, around the time of the World cup in, like, 2018 or something. And I was just posting as if nothing happened. I'm looking at every day, I'm at a bar, watching a soccer game, and. And I remember, like, a few months after that being like, okay, so I was definitely attempting something. Yeah, I was going through something, you know, subconsciously. But what. What about you?

[C]

You ever try to reinvent yourself? You know, y. I feel like I got like really into like working out. Post break.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You know, like I got a lot more time. I'm gonna really hit the gym there.

[A]

That's a good. Yeah. So that's. Yeah. I don't think I've. You know, Definitely. Maybe some. Buying some random new clothes.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

For the glow up is a classic. You either have the glow up or the glow down. Yes. Right.

[C]

Like, it's like, okay, we haven't talked to. What's keeping it together for you.

[G]

Exactly.

[B]

No, exactly. Like, we haven't. We haven't talked about the sad stereotypes as well.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

You know, such as smoking, not sleeping, you know, kind of appearing disheveled.

[C]

Yes. Drinking a lot more.

[B]

Yeah, drinking. Yeah, drinking. Partying in a bad way.

[A]

Yes. You know, not a very healthy way of partying either. Staying up late at the clubs or at home not doing anything. Yeah. Just up until 4am yeah. Watching gaming or being on Twitter or whatever. Movies. Yeah.

[B]

But the. But, but to your point though, I do think like the physical. Reinventing yourself in a physical way, the classic. I mean, this is like after. After a serious breakup that I. Is when I decided I was like, oh, I'm gonna get into running. Which is like one of. That's gotta be like the number one thing that people do after going through a serious breakup. Working out in some way. But specifically running.

[C]

Yeah, running is. Yes.

[B]

You don't start down that path if you're just a normal, well adjusted person. You gotta be trying to get away.

[A]

But then, I mean, it became something that's a big part of your life now, running, which is like if you've run marathons and you're good at it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Sometimes some of these things can be positive.

[B]

I actually think like a lot of this stuff is. Is generally positive. Like I actually. That's the thing about the. Some of the stereotypes that I think are kind of silly. It's like, it's actually kind of nice to, you know, find rediscover kind of who you are by putting yourself out there and doing some stupid shit and like stuff that otherwise you might laugh at yourself for.

[C]

I agree with Max that like some amount of that I think is healthy. Like, you know, people need to find out who they are outside of their partner. And I think sometimes you're in a relationship for a while, you know, you start to kind of become one another. But I think there's like a healthy window for that. And I think when divorced dad energy goes wrong is when that person gets stuck in that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And it just becomes, all right, you got divorced four or five years ago and you're still acting this way. It's like, okay, you're a 45, 50 year old man. At a certain point, maybe you need to grow up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I think there's two obvious things we can do to figure out, like what's going on in the brain of the divorce guy. One of them is talk to a psychologist, which, luckily for you two, I've already done. And so you'll be hearing from them after the break.

[D]

Run a business and not thinking about podcasting, Think again. More Americans listen to podcasts than ad supported streaming music from Spotify and Pandora. And as the number one podcaster, iHeart's twice as large as the next two combined. So whatever your customers listen to, they'll hear your message. Plus, only iHeart can extend your message to audiences across broadcast radio. Think podcasting can help your business? Think iHeart streaming radio and podcasting. Call 844-844-IHeart to get started. That's 844-844-IHEART.

[E]

What do you do when the headlines don't explain what's happening inside of you? I'm Ben Higgins, and if you can hear me is where culture meets the soul. Real conversation. Each episode I sit down with people from all walks of life. Celebrities, thinkers, and everyday folks. And we go deeper than the polished story. We talk about what drives us, what shapes us, and what gives us hope. We get honest about the big stuff. Identity when you don't recognize yourself anymore. Loss that changes you Purpose when success isn't enough Peace when your mind won't slow down Faith when it's complicated Some guests have answers. Most are still figuring it out. If you've ever felt like there has to be more to the story, this show is for you. Listen to if youf Can Hear me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[A]

Enjoy the go with charming. All right, we're back. I'm Manny.

[C]

I'm Max Devin.

[A]

And we're about to hear from a psychologist to see if we can figure out what's going on, you know, behind the set of eyes of the divorced man.

[F]

My name is Micah Steinborn, and I'm a clinical and educational psychologist.

[A]

So the first question I had for Micah is just like basic science. Like, what is actually happening to our brain after a breakup?

[F]

Often people are very surprised at the intensity of what a breakup or divorce can feel like. They're overwhelmed by how bad they feel. So this is actually something that is surprising to people. The reason, first of all, it feels so bad is because we're a social species. And way, way back in the lives of our ancestors, if we were shunned from the group, if somebody rejected us socially, that often meant death. So our biology, it didn't adapt as quickly to our modern life as we might think. So our body is pretty much the same as the body of the Neanderthals. So when we get rejected socially, our bodies think, okay, tomorrow I'll be eaten by the tiger or whatever animal was around. So to our biology, a divorce or breakup can feel something like, this is life threatening. Like, I'm in a life threatening situation right now. Like, I need to repair this. This needs to be fixed. Like, I'm in danger. That's what the biology feels like. And like, on the chemical level, what this looks like is that we've got more cortisol. Those are our stress hormones. So that's often why people can, like, have digestive issues or trouble sleeping or just feel, like, constantly agitated and unable to calm down. And we've also got less of oxytocin. It's also called the cuddle hormone. This is released when we snuggle, and it makes us feel warm and safe and relaxed. So if you've got more stress hormones, less of oxytocin, that already kind of explains the stress situation of the biology. And then there's also a really interesting study that did brain imaging, and what they found is that after a breakup or divorce, there's a similar activation in brain patterns to people going through substance addiction withdrawal. So this is like the dopamine reward system that's activated, and that is, like, it's a chasing system. So this system makes us want to chase whatever we lost, the drug or the person. And that's probably where the cravings come in and the obsessive thinking, the ruminating, the, like, rescue mission of I have to get this person back. Like, what happened? Where did they go?

[A]

So I thought the most interesting piece of information in that was that we are, like, biologically speaking, we're kind of behaving as if we're about to die. Like, we are outcasts from, like, some kind of safety net that we had. And our response is actually like, thousands and thousands of years old.

[C]

The comparison to it, like, withdrawal from drugs. Right. Because I think that speaks to, like, the stakes feel so high in a moment where you're like. You can't imagine what your life will be like a month, two months, three months. Like, each minute feels, like, excruciating at the time. And then when you look back on it, you're like, why was. I feel like, really?

[A]

Why acting like this?

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

Much like, you know, a real withdrawal from, like, some substance. You know, you do start to do things you wouldn't normally do to try and get the high again. So that does make a lot of sense.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I wanted to get to the specific question about, like, you know, why is it the case that men seem to feel the need to want to reinvent themselves after a breakup? So I asked Micah, what could be behind that urge?

[F]

Often the initiator of a divorce or breakup is the woman. So I think that's where one of the main differences comes from. It makes a huge difference whether or not you chose to go down this path or if it's happening to you. So that means it's more intense. It also happens more suddenly for the man, because if so, the woman is. Probably didn't decide this on a whim. So they've been preparing for that, maybe for years, emotionally, mentally, but for the. For the party that didn't choose the breakup. It's like, from one day to the next, their whole life is shattered. So it's this very big, sudden disruption of their life, of their identity, of their roles, of their daily structure. And I think that's where the search for identity comes from. It's like, who am I now, now that I'm a divorce guy, and now that I see my kids, maybe only every other week. And now that many of my friends won't talk to me anymore because they feel like they have to decide. People internalize the rejection after a divorce, and there's three ways of dealing with that in a not so functional way. So let's say something's not working for them and their emotional processing. It's counterattack, avoidance, or surrender.

[A]

So just to review, there are kind of three reactions. You could have to internalizing a rejection. So let's say, for example, in this case, you know, the. The men in these divorces were not the part of the couple that decided to get divorced. You could surrender and feel dejected. You could experience avoidance, which means you're just not going to talk to people again. And then there's the counter attack. And I think that's really what we're talking about when it comes to the. The energy, the aura of these divorced men. It's a counterattack in the sense that, like, something bad happened to me and I have to deal with it very publicly and show that it didn't happen to me. Or like, that you're maybe taking some kind of control back from the thing that you didn't have any control over. Does that sound right to you guys?

[B]

Yeah, because I think a lot of what we're talking about is all kind of like image management, right? Like the sat, the kind of internal stuff that you hear from, like, your friends who or have experienced, you know, from your friends who've gone through a breakup or yourself, you know, who've gone through a breakup or divorce or whatever. It's oftentimes much more of the what you would expect. The real sadness, loneliness, and like, kind of vulnerability. Whereas what we see, you know, on our feeds when somebody breaks up is always the counterattack that. The kind of messaging right now, as.

[A]

A media reporter, I'm sure you've run into this all the time where some news story came out, something that was like an expose or whatever, and you needed to, like, get a comment or something. Like, is that behavior kind of the same where, like, they need to make sure actually that this thing that you heard about them is not true or that, you know, it's not a big deal to them. Do you run into this at work?

[B]

It's. It's definitely. Yeah. I mean, like, there's a entire business of, you know, spinning all of these things, right? And part of. Of the things that we all, I think, are laughing at to a certain degree is, is the spin, you know, whether that is just posting yourself, you know, shredded selfies, you know, or dating somebody significantly younger or something like that. That's. It's both those things are both for the soul, but also obviously have to do with, in some regards, with image.

[A]

Max, earlier you had a question about the difference between men and women post breakup. And so I asked Micah about this.

[F]

I think a lot of the things the people sometimes think about may not be what's actually at play. Like, there could be deeper Things like there's differences in attachment styles. So there's four different attachment styles. This is the way we show up in relationships. And there's one that's like the healthy one, it's called secure attachment. That's around 50% of people. And then we have the other 50% of people have an insecure attachment style. And there's three of them. There's 5% of people who have what's called disorganized attachment. That's a very unpredictable pattern of being in relationships. It's like the typical on off relationship. And then the rest, which is about like 22% each is avoidant and anxious attachment. And men are more likely to have avoidant attachment. Women lean more towards the anxious attachment side. And I think often when we see how men and women deal with breakups differently, we think it's because of gender. Maybe gender also plays a role in what attachment style somebody has. But it's more the attachment style than necessarily gender, I would say that really influences what it feels like, what it's like. And avoidant attachment means bottling up emotions, not really being in touch with your emotions, but still being influenced by them and trying to cope with emotions. I mean, the insecure attachment styles have unhealthy coping mechanisms. And for avoidant attachment, that's like substance abuse or gaming or work addiction. Kind of like any, anything that takes your mind off of your problem. That's like the, the person who doesn't really know what to do with these emotions and maybe also had some like mental health struggles or not such great resilience even before the divorce. So this divorce is just the tip of the iceberg. And then it all kind of comes crashing down and the things that they never learned before are now really causing great, great havoc.

[A]

So it seems like when it comes to the gender breakdown, it has a lot to do with attachment styles, which is like something I see on social media a lot. I haven't really like tried to figure out what they mean.

[E]

Yeah.

[C]

What type of attachment style do you have?

[A]

I don't know. Yeah, I think I've probably got the healthiest attachments. If I had to grade myself the.

[C]

Best one on there. I got that one, whatever the good one is.

[A]

But yeah, I, I guess we didn't necessarily get to why, why we don't talk about women having any kind of divorced energy. And I think what our psychologist here is saying is that they're less likely to have the different attachment styles or kind of counter attacks that would lead to that in the first Place.

[C]

I think, too, you know what she was saying earlier in regards to, like, in a lot of these situations, the woman is initiating the divorce.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yeah. And as a child, you know, I think I'm the only child of divorce here. Right.

[B]

Yeah. My parents are not divorced.

[C]

So as someone who has seen this play out, there is a thing of like. Yeah. And you think about it with breakups, too, Right. There's one person who's like, I need to break up with this person. I need to find the right moment to do that.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

So they're mentally planning for that moment in their head.

[A]

That could be years.

[C]

Yeah. It could be a long period of time. So when it actually happens, it's not like it's like, oh, my God, what is happening? Versus the guy in a lot of situations who's oblivious to just finding out how he's like, whoa, wait, we have an issue in our relationship. So to them, it's like, a huge shock.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

And if it's a huge shock to them and they have an unhealthy attachment style, it's just like. It's just like the snowball effect.

[A]

Well, how old were you when your parents got divorced?

[C]

I was in fifth grade.

[A]

So maybe not old enough to kind of, like, understand if your dad was doing the divorce kind of behavior.

[C]

Oh, he definitely had, like, he started. He definitely had divorce guy energy. Like, he, like, started smoking cigars, which he never did beforehand.

[A]

That's a classic one.

[C]

And it was like, some stuff was, like, the classic case of, like, my mom was the cleaner one of the two. So like, when I would go visit him, his house would be, like, a mess.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And just, like, less structure. Like, it wouldn't be like, why are we eating at this time? You know, like, it was classic, like, divorce dad energy, for sure.

[A]

Interesting. It's. It's funny. It was so obvious that you were in fifth grade.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

I was like, okay, there's this. My mom had all the structure here.

[A]

My last question that I asked the psychologist was, you know, if there's any divorced guys listening to this podcast right now, and you don't want to appear, you know, this way, or you don't want to, like, lean into any of the more unhealthy ways of dealing with a divorce. You know, what should they be doing? How should they deal with their breakup?

[F]

It helps to acknowledge that it's painful because often what can happen is people will be like, what's wrong with me that I'm suffering this much? Like, I should be over this. This shouldn't affect me as much. I'm such a loser for being this weak. And to not have those kind of thoughts because you're already in pain. Why make it worse with these judgments? And just really accept this is painful.

[D]

Painful.

[F]

It is for 99% of people going through this. And you're not alone in this. And it's completely acceptable to struggle and not be okay. And then to make sure, because it's such a loss of control, to make sure that you really don't kind of chuck all of control out of the window. But try to stay on top of everything that you can stay on top of. So that means try to keep, like, a regular routine throughout the day. And, like, try to sleep at roughly the same time and get enough sleep. Have regular meals, exercise. Find a way also to have space for your emotions. Maybe that's journaling, meditation, thinking about it when you're on walks. Socializing is important. Meet up with friends, join communities. And even if you don't feel like doing any of those things or like pursuing hobbies, I mean, often people are like, I don't want to be a Debbie Downer at the party, so I'm just not going to go. But that's not a healthy thing to do. And I think you can burden your friendships a bit like that and just not be the life of the party and just still come and sit in the corner and at least be part of it than just isolating at home.

[A]

Okay, after the break, we're gonna talk to a sociologist and find out why divorced women actually spend less time on housework than they did before the divorce. All right, we're back, and we're here with Jessica Calarco, professor of sociology at the University of Wisconsin. Jess, thanks for joining us.

[G]

Thanks so much for having me.

[A]

Could you just start by just telling us what you do for a living? Exactly.

[B]

Sure.

[G]

I'm a sociologist and also an author. I've written a couple books on inequalities in family life and education. And the most, most recent one is probably the one that's most relevant to our conversation today, which is holding it, How Women Became America's Safety Net.

[A]

Yeah. So I'm curious about this kind of argument and thesis. Could you tell us a little bit about it briefly?

[B]

Sure.

[G]

So basically, in other countries, governments use tax dollars to fund social programs that help take care of people and keep them safe from harm. I'm talking about programs like guaranteed health care, universal childcare and elder care, robust unemployment benefits, paid sick leave, things along those lines in the Us, we instead tend to tell people, it's your responsibility to take care of yourself and keep yourself safe. You know, that's not the government's job. The problem, though, is that there are plenty of people in our society who can't take care of themselves or keep themselves safe in those ways. I mean, most easily that you could point to the children, the sick, the elderly. And so in those cases, someone else needs to step in to take care of them. And certainly men could share equally in that responsibility with women. But most men in the US end up leveraging their privilege and their power in society to push that work onto women instead. And going further, particularly in married type relationships, a lot of men also leverage that same privilege and power to get women to take care of their needs, like with cooking and cleaning and emotional support on top of the work that women are already doing for themselves. And for those who are too young or too old or too sick to take care of themselves, how do you.

[B]

See that people's lives and relationships? Let's talk about, like a place that has a strong safety net, like Norway or something like that, you know, Scandinavian country. When we're talking about, you know, heteronormative relationships here, do you see a difference between the actual lives of, in particular, women in those countries and women in the US because of the. This lack of this safety net?

[G]

Absolutely. So essentially what you see is that the gender inequalities in things like time on housework, time on childcare, you see smaller gaps between men and women in those other countries that have invested more in these kinds of supports than we see in the US and at the same time, it's not because men are necessarily doing more than men here. You actually see both men and women in those other countries spending less time on things like housework and childcare than you see in the US and it's because there's less of that labor to go around. There's more of that labor that we can turn to the state for support with. And so we don't need to take on as much of that ourselves. Which means that you both see less inequality and more things like leisure time for everyone, more time for sleep, more time for fun, because you can offload some of that responsibility to the state to kind of other paid caregivers that are better compensated than paid caregivers in.

[A]

The U.S. in this episode, we're kind of endeavoring to get to the bottom of, like, the divorced guy stereotype. I'm curious about how divorce specifically plays a role in the dynamic you're talking about with these safety nets.

[G]

I've heard of this stereotype that I think the answer here is maybe a little bit complicated because these trends kind of work in complex ways. So you see, inequalities in housework and childcare are one of the primary reasons why couples in the US Tend to get divorced in the first place, that the more unequal couples are. That puts a strain on relationships and can actually, particularly if women are financially in a position to be able to leave a relationship like that, where things are very unequal, it's highly likely that they'll do so. And actually, after divorce, things tend to get a little better for women, at least on the housework front. Basically, divorced women spend less time on housework than married women do because husbands are actually creating a lot of housework for women. And so, you know, after they get divorced, women don't have to spend as much time taking care of men. And so they're actually. No, seriously. And this is part of why women are happier after divorce than men are, is because they don't have that one extra person that they're spending a lot of time taking care of. And so there is sort of this complex, complex relationship here. At the same time, you know, there are complexities here in the sense that after divorce, women do tend to take on more of the caregiving, the child care responsibilities in households with kids. And so it does save some time on the housework front, but it can create some more challenges on the care work front at the same time.

[A]

What an incredible indictment. So, like, after a divorce, you're mentioning that women do take on more responsibility in terms of not necessarily housework, but childcare. Do you think that plays a role into the stereotype we're talking about? Where, you know, could it be the case that women would be leaning into this stereotype if they had the time to do it?

[G]

Yeah. And this is another place where the data are a little bit complicated in the sense that we actually know that even before they get divorced, if couples are still married, if we're talking about, you know, men, women, men, women types of couples, married men actually get a lot more leisure time already than married women do. On average, it's about two hours more per week that men are spending on leisure time when they're married and when both partners are working full time. And those gaps actually get even bigger when you put kids into the equation. So it's almost three hours a week difference between married moms with young kids and married dads with young kids in terms of how much time they're spending on leisure time for themselves. And so basically, even though we often think of divorced dads as the ones who are getting all this time, married men are, are actually already getting this bonus at the same time when it comes to things like hobbies. And this is another place where things get complicated because divorced moms are actually better off leisure time wise than married moms. That married moms are the ones who are in the worst place when it comes to things like leisure time, in part because especially if they have shared custody arrangements after divorce, moms might have a couple days off a week or every other week where their not with the kids. And so they can invest more in hobbies. They don't get as much time as divorced dads do, but they do get slightly more time than moms. And so it is kind of this like more complex relationship. The other complicating factor for divorced moms though, is that compared to dads, and because of gender pay gaps, they tend to have much lower incomes and especially for moms who've say, taken some time out of the workforce to care for their kids while they were young or taken a step back career wise. And so even if they have a little bit more time to invest in leisure time activities, they have less resources compared to dads. And so they end up doing things that are more stay at home types of activities, reading more books or watching more tv, as opposed to, say, going out and joining clubs or doing other things that cost money when it comes to their leisure.

[A]

Yeah. Buying a motorcycle, for example.

[G]

Not so likely here.

[B]

So Jess, mostly we've been talking about heteronormative relationships, but obviously there are a lot of queer relationships where I would imagine some of these expectations are inverted or some of the norms and habits might be a little bit different. Can you talk a little bit about how queer relationships might be a little bit different than some of the straight relationships we've been talking about?

[G]

Yeah, in part because same sex marriage is legally more new than kind of more heterosexual marriages. We don't have as much data on what happens post divorce, for example, with these couples. But what we do know from these couples more generally is that queer couples tend to have of more egalitarian divisions of labor when it comes to things like housework and childcare, in part because they don't bring with them the same gender baggage that comes into men, women types of relationships when it comes to pressure to be the breadwinner versus the homemaker. And so they can push those stereotypes in ways that Allow them to find arrangements that work better for them as individuals. At the same time, that doesn't mean that things are always perfectly equal. Some of the same sex couples that I interviewed in my own research, for example, talk about the stresses that they feel, especially once kids are added, that, you know, if one, if they can't find childcare, for example, I talked to one couple with two moms who, they really wanted to split everything equally and yet they struggled to find childcare. The first spot they could find was a part time spot when their daughter was nine months old and they only had a couple of weeks of paid family leave. And so it was this, you know, how do we make things work in the meantime? And one of the moms ended up, you know, first dropping back to part time work and then dropping out of the workforce entirely to care for her daughter, because that was the only way they could make it work. And so I think it's important to note that these, these kinds of structural conditions that, that make it harder for families. This lack of childcare, for example, or lack of paid family leave is also affecting same sex couples. But it's at the same time they're often more creative than different gender couples when it comes to finding ways to, to make that work in more equal ways.

[A]

I spoke to a psychologist about this kind of stereotype with the divorced guys. I'm curious, from a sociological perspective, what do you think is driving this stereotype? Are there sociological factors at play here that don't have to do with what's happening in the brain, for example?

[G]

That's a good question. I mean, I think this is one of those places where the stereotype is often what gets portrayed in terms of media, and particularly now social media as well. And so we can certainly imagine that if moms post, post divorce are mostly staying home and reading books or watching movies or maybe getting together with their friends every once in a while, whereas dads are going out and buying motorcycles or taking trips, that those things are more Instagramable. It's the kind of thing that they're going to put out there more maybe to show that they're having fun. So there could be some image projection going along with this, particularly if that's reinforced by the way that divorced dads tend to be portrayed in the media. And so even if things are a little bit more complicated and realistic, the way that media and social media tend to amplify things might help to reinforce these stereotypes, even if the reality is more complex.

[B]

Wow, you're saying the shirtless pictures at the gym are projection. That's interesting.

[G]

I mean, it seems likely.

[B]

I'm curious though, like, do you have a theory about why there is not a divorced woman stereotype? And is that like a, do you think. I don't know, is that a bad, Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

[G]

I guess that's a good question. I mean, I think there are stereotypes of divorced women, but they're often not very positive ones. They're often seen as sort of bitter and angry. They're often portrayed as despite the fact that they are on average happier despite what the data show. And I think that is a way that the sort of stereotypes that do exist of divorced women, I would argue, are used to punish. Divorced women are used to say that, you know, you should be married. We live in a culture that still very much valorizes marriage and parenthood for all people. We've had decades of policy money dumped into marriage promotion programs, for example. And so I think these kinds of stereotypes, when we do see divorced women portrayed in media, the sort of angry, grumpy, wine drinking mom who's sitting at home all the time taking all the money. Exactly, exactly. The sort of greedy stereotypes here too, really portray this in ways that are designed, I would argue, to discourage women from divorcing, even when they're in these kinds of unequal relationships, that they might be inclined to want to leave.

[C]

I think back to that. J.D. vance got in trouble for that clip of telling women basically saying, like, you should stay together for the kids.

[E]

And this is one of the great tricks that I think the sexual revolution pulled on the American populace, which is this idea that, like, well, okay, these marriages were fundamentally, you know, they were, they were maybe even violent, but certainly they were unhappy. And so getting rid of them and making it easier for people to shift spouses, like they change their underwear, that's going to make people happier in the long term. And maybe it worked out for the moms and dads, though I'm skeptical. But it really didn't work out for the kids of those marriages in media.

[C]

And I think in real life people have this, well, couldn't you just like stick it out sort of like mentality to women a lot of times, like, how bad could it possibly have been?

[A]

Yeah.

[G]

And certainly the idea as you were suggesting, this perception that it's better for the kids if parents stay together and really that that's not what the data show, particularly if we're talking about high conflict marriages, if we're talking about marriages that have a risk of physical abuse or emotional abuse or financial abuse that these kinds of situations, it is much better for kids if their parents separate and are not in that situation together. It may be hard in the short term, but in the long term, kids are highly resilient and are able to navigate through those kinds of separations and divorces, and it can ultimately, ultimately lead to better outcomes.

[A]

In the end, by the time this episode comes out, I will be in a relationship that has a child in it.

[G]

And congratulations.

[A]

Thank you. Kind of a weird way to announce that, but I. First, for me, at first. At first I was gonna say that I'm about to have a kid, but by the time this comes out, I will have a kid. Anyway, I'm curious, you know, what are some of the factors I could be thinking about more that I could be more aware of to make sure or to at least, you know, get a little bit better in stopping some of the disparities that we've been talking about, Especially, like at home, like in the home.

[G]

This is a great question that I wish every new dad was asking. This is. This is a great question. So I think, you know, there's. One of the things that you can do is pay attention to the cognitive labor. This is one of the easiest things to overlook that it's easy to see the housework, it's easy to see the childcare. The parts that are easier to miss are the worry work that goes into raising children and managing a household. Who is thinking about, when is the next doctor visit coming up? Do we have it on the schedule? Do we have the right medications? When is my kid following all of the developmental milestones? Are there things that we need to be watching out for? The kind of worry work that often falls to women and we think of it as, well, that's just women being more anxious, women being the worriers. But it stems from the fact that women know that they're going to be the crisis management team. They're going to be the ones who to fix it if stuff goes wrong. And so if their kid gets sick, they're going to have to be the one to take them to the doctor more. They're going to have to be the one to do more of the care work. And so if men can take on more of that worry work or more of that cognitive labor of figuring out what needs to happen, monitoring for potential problems, figuring out potential solutions, contributing to the logistical planning and carrying out of tasks, and not just waiting for the list to show up, that's a great way to do this. And Sometimes you can do that by offering to take over domains, you know, saying, I'll handle everything related to, you know, healthcare, or I'll handle everything related to figuring out childcare. Some couples, it works really well that way. Other couples like to have, you know, a hand in everything together. There's not one right way or wrong way to do it, but making sure that it's not just about waiting for a list and being ready to kind of step in and help create the list on the front end, too. And I think the other piece is pushing back against stereotypes types. It's very easy for men to face criticisms if they're taking time off at work, if they're leaving early to go to a doctor's appointment, for example, and being willing to say, hey, no, I'm a new dad, I should be there. This is my role. We know from research that when men who are in high up positions in their companies, like CEOs and other executives or other high profile positions, when those men are willing to demonstrate, no, I'm taking time off, or no, I'm going to be an active and involved dad, that not only benefits their own kids, but it also helps to change the culture in the organizations that they work for in ways that can help to make that a model for other men. So especially being in such a visible, high profile position, you can be a model not only for the other men that you work with, but all the men who are listening to you too.

[A]

Wow, did you hear that, Devin? I think I'm gonna take more time off.

[B]

Well, I was gonna say you guys are already setting a model for that. Noah's not here today. You're gonna be gone soon. These guys love to take time off to subvert gender stereotypes.

[G]

I love it.

[A]

Jess, thanks so much for joining us. This is super illuminating.

[G]

Thanks so much for having me. It was great to chat with you.

[A]

All right. We just finished our conversation with Jess Calarco. I thought it was super interesting. What was something you guys found interesting about that?

[C]

Well, it makes so much sense and I guess I saw this in my own life. We were talking about before of like, when couples get divorced, how women actually spend less time on housework because they're not cleaning up after. And yes, I made a lot of sense seeing my dad live alone. I was like, oh, okay, this is what happens if someone is not cleaning up after you. And then I think her advice to you was really, really good of just like, we do think about, like, okay, guys, how do you help out? Let me do the laundry. Let Me do the dishes. We don't think about the things.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Like doctor's appointments and like, as my child develop, hitting these milestones, like, things like that which are work.

[B]

I think the other thing that was interesting that she said was about the fact that actually divorced women are. Tend to be happier and divorced men. And I believe that men tend to. To be sadder, which is really interesting because obviously that flies in the face of, you know, this kind of divorced stereotypes, which I guess the divorce stereotype kind of is. The. The presumption is that all of this is for show and underneath there's a deep sadness that's happened. But you really don't. But, but she. But Jess was right that, you know, you don't. The stereotypes that exist of divorced women, generally speaking, are, you know, it's kind of more of a negative. Yeah, it's. It's a little bit of the. Kind of. Right. Why? There's a little bit of the kind of wine, drinking wine, kind of bitter. There's some like, eat, pray, love type of stuff sometimes as well, which all, like, could be true in certain scenarios. But it's interesting to see that actually the reality is, is that women are happy.

[C]

Thank God this guy's out of the house.

[A]

Must be such a huge, huge, you know, weight off the shoulders.

[B]

Honestly.

[A]

No such thing as a production of Kaleidoscope content. Our executive producers are Kate Osborne and Mangesh Hatikadur. The show is created by Manny Fidel, Noah Friedman and Devin Joseph. The theme and credit song is by me, Manny, and the editing and mixing for this episode was done by by Steve Bone. Thank you to our guest host, Max Tani, and our experts, Micah Steinborn and Jessica Calarco. Be sure to check out Max's podcast over at Semaphore. It's called Mixed signals. Check out Dr. Steinborn's YouTube channel at Dr. Micah Steinborn. And check out Jessica Calarco's book, Holding It Together. If you like what you're hearing, be sure to leave us five stars wherever you're listening to this podcast and we'll see you next week.