A (2:13)

loan services llc/housing lender and MLS ID 35953 licensed by the Department of Financial

B (2:18)

Protection and Innovation under the California Residential Mortgage Lending Act.

A (2:20)

Conditions and restrictions may apply. Okay, we are back this week in lieu of Manny. We are joined by Rachel Askanazzi, journalist and founder of Throwing Spaghetti Media. Hi, Rachel.

B (2:32)

Welcome to the pod. Than of the pod. Friend of the pod.

A (2:37)

Always. Yeah, that's your title. Do you have Internet?

B (2:41)

I do have Internet.

A (2:42)

Okay. And do you like your isp?

B (2:45)

Not particularly.

A (2:46)

Okay, why not?

B (2:47)

I don't. I feel like it is constantly crapping out.

A (2:52)

It doesn't reach some of the rooms in my apartment.

B (2:55)

Oh, I love that. And they're like, oh, can't go through the wall. Like, why? Why can it not go through the walls?

A (3:02)

That's an issue. Because my apartment has walls.

B (3:04)

Yes, exactly.

A (3:05)

Devin, do you have Internet? Yeah, of course I have Internet. Okay, and how is that for you? I'm old school, so not only do I have Internet, I also have cable. Okay. All in one. I got, I got the bundle.

B (3:14)

The bundle.

A (3:15)

I'm a goal head. Yeah. I like watching my sports, my Mets and I don't want to have to figure out how to do that on the Internet. So yeah, I have both. I had Optimum for a while. It was pretty terrible, but it was my only option for most of the time I was at my apartment. So I would call them and complain and they would say, yeah, basically, well, what the hell are you going to do? Because you can't get anything else.

B (3:36)

Yeah.

A (3:36)

And I would be like, you're right. But I'm still upset. It's all pity. It's not working. It's similar issues. There's like, you know, signal issues. There'll be times where it's just down for no reason. Not even weather related. Over the last couple of years I've had Verizon bios, which started out really strong. When I first got it, I was like, whoa, this is so much better. Yeah, it's fiber or whatever they're saying. And it was in the beginning. Lately it's been not as great, but yeah, like I don't want to switch back to optimum, so I'm kind of stuck.

B (4:09)

It's rough.

A (4:10)

I also have Internet. My name is Noah. Yeah. But sometimes I don't. Unfortunately, when I want, you know, I'm paying for it and this is my issue. And as someone who has the video call for you. Yeah, you love to drop out. It's been much worse lately. I'll say it's been bit bad. Foreign. This call may be recorded. How can I help you today? My Internet is out.

B (4:37)

One moment please.

A (4:40)

So, yeah, I'm dropping out on calls.

B (4:41)

They won't give you the day back.

A (4:43)

Good luck.

B (4:44)

No, good luck trying to call. Get your money.

A (4:46)

Yeah. So yeah, that's what I've tried to do. I then I run speed tests with this company. I'll run them, I'll take screenshots every, you know, 10 minutes or something just so I have a document because I've called in the past. They say, okay, we can't do anything. I'll be like, oh, it's been bad since Tuesday. I'm calling on a Friday. So they're like, well, we can't do anything because we didn't run the test then. So they don't. They don't believe. They must know. And then. Yeah, it's like, you're saying they know I don't have another option. Nope. So the best I've got, like, after begging for, you know, spending basically my whole day on the phone with them, they'll give me, like, $5 back. Right. And I'm paying, you know, over a hundred dollars. Yeah. For this. I've upgraded my service, so I'm getting one gig just to hope that I can even get half of what they're offering, because that's kind of been my problem. I'm saying, like, okay, I'm paying for 500 megabytes. I'm not getting even close to that. And the upload speeds are even worse, which is, you know, to pull the curtain back. Aside from no such thing, I also edit podcasts and videos for other people who pay me. And if I can't, you know, upload a video can be a problem. I'm on the phone with someone, I'm gonna lose my job. I'm gonna lose my job, and I'm gonna have to move. I don't know what I'm gonna do. I'm not gonna be able to pay you anymore. Well, that's basically what I'm saying. I'm hoping just like, you know, and they're like, first of all, my wife was the account holder. They're like. They're like, who. Who are you talking to? I say the account is. Is Julia. They're like, so this is. This is not Julia. No.

B (6:14)

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

A (6:15)

Yeah, that's what I said. I was like, you don't know who you're on the phone with. You don't know. Julia can have. Also, like, why would I be. Why would I be calling? I don't know what I would even be doing if I wasn't suffering. What, scamming? Yeah. Like, I'm doing this to upgrade someone else's Internet. But, yeah, once I had to basically restart the whole process because they didn't believe that I was my wife, which is. It's true. You are not. They were right that I'm not my wife, but they don't. They don't. They shouldn't have known that. What's. What's wild is that's, like, my. My smallest issue with this isp, my Internet service provider. But what's most frustrating is sometimes I've had people from competing ones come to my door, knock on my door and say, hey, are you Interested in this? I go, I mean, yeah, potentially, but can you do it? And then they're like, oh, we. We actually don't offer this here. I've had this, too.

B (6:59)

I don't know.

A (7:01)

They're asking to get interest, so then maybe they can push for.

B (7:04)

I thought about that today, too.

A (7:06)

You would think the people. Because I've had this, too, they come to your door, they say, hey, do you want. They were doing this with me. Come to your actual door. Yes.

B (7:14)

I've never had that.

A (7:15)

They're in the building. Not even know how you got up here. Fifth floor, walk up. Yeah. That's actually very impressive. Who let you in, first of all? But then you come and they're off here and they're talking about, hey, yeah, have you thought about switching? I said, yeah, I've thought about it. But last I checked, you guys don't offer the service. I think about it all the time. They pull out their little iPad and say, yeah, we don't offer the service, but glad to know you're interested. Yeah, you just wasted both of our time. So you could have looked that up. Yeah. Earlier. Yeah. How? Don't you notice you're walking around here for the. The company and you don't know that you can't service me? I want to know if, you know, these ISPs count as where. You know, in my neighborhood, say, Crown Heights, Brooklyn. I only have one option. Why is that not a monopoly? Sounds like a monopoly to me. Yeah. So after the break, we're going to talk to someone who hopefully can answer some of these questions for us. And maybe I'll be better equipped to find a new Internet provider without moving.

B (8:16)

Here's hoping.

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That's loseweightnow.

B (8:52)

Co. Hey, this is U.S. olympic gold medalist Tara Davis Woodhull.

A (8:57)

And I'm U.S. paralympic gold medalist Hunter Woodhull.

B (8:59)

As athletes, our lives are about having

A (9:01)

a clear path and a team that you can absolutely trust.

B (9:04)

So when it came to getting the

A (9:05)

best mortgage, we chose PennyMac.

B (9:07)

PennyMac is proud to be the official mortgage provider of Team USA. And you learn more at pennymac.com pennymac Loan Services, LLC.

A (9:15)

Equal Housing Lender, NMLS. ID 35953 licensed by the Department of Financial Protection and Innovation under the California Residential Mortgage Lending Act.

B (9:22)

Conditions and restrictions may apply. This is Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem?

A (9:26)

Business software is expensive. And when you buy software from lots of different companies, it's not only expensive, it gets confusing. Slow to use, hard to integrate. Odoo solves that because all Odoo software is connected on a single affordable platform. Save money without missing out on the features you need. Odoo has no hidden costs and no

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Check out Odoo at O D O o dot com.

A (10:05)

That's O D O o dot com. All right, we're back. I'm Noah Devin.

B (10:17)

Rachel.

A (10:18)

We're talking about ISPs, aka Internet service providers, and why I only have the option of one to try to answer some of these questions and hopefully maybe work towards solutions. We're going to talk to Emily Stewart, senior correspondent at Business Insider. Hi, Emily.

B (10:35)

Hello. Thank you for having me.

A (10:37)

Well, introduce yourself a little bit and some of the reporting you've done.

B (10:40)

Yeah. So I'm a reporter at Business Insider. What is my b. Who knows? What do I cover? I write about consumerism, write about the economy. I do sometimes write about scams, but more like the scam that is capitalism, the big scam, which is, like, where the ISP stuff comes in. Like, candidly, a few years ago, I was very mad at my Internet company and I was like, well, this is stupid. Like, how in the world is this happening? I live in, like, one of the biggest cities in the world.

A (11:09)

That's the thing.

B (11:10)

We're in New York. This can't be this difficult. And, like, you know, that is the scam. That is the world that we live in. That isn't like somebody calling your grandma and telling her you're kidnapped. It's like, you know, you're talking to a giant company being like, why is my service always worse? And. And it's somehow constantly more expensive. And yet here we are. And you know that I am trapped.

A (11:33)

Exactly. So, Emily, can we first start? How are Internet service providers set up in the us how are they made?

B (11:45)

I mean, like, as much as, like, we think of the Internet now as like, WI fi, right? Like, it's actually physical infrastructure in cables. And I think like, that's like, I am not an Internet how it works expert, but I think sometimes, like, people forget there's kind of like a backbone of, like, fiber optic cables that go across the country. And then you get into, like, regional providers, and then you get into the more local providers. Usually. I think when we think about what's wrong with the Internet and who we're dealing with, what we kind of are talking about is, like, the last mile, which is whatever cable that's connected to your door. And so that's kind of, I think, what the issue is. But it works, you know, like cable companies in the 90s. Like, I grew up in rural Wisconsin, and my dad used to, like, chase down the cable guy, being like, when are you coming so that I can have cable? And if you think about the names and, like, the companies you have, your cable company and your Internet company are the same company, right? Like, if I want cable, which do I want that nowadays? I don't know. Some people do. They're probably my Internet company, too, and even my phone company.

A (12:51)

Yeah, we just already had the cable lines and we kind of added it.

B (12:54)

I mean, we had the cable lines, but it is like, you know, it's an ongoing project. Like, I remember starting this, like, five years ago, and it was like, one in five New Yorkers doesn't have Internet. Like, that's not the case anymore. Like, I was talking to somebody works for the city this morning, and I was like, you know, are. Does everybody have the Internet now? And she was like, well, like, yes, but some of them can't afford it and some of them don't want it. But, like, you know, I think a lot of the issue is this is like a big infrastructure project when you think about it. Like, you have to dig up streets, you have poles. Like, you have all of these things. And so I think kind of the story of the Internet, not only in New York, but everywhere, is like, once you've dug up the street and you've put in the cable, nobody wants to go behind you to do that again. So, like, your competitor's not going to come in. And also, you spent all of this time and money putting in these cables. Like, you're not eager to be like, hey, I'm optimum, like, AT T. Do you guys want in on this too? Like, nobody's doing that. And so I think that's the issue. And, like, you know, this is kind of like a rural urban problem. Like, I think sometimes, like, we hear a lot about rural broadband, which I know is not really, like what we're talking about here. But, like, they are, like, different types of issues. In rural, I don't know, like Idaho, they don't necessarily have broadband because it's not lucrative for, like, a big company to. To send out the Internet out there. Right. And in, like, urban areas, it's like a little bit of a different story. I mean, some of it's just like the monopoly problem, and some of it's the expense problem. And that's really, like, everywhere. Like, average Internet bills are like 60, 70, $80, like, across the country. And you only have access to the Internet if you have $70 to spend, and not everybody has $70 to spend.

A (14:32)

In a situation that we're all in separately, did Optimum just say, like, hey, we're going to take this area. How did that land grab happen?

B (14:41)

Yeah, I mean, a lot of it is, like, you know, city will say, or municipality, whatever, will say, we need Internet here. So, like, you make a deal with a company and you say, all right, we're going to let you come in and like, maybe we'll give you some subsidies, maybe we won't. Or maybe, like, you'll promise up, in order to, like, wire up our city or our area, you will give us, like, a public access TV channel, like, whatever it would be. And there's a lot of. It's cable, too.

A (15:06)

Yeah.

B (15:06)

And so now you, like, wind up in a situation where there's just all of these, like, natural monopolies, basically. Like I said before, like, it kind of makes sense to some extent. Like, if you built out the whole thing, like, you're not going to be super eager to let somebody else do it. It's also a little bit complicated because a lot of states also have laws that saying, like, certain municipalities can't do their own broadband. And so, like, we've really kind of let the companies take over. And companies don't want to compete. Right. Like, they want to make as much money as they can for as many people as they can and deal with as few competitors as possible. And so, like, we wind up with this situation where, like, yeah, maybe this has happened for a reason, but also, like, is this ideal when you are calling your Internet provider and, like, begging for a discount?

A (15:58)

So I asked how Internet service compares to public utilities like electricity, gas, or water. Emily said, the stronger comparison is to the mail, meaning we don't think about the postal service as a utility. But if it was completely privatized, the reality is many areas, like, say, rural Montana, simply wouldn't have the Mail, because it wouldn't make financial sense for the providers. But access to the Internet, even though most people do need it in some capacity at least, is held in the hands of private companies. So does it mean in a practical sense, let's say electricity or water. Right. Like, so like New York State is building the infrastructure, you know, for the most part for, for those things. And then if you're building a building, obviously you're, you know, building the pipes within your building. But is the idea that, like, because those are public utilities, the city is investing in creating those lines or whatever versus, like the Internet is more reliant on, hey, Comcast, if you're optimum, if you're going to come in here, you are going to build out the infrastructure because that's not our responsibility.

B (17:03)

Right. And like, maybe we will give you some subsidies or like make some special agreements with you.

A (17:08)

Yeah, but like incentivize you to do it.

B (17:11)

Right. Like, hey, also if we give you a bunch of money to like build out these lines and like, oh, you guys had other expensive uses on, like, there you go. And that's kind of, I think, been the story, like across kind of the Internet being built out is like, you know, companies are making deals with cities, with states, with governments, and like, you know, a company's incentives are just different than like.

A (17:34)

Yeah, it's basically purely a market thing where it's like, we know tons of people live here and need Internet, so we'll provide for them. It's not like we all agree. Everyone agrees people need water. Yeah. So let's get the water there. It's like most people want Internet and people will buy it, but it's not a necessity in the same way yet. Or as we see it.

B (17:54)

Yeah, I think as we see it is probably the key because I think it's like now become almost as much of a necessity to live, to work, to pay bills, to literally do so many things. Schooling even.

A (18:09)

Yeah.

B (18:09)

Even somebody who's disconnected, theoretically, banking or something like you. There's so many things you do need it for that. It's like, at what point are we gonna realize that it is actually a necessity? The same way electricity wasn't always a necessity and then it became one. Right. Well, if you like, think back to the pandemic, even like those pictures of kids sitting outside of a McDonald's to do schoolwork, those were kids that didn't have intern Internet at home.

A (18:44)

After the break. Am I fighting a monopoly? New year new you begin at loseweightnow co and make this the year you finally feel in control with orderly meds, access proven GLP1 tirzepatide starting as low as $149 a month. It's simple, doctor guided and delivered right to your home so you can finally focus on feeling healthier and more confident. Get started today at loseweightnow.

B (19:14)

Co.

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Individual results may vary. Visit loseweightnow. Co and get started today. That's loseweightnow.

B (19:19)

Co. Hey, this is U.S. olympic gold medalist Tara Davis Woodhull.

A (19:24)

And I'm U.S. paralympic gold medalist Hunter Woodhull.

B (19:26)

As athletes, our lives are about having

A (19:28)

a clear path and a team that you can absolutely trust.

B (19:31)

So when it came to getting the

A (19:32)

best mortgage, we chose PennyMac.

B (19:34)

PennyMac is proud to be the official mortgage provider of Team USA and you learn more at pennymac.com PennyMac Loan Services

A (19:42)

LLC equal housing lender and MLS ID 35953 licensed by the Department of Financial Protection and Innovation under the California Residential Mortgage Lending Act.

B (19:49)

Conditions and restrictions may apply. This is Jacob Goldstein from what's yous Problem?

A (19:53)

Business software is expensive.

B (19:55)

And when you buy software from lots

A (19:57)

of different companies, it's not only expensive, it gets confusing. Slow to use, hard to integrate. Odoo solves that because all Odoo software is connected on a single affordable platform. Save money without missing out on the features you need. Odoo has no hidden costs and no

B (20:14)

limit on features or data.

A (20:15)

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B (20:28)

Check out Odoo at O D O o dot com.

A (20:32)

That's O d O o dot com

B (20:37)

M O M O P O L Y M O N O P O L Y.

A (20:47)

Can you first define, and we've thrown around a little bit, can you define a monopoly? And then I want to see if this is one.

B (20:53)

I mean, monopoly is basically like a company where it's the only game in town. And like in town, I mean, but like a specific market, not in the world. I mean, you think about it in a lot of different ways. Like a lot of people would say like Amazon is a monopoly, right? Like in terms of just E commerce and like it as much as like maybe Walmart's a competitor. Like is it, I don't know. Or like De Beers, the diamond company, for a long time was the monopoly. Sometimes when I think about monopolies, I also think about. This sounds boring, but oligopolies, which is sometimes and I think it's a lot more common across our economy. It's like a handful of companies really like, control the show. If you think about like airlines, right? It's like what American, Delta, United, you know, and then a couple of smaller players, you know, phones, T Mobile, AT&T Verizon and T Mobile actually merged with Sprintly a couple of years ago saying, like, we have to be bigger so that we can compete with these even bigger guys. And like, come on. I am a little bit of a monopoly nut. Like, I try not to be, like, too bad. But like, it is one of those things when, like, when you start to see it, you really see it everywhere. When you realize that, like what you think is like your cute little craft beer is made by, is owned at least by Anheuser Busch. So crazy. You know, it really is like, oh, man, like, there's no such thing as small business, right?

A (22:06)

Yeah. You're just seeing a different label or logo or something. Yeah. Do you think monopolies are bad? And why or what are the issues?

B (22:14)

I mean, yes, in an ideal, like healthy economy, we want competition, right? And the big problem with a monopoly or a gnome oligopoly is when companies don't have to compete when they have so much power, consumers lose out, workers lose out, et cetera. The way that we kind of deal with monopolies and like, antitrust policy right now is very much the consumer standard. It's like, is the consumer spending more money? And if they are, then that is bad. If two drug companies sell insulin and they're increasing prices like in tandem.

A (22:47)

Bad.

B (22:47)

Right. I think also though, like, sometimes we don't think about the other consequences of monopolies. Like, it's also bad for labor, Right. It's bad for wages if you have a ton of power and workers can only work at one company. Like, there you go. Or like suppliers. Like, if you want to sell at Walmart, you have to do what Walmart says. Same thing with Amazon. Like, I've done a lot of reporting, like talking to small businesses. Most of them will say, like, you know, with Amazon, it's like a real trade off. Like, I have to be there because otherwise I will not reach people. Also, like, I have to deal with, you know, exactly their terms in terms of how much of a cut they take in terms of their return policies. You want there to be more options. And I think, like, that's where like, we see like the fewer options there are that kind of just shows up in ways that are bad economically. But even culturally, like, you want to Feel like, oh, like a small business can make it or like there is some level of variety in the world.

A (23:44)

Can you tell the story about the diapers company and Amazon? Because I feel like this comes up time and time again of like Amazon, Amazon wanting to get into a space and then just lowering the prices and then like basically buying out the company.

B (23:57)

Yeah. So basically I think it was like 2010, Amazon sees this diaper company with D and was like, hey, hey, hey, like we would like to buy you. Like, looks like you guys are doing good work. And like the company's like, no, no, we can like do this on our own, we'll grow on our own. And then Amazon like turns around and launches basically its own version of this diaper service and it like kills the company and they ultimately have to agree to be sold to Amazon.

A (24:26)

Let's check in on some of today's top corporate news.

B (24:29)

According with to two people rather with

A (24:31)

knowledge of the matter. Amazon near an agreement to buy Quidsi.

B (24:36)

This is the owner of Diapers.com and Soap.com for $540 million.

A (24:41)

Amazon found an unlikely competitor in the company which in its early days simply brought I don't know the place of

B (24:47)

diapers to Costco and ship them to customers. Quincy plans to ship a 500 million diapers this year.

A (24:53)

Expect sales on the whole to increase

B (24:55)

67% to $300 million. An agreement may come as soon as today. And I think that's where like Amazon is like a tricky one. And they will say like, we're absolutely not a monopoly, like, look at how we keep prices low. And like, sure, but also nobody can compete with Amazon. You have to be on there. And like, you know, they also say they're keeping prices low, which, sure, probably, but also like, there is a world where I think at least a reasonable person could say if there were more Amazons, would prices be even lower? Because you can undercut the diaper company. Once the diaper company's dead, then you can charge, you know, whatever you want. Basically. I feel like the prices on Amazon aren't even that low anymore anymore. Like when it first became a thing, it was like, oh my God, you're paying nothing for all of these products. And now it's like the same price, if not maybe a little more than like me going downstairs to the convenience store and like figuring that out.

A (25:50)

Yep. Following that, can we kind of broaden out on U.S. antitrust policy? Can you give us in broad strokes maybe how attitudes have changed as far as the government's role in it over the past century.

B (26:08)

Yeah, I mean, I think that, you know, like, antitrust policy dates back to 1800, 1900s, like Clayton act, the Sherman Act. And like there are certain things around, like, right, like if two companies are merging, like, yeah, is that anti competitive? Does that mean there will be less competition, that they will be bad? The big story, at least like in modern day is like kind of what's happened since like the 70s and 80s. Antitrust policy became like much more market focused. Kind of like the market will take care of itself. And basically the idea is if I'm an entrepreneur and I have a really good idea and my company gets really big, other people will look around and be like, I should do that too. And then they will come in and they will create businesses and they will kind of compete with me and therefore, like push my prices down. And that's kind of been the theory of the case. We can look at the result over the past 40 years and say, like, how has this worked? And again, like, we have four airlines, like three big beer companies. What these companies will say is, three of us is enough. But like, is it like, I don't know. And then you see, like under the Biden administration, you have Lina Khan come into the FTC and she's pretty aggressive doing big cases and, you know, trying to like enforce these antitrust laws. And she has a different kind of theory of the case. The idea is that if a company is being abusive towards its customers, those customers can go elsewhere. But if you see a persistent pattern of a company raising prices, degrading service, making it impossible to actually get somebody on the phone, all these big and small ways that the consumer experience is worse and you don't see defections. Similarly, you can see the same thing on the worker side that can be direct evidence of monopoly power, that companies are at a stage, stage where they can make things worse without losing out in the market, then even like the Trump administration is keeping some of these cases around against, like Meta, against Google. But I think, you know, we also have to realize the courts have a role in this as well. Like just because the DOJ sues and says Meta, you shouldn't have been able to have Instagram and WhatsApp. Doesn't mean that like a judge is going to agree.

A (28:15)

So then from here in Brooklyn and I can only have one option for Internet, does that qualify as a monopoly in your eyes and then in the eyes of the law?

B (28:26)

I mean, I think so. I don't think it's a monopoly that the FTC or like Tish James, like the AG of New York could like come after and be like, yeah, but I think that like in general, like, yes, I will say on the Internet I as a person who also has one option like it is getting better to some extent with wireless and like 5G basically. Is that like an exact competitor? I don't know.

A (28:50)

Hey neighbor. You switched to T Mobile home Internet, yet it runs on T Mobile's wireless 5G network. So all you got to do is plug in one core T mobile 5G home Internet. But so this idea of 5G is that hey, you don't need to get Internet installed in your home with a router and the WI fi because we're going to use the same. Basically the same way you get Internet on your phone. Yeah, it's essentially hotspotting. Yeah, you can get the same process for your computer through that same. Is that the thing?

B (29:17)

Yeah, I mean, of thinking. And like I feel like T mobile is constantly like, don't you want to come over here? And it's like, I know, but like is that, is that good? And like is it as good? And I think that's a question. But I do think you can look at the situation here like in your own little neighborhood and say like this is a monopoly and maybe it's not like exactly optimum's fault or whoever's fault that they're doing this, but like they're enjoying this situation and like you are not.

A (29:41)

Okay, thank you. So I'm going to accept that the Internet is a monopoly. How is the US approach to antitrust? How does that differ from like Europe and other in Asia and other areas around the world? Dina.

B (29:57)

Europe in general has just been more aggressive on corporate power. I read a book by this economist named Thomas Philippine and he talked about in France with the Internet specifically, what they did was put in a regulation that required Internet companies to lease out like that last mile I was talking about of their wires, like, like the little bit. And that would let competitors come in and that did bring down Internet prices. Because that way I can be like, hey, let me in a little bit on the game and then I can like, you know, do a little bit less. Like maybe that will be better. Something similar is kind of happening in the US right now with phone companies. You maybe know like Mint Mobile, right? Like the Ryan Reynolds thing. Hey, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. Did you know that Mint's unlimited Premium Wireless for $15 a month is back and that is like basically the big phone companies like at And t. Whatever have extra space or whatever and they will let other players get in and offer a cheaper option. And so that's something like Mint Mobile,

A (30:56)

the bigger company in this instance, they just don't want to spend the time or resources to use that last mile well. Or they are, they have to marketing.

B (31:06)

I mean like on like the phone thing. It's a marketing thing, right? Like yeah, I don't know how many people like. Or like I saw Ryan Reynolds.

A (31:13)

Yeah.

B (31:14)

But like it does allow them to like get into like more niche markets. And as like you know, as much as these companies, you know they are very big. There are markets that they want to get into and like if that's a way to get in, like, sure.

A (31:27)

So then say in, in France or some. Or somewhere else. Do they tend to have less of these issues as far as people not having choice for Internet, Dina, you know,

B (31:37)

at least it's cheaper. Yes, it's cheaper, but also like you'll have like more opt. And that's ideal. Like it's not saying like, oh these companies can't exist anymore. It's like, yeah, you should like play by like fair rules of the game. And like a lot of these companies we know have like a lot of ways of keeping competitors out. So that's how we kind of wind

A (31:58)

up where we are policy wise. If you know, they give you a big pen tomorrow and you get to write up some policy for the United States. A big beautiful bill. Yeah, it's a fix the Internet issue for me for, for Noah specifically. I mean like what are the sorts of policies you think would help then? Like do you think would be more of these kind of last mile things or. Or what?

B (32:23)

A few years ago I did a little bit of reporting on like Chattanooga, Tennessee and I think they're like kind of a good example of what you can do that's actually like kind of small and like this is one where like maybe the answer is like yes, we make like the Internet of public utility. But basically what they did is they had like, you know, their electric grid or whatever and they were like, we're going to use this to create like a public Internet that's like pretty cheap for people, like 10 bucks a month or whatever. Chattanoogan will now be the first to have a community wide fiber optic network delivering up to 10 gigabits of Internet service.

A (32:53)

It's the first of its kind in

B (32:55)

the US it will be offered to every home and business in a 600 mile area.

A (33:00)

A study recently released by UTC Finance

B (33:03)

Professor Bento Lobo shows the gig network helped the Chattanooga area generate at least

A (33:08)

2800 new jobs and close to $900 million.

B (33:13)

And they did it, and they really had some, like, pushback. Like, one of the big telecom companies, like, sued them, and they did wind up with, like, some limits. Like, they weren't allowed to do this, like, outside of the city limits. But I think, like, that's something that could really work. It's like, you know, a town doing this now. I think the problem there is, like, something like 20 states have laws, like, saying that municipalities can't do this. That is the power of lobbying. So I think, you know, that's a tricky one. Rural broadband is a very popular thing to say politically, and there have been a lot of efforts at that. The tricky part there is sometimes these companies, like, get these subsidies, they get these plans, and, like, does that mean they are building out necessarily? No. You know, so that kind of stuff, it's something that, like, really has to be taken care of at every level. Like, it feels to me like if we could just have these companies have to lease out at least some of their stuff, like, that would help a lot. Like, and I'm not asking for eight Internet providers, but I feel like if I just had two, like, I would

A (34:21)

have more than one would be nice. Yeah, exactly.

B (34:23)

I would just, like, I could call and be like, I'm gonna leave, and they wouldn't be able to say, like, no, you're not.

A (34:29)

That's all I want, too. Because even if. Even if they gave. They offered me the $10, horrible Internet option, I would. I wouldn't use it, but I would be happy that it's there. It made me feel slightly better. All right, so I guess for now, the best thing we can do is call and hope whoever's on the other side take some pity, and then maybe I'll be writing to the mayor about this last mile. Is there any. Who should I talk to about government is like, is anyone advocating, you know. Yeah. So we know the lobbies are part of why this is an issue. Are there any lobbies? For me?

B (35:05)

I mean, there are, like, there is some action, like, in New York on, like, at least helping for paying. Like, I think at the state level, there's some stuff going on. Like, it's hard. I mean, if only because, like. I mean, we have it. Like, in New York, we have, like, a giant budget shortfall right now.

A (35:20)

Right.

B (35:20)

And, like, as much as I wish that, like, Zoran, number one, was like, I need bios to also come To Flatbush. Like, it is not happening right now. So I think, like, I mean, I do. And maybe this is, like, because my dad was like this. I really do check to see if I have other options. Like, pretty regularly. Like, I have a couple months ago, like, I saw, like, a Verizon truck outside, and I was like, do I go ask him? Like, are you going to come? It's like, the building next door. They take it, but yours doesn't.

A (35:50)

Like, the apartment upstairs will take. That's unbelievable.

B (35:53)

Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, otherwise, I think just, like, call and, like, I don't know, should you be nice? Should you threaten to leave?

A (36:01)

I start off nice.

B (36:02)

Yeah. Try and, like, get the other person's vibe, and maybe they're having a good day, and then you can have a year of a discount before it's bad again.

A (36:12)

And I did make my wife add me as an authorized user of the account, so I don't need to hide my identity anymore. Change your voice. I don't want to be, like, vague when I'm saying, like, yeah, the account is Julia. Yes, I'm calling on behalf. Yeah, well, thank you, Emily. This is great. I can't say I feel better about the situation, but at least I know something more.

B (36:32)

I'm sorry.

A (36:35)

I won't take it out on you. Yeah, I appreciated that.

B (36:38)

Like, we're not. Not doing something so simple and easy.

A (36:42)

It does just suck. It does make you feel better. Maybe I'll move to Chattanooga.

B (36:46)

Yeah, maybe then explore stuff over there. I mean, it's probably nice there.

A (36:51)

Yeah, I'll get some space. So this conversation was very informative, validating, and pretty disappointing as far as the state of my Internet situation. And then guess what happened? While I was editing this episode together, my Internet went out. So I did what I've done many times before and called up my isd. Welcome to. This call may be recorded. How can I help you today? My Internet is kind of going in and out today, and I want to make sure it's fixed. And I would love to get a. You know, any sort of reimbursement, because now I have to redo a bunch of work, and I'm worried, you know, I won't be able to get my work done today. Might lose my job. I was extremely frustrated. I've done this song and dance dozens of times and received pretty much nothing in return.

B (37:42)

I just would like to tell you I'm very sorry about what happened. I know it must be very frustrating for you.

A (37:47)

Yeah.

B (37:47)

But don't worry. I'm gonna do my best to help you as much as I can, but

A (37:51)

this time was different.

B (37:55)

I'm gonna apply you a credit and it's gonna be the same amount of credit for five years. Your bill is going to be $102 for the same Internet speed you have right now.

A (38:07)

Okay, so.

B (38:09)

Right. I submitted the order for you and everything is good to go. Is there anything else would you like to assist you with?

A (38:14)

No, that's all. Thank you.

B (38:16)

You're welcome sir. It was a pleasure to speak with you today. May God bless you and I hope you have a wonderful day.

A (38:22)

So maybe a competitor is moving into my neighborhood. Is 5G wireless or Ryan Reynolds taking over? I'm not quite sure. But to the benevolent customer service king on the other side of the line this time, no such stagnation salutes you. Thank you for your service. No such thing as a production of Kaleidoscope Content Our executive producers are Kate Osborne and Mangesh Hatakeder. This show was created by Manny Fadell, Noah Friedman and Devin Joseph. Theme and credits song by Manny Fadal. Our guests this week are Emily Stewart and fill in co host Rachel Oskanazi. Visit Nosuchthing show to subscribe to our newsletter for related links and more. If you have feedback for us or a question, our email is mannynoadevonmail.com you can also leave us a voicemail by calling the number in our show notes. And while I have you, please leave us a five star rating and leave a nice review. It really helps a lot and we'll be back next week with a new episode. Thanks.

B (39:47)

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