← Noble Blood
Loading summary
Transcript130 lines
- [00:00]
Dana Schwartz
This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.
- [00:05]
Ryan Seacrest
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway.
- [00:08]
Albertsons/Safeway Announcer
It's stock up savings time now through March 31st. Spring in for storewide deals that earn four times the points. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible items from Hunts, Nerds, Pillsbury, Lowry's, Breyers, Quaker and Culture Pop.
- [00:21]
Ryan Seacrest
Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings.
- [00:24]
Albertsons/Safeway Announcer
Stack up those rewards to save even more.
- [00:27]
Ryan Seacrest
Enjoy savings on top of savings when
- [00:28]
Albertsons/Safeway Announcer
you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pick up or delivery restrictions apply. See website for full terms and conditions.
- [00:36]
Ikea Announcer
Ever feel like your bedroom's shrinking? Don't worry, you don't have to sell your favorite things to make space with Ikea Bedroom Storage Solutions. Think dressers, wardrobes, full closet systems, even storage boxes. You can keep it all. Your vintage band tees safe, those limited edition sneakers, plenty of room. And yes, your childhood teddy bear gets a spot too. Don't sell what you love. Store it instead with Ikea Bedroom Storage Solutions. Shop now at Ikea US Bedroomstorage.
- [01:06]
Albertsons/Safeway Announcer
Come on.
- [01:07]
Nate (Verizon Ad)
No, it's just a golf lesson, champ.
- [01:10]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
Lucinna. I can't see that. Hyundai Santa Fe.
- [01:12]
Albertsons/Safeway Announcer
Yeah, I only paid
- [01:16]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
Finish up on your own.
- [01:17]
Nate (Verizon Ad)
I gotta run.
- [01:18]
Hyundai Announcer
Deal's so right it almost feels wrong. The Hyundai Getaway sales event get 0% APR for 60 months plus 0 pay for 90 days on the Hyundai Tucson, Tucson Hybrid, Santa Fe or Santa Fe Hybrid. Now during the Hyundai Getaway sales event.
- [01:31]
Albertsons/Safeway Announcer
Hurry.
- [01:31]
Hyundai Announcer
Offer ends March 31. Call 562-314-4603 for details.
- [01:36]
Dana Schwartz
Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and Mild from Erin Menke. Listener discretion advised.
- [01:49]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
Hi, this is Dana Schwartz and I am so thrilled to be here today with a very special interview. I'm talking to Dr. Hugh do, who's a professor at the University of East in the uk. He focuses, I think, primarily on medieval topics. Your lecture in medieval subjects, but very exciting to my interest is he served as the historical consultant on the truly excellent television series A Night of the Seven Kingdoms. And I just want to be very clear, this is a sponsored episode. No one is paying me to. I just genuinely personally love a television show so much and so I'm personally so delighted to be speaking with you. Dr. Dougherty, thank you for joining.
- [02:33]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
It's a pleasure to be here just
- [02:36]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
to dive right in. Can you talk a little bit about your field and your subjects that you primarily focus on when you're not consulting for historical fantasy?
- [02:47]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
I have an expertise in 10th and 11th and 12th century Europe. And as a result of my own choice, I wanted to teach, I mean, fascinated with ancient history. So I teach a module on the Roman Empire and I also teach a module on the Hundred Years War. So I know a little about a lot.
- [03:09]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
Well, that's sort of the motto for this podcast where I've covered several thousands of years of history. What I love about A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms and Game of Thrones in general is it very clearly takes place in a fantasy world, but there are analogues to real British history. I think it's pretty clear that the original Game of Thrones series is a take on the wars of the roses in the 15th century. And the House of the Dragon, sort of the prequel series seems inspired by the Anarchy, the period with Empress. When does the Night of the Seven Kings, I'm going to say, take place again? Even though it is very much a fantasy?
- [03:56]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
I agree with everything you've said about, by the way, about A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. I've only seen the first two episodes at the moment.
- [04:04]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
Oh, you got to get on it. The ending, really, they really stick the ending.
- [04:08]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
I know. I just thought they were marvelous. And in fact, they were so good they made me go back and watch the House of Dragon, which I had not seen. And I'm only sort of halfway through season one, but absolutely spellbound in answer to your really interesting observation and question by noting that I think George R.R. martin is a superb historian. He knows his stuff. It's not just he knows chronology and reigns and personalities, but he understands the operation of power in these societies like few other people do. And I think he's done a fantastic job. And often, as I've said, that Game of Thrones, House of Dragon and now Knight of Seven Kingdoms are often more accurate in how they represent the texture of society than series and films that are allegedly about the Middle Ages. So I think that's an important point to note. I think Night of the Seven Kingdoms, when I talked to Ira Parker, the writer and showrunner, about the period, he'd asked George R.R. martin what was the sort of, you know, that if he had to pin it to a particular century, which century would it be? And George R.R. martin came back with the 14th. And that is, as you know, it is the age of the Tournament and of the first two thirds of the Hundred Years War.
- [05:44]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
So how did you. Obviously, you know a lot about the Hundred Years War and this period. How did you connect with Ira Parker, who created the show alongside George R.R. martin and the team at it's just
- [05:56]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
luck I've done this before. It all started by somebody. When I was at Oxford, I was a research fellow and someone at the history faculty got. Received a phone call from a film company who needed somebody to advise on something else. This is many years ago. And the person who answered the phone said, oh, I know someone. So I said yes to that. And I've been sort of picking up the phone or answering emails ever since. So it was word of mouth, essentially. So it was a great joy to be asked as a fan of Game of Thrones long before all of this, it was an honor to be asked. And essentially it came down to Ira and myself having these interviews with Ira, I think, in la and myself here in Norwich, in Norfolk, in England, just discussing tournament culture, knightly politics, warfare, 100 years war. It was just fantastic because Ira wanted detail. You know, more detail, the better. And he had lots of fascinating questions. It was a real joy to sort of be engaged in the creative process at an early stage. You know, I've been on productions where I've been invited in at the very last minute, and then to some extent, everything is fixed. While with this, I could suggest things that could be then fed into the script and the writing.
- [07:31]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
It's very exciting to me what this show did. And like you said, it captures the texture of the medieval world, obviously, even though it takes place in a fantasy world. But what a Knight of the Seven Kingdoms does that other Game of Thrones series don't do is it's very focused on a brief period of time rather than, you know, spanning years. We are focused on one tournament. Can you tell us a little bit about tournament culture was like in the 1300s?
- [08:03]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
I would start by saying that there is a sort of. There was a knightly culture that united all of Europe. So the same men who on battlefields are trying to kill each other are on the tournament fields, interacting with each other as competitors and sportsmen and as colleagues and as fellow diners and feasters. It's an aspect of elite culture that draws men and women from across Europe. So it's something that they share. So while at the same time they're often killing each other in the great battlefields and sieges of the Hundred Years War. At the same time, in moments of truces or peace or sometimes interacting with these campaigns, they are also participating in these tournaments. They were splendid opportunities for the elite of Europe to gather, to show off their wealth, their accoutrements, their gear, their households. And the comparison I've always made is that tournaments were much like film festivals in that it was as much about what was happening after the film showings, the soirees, the dinners, as what's happening in the. In the film showings. And so it was as much about what's happening off the tournament field as on it. There's no doubt that there is. The principal action is the demonstration of skill at arms on the tournament field for all to see. And then this will occupy each day, and then in the evenings, there'll be feasting and dancing and poetry and interaction between competitors and between women and families and households. And I think that the Knight of the Seven Kingdoms did a brilliant job in bringing that out, that interaction that happens off the tournament field. So there is great drama on the field. And that drama could be. It could be just knights torning against each other, but they might also reenact episodes from antiquity, from the classical world or from the legendary world. So it develops in Spain, actually, this notion that knights would hold a bridge and would defy any other knight to cross the bridge, or that they would reenact a battle of King Arthur.
- [10:30]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
It's like children playing Red Rover, King of the.
- [10:34]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
Absolutely. It's as much about reenactment and display. It's a celebration of the aristocratic imagination.
- [10:45]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
What I always found you brought up King Arthur. I've always found it personally fascinating that to a modern layperson, their conception of King Arthur, if they're imagining, is in the 14th century as a knight of chivalry, when, of course, King Arthur, who didn't exist, if he did exist, would have been, you know, 9th century. But I find it very interesting that our popular image of this character is in the era where he was popular.
- [11:12]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
Absolutely. I know of medievalists who sort of. Who don't like the kind of thing I do, who, you know, laugh at or comment on sort of making a fantasy world accurate and to give it texture and so on. But I think what's really interesting is that the kind of world that George R.R. martin has created is one that any 14th, 15th century audience would have loved. I mean, the tales of knightly drama, of heroes rising through the ranks. This is that world of Arthur that they love reading about, hearing about and reenacting. So there is actually a nice continuation between the, as you say, the legendary world of Arthur that they believe in and they love, and that has shaped Western culture. You know, the pre Raphaelites, Wagner, Excalibur, up to Game of Thrones. It's part of, in a way, a shared Tradition that we are still buying into.
- [12:14]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
They were celebrating King Arthur as a fictional knight. The same way we're talking about Sir Duncan.
- [12:21]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
Absolutely. Absolutely. And in the same way that people who watch the Knight of Seven Kingdoms on a Sunday evening in the States or Monday evening here would go to work the following day. Exactly. With their imaginations captured as they're on the underground or the bus or driving to work and they're thinking about tournament culture and daring do and honor and all this sort of thing. I think the 14th century audience thought exactly the same when they were on their way to church or going to see family or going to the law courts or inspecting their stables. They were also thinking about Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table. So it populated their imaginative landscapes.
- [13:07]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
And to be frank, and I don't want to generalize, but it does seem like for most people, being alive in the 14th century would have been quite boring and bleak and challenging and physically arduous. I imagine these tournaments were a opportunity for a chance for levity and fun and community that might not, you know, it might. Might just be church and working in a field. The rest of.
- [13:34]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
They were immensely popular. They were great fun. I would say no age likes to think of themselves as an age of boredom. And when we have evidence there is a lot of drinking, merrymaking, dancing in the lives of peasant farmers, I mean, that's not. There is also starvation and there is harsh justice and there is a famine. Exactly. And plague, but you know, plague is no respecter of rank. Was no respecter of rank as Covid was no respecter of rank. And it's also been pointed out the number of saints days. Saints days are holidays, and there are so many saints days, it's sometimes difficult to say how many days these farmers are actually working.
- [14:21]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
They got more time off than most Americans.
- [14:25]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
Absolutely. But having said all that, there is no doubt that tournaments were an immense draw for all different sections of society. I think what we also have to remember is that it was talked about. So even if people weren't there, it was talked about and listened to in the weeks and months afterwards. And that that was a. You know, I remember being in a restaurant and listening to an account of a football match at another table. And more or less all of the restaurant was gripped by the discussion of this match that only that table had seen. So the same, I think, was true in the middle. Even more true in the Middle Ages that it was topic of discussion. And you can imagine how the stories got better in the telling.
- [15:12]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
So in a real tournament in the 14th century, if I were a knight or a nobleman competing, what would be at stake?
- [15:21]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
Not your life. Not your life. So it's very rare for knights to be killed now. They sometimes were. Sometimes as a result, because it's a danger sport and sometimes because there is suspicion of murder, they use a lance they shouldn't have done. The lances were meant to have this sort of non lethal end, but that could sometimes be altered. So it was lethal. There are deaths, but they would above what was at stake. Honor, glory above all. It's slightly different from the tournament of the 12th and 13th century where you could make your fortune by capturing other knights and then selling off their horses, their armor and even ransoming them.
- [16:09]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
When you say capturing other knights, do you mean just beating them in a jack?
- [16:14]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
Yeah, unhorsing them. And then as it were. So the 12th century and 13th century tournaments weren't as we imagine them as they became in the 14th century. They were sort of pitched battles where killing wasn't the objective capture was and they were fought over large sort of football fields. So these huge battles taking place where they're not killing each other, they're just trying to capture each other. And then you could sell off your captives to make a nice fortune. It alters. So in the 13th and then the 14th century, it becomes much more a display of arms and a quest for honor and glory. And it's just about us, you know, make an impression on all of the glamorous people, the men and women, the women as much as the men who are, who are present and for showing off, you know, your horsemanship, your skill at arms, that's what's at stake. And we can't underestimate the importance of honor for these men and women.
- [17:22]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
These days.
- [17:23]
Dana Schwartz
I am all about quality over quantity, especially in my closet, mostly because my
- [17:29]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
closet is very, very small.
- [17:31]
Dana Schwartz
If something isn't well made and versatile, it's just not worth it to me. That's honestly why I love Quince. The fabrics feel elevated, the cuts are thoughtful, and the pricing actually makes sense. Quince makes high quality wardrobe staples using premium fabrics like 100% European linen, 100% silk, and organic cotton poplin. Lightweight cotton cashmere sweaters are perfect for the changing seasons. They're great for layering and they have can't miss seasonal colors and prints for spring. They're just versatile, well made pieces that make getting dressed simple. I'm someone who just wants a uniform
- [18:09]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
that kind of works.
- [18:11]
Dana Schwartz
That's why I find myself just reaching for Quint's pieces again and again. Quint's clothing is consistently rated 4.5 to 5 stars by 3000s of customers. Real people wearing these pieces every day
- [18:23]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
and actually loving them.
- [18:25]
Dana Schwartz
And everything Quince makes is built to hold up season after season.
- [18:29]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
The stitching, the fit, the fabrics.
- [18:31]
Dana Schwartz
They're pieces that you'll reach for over and over and over and over and over.
- [18:35]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
The Quince cotton cashmere sweater has personally become my go to because it's light
- [18:40]
Dana Schwartz
enough for layering but still feels luxe like I put it on and still feel sort of dressed up and it
- [18:46]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
didn't cost what I thought quality cashmere would.
- [18:49]
Dana Schwartz
So stop waiting to build the wardrobe you actually want. You don't need a closet full of options. You need great pieces that work right now. Go to quince.com noble for free shipping and 365 day returns. That is a full year to wear it and love it. And you will now available in Canada too. Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to Q-U-I-N c e.com noble for free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com noble
- [19:29]
Nate (Verizon Ad)
hey everybody, it's Nate. All right, two truths and a lie. Here we go. I wear size 13 shoes, I can ride a unicycle and I have been a Verizon customer for 27 years. Anybody? Anybody?
- [19:39]
Albertsons/Safeway Announcer
All three are true.
- [19:41]
Nate (Verizon Ad)
I know riding unicycle is not hard, but you know Verizon isn't as expensive as you think. In fact, if you bring in your ATT or T mobile bill to a Verizon store, they'll give you a better deal. That's right, a better deal on the best network with the most ways to save on plans, streaming and phone deals. Take that AT and T or T mobile bill to your local Verizon store today. Get your better deal and start saving for real. Based on RootMetric's Best Overall Mobile Network Performance Performance US 2nd Half 2025 all rights reserved. Must provide recent consumer mobile bill in the name of the person redeeming the deal. Additional terms, conditions and restrictions apply.
- [20:16]
Ryan Seacrest
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway.
- [20:19]
Albertsons/Safeway Announcer
It's stock up savings time now through March 31st. Spring in for storewide deals that earn four times the points. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible items from Hunts, Nerds, Pillsbury, Lowry's, Breyers, Quaker and Culture Pop.
- [20:32]
Ryan Seacrest
Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings.
- [20:35]
Albertsons/Safeway Announcer
Stack up those rewards to save even more.
- [20:37]
Ryan Seacrest
Enjoy savings on top of savings when
- [20:39]
Albertsons/Safeway Announcer
you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pick up or delivery restrictions apply. See website for full terms and conditions.
- [20:48]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
Something I sort of have imagined from popular culture is a knight extending his lance and getting the favor of a woman. Her maybe tying a ribbon to the end of the lance. Was that something that actually.
- [21:01]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
Yes, absolutely. In fact, it's even more. Our evidence is even richer and more complex. We have high status women decided who was the champion after so many days of fighting. And as it being, it wasn't just simply about calculating points and scoring victories. But a noblewoman might often be entrusted with deciding who was the bravest, the most skillful knight, or dispensing with a range of prizes or giving the prize. It might even be a wild animal. We know of one tournament where the prize being competed for was a bear.
- [21:37]
Dana Schwartz
What would, what would you do with
- [21:39]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
a bear if you won? Is it bear baiting? Is that the answer?
- [21:44]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
I don't know. I mean, Henry II has a bear. In the 12th century, I think bears would do tricks and I think it was just such a large and hungry beast to feed that it was kind of, you know, it was a demonstration of wealth and power. So you come home from the tournament and you bring back a bear.
- [22:06]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
I can't imagine anyone's wife being too pleased about.
- [22:09]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
No, though it's a noblewoman, according to this evidence, who gave the bear away, who was in charge of the bear and gave it as the gift to the victor. So when Henry, Earl of Derby in the 1390s, he went to join the Teutonic Knights in one of their campaigns. And he goes twice and on the second time he misses them. They've already campaigned in the summer against the Lithuanians. So he goes on because he's got money. This is the future Henry iv. He goes on a kind of great pilgrimage to Jerusalem and around Europe and he picks up all these gifts and he comes back with a leopard. And so you could, you know, the menageries of these aristocrats at these tournaments could be quite spectacular.
- [22:58]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
I mean, that sounds spectacular. Who in general is funding these tournaments? Is it always the king, local noble? Is there a system in.
- [23:09]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
It's largely paid for out of the noblemen? The noblemen, if they wanted tournament, they pay for it. There are some tournaments where, because it's quite a high profile tournament, kings get involved and they'll fund it, they'll pay for the whole thing. Because there's a very famous tournament in France in 1390 in which three great French knights challenge all of Europe to battle them. And it takes place over a really significant something like 30 days of fighting as a demonstration of endurance. It's very impressive. It's paid for by the French king because it's bringing great honor and glory to the French kingdom. It didn't start with him, but once he hears about it, he wants to sort of support it so he funds it.
- [24:04]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
I mean, that makes sense. 30 days also seems like such a long time where that's like, don't. Don't you have jobs to do? Aren't there any wars to.
- [24:13]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
Absolutely. The fascinating thing is a recent study of this particular tournament demonstrates that it's happening up the road from where the negotiations were being conducted between the French and English delegations trying to thrash out a piece. So it looks like there's actually overlap. People are moving from powerful negotiating to the tournament fields. So that at the tournament itself, you know, over the drinks and the feasting at night, they were also talking about how they can work out a lasting peace, which is very interesting.
- [24:47]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
I mean, that is, that's such an interesting contrast that there's this lasting peace and then this faux battle happening juxtaposed literally right next door to.
- [24:58]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
Absolutely. And these are men, the three knights are all involved in the Hundred Years War. One of them in fact would be captured, what, 25 years later at Agincourt. So, you know, it's really fascinating how these individuals turn up in all of these different campaigns and tournaments.
- [25:18]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
When you mentioned earlier that their lives wouldn't necessarily be at risk in these tournaments which are not intended to be deadly. But of course accidents do happen. I mean, a few centuries after the period that we're talking about, the King of France, who is it? Henry ii, will die in a jousting accident.
- [25:36]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
That's right.
- [25:36]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
Were there any notable tragedies that come to mind for you?
- [25:41]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
In particular in the 13th century there are a number of high ranking casualties who are killed in tournaments and in both cases murder is suspected.
- [25:53]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
Interesting. As in people wanted to sort of use the COVID of the tournament to kill people that they actually wanted to kill.
- [26:02]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
Absolutely. So there was aristocratic feuding and they want to settle scores. There are of course duels to the death. A bit like you're cat in that microphone. You know, one of the most famous duels is fought at the French court and was the subject of that very good film, the Last Duel, about a charge of rape. And that is to the death. So there are these incidents, I mean, Henry, Earl of Derby, who I've just mentioned was compelled to fight a duel with Thomas Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk, over charges of treason in 1399, before he was exiled by Richard II. The duel was never fought at Coventry, but it came very close to being waged and then was stopped by the King.
- [26:55]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
The last duel, which Ridley Scott made a film of, a phenomenal film, I thought.
- [27:01]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
I thought it was excellent. That also captured what a duel to the death was like. So that they do occur, but the duels are separate from the tournaments.
- [27:12]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
One other thing that occurs in the television show Knight of the Seven Kingdoms is a trial by combat. They end up doing a trial where it's seven against seven. I hope I'm not spoiling anything. I won't reveal any outcomes. But is a trial by combat something that actually occurred during this period?
- [27:32]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
Absolutely. And it had been a part of elite culture and justice from a very early date. I mean, from a sort of post Roman date, late antiquity. The evidence from among the. Those who settled in the Roman empire from the 5th and 6th century of this kind of means of resolving feud, of fighting duels. So it goes from being part, it seems, of pagan Germanic elite culture to being something within the Christian fold that duels are fought often as a result of charges of treason in the 11th and 12th century. So when men are charged with treason, they deny it, and then they have to fight to defend their position. And there we have an account from a duel that is fought in Flanders in the summer of 1127. And it's horrific. It's just like the duel in Game of Thrones where, you know, the chap's eyes are pulled out or squashed out, and there's something not quite the same, but something similar. We have an account of a. Oh, it takes place after the assassination of the Count of Flanders in 1127. That sets off a chain of events that leads to civil war in Flanders. And there is this duel about charges of complicity in the assassination. And we have an eyewitness account of the duel in which one sort of one of the knights against another more or less disembowels the opponent, and then the opponent, as he's dying, is then executed because he's lost the jewel, which is God's judgment. He's thus been found guilty.
- [29:23]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
So really quite unsettling, quite uncomfortable to physically imagine.
- [29:30]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
Uncomfortable, yes, absolutely.
- [29:32]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
One slightly lighter question to end on. Another theme in Knight of the Seven Kingdoms is sigils and symbols on shields. Can you speak a little bit about what the purpose and meaning of these heraldic symbols were and if you have
- [29:48]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
any personal favorites, this is really interesting because the tournament appears to emerge out of a tradition of cavalry games that goes back to the Roman period. So we know that the Romans liked their military cavalry entertainment. And that then develops in the early Middle Ages under Charlemagne and his successors. And out of that, in the late 11th century, very likely in northeast, what is now northeast France, Belgium and the Netherlands, there emerges a tournament culture. Why that should be remains unclear, but associated with that is the development, fascinatingly, of heraldry. So the history of tournaments and heraldry are, seem to be closely connected.
- [30:38]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
That's fascinating.
- [30:40]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
Absolutely. So, you know, there's been lots of warfare in the early Middle Ages and there's. There's been no real evidence of heraldry of aristocratic houses. That changes in the late 11th century. And it's linked to tournaments. And it looks like that different families are keen to demonstrate their presence, their power, their identity, their membership with these choice of arms, this decoration on their shields and on their penance. So you look at the Bayeux Tapestry and there's very limited, very, very limited heraldic decoration. I think there's a dragon on a couple of the shields of the knights. On the Bayo Tapestry, there's a dragon standard, but otherwise there's an absence of heraldry. But 40 years later, after 1066, 1070, the date of the Bayo Tapestry, more or less arms are being used by elite families. And as the period proceeds, 13th, 14th centuries, they get quite complex and very colorful and very interesting. My favorite is a bit earlier in the early 12th century. There's the seal matrix of a English sheriff and justice. And it's a very peculiar because it shows a knight fighting a monster, a kind of griffin like beast, who is holding a kind of small other beast in its mouth. It's not quite clear what's going on. It looks like that the smaller beast is directing the greater beast against this knight.
- [32:17]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
It's like a Krang situation. It's like a small guy controlling a big guy.
- [32:22]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
Absolutely. It's exactly that and it's really fascinating. It's clearly an insight into how this knight saw himself as a kind of fighter against the forces of darkness on behalf of his king. So it's a really fascinating insight into a mentality.
- [32:40]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
I love that. If you have access to it, please, please email it to me. I would love to see that. But it is fascinating to imagine that these knightly heralds are performative, more than functional in that sense. If they, if they corresponded with the rise of these tournaments, they were outward facing Symbols. And I think that's such an interesting analysis.
- [33:04]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
Absolutely. But having said that, I would also want to make the point that they then, of course, as you know, they are then functional and in the stress of battle, you know, seeing these standards and in the close visor of these helmets, seeing a standard of your lord or of your king is, can rally your spirit and can also show you where to rush to. There's no accident that Henry V placed himself at Agincourt, right on the front line with his Royal War helm so that everybody could see where he was, to rally the lads, in other words, in the heat of battle.
- [33:40]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
And of course, something to bring it all back together, something I think that Knight of the Seven Kingdoms communicates very well is it is difficult to see in those visors.
- [33:50]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
Absolutely.
- [33:51]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
If you lose sight of your lord. I mean, going back to the Bayou Tapestry, Battle of Hastings, it seems like your King is down, who knows what to do.
- [34:01]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
Absolutely. The confusion and terror of battle. In fact, there are two different kinds of helmet. There is the tournament helmet, which is a big showy offy gear, and then there's the sort of battle helm where a lot like Israeli tank commanders were trained to drive with their heads out of the tank hatch to give maximum mobility in the 1960s and 70s, knights in English armies and French armies in the 14th century preferred helmets without visors so that they could see the action. It was much more dangerous. Of course, Henry V gets an arrow as a 16 year old boy in his face at the Battle of Shrewsbury because he's got his visor up because he wants to see what's happening and lead his men. It's a serious business.
- [34:52]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
It is a serious business. I've already taken far too much of your time. I could talk to you for hours. This is fascinating. One last question just before you go. How do you feel something very exciting for medievalists is about to happen in the uk, which is the Bayou Tapestry.
- [35:08]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
Coming back, I'm very, very excited. I'm also deeply nervous.
- [35:13]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
That's what people say. It's a little controversial.
- [35:15]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
You know, I can see post Brexit, the B word. Good thing to be reminded of our remarkable and rich shared history with the continent. I'm a bit, little bit anxious about the transport of this remarkable object. I mean, you know, it is, it is very, very fragile and it should be preserved. It survived. After all, it has survived Napoleon, it has survived the Wehrmacht and the ss. It has survived a great deal and it needs to be preserved so that future generations can enjoy its fascinating detail.
- [35:55]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
If I'm correct.
- [35:56]
Dana Schwartz
Harold.
- [35:57]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
Harold with an arrow to the eye.
- [35:59]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
Absolutely. Though it's. Everything about the Bayer tapestry is an enigma and a challenge. So the problem with that is that we think we're not actually sure which figure because it says Harold, but it's not quite clear which figure is Harold. There is a figure with an arrow. And then just to complicate things more, there is evidence that the arrow is a 19th century restoration.
- [36:25]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
Oh, no.
- [36:26]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
So even something as like as sort of accepted and known as the arrow in Harold's eye on the bay tapestry, which not even certain if it's part of the original decoration. It is that there is. Everything about the bear tapestry is an enigma. The more you look at it, the more complex and the more interesting it becomes.
- [36:50]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
I know. I just gave a thousand medievalists a heart attack by saying Harold died with an arrow to the eye, reinforcing the historical myth.
- [36:59]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
I was just at a seminar where the historian was talking exactly on this point. Harold may still have died by an arrow and there may be an arrow there in the tapestry that may indeed be Harold. There's just this problem that there is evidence of slight heavy handed restoration in the 19th century. I'm sure those historians, many of us, are still alive.
- [37:20]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
Okay, good. Dr. Doherty, I cannot thank you enough for your time for this fascinating conversation. I can see why Hollywood keeps calling you. It's just a pleasure to talk to you.
- [37:30]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
It's been a pleasure, Donna, really. Thank you.
- [37:42]
Dana Schwartz
Noble Blood is a production of iHeartRadio and Grim and Mild from Erin Manke. Noble Blood is hosted by me, Dana Schwartz. Writers for Noble Blood are Hannah Johnston, Hannah Zwick, Paul Jaffe, Natasha Lasky and me, Dana Schwartz. The show is edited and produced by Jesse Funk and Gnomes Griffin with supervising producer Rima Il Kayali and executive producers Aaron Menke, Trevor Young and Matt Frederick. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever
- [38:18]
Dana Schwartz (Host of Noble Blood)
you listen to your favorite shows.
- [38:24]
Verizon Announcer
Think Verizon is expensive? Think again. Anyone can bring their AT&T or T mobile bill to a Verizon store today and we'll give you a better deal. So bring us your bill, walk in, run in, pogo stickin', teleport. If you can ride on the back of a rollerblading yak or fly in on the wings of a majestic falcon, any way you can, can bring your AT&T or T mobile bill to a Verizon store today and we'll give you a better deal on the best network based on RootMetric's best overall mobile network performance. US second half 2025. All rights reserved. Must provide very recent postpaid consumer mobile bill in the name of the person redeeming the deal. Additional terms, conditions and restrictions apply.
- [38:54]
Ryan Seacrest
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and Safeway.
- [38:57]
Albertsons/Safeway Announcer
It's Stock Up Savings time now through March 31st. Spring in for storewide deals and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags to earn on eligible items from Hunts, Nerds, Pillsbury, Lowry's, Breyers, Quaker and Culture Pop.
- [39:09]
Ryan Seacrest
Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings.
- [39:13]
Albertsons/Safeway Announcer
Stack up those rewards to save even more.
- [39:15]
Ryan Seacrest
Enjoy savings on top of savings when
- [39:17]
Albertsons/Safeway Announcer
you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery restrictions apply. See website for full terms and conditions.
- [39:26]
Dr. Teal's Announcer
Get a full body reset anywhere you go with Dr. Teal's magnesium spray. It's a concentrated magnesium blend of pure Epsom and Dead Sea salts all bundled up in a convenient on the go bottle. A few quick sprays will relax your body and mind and keep you feeling recharged all day long. It's wellness you can feel and you can find it in your local bath aisle. Dr. Teals Yep, you needed that.
- [39:51]
Dr. Hugh Doherty
This is an I Heart podcast.
- [39:53]
Albertsons/Safeway Announcer
Guaranteed human.