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- [00:00]
Tom Brokaw
This is an iHeart podcast. NBC Nightly News legacy isn't handed down or NBC News. I'm Tom Brokaw. We hope to see you back here.
- [00:10]
Lester Holt
I'm Lester Holt. It's carried forward. Tom Yamas is there for us.
- [00:14]
Tom Brokaw
Firefighters are still working around the clock.
- [00:16]
Lester Holt
As the world changes, we look for what endures. We are coming on the air with breaking news right now. We look for a constant and from.
- [00:23]
Tom Brokaw
One era to the next, Trust is the anchor for NBC Nightly News.
- [00:28]
Tom Yamas
I'm Tom Yamas.
- [00:29]
Lester Holt
A new chapter begins NBC Nightly News with Tom Llamas Evenings on NBC.
- [00:35]
Tom Brokaw
We're leaving today and entering a world.
- [00:37]
Dana Schwartz
Of Cinderella, castle sightseeing, Tron Light cycling.
- [00:42]
Jason English
Jungle cruise, bunning, pirate swashbuckling, Everest climbing.
- [00:48]
Dana Schwartz
Dapper Danning, soaring, soaring fireworks show of I'm not crying, you're crying. World of Favorites for whatever you love, infinite worlds await at the most magical place on earth.
- [01:03]
Tom Brokaw
Walt Disney World World Resort.
- [01:05]
Ryan Seacrest
Time for a sofa upgrade Introducing Anabe Sofas where designer style meets budget friendly prices. Anabe brings you the ultimate in furniture innovation with a modular design that allows you to rearrange your space effortlessly. Perfect for both small and large spaces, Anabe is the only machine washable sofa inside and out. Say goodbye to stains and messes with liquid and stain resistant fabrics that make cleaning easy. Liquids simply slide right off. Designed for custom comfort, our high resilience foam lets you choose between a sink in feel or a supportive memory foam blend. Plus our pet friendly stain resistant fabrics ensure your sofa stays beautiful for years. Don't compromise quality for price. Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your living space. Today. Sofas start at just $699 with no risk returns and a 30 day money back guarantee. Get up to 60% off plus 15 free shipping and free returns. Shop now at washablesofas.com offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.
- [02:05]
Tom Yamas
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and safeway. Now through June 24th. Score hot summer savings and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags on Items like Pepsi 2 liter bottles, poppy prebiotic sodas, all laundry detergent and kinder seasoning blend. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online. For easy drive up and go pickup or delivery. Subject to availability restrictions. Visit Albertsons or Safeway.com for more details.
- [02:39]
Tom Brokaw
This is an iHeart original.
- [02:42]
Tom Yamas
Welcome to our Little Jazz.
- [02:48]
Tom Brokaw
It's 2009 and Ben Moeller, a 10 year old fifth grader from Arizona should be in school. Instead, he's standing on a stage in Los Angeles. He's enclosed in a prop the shape of a donut that's being pulled to the rafters for a dramatic reveal. Behind him is a giant 75 foot screen. In front of him are roughly 300 audience members. His father is nearby and so are television cameras. Ben's vision isn't great and things are a little blurry, but he can hear the host, Kevin Pollack.
- [03:31]
Lester Holt
He's selling the show, right? He's talking about how these are the hardest questions that have ever been put to television quiz. But these are the smartest kids that we've ever brought, you know before.
- [03:41]
Tom Brokaw
Ben is taping a new game show on the FOX Broadcasting Network. It's called Our Little Genius. He's one of several child prodigies who have been invited to test their knowledge for a chance to win up to $500,000. Ben's specialty is dinosaurs. He's prepared for this for months. He knows as much as any 10 year old possibly could about paleontology. If he does well, there's the possibility he could earn enough money to pay for college. He nails the first question, which consists of a multi part answer. But when the next question comes, Ben is confused.
- [04:30]
Lester Holt
I can't really see it on the big screen, but I can see it on my small screen. That's where my emotions start to really. I'm getting really confused and I'm getting really in my own head about like is there another game being played on me that I didn't understand until right now? Because something is not right here.
- [04:50]
Tom Brokaw
Something isn't right and it's not because the question is too difficult. It's the opposite. Moments before he walked on stage, a member of the production team approached his father with information about the game. Information that Ben now realizes is the answer to the question. Even at age 10, Ben realizes that isn't supposed to happen on game shows. In fact, it's a violation of federal law.
- [05:22]
Lester Holt
You would be able to see on my face just confusion and concern. And on the tip of my tongue in that moment was me wanting to say, they told me the answer to this offstage. Something's not right here.
- [05:39]
Tom Brokaw
But can they start over? In a split second, Ben has to decide whether to answer the question in a way that feels like cheating or tell a studio full of people that the quiz show they're taping isn't on the level that maybe these child geniuses are getting a little extra help while he's still processing all that. The stage lights suddenly and mysteriously go out.
- [06:08]
Lester Holt
Yeah. Something is afoot.
- [06:12]
Tom Brokaw
Welcome to Very special episodes, an I heart original podcast. I'm your host, Dana Schwartz, and this is Hemi Demi. Semiquaver A modern quiz show scandal.
- [06:29]
Sarah Burnett
Welcome back to Very Special episodes. I'm Jason English. She's Dana Schwartz. He's Sarah Burnett.
- [06:34]
Lester Holt
What up?
- [06:34]
Sarah Burnett
Any of you have a stressful game show experience? You want to share?
- [06:38]
Tom Brokaw
Mean Jason. I was on Jeopardy. I don't wanna brag.
- [06:42]
Sarah Burnett
Tee up.
- [06:43]
Dana Schwartz
Are you kidding me?
- [06:44]
Tom Brokaw
I was on Jeopardy. It was not a great. I didn't do the best. It was not, like a gold medal situation for me. I'm not one to make excuses. In my defense, I was 12 weeks pregnant at the time, and so I was just like, housing saltine crackers backstage. And so I was, like, nauseous and in a cold sweat the whole time. But no one knew I was pregnant. Cause it was like, you know, it's like very early.
- [07:06]
Tom Yamas
Wow.
- [07:07]
Tom Brokaw
But still, it was not the best performance of my life. But it was a dream come true just to be on Jeopardy. But very scary. And at that moment, I realized I never wanted to be on television a. Or maybe be perceived ever again.
- [07:22]
Sarah Burnett
You've done Jeopardy. Celebrity Jeopardy.
- [07:24]
Tom Brokaw
Next. Yeah, I could kill celebrity Jeopardy. Those questions are way easier.
- [07:28]
Jason English
No.
- [07:29]
Dana Schwartz
How was the button pushing? I've always wondered this. Is it really hard?
- [07:32]
Tom Brokaw
Impossible. I mean, that's the real problem of Jeopardy. It's like, even if you know the answers, it's just a game of being able to push it faster than the other people. It's very hard and very stressful.
- [07:42]
Dana Schwartz
Do they give you pointers? They're like, hey, you gotta have real quick thumb strength. Maybe, like, spend the two weeks before the show practicing.
- [07:48]
Tom Brokaw
You do a practice round before, but I don't know if you can prepare for it. It's just kind of like, I don't know, maybe you can. And I just didn't. But I was just like, you know what? Getting on Jeopardy. Was the bucket list item. Now it's in. It's in the universe's hands.
- [08:02]
Dana Schwartz
Oh, yeah, you. You went up so high in my esteem. I'm so jealous. I've always wanted to be on Jeopardy.
- [08:06]
Sarah Burnett
Zaron, have you ever been on any kind of game show?
- [08:08]
Dana Schwartz
No, I've. I've never even been on a game show set. And I've been on a lot of TV sets and shows and stuff, but never a game show. I don't know why. It's just like the sideshow like the midway of the county fairgrounds I never go to.
- [08:20]
Sarah Burnett
So yeah.
- [08:20]
Dana Schwartz
What about you, Jason?
- [08:22]
Sarah Burnett
I've never been on a game show, but in I think it was 2011, I did go on the Rachael Ray show with my 2 year old daughter.
- [08:30]
Tom Brokaw
What? How did I not know this?
- [08:32]
Sarah Burnett
And let Rachael Ray quiz her about presidential history. Oh my God. After hearing Ben tell his story, I feel like terrible Paris. And we can put a pin in that. Let Ben tell his story and get into this in the outro.
- [08:50]
Tom Brokaw
In the early 2000s, unscripted television was popping up everywhere. The contestants came cheap but earned huge ratings. Nearly 29 million people watched the American Idol finale in 2009 featuring Adam Lambert and Chris Allen of the four major networks. Fox was always pushing the envelope for the next unscripted sensation. There was man versus Beast, which pitted a professional sprinter against a giraffe and a professional eater against a Kodiak bear in a hot dog eating contest. The moment of Truth, which strapped participants to a lie detector actor and asked them increasingly personal questions. And the Swan, which crowned a winner based on who got the most impressive plastic surgery in this tsunami of tastelessness, was a relatively harmless entry. Are you Smarter than a fifth grader? Debuted in 2007 and tasked adults with questions called from grade school textbook books with assistance from kids. It was successful enough that the network contemplated how they could pursue the child prodigy genre. The answer was Our little Genius, which came from super producer Mark Burnett of Survivor fame, as well as Mike Darnell, Fox's in house reality show mastermind. Mike was responsible for the giraffe races, sure, but also a lot of hits. In reality TV terms, this was like Scorsese teaming up with Tarantino. The premise was simple. Take a kid between the ages of 6 and 12 who had a knowledge specialty, their field of genius, and ask them a series of multi part questions that required between three and ten answers to complete. It wasn't multiple choice, but if they got it right, they'd win cash. The parents then decided whether their child should keep going to win more cash or risk losing what they've already won. A panel of experts in a given category could weigh in on the kids chances of success. If they navigated all 10 levels, they'd walk away with $500,000. The show's producers recruited from Mensa, from schools for gifted children, and from the media, which loved to cover kids doing extraordinary things. That's how they found Ben. In 2009, Ben was living in Gilbert, Arizona, happily immersed in paleontology, passionate about it in a way that children often are. His mother, Eek, was a teacher. His father, Sherman, had a few different careers, including one as an electrical engineer. They were all too happy to encourage and nourish his fascination.
- [12:01]
Lester Holt
So when his younger son came along and he's like, I want to do paleontology. As a parent, you want to encourage your kids. But he just didn't know, like, how do I actually do that? So he sought out experts to ask. And in this case, down here in Tucson is the world's largest gem and mineral show.
- [12:18]
Tom Brokaw
Arizona is a good place for dinosaur lovers. The southwest is home to lots of fossils. Ben's father made the right contacts to facilitate Ben's education. He even got permission for Ben to go on a fossil excavation where he looked on in amazement at an actual stegosaurus tooth.
- [12:40]
Lester Holt
Teeth of stegosaurus are quite rare. So that was one of those times when everyone puts their tools down and we all gather around to look at it.
- [12:48]
Tom Brokaw
Ben's knowledge of dinosaurs earned him other opportunities, like volunteering at a museum in Mesa to answer questions about everything from fossils to the theory of evolution.
- [13:01]
Lester Holt
And it was basically my responsibility to stand there and, you know, answer people's questions as they came. By the way that the exhibit was laid out, people would kind of turn a corner and sometimes they would the therizinosaurus looming over them and they just scream and run away. But those who are brave enough to actually go into the side gallery would see an eight year old standing there.
- [13:22]
Tom Brokaw
He also got some media attention, including on the local news and a write up in a magazine. Though he can't be certain that's likely where the producers of our little genius discovered him. They placed a phone call to his parents and explained explain the premise of the show. Ben knew something was up when his father picked him up from school one day rather than let him take the bus. Maybe Ben thought another family cat had died. Instead, his father told him a quiz show was looking to have him on.
- [13:55]
Lester Holt
Like, I was not pressured into doing this in any way. He would have been perfectly happy, I think, telling him, no, thank you. But again, because all the other times I had been on, you know, interacting with media had been no big deal.
- [14:08]
Tom Brokaw
The opportunity to win $500,000 was significant. It could cover not only his education, but his brother's. And while his family wasn't in financial trouble, Ben had a loose concept of the greater financial crisis hitting the middle class. In Ben's mind, that might impact his. His ability to attend college.
- [14:32]
Lester Holt
I mean, Again, this is 2009. I'm 10 years old, but the recession is happening. And when I came home from school, I would be watching on the nightly news everything about the stock market crashing. And I know that in order to succeed at the career that I wanted, I needed to go to college. College costs a lot of money, and here was an opportunity for me to potentially earn my way using the knowledge that I already had. So to me, it seemed like, I mean, why not, you know, what's the worst that could happen?
- [14:59]
Tom Brokaw
But Ben's parents weren't stage parents. They didn't place any pressure on him.
- [15:05]
Lester Holt
They basically encouraged me that, like, look, the third question, the $10,000 safety net question, make that the goal. As long as you can answer the first three questions in a row, you walk away with at least $10,000. And that'll still help with tuition. That'll still put you ahead of where you would have been. So just focus on that. Everything after that can be a bonus. But, yeah, just focus on getting those first three questions correct.
- [15:27]
Tom Brokaw
The taping of our little genius was set for December 2009. That gave Ben a few months to cram as much information into his brain as he possibly could. He soaked up details of fossil discoveries of genus and species sizes and characteristics. And the producers also said they wanted generic paleontology rather than limiting it to just dinosaurs, which added whole new subjects to cram.
- [15:57]
Lester Holt
When my dad would take time off to go and study with me, he would. It was stuff like, you know, printing off webpages with lists of questions about extinct animals just so that we understood, like, what the potential questions could be.
- [16:09]
Tom Brokaw
But here's the issue with dinosaur trivia. It's not like math or history where things can be cut and dry.
- [16:17]
Lester Holt
There was a lot of like, well, this source says this answer. This source says this answer. Well, this answer. This source is newer, so this may be based on more up to date information. You know, this source looks more trustworthy than the other one. So again, it's not quite as unambiguous about what the answers to some of these questions could be.
- [16:38]
Tom Brokaw
Ben also did mock appearances for producers answering questions over the phone and sometimes in front of a camcorder at his house.
- [16:47]
Lester Holt
A few of them were recorded. They had us set up a camcorder and a tripod because they wanted to ask me questions over the phone and verify that, you know, I wasn't looking at a sheet of paper to answer it or that someone else wasn't, like, you know, whispering in my ear. There were a few interviews we did where it's us in the family sitting down in front of the camera and they're asking me questions, questions and I'm answering them.
- [17:10]
Tom Brokaw
Ben thinks he got about 70% of the questions during the practice rounds. Correct.
- [17:16]
Lester Holt
That was the one about. In the test rounds, I had been asked name the three carnivorous dinosaurs larger than Tyrannosaurus rex.
- [17:23]
Tom Brokaw
Unbeknownst to Ben, this would be important later. For now, Ben's parents signed a release and Ben also signed a contract at 10 in the state of California. It's a binding contract if it's been reviewed and approved by a court.
- [17:42]
Lester Holt
So it says. I understand that as a contestant on the series I may be subjected to severe mental stress, embarrassment, shock, surprise or other unfortunate emotions in response to the events, stunts and or challenges on the series. In addition, I understand that as a contestant on the series I may reveal and or relate and other parties may reveal and or relate relate information about me that is of a personal, private or embarrassing or unfavorable nature which information may be factual and or fictional. So you may be embarrassed and it may or may not even be factual.
- [18:14]
Tom Brokaw
The contract also made a point of the seriousness of trying to cheat.
- [18:19]
Jason English
I am aware that it is a federal offense punishable by fine and or imprisonment for anyone to do anything which would rig or in any way influence the outcome of the series with the intent to deceive the viewing public. And that it is a federal offense to offer or to accept any information or secret assistance in connection with the series. I agree that I will not participate in any such act or any other deceptive or dishonest act with respect to the series. If anyone tries to induce me to do any such act, I must immediately notify the producer.
- [18:51]
Tom Brokaw
Ben scribbled his initials next to the passage and soon it was time to head to California where Our Little Genius was taped at Los Angeles Center Studios and one of their massive 18,000 square foot sound stages. Ben and his father arrived there in December 2009.
- [19:13]
Lester Holt
I remember waking up that morning when it was still dark out. And it's just one of those days where you're like wide awake the second you wake up. And it's like, well, today's the day. Start going through the facts in your mind because today's the day. You know, this could, who knows? This could change everything.
- [19:29]
Tom Brokaw
It would change everything. And it all started with a curious conversation backstage.
- [19:39]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [20:39]
Tom Yamas
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and safeway now through June 24th. Score hot summer savings and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags on items like Kinder, Bueno, Cheez It Crackers, Oscar Mayer Lunchables and Just Bear Chicken Bites. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery subject to availability restrictions apply. Visit Albertsons or Safeway.com for more details.
- [21:12]
Tom Brokaw
When Ben and his family arrived for the taping of Our Little Genius, the studio was slowly filling up with audience members and a bustling crew, including host Kevin Pollock. Ben doesn't remember interacting much with Kevin or with any of the other kid contestants. He does remember someone on the show, an adult asking a weird question.
- [21:36]
Lester Holt
He was trying to strike up a conversation to me about like, well, do you like, do you like coffee? And I'm like, no, I'm 10, I don't like coffee.
- [21:44]
Tom Brokaw
But he did notice something peculiar while the kids were on stage. They were asked to pretend to have gotten an answer wrong and to look.
- [21:54]
Lester Holt
Slightly dejected so that you know, in the case that there's an emotional meltdown, they've got footage that like, doesn't involve a small child, like completely breaking down, right? They've got a more controlled, faked, rehearsed ending that they can go to.
- [22:10]
Tom Brokaw
As Ben later found out, they wanted the option of using a reaction that would be less disturbing for viewers. As this is going on, Ben is getting a microphone threaded through his clothing, a red button up shirt and slacks. Then, shortly before Ben went on, someone involved in the production told his father something. It was information about dinosauria, the umbrella term for two distinct groups of dinos. The Lizard hipped and the bird hipped.
- [22:43]
Lester Holt
They had already asked me questions about that. I already knew all that. And what this producer wanted to make sure my dad made sure that I knew was that this had happened in 1888, this official like division of dinosauria had happened in the year 1888, and that it was the researcher, Harry Seeley that had made that distinction.
- [23:04]
Tom Brokaw
To put this into some context for the non paleontologists listening, this is not what would be considered common information to have. In all of Ben's preparation, he hadn't been expecting to field these types of.
- [23:19]
Lester Holt
Questions, but in all these questions they had been asking me about dinosaurs, it was about dinosaurs and not about like the history and development of paleontology as a field all that much. There's a few like key names and dates that would come up. But yeah, knowing Harry Seeley, 1888, off the top of your head, I mean, even today as a paleontologist is like not something that's useful to know, right?
- [23:40]
Tom Brokaw
Sherman later told Ben he wasn't sure what to do with the information he, he'd been given, that maybe it would simply be a matter of knowing Harry Seeley in case he was mentioned during the show. It didn't seem wrong, not right away.
- [23:56]
Lester Holt
Then he's like, I'm, I. It was implied to me that like, this is important contextual information for someone who might be on your expert panel. Like this person might be a descendant of Harry Seeley or might be a scholar in Harry Seeley's work. And like, you might look stupid if you don't know who that is.
- [24:13]
Tom Brokaw
Each kid competed one at a time. Finally, it was Ben's turn on stage. He stood inside of a giant illuminated ring that slowly rose to the ceiling. A panel of experts stood at the ready to advise Ben's father if he needed guidance on whether Ben could answer the question.
- [24:35]
Lester Holt
We're gonna consult the experts. The experts are gonna get to see the question and then they talk amongst themselves and decide like, okay, does it. Could a 10 year old realistically get this question right? And so they can advise the parents like either go for it, try for that $500,000 or like, don't risk it. If you cash out now, you'll keep whatever the previous tier was above 100,000. So they were there kind of as the lifeline, but like realistically in the function of entertainment property, they're there to make faces at the camera. And that in a situation I'm sure they were hoping for would be. The experts say, like, no, I don't think a 10 year old can answer this.
- [25:12]
Tom Brokaw
The first round of questions began. Ben was asked to name the major geological periods of Earth's history in order.
- [25:21]
Lester Holt
You start with the Cambrian, Ordovician, Silurian, Devonian, Carboniferous, Permian, Triassic, Jurassic, Cretaceous, Paleogene, Neogene, Quaternary. The Carboniferous is a period of time in other parts of the world that they, or actually they do it here in the US too. It's subdivided into different sub periods. Some consider them full periods, some consider them sub periods, and they're named after places where these major exposures are.
- [25:48]
Tom Brokaw
Technically, there was more than one correct answer.
- [25:51]
Lester Holt
So the lower one is called the Mississippian period, and the upper one is called the Pennsylvanian period. So the 12 part answer that I gave, which is the one that they accepted, has just Carboniferous.
- [26:03]
Tom Brokaw
There was a beat, and then Kevin Pollock announced Ben had gotten all the answers right for the first prize of $1,000. The ice had been broken. Ben could do this, stand in front of a bunch of strangers under hot studio lights and under pressure, recall arcane information. Hey, it was about dinosaurs.
- [26:28]
Lester Holt
Like, I know I had a different interest set. You know, a lot of kids my age were into Pokemon and they memorized hundreds of those suckers, right? So me knowing 12 things in a row is like, not a big deal.
- [26:41]
Tom Brokaw
The second round of questions came. This time they were worth $5,000, right?
- [26:47]
Lester Holt
So the question they ask is, you know, what two major groups are the clade Dinosauria broken down into. And again, this is all paraphrasing. I don't remember the exact language here, but what they're asking, what are the two major groups of dinosaurs who named them and what year did he name them in?
- [27:04]
Tom Brokaw
Something wasn't right. The answer was Harry Seeley and 1888, the same name and year his father had been fed. Just before Ben walked on stage, Ben deliberated answering was worth a lot of money, college money. But wasn't this cheating?
- [27:26]
Lester Holt
And of course, I already knew the names of the groups, but I would not have Known Harry Seeley, 1888 had they not used my father to give that information, had they not tricked him into thinking that this was about one of the experts, I would not have.
- [27:40]
Tom Brokaw
Known that Ben was also thinking of that contract. Was it too late to disclose someone had fed him answers? Had he done something wrong?
- [27:50]
Lester Holt
My impression was like, all right, I promise not to embarrass the production team and that like, whatever I say, they can do whatever they want with it and it might be a huge mistake, right? To say the truth.
- [28:03]
Tom Brokaw
The other problem was that our little genius didn't appear to have a contestant advocate on set, someone a child could turn to who wasn't directly part of the production. Child actors have those protections. Child geniuses do not.
- [28:21]
Lester Holt
Again, there was no representative on stage of a neutral third party for a production that is done ethically and with safety in mind. You know, you should have a third party who does not have a stake in the game, who is present as a resource for the child, you know, who is not from the production team and is not one of the parents.
- [28:42]
Tom Brokaw
Ben answered Harry Seely and 1888. And again, Kevin Pollock told him he was correct. But the relief he had felt after the first set of questions was replaced by confusion. This wasn't how game shows were supposed to work. You had to come up with an answer on your own, not parrot what had been told to you. Kevin Pollock delivered the third round of questions, which were worth $10,000. This time the problem was something very much like the one he had answered during his test runs at home when he had been asked to name three carnivorous dinosaurs larger than the T. Rex.
- [29:25]
Lester Holt
And then in the actual taping, they asked me first name the largest dinosaur ever known and then name the four carnivorous dinosaurs larger than T. Rex.
- [29:34]
Tom Brokaw
One question, five answers. To Ben, it was convoluted and confusing. He had demonstrated knowledge of three during the sample game. Now there were four, plus a bonus answer, the largest dinosaur ever discovered. Ben knew the answer. They were looking Argentinosaurus. But this time the issue wasn't being fed the complete answer. It was that Ben felt there was more than one correct answer or no way of knowing the right answer.
- [30:08]
Lester Holt
And so what they were looking for here again, we're talking about biggest. That can mean a lot of different things. It can mean the longest, it can mean the tallest at the hip. Because dinosaurs in their natural posture, the two legged bipedal dinosaurs, so all the carnivores are going to be basically their body is parallel to the ground. So their highest point is not like the head, the way that humans stand. It's the hip is usually the highest point. So if we're looking for tallest, it's usually measured like at the hip there's weight. And I think it's pretty intuitive to understand that it's difficult to estimate how much an animal would have weighed when we only have a skeleton.
- [30:47]
Tom Brokaw
The problem was also that some species didn't necessarily have complete skeletons at the time, making an objective measurement difficult. Ben gave the best answer he could.
- [30:58]
Lester Holt
What if it's 43ft? You know, you're hinging, literally wagering $10,000 on this question. You know, even the answer that I gave, which is Spinosaurus, Carcharodontosaurus and Giganotosaurus, even at that time, you could have argued, we don't actually know that the one or two specimens of these animals we have are larger than the largest T. Rex.
- [31:20]
Tom Brokaw
But he couldn't think of a fourth. Under pressure, he answered Suchomimus. The show was looking for Tyranno Titan, which was at the time not conclusively proven to be larger than T Rex. While it did appear in some reference material, there was no consensus about its average size. This time, Kevin Pollock didn't have good news. The answer had been judged to be incorrect. And then suddenly there was a production issue.
- [31:54]
Lester Holt
When I gave the answer, Suchomimus spelled incorrectly pops up on the screen. And then they cut the lights and they pretend that there's a power outage.
- [32:04]
Tom Brokaw
Ben was led off stage and into a room. When they came back on, Kevin Pollack had an announcement. Ben could try again in what amounted to a do over.
- [32:16]
Lester Holt
And here in that side room is where I learned that we could have another go. I didn't know until that point that they would let me try again.
- [32:24]
Tom Brokaw
Again. Ben made it to the third set of questions. Kevin Pollock wanted to know what family Smilodon belongs to.
- [32:33]
Lester Holt
Of course I know what Smilodon is. I know that it's a cat. So the guess that I make is like, I don't know. Felis, I think, is verbatim what I said. Felis is the genus name for the domestic cat. And it's quite close to Fila day, right? Felis, Fela dei. But that's not the answer they were looking for. So I end up, you know, at that point, they're just like, all right, you're done.
- [32:56]
Tom Brokaw
As he walked off the stage, a confusing series of emotions began to grip him. One of the worst feelings was that he had let his older brother down, that he could have potentially paid for his college if the game hadn't been a mess of leaked information and ambiguous questions.
- [33:15]
Lester Holt
He didn't know that at the time. And I'm really glad that he didn't know that. He was there when we filmed, you know, he was there in the audience when we filmed the show. And so he saw me like bomb on stage. And so I'm really glad that he didn't know at the time, like, I was trying to get money for both of us because that would have made me feel a lot worse if like I had promised that to him.
- [33:34]
Tom Brokaw
At the taping, Ben was routed to a child psychologist who asked some perfunctory questions.
- [33:42]
Lester Holt
At least that's what she identified herself as. And she basically looks at me and she goes, yeah, he looks pretty sad.
- [33:47]
Tom Brokaw
He and his family were then ushered into an SUV and driven back to their hotel.
- [33:52]
Lester Holt
We get back into the SUVs and we go back to the hotel and I am given a couple of hours to myself in the hotel room to kind of come to terms with the fact that I blew it.
- [34:05]
Tom Brokaw
Heading home, the reality was sinking in. He had failed to advance, a failure his 10 year old self thought might endanger his chances of pursuing his passion, paleontology. Without prize money, where would money from college come from? Later, Ben was affected by another realization. He had effectively cheated. Not with any premeditation, not because he wanted an advantage, but because he had been put in an impossible position. The question was what was anyone going to do about it? And what happened with the other kids?
- [34:50]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [35:50]
Tom Yamas
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and safeway. Now through June 24th. Score hot summer savings and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags on items like Kinder Bueno, Cheez It Crackers, Oscar Meyer Lunchables and Just Bear Chicken Bites. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go, pickup or delivery subject to availability restrictions apply. Visit Albertsons or Safeway.com for more details.
- [36:25]
Tom Brokaw
The original quiz show scandal was in November of 1956 when a handsome man named Charles Van Doren stepped onto the set of 21. An English instructor at Columbia University, Van Doren had been invited to the show at the behest of producer Albert Friedman. For the next 14 weeks, Van Doren listened intently to questions, his brow furrowed in deep concentration. Then he'd emerge with the right answer, enough of them to dethrone the show's reigning champion, a comparatively nerdy player named Herbert Stempel. Van Dorn became a national celebrity. He won $129,000, or the equivalent of 1.5 million today. He got a job with NBC, but by summer of 1958, he was on a different kind of hot seat. 21 had been rigged for Van Doren to win. He had been given the answers. So had Stempel. Both had been coached to appear as sympathetic as possible to the viewing audience. Along with other contestants, Van Doren lied to a Manhattan grand jury about the allegations before finally coming clean. In 1959, he lost his jobs at Columbia and NBC and rarely spoke about the scandal.
- [37:57]
George Bridegam
When that came to light, Congress actually held an investigation. They held hearings, and it was really the first time in the nation's history that it became widespread public knowledge that a lot of what was being presented on TV wasn't actually real. And what came out of those congressional investigations was ultimately a criminal law.
- [38:21]
Tom Brokaw
That's George Bridegam. George is the Deputy District attorney for Ventura county in California. In 2019, while he was still a law student at Chapman University, George authored a paper where he took a deep dive into the legal consequences of manipulating televised contests. After the quiz show scandals, the Federal Communications Commission, or fcc, was given new powers to enforce fairness in game shows.
- [38:51]
George Bridegam
And it actually makes it a federal crime punishable by up to a year in prison. To predetermine the outcome. Outcome of an intellectual game, a game of chance or a game of intellectual skill with the intent to deceive the viewing public. So it's actually a crime for producers to rig broadcast game shows.
- [39:13]
Tom Brokaw
Following the quiz show scandals of the 1950s, game shows cleaned up their act. No one wanted to be caught feeding answers to contestants and risk their reputations or their freedom. But there were still controversies. In the 1970s, a game show producer criticized Hollywood Squares for writing funny answers for their celebrity panel, even though they still had to give a proper and unrehearsed response later. In 2001, a game show on UPN titled Manhunt received negative press when a producer revealed certain scenes had been scripted. The show, about people being hunted by paintballers on a remote island In Hawaii actually shot some scenes at a Los Angeles park. Those were gray areas in which the lines between entertainment and competition seemed to blur. Is a competition with physical skill or talent and intellectual contest. Could you get in trouble for rigging a singing competition or a stand up comedy game? No one is really sure.
- [40:26]
George Bridegam
So, I mean, I think it's debatable whether or not comedy is an intellectual exercise or whether or not something like singing would be an intellectual exercise. But yeah, I mean, it's fairly broad what intellectual even means.
- [40:38]
Tom Brokaw
What's more, the FCC rule only applies to over the air broadcasting networks. Something on Netflix wouldn't be of concern, but Fox was and is a broadcaster on public airwaves. If our Little Genius was indeed tainted by improper disclosure of information, then USC 509 would certainly apply.
- [41:03]
George Bridegam
A show like Our Little Genius, I don't think there'd be any doubt that it would come within the purview of the. The statute. I mean, that's the very quintessential type of quiz show that the statute was designed for.
- [41:16]
Tom Brokaw
In order for that to happen, the FCC would have to learn about it in the first place. But back home in Arizona, Ben was having trouble coming to terms with the Our Little Genius debacle.
- [41:28]
Lester Holt
Yeah, so in, in the immediate aftermath and in the the time to follow, I honestly did not talk about it very much. I didn't really want to. I felt embarrassed about the fact that I had wasted. I felt like I had wasted so much of their time, my father's time and my mom and my brother and my grandfather's time, because they all got flown out with me, you know, to LA to do this.
- [41:52]
Tom Brokaw
Worse, Ben felt like he had been cheated out of a fair shot.
- [41:56]
Lester Holt
And so, yeah, in the immediate aftermath, I'm feeling frustrated, I'm feeling cheated of an opportunity to have actually earned my way. I'm feeling ashamed of myself for cheating, for knowing that they had given me an answer, and for bowing to the pressure to go forward with it.
- [42:16]
Tom Brokaw
Finally, his father, Sherman, decided to sit down and pen a letter to Mark Burnett Productions. In it, he detailed what he felt was impropriety on the part of the production of Our Little Genius. Genius. He wasn't the only one. In a separate letter sent in December 2009 to the FCC, the parent of another contestant detailed a surprisingly similar story. The parent alleged that a producer had phoned with a list of categories that might be in the show to assess whether their child was well versed in them. Here's George Bridegam again.
- [42:55]
George Bridegam
And your son needs to know the Italian names of the piano pedals and was getting so hyper specific that this parent was convinced that the producer was essentially feeding him what the questions were going to be. In advance of the taping, the parent.
- [43:10]
Tom Brokaw
Stated they suspected the producer had given them four specific answers to questions because the child was coming on as a music prodigy. The parents were told they should brush up on the names of musical notes and that it was very important the child knew the 64th note Hemidemi semiquaver. When the parent broached their concerns over how the show questions were selected in a meeting with a production lawyer before taping their child's appearance was abruptly canceled. Whether they actually got the relevant answers remained unclear since the child never appeared on the show. But it was enough for the FCC to take action and launch an investigation and that may have made some kind of history.
- [44:04]
George Bridegam
So, interestingly enough, from the time the statute was created in 1950s all the way to the present time, I believe our Little Genius is the only show that the FCC actually seriously investigated for violating the statute.
- [44:21]
Tom Brokaw
Soon Our Little Genius was becoming our little scandal. In January 2010, just a week before the series was scheduled to premiere, the New York Times reported that Fox was pulling the show, which was supposed to air directly after American Idol. Instead, a rerun of the 450th episode of the Simpsons would air in its place. Eight episodes had been taped. None would ever see the light of day. According to CO creator Mike Darnell, Burnett had found certain information that was relayed in a way Mark found worrisome and offered to reshoot the show by paying for production costs out of his own pocket. According to the Los Angeles Times, it was Burnett who informed Fox there was an issue. In his own statement, Mark Burnett said that some concerns had surfaced about contestants being given more information than needed and that the company was no longer comfortable moving forward with the show. Burnett said the following I recently discovered that there was an issue with how some information was relayed to CL contestants during the pre production of Our Little Genius. As a result, I am not comfortable delivering the episodes without reshooting them. I believe my series must always be beyond reproach, so I have requested that Fox not air these episodes.
- [45:54]
Jason English
Mark Burnett is one of the preeminent producers of unscripted programming on television. Even though we were incredibly pleased with the quality of Our Little Genius, we respect and appreciate his due diligence and the decision to pull these episodes. We agree there can be no question about the integrity of our shows. While these episodes will not air, the Families who participated in the show will receive their winnings, and we are grateful for their participation.
- [46:18]
Tom Brokaw
This decision triggered an intriguing dilemma. The FCC rule prohibiting the orchestration of game shows applies to shows that, per the rule, are intended to mislead the public. But how can you mislead the public if your show is never seen by the public? What jurisdiction does the FCC have over a show alleged to be improper when it never airs? That question was never really put to the test. While the FCC reportedly opened an investigation into our little genius, they never arrived at any conclusion. Since it was never broadcast, it would be hard for anyone, the FCC included, to argue viewers had been misled. It just disappeared. And even if it had aired, the FCC's purview would probably have been limited to the broadcaster, Fox, not the production company. According to George Bridegam, once the decision was made not to air the show, the FCC abandoned its investigation.
- [47:27]
George Bridegam
There's a legitimate question about whether or not a crime even occurred. A good analogy would be if a cop were to sit in a bar and see a guy get absolutely drunk, go and grab his car keys and start to walk out towards his car, stop him before he even gets into the car and says, hey, we're going to conduct a DUI investigation, and it's clear that this guy's got completely drunk, but he never actually drives the car. Did he commit a dui? No, of course not. It's sort of the same thing that Fox did here. The show is never actually broadcast across the air, and this statute is designed to protect the viewing public. So if the viewing public isn't ever being deceived with anything, there's really no reason for the FCC to continue pursuing the investigation.
- [48:12]
Tom Brokaw
Naturally, we wanted to get the other party's side of the the story. We requested a comment from Fox but didn't receive a reply. Mark Burnett was not able to be reached for comment, and Mike Darnell's representatives did not respond to a request for comment. To be clear, the FCC never disclosed or alleged any evidence of wrongdoing. To the credit of Mark Burnett, Mike Darnell, Fox, and everyone else involved, once suggestions of impropriety were discovered, they yanked the show. But was it improper? Asked about the controversy later in 2010, Kevin Pollock said, quote, there were some questions along the way as to how do you find out what a little genius actually does or does not know prior to the quiz? End quote. Where's the line between assessing a kid's knowledge and giving them knowledge? Between seeing if a kid knows about Dinosauria and if he knows the name Harry Seeley between knowing musical notes and specifically knowing about the hemidemisemiquaver.
- [49:23]
George Bridegam
Well, ultimately it'd be up to a jury about where the line is for all of this. Could you meet with a contestant ahead of time and say, hey, we want to make sure your child is at least somewhat familiar with these topics? I think you probably could, but where the clear line is, is you definitely can't be telling them what the questions are in advance and then presenting it to the viewing public as if the contestants hearing this information for the first time or they're getting these questions for the first time.
- [49:53]
Tom Brokaw
But it does leave a pretty big unanswered question. What would be the reason for slipping crucial trivia to the the kids? Why not just let them answer and let the chips fall where they may? George Brim has a theory.
- [50:11]
George Bridegam
And then it's from the parents FCC complaint. They gave answers to probably about three or four questions. And it seemed kind of apparent that the production wanted the children to be able to get at least through three or four questions. They didn't want them all to be getting knocked out at the very first question because that just doesn't make very interesting tv.
- [50:32]
Tom Brokaw
Perhaps producers had realized they had concocted a show that was too difficult for kids to excel in, that watching children fail over and over again wasn't going to be palatable to audiences. And so some steps needed to be taken to better their chances. That could be the reason the show also elected to institute the do over where kids who missed out on the first four questions got a second chance. A change made later on and just before episodes were being taped. But if this was about making the audience feel good and the kids feel good, it did a lousy job of it. Ben Moeller didn't feel anything but resentment. He had come to pass play an honest game. And in his view, that opportunity never came and it affected him deeply.
- [51:27]
Lester Holt
Now, here's another kind of darkly humorous aspect to the story is that after a couple of hours alone in the hotel room, that little boy perished in that hotel room. The adolescent who emerged afterwards was a little bit older, a little bit smarter and wiser about how the world really works, you know, but not the same person. At the beginning and end of that.
- [51:49]
Tom Brokaw
Day, there were consequences that went well beyond preparing contestants for a game. Kids as young as six were being put in positions of feeling inadequate in front of an audience, of letting their parents down, or if a parent should decide their child couldn't answer a question, feeling their parents didn't Believe in them. It was bumpy psychological territory. The cardinal sin of our little genius may not have been that it divulged some information to the kids. It was that kids should never be signing contracts warning them that a TV show could cause severe emotional distress.
- [52:32]
Lester Holt
No, I didn't think that this was going to be anything controversial. Right. I really took at face value that this was. I was being given a chance to answer questions using the knowledge that I had to potentially win my way to be able to not worry about college tuition. And, like, what a huge relief that would have been. Like, what a. It is hard not to think about how different my trajectory would have been if I had legitimately been given that chance. My understanding was that this would be a legit chance. And so I studied. You know, I put my back into it with the understanding that, like, this is the opportunity. You're never going to get an opportunity.
- [53:07]
Tom Brokaw
Opportunity like this Again, what about the other little geniuses? The show's publicity material didn't use last names, which makes locating them difficult. We approached one other player we could identify, but because he was just 6 at the time, he couldn't recall a whole lot. The person's parents, while not consenting to an interview, told us they were never given information by the show's producers, meaning that not all little geniuses had the same experience. As of this recording, Ben is the only contestant from Our Little Genius to come forward publicly. In 2021, he decided to speak to reporter John Deanna of the Arizona Republic and detail his experiences. It was difficult then and it's difficult now. He wasn't sure he wanted to revisit the the story for this podcast, but ultimately he decided to move forward.
- [54:05]
Lester Holt
So I didn't talk about it much with my parents. I didn't want to. I didn't talk about it at all, really, to my friends for many years afterwards because I just didn't know how to tell the story.
- [54:18]
Tom Brokaw
This story has mostly been about Ben Mohler as a 10 year old, as though he were frozen in time. But our little genius was 15 years ago. There's another Ben Moeller story to tell. The one where Ben decides there's a lot of learning left to do.
- [54:35]
Lester Holt
But at the time, my response was, you just have to learn more. Nose to the grindstone, take the opportunities as they come.
- [54:42]
Tom Brokaw
He had worried about missing out on college. Instead, it was the loss that drove him to work harder than ever.
- [54:50]
Lester Holt
I made the choice the same day to double down on paleontology. I blamed myself for not knowing enough. Even If I disagreed with the questions that I had been given, I still felt that. I felt that I had been right, but that if I had still known more, I would have done better.
- [55:08]
Tom Brokaw
Ben attended the University of Arizona and earned two degrees, one in ecology and evolutionary biology and one in the geosciences. He digs up dinosaur bones with an adult's knowledge and a 10 year old's curiosity. He pursues his passion as a researcher and educator, even after the quiz show experience threatened to contaminate it. And he's found some measure of peace in realizing his younger self isn't to blame. His love of science is intact.
- [55:42]
Lester Holt
I would say what from the beginning really hooked me about paleontology and has continued to keep me in this space, even now at age 25, is just the fact that there's really no limit to the number of questions you can ask paleontology. The purview of this, of this field of study is all of Earth history and every aspect of the Earth.
- [56:06]
Tom Brokaw
Now Ben Mahler can be the one asking all the questions he wants, and he relishes not always knowing the answer. This whole episode made me just stressed out in general. It made me nervous for quiz show producers, it made me nervous for parents, and it made me anxious for children. This was just a very anxious episode for me.
- [56:33]
Dana Schwartz
Oh, my God.
- [56:34]
Lester Holt
Yeah.
- [56:34]
Dana Schwartz
It was so surprisingly moving. When he says the line about the hotel room, he relishes not always knowing the answer at the very end. But before that, when he's talking about the little boy who perished symbolically in that hotel room broke my heart. I was like, oh, my God, I'm not a parent. Thank God, because I think I would make terrible decisions and put my children in these places where they would have these stories and I'd have to hear them on a podcast and go, oh, man, I messed up. But that little boy broke my heart. And then I was so glad that he made it. I became a paleontologist. This whole story was a rollercoaster.
- [57:04]
Tom Brokaw
Kids should never, though, feel like financial responsibility for their family. That's what stressed me out the most. I thought that these kids knew that the money mattered and what they had. Real world implications like that broke my heart.
- [57:17]
Dana Schwartz
His brother's future is hanging on how well he does as a 10 year old on a crazy set. And he's being told it was crazy for me. Just like also 2009. What a wild time in reality TV. They were just throwing everything at the wall. I'd forgotten how crazy it was.
- [57:30]
Tom Brokaw
Jason. See, this is why what you did was okay because your child wasn't under financial pressure. It was just entertainment.
- [57:37]
Sarah Burnett
Well, so I'll tell you the story here. When she was 2, we had a series of placemats. They were like $2 placemats I'd gotten from Kmart. And one of them had all the pictures of the presidents. And she's learning to talk. She'd point and say, who's this? Who's this? And so I would say, that's Richard Nixon.
- [57:58]
Tom Brokaw
Richard Nixon, who shows up in every one of these episodes.
- [58:01]
Sarah Burnett
And then she would ask, what does he say? And I just thought it was a funny thing. So we filmed a little video. And so I'd ask her, what does Ronald Reagan say? She'd say, Mr. Gorbachev, tear down that wall. So we posted that on YouTube, and Gawker picked it up. At the time, very influential Brian Williams, producer, called and asked if they could run the video on the nightly news. It was like, sure. Good Morning America played it the next day.
- [58:31]
Lester Holt
Wow.
- [58:31]
Sarah Burnett
You know, Millions of views. And then Rachael Ray's team called and said, would you guys want to come on and talk about the making of this video? And we're like, okay, we'll come on. And we get there, and they've recreated, like, a giant version of this placemat and put it in the middle of the set. And they have us come out, and little Charlotte gets asked questions and has to go and point at the board and do her little impressions. And it was incredibly stressful in the moment of, like, oh, my God, what are we doing? And the Rachael Ray staff was great. They're like, look, if it doesn't work, like, we just won't run it. It's fine. Like, they had the dogs from the dog show there that day. And so that was, like, a fun thing backstage. We have good photos with Rachael Ray.
- [59:18]
Dana Schwartz
Oh, that's awesome.
- [59:19]
Sarah Burnett
But there was no money or no scandal. I had given her the answers, drilled the answers into her over our placemat learnings.
- [59:27]
Dana Schwartz
No, wait. I had to know something. What does Charlotte say about this? What does she recall of this moment? Does she?
- [59:33]
Sarah Burnett
Yeah, doesn't recall it at all. But we have the Brian Williams video and the Rachael Ray video, which we occasionally pop out when her friends come over. And she'll act embarrassed, but I think she thinks it's pretty cool. Now we're in college essay season where she could take this.
- [59:50]
Tom Brokaw
Oh, yeah.
- [59:51]
Sarah Burnett
Like, any direction. It can be like my stage dad trying to make me the breadwinner after the 2008 financial crisis, I'm gonna insist.
- [60:01]
Tom Brokaw
That you send me this video.
- [60:03]
Dana Schwartz
Yeah, this is gold.
- [60:04]
Tom Brokaw
I can't believe I've never seen this.
- [60:06]
Sarah Burnett
Maybe we can play a little of it here in the episode.
- [60:08]
Tom Brokaw
I would love to. You may have heard of the term.
- [60:11]
Tom Yamas
Presidential scholar, but the following piece of video, which got very big on the web today, brings new meaning to that term. Two year old Charlotte English of Wayne, New Jersey got a place mat showing the US Presidents on it as a gift from her trivia buff dad who.
- [60:28]
Tom Brokaw
Bought it for her at Kmart.
- [60:30]
Tom Yamas
Check out her knowledge.
- [60:32]
Sarah Burnett
Hey, what are you doing to your place? Matt, can you show me where Richard Nixon is? And what does he say? I'm neckless. Very good. Where's Ronald Reagan? That's right. And what does he say?
- [60:53]
Tom Brokaw
Mr. Cumberland, tear down that roll.
- [60:56]
Sarah Burnett
That's right. Very Special Episodes is made by some very special people. Today's episode was written by Jake Rawson. He's one of our most prolific contributors. His last episode was the one about the time the Harlem Globetrotters actually lost. He's written about stolen moon rocks, the kid inside the ET costume, and many more and more to come. Our show is hosted by Dana Schwartz, Zarin Burnett and Jason English. Our producer is Josh Fisher. Editing and sound design by Jonathan Washington. Mixing and mastering by Behead Frazier. Additional editing by Mary Dew. Original Music by Elise McCoy. Show logo by Lucy Quintanilla. Our Executive producer is Jason English. If you ever want to email the show, hit us up at Very Special episodesmail.com Very Special episodes is a production of Iheart Podcasts.
- [61:59]
Ryan Seacrest
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- [62:58]
Tom Yamas
Hey, it's Ryan Seacrest for Albertsons and safeway now through June 24th. Score hot summer savings and earn four times the points. Look for in store tags on Items like Pepsi 2 liter bottles, poppy prebiotic sodas, all laundry detergent and kinder seasoning blend. Then clip the offer in the app for automatic event long savings. Enjoy savings on top of savings when you shop in store or online for easy drive up and go pickup or delivery subject to availability restrictions. Visit Albertsons or Safeway.com for more details.
- [63:28]
Ryan Seacrest
This is Jenny Garth from I do part two.
- [63:30]
Tom Brokaw
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Ryan Seacrest
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- [64:29]
Tom Yamas
This is an I Heart podcast.