How a Dog Talks: The Surprising Redemption of Comic Sans [from Very Special Episodes]

Summary

Podcast Summary: Noble Blood Presents "How a Dog Talks: The Surprising Redemption of Comic Sans"

Podcast: Noble Blood (Very Special Episodes)
Host: Dana Schwartz (feat. Jason English, Zarin Burnett, guests: Terrence Weinsdrail, Dave Combs, Thomas Finney, Thrandy Hudgens)
Air Date: July 26, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Dana Schwartz and the Very Special Episodes team take a deep dive into the surprising and circuitous history of Comic Sans – a typeface almost universally reviled by designers, but loved (or at least used) by millions of everyday people. The episode traces the unlikely origins of the font, the backlash that turned it into an internet joke and a cultural shorthand for “bad taste,” and its quiet, surprising redemptions—especially in accessibility for people with dyslexia. By rehumanizing its creator and highlighting Comic Sans’ unintended impact, the episode reframes the font as a misunderstood underdog.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins and Purpose of Comic Sans

• Microsoft’s 90s Optimism – Dana paints a picture of Microsoft’s culture in 1994: “A time before social media, algorithms, AI everything… When tech was trying to be approachable, accessible, friendlier, even fun.” (02:39)
• Microsoft Bob & Skeuomorphism (06:35–09:05)
  • “Bob took skeuomorphism and turned the dial all the way up, replacing your desktop with a cartoon room where every object had a job.” (08:25)
  • The program’s iconic digital assistant, Rover the golden retriever, was the original “speaker” Comic Sans was designed for.
• Creation Process (11:25–13:06)
  • Type designer Vincent Connare (Vinnie) noticed that Bob’s talking dog spoke in Times New Roman. His response: “That is not how a dog talks.” (11:40)
  • Inspired by comic books (“Watchmen” and “The Dark Knight Returns”), Connare drew Comic Sans quickly—“The joy for me was not making it right or perfect or straight.” (13:06)

2. Comic Sans Escapes and Spreads

• Bundling with Windows 95 – “Comic Sans didn’t become popular because it was perfect. It became popular because it was everywhere.” (15:51)
• Democratizing Typography
  • “Comic Sans is really standing out in a room full of suits, other formal typefaces. Comic Sans is like the denim on the rack… the most human, the most casual…” — Terrence Weinsdrail (16:17)

3. Backlash & The Policing of Taste

• The ‘Ban Comic Sans’ Campaign (19:03–22:11)
  • Graphic designer Dave Combs started the movement after seeing Comic Sans in “serious” contexts: “It was being used in medical information, important flyers… and that offended me as a typography aficionado.” (20:59)
  • The campaign included stickers (“Ban Comic Sanskrit”), a website, and apparel—“He became, in his words, the self-appointed typography police… but he did have stickers.” (22:11)
• Anatomy of the Backlash (24:45–25:39)
  • Font choices become a class marker—a “way to perform taste” (25:39).
  • “It really feels like there’s some kind of bandwagon effect… some of the people who turned up their noses got a kick out of pointing out how knowledgeable and superior they were.” — Thomas Finney (24:58)
  • Weinsdrail analogy: “Comic Sans is like the Crocs of the shoe world. Super casual. If you were a shoe designer and you saw the popularity of Crocs, it would probably burn you.” (25:57)

4. The Human Impact and Redemption

• Creator’s Perspective
  • Connare was hurt seeing his face on “ban” stickers: “What’s the point? Haven’t they got anything better to do?” (26:31)
  • The feud ends amicably: “A quiet handshake ending a surprisingly personal skirmish.” (27:53)
• Dave Combs’ Change of Heart
  • “I started to see [Vincent] more as a human than as a bad guy who made a bad font.” (27:53)
  • “Comic Sans is misunderstood more than anything, and I can relate to that.” (29:15)
• A ‘Typographical Apology’
  • “I intentionally use Comic Sans [on my business card] because we’re pals now.” — Dave Combs (29:51)

5. Comic Sans as an Accessibility Tool

• Thrandy Hudgens’ Story (32:18–37:43)
  • An American biologist with dyslexia, Thrandy found that changing his emails to Comic Sans made reading and writing easier: “I just knew that when I used the fun fonts, it was easier to write my emails.” (33:17)
  • For people with dyslexia, the irregular, distinct forms of Comic Sans letters can be easier to process: “Because the letters are differently shaped, it doesn’t get as wibbly with your eyes… so much easier to read for dyslexics.” — Thrandy Hudgens (35:08)
  • Thrandy’s journey: “When I was 19, I could barely write a paragraph. Now I am 39 and doing my PhD.” (36:33)
• Expert Perspective
  • “If Comic Sans helps a dyslexic person read better, faster, that’s great for society. So Comic Sans has earned its right to exist.” — Terrence Weinsdrail (38:48)
  • “Art doesn’t have to be beautiful to be effective... It doesn’t have to be perfect to fulfill its duty.” (39:08)

6. Pop Culture and Personal Stories

• Comic Sans in the Wild
  • Favorite “misuses” included a war monument in Cherbourg and personal anecdotes about mothers using Comic Sans to bring joy to communication. (41:19–41:28)
  • A lighthearted debate on which “Office” star would play the people involved in the Comic Sans saga, symbolizing the font’s cultural penetration and normalization. (40:12–40:36)

7. Final Reflections

• Redemption and Acceptance
  • “Maybe Comic Sans did exactly what it was designed to do… make technology feel more friendly, more accessible. This funny, round, friendly font has… broken down barriers.” (38:25)
  • “It doesn’t have to impress designers or win arguments online. Sometimes it just has to help someone.” (39:33)

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Memorable Moments and Notable Quotes

• “That is not how a dog talks.” — Vincent Connare, via Terrence Weinsdrail (11:40)
• “Comic Sans…like the denim in a room full of suits…the most human, the most casual…” — Terrence Weinsdrail (16:17)
• “[Comic Sans] became a quick way to tell who did and who didn’t…Not knowing when to use Comic Sans was a cultural shorthand for taste, education, belonging, or lack thereof.” — Dana Schwartz (22:11)
• “Comic Sans is like the Crocs of the shoe world.” — Terrence Weinsdrail (25:57)
• “I have kind of a silly personality...sometimes I feel like I don’t belong. So I get it. Comic Sans, it’s rough out there…and you get a lot of hate from people that maybe just don’t understand you.” — Dave Combs (29:15)
• “Because the letters are differently shaped, it doesn’t get as wibbly with your eyes…so much easier to read for dyslexics.” — Thrandy Hudgens (35:08)
• “If Comic Sans helps a dyslexic person read better, faster, that’s great for society. So Comic Sans has earned its right to exist.” — Terrence Weinsdrail (38:48)
• “Art doesn’t have to be beautiful to be effective. It doesn’t have to be perfect to fulfill its duty.” — Terrence Weinsdrail (39:08)
• “It doesn’t have to impress designers or win arguments online. Sometimes it just has to help someone.” — Dana Schwartz (39:33)

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Timestamps for Significant Segments

• Comic Sans’ Origins and Microsoft Bob — 02:39–13:06
• Spread via Windows 95 & Accessibility — 15:18–16:38, 32:18–37:43
• The Ban Comic Sans Backlash — 19:03–27:53
• Redemption and Reassessment — 27:53–29:51
• Comic Sans and Dyslexia — 32:18–37:43
• Final Reflections: Art, Imperfection, & Accessibility — 38:25–39:33
• Cast of Characters & Pop Culture — 40:12–42:08

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Episode Insights

• Comic Sans is a product of its time: a symbol of digital optimism, designed for a friendly, approachable UI that never quite caught on—but the font did.
• The backlash against Comic Sans is as much about social signaling (“If you know, you know”) as it is about design preferences.
• Personal narratives reveal why Comic Sans still matters: For some, it’s a lifesaver, not a punchline.
• The episode closes with warmth and empathy, advocating for seeing the people—and the intent—behind design choices.

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In Dana Schwartz’s words:
“Comic Sans was built to be friendly. And it turns out Comic Sans has been helping people all along, just not the people doing the mocking.” (29:57)

Summary by Section Ends.

Transcript

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[Dana Schwartz]

It's been called the cockroach of typefaces, a font of ill will and the default punchline in the design community. We're talking about Comic Sans, that round, friendly, comic book style font that everyone loves to hate. But why? How did hating Comic Sans become a kind of shorthand for good taste? And how did this particular font, one of only a few most people can name on site, end up as a cultural joke? Comic Sans was created for a very specific purpose at a very specific time. A time before social media, algorithms, AI everything, and cybertrucks, when tech was trying to be approachable, accessible, friendlier, even fun. An awful lot has changed since then. You hear news of slip dresses, CDs and other 90s relics having a resurgence. Why not Comic Sans? Is it really fair to hate on a font so much? Because it's possible Comic Sans actually succeeded, just not in a way its critics ever imagined. Welcome to very special episodes, an iHeart's original podcast. I'm your host, Dana Schwartz, and this is how a dog the surprising redemption of Comic Sans.

[Jason English]

Hey, welcome back to very special episodes. I'm Jason English. She is Dana Schwartz.

[Zarin Burnett]

Hey. Hey.

[Jason English]

He is Zarin Burnett.

[Casting Director]

I know you heard that.

[Jason English]

Do any of you have a Comic Sans subplot from your own lives?

[Podcast Narrator]

You know what?

[Zarin Burnett]

I'll say. I started resenting the Comic Sans backlash

[Dana Schwartz]

because it felt very lazy.

[Zarin Burnett]

I don't like when people just sort of bandwagon on a thing they're told to hate. When I'm like half the people, probably 90% of the people pretending, you know, hating Comic Sans online. It's like, when have you ever had an opinion about a font? You're just making fun of people that you perceive to be, like, unsophisticated or not, like, in the know, like you. So I just, I have a knee jerk reaction always to kind of defend the underdog against people looking for an opportunity just to be snarky. So I'm pro Comic Sans.

[Casting Director]

I'm right there with you, Dana, for the exact same reasoning. Like, I always stick up for the underdog, and Comic Sans is like the super underdog.

[Jason English]

I have a quick story. Very early in my career, I'm working as a junior copywriter, maybe even an intern copywriter at that point, at an ad agency here in New York. And if you remember, Chandler, that season on Friends, that was me. And my brilliant British creative director boss had brought me in to work on a kids candy campaign. And we had all these headlines and I'm gathering them into a presentation, and because it's supposed to be coming out of the mouths of kids, I am using a Comic Sans font and I'm nervous. Anyway, this is Again, very early on, right after college, and he comes in to review them in my little cube and. And I'm nervously scrolling and showing them on the screen, and he looks me right in the eye and says, I hate this font. And then that was it, walked away. No comments on any of the work, probably hours and hours, days. So I have been scarred by that and I want to see a redemption here.

[Zarin Burnett]

Totally amazing

[Dana Schwartz]

picture this. It's a Sunny Day in 1994. You're on the leafy campus of Microsoft in Redmond, Washington, not far from Seattle. Microsoft is already a behemoth. It's powerful, profitable, and poised. 1994 is the first year that Americans spend almost as much money on computers as they do on television sets. And this is just before Windows 95 changes everything.

[Terrence Weinsdrail]

I think that they were growing fast. They were obviously very productive at that moment in time. They're cranking stuff out. Optimism is high in the 90s.

[Dana Schwartz]

That's Terrance, a type designer who worked on updating comic sans for 21st century use.

[Terrence Weinsdrail]

My name is Terrence Weinsdrail. I am an executive creative director at Monotype and Monotype Designs. Design distributes and manages fonts all over the world.

[Dana Schwartz]

Even though he wasn't working at Microsoft back then, Terrence knows a bit about how fonts got made in those heady days of 1994. Comic Sans is very much a relic of the 90s, a time when computers were clunky, weird, and oddly optimistic. Before tech got sleek and intimidating. It was trying to be friendly.

[Terrence Weinsdrail]

They were experimenting, and I think they were trying everything. And really computer interfaces were new and so something like Microsoft bob. And this skeuomorphism was really an extreme example of how can we take this new tool and make it as approachable as possible and make people want to learn it.

[Dana Schwartz]

Skeuomorphism is a design strategy that brings something from the old into the new to make it more acceptable. Think of how the trash on your computer looks like a trash can. That strategy helped a lot of people in the early 90s, when personal computers were new and scary. Bob took skeuomorphism and turned the dial all the way up, replacing your desktop with a cartoon room where every object had a job. When you open bob, you are greeted by a shiny gold door knocker on a bright red door.

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[Dana Schwartz]

Yes, this is the Scooty bed. Knock and suddenly are inside a cozy, if garish living room. There's a roaring fireplace, a striped armchair, a coffee table, and Helpful props everywhere. A Rolodex, a wall calendar, a checkbook resting nearby. Bob's goal was to make using your computer simple, friendly and clear. Want to balance your checkbook? Click the checkbook. Need to see your schedule? Tap the calendar, looking for someone's number. Obviously the Rolodex. And this wasn't some fringe side project. Bob had six serious people behind it. The marketing manager was Melinda French, who had just married Bill Gates. She might have had something to do with Bob's introducing hard working, easygoing software everyone will use that didn't quite work out. Bob was supposed to be so easy to use that it didn't even come with a manual. It did, however, ship with a copy of Bob magazine, including a feature describing a perfect day with Bob writing letters, paying bills, planning reunions, ordering pizza, and still getting to bed by 11. But the key part of Bob for our story is that it came with assistants, officially known as the Friends of Bob. They helped you use the program and customize your space. Options included Chaos the cat or Be the Globe, Java the coffee drinking reptile, and Scuzz the rat. Scuzz would occasionally rummage through a garbage can, but the default assistant was Rover, an easy to work with golden retriever. Clicking on him would bring up a dialog bubble with Rover saying, I can dig up information and fetch whatever you need. Oh, and I'll stay off the furniture. And it's those dialogue bubbles from Rover that we have to thank for Comic Sans.

[Terrence Weinsdrail]

Yeah. So Vinnie is at Microsoft and he sees this cartoon dog speaking in times of Roman. And like any good typographer or type designer, he thinks to himself, this doesn't fit the vibe of this typeface, doesn't match the rest of the interface.

[Dana Schwartz]

Vinnie is type designer Vincent Conner, who joined Microsoft in 1993. Vincent told us he's now retired from doing interviews about Comic Sans. But When Twitter user ecktrek97 asked him, why did you create Comic Sans, bro? He replied, the Microsoft Bob team asked me what I thought of their dog talking in Times New Roman. He told them, that is not how a dog talks. Vincent had a fair bit of freedom at Microsoft. He told the author Simon Garfield, it was nothing like the traditional type production. It was me in a room, not answering to anybody and not following the rules. In the 90s, there was this punk mentality around digital type because it was still quite new. All kinds of wacky stuff. People were scanning things in and converting and stealing. Vincent didn't steal anything to create Comic Sans, but he did have inspirations so

[Terrence Weinsdrail]

he's inspired by comic book lettering, and he has some comic books in his office. So he designs comic sans to replace times and Roman in this specific kind of use case with this cartoon. And apparently he made it very quickly and he drew it with a digital pen only.

[Dana Schwartz]

Vincent has said that he drew the font in a program called Macromedia fontographer. A big fan of comics and graphic novels, he was particularly inspired by the lettering in Watchmen and the Dark Knight Returns. The font was meant to be friendly, not perfect. At first, it wasn't even a complete typeface. The spacing was inconsistent. The shapes didn't all match. Lowercase p wasn't a mere opposite of q, as it often is in sans serif fonts. In other words, comic sans broke all the rules. Vincent has said the joy for me was not making it right or perfect or straight. His boss at Microsoft, Robert Norton, reportedly offered suggestions for tightening things up. But Vincent liked the wonkiness with each letter its own shape. Alas, comic sands never actually made it into Bob Rover kept on speaking in times New Roman. Perhaps because comic sans didn't quite fit inside the speech bubbles, Bob itself was a massive, memorable flop. Time magazine named it among the 50 worst inventions alongside new Coke and subprime mortgages. The flop wasn't because of its fonts. Bob was incompatible with most computers of its time. For one thing, the program required eight megabytes of memory, about twice the typical amount of many home PCs then. Plus, reviewers found the program and its cartoon helpers infinite. Tantalizing. It seemed better suited for kids than smart adults who just needed an on ramp to a new technology. But Comic sans didn't sync with Bob. The font showed up in a program called 3D Movie Maker and was released as a Bonus product to Windows 95, then a full system font. It also ended up on Microsoft products designed for Macs.

[Terrence Weinsdrail]

So it gets bundled into Windows 95, which is a smashing success, right? There are just millions of copies of Windows 95 going out, and Comic sans goes along with it. So the most important part of the popularity of Comic sans is frankly, the distribution. Comic sans is on millions of computers in the hands of millions of people who are not classically trained graphic designers. And so they're going to choose typefaces at free will. That's when it goes wild.

[Dana Schwartz]

Comic Sans didn't become popular because it was perfect. It became popular because it was everywhere. At Microsoft, Vincent noticed people using Comic sans for birthday party invitations and event signups. There were only a handful of font choices on Windows 95 Ariel Courier New a few others Comic Sans was the only one that felt like it had a pulse.

[Terrence Weinsdrail]

And so if you think about Comic Sans is really standing out in a room full of suits, other formal typefaces. Comic Sans is like the denim on the rack, and it stands out as being the most human, the most casual, the most approachable, the most humble, the most friendly typeface in that list.

[Dana Schwartz]

But once Comic Sans escaped into the wild, something unexpected happened. Because when everybody suddenly has access to the same tools, not everyone agrees on how they should be used or who should be using them.

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[Terrence Weinsdrail]

Early type designing and setting was so laborious that it is a blasphemy to

[Dana Schwartz]

the history of the craft that any

[Terrence Weinsdrail]

fool can sit down at their personal computer and design their own typeface. Technological advances have transformed typography and into a tawdry triviality.

[Dana Schwartz]

That screed comes from the ban comic sans facebook page. It's a place where users gather to trade what they see as the most egregious uses of the font. A war monument in cherbourg, A hospital referral form, A mosaic in italy, A condolence notice, a church bulletin. Places where the tone is supposed to be solemn. And suddenly it's not. Where the wrong typeface doesn't just look bad, it feels like a violation. Comic sans wasn't just showing up. It was showing up in all the wrong places. That text didn't just live on facebook either. It originally appeared on the website for the ban comic sans campaign. Started in 2002, the campaign included a manifesto, posters and stickers, A small arsenal of typographic enforcement. And it all went back to one man.

[Dave Combs]

When I first experienced comic sans, I thought it was poorly designed. I thought it was kind of childish and silly.

[Dana Schwartz]

That man is dave combs.

[Dave Combs]

I'm a graphic designer, artist, publisher, Bit of a miscreant and instigator in some ways. I'm a typography nerd, I guess you could say.

[Dana Schwartz]

Dave noticed that comic sans was being used in serious contexts, such as medical

[Dave Combs]

information, important flyers, and things that people should take seriously. And that offended me as a typography, you know, kind of aficionado, I guess you would say. And so I kind of knee jerk reaction started a campaign to ban it.

[Dana Schwartz]

To people who care deeply about design, typography is a signal. It tells you what's serious, what's casual, what deserves respect. And dave wasn't alone in objecting to these uses of comic sans. When his partner holly, a fellow graphic designer, got a gig working for a museum in indianapolis, she discovered that they wanted text for an entire exhibit set in comic sans.

[Dave Combs]

This was very offensive, like, to her sensibilities. And so when she brought it to me and told me that's what she was doing, that also sparked the impetus to, like, what are we going to do about this? So I was like, well, no sense to complain and let's just ban comic sans.

[Dana Schwartz]

He became, in his words, the self appointed typography police. No badge, no jurisdiction, no warrants. But he did have stickers. Dave made a run of them that said ban comic sanskrit. Some included an Image of Vincent Conner's face. He placed them on a doctor's office sign that said accepting new patients in comic sans. The result? The office switched to times New Roman. Dave silk screened T shirts saying ban comic sans. He made mugs. He created a website with downloadable stickers that anyone could print. Before long, the Ban Comic Sans campaign reached a wider audience than Dave or Holly could have imagined. Emails poured in from graphic designers and typography enthusiasts worldwide. The press noticed. One of the first mentions of the campaign came in 2004. Canada's National Post quoted the movement's manifesto comparing the use of Comic Sans in serious contexts to showing up at a black tie event dressed as a clown. It's a metaphor that only works if you already know the dress code. And Comic Sans became a quick way to tell who did and who didn't. Not knowing when to use Comic Sans was a cultural shorthand signaling taste, education, belonging, or lack thereof. If you knew, you knew. If you didn't, it showed. What almost no one was talking about in those conversations was who gets left out when taste gets policed? And it didn't stop with Dave's stickers. There were message boards and online groups devoted entirely to mocking Comic Sans. People shared sightings and photos like birdwatchers, but angrier chrome extensions were built to erase it from websites. One design agency even released a flash based shooting game called Kill Comic Sans, which is a lot of energy for a font. But why did Comic Sans provoke such Ireland, even among people who don't consider themselves to be font nerds? One typography expert has some thoughts.

[Thomas Finney]

I'm Thomas Finney and I do fonts and I kind of do everything to do with fonts in one stripe or another.

[Dana Schwartz]

Thomas is quick to note that he is not part of the backlash movement.

[Thomas Finney]

I think Comic Sans is perfectly fine for some use uses. Was it overused? Sure. Were the reasons it was overused? Understandable why? Yes. But the backlash, I think happened precisely because it was used so heavily and because it was at least some of the time used in situations where it was perhaps inappropriate. And on top of that, though, it really feels like there's some sort of bandwagon effect and some of the people who turned up their noses at Comic Sans got a kick out of pointing out how knowledgeable and superior they were or something.

[Dana Schwartz]

In other words, hating Comic Sans became a shortcut of sorts, a way to perform taste. It wasn't really about the font anymore. Terrence Winesrel has an analogy for why the typeface made some designers so enraged

[Terrence Weinsdrail]

I think it makes people upset because they see it as a missed opportunity for the use of a better typeface that fits that scenario better. Let me hit you with an analogy. Fonts are like shoes. They have an esthetic quality and they have utility. And so Comic Sans is like the Crocs of the shoe world. It is, you know, super casual. And so if you were a shoe designer and you saw the popularity of Crocs, it would probably burn you.

[Dana Schwartz]

Eventually, word about the Ban Comic Sans campaign got back to Vincent Con Air. He was not amused. What's the point? Haven't they got anything better to do? He complained to one journalist. This wasn't just a joke to Vincent, it was his work. His name, his reputation turned into a punchline. Not only was his typeface being publicly roasted, but his face was on the stickers. Imagine walking into a cafe and seeing your own head used as a warning label.

[Dave Combs]

And he said, you need to stop doing this because you're making me look bad. This is my career, this is what I do, and I don't appreciate you using my image on your merchandise or whatever.

[Dana Schwartz]

It never became a full blown feud, but it did get awkward. The design world is tiny. The typography forums even tinier. Before long, a member of a typography forum the men were both in, stepped in to break up the spat. And when the two men realized they they had been invited to the same event in London, they chose detente over drama. A quiet handshake ending a surprisingly personal skirmish. By then, something had started to change for Dave.

[Dave Combs]

We both appreciate typography, and Vincent is a very creative individual. So am I. And I started to see him more as a human than as a bad guy who made a bad font.

[Dana Schwartz]

You know, once Comic Sans had a face and a story, it became harder to treat it as a punchline or a crime.

[Dave Combs]

I mean, he was just trying to make something better that didn't look right to him. He wasn't planning on it being released to the world as a typeface that would be, you know, on every flyer and every website. You know, he was trying to solve a single problem. And then it kind of went viral.

[Dana Schwartz]

To Thomas Finney, the fact that the typeface escaped its original confines is actually a good sign.

[Thomas Finney]

I think it speaks to the strength of the design. I think it's pretty impressive and cool that something that was originally designed for such a narrow use case, talking dog, user interface, word balloons on screen, you know, has become this cultural phenomenon that's

[Terrence Weinsdrail]

wild and very cool these days.

[Dana Schwartz]

Dave Combs has changed his mind entirely about Comic Sans. He's also come to understand something about how creativity gets judged and what that feels like.

[Dave Combs]

I have kind of a silly personality sometimes, and sometimes I just kind of feel like I'm always in the wrong context too. I feel like I'm at places that I don't belong. So I get it. Comic Sans, it's rough out there, you know, and you get a lot of hate from people that maybe just don't understand you. So I feel like Comic Sans is misunderstood more than anything, and I can relate to that.

[Dana Schwartz]

Dave now uses Comic Sans on his business card. Call it a typographical apology.

[Dave Combs]

I intentionally use Comic Sans because we're pals now.

[Dana Schwartz]

After all, that's what Comic Sans was built for, to be friendly. And it turns out Comic Sans has been helping people all along, just not the people doing the mocking.

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[Thrandy Hudgens]

So around 2008 and 2009, I was like, why does writing on the computer have to be exactly as hard as writing by hand?

[Dana Schwartz]

That's Thrandy Hudgens, an American studying for his PhD in biology at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland.

[Thrandy Hudgens]

Yes, I work on old fishing records.

[Dana Schwartz]

Thrandi has spent much of his life on ships, not very connected to the world of technology. But around 2009, during a stint in New Zealand, his family began asking him to stay in touch with more via email and Facebook. And he wanted to stay in touch more with his friends back home. But writing had always been hard for Thrandi. And that's when he discovered the magic of Comic Sans. By typing out his emails in word first and adjusting the font, it became a whole lot easier to communicate.

[Thrandy Hudgens]

When I began to play with the different fonts, that was when I began to really first interact with Comic Sans. But at the time, I did not know what I was doing. I just knew that when I used the fun fonts, it was easier to write my emails, to send to my sister, to my dad, to my friends.

[Dana Schwartz]

Thrandi thought that using Comic Sans made it easier for him to write just because the font sparked joy. Perhaps the feeling of playfulness took away some of the stress that had always been associated with writing for him. You see, Thrandi had dyslexia like an estimated 15 to 20% of Americans. And that's not all.

[Thrandy Hudgens]

So I actually have what I'm pretty sure is like a subtype of dyslexia. My handwriting is appallingly bad, and I cannot make letters and I cannot write by hand to save my life.

[Dana Schwartz]

For some people with dyslexia, Comic Sans is easier to read. And the reason might have to do with the very thing some designers criticized. Remember those wonky, uneven letters mentioned earlier, where each letter is its own shape? The very thing that broke all the font rules? That's a big part of what makes Comic Sans work. For Thrandi and others, our typography expert Terence says that quirkiness might actually be a gift.

[Terrence Weinsdrail]

I do think it's interesting that there are no repeated shapes in Comic Sans, so nothing is a mirror image of itself. In the way that other kind of geometric typefaces are. I think that can help people because each shape is unique, which is something that we look for in legible typefaces.

[Dana Schwartz]

For Thrandy, that tracks.

[Thrandy Hudgens]

And because the letters are differently shaped, it doesn't get as wibbly with your eyes when you're trying to read it because the letters aren't reflected. And it can be so much easier to read for dyslexics.

[Dana Schwartz]

So when letters aren't mirror images, meaning when each one has its own distinct shape, they're potentially easier to process and easier to read for some people like Thrandi, who's more concerned about access than aesthetics.

[Thrandy Hudgens]

So of course I read all of my documents in Comic Sans at this point. I'm sending emails in Comic Sans, I'm sending drafts in Comic Sans. I want to write my whole damn dissertation in Comic Sans, thank you very much. So I've gotten used to like really advocating quite hard for it and using it in my day to day life.

[Dana Schwartz]

Over the years, designers have tried to create typefaces specifically for people with dyslexia, like dyslexia and open dyslexic. But no single typeface works because dyslexia itself is different from person to person. So far, research hasn't identified a magic bullet, but some organizations, including the British Dyslexia association, have pointed to Comic Sans as a helpful option. And when it comes to accessibility, lived experience matters. People often know what works for them better than any study does.

[Thrandy Hudgens]

And now there's lots of dyslexic friendly fonts. But back, you know, in 2008, there wasn't. It was just Comic Sans. This is the font that I've been using for 20 years. When I was 19 years old, I could barely write a paragraph. Now I am 39 and doing my PhD.

[Dana Schwartz]

It took years of advocating for himself, but he's found a degree of acceptance at St. Andrews. When it comes to using Comic Sans,

[Thrandy Hudgens]

is it still hard? Yes. But I think fundamentally people are more inclined to just say meh. If they say it works, it works.

[Dana Schwartz]

Beyond the academic bubble, though, it's a different story.

[Thrandy Hudgens]

Outside of the university, I find that people are still fundamentally very judgmental about comic Sanskrit. And I don't know why. Why do people have such strong opinions about a font? For me, it's the difference between having a degree and not having a degree and then having a doctorate and not having a doctorate. And for you, what it makes you, you don't like looking at it. How can you possibly think These two things are comparable.

[Dana Schwartz]

The gap between what works and what looks right doesn't stay on the page. Thrandi is used to being judged for his choice of font, but when Comic Sans appears in the wild, something else happens.

[Thrandy Hudgens]

When I see that someone has printed a brochure in Comic Sans for their store or for their how to access the food bank or how to file your taxes, I really get happy. To me, it feels like accessibility. You've put the thought in to understand that at the very least, people cannot read Times New Roman well.

[Dana Schwartz]

And so maybe Comic Sans did exactly what it was designed to do. Microsoft Bob may have flopped, but the idea behind it, to make technology feel more friendly, more accessible didn't. This funny, round, friendly font has been a surprise success in some contexts and broken down barriers.

[Terrence Weinsdrail]

If Comic Sans helps a dyslexic person read better, faster, that's great for society. So Comic Sans has earned its right to exist.

[Dana Schwartz]

When Terrence Wine Gerel refreshed the typeface in 2010, he leaned even further into the comic book vibe.

[Terrence Weinsdrail]

Comic Sans has this imperfect human voice that really made it stand out and it reminded me of Wabi Sabi art and philosophy and about kind of celebrating the imperfections of it. Art doesn't have to be beautiful to be effective. And I think that is another good conclusion for Comic Sans. It doesn't have to be perfect to fulfill its duty.

[Dana Schwartz]

It doesn't have to impress designers or win arguments online. Sometimes it just has to help someone. And not for nothing, it really does sound like a dog.

[Jason English]

Zarin, I don't know if you could make a movie out of this, but I'm interested to hear if you were able to cast this one.

[Casting Director]

Oh, yes, and actually I did a whole vibe casting on this one. I didn't want to look them all up and try to decide based on how they look what's the closest actor and actress to portray them. So instead I just went, what's the vibe? And so this is what I came up with. For Vincent Canare, the designer of Comic Sans, I went with Rainn Wilson Dwight from the Office.

[Zarin Burnett]

All right, I see the vision.

[Casting Director]

Okay. And then for the self appointed typography police, Dave Combs and his partner Holly. For Dave, I went with probably gonna see this coming. John Krasinski as Jim from the Office and his partner Holly. Jenna Fisher as Pam from the Office.

[Jason English]

Love it.

[Casting Director]

And so for Thrandy Hudgens, the American Studying for his PhD, I went with BJ Novak from the Office. So you got a full office casting let's reunite the cast.

[Zarin Burnett]

Genius. Who are you casting as the dog?

[Casting Director]

Oh, that's a good question.

[Zarin Burnett]

Virtual dog. That's the important thing.

[Casting Director]

Yes. I did not have a virtual dog. You guys have any ideas?

[Zarin Burnett]

Gotta work on it. You know, one of my cats would be happy to step in.

[Casting Director]

Ooh, I love that call.

[Zarin Burnett]

Just to switch it up for the movie.

[Casting Director]

Should have a cat playing a dog. That's very Comic Sans.

[Zarin Burnett]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Casting Director]

Did you guys have a very special character you loved?

[Zarin Burnett]

I love a cartoon dog.

[Casting Director]

Yes. Yeah. Good call.

[Jason English]

Yeah. I would extend that honor to all of the friends of Bob the Chaos the Cat, Scuzz the Rat, Orbi the Globe, Jabba the Reptile. I think you could do something with them as, like, their own Yo Gabba Gabba.

[Casting Director]

Oh, heck yeah. For me, it was the war monument in Cherbourg. I was like, well, the fact it has Comic Sans is just incredible.

[Thrandy Hudgens]

That one.

[Jason English]

I could see the backlash there. Maybe I'm on board there.

[Casting Director]

Oh, totally. I totally would. That's why I liked it. I think it's like, come on, I know we need to be serious, but this is a very human moment. Also, can I say that this story just actually pulled my heartstrings and made me realize something that had a special bond with my mother over Comic Sans, which is she uses Comic Sans for all of her emails. And I used to roll my eyes like, oh, mom, let's get with the times. No more AOL type emails. But then I realized she was doing it for the same reasons that Thrandy did. Imbue her emails with joy. And then I started loving Comic Sans, and now I look forward to her emails with Comic Sans.

[Jason English]

Well, redemption at last, right?

[Zarin Burnett]

That's so sweet.

[Podcast Producer]

Very Special Episodes is made by some very special people. Today's episode was produced in partnership with School of Humans. The show is hosted by Dana Schwartz, Zarin Burnett, and Jason English. Our senior producer is Josh Fisher. Today's episode was written by Best Lovejoy. Our story editor is Virginia Prescott from School of Humans. Producers are Edeliz Perez and Amelia Brock. Editing and sound design by Jesse Niswonger. Research and fact checking by Austin Thompson and Bess Lovejoy. Original Music by Elise McCoy. Show logo by Lucy Quintanilla. Executive producers of today's episode are Virginia Prescott and Jason English. Very Special Episode is a production of Iheart Podcasts. If you're a fan of the show, go give us a nice rating on your favorite podcast platform. If you ever want to email us, we're very special episodesmail.com. we will see you back here next Wednesday.

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