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- [00:00]
Ria Wong
Hey you, it's Ria Wong. If you're listening to nonprofit Load on, I'm pretty sure that you'd love my weekly newsletter. Every Tuesday morning, you get updates on the newest podcast episodes. And then interspersed, we have fun special invitations for newsletter subscribers only and fundraising inspo because I know what it feels like to be in the trenches alone. On top of that, you get cute dog photos. Best of all, it is free. So what are you waiting for? Head over to riawong.com now to sign up.
- [00:27]
Julia Campbell
Foreign.
- [00:34]
Ria Wong
Welcome to Nonprofit Lowdown. I'm your host, Rhea Wong.
- [00:38]
Rhea Wong
Hey, podcast, Listen to Freya Wong with you once again with nonprofit Lowdown. Today, I am so glad to welcome my friend, one of my favorite guests ever, the one, the only, Julia Campbell, social media maven. And today we are going to talk about social media. Why the state of it is not great. I think it kind of sucks. How to leverage it for year end. Giving Julia, welcome to the show.
- [01:00]
Julia Campbell
Oh, Maria, thank you so much for having me back on. Just like such a breath of fresh air, such a joy to be here.
- [01:08]
Rhea Wong
Oh, you're such a sweetheart. So wait before we jump into it, because I know we can talk about all of the things for people who don't know you, which seems crazy because, Julia Campbell, tell us a little bit about your journey and how you became the social media maven that you are today.
- [01:25]
Julia Campbell
I started my nonprofit journey pretty young. I will not go into all of, I mean, the volunteering that I did in high school and college. I ran a teen program in Boston for a while. I served in the Peace Corps in Senegal and West Africa, worked with a lot of NGO and nonprofits there on a variety of projects. And then started out, really my career as a director of development, then of course, director of development and marketing, and then eventually maybe director of development and marketing and volunteer quarter and all the things and all the hats. And I'm sure a lot of your listeners can relate to that and having all of the sort of different things on your plate. But when I started my business, what I saw, a lot of organizations really struggling to find their voice and convey their message in the digital realm. They were used to direct mail, used to events. They were used to calling donors and having coffees. But they were struggling with their website, their email marketing, and their social media. And so that's really where I staked my flag. And right now I'm a speaker, an author. I have workshops and online courses and I help my clients find their digital voice and really establish their presence, get More visibility and drive more donations online.
- [02:43]
Rhea Wong
That's very succinct. Thank you, Julia. And actually, as you're talking, I was like, I was one of those nonprofit people. Well, especially with social media, because I was like, this is just like an interruption of my, like, I don't understand what you want me to do. I didn't understand the role of social media in the larger framework of how this related to fundraising. And so I, and I came of age during like the Ice Bucket Challenge. I was like, oh, so you just use it to raise money, right?
- [03:07]
Julia Campbell
Yes, yes.
- [03:09]
Rhea Wong
How should we be thinking about social media with respect to building an online brand and working in concert with an overall strategy?
- [03:17]
Julia Campbell
What you just said is so important and so poignant because I feel like that was for a lot of us, our very first experience with the power of social media for raising money. But it was sort of lightning in a bottle. And what's interesting about the Ice Bucket Challenge, it just had its 10 year anniversary that was started by Peter Frates, who's actually from my hometown of Beverly, Massachusetts, and mom Nancy Euphrates. And what Pete wanted to do, he just wanted to raise awareness. He wanted to say, this is what it's like to get the diagnosis of als. It's like having a bucket of ice water poured on you and you're in shock and you don't know what to do. And so for him, it was really just more about, this is what I'm living with. I want to raise awareness around this disease and I want to show people and tell people that there are people in all of our communities like, living with this disease. What's interesting is he was a really famous baseball player at Boston College, and then what happened was the Red Sox, the Boston Red Sox picked it up and then that's when it went viral. So I have a couple of issues. The only issue I have with that is that now nonprofits think that's the gold standard. They think, oh, we can just go viral. Let's just go viral like the Ice Bucket challenge and have 20 million people pouring ice water on their heads and get it to really spur this kind of movement. The issue is now what we know is that Meta and a bunch of these other companies sold us bill of goods, right? They are telling us we need to create a Facebook page, we need to create a LinkedIn page, maybe Instagram, maybe an X account, Normally Twitter, a YouTube channel, and basically do nothing. And the donations are going to roll in. This is what we had been told about 10 years ago, or what we thought what was a misconception? And the issue is, it's like you said, Ria, if it's not baked into your overall strategy and your overall messaging and your overall community building philosophy, it's not going to work. And the changes that I'm seeing right now is that it was never really broadcast mechanism, but I think you could use it to broadcast messages. You could use it to promote, solely to promote things. But right now, no, you cannot do that. That's not going to cut through any of the clutter. People are using it to explore things that they care about and find out about causes and influencers and celebrities and brands. And they're using it for their own purposes. They're using it to help themselves to find things that they're interested in and to express themselves. So if nonprofits continue to use it in this broadcast sort of billboard way, it's really not going to serve us. We need to adapt some new strategies and think about how can we use it to build thought leadership is a great one. How can we use it to establish credibility? How can we use it to become a go to resource in the community? How can we use it to become an indispensable force for good around the cause that we're working on? So it's gotta be less of our agenda and more about what does our audience want to see.
- [06:23]
Rhea Wong
So, so many things that you said that are so good. I just want to unpack. So, Julia, as you were talking, I remember literally sitting at my boardroom table after the ice bucket chopped and having a boardroom. So why don't we just do a viral video? And I was like, why don't I.
- [06:40]
Julia Campbell
Just win the lottery? Yeah, why don't it be so easy? Why can't I just find a million dollars on the street?
- [06:45]
Rhea Wong
Yeah, why can't I become Beyonce? Like, we might. Why not though? I think a, yes, understanding, like you, you cannot plan virality because if you could, then I wouldn't be sitting at this table with you all. I would be making a bajillion dollars somewhere else. The second thing that I think is really interesting around what you said, many things, but this idea of not using social as a billboard, rather as an engagement tool, as a way to start conversation, as a way to educate, as a way to inspire, as a way to build community. And I feel like a lot of nonprofits because A, they usually don't have a marketing strategy, but B, also feel very pressed for time, keep pushing the social media button like it's a freaking jackpot. Lover, just give me the money. Give me the money. Give me the money. And they're not getting any engagement. They're not building communities. And the third thing I wanted to say, and I'd love for you to talk about this, is like, it can be really hard to be on social for many reasons, which we'll get into. But one of the things I was thinking about is that we're always playing the comparison game, right? We're looking at that nonprofit that does that. Maybe we should do that. And that nonprofit seems like they're making a lot of money doing that, so we should do that. And so how do we get out of the comparison game and stop paying attention to all the shiny objects?
- [07:55]
Julia Campbell
Wow. Okay. So there's a lot to unpack there. So what you said is absolutely true. We are looking at it as something that owes us something, or we're looking at social media as this lever that we can pull and donations or engagement or likes will roll in. And we really have to start being a little more cynical at the end of the day. And I am, like, the least cynical person ever. I am Gen X. But I like to believe in the goodness in all people. But unfortunately, these platforms, they're owned by narcissistic billionaires who answer to their shareholders. They don't even answer to the users. Okay? Their number one piece of their number one priority in their life is their shareholders. Can we make more money for our shareholders? It's not how can we make the user experience better? That's probably number two. And then maybe, like, number 90 million is how can we help nonprofits raise money. It really is not. That's not what the platforms were designed for. And it's not their strength. What their strength is, of course, engaging friends and family, but it's also helping people express themselves, and it's helping people learn new things and maybe get some news, some articles, understand the world around them and connect with other people, people. So they were never meant to be these promotional tools like an email or like our website or like a blog or a billboard is what I always say. It's not. Never was supposed to be this way that we were taught how to use these tools. So pushing that social media button, the time constraints is another whole piece of the puzzle. You really have to look holistically at your time and what it's worth and what these channels might be getting you or not getting you. So you have to evaluate which platforms you should be spending time on and really measuring and analyzing your success. Now, an experiment that I Always talk about, oh, the case study is candid. So they were Guidestar, merged with the foundation center, became candid. They are an academic research institute. They are thought leaders. They don't have clients, they don't have kittens and puppies and children and environment and anything else. They literally are a research facility providing resources for nonprofits. And they're nonprofits themselves. They wanted to use short form video, but like you said, Rhea, they weren't sure. What's the time commitment? How much time is it going to take? We're so strapped for time. So they just did a very small experiment. They said we're going to create. Actually I should have the numbers, but the numbers are on their blog. They wrote a whole blog post about their experiment. They're going to create a certain number of videos in three months. And the caveat is it's not going to take up more than 20% of staff time. So it was a fair. What I would recommend for anyone listening to this thinks they can't do Instagram reels or they can't do YouTube shorts or they can't do things on LinkedIn is to create this very focused experiment. I'm going to post on LinkedIn three times a month for three months and then I'm going to measure and analyze and see what happens. We have to look at it like an experiment. You better believe that. We all know our open rate. We know our donor retention rate. I hope we know our click through rate on our website. There are certain metrics that we have. We know we send a direct mail appeal and it's going to get this many donations and we know it's a success or it can be improved upon. But why don't we do the same with social media and digital marketing? I think we need to be more strategic and prioritize better. And that's how we'll avoid the shiny tool syndrome. Because we might try something and you, you do have to try it for a little while to see if it works. But it's almost like any new diet, like keto or whatever. I have no idea. I don't believe in any of the diets for me but you. But I like to try weightlifting or maybe try spin or try yoga. It's anything else. You really have to give it a try. You can't just say, oh, I did one yoga class and it was a fail. Like you can't just say oh, I posted on LinkedIn for two twice and it didn't work. And I think that's what happens.
- [12:12]
Rhea Wong
So let's talk about because I know we've read this last time we spoke, but I think it's just worth reiterating how do we measure success? Because I think there are vanity metrics, right? Like how many likes do I have, how many followers do I have, how many shares do I have? But is that really the goal of it? Because I think it was you, I know it was you who said the goal of social media is to encourage people to take an off platform action, whether that means volunteer, sign a petition, sign up for your email list, whatever it is. And so how should we be thinking about measuring whether or not our social media usage was a success or not a success?
- [12:48]
Julia Campbell
That's such a great question. There are several ways to look at this. One is really going back to your goals and what you're trying to accomplish. And honestly, you might have different goals for different times of year and you might have different goals for different platforms and you might have different goals for different campaigns that you're running. But I really believe that, especially right now in the climate that we're in, where social and political issues and cause areas are being demoted in the algorithm, where it's getting increasingly more difficult to get reach and engagement if you're not paying for it, I think we need to be encouraging people to take an action with us off platform, like you said. So I talk a lot about encouraging people to sign up for your email list and what specific strategies. You can't just say sign up for our email list. How do you make it more enticing? What can you offer on your email list that might be a little more enticing? Or signing up for an advocacy action, downloading a white paper on your website, taking a volunteer action, signing up for text alerts. I think that there are, there's a myriad of ways that we can get people off social media because we can't take them with us. I think of Twitter when Elon Musk purchased Twitter and I stayed on for a year and then it became X and then I had to leave. I had 19,000 followers. Okay, first of all, you can't take those followers with you. I had such a, built such a community there. But what made me understand was that's not my community. I don't own that community. I own my email list. Of course, if you build your email list ethically and correctly and you're not purchasing email lists and you're not signing people if they don't want to be signed up. But the other thing I would say is, and it goes to something that you spoke to. I didn't address the competition question. You're not for everybody. Everyone listening to this needs to understand that you, your message is really for a very specific group of people. It's not for the masses. Because nothing is for the masses other than maybe Taylor Swift, I don't know. There's really nothing that everybody absolutely without fail likes.
- [14:59]
Rhea Wong
Okay.
- [15:00]
Julia Campbell
And if it is, it's like vanilla ice cream, and you don't want to be vanilla ice cream. So how can you use these tools to differentiate yourself and stand out? What is your unique stance on thing? What's your unique solution? Who's your founder? Who's your executive director? Who's your development director? What do they stand for? What do you stand for? What are you trying to put out in the world? That's what's really going to help differentiate you. And in terms of success, I would measure how many people are going to your website from social media, how many conversions you're getting, how many people are signing up for email. Sure. If you are an organization like Invisible People, they're media organization. They want to raise awareness around people experiencing homelessness. A metric for them is YouTube views and how long a video was watched on YouTube and number of comments on YouTube. Because that is their goal, that is their mission, that is the vision that they have. They want to change the conversation around this particular issue. But if you are an organization, you're really just looking, just drive your membership, drive donations, be looking at how social media is helping influence that, and always be measuring those numbers and looking at the bigger picture of how it fits into all of the other marketing and fundraising you're doing.
- [16:19]
Rhea Wong
Yeah, and I just want to double click on being focused because you can very easily get into buying all the shiny new tools like I got into buying. I must need all of these different analytics for my LinkedIn because LinkedIn is my major platform. And the other thing is, I wanted to underscore here for everybody. You need to be on all the.
- [16:39]
Julia Campbell
Things I know you shouldn't be. You shouldn't be.
- [16:43]
Rhea Wong
I'm not on, certainly not on X. I very minimally am on Instagram. I have a Facebook page, but I don't really do much with it other than to run ads. And then I'm on LinkedIn and that's it. LinkedIn, my podcast and my newsletter, those are like my three channels that if you want to know what's up with me, find me there.
- [17:01]
Julia Campbell
That's a great, that's really a great explanation. And for me, I Take a lot of qualitative evidence and not necessarily quantitative. So people will message me and say, oh, I saw your LinkedIn post. Or I had someone, I did a speaking engagement in Wisconsin and someone came up to me and she said, I saw your LinkedIn post about overhead and the overhead myth and I thought it was fantastic and we need more people speaking up about it in our sector. I take all of that into account because it's so hard sometimes to know if people are paying attention. But emails that I get and calls that I get and talking to people at conferences, I know that I'm reaching people. And it's not necessarily something that's going to go viral. But that's not like you said, the point of it, it's not really the point of what I'm doing, but that building that trust and credibility, that's a huge goal for me. And when I get that feedback, even if it's not 300 people telling me, if it's 30 people telling me, to me, that's a win. So we have to determine what our success, what success looks like for us and measure it against what we're trying to achieve long term.
- [18:12]
Rhea Wong
And can I just say, I think especially with LinkedIn, again, I'm not as conversant with the other platforms, but I think there are a ton of lurkers out there.
- [18:18]
Julia Campbell
Yes, Yes.
- [18:20]
Rhea Wong
I meet people all the time. We're like, oh, I see all your stuff on LinkedIn. I'm like, really? Because you've never commented.
- [18:25]
Julia Campbell
Never commented. Commented.
- [18:27]
Rhea Wong
I don't know who you are. I know and cool that you're reading my stuff, but I have no feedback loop. I have no idea that you're doing that.
- [18:34]
Julia Campbell
Yes.
- [18:34]
Rhea Wong
If you like something like it, share it, comment. So that's the thing, it makes so.
- [18:40]
Julia Campbell
Much difference, it really does to the algorithm and then to getting it exposed to newer audiences. It really does help. I know there are so many lurkers because they think, I think the majority of people look at social media. It's for them, it's for their enjoyment, their entertainment, their information. It's not, they're not seeing it in that two way street. There are a lot of lurkers out there. We love you lurkers. We just wish you would talk to us more.
- [19:06]
Rhea Wong
Yeah. Otherwise it just looks like us throwing, you know, tennis balls into a vacuum cleaner. Let's talk about why social media feels so awful right now. This is a good transition because I just, I feel like, I don't know, I would say maybe in like the Last year or so, I just have found it to be so draining and so exhausting, and I don't know why. I'm also thinking about the move from the attention economy to the intimacy economy. Like, it just. Every time I go on social, like, everyone's just, like, screaming for attention, and I'm saying I can't. So why does it feel so awful? And is it. Is it just I'm more sensitive? In the last year or something actually changed. In the last year, the algorithms have.
- [19:44]
Julia Campbell
Dramatically changed, at least from meta, and they've publicly said it, or I don't know if it was publicly disclosed, but some memo got leaked that the algorithms have completely changed and they're focused on what's getting the most engagement and the most conversation. And what's getting the most engagement and the most conversation are things that make people angry. That's just always it. Sometimes there'll be a great puppy video. People will post, oh, that's cute, or something like that. But it's going to be that sort of provocative factor of what's getting people riled up. And I think that's why we're seeing so much more of it. The other thing I've been seeing is just this. I just think. I don't know if it's human behavior. I don't know if it's the way we're interacting with each other, but I would post something. So I used to post a lot of political stuff on Facebook. And then I realized I'm not going to change anybody's mind. I already have my friends who believe what I believe, and I have people that don't believe what I believe. And I'm really not, like, changing anyone's mind with this content that I'm posting. I'm either posting into the void or the bubble, or I just injured people for no reason. Because if you post on, like, Facebook, LinkedIn's a little bit different, though. LinkedIn is a little bit more happy or professional. But if you post on X or Twitter, you post on Instagram, you post on Facebook, you say, I like oranges, people are always going to come after you with, like, why do you hate apples? And I don't. I can't speak to, like, why that's happening, but I think it's because the algorithm responds to that quick burst of engagement. And it's all generated by AI. Like, the content moderation on these sites is next to none. There are no humans moderating this content. X I know fired almost all of their content moderators. I'm not sure. About Meta, LinkedIn is a little bit better from what I can see. It's just a different kind of platform. And then of course, YouTube is really a search engine. I don't really see YouTube as like a social media site. TikTok. Of course, the algorithm is designed so you see new things. You constantly see new things, which I like in some ways because you get exposed to a lot of different voices and brands and people and influencers. But to try to get found when you're not being as provocative or you're not topical and timely, I think that's the really big challenge. But as to why social media, it's just. It's because I think it's becoming that the lowest common denominator kind of stuff is just floating up to the top. With X, we know why it's terrible. At least with X we can. Elon Musk purchased it, has absolutely no morals or scruples, fired all the content moderators and basically said it's a free for all and you can do what you want. So that's really why X is now like pretty unsafe for a lot of people. With Meta, it's just a lot of investment in AI, I think a lot of investment in this metaverse and they're cutting down the investments that they had made in the newsfeed and in groups and in other things. And I know that Meta has fired and let go almost their entire social impact team. They're just not making an investment in how can we make the platform better. It's just become this race to the bottom or race to the top to see how much money you can make. Yeah, I know it seems pretty dark on a lot of places, so. Happy places. Instagram to me is a happy place. But I think I've curated my feed.
- [23:14]
Rhea Wong
Yeah, that's right. You've like unfollowed.
- [23:15]
Julia Campbell
Oh, I literally. It's all Olympics right now and I hope it will be Olympics for the next six months. I don't care if the Olympics are over, because I think I've just. It's what I like and so I like it, I comment and I share it. And Instagram has started to see. Okay, she doesn't like the dark. Not that all the political stuff, but the darkness has. Has left my feed. So I've been having a lot of fun on Instagram lately, but changes every six months, everything changes.
- [23:41]
Rhea Wong
You've eradicated the Voldemort from your feed. Let me ask. I want to ask a brief question about AI. I don't want to go Too far down the rabbit hole because we'll be there forever. But I definitely want to talk about social media and end of your giving because by the time this episode post, we will be looking at, we'll be in Q4, what time of year for giving. So make sure we'll get to that. But before we get to that, let's talk about the use of AI and social media content creation. Because I just feel like helps us just to do crappy things faster. And I'm just wondering from your perspective, like, are you just seeing more garbage produced at higher scale? Like, how is AI just making this whole stew worse?
- [24:26]
Julia Campbell
More garbage at larger scale. So Nathan Chappelle was speaking at, I want to say, Planet Philanthropy, and He said by 2025, almost 90% of the content on the Internet is going to be generated by AI. And I thought, oh my gosh, I'm just leaving. I want to leave. Oh my God, I don't know where I'm going, but I want to leave. The only way that we're going to stand out, and this is what I tell my clients, is to put our fingerprints on everything. So you can write a webinar description with ChatGPT, that's fine, it's a webinar description, whatever. But if you're going to write a LinkedIn post, if you're going to write a Facebook post, if you're going to write an email, it's one thing to draft it using AI tools or do research or spell check or use grammar tools. It's another thing to have the AI completely right in your voice. Because the really only way we're going to stand out at this point, reach our followers and our fans and the people that care about what we do, is to have that distinct personality and authenticity and stamp on things. For me, what I'm telling my clients is you're using these tools to save time to do research to. You could do a great research project and put in all your subject lines, your email subject lines from the last year and all of your data and open rates and figure out which subject line works best. That's a great use of AI, I think. Or say, okay, here's 50 annual reports, synthesize it and pull out the 10 bullet points and then write an email around it. But if we are using it in the way that I see it being used constantly to just write stuff for us, then everything's going to sound the same. Everything is starting to sound the same. And you can tell when things are written. With ChatGPT, I can tell in like an actual heartbeat when things are written with it or someone's not even bothered to personalize it or change it. So the other piece of this that I would say that relates to social media is the storytelling. AI doesn't know your stories. I can never understand what goes on on the ground in your organization, in the trenches, every day, in your programs, what you're experiencing. So sharing genuine stories, whether it's your story, your donor story, your volunteer story, your client's story, sharing stories is the way that we're going to start really standing out because every email appeal is going to start to sound alike, every LinkedIn post, every Facebook post, all of it's going to really start looking generic. But if we put our authentic stamp on things and if we're not afraid to get a little bit vulnerable, because AI doesn't, it's not vulnerable. It's not going to tell you its own personal experience of what is experienced, life experience. Those are the things like what makes us human. And that's what's really going to translate well on social media because there is going to be so much of this generic just whatever, templated crap, basically. So we need to focus on what makes us human and then insert that in our content as much as possible.
- [27:32]
Rhea Wong
It's funny that you say that. Not that I'm gonna, I'm gonna throw my nephew under the bus. I'm reading his college application essays and I can tell 70% of it was written by ChatGPT. And I'm like, if I can tell, I can assure you the college admissions officers will also be able to tell.
- [27:49]
Julia Campbell
Yeah, that's the thing is you put that essay in. What I would do is write an essay or write some bullet points. I put it in ChatGPT and say, hey, what are some, what are some questions you would have for me as a college admissions officer based on this draft? And then pull out the questions and then be like, okay, what are places I can go deeper? What are some anecdotes I could add in? That's really how I like to use the tools, is more like, make me think in a different way and ask me questions based on your. Based on the entire Internet. What are some of the most popular college admission questions being asked right now and how could I respond to those? So I completely understand what you're saying. Like a 15 year old, like, I, I get it. I think the danger is everything becoming homogenized. But then the people that are going to stand out are the people that will insert that humanity and that authenticity into the. Into their work.
- [28:46]
Rhea Wong
As you were saying, authenticity. I was just thinking about the Australian breakdancer.
- [28:50]
Julia Campbell
Oh, my God. Talk about the most authentic person ever. I love her. Oh, my God, I love her so much.
- [28:56]
Rhea Wong
Here's the thing about her. I was like, okay, so she lost the Olympics, but she won social media.
- [29:01]
Julia Campbell
Oh, she's just.
- [29:02]
Rhea Wong
She won the Internet, so who really does.
- [29:03]
Julia Campbell
She doesn't care. And doing her thing. She has a PhD in breakdancing. She's amazing. I couldn't love that more because it really does. Totally. That's what's going to break the Internet.
- [29:15]
Rhea Wong
Yeah.
- [29:16]
Julia Campbell
You could have an AI video of a white woman break dancing, and it would not be as interesting as a real person doing that. Real people doing amazing, vulnerable things. That's always going to beat everything.
- [29:27]
Rhea Wong
Well, I've also really worked that kangaroo move into my repertoire, so watch out, world.
- [29:33]
Julia Campbell
Did you see Rachel Dratch doing it on Jimmy Fallon?
- [29:36]
Rhea Wong
No, but I'm gonna look it up.
- [29:38]
Julia Campbell
Rachel Dratch, Jimmy Fallon, Australian breakdancer. It's amazing. It's memes. If you become a meme, then you know you're successful.
- [29:44]
Rhea Wong
That's it. You have won the Internet. Good job. Okay, let's talk about end of year, because I know people are out their minds right now trying to raise money. How should we be thinking about social media vis a vis our end of year campaign in a way that also will not make us totally crazy?
- [30:03]
Julia Campbell
I really believe you should not go silent on your donors leading up to year end. So what I see a lot of the time, I see a lot of my clients thinking, oh, we're going to be doing giving Tuesday. We're going to be doing year end, so we should probably be quiet right now. No, that's not how social works. You can't. It's also, it's. I keep comparing it to dieting and exercise, but it's literally not a fast. You can't fast and then all of a sudden get healthy again. You really have to be putting in the time, putting in the miles, putting in the minutes. So have a strategy right now for how you're showcasing both the need, but also maybe your accomplishments. Where I also think people get wrong on social media year end is they just showcase the accomplishments. They're like, we did awesome stuff this year. Here's all the great stuff we did. But they don't adequately highlight the fact that they're still in need. There is a need. We could even do more. We could serve more kids. We could save More cats, we could save more wetlands. We could do more if we had your support. So constantly being in people's minds, placing that seed where they're thinking, okay, this group is great and they have fantastic results and we can see the stories that they're showcasing. Maybe doing a little bit more video right now, because video is going to help you off to the top of the feedback. What I would. What I always recommend doing is talking a lot about what's going on right now. So there's so much focus on creating this evergreen content that could be used forever. What's going to really work and grab attention is, hey, I'm working in human trafficking. This is what we are seeing and this is what's going on. And this is the five things you need to know in the next month. And here's what we're going to do. If you donate five, five dollars a month, here's what we can accomplish. So just being honest, like talking to people like they're people, rather, I talk a lot of creating content and content creation, that's just a buzzword for let's just all be real on the Internet. Let's just talk to people and explain we've done great things this year. Guess what else we can do? Here's what we're going to do. Here's our vision for 2025 and inviting people to be partners rather than just talking to them like their ATM transaction.
- [32:25]
Rhea Wong
Yep. Well, and I think the other piece about video that I want to underscore here too is don't be afraid of video. I think people think that it has to be like, super professional. And the lighting, yes, have nice lighting. But I think people are really responding to authenticity on the Internet. Like, we all have phones in our pockets. Shoot a little video with your face. Like people would walk your dog.
- [32:45]
Julia Campbell
I'm telling you, walk your dog and take a video and talk about the problem and then introduce your dog. That's going to go as viral as it can go. Those are the most popular videos our clients do the executive director in their backyard. If you're comfortable showing your family, that's one thing you should be comfortable showing your dog or your cat or your ferret. I had one executive director share their ferrets and they were just like hanging out with their. And they were like, this is what's going on. We'd love for you to join us. And it's just so real. But just the video makes it human for people and they understand that there are people working at the organization and they understand that there are real issues being solved by real people. So I agree with you. I think video just in your. Yeah, just take a short 10, 15, 30 second video with your phone. There's all sorts of editing software you can use. Of course, if you want to edit it. There's Cap Cut, there's Animoto, there's everything on your phone. But I always find my best reels are just me walking, maybe on the beach or walking and with the captions on. And that tends to work really well. Like it doesn't. Like you said, you don't need to overthink it or pay a lot of money for it.
- [33:58]
Rhea Wong
Yeah, yeah. And I think frequency trumps depth, right? Like people are looking for quick bites of things that they can consume. Not like your 50 page annual report.
- [34:09]
Julia Campbell
I think it depends on social media. Certainly you can go longer on YouTube though YouTube is designed for longer videos. You can go longer on your website and you can go longer maybe in an email newsletter. Like it depends on your audience. But you're right on Reels or TikTok or something like that. It's more. Here's one bite sized piece of information that you can use. And sure, if you want to dive deeper, our website is here. We have all the stuff on our website. We have all this stuff on our, in our research. But social media is really that place for people that don't know you, that don't maybe trust you or maybe know a little bit about what you do but want to want to do more.
- [34:49]
Rhea Wong
Well, and the other thing I just want to say here too, Julie, is also don't be afraid to lean into things like humor because like we, we go to social for entertainment. Right. Like on my TikTok feed it's like comedians and I recently, I think it's old, but I just saw it was this like spoof video, Africans for Norway. And it's about like, it's called Radiade and they're like it's very cold in Norway so we're going to send them our radiators. And I remember that because it made me laugh. And so I think we also have to not be afraid to be a little light about it.
- [35:24]
Julia Campbell
Like my daughter's camp, which is a nonprofit, did a whole thing with Brat, the whole thing with Charli xcx, it's a meme right now. If you don't know it, just Google Brat Summer and you will immediately find it. But it's like a font, it's like a color.
- [35:39]
Rhea Wong
Read the article about how they got to that color. It's fascinating.
- [35:43]
Julia Campbell
No. Okay, so if we're talking about brat, the whole thing is I'm so Julia, Right? She sings a whole song about how she's so Julia. So everyone's been sending that to me. I actually have the shirt in lime green that says I'm so Julia, but.
- [35:55]
Rhea Wong
I should have worn this.
- [35:56]
Julia Campbell
No, I don't know the color.
- [35:58]
Rhea Wong
Yeah, no. It's funny. If you go to the New York Times, it's like a whole piece with the designer because he's like, if you look at it, it looks like it's just done. Some fifth grader did it. But actually there's a whole process behind it. Like multiple drafts of the exact color grade. Anyways. Fast.
- [36:13]
Julia Campbell
Amazing. Yeah. So I think it's like that we. It's a flash in the pan. I saw some libraries doing it. Obviously, the Kamala Harris campaign did it. Like, adopting things that are like that. Having that kind of tongue in cheek sense of humor. Like, this is cheeky. This is funny. Not everybody's gonna know. Like, my mom is not gonna know what that means. It's fine. Maybe she does. I don't know. But I think being willing to take risks, like you just said, being willing to be a little bit vulnerable, it's not gonna offend people. Right. It's just gonna be something that someone might notice and think is fun. And then also it's gonna play that part of humanizing and making you more relevant. And like you said, we go to social media for entertainment. We really do. We go for news and articles, too. I go a lot of the time. News. That's where nonprofits can fit into.
- [37:04]
Rhea Wong
Yeah. I think what I've seen is that non profits tend to lean very heavily on the serious stuff, because I think that the work is serious. Right. Like, we are saving whales and cats and kids and wetlands and whatever, but we don't have to take ourselves so seriously.
- [37:19]
Julia Campbell
Yes, exactly. The cause is serious, but we, ourselves, as people, we do not have to take so seriously.
- [37:25]
Rhea Wong
So, Julia, as we wrap up, I know you have an exciting thing in the works. Tell us a little bit about that and how folks can learn more about that.
- [37:33]
Julia Campbell
Yeah, so I'm partnering with my friends at Neon1. We're holding the Nonprofit Social Media Summit fifth year in a row, all virtual and completely free. So if you go to nonprofitsocialmediasummit.com you can sign up, find all the speakers and all the sessions. And my goal with this summit, especially this year. And actually, Ri, you've given me a lot of things to think about. But this year I want to radiate positivity. I want to figure out what are the positive aspects of social media that we can elevate and amplify and how can we incorporate that into the work that we're doing. So for me, it's really demystifying social, making it accessible, giving you actionable tips and tricks that you can take. And it's November 13th and 14th, so perfect for giving Tuesday and year end campaigns post election hangovers, which I know I was talking to NI on one and I said, I'll either be in my bed or I'll be popping champagne. I'll be doing from my, my hospital room or I will be popping champagne.
- [38:37]
Rhea Wong
Right. I'm either gonna be like, living my best life or making plans to leave the country.
- [38:43]
Julia Campbell
So either one, my Toronto relatives. So we'll see. And we're hoping that it's the popping champagne.
- [38:49]
Rhea Wong
I think it would be interesting. So here's an idea for you, Julia. Take it for what you will. Yes. I think it'd be really interesting as part of the summit to deconstruct the social media strategies of both campaigns and what worked and what didn't and why.
- [39:03]
Julia Campbell
That's really interesting.
- [39:05]
Rhea Wong
Isn't that fascinating? I. I would tune in for that. Like, help me break it down. I need to understand because even with things I don't necessarily agree with, like, you can argue that they're marketing going on.
- [39:16]
Julia Campbell
Exactly. On both sides. I agree with you. I think that's really interesting. I want to think about that. Because what I want to think about is if there's not time to do that at the summit, I want to do that podcast for sure.
- [39:26]
Rhea Wong
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [39:27]
Julia Campbell
I think that's so interesting.
- [39:29]
Rhea Wong
It's super interesting from like a social media and like, messaging and marketing perspective and like how they're thinking about who they're talking to, how they're talking to them, what action they're trying to convince them, how they're building. Because right now it's all identity politics. Right. Like the Trump campaign in particular. It's not policy based other than like being a terrible person. It's about, like, how do I capitalize people angry. Yeah. This sense of, like, injustice and identity that I have as being like, downtrodden in some way. And whether it's right or wrong, it's, like clearly very effective. So anyway, it'd be interesting to get. Yeah.
- [40:03]
Julia Campbell
Any other thing I want to say is that the second Kamala announced that she was running, I was getting instagram ads. Like the actual. I was reading about it and then went to Instagram and was getting an ad. Someone knows something. And then the Tim Walls, when she announced that he was going to be her running mate, also getting ads. I feel like it was very spot on and very timely. Some people might think that's very like Big Brother and they might get scared of it. I looked at it from a digital marketing perspective and I was like, I'm thinking about this, I'm googling articles about this and I'm being served ads about it. That is brilliant strategy. So, yeah, how did that happen? How to break it down? Like, how did both pains figure out when to run ads? And that is really smart.
- [40:43]
Rhea Wong
Fascinating. All right, friend, I could talk to you for hours, but we have to go. So I don't know when I'll see you in person again, but I will certainly sign up for the summit and I will see you there. And if I can be of any help, please let me know.
- [40:56]
Julia Campbell
Thank you so much. Always a pleasure, Rhea. This is great.
- [40:59]
Rhea Wong
Same here, my friend. And I think I'm supposed to be on your pod at some point.
- [41:03]
Julia Campbell
Yes, I think we have that scheduled.
- [41:05]
Rhea Wong
Okay, fantastic.
- [41:06]
Julia Campbell
For future months. Yeah. Stay tuned, everyone. Then I'll be grilling Ria on all things fundraising and why we're disrupted. Disrupting Fundraising, which was your last latest newsletter, which I loved.
- [41:17]
Rhea Wong
The thing is, I feel like we're not disrupting. If anything, we're going back to the original ways of funding. This is a community based, like, all hands on deck, helping your neighbor relational fundraising model that I think we've forgotten in this high scale, high pressure sales tactic way that like, feels really gross and transactional. And now I'm like, you know, we're just getting back to the basics of like, how can we be friends?
- [41:41]
Julia Campbell
Absolutely. I love that. I agree with it totally.
- [41:44]
Rhea Wong
So everything old is new again. It's a old wine, new bottles. Anyway.
- [41:49]
Julia Campbell
I don't know, but I like the wine. And out.
- [41:51]
Rhea Wong
I'm gonna pour it out for everybody. All right, friends, good to see you. Enjoy the rest of your day. Thanks, bye.
- [41:57]
Ria Wong
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- [42:28]
Rhea Wong
So if you like big asks and.
- [42:30]
Ria Wong
You cannot lie, I'll see you in the program.