← Nonprofit Lowdown
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- [00:00]
A
Hey. Hey, Sam, quick question. Have you marked December 3rd on your calendar? That's right. Giving Tuesday, the world's biggest day of generosity, is right around the corner, and it's time for us nonprofits to shine. Here's the deal. Giving Tuesday isn't just a day. It's the day to rally your community, inspire your donors, and, yeah, raise that money, honey. And guess what? The fine folks at GivingTuesday are actually sponsoring this podcast episode, which means they've got your back with all kinds of resources to help you crush it. Head over to givingtuesday.org where they have free templates, tools, and tips to get you ready. Whether you're looking to plan that perfect campaign or just need a little extra pep in your step, they've got everything you need to make this Giving Tuesday your best yet. So hit up givingtuesday.org to get ready for December 3rd, and let's make some magic happen. Welcome to nonprofit Lowdown. I'm your host, Rhea Wong. Hey, podcast listeners, Rhea Wong with you once again with nonprofit Lowdown. Today I am speaking with my friend Emily Rasmussen, founder and CEO of Grapevine. And today we're talking about giving circles and the future of philanthropy. Emily, welcome to the show.
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B
Thank you so much, Freya. It's great to be here.
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A
First question, did I say your last name correctly?
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B
Close. Close. It's Rasmussen.
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A
Rasmussen.
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B
Yeah.
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A
There you go. Sorry for send people. Okay, before we jump into all the things, tell us a little bit about Grapevine and your path, because I was looking and you don't have a traditional nonprofit philanthropy.
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B
Been a little winding. That's. That's for sure. Sure.
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A
Yeah.
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B
The background from or for Grapevine, and really my background getting to Grapevine has been varied, but there is a theme there. So I was actually a professional ballet dancer for a period of time. That was my first career and did that for several years. Was motiv. After 9, 11 and after an injury in dance to pursue international relations and economic development. And really pursued that through what I initially thought would be a career focused on diplomacy working at the UN and was fortunate to be able to go and do an internship at the UN when I was in undergrad. Had a great experience, learned a lot, and was fortunate to be there during the time when microfinance was really all around and was really celebrated as a great model for economic development. And that was my initial inspiration to get into this kind of community driven movement of trying to really move hands into or move money, excuse me, into the hands of community Members, and that being a great form of. Of impact and local development. So that's what got me into that path. I graduated, ended up getting a job opportunity in India to help build a microfinance program there, and spent some time there a couple years doing that work. And around that time, Kiva started taking off. Kickstarter was launching. Right. So it was the early days of the crowdfunding movement, and that was really exciting to me, this idea that we could, through technology, perhaps better unlock funding from communities around the world, for communities around the world. And that prompted me to explore that sector. I had no tech background, but what I decided to do is I went to business school and was able to do some consulting with Kickstarter, launched a crowdfunding platform, explored how we could go beyond that transactional crowdfunding campaign to create something more recurring, more community based. Fast forward a few years after business school, where I was in the nonprofit sector and just engaging more with donors and working more with nonprofits, this idea for Grapevine started to really take shape. And so all of that to say that Grapevine actually was a. An alternative to the crowdfunding model, as opposed to initially a concept specifically for giving circles. But what happened along the way is a few giving circles discovered us and reached out. And so that's where we realized, wow, of course we're not building something new. This is something that communities have been doing for decades, and no one has built something specific to their needs to really help them do it. So what a perfect opportunity for us to partner. And that's how we ended up building Grapevine and launching it about four and a half years ago now, in March of 2020.
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A
Exciting. So for those of us who are not familiar, can you explain what giving circles are?
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B
Sure, yes. It's as simple as it sounds. It's about a group of people that come together to connect with each other, to pull their donations, and to collaborate to make a larger collective gift as a group. So pretty simple concept, but pretty powerful in action when you think about engaging everyday donors in this model to give a larger collective gift and through a recurring practice, so that they're continuing to connect and build community and also impact together over time.
- [05:02]
A
You said something in our last conversation that I've really still been mulling over, which is this, that we talk about our community of donors, but what we really mean by that is just a list of names and that we're actually not, generally speaking, very good about building community among our donors with each other. So can you talk a little bit about what have you seen in the field that's been really powerful?
- [05:26]
B
Absolutely. I think this is a, a common mistake that nonprofits make. And it's really that idea that actually a community, a community by nature of a community is not about you. Right. It's not about you managing a list. It's not even about you being the person sitting across the table from every one of these donors for a coffee chat. It's about enabling those donors to connect with each other. And I think as a nonprofit, if you're thinking about creating community within your donors, there's a sort of creating of the space and the infrastructure in a way for them to connect with each other. And that's more your role than necessarily you being the one building relationships. I think of relationships as being one to one relationship building, but community building is more of a one to many community building model where you can facilitate the connections between others. And I do think that there are clearly some challenges right now in the nonprofit fundraising space. And I think there's a lot of conversation around engaging donors in order to retain donors because retention rates are down. And this is a challenge for most nonprofits. And I just think if as a non profit, absolutely, relationship building is key. And there's a lot of talk around relational fundraising. Right. And how do we build connection and engage with those donors on that and build that relationship in a one to one way. But I think we can go beyond that and we can scale that more effectively by thinking about how can we also leverage this one to many community building model. And that really is about not just you being on the front lines, but actually you helping to create that space, set some of the community guidelines and create some of those enabling factors so that those community members can do some of that relationship building with each other, not just with you. Yeah.
- [07:20]
A
The word that's coming to me right now is leveraged model. Because I think most nonprofits out here are understaffed. They have one maybe frontline fundraiser, or maybe they have an ED who also doubles as a frontline fundraiser. And so the idea of community members supporting each other and not being dependent on that one staff member feels like a really powerful model that folks can start to think about how to utilize. And the irony is, I think so many of us are so good at creating community for our beneficiaries and not that great at creating community for our donors.
- [07:55]
B
Absolutely. And it's such a great point because this is work you already know. Right. A lot of nonprofits already know this. And think about it in that, that context. I think a lot of people in the nonprofit space are natural community builders. But for whatever reason, when it comes to the donor segment of your community, potential community, we have a different lens. And part of that, for whatever reason, you have many more thoughts on this and expertise around this than I do. But I think a lot of pressure in the nonprofit space is identifying and cultivating strong relationships with high potential major gift donors. And so there's an overemphasis on that and then I think an underemphasis on leveraging that Community Model 1 to enable you to expand and diversify your donor base to be able to include a broader range of donors at a broader range of economic levels. Right. That still gives them a sense of connection and community and doesn't make them feel like just a name on a list that gets emailed once or twice a year with another ask. So there's that element. But also, if you think about it, you can use this community experience as a complement to that one to one relationship building for those major gift donors. And some of the most successful giving circles I've seen that are leveraging this model of community are thinking about it in that way where they're actually bringing together a broad range of donor types, of donor capacities, of all of that into a space, because we all are aligned around the shared interest in this cause. We're all in this together, whether you're giving $10 a month or $100,000 a year. And both sides of the spectrum, the higher contributors and the more everyday donors value that and are really appreciating that. So I think it can complement that major gift cultivation strategy as well.
- [09:45]
A
Yeah. When we first spoke, you used the word everyday philanthropist, which I really enjoy, because as I think about it, and I've talked about this before, communities of col been engaging in philanthropy forever. We just didn't call it philanthropy. We called it helping out our family. We called it sending money back home. We called it taking care of our cousin. And so I think this concept helps to. I think you said democratize philanthropy, because I think a lot of us think philanthropy capital P Like some guy behind a big desk and it's like, very imposing. As opposed to being like neighbors helping out neighbors.
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B
Absolutely. Yeah. And there's. If you go back to the definition of philanthropy and the roots, it's. I'll paraphrase here, but love of humanity or love of humankind. Right. It's really. It's not just about money. It's about all the things that you contribute. And I think this movement really does engage everyday people to contribute in the ways that they can. And maybe that's, like I said, $10 a month. But it could also be being an advocate for those nonprofits, being a voice to help raise awareness to them and bring others in to support them. There's something called the five T's of philanthropy, and we feel like those are very strong in the giving circle model. Because when you come together as a community to support a nonprofit, yes, you're starting with possibly a collective gift of 5 or 10,000 or $50,000 from your giving circle. But now you're also connected to that nonprofit, and now you can volunteer with them. You can be an ambassador to help raise awareness about them. Maybe you go on to be a board member in the future. There are lots of ways that these five T's, which I believe are treasure, which is your donation, but also time, talent, testimony, and ties, all these other ways that we can give to support. And it's just nice that this model really helps, I think, organically surface those opportunities and enable people to contribute in all the ways that they can.
- [11:47]
A
It's interesting as you're talking, because I think we're now seeing other models of philanthropy emerging. Like community centric fundraising comes to mind as one example. I think a lot of us have been trained in the donor centric model. Now there's the call this the giving circle centric model or the community centric model. And I guess I'm curious if you. This is, like you said, it was a complement to major gift donations. And I just wonder. I'm formulating my thought here. So what we've seen is that philanthropic gifts from individuals have declined and been on the decline in the last couple of years. And yet the actual, like, overall amount of money given has more or less remained the same because we have a much smaller donor pool giving 90% of the money. So where might giving circles fit in vis a vis this larger trend?
- [12:41]
B
It's a great question. And I know there are different perspectives on this trend as far as whether or not people really are giving less or they're just giving in different ways that aren't directly to nonprofits. Right. So maybe they're giving directly to people or to crowdfunding campaigns. Some of this kind of ties into what you were talking about earlier. Right. What do we consider philanthropy and how do we measure it? So whether or not you think that people are becoming less generous and giving less, that's maybe one topic. But certainly people are giving less to 501c3 Nonprofit organizations in the way that you mentioned, and I think, I believe that this model is actually a very powerful way to help counteract that and to address it. And the reason for that is because one, I think that it creates an on ramp to philanthropy in a really welcoming way for a lot of people, right? If you ask a group of people, do they consider themselves philanthropists and a group of everyday people, right. A lot of them are going to say no. They have that image of the philanthropist like you talked about the person on the COVID of Fortune magazine making that massive gift. But. But actually, if you invite them into a community to connect with others like them in their community who also care about this area, or who also care about healthy oceans or early childhood education or local artists, whatever it is, people really embrace that opportunity to connect with others who also care about and that opportunity to learn about how they can actually support that work. And what I think this model does is it reframes the ask in a way that resonates with people. And I think that's a big part of it. We talk a lot in the nonprofit space. We have a marketing problem, right? And there are lots of marketing problems. Whether it's like we call ourselves nonprofit, that's not, it's not a great starting point. What does that mean anyway? But I think this is another one. It's how do we frame what the opportunity is for you to be involved? And I think this just is a really nice way of doing that. And what we're seeing is that now with this latest report that came out on giving circles earlier this year, giving circles are seen as the fastest growing form of philanthropy. So there's something here, right? There's some magic here for us to learn from. And when we ask people why they join these groups, 80 plus percent of them talk about joining to connect with other like minded people. And so there is this sense that maybe they didn't feel like they were a philanthropist before and the other channels didn't give them that opportunity. And maybe they didn't fit the high net worth donor model to where they, a nonprofit leader was able to reach out and cultivate a one to one relationship with them. But in this model, they're getting that experience. And so I think what we're doing with giving circles is expanding the pie in terms of actually bringing in more donors and a broader diversity of donors into this movement. But I also think that it might be expanding the opportunities that we have with donors through the process. And whether that's you're learning more about these high potential major gift donors. And you're able to then cultivate that relationship and that partnership over time more effectively to where you can make those asks in a more successful way. Down the road, we've started to see that out of giving circles where nonprofits are leading them. So I think there are lots of ways that this can counteract some of those, those challenges that we're seeing. But I guess that would be my, like, the main one is just making it more inclusive and helping people feel like connected and part of it and that the value of it very clear to them.
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A
Yeah. And what's resonating for me too, is the fact that not all of us are out here able to make a five figure gift, but we all generally, I would say, care about things and want to feel connected to something.
- [16:25]
B
I just want to add to that because I think that connection is so important. And what you said there about the five figure gift, when you're an everyday donor and you're giving $100 at a time, it can feel like a drop in the bucket. Right. We talk about that. And if you're actually now part of a $10,000 gift instead of your one off $100 gift, now that's an impact that you can see, and maybe you can actually literally see it and touch it when you go visit the park that you helped to build the thing at. Right. In your local community. So, yes, it's absolutely about the connecting piece. But other side of that same coin is that by doing this as a community, you can see and feel that impact in a way that is really powerful. And especially when we look at the declining trust in nonprofit organizations, that's a part that unless you're at that higher level and you can actually restrict that grant for that specific thing and see that impact, it's harder to give that $100 donor that experience. And so I think this can help fill that gap.
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A
Yeah, that's such a good point. And I also think that there's something here too, about really capturing our younger donors, because we know Millennials and Gen Z more than anything are they tend to donate to causes, not necessarily to organizations. They tend to be a little bit more ephemeral in their giving, and they tend to want, want to be more involved than your donor who like, writes the check and that's what they want versus the younger donor who I think wants to volunteer, wants to see the thing, wants to see the impact numbers and so the ways in which the giving circle can be helpful there.
- [17:56]
B
Absolutely. And I think that's a really inspiring, I would say sub movement within the broader movement that we're seeing often started frankly by children of people who are in giving circles. We just did a great little piece recently on a giving circle in New York started By Some women impact 100 New York City and their children watched them do this and set up this giving circle and said I think we could do that. And now there's impact New York City or impact 100 New York City next gen. And they're doing this with all of their high school friends and they just moved $25,000 as a group of high schoolers. They just hit that milestone. We're definitely seeing that resonating with the next gen and they're adopting but also adapting the model to fit them. We see a lot more co ed groups, for example in the next gen community versus more gender specific groups and the adult community and the movement. So interesting things like that. We'll continue to see them, I'm sure morph the model to fit what they're looking for.
- [18:53]
A
I have more of a philosophical question than I want to get to nuts and bolts, but philosophical question is impulse to join a giving circle is to be among like minded individuals. Does that exacerbate the existing divisions in the country or are we, do we help knit the social fabric?
- [19:10]
B
I love this question and it is a tough question because yes, like minded people love that idea of coming together with like minded. But then what does that mean? And then who isn't like minded? I want to say that what I have seen is that it does not exacerbate difference but actually provides people a space to do to build meaningful connections with others that align around a particular thing. Right? Hey, we all care about healthy oceans, but we might be very different in other ways, but this is a really powerful, meaningful way for us to come together. Similarly, and maybe possibly at this moment in time, even more powerfully, we see that within our location specific groups. So you have a group of people coming together in a community. I think we can all think about the communities, the towns, the neighborhoods we live in, broad range of perspectives. But if we can come together and identify the areas that we do agree on and actually move resources and make a positive impact and do something really meaningful together that builds so much connection and trust and understanding. I think. And we often hear people in giving circles talk about how they heard different perspectives and how that really made them think about something in a different way and understand something in a different way. I think at its best, giving circles do bring people together across difference and help knit that fabric, strengthen that fabric. Certainly I don't mean to say there aren't differences of opinion. And people get upset when this nonprofit is selected versus that one. Right. And I think that's also just inherent in the model and in collaboration in general. Right. Not everyone gets what they want all the time. But if we can create a space to help facilitate that kind of collaboration and learning and understanding together and ultimately a really positive outcome, I believe that this model is a really powerful way to address some of those.
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A
Emily, the models that I'm familiar with, and maybe there are more that you can elucidate for me are the models I've seen have been independent groups of people who get together and they pool their money and then they decide on a nonprofit once a year, twice a year, what have you to grant to. And then there might be the model of a nonprofit that creates a giving circle on their own, connected to the nonprofit. Are there other models out there?
- [21:29]
B
Yeah. So the first one you described is like very much the grassroots community based, right. A local volunteer starting a group and pulling individuals together. The second one more that nonprofit led model, where an organization is creating one specific to their nonprofit. Some people will call that a different name. Some people might call that a donor circle or a fundraising circle, or just a nonprofit led giving circle. So those are two key ones. We are also seeing another genre, if you will, of corporate foundations coming together or bringing their teams together to create giving circles within their workplace. Right. So whether they are engaging their erg to each come together, that employee resource group model, where you might have the women's erg, the Latino erg, the bipoc or pride erg, all sorts of affinity groups that come together in these, in the workplace, enabling them to create giving circles together as a way to connect more deeply and make an impact externally as well as internally. So we're seeing that and not just based on ergs. We're also seeing companies, corporate foundations, wanting to do a similar thing with their teams, whether it's teams in a functional area, our marketing team, our press team, whatever it is, or within a particular location. A lot of larger organizations especially have many sites where they have team members. And so this is a way to help create community and help those team members come together around their shared interest in that local area, across their different functional areas. So that would be another one. I think there. There are definitely subgroups under these, right. Are we coming together to give back to our local area or to a particular cause or community? So definitely the structure can Morph even within each of these different areas. But I think those are, yeah, three of the main types that we're seeing at this point.
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A
Got it. So if I'm listening to you, and as the folks who listen to this podcast are primarily nonprofit folks, what is the level of, I don't know, time, energy, resource that I might need in order to really maintain a giving circle? Because I think in theory it sounds great, but we also know like anything, it requires care and feeding and upkeep. And so realistically, how might I begin and how much time, energy and resources do I need to commit to making sure it's a very robust giving circle?
- [23:55]
B
It's such a great question, and I hate to say it depends, but I do think there are different approaches here. Typically, we recommend that you are investing, once you get your group up and running and into a steady state, that you're investing a couple of hours a week, right? At least inviting new people in, maybe making one post a week. Maybe it's a week where you're doing an event, but you're engaging with it once a week. It's not one of those things where when you think of launching a new social media platform, you're posting at least once, twice or three times a day. Right. This is not that. This is a bit different. And I think especially if depending upon the tools you use, you can rely on some of those tools to help facilitate some of the engagement. So it's not all on you. And, and that's where we've tried at Grapevine to build some of that infrastructure, for example, to connect members one to one for coffee chats so you don't have to do all that connecting and all have all those coffees yourself. But yeah, typically I would recommend that if you have someone on your staff or even a vol volunteer can be great. Keep in mind giving circles historically are a volunteer run movement. These are people who just care. People who like to be community builders to connect with others. You probably have some great volunteers at your nonprofit who would love to do that and can help be that facilitator. I would say that once you get to a steady state, I will say when we are helping nonprofits think about launching a giving circle, we tend to break up that launch period between the first month, the first three months and then the first year because these are kind of core stages. From what we've seen in a giving circle launch that first month, you'll invest a bit more, right? You're going to actually plan it out a bit more. Who are you inviting in? Who's that core group you start with? How do we then encourage them to invite others in? Maybe we do a launch event. So there's a bit more planning and facilitation to get that excitement going and try and get those first 20, 30 members into your group depending upon your nonprofit. Maybe it's 5 or 10, maybe it's 40 or 50. But core initial group in that first month and then we typically recommend really starting to engage that group to help you grow it with over the next couple of months. So you get a larger group within that first quarter and from there there's more kind of natural facilitation, I would say, that comes into the community connecting piece, sharing back of impact, encouraging members to invite other members into that next event. So I could go on and on obviously. But we have some great resources for nonprofits too that outline some really clear ideas and examples of how they can effectively do this.
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A
That's really helpful. One thing I'm thinking about, and maybe this is too technical question, but if we're thinking about developing giving circles to be inclusive of different folks in their giving capacity, how might we do that? Other giving circles that I'm familiar with have been very clear about, we have a minimum buy in of this much. So what does that look like?
- [26:52]
B
Yeah, it's a really good question and one that we do get often. You're right. The traditional model, it's hey, every member donates a hundred dollars a quarter or a thousand or $5,000 a year or whatever it might be. And that can be restrictive for some people. And so there, there are ways. So I would say that's been the traditional model. There are ways that even within that traditional model that some of those.
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A
Oh, Stella has made an appearance. She was whining. I'm sorry, please continue. She's very distracting.
- [27:21]
B
Yeah, no, she's welcome in the conversation. So there are ways that even within that traditional model where you have more of a set amount that each person contributes in order to have the same decision making level basically and where the funds go that people are trying to make it more accessible. For example, I spoke to a woman last week, she recently joined a giving circle where the. I think the donation amount per member is $1,000 per year. She's not able to do that on their own, but she was able to join with three other women and they split that between them. So they each contributed $250 per year to get that 1,000 limit. And then instead of having each of them having one vote, though to help decide where money goes, they split that vote between them. In that case, they have to now align as a group of four how they want to cast that one vote. That's one example we've also seen with giving circles, traditional models, them doing fellowships to try and cover some of the expense. So you still get the full vote power. But maybe there's someone else who has more resources and is happy to contribute to help a newer member get involved sooner than they might be able to otherwise, because they're not yet at that stage in their career or they don't have that capacity for whatever reason. So those are a couple of things we're seeing that I think is really exciting for that traditional model and these longer, more established giving circles. In some of the newer models, what we're seeing is people starting the giving circle with a more inclusive approach from the beginning. And for example, there's a giving circle several that we know of, where the ask is to contribute some percentage of your income or some percentage of your wealth. And it's typically on the trust, all trust space. So it's up to you to decide what that is. But in that way it can be scaled to what your capacity is. Other groups are even more open than that and just say whatever you can contribute, up to you, whatever's meaningful to you and possible for you, we want you in this community. And they have a broad range of contributors as a result. And there is no flexing of the decision making power or engagement opportunities based on how much you contribute. Because we're all in this together and that's. It's completely open in that way. So a few different models that we're seeing, but I would say generally more and more of these kind of financially inclusive approaches are popping up.
- [29:44]
A
So it seems to me that some of the value of a giving circle to folks is the decision making and the ability to grant where they want to grant. And I'm just wondering, I can already hear my nonprofit people screaming in the background, but if I have a giving circle, I don't want them to tell me where to put the money.
- [30:00]
B
Yeah, that's true.
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A
Yeah. So in those cases, are they raising for general ops, or do they tend to raise for a specific project or program? Or how have you seen that work?
- [30:09]
B
Yeah. So I would say first, in the broader giving circle movement, there is a very strong connection to more of a trust based philanthropy approach. And so even for giving circles who are deciding between different nonprofits to support with each of their grants, most often we see those are general Operating support. Right. And it's we're supporting you to continue doing this wonderful work. It's not restricted grant making by any means. Some of the larger giving circles, especially those that are giving larger grants, 50, $100,000 or more at a time, we do start to see more of the kind of restricted grant making model. There is that really strong element here where I think a lot of the giving circle sentiments are around trusting the nonprofit, supporting them, not asking them to do too much work, and just helping them in whatever way is best for them. With that being said, when how I see that translating into the model where a nonprofit is starting a giving circ could be that one, they don't let the members tell them what to do with the funds, but they're just very clear about what they're doing with the funds. There's a great nonprofit in Brooklyn called Fab Scrap, and they recycle fabrics from the fashion industry in the New York area and make them available to students and artists at a really affordable rate and are also helping to spur this more sustainable movement at the same time. And for them, they don't have members of their giving circle tell them where to direct the funds, but every time they have a pool, they say, oh, we just bought this thing and. Or we invested in this thing. And so it's very clear that connection to the impact still. I have seen some other nonprofits, though, also give the members an opportunity to decide where within their nonprofit they would like those funds to be directed. And that can be a powerful opportunity as well in terms of engaging and educating your donors, because now there's like a real incentive to learn about these different programs that you're doing because, oh, I want to make sure that I cast my vote for the one that I think really makes the most sense for our group or the one that I am most excited about. It does depend, and I will say the largest giving circle on the Grapevine platform that has raised over $9 million has never had its members tell it where to direct its funds. So it's certainly not a critical piece of the model.
- [32:28]
A
Awesome. Emily, in our last minutes together, is there anything that we haven't covered that you think it's important for folks to know about givingst goals in Grapevine?
- [32:36]
B
Gosh, maybe I would just reiterate that this is a really exciting moment for this movement. And as I mentioned earlier, that report came out showing it's now the fastest growing form of philanthropy. And giving circles, now a movement of everyday people, have donated more than $3 billion to nonprofits. So a big number by any imagination, by any measure, but especially when you consider that it is everyday people that are engaging in this. So, so I think what I would leave you with is just that this is an exciting movement and it's worth taking a little time to learn more about. Because I think for all nonprofits who are thinking about fundraising and sustainable fundraising, where do we go next? And staying relevant, I think this will become more and more important. And whether that means for you as a nonprofit identifying giving circles that could support your work and making sure that you're in front of them and you have advocates within those groups, or it's thinking about how you can start your own, I just think there's a lot of opportunity here for nonprofits to explore. I hope people learn more about it.
- [33:41]
A
Emily, thank you so much for all the work that you have done with giving circles and bringing this to the forefront. We'll make sure to put your information in the show notes along with Grapevine. So folks, if you want to learn more about Grapevine, you want to start your own giving circle, you want to find a giving circle, you want to join Giving Circle, we'll all be there for you. I want to thank you so much.
- [34:00]
B
Wonderful. Thanks, Ria.
- [34:01]
A
Hey you, it's Ria Wong. If you're listening to Nonprofit Load On, I'm pretty sure that you'd love my weekly newsletter. Every Tuesday morning you get updates on the newest podcast episodes and then interspersed, we have fun special invitations for newsletter subscribers only and fundraising inspo because I know what it feels like to be in the trenches alone. On top of that, you get cute dog photos. Best of all, it is free. So what are you waiting for? Head over to riawong.com now to sign up.