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- [00:00]
A
Hey you, it's Ria Wong. If you're listening to nonprofit Load On, I'm pretty sure that you'd love my weekly newsletter. Every Tuesday morning, you get updates on the newest podcast episodes. And then interspersed, we have fun special invitations for newsletter subscribers only and fundraising inspo because I know what it feels like to be in the trenches alone. On top of that, you get cute dog photos. Best of all, it is free. So what are you waiting for? Head over to riawong.com now to sign up. Foreign welcome to Nonprofit Lowdown. I'm your host, Rhea Wong. Hey, podcast listeners, Rhea Wong with you once again with nonprofit Lowdown. Today I am inviting my friend and guest, Dana Snyder. She is speaker, author and host of Missions to Movements podcast. She is the founder and CEO of Positive Equation and just recently released her book, the Monthly Giving Mastermind. Dana, welcome to the show.
- [01:02]
B
Thank you, Ria. It's always a good time when I get to chat with you and catch up. We would talk for 45 minutes before we even hit record.
- [01:08]
A
Oh, I know, totally. Like, let's talk about all the things. Okay. Since we last spoke though, big things have happened. You have published a book.
- [01:17]
B
Yes.
- [01:18]
A
You. I think you had a baby when we last spoke, but you had a baby.
- [01:21]
B
Yeah. Now she's a like full blown toddler.
- [01:23]
A
Oh my gosh. Amazing. I saw her. So cute. You launched a mastermind and you have. And you did a big summit around monthly giving. So. Question, when do you sleep?
- [01:36]
B
I actually sleep, like really well, surprisingly. I think I just, I get this question a lot. And I think being a mom entrepreneur, I know better how to prioritize things. And what's actually surprising, I think this is actually a really interesting point that I am a solopreneur. Basically. I have a part time staff member that's with me 20 hours a week or so. And then I have two VAs and that's my team. And everyone's always like, how do you do all these things? And I think I've just found people who have their zones of genius and I've taken away a lot of things on my plate that are not mine or that I should not be doing that I was not doing years ago. And so I get this a lot from nonprofits I work with because they're very usually in a very similar situation as myself. And maybe you see this with your clients too. And I'm like, we're not all that different in like the business side of things. It's just how you build people around you to actually make all the things happen.
- [02:33]
A
Yeah. Oh my gosh, that is such a good point. Cause actually, like you, I talk to nonprofits all day and it's the same issue. We all have the same 24 hours in a day.
- [02:41]
B
Totally.
- [02:42]
A
The question is, how do you make the time that you're spending on the thing the highest leverage you can? And I feel like I see a lot of EDs out here spending time doing things that are really not their job and are not a high return on investment because either A, they haven't hired anyone to do it, or B, and this is usually more the case. The people that they have hired are not competent.
- [03:02]
B
Yeah, yeah. Finding that is the gem. Like finding the people. Like once I found Kat on my team, I was like, you're amazing. Like self sufficient, kind of has that entrepreneurial spirit. But that again, is part of when you're hiring, like making sure you're asking those questions and seeing if they're going to work in that way to really support you and how you work. I'm definitely not a micromanager. Like, I just. That's just not me. And I want people to really take autonomy for the things that they do. Listeners, if you're feeling the same way, find yourself, do the interview, write the right questions down, use chat GPT to help you, and then really build out who is that mini dream team. We were just actually talking about coaches that we've worked with and masterminds were a part of that. They have very small teams and they run seven figure multi. Seven figure businesses.
- [03:50]
A
I know. And I'm just going to plug one of my favorite hiring books, who the A method for hiring. It totally changed my hiring game because before that I was like doing all the things that people told me to do about like behavioral interview questions, which is honestly, it's bullshit because people can tell you whatever they're going to tell you. Right? Like, how many times did I hire someone? Great interview, great references, the whole thing. And then some. A different person showed up for work and I was like, where's that person that I interviewed? Because it's not this person.
- [04:21]
B
Oh, it's the worst.
- [04:22]
A
It's the worst always.
- [04:24]
B
Then you hire. But then quick fire, if it's not going to work, don't drag it out.
- [04:27]
A
Yes. Oh my gosh. This week's podcast, I talked with Brooke, our mutual friend, about some of the biggest mistakes I ever made as an ed was I hired the wrong people. And then I held on too long because, like, I just really wanted to believe that they had it in them. Right. I was like, okay, I'm gonna make a tracker for you and I'm gonna invest in professional development. I'm gonna send you to. And I'm not saying don't invest in your people, but when it's fundamentally a competency and a will issue, like, you're never gonna change that.
- [04:54]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Agreed.
- [04:56]
A
Okay, wait. So many things to talk about. I want to talk about monthly giving, but before we do that, I want to talk about coaching. Because you and I have touched on this briefly, but you and I are both working with business coaches and it is a significant chunk of money.
- [05:09]
B
Yeah, it is a scary chunk of money.
- [05:11]
A
It's a five figure investment. And I feel like for me, it was the biggest investment I've ever made in my business, in myself. But it was a very, it was a very focusing amount of money. Right. If I spend this amount of money, I better see some roi. So talk about how you decided to invest five figures in yourself for a coach.
- [05:33]
B
Yeah, so I think I was, I started my business in 2017. The mastermind was in 2021. So I was already like a few years into my business, doing most of it by myself, figuring it out by myself, googling the way through starting a business or asking friends. And I just realized it was also 2021. Right. So that was a tumultuous time. And so I was really trying to figure out where I wanted to go in my business. And I was unsure. I was like launching courses and then I was trying to get speaking underway. I also at the time launched like a desk business which doesn't exist anymore. So that's like a total curveball. I think it was just we were moving to Atlanta. There was a lot of chain life changes happening and I knew I needed direction. And I also knew I wanted to uplevel myself and to do that A, I knew I couldn't do it alone and I wanted to be in a room with other women, other female entrepreneurs that were. That I was aspiring to be. And by being amongst those people, I not only knew I was going to feel inspired, but I was going to get the answers to the questions. Because we all were dealing with either similar challenges or they had already overcome challenges that maybe I was having that therefore I could get like a shortcut solution by learning from them. And so it was a year long program and to the point where that was in 2021. I am still really good friends. Five of us from that group split off and we have still done like monthly calls together. We've gone to one of the girls weddings. Like we've tried to get in person to do our own still masterminds. And then I even just met when I was in Nashville for raise into for a book launch event. I she lives in Nashville. So I was like, hey, can I do a VIP day with you? And that half VIP day was 5, 000. So I've continued to invest. And then now, because I signed up for her mastermind through listening to her podcast for years and then obviously built trust and relationship over a year. So when she asked me or when she told me basically my VIP day rate is 5, 000, I was like, yeah, no question, because I know the value. That's gonn.
- [07:44]
A
Yeah, no, for sure. Like, for me, I just started with my coach, but look, he told me it was $20,000. And part of me was like, whoa, that's a lot of money. But then the other part of me was like, look, I'm looking at it from an ROI perspective. I could either spend a bunch of my time trying to figure it out, or I spend the money and you just give me. I call it the cheat codes. Like, just give me the shortcut for the thing that I need to be focused on for the highest leverage. And I feel like that mentality is something I really appreciate when I meet other folks, particularly executive directors, who understand that sometimes it takes money to make money.
- [08:21]
B
Like, absolutely, absolutely.
- [08:23]
A
And it's particularly relevant because you and I both have masterminds, right? So I'm like, look, I'm only interested in talking to people who understand that A, it takes money to make money, and B, that money is actually the easier resource. The resource that you can't get back is time.
- [08:41]
B
Absolutely. Oh, my gosh. And it's such a good point. So after I've had now four, I'm about to wrap another one Mastermind rounds, and we do reunion calls. And so they build on each other right after some. After a group ends and they join the reunion calls. So those calls are so beneficial because they continuously are learning and getting ideas from one another. We had a whole call a couple months ago that somebody was having trouble getting their board of directors to give, and so people were literally sharing their playbook and exactly how much like. And there's nothing more valuable than, like, hearing from your peers from different organizations of different causes about how they approach things. To me, that is invaluable. That's. That is. The true value of a mastermind is community and listener. If you're not as familiar, I know we both have mastermind programs, but essentially because I talk about it now at conferences I go to and I ask people to raise their hands if they've ever heard of a mastermind. It's actually very few in our sector. And so it is the collection of usually a smaller group of people, like minded people coming together to solve challenges with one another. Solve challenges, provide solutions and share in it. The mastermind concept is eons old.
- [09:54]
A
Mostly Napoleon Hill, everyone.
- [09:56]
B
Yeah, mostly with men getting together back in the day talking business. And in our work we always say relationships are pivotal. They are everything. And so it is no brainer. Hands down, master. Being in a mastermind changed everything about my business and I would not have created my own if I didn't if I hadn't been in one myself.
- [10:20]
A
I totally agree with you.
- [10:21]
B
And write a book that's called the Mastermind.
- [10:23]
A
I love that I love. I. Cause I think there's something to be said for you are the average of the five people you hang out with the most. And if you're around people who are achieving at the level and doing the things that you try to do, then you're just naturally going to up level. And so I can't say enough about masterminds. And I know people are out here being like, but it's a lot of money. Yeah. It's not nothing. It's not an insignificant amount of money that you're investing. But think about the return on that investment. Like to your point, you created your mastermind. You wrote a book. In my Mastermind, I'm like streamlining my business. I actually wrote a book as well. In the masterminds that both of us run, we're seeing tremendous results from people. So I just think that there's nothing better than a mastermind.
- [11:09]
B
Agreed. Ditto.
- [11:11]
A
Okay, let's talk about, let's talk about your mastermind. Let's talk about monthly giving. So I find it really interesting that you've carved out this niche of monthly giving, especially now that we think about things like subscription based businesses, Netflix and you know, meal kits and whatever. So what first got your mind on monthly giving?
- [11:30]
B
So I have been a monthly donor for a long time and the main cause that I've always been really passionate about is anti human trafficking efforts. And I remember when I first was like just starting my career and I was broke and I was living in New York. Like I would do the A21 walks and I would volunteer with my church and anti human trafficking efforts around the city and we actually went into strip clubs. And in pairs and handed out note. We got to like the backroom moms. It was like the most empowering slash scary thing I've ever done because a friend of the church had been like trafficked in that situation. It was a really like, I don't know, it changed my life. And then when I moved to LA and I found Dress Ember, who's now gone through a merger with International justice mission ijm, they had launched the collective. And I remember thinking like, what is a $25 one time gift gonna do with everything? I know that just felt silly. However, what If I gave 25amonth and that was compounded by hundreds of other people giving that amount? And so to me it was a no brainer. And that was actually, I feel like even like still like earlier on in all the subscriptions that we have now. But then in the same vein, when I was living in New York City, so this is like 201314 and Birchbox exploded. And so all of these like makeup beauty boxes stitch fit like all of these things started to pop up. And I just loved being a monthly donor. I loved receiving the communication, the surprise and delight moments that Dress Ember did. And at the same time, this is when in 2021, I was going through my mastermind and I was like, why is this not like every organization leading like this? Because I'm following the trends of what we're seeing in the subscription economy. And in 2020, 78 cent of adults globally have subscriptions. So why would we not want sustainable recurring revenue for our organizations? Predictable revenue. And so I just basically got really excited about it. Plus I had this love of technology. And also at that Same time in 2020, 2021, there was a surge in the nonprofit sector of new tech tools and changes in tech tools to really focus on a recurring first mindset or upsells. So this was all like percolating at the same time. The miss was and when I was starting to talk to at that time like one on one clients and I would ask them, why don't you have a monthly giving program? They'd say, we just don't have the time, we don't have the personnel, we don't have time to audit our tool or get a new one or then how do we write the copy for that? Or build a landing page that's going to take so many people. So it's always on the end of our to do list. And I was like, what if I pulled all those people together that I know and that I trust that do really good work. And people could have this similar mastermind experience that I'm experiencing. Except through it, we're literally building your monthly giving program together in a small group format. So that was the. This random series of things happening at the same time that merged its way from like personal and business to create this like, love of monthly giving. And I think it's. You mentioned at the beginning, I just had a monthly giving summit. And what blew my mind is this is my first year running it. I had no expectations. There was 2,100 people that registered from 47 different countries. The show they stay the average person. It was two half days. From one to four. The average person stayed four hours and 30 minutes.
- [15:12]
A
Wow. That's incredible.
- [15:14]
B
My mind. And so there's a very strong appetite for this. And monthly giving is typically a session on a summit or a session at a conference. But I really think like it's gonna. It will be the game changer for our sector if we can really harness and focus on this recurring first mindset that I'm really big on.
- [15:39]
A
I love that. But let's talk about the recurring first mindset because I agree with you from a pure income standpoint. Where I'm wondering is, we already know that most nonprofits have retention problems and they're not actually stewarding their donors particularly well. So how do we think about that when we are looking at monthly giving? Because with monthly giving, there always has to be, at least from my understanding of it, some reason to keep people in. If I see this amount leaving my credit card every month, I need to know that there's some value exchange there. And given that a lot of nonprofits I talk to feel very strapped for time and capacity. Like how do you build in the surprise and delight factor such that it merits seeing that monthly charge? Leaving my credit card?
- [16:31]
B
Yeah, absolutely. On the simplest thing, sending out monthly emails, like personalized emails specific to this segment. And where are the funds going? There's lots of automation and we were talking about automation before we recorded that. You can do with lots of snail direct mail providers nowadays where through zaps or even direct integrations into your CRM, a direct mail handwritten piece can be automated and sent out, but it's actually written with pen that has a message on it. There are so many tools to help you be able to scale, even if you're a small team, to keep that meaningful ship going. I actually to literally this point, the Tim Tebow foundation is an organization that blew up in their recurring giving. I'm talking about in one year went from 6, 500 to over 20,000 plus recurring supporters. What they were having though, was this retention problem. And that's because there was no true strategy of how we're going to retain these people. And what has happened because of the subscription economy and what we're, what we as consumers get from brands is this very personalized experience. And so therefore, why would we not want that when we're giving to a nonprofit? And so what we talked about, I did a VIP intensive day with them down in Jacksonville and we built out this 12 month and beyond plan that included SMS, email, Facebook ads, because most of their new donors were coming from Facebook ads. What else am I missing? Oh, and snail mail. And then some like surprise and delight things. And so we had this kind of like Omni channel, but most of it was set it up, set up to be automated. So once it's set, it just continuously trickles. So it's just like the chunk of the work at the beginning to get it going. And the key to all of that was right when somebody makes a gift on the thank you page, if you can, with your current system, is you're asking them how do they prefer to be communicated with? Because you want to be looking at what is the email open rate of these people? Email open rate is low. They're just not seeing it. Whether it's going to their promotions tab or spam or trash on accident. They're thinking, I'm not hearing from you even though you might be sending something. So you want to make sure that you are reaching them where they should be. And I think one of the biggest misses in our space is not using this phone enough.
- [18:53]
A
Yes, 100%. I mean, it's so funny because it's like people I don't know, like when it comes to things like fundraising, it's. They forget the things that they know. I'm like, do you not send audio messages to your friends? Do you not do the quick video? We have the technology. Don't be afraid to use it.
- [19:11]
B
Yes, ask for the phone number. Yeah, ask. And then if people like this is during the summit. This is acquisition and stewardship. Marcus Collins was the opening keynote speaker. I adore him. He wrote the book for the Culture. His whole premise is really talking about the network effect of culture and what it brings. And he talks about people trust. People trust their people, which is so true. And so how do you find and market to the people who have the same ideologies and values and beliefs that you do? Actually, somebody on, I have a Sustainer, Slack, group of like 100 plus nonprofits focusing on building month giving programs. And somebody just today asked what. What's like the donor Persona for that I should be looking for. And at first I kept thinking about, like, demographics. I was like, psych. Find the people with the values and the beliefs and the identity. The subculture do not, I think, a big mess. And this is. We are recording this Happy Thanksgiving right before giving.
- [20:12]
A
Oh, yes. The super bowl of giving.
- [20:15]
B
The super bowl of giving. Go niche. Go super niche. Don't mass market, because then you're like throwing spaghetti at the wind and you're hoping that a sliver of those people are actually your people. But like, what trade publications? What podcasts? What are people listening to? What publications are they reading? What influencers are they following? What brands are they buying from? Like, super niche down into finding people the same values and beliefs and spend your money and your time there. And then those people, what I love what he says is there they will be. They will event evangelize for you and essentially be your believers and talk about your organization for you.
- [20:57]
A
Yeah, it's so funny. I recommend the same strategy for major gift giving, and it's a different set of mechanisms, but the concept is the same, which is don't waste your time trying to get everyone in the world. Spend your time in a very surgically precise way around the people for whom this is going to be their thing, and they're going to be able to give significant gifts. Because I think we're in too noisy an environment to try to compete with the apples of the world. We're just not going to compete with them. So how do we go deep, not broad?
- [21:27]
B
Yeah, for sure. They're an example, though, of a great brand.
- [21:30]
A
Oh, they're a fantastic brand. But they also have a bajillion dollars, I think your average nonprofit.
- [21:34]
B
But they have also focused on sharing their values and beliefs. Apple stands for we're going to go against the status quo. We're going to do things different than everybody else. And people. I am an Apple person. Like, you'll probably never see me with the Samsung. Like, I have an. I am. I have an imac. I have a. Like, I have all their products.
- [21:51]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The switch cost is too high for me right now. It's. I can't. But to your point, it's like. But when you look at the market, maybe now with the iPhone, it's different, but, like, they don't have huge market share globally, but what they do have is a percentage, a very Passionate percentage of people who are Apple people.
- [22:10]
B
Totally.
- [22:11]
A
Who will always be Apple people. Okay, what else? What are some common misconceptions about monthly giving programs?
- [22:17]
B
Oh, goodness. Okay. One big one actually in talking to the major donor, Liz over here, is that if somebody's a monthly donor, will they still donate to us in a one time capacity for a major gift? And so there's a fear, there's a risk of if I ask them to be like a 50amonth monthly donor, I'm going to miss out on their $50,000 contribution. That is 1000% false. I am proof of that. I have given multiple times to the organizations even though I'm already a monthly donor because I love what they're doing. If you make a strong enough like compelling ask. Yeah, I'm in. And it's actually a wonderful pool for you to find people who then have the capacity to become a major donor. I would even love like your perspective on that. That's one big fear that people have.
- [23:02]
A
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, I think the fear is rooted in scarcity and making decisions for people. Right. Oh, if I do this, they're going to be offended. And the truth is like somebody who's giving to you at 50 bucks a month is probably much more likely to give you a bigger gift than someone you've never met before, have had no engagement with who you're going to ask for a $50,000 gift from. I just, there have to be some indications that I'm on some level engaged and like being a monthly donor is a good first step on your side.
- [23:34]
B
I also think I would love to be at the place where if somebody came to me and said, would you be willing to make a 50, 50000 contribution that I could actually do that and that they felt like I could do that. Yeah, I would feel honored and I would be like, wow, that is so kind that you think of me. And then I would just tell them what I could do. I don't know. I don't think there should be any fear in that. It's like ask and they're gonna do what they feel compelled to do. I don't know, I'm not in the major gifts world, but I would feel like so honored if somebody asked me.
- [24:05]
A
That I, I would be a little bit like, are you crazy? I'd be like, okay, that's crazy. I. The way that I would think about it is a little bit differently, which is how is that monthly gift a first step in a conversation for us to then create a Proposal that makes sense, that is aligned with the thing that I want is, which is aligned with my budget, which is aligned with my timing. So if like, someone randomly was like, could you give a $50,000 gift? I'd be like, okay, clearly you don't know me because if you did, you would know that is a ridiculous.
- [24:38]
B
I'm not saying going from a 50amonth to $50,000. Yeah, no, I just meant if you're at the point where they're giving a substantial level and it makes sense to like, go to that next step.
- [24:50]
A
Yes.
- [24:50]
B
I'm just saying I'd love to be at that point.
- [24:52]
A
Yes, I would love to be at that point. No, no, let's say differently. We will one day be at that point. We're going to manifest it.
- [24:57]
B
Manifest it. There you go.
- [24:59]
A
And this is like a big thing that I'm trying to build some traction around is I think the way that we've historically been taught to do matrix is really stupid in that it. It's okay. I identify people and then I qualify them, which, like, may or may not be accurate. I qualify them through screens or whatever I do. Then I start to cultivate them. I start doing. You should be like, do you want to go for coffees and whatever? However, no to you. But unbeknownst to them, like, they don't know that they are in a cultivation process. They're just like, I don't know, maybe Dana just likes hanging out with me or. Cool. I love coming to all these events, but because there's not been an explicit conversation about, hey, do you want to be on this journey? Do you want to be cultivated? Then I'm confused. You're confused. Then you're just like, hoping that this will lead to a solicitation. And then I build it up to like this, this big, like, moment where I do the big ask. And it's awkward for me because I feel nervous and it's awkward for you as a donor because you're like, what the hell is happening? Oh my God, I had no idea this was happening. So my who thing now is let's pre qualify people, then qualify people and in the qualification, literally give up the whole game. Hey, here's what we're going to do. We're going to go on this journey together. At the end of it, we're going to co create a proposal that is going to be aligned this and this. And then I'm going to put it in front of you and then we'll discuss it. Does that work for you? Cool. Let's do it. And that way there's no surprise. There's no gotcha moment. There's no. It's like I love that.
- [26:22]
B
Same thing with monthly giving. We've been taught ask for the one time donation, then 30 to 60 days you want to convert them to be a monthly donor. Scratch that. If we know and data has proven year over year over year over year, that one time retention rates are 20, 30, 40%.
- [26:41]
A
In the toilet. Yep.
- [26:43]
B
Yeah. In the toilet. Why would you not ask for recurring first gift? And this goes back to. Why would you not find your core believers? Like all of the organizations that I give monthly to right now, I have never given a one time donation. I started as a recurring donor because I believe in the long term solution of what they're doing. I know it's going to take longer than a month or a year to do the solution. And it's something that's affordable. It's basically on demand for me and I just, I believe in them. So why not go for those people then? Trying to spend. How much time and energy do we spend on trying to convert people who have never given. Who have given a one time $25 gift that maybe did it because their friend asked them to or whatever.
- [27:28]
A
Yep. Yep.
- [27:29]
B
This giving to like recurring first.
- [27:32]
A
Yep.
- [27:32]
B
Make it the lead ask. I'm not saying you don't should not have a one time option somewhere on your site, but make recurring first ask. Explain the impact of what a monthly gift can do.
- [27:45]
A
And.
- [27:45]
B
And I bet you if you tell the stories in a compelling way, people are going to be willing to make that contribution.
- [27:52]
A
You know what, Dana? I think we should team up because to me the recurring gift is actually an indication of engagement. Like I totally. It's much more engaged for me to give a recurring versus a one time. And if you are showing engagement, then you might also be showing that you are more likely to be open to the conversation to move you into a major gift donor.
- [28:14]
B
Yeah. Or not even that. But open the door to other conversations and partnerships.
- [28:19]
A
Yeah.
- [28:19]
B
Or relationships that you know.
- [28:21]
A
Yep. Yep.
- [28:21]
B
I have this. So I give locally to the Hope Booth and Gloria Yumana. I. She actually just texted me right now. This is why this popped up where she was like, hey, we have a potential for a really big match gift this year and I know you work in monthly giving. I'd love to brainstorm if you have time to get your ideas about how we could use this match gift. So she's asking me for my time and what I do in my experience and I'm like, yeah, I'm totally down to help you when works to me so doesn't have to necessarily sometimes be a major gift. But she's. We've also sat down for lunch and I'll say who are the brands that you're trying to do partnerships with? Let me see if I know anybody like that kind of stuff.
- [29:02]
A
Last question before we get to the book because we only have a few minutes. But when it does monthly giving go awry? Because what you're saying makes a lot of sense and I'm sure that there are people who do it badly. I'm just going to call out ActBlue for for a minute for basically spamming me all the time.
- [29:18]
B
Ugh. Awful.
- [29:19]
A
I know.
- [29:20]
B
If so on trying to acquire you.
- [29:22]
A
No just try either trying to acquire or trying to get me to continue giving on a monthly basis. Cause I think there. And maybe it's not monthly per se, but there just seems to be a tension between being persistent and being a stalker. Yeah.
- [29:39]
B
Yes. There's definitely a balance in seasons of when it makes sense to increase heightened communication. I always laugh at like tools like HubSpot where you can literally tell like when somebody's on your website or somebody's open something and then they immediately contact you. That's okay, now you're stalking me. I think there's should be like a humanized element to it where like what logically makes sense And I try and think about it in a natural conversation. What would you do in a natural conversation right after you leave lunch with somebody, are you then going to message them on Facebook and text them and give them a phone call and no, you would not do that. So don't make your marketing do that. Make it a natural like relationship progression and leave some space in between. You want to remain top of mind, but you can do that in not such a always ask forward way. I think that if you maybe were receiving content from them that was impact based without an ask, then you just might naturally be like, I love this story. I want to give now. We don't always need to be pushing the ask down everybody's throat.
- [30:46]
A
Yeah. I tell this to my students a lot, which is the 8020 rule, which is like 80% of the content that you're sending out should not be an ask. And I think the mistake that a lot of people make is that every time they contact their donors or their prospects, it's asking. It's of course I'm going to unsubscribe because that's like watching TV and getting nothing but commercials. What's the value add for me?
- [31:06]
B
Yeah, totally. That's a great analogy.
- [31:09]
A
Last question for you, friend. You wrote a book. Yay. Yay. I want you to talk about the process of writing a book and what you think. Actually, I'd love for you to talk about how you think the book positions you in the space because I actually think many of our nonprofit listeners should think about writing a book.
- [31:26]
B
I agree. I 100% agree. This process is really fascinating. The book itself, if you are somebody who wants to like DIY a monthly giving program, it's perfect for that. It shares the framework that I teach in my mastermind. Plus it has 15 case studies of nonprofits of all different sizes, all different causes, and what they've done to build, grow, and sustain their recurring giving programs. So check it out. But yes, I went hybrid publishing. So, listeners, I think books are wonderful because there is no better business card than handing somebody your book. You can sit down in your cozy spot, grab your favorite beverage, and you are immersed. And the length of a book, you're never going to get with a podcast conversation or somebody or listening to a webinar. It's actually a really great story. My book publisher, Ali Alison Trowbridge from Copper Books, started her career in the nonprofit space because she read a book called not for Sale in the anti human trafficking space. She read the book, was so inspired, wanted to work for the company, got a job for the company, and that book propelled that founder to then speak at all of these conferences around the globe and created the organization. So like, it is a massive thought leadership utensil for you to utilize for your organization. There's a publishing route which is what we very commonly known as Simon Schuster and Wiley and all these other brands where the IP is usually owned by the publisher. They take a very high percentage of the book sales, which I'm not doing it for book sales. It is more for speaking and getting the word out about what I do at a $20 option for people to grow monthly giving. And then there's hybrid, which is what I did. So I fully own ip. However, with publishing, the publisher takes care of everything for you, so you're not paying them. They're getting all the money on the back end from sales of the book. But I wanted more control. And so hybrid publishing, you are paying the publisher basically for their services. They still provide everything like the copywriting editor, the development editor, the COVID design, the interior design. All of that is done by them. The uploading to Amazon And Barnes Noble distribution. All the things shipping is still done by them. But you own your ip. So let's just say I wanted to share my ebook with you for free. Technically, if you have a publisher, that's illegal because that should be a sale. But I can do that if I want to or print it anywhere I want. And then there's self publishing. And the reason I didn't go the self publishing route, which you can totally do, is I just felt overwhelmed with I don't know what. I don't know. I've never published a book before. I was gonna want to hire need to hire a copywriting editor. I was gonna need to hire a cover designer anyways. Then I would have to project manage those people. I would have to upload to Amazon and figure that out. And that to me was already like more time and money than what hybrid was going to be. The book process, I did it very fast. So I wrote the book in four weeks and published it in four months. And at first my publisher thought I was crazy and she actually said no at first to doing it. She's our normal turnaround time is nine months to a year. And then she like called me back and she's let me ask you this, do you think you get me a first draft by X date? And I was like, I'll do it. She's okay, if you get me that draft, we'll publish your book.
- [34:59]
A
Amazing. You are a beast. Are you sure you sleep?
- [35:02]
B
So it was really fast. I just hunkered down and pushed it out and I was actually really surprised. I think when you're writing a book they want what sounds a lot, damn or damn daunting to a lot of people is that it needs to be 50 to 60,000 words for it to be like a solid book that people are going to want to purchase. And I remember just thinking that sounds outrageous. I was like, sounds like a massive college paper. And then when you get going and especially you listener like you probably have so many stories.
- [35:32]
A
That's right.
- [35:33]
B
That are just going to flow in experiences of your work and what you've done that you won't even realize it. And all of a sudden you've written a 300 page book. Once you get into the creative flow, it is shocking how fast it comes.
- [35:47]
A
Yeah. And now we have all these tools like ChatGPT that can help out. Not that will write for you, but can help you think about, brainstorm and assist and do some research. So now we're in the golden age of like why wouldn't you write a book?
- [36:01]
B
I was my research assistant or I'd ask it and I was like, okay, then what's the link for this? Actually, one big thing I used it for is I mentioned there's 15 case studies.
- [36:09]
A
Yep.
- [36:09]
B
But over a year, I interviewed all these nonprofits. I uploaded all of the transcripts, and then I asked for pull quotes on certain things that would have taken me hours.
- [36:20]
A
Yeah, totally, totally, totally. Yeah, I'm with you. I think having written a book is like one of the best introductions business cards, as you say. But also, when I was writing my book, I really wanted to be a workbook. Right. I wanted people to be able to use it to actually do something. Because it's one thing I think a lot of us get into. I'm just going to read more books or I'm going to listen to an extra podcast or I'm going to take that extra course. And you just get into like, procrastinate learning.
- [36:46]
B
Totally similar to yours. There's probably like, at the end of each chapter, I have these like, aha moments I summarize. And there's like full pages where you write notes or even have areas with fill in the blank y where it's taught you something. Now what's your why? Or like circle yes or no? I have in certain sections of what's relevant to you. So it's meant to be scribbled and written all over.
- [37:05]
A
Yeah, totally. All right, friend wrapping up. We are looking at Thanksgiving. We're looking at giving Tuesday. Your advice is go niche, don't go broad. So would you recommend not doing a full mass email? Would you only recommend sending out appeals to your niche? Like, what's your strategy on Giving Tuesday?
- [37:24]
B
One, I would go through and clean your list. If you haven't already done, you haven't already done. So scrub that thing. Because I just did this and I found like 1900 people who had an open things and I was like, why am I sending you things? You do a re engagement campaign and you might not have time in this timeframe that we're in right now, but at certain point, clean your list. There are lots of tools that can do this for free or not for free. Sorry, for a low cost, there might be free ones. But then once you do have it cleaned, I would send segmented messages so that you're not just like broad swipe. Sending the same thing to everybody on your list. If you do not have your list segmented, that is another step and I would strongly recommend you do.
- [38:06]
A
Yes, correct. And actually there's a really easy way that you can segment your list, which is you do an email and you have your reply back or you ask a question.
- [38:15]
B
Yes or in depending on the tool. Like I use Flodesk and so in mine. Now with the links, if somebody clicks on a link, you can technically add that as a new segment or add them to a segment. Not always perfect because of how bots and stuff work, but at least it gets you something better than nothing.
- [38:33]
A
Absolutely. Dana, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for sharing all your thoughts on all the things always so fun. I'll make sure that your information is in the show notes the your book which folks should definitely get. I have to get it for myself as well as links to your website if folks want to do your monthly mastermind.
- [38:51]
B
Yes, thank you. Yep, positiveaclusion.com sounds good.
- [38:55]
A
Thanks Dana. Happy Thanksgiving everyone. Hey fundraisers. Looking to nail those big fundraising asks? Check out my Big Ask gift program@riawong.com Bag say goodbye to uncertainty and hello to confidence with my program. Get expert strategies and personalized support to secure those game changing donations. Don't let fear hold you back. Join me and take your fundraising to new heights. We're enrolling now@riawong.com bag. That's riawong.com bag. So if you like big asks and you cannot lie, I'll see you in the program.