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Foreign welcome to Nonprofit Lowdown. I'm your host, Rhea Wong. Hey Nonprofit Lowdown listeners, it's Ria Wong with you once again with Nonprofit Lowdown. If you are listening to this In January of 2025, a very happy new year to you. Currently I am in beautiful Mexico City and there is a polar vortex in New York City, so I decided to skedaddle down south where it is a little bit warmer. I just had a delicious. What was it? Caldo de Gallina here in Mexico City. So wherever you are, I hope that you are staying nice and warm and toasty and enjoying delicious food. But let's get into it. So I've heard from some of you and you've said that you have enjoyed these solo podcasts. So I'm going to do more of them. If you have any suggestions or any topics that you would like for me to cover here, hit me up. Helloong.com I'm always happy to oblige and I'm open to suggestions and requests. But this week I wanted to talk about something that I've been thinking about a lot, particularly as we are wrapping up 2024, and that is the role of curiosity in building trust. And I thought about this because so many of us out here as fundraisers are always talking about, I want to build trust. I want to build trust with my donors, with my constituents, with my team. I want to build trust. But the thing that I was thinking about is the fact that trust happens over time. Like the reason why you trust your best friend over some random stranger that you met on the street is you have evidence over time that your best friend is someone, I would hope that your best friend is somebody that you trust. But that feeling of trust doesn't happen overnight. It shows up in a million different small ways and big ways. And it cannot be rushed. Trust is not something that happens overnight necessarily. So I say that all today that I wanted to talk a little bit about trust and the relationship. And one of the things I was thinking about is I don't know about y'all, but at the end of the year is when we get together with friends and family, some of whom you haven't seen in a while. And it's always very fascinating to me to see how often, or rather not often, people ask genuinely curious questions about yourself. Now, I'm sure that you have, and in fact, in many cases I have been that person where you're so busy talking about yourselves and when a topic comes up, you then somehow switch it back over to talking about you. And it's fascinating to me that in our modern life, in our society, we don't actually ask questions very often, or we don't ask questions in a way that is actually seeking to understand or seeking to deepen a conversation or seeking to build empathy. We ask a question often as a prelude to talking about the thing that I want to talk about. It's almost like I have a mental checklist of I know I'm supposed to ask a question, I'm supposed to talk about someone else, but I'm really just doing it in order to talk about me. Now, obviously this is a problem. There's a problem particularly too when we are talking to donors. And I want to flag a couple of different things here for you. So when we are talking to donors, one, I think it is very hard to escape what we're going to call the gravitational pull of self. The gravitational pull of self interest. What do I mean by that? As leaders of nonprofits, whether ed, a dod, a board member, or what have you, it is only natural that you are somewhat obsessed with the goings on of your nonprofit, right? Particularly if you're an ed. You are on the hot seat. You are responsible for people's livelihood, you have to meet payroll, you have to think about all the million things that you have to think about program and finance and the audit coming up and the IRS and the whatever. I get it. The problem is that when we cannot step outside of our own self interest, we can't step outside of the playlist in our heads of all of the different things that we have going on. It is very hard for us to step into the shoes of another because we're interested in our own game. And I don't say this in a judgmental way. I think it's actually very normal for us to be self interested because we are interested in the wellbeing of our nonprofit. But when we are unable to escape the gravitational pull of our own self interest, we cannot meet our donors where they are because at the end of the day, Everybody wants something. And to quote Annie Lennox, everybody's looking for something. And if we are unable to step outside of our own self interest and our own needs and wants and put ourselves in the shoes of our donor and really try to see the world from their anger, try to see the world through their eyes, try to understand what they want, try to understand how we might be able to facilitate the thing that they want. It's going to be very hard for us to be the best fundraisers that we can be. One of the things that I really believe as a fundraiser is that we are the Yodas to our donor stories. So if you've ever heard me, some of you heard me talk about this before, but all of us are the heroes of our own personal movies. We are all the stars of our own show, right? We see our lives in the context of ourselves as the main character and everybody else as a supporting player or a bit part or even a villain. When we want something, when we are on a path to achieve something, when we have an identity of the hero of our own story, we are looking for a guide. We are looking for someone to help us fulfill the vision of ourselves that we tell ourselves that we are. A classic example, this is Star Wars. Luke Skywalker is the hero of the story. Obi Wan Kenobi and Yoda are simply the guides and mentors to help Luke Skywalker achieve his status as a Jedi. He goes through trials and tribulations, he achieves a victory, and then he returns home in his enhanced identity as a Jedi. Another classic example might be Harry Potter. Harry Potter was just a normal boy until he found out that he was a wizard. And then you could argue with Hagrid, or you could argue that it's Dumbledore came in to help him realize who he truly was, to help guide him through these trials and tribulations and ultimately for him to achieve the victory and return home as the wizard that he was always meant to be. This is relevant because when we position ourselves as the guide and mentors to our hero's story, that is when we get resonance. That is when people want to work with us because they see how we help to enhance their story of themselves. Now, one of the other challenges, I think, as a fundraiser is we have to get over what my friend Greg Warner calls the Valley of Distrust. What is the Valley of Distrust? Simply put, it is the gap between where I am today and where I might be as a donor. But before I get to working with you and partnering with you as a donor, I need to get to this valley of Distrust, I need to bridge this valley of distrust. Now, what is the Valley of Distrust? This valley of distrust is our natural human inclination to be a little suspicious of. Why are you reaching out? What do you want from me? Are you going to ask me for money? This valley of distrust can also be created when people have been mistreated over time. Right? If a dog gets kicked all the time, of course they're going to be distrustful. They're going to wonder, if I'm approached by a human, I might get kicked again. Similarly, a lot of the donors that we work with have been mistreated by fundraisers in the past. They have been mistreated and sold a bill of goods, and people got to know them, quote unquote, and built a relationship only to ask for something. And so one of the things that we can do to bridge the valley of distrust is offer value first before we ask. So one of my tenants is give and then ask. What do I mean by that? So if you've been listening to this podcast for any length of time, or if you're on my newsletter, or if you attended any of the number of seminars that I've given, you will see this strategy in practice. And it is this. I offer this podcast for free. I offer my newsletter for free. I do a lot of trainings for free. With the idea being that I am trying to provide value first. I'm trying to demonstrate to you that I am a trustworthy person, that I am delivering content that is helpful and valuable to you before I ask for anything in return, before I try to sell you anything, before I offer my services, before I ask you to do anything for me. And that is because I need to demonstrate that I am trustworthy before you will trust me. Right? So first it's, I need to prove my trustworthy trustworthiness versus you will trust me. Because if I just rolled up in here without any effort on my part, and I was like, just trust me, how many of you would actually trust me? The other thing I want to point out is the ways in which we can use curiosity as a bridge over the valley of distrust. So let me just give you an example here. I was listening to a TED Talk, and this TED Talk was given by a sex worker, and she talked about how many of her male clients would buy her services, her time, for many hours, and most of the time she spent with them. Those aren't actually anything to do with sex and much more to do with intimacy, much more to do with connection, much More to do with having somebody to talk to without judgment. And I think the thing that gets in our way, especially as fundraisers, is that we're constantly both thinking about what it is that we want before we put ourselves in the shoes of what our donor may want. We're so busy practicing the ask. We're so busy busy thinking about when is the right time for the ask. We're so busy maybe having judgment about who people are, what they have, and what they should do for us that we actually miss the opportunity to connect as human beings. And when we think about why is it that people give? The truth is, everybody gives for different reasons. Some people give in order to build legacy. Some people give because they want to demonstrate values to their children. Some people give because they do want to see their name up on libraries and buildings. Some people give for religious reasons. Some people give because they think it's good business. Some people give because it's fun. Some people give because they want to be part of a community. The truth is, there are tons of different reasons why people give. And if we as fundraisers are not able to actually slow down the conversation, slow down the process, and really get curious about what is it that people want? Why does this matter to them? How can I help them to achieve the thing that they want? We miss the opportunity to actually build a lifelong partner. And you would be surprised, or maybe you would not be surprised at how often I work with fundraisers, and I ask them, well, why does this person give? And they say, well, I think it's because of xyz. And then I follow up with, well, do you know that? Have you asked them? Well, no, I haven't asked, but I'm pretty sure that's why they give. Okay, now here's the difference. The difference is thinking and knowing. And too often, I think we assume we try to read the tea leaves. We try to guess at what people want instead of actually just asking them, why does this matter to you? What would success look like? How might you want to be engaged with that organization? What is it that you're trying to achieve with your philanthropy, and how can we help you do that? And the truth is, sometimes I think we don't ask the question because we're afraid of rejection or we're afraid to actually hear that maybe we're not the thing. Maybe we're not going to be the most important cause in their life. But, gosh, wouldn't you rather know that than not know that? I always think about when we were kids and we sent Those letters on the playground, do you like me? Yes. No. Maybe. Check once. I think we have to have the courage to ask, do you like me? Yes. No. Maybe. Because when we operate in transparency, when we have the courage to actually lean into the uncomfortable conversation, that's when we both respect the process. We operate in transparency and we respect our donors enough to bless and release if this is not their thing. In fact, I think it is a win if in the course of conversation, we uncover that someone's real passion in life is to save the whales and we're an educational organization. It is then my job as a mentor and guide to my donors. Hey, gosh, that's not what we do. I would love to help you find a couple of organizations that do this thing that are highly. Well, are. That are highly regarded, like, what a gift that is. And I think when we're operating from a sense of scarcity, not abundance, we get into this mindset of, oh, gosh, this is the last donor I'm ever going to talk to, or if I. I'm going to blow this one conversation if I don't say exactly the right thing, I overthink it, all the things. But I think let's all agree in 2025, let's just be human, right? Humans screw up sometimes, humans say the wrong things, sometimes, humans don't always know what to do. But I also think that when we are operating from a place of integrity and genuine curiosity, nothing could ever go that wrong. At the end of the day, what I want to offer to you is this idea that donors want to be seen as human beings, just as you want to be seen as a human being. I often think about when I ran my education nonprofit, Breakthrough New York, every summer day, because we ran summer programs, I would stand at the front of the school and shake every single middle schooler's hand as they walked into the building. Not because I loved shaking sweaty muscular's hands. It's because I wanted them to know that they were seen and that they belonged as they walked through. And that not a single one of them was going to be unseen or ungreeted. As humans, we have a fundamental need to belong and the fundamental need to be seen. Think about when you were a kid and you were up on the high diving board and all you were doing is, mom, look, mom, look at me. I don't think that we ever outgrow that. Look at me. We all want to be seen by someone else. We want to be acknowledged. You want to be seen in our full selves. And so, as fundraisers, if we are in the position of being guides and mentors to our donor story, how do we help them be seen? How do we connect with their humanity? How do we ask them questions that are genuine questions about who they are, what they want, and how we can help them get it versus asking questions in order to elicit the response that we want? Couple keys here about how to ask really good questions. And I think about this a lot because actually over the course of this, of having this podcast. So I've now had this podcast for six years, weekly basis, I've had a chance to talk to hundreds of people and it's made me become a better listener. I will fully admit, at the beginning of my nonprofit podcasting career, I was probably not a very good listener. Wasn't actually listening to what was being said. I was thinking about the next question because I was thinking about how can I deliver the best product? How can I create the best podcast possible? And when I started to slow down, when I started to really get curious, when I started to hear what was not being said, I got better at podcasting, the conversations got better because I wasn't rushing and I got more curious. So the last thing I just want to talk about here is two last things I want to talk about here. The way that we phrase questions. So sometimes we have questions that are closed questions versus open ended questions. A lot of you already know about close ended questions, which are basically yes or no. By asking open ended questions, you get much richer responses. And I would say think about posing questions not in terms of why, because why can sound somewhat accusatory. And here I'm going to check Chris Voss, who is an FBI hostage negotiator. His colleague Troy was on this podcast a couple years ago talking about how to use FBI hostage negotiation techniques for persuasion and in business. So if you haven't listened to that, definitely go back and listen. But instead of using why questions, you use how and what questions, because why can put people on the defense and whereas how and what questions just helps people get into the space of thinking. Right. We've talked a lot about the amygdala and how the amygdala is the fear center of the brain. Right. The amygdala is the thing that activates when we feel threatened or we feel like we're in danger. But if we can ask calibrated questions to help us move into the prefrontal cortex, which is the front part of the brain that is involved with executive functioning, executive decision making, creativity, and so forth, we actually get on the same side of the table as people, and we engage them as problem solvers with us versus being interrogated by us. And the last bit of business that I'd like to talk about is the three types of listening. Some of you may have listened to this podcast with my friend Jason about the three levels of listening. And if you haven't, I'll reiterate it here. So there are three kinds of listening. So level one listening is listening to respond. And unfortunately, myself included, this is what we do. Most of the time. We're just waiting for a pause in conversation. We're just trying to insert the thing that we want to say. We want to figure out a way to turn it back on ourselves. That's level one listening. Level two listening is I'm listening, I'm fully present. I'm listening with no agenda. I am fully here without all the million things happening in the back of my mind. I'm not thinking about my to do list. I'm not thinking about what I'm going to pick up for dinner. I'm here, I'm fully present. And level three listening, which is really hard to do, but when you can do it, it's just. It makes magic happen. And that's listening for what's not being said. And so when I'm in level three listening, and by the way, it's very hard to do, right, it takes a lot of energy and mental load, but it's listening for things like changes in one's voice, changes in one's body language, changes in energy, and being able to pick up on that and say, what's there? What is that about? And getting really curious about what's not being said. So as we wrap this up, I want us to think about, in 2025, what are the ways in which we are being less judgmental, less quick to jump to a conclusion, and instead getting a lot more curious with our donors, with our board, with our team, with our loved ones, with our spouses about what's really going on. And I'll take this challenge for myself because I could certainly be a better listener and I could certainly be more patient, especially with my loved ones. So if they're listening, yes, I know, I'm sorry. But when we get curious, we start to uncover and understand the world from someone else's perspective. And when we can start to understand the world from their perspective, even if it doesn't make sense to you, you'll start to understand people. You'll start to see the world through their eyes, you'll get on the same side of the table as they are and you'll start to see that the greatest and highest honor that we can ever have is to be a conduit for somebody else's story. It's give. Thank. All right folks, thank you so much. If you like this kind of advice, let me know. Hit me up. Hellowong.com for those of us out here fundraising, it is going to be a wild year. I don't think that there is any time like the present to focus on your individual and major gift fundraising. When we think about all of the potential changes that are happening at the federal and state level, I don't think that we can count on federal or state money in the way that we have in the past. And so now is the time to double down on individual and major giving. So if that's something that you want to do and it's on your 2025 list, definitely check out my Big Ask gift program@realwalk.com Bigassgift There's a big old button there and if it sounds like it's a fit for you, you can book a free strategy call and we can talk about what it might look like to work together in 2025. Until next time friend. Take care.