#346- How an Indie Newsroom Fights Big‑Money Media with Yukari Kane

Summary

Nonprofit Lowdown Episode #346: How an Indie Newsroom Fights Big‑Money Media with Yukari Kane

Release Date: July 14, 2025
Host: Rhea Wong
Guest: Yukari Kane, Co-Founder and CEO of the Prison Journalism Project

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Introduction

In Episode #346 of Nonprofit Lowdown, host Rhea Wong engages in a compelling conversation with Yukari Kane, the co-founder and CEO of the Prison Journalism Project (PJP). The discussion delves into the challenges and triumphs of leading an independent nonprofit newsroom in a landscape dominated by big-money media. Yukari shares her journey from a seasoned reporter to a nonprofit leader, offering invaluable insights into sustainable funding, audience engagement, and the power of storytelling.

1. Yukari Kane’s Journey to Founding the Prison Journalism Project

Yukari Kane begins by recounting her extensive background in journalism, including her 15-year tenure at esteemed newsrooms like Reuters and the Wall Street Journal, where she covered major corporations such as Apple during Steve Jobs' era. Transitioning from reporting to academia, she began teaching journalism at UC Berkeley's J School. An invitation to teach at San Quentin State Prison became a pivotal moment, exposing her to the interconnected societal issues tied to incarceration.

"That first visit... was a real moment of awakening for me."
— Yukari Kane [01:26]

Collaborating with her co-founder, SH Raheem Pasha, they developed curricula to empower incarcerated individuals to tell their own stories. The onset of the COVID-19 pandemic and the tragic killing of George Floyd further galvanized their mission, highlighting the urgent need for diverse narratives.

2. Navigating the Indie Media Landscape

Rhea and Yukari discuss the shifting media environment, marked by the consolidation of publications and the dominance of corporate-funded entities. Yukari emphasizes that the traditional media industry's disconnection from readers has opened doors for independent outlets like PJP.

"We are really coming to terms that we as an industry, the media industry has lost touch with the world, with our readers..."
— Yukari Kane [05:26]

She argues that long-form journalism remains relevant, countering the prevailing notion that audiences prefer shorter content. By staying authentic and closer to community voices, PJP aims to reconnect with readers who crave meaningful and impactful stories.

"If it's a good story, people will sit down and read them."
— Yukari Kane [07:56]

3. Optimism Amidst Media Consolidation

When questioned about the future of media in an era where billionaires control major outlets, Yukari remains optimistic. She believes that the inherent human appetite for stories will sustain independent journalism, even as legacy publications evolve or fall away.

"The appetite for stories is as old as time. That is not going to change."
— Yukari Kane [09:47]

4. Ensuring Sustainability in a Challenging Funding Environment

Rhea shifts the conversation to the practical aspects of running a nonprofit, particularly fundraising and sustainability. Yukari outlines PJP's conservative budgeting approach, avoiding overspending to maintain financial stability.

"We keep a really conservative forecast... planning just a flat budget for the next few years."
— Yukari Kane [11:29]

Additionally, PJP's multifaceted approach—combining media production with educational initiatives—diversifies their impact and funding streams. Yukari stresses the importance of instilling a sustainability mindset within her team to navigate future uncertainties.

5. Effective Fundraising Strategies and Audience Building

Yukari attributes PJP's successful fundraising—raising approximately $1.7 million since its inception—to a strategic blend of relationship building and leveraging personal networks. She highlights the significance of storytelling in both journalism and fundraising, noting that compelling narratives can convert readers into donors.

"I'm building relationships, not just asking for money."
— Yukari Kane [16:47]

She shares a standout story about a writer who describes touching a kitten after years of hardship, illustrating how emotionally resonant stories can drive engagement and donations.

"Connecting it back to fundraising... journalism that brings about change."
— Yukari Kane [19:56]

6. Mastering Storytelling for Fundraising

Rhea and Yukari delve into the art of storytelling, emphasizing simplicity and audience awareness. Yukari advises storytellers to craft narratives with a clear beginning, middle, and end, tailored to their audience's interests.

"Write your story as if you're having a conversation at the bar."
— Yukari Kane [25:33]

She recommends using tools like the Hemingway App to simplify language, ensuring stories are accessible and engaging.

"Don't use jargon. Write as if you're talking to the barstool man."
— Yukari Kane [26:33]

7. Building and Maintaining Meaningful Relationships

Yukari underscores the importance of viewing fundraising as relationship-building rather than transactional interactions. By keeping connections alive, even with those who initially say no, nonprofits can cultivate long-term support.

"A no right now doesn't mean a no forever."
— Rhea Wong [22:40]

8. Personal Reflections and Mutual Appreciation

The episode concludes with Yukari expressing gratitude for Rhea's straightforward and practical advice, which has been instrumental in PJP's fundraising efforts. She appreciates the tangible tools and templates Rhea provides, which streamline processes and enhance efficiency.

"Your advice isn't a guarantee or a promise, but it's good to benefit from your experience."
— Yukari Kane [28:10]

Rhea echoes the sentiment, highlighting the necessity of up-to-date and actionable fundraising strategies in the modern nonprofit landscape.

Conclusion

Episode #346 of Nonprofit Lowdown offers a deep dive into the operational and strategic facets of running an independent nonprofit newsroom. Yukari Kane's insights into sustainable funding, audience engagement, and the transformative power of storytelling provide a roadmap for nonprofits striving to make a meaningful impact amidst the challenges of a concentrated media environment. Listeners are left inspired by PJP's mission to amplify marginalized voices and driven to apply these lessons to their own organizations.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• "That first visit... was a real moment of awakening for me." — Yukari Kane [01:26]

• "We are really coming to terms that we as an industry, the media industry has lost touch with the world, with our readers..." — Yukari Kane [05:26]

• "If it's a good story, people will sit down and read them." — Yukari Kane [07:56]

• "The appetite for stories is as old as time. That is not going to change." — Yukari Kane [09:47]

• "We keep a really conservative forecast... planning just a flat budget for the next few years." — Yukari Kane [11:29]

• "I'm building relationships, not just asking for money." — Yukari Kane [16:47]

• "Write your story as if you're having a conversation at the bar." — Yukari Kane [25:33]

• "A no right now doesn't mean a no forever." — Rhea Wong [22:40]

• "Your advice isn't a guarantee or a promise, but it's good to benefit from your experience." — Yukari Kane [28:10]

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Transcript

[Rhea Wong]

Hey you, it's Rhea Wong. If you're listening to nonprofit Load on, I'm pretty sure that you'd love my weekly newsletter. Every Tuesday morning you get updates on the newest podcast episodes and then interspersed we have fun special invitations for newsletter subscribers only and fundraising inspo because I know what it feels like to be in the trenches alone. On top of that, you get cute dog photos. Best of all, it is free. So what are you waiting for? Head over to riawong.com now to sign up Foreign welcome to nonprofit Lowdown. I'm your host, Rhea Wong. Hey podcast listeners, Rhea Wong with you once again with nonprofit Lowdown. Today I am delighted because I am speaking with my friend and guest Yukari Kane. She is the co founder and CEO of the Prison Journalism Project. And so today we are talking about what it's like to lead in a a fairly challenging environment both in terms of funding and in terms of the work that she does and how she is leading a growing nonprofit in this time. Yukari, welcome to the show.

[Yukari Kane]

Thank you so much. It's great to be here. I've been a listener for a while, so.

[Rhea Wong]

You're so funny. Okay, before we jump into all the questions I have, tell us a little bit about yourself and how you came to co found their prison journalism project.

[Yukari Kane]

Sure. I was a daily reporter for about 15 years, getting going through newsrooms like Reuters and the Wall Street Journal covering technology, focusing on really big companies like Sony, telecoms companies, Apple. I was the last beat reporter covering Apple under Steve Jobs. And then I left to teach journalism. I was in San Francisco at the time. I started teaching at UC Berkeley's J School. And I happened to get an email one day from a friend who said that San Quentin News, which was a prison newspaper at San Quentin State Prison, was looking for somebody who could teach people who wanted to write for the paper journalism. I thought I really got into journalism because I wanted to help tell stories of people that wouldn't otherwise get their stories told. And I had never intersected with the prison system and I was curious and I wanted to shake up my career a little bit. And so I thought, you know, why not? And that first visit, I'll never forget, was just really perspective changing in terms of just seeing how so many of the societal challenges that we talk about, from urban poverty to public school education, mental health, drug addiction, all of that is connected in some way to incarceration. And in this country we have about US has about 4% of the world's population and we have about 16% of the world's incarcerated population. And it's. Which translates to about 2 million people. Half of this country has or has had a family member or a relative who is or has been incarcerated. It's not, it's not a small part of our country and yet it's treated as it's marginalized. And so that was a real moment of awakening for me. And so I started teaching at San Quentin and. And then I met my co founder, SH Raheem Pasha, who teaches at Penn State right now, and she was teaching at a jail on the east coast. And we just decided to combine our work and developing curriculum and training for people inside to be able to tell their stories. And then the pandemic happened and everybody was talking about it as a historical moment. And from our vantage point, we just saw how yet again another sizable group of people were not going to have their stories told or shared. Left for history. And so we started a publication on medium. And George Floyd was killed two months later. And the story started changing. And within a few months we just had this holy, holy shit moment that there's so many stories. And it really awakened me to seeing that, realizing how much we were all missing out on because we weren't inviting the community to be a part of the storytelling.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah, Ash, there's so much to unpack there. And particularly I just think the act of teaching people how to write well is such a gift in and of itself and the ability to communicate and it's funny, actually, just before this, I just did an interview with Diko, who was talking about the power of speech and debate and the ability to help people articulate and speak for themselves. And I think obviously journalism is another avenue for that. Let me switch tax a little bit because I think writ large, and I don't have to tell you, the media landscape has shifted quite significantly and we're seeing the consolidation of a lot of publications. I think it's never been harder than it is right now to be in indie, in very saturated corporate funded media environment. So I'm just curious, from your perspective, being a small new nonprofit independent publishing company, like, what are the challenges that you're seeing in this moment?

[Yukari Kane]

I think that it has become clear, although we say we've been saying this for a long time, but I think that we are really coming to terms that we as an industry, the media industry has lost touch with the world, with our readers, certainly that people don't want to read the stories that we're writing, especially the kind of stories that we live for. Which is investigative reporting, prize winning stories, really long stories, people don't want to read them and, and they're not interested in being told how to think or what to what to know. And, and I come at this from a very specific perspective, running an organization like Prison Journalism Project, which invites people who aren't trained as journalists to do this work. But I really feel like part of the reason why we have lost touch is because we remove ourselves from the people. Right. And there's this idea in journalism that we make an impact through our stories. The stories are what changes the world. We don't directly touch the community. And I think there's room for both really powerful stories that can bring about change, but also to share in the work that we're doing and to be much closer to communities. And part of the change that I'm hoping that we bring is that by inviting people who aren't trained to not just share in the storytelling, but to share the tools that we use to do it, which is, as you say, extraordinarily powerful and important as tools that people use in their own lives. Like by sharing in that and we can become relevant again because people are going to first of all, understand how hard it is to do this work, how hard it is to tell a really good story and, and also understand or, and also be able to use the tools and apply it in their own lives in the same way that I use journalism tools all the time to, in my personal life, in fundraising, in really everything. Because arguably the world is based on stories. People love a great story. Yeah.

[Rhea Wong]

I don't know if I'm just having a boomer moment, but the thought that long form journalism is going to go away makes me so sad because there's nothing I like more than the great read on the New York Times or like settling in with a big juicy piece in the New Yorker.

[Yukari Kane]

I don't think it's going to go away.

[Rhea Wong]

Okay, tell me more.

[Yukari Kane]

It's interesting because we have an audience engagement editor who is always watching what our readers are reading, how much stories being accessed, all of that. And she was just telling me yesterday that people, media organizations have built businesses under the assumption that no one's interested in reading long stories. And it doesn't necessarily have any correlation of whether they, they do well or they don't. I think proximity and authenticity is really powerful. If it's a good story, people will sit down and read them. It's just that we have to mix it up and we have to be responsive. We have to be not just listening to the community again, let them tell the stories that they want to tell in a way that can be compelling to other people in their community. And I don't think it's just that long. I don't think it's a blanket. Nobody's reading long form stories. I think, I think that maybe more readers have a, have a problem with journalists. This idea of journalists bestowing these stories, it's, it maybe it's the attitude that we bring sometimes or the attitude that we're pursuing, perceived to be bringing that is, that may be an issue.

[Rhea Wong]

This is a little bit out of the scope of what I wanted to talk about, but I'm curious on your thoughts about, you know, the future of media and the intersection of media and money and the fact that so many of our major media outlets are controlled by billionaires who have the power to kill stories or get rid of op eds or op ed departments that they don't like. Or even in the case of tech, which is, I know was your beat the extent to which billionaires are able to control the algorithm to or get rid of fact checkers or control what is seen and not seen. So I guess my question is, are you optimistic about the future of media?

[Yukari Kane]

I am. Honestly. The billionaires that control media, it's not a new thing. In some ways. If you go back a hundred years like they, the newspapers were started to be the mouthpiece of what the wealthiest wanted to say or wanted people to think, I, I think, yeah, if you look in a microscopic way at things that have been happening, those are all. It's upsetting to me too. In a bigger sense, if you take a step back, we're all in it for the story. And yeah, important stories, there's all kinds of stories, right. And we can have a conversation about what stories are important and what stories are fluff and all of that, but people's appetite for stories is as old as time. Like that is not going to change. And yeah, I'm optimistic. I think it's going to change. The legacy publications, the publications that were most important are not necessarily going to be the same ones that stay. But it'll evolve. But I think ultimately, yeah, I hope so.

[Rhea Wong]

All right, let's switch over to the nuts and bolts because, you know, I love talking about fundraising, I'm about the money. I'd love to know how you're thinking about sustainability in a pretty tough funding environment, particularly given who you're representing. Because I think that this administration in particular has shown itself to be very, very Free about not wanting certain voices to be heard or not empowering certain people. And yeah, like when you think about sustainability in terms of funding, in terms of staffing, in terms of the future of prison journalism project, how are you thinking about that?

[Yukari Kane]

I, first of all, I keep a really conservative forecast, really conservative forecast. Just because as I watch the publications and organizations that are folding, one of the things in common is that it's usually partly due to overspending, expending too much. It's probably not just media, it's just in general. And maybe that's something to do with human nature. But we've tried to be really conservative. Right now, for example, I'm planning just a flat budget for the next few years, and we'll take the opportunities as they come, of course. And so that's, that's something that I think about. I think that we as an organization are really fortunate because we're not just a media organization. We're also an educational organization. We're also in the criminal justice space. Of late, we've been thinking about our training in the context of literacy skill development and workforce readiness development. And so that gives us more buckets and just thinking holistically about the impact of our work and not just limiting our vision to narrative.

[Rhea Wong]

So what I hear you saying is keeping an eye on the, keeping an eye on the house, because I do think, particularly folks that I've seen. And not to use too broad a brush, but people who are program oriented aren't necessarily always thinking about the business side and the spreadsheets and the budget and the making sure that you keep a good handle on the expense side. Yeah, go ahead.

[Yukari Kane]

I was just going to say that I think about our spending, of course. I also, there are different ways to control your capacity. One is to cut down on spending or hold back on your spending. The other is to cut down on what we do. And I think that's one of the hardest things to decide, what we don't do now and what we don't do at all. And the second thing I would say is that it just can't be me that is in this mindset. I've spent a lot of time sharing with my team how I think so they can also adopt that mindset, too. And I think that is going to be crucial in our ability to survive over the next couple of years that we're all thinking in the same way.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah, that's such a good point. However, on the other side, there's also the raise more money. And you have been tremendously successful in raising money, despite the fact that you didn't have a background in fundraising, though I think you were able to use a lot of your journalism skills quite well to apply to fundraising. So talk to me about what it's been like for you because you're relatively still young. You stepped out of the gate. I don't think you had much funding, and in a pretty short order, I think you raised like 1.5 million in a year. Is that right? Something like that.

[Yukari Kane]

Not quite that fast.

[Rhea Wong]

We are.

[Yukari Kane]

We got our start in April 2020. And it's very nice of you to say, Maria. It doesn't feel like it on the ground. It feels. It's. It's one of those things where it just never feels easy. And so it's been a climb. But we are now a $1.7 million, I think, Ria, when we first met, we were. I think we were a $6,000 organization. And maybe my co founder and I put a couple of those thousands in. So we were really. We had no money. And so I do appreciate that it has been a fast, relatively fast growth and simultaneously too slow for the momentum of our work as well.

[Rhea Wong]

I know it's never enough, but talk to me about what was your strategy in terms of building quickly and getting revenue in the door? Cause I know a lot of your early success was. Is really your own personal network, right?

[Yukari Kane]

Yeah. And I really want to say that I knew nothing when I first started. I really knew nothing. I had never. I've always had the luxury of working in large legacy newsrooms where there was a big wall between business. I never had to worry about money to be able to do my work. I was brand new to this. And I, looking back, I really approached it like a reporter. And if you're a reporter working on a new story, the first thing you do is you research. And so you try to understand how it's done and who's doing it really well, which is partly what brought me to you. I think I found I was connected to. I think it was Katie Orenstein at the Op Ed Project, which is another amazing organization. And she introduced me to you. And, and that was that first class that I took that really helped me understand how fundraising works and the ecosyste and the structure of it. And. And then it's networking. It's being able to tell your story. And I, maybe it's helped that I really appreciate and understand the importance of a good narrative. And it's ultimately, it's a lot like source development when, when you're reporting. You. You network, and you. You pick up a pebble at a time to get to the story that you want to tell and to get information, and you make connections and relationships, and. And so I think the clincher was really understanding that what I'm doing is I'm not asking for money. I'm building relationships.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah. I was just on a call with the group today talking about. The real shift happens when you stop seeing yourself as an extractor of resources and more as a philanthropic advisor. Like, I'm walking alongside people to help them do the thing that they want to do, whether it's with me or not with me. But I think when we come from this energy of partnership and abundance versus, like, scarcity and squeezing people, it changes the whole dynamic.

[Yukari Kane]

Yeah, for sure. And people. I do appreciate that. People. Even if I think that there's tendency when you're running an organization and you have a really great mission, you're passionate about that. That you are not that you're the only ones that care about this and want to make a change, but you're. You look at people as people that are helping you make that change. And I think maybe you were one of the first people that pointed out that we're really helping them make the change in the world in the way that they want to. It's very clear when you work with foundations, because they have a vision for how they want to bring about change, and it's all about alignment with their mission. Do you fit into their vision? Can you help them make that change? And that's been. That's. That was. I think that's another big aha moment.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah, I think. And it really just shifts everything, too, because all of a sudden, it's just, okay, I'm out here trying to matchmake versus I'm out here, like, squeezing blood out of a stone. By the way, did I ever tell you my first job out of college was at Mother Jones magazine?

[Yukari Kane]

Oh, really? No. You never did.

[Rhea Wong]

I thought I was on a path to journalism, and then I was. It was the early 2000s, and I was like, I feel like this intern thing is not a flash in the pan. I feel like maybe, like, media, like print media is not the future. I'm gonna go make my fortune a nonprofit. My Asian parents are so proud. Why am I not a doctor? This is the question.

[Yukari Kane]

So obvious question.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah, the obvious question. Oh, my gosh. I was just. My husband. There was this thing going around on social media. It was like every Korean kid's worst nightmare. And it was like this Korean kid who was like a Navy seal, then he graduated from Harvard Medical School, and now he's a Nast NASA astronauts.

[Yukari Kane]

I saw that. I saw that.

[Rhea Wong]

Every Asian parent is like, how come we're not like this kid? But actually, let me ask you, because this is one of the things that you've done very well, and I think everyone can really learn from this, is you've built a very. A very sizable audience. And in part, obviously, it's media that's like what you do. But talk to me about the strategy, because what I think a lot of folks may not be thinking about in such an explicit way, and certainly I didn't, as a nonprofit, is your pipeline is actually in your audience, right? So when you think about building your email list or building your social media presence or doing traditional media, what you're doing is you're building an audience of people who potentially could be your donors. So how are you thinking about audience building, audience growth? And what have you done that's been super successful?

[Yukari Kane]

I hired an audience engagement editor who has a lot of experience, and she has taught me a lot about analyzing the audience data, just really like data crunching and analysis. And so she is looking at what are our top 10 stories, what kind of stories are there? And we're trying to right now infuse that feedback back into the editorial work that we're doing. Not that it's the only thing that matters, but if something is resonating with audiences, then we want to pay attention to that because it's also something that is connecting with their audiences enough that they're giving money, which is hugely powerful. We the. One of our most popular stories all time is a story by a guy, a writer who wrote about touching a kitten. He describes himself as a hardened guy, and he describes the act of touching a kitten for the first time in 15 years, touching something soft and alive and furry. And it resonates so much that we share it frequently. And every time we share it, we get a few donations. And I don't know that I. I don't know how many stories have that kind of impact. And it might be surprising because some of some traditional journalists might say that's not journalism at all. But if it connects with somebody and it brings people into this space to be thoughtful and think about people in prison as people and humans and. And next time when they vote or they're having a conversation at dinner, they think about that guy. Think about that. That, to me, like, that is journalism that brings about change. That provided a perspective that you might not have otherwise. And so I think connecting it back to fundraising people are not just one thing. I think everybody knows that, but it doesn't hurt to think about it in various contexts. And people are not just one thing. They can be readers, but they can also be donors or they can be supporters, they can be fans. One of the things that I've learned over the past few years is that even if somebody says no to you, like, don't write them off. Like, if they have taken your call or they've responded, they're interested enough in your work to have done that. And which means that there is room to build and expand that. And I think that's when it's really helpful to stop thinking transactionally and thinking about it as a relationship builder, because we have. We've had things happen where I'll keep them. I'll keep them updated on the work that we're doing. And three years go by, and they're like, oh, yeah, I was talking to this person about pjp, and they won't really want to talk to you. That's. That all helps.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah.

[Yukari Kane]

Yeah.

[Rhea Wong]

I think it's so important to you, to. You said so much that I want to unpack. A no right now doesn't mean a no forever. And it could mean not yet, not now, not at that level, or not for that project. And the fact that someone still chooses to be in your ecosystem indicates that there's some level of interest. So I always like to have people think about keeping the door open, like keeping the lights on. Right. At some point. If you want to come on in, I want to let you know where it is. The other piece, too. And I think this is so important, and I'd love to get just a quick masterclass here. We talk about fundraising and narrative and storytelling, and you said that you really appreciate the power of narrative. For those of us out here who are not professional journalists, what is the. What are the key components of a good narrative that I can think about when I'm sharing stories about the lives that we change, the pup that we save, Whatever it is that I do.

[Yukari Kane]

In the world, I think the very. The first thing is that just make sure there's a beginning, middle, and end, which seems obvious, but may not be. If anybody has written, there's. You joke about starting a. Starting the story with it was a dark and stormy night. Right. Don't do that. You don't want to be boring. You want to. Don't. You don't have to Start at the beginning. You know, I. The way I think about it is I think about who my audience is. Who am I speaking to? What are they interested in knowing about me or my organization? And what is the best story that I have to speak to that. And so I will introduce myself differently. I'll introduce PJP differently, depending on who the audience is. And. And so I think going back to that audience mindset, like, always think about who is your audience, what are they interested in knowing, what is going to capture their interest. And it's okay to leave stuff out. You do not have to tell the entire story. I think it might be helpful to think about the best dinner conversation you've ever had. Right. And what made it great. And then think about the most boring dinner partner you've ever had and what made that boring. And take your cues from the most interesting conversation.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah. When I coach people on storytelling and the fundraising, it's so funny because people can tell stories. Like, you could tell a funny story at a dinner party, but the moment you're like, okay, tell me a story. I don't know, like, something happens when they lose the ability. And then this thing happened. Like, that's like, you're the same person. How come when you were at the dinner table, you were, like, doing the voices and you were acting it out, and it was like, super. And then it's, tell me a story. And then this happened. And then this happened. You're like, wow, there's just. I don't know, there's something that happens when people are told to tell a story versus, I think, naturally, a lot of us do tell stories.

[Yukari Kane]

I think people get nervous. They also stop thinking about their audience as humans. And. And then they get really. Sometimes I've seen. And this happens in writing, too, but you become really formal because you feel like you need to convey the gravity of the importance of what you do and when. In fact, the more important something is, the more simple you want your language to be. Like, don't use jargon. Don't assume that the other person knows anything. At the Wall Street Journal, we used to have this. We used to talk about. Write as if you're talking to the barstool man. And the idea was that, like, write your story as if you're having a conversation at the bar, telling people about this amazing story that you've uncovered. And I think the same could apply to speaking and telling a story as well. Just don't. You're not, like, leave it. Forget about the importance that will come through.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah.

[Yukari Kane]

Because your mission is probably great and you're doing important work. Just tell your story like you're just talking to the guy who happened to sit next to you in the bar or you're talking to your friend's mom and they've asked you like, what do you do?

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah, the thing I've been doing recently, and folks, if you're listening to this, you might want to do it too, is I've been running copy through this thing called Hemingway App, which uses AI to simplify language to I think the level of a fifth grader.

[Yukari Kane]

Oh, interesting. Yeah, we, we do that in our work with our writer's copy. But that's an interesting application.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah, Hemingway App, people. Because often what I find with folks who write, like their emails or their newsletters or whatever, it gets very. I'll be honest, I'll just say it's boring. It's boring, people. It's boring. It's hard to read. The paragraphs are too long. You're using long, complicated, technical words and I'm not going to read it. Quite simply.

[Yukari Kane]

Yeah, I think sometimes what actually, often what is that people really feel like they. For people to take you seriously, you need to be serious as well. And you need to use really big words and they're people too. And forget the big words. Nobody likes big words.

[Rhea Wong]

People like white space. People are scrolling and they're scanning. Make it easy to scan. Okay, last question for me, friend. And I know this sounds a little self serving, but I'd love to know from your perspective. You and I have known each other for a couple years. We've had had multiple occasions to work together. In fact, I'm working with one of your staff members now. Tell me a little bit about why do you keep coming back? What's the experience of having worked with me?

[Yukari Kane]

You tell it straight. In a world of hemming and hawing and ambivalence and I think especially in fundraising, what you get is, oh, you can't make any promises. There's no rhyme or reason. Be yourself, do what works for you. And you have brought really concrete tools and tips and advice which I really appreciate because I know that you know, what you say or your advice isn't a guarantee or a promise. Like I know that. But it's good to benefit from your experience. I also appreciate that you share how the work is done, the templates that you get. It makes a huge difference than some abstract thing because I run my own development program and I have one development associate who helps me and provides the support. I Still, there's so much I don't know. There's still a lot I don't know, and I don't really have time to figure that out by myself. And for you to say, okay, here's a template, whether it's a formal template or this is something I've done, it's just really helpful and it cuts back on the time and allows me to be efficient and stay on top of trends.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah. Thank you for saying that. Actually, it's funny you say that, because I designed it for the person that I was back in the day, because I felt like I was getting a lot of fluffy advice. Listen. For the gift, I was like, I literally don't know what that means. What are you talking about? What. What am I supposed to say? What am I supposed to do? How do I set up the meeting? And so, because of how I knew, I learned. I like, very straightforward, do this, not that advice. I was like, okay, clearly there might be other people out here like this, because when I first started, I was like, does someone just know? Like, how do you all just know this, Stu? And I don't like, what memo did I not get that apparently everyone else got? And it turns out that there is no memo. And, in fact, that's why I had to write this.

[Yukari Kane]

And most people don't have it. But, yeah, there are books, there are things online, there are resources you can read to understand the fundraising mindset. But once you understand that, then you're like, how does that actually happen? If you're building with the work that we're doing with you right now is building a major gifts program, and where do you start? You taught us that you start by cleaning your database. I'm not going to think about that. It just feels really overwhelming. I. When I wrote a book, or before at the start of the project, when I was writing my book, I had my mentor say to me, don't think about the entire book, just think about one chapter at a time. Which was hugely helpful. But if it's something like fundraising, where you don't even know what those chapters are and what order they should go in, it's just so inefficient. And I think in these times, like, nobody has time to be inefficient or to figure stuff out by making mistakes.

[Rhea Wong]

Right? Yeah. The other piece that I would say is a lot of the advice I got and I think people continue to still get is really outdated advice. It's like advice that they've formulated. I don't know when they formulated it, but it's just not relevant to life in 2025 because the market has changed, consumer behaviors changed, media has changed, email, digital has changed. And why are we not getting up to date information and tools and strategies that are aligned with our modern day world? And so that's where I'm hoping to really fill the gap for folks.

[Yukari Kane]

Yeah, no, I totally see that. I've worked with people who think in terms of just the, whatever that traditional fundraising process is and nobody has asked whether it's effective. It's working. Is it working now? And, and it's really frustrating to be there. And I think, I love that you're constantly evolving too.

[Rhea Wong]

Thank you friend. You Hari. This has been awesome. I will make sure to put your information in the show notes for folks who want to learn more about the participant journalism project. Y' all are doing such important work. So I thank you for that and thank you for the show.

[Yukari Kane]

Thanks for having me. And sign up for a newsletter.

[Rhea Wong]

Sign up for the newsletter. That's it. All roads lead to the newsletter. If this is the last thing you hear on this podcast, everything, all the social, everything you do on the website, all roads lead to your email list.

[Yukari Kane]

Yes.

[Rhea Wong]

All right, thanks.

[Yukari Kane]

Take care.

[Rhea Wong]

Bye. Hey fundraisers. Looking to nail those big fundraising asks? Check out my big ask gift [e-mail] bag. Say goodbye to uncertainty and hello to confidence with my program. Get expert strategies and personalized support to secure those game changing donations. Don't let fear hold you back. Join me and take your fundraising to new heights. We're enrolling [e-mail] bag. That's riawong.com bag. So if you like big asks and you cannot lie, I'll see you in the program.