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- [00:00]
Unknown Speaker
92% of your warm donors will ghost you. That's not a typo. It's a crisis. And here's the truth. It's not your fault. But it is your problem. That's why on July 23rd, I'm hosting the Donor Reckoning trademark. This isn't your feel good note taking webinar. This is a live wake up call for fundraisers ready to stop the bleeding. You'll get the system my clients are using to close six figure gifts fast. And if you show up live, there will be tools, playbooks, strategy. There's no replay, no fluff. Reserve your spot through the link in the show notes.
- [00:41]
Rhea Wong
Welcome to nonprofit Lowdown. I'm your host, Rhea Wong. Hey, Nonprofit Lowdown fam. It's Ria Wong with you once again. So this must be Nonprofit Lowdown. Today, I'm excited to talk to my guest and friend, Anessa, holder of E. Easterseals, N.J. anessa's been with the organization for almost 15 years and currently holds the title of Chief Advancement Officer. We are going to talk about all things fundraising, particularly as women of color, which is a perennial topic that I like to talk about. So, Anessa, welcome to the show.
- [01:15]
Anessa
Thank you so much, Rhea. I love listening to your show, so it's even better and even cooler to be on the other side of the mic with you. So thank you for having me.
- [01:23]
Rhea Wong
Gosh, so fun. Okay, so before we jump into it, I'm just gonna say what? You've been with Easter Seals New Jersey for almost 15 years. That is incredible. Talk to me about digging around for that long, because I think the thing we all hear about is people leaving their jobs every 18 months.
- [01:41]
Anessa
I know. I feel like that's a long time for a millennial. Right? Like, we, we don't do that. We're. We hop around. But the thing with this organization is, like most nonprofits, there's. It's ever evolving. And for the last 15 years, I started as a director of marketing. I'm now chief Advancement officer, as you mentioned. So I get to oversee advocacy and government relations in addition to marketing now and fundraising and information and referral, which is more or less a type of customer service. So that has happened over the course of the 15 years. We've evolved from different environments, different economic environments, funding environments. We've added programs, we've taken away programs. So that evolution has had me very engaged, as if I had worked at a bunch of different companies.
- [02:25]
Rhea Wong
Yeah.
- [02:25]
Anessa
Yeah. It's pretty exciting.
- [02:27]
Rhea Wong
Yeah, I say that a lot.
- [02:28]
Anessa
Typical not typical.
- [02:30]
Rhea Wong
No. I was at my organization for 12 and a half years, and I feel like, oh, good. It was like three different organizations that I ran within that time because we grew so much and the challenges were different. There's always new and exciting challenges. What did they say? That the devil is in the level. It's every time you level up, there's some new problem that you have to solve.
- [02:48]
Anessa
So. Yes, yes. That's a good one. I haven't heard that one. That's a good one, though. Yeah. It's a blessing to be at an organization where you can continue to grow and learn. And I think that's what I value. And I think that's a lot. What a lot of folks, especially the younger folk coming up, really value is being able to get their hands on, learn new things, contribute and have more impact. And I've been able to find that here and in other spaces as well because I started consulting and helping other organizations and fundraising and marketing. So being able to just touch multiple missions, it's just incredibly fulfilling. So, yeah, I've been very lucky.
- [03:24]
Rhea Wong
Yeah. And we're definitely going to talk about that because I want to see if we can drum up some business for you, because I know you just started getting into board training, which is an area that everyone needs and very few people do well. So actually, let's do a little detour. Tell me about your new projects. Doing board training for folks.
- [03:42]
Anessa
So I fell into it. We have a big, small world in the nonprofit sector, and I was pulled into it by another woman of color who works in the industry, mostly in grants and foundations, and she was looking to supplement. She was working with a lot of different clients across the space and just needed an expert in different areas, so contracted out to folks who were stronger in the area of major gifts or stronger in the area of board development. And so that's how we came together, her and I. It was just a match made in heaven between the two of us. We work very well together. We complement each other, and it's just so rewarding to be able to go into those rooms with these board members who are volunteering their time and provide them different mindset reframes on how they can be approaching this work, especially with fundraising, and watching their face when they have these aha moments connected to money. It's similar to the aha moments I had when I went through your course, Rhea, and how you taught us about reframing our money mindset. It is just an incredible thing to witness because once they get over that Hump. It's just so many more doors and opportunities are open to them in terms of asking and bringing people into the mission that they're supporting. So it's a. It's work that I didn't know I would love. Can I just tell you, by the way, I didn't. I never wanted to be in fundraising.
- [04:57]
Rhea Wong
I feel like a lot of us, like, had either were accidental or had. No, I didn't want to be a fundraiser. Like, little did I know I'd make my entire career on fundraising. Same, same, more fun.
- [05:07]
Anessa
It's just my own mindset. Reframe money was icky. I'm not asking people for nothing. I'm too proud. I have my own money. And now it's just incredible the level of impact that you can have when you reframe the way you approach this work. And I feel more blessed that I have the opportunity to invite people into these different missions, teaching that reframe to other board members or organizational leaders. It's just really awesome when they have that same aha mindset. So love that work. Didn't know I would end up in it much like the rest of the work that I'm doing now. But it's been exciting and it's been great and very impactful.
- [05:43]
Rhea Wong
I'm going to take a little detour because I think this is really important because I think it's one thing for people to hear, oh, it's like an opportunity to join and you're not taking from people. I feel like people hear that and they're like rolling their eyes like, oh, okay, sure. The peanut butter and chocolate, to me is when you invite people to unpack their own stuff. And let's just talk about, I think, as people of color, as women of color, there's a lot to unpack around our own money story. The generational trauma we may have experienced, the relational trauma that we may experience. So, like, I'd love to know from you, like, what was the thing that helped you to unstick yourself?
- [06:23]
Anessa
I think for me, I grew up with a single father who worked really hard. He would go to work, he'd leave the house here in Central Jersey at 5am and not come home until 8pm and he provided for us. But his management of money wasn't necessarily the best either. And so I looked at it in two different ways. Sacrifice. Daddy was sacrificing. And so how dare I ask for anything? He worked really hard for that. And also, I didn't necessarily learn good discipline. I knew the aspects of money, but I didn't know good discipline with money. So it wasn't something I knew back then to manage and manage well or that it could be a gateway to better things. It was just this thing that you had to work hard to get. And when you, over time as an adult and you unlearn those things first, you had to start by identifying them, as you mentioned, telling yourself and taking the time to reflect on your cultural journey. My dad is an immigrant as well. He worked his way up from the army at 18, coming from Panama, worked his way up from corporate America, from the branch all the way to these. These Staten Island Ferry, Wall Street. He had the office with the windows and people coming in and out. And I'm just sitting out there on bring your child to work day, and he's yelling at old school management, yelling at all his staff. And that's how it used to go back in the day. But he worked his way up. And so money wasn't a thing that you played with. It wasn't a thing that you asked people for. And it's not something I didn't want really to be involved in. It was a personal thing. I. I didn't see it as the tool that it really is. I didn't see it as the gateway to impact that it really is now. You're right. There was all these levels that needed to be unpacked as it related to money, and it's still that way now. As I work in fundraising, we're still unpacking these different layers of identity, not just in our connection with money, but being in rooms that we're not used to necessarily being in. In spaces with people that we may not have been exposed to, and that could go either way, not just race or gender, just for backgrounds and experiences. So it's. The whole job is unpacking of stuff. It really is. Because it's relational. It's relational.
- [08:28]
Rhea Wong
Yeah. Oh, God. There's so much that you said there that I want to unpack, because for me, I really stepped into my power as a fundraiser when I realized that I wasn't taking from anybody and that really I was simply a vessel through which people could realize their philanthropic.
- [08:47]
Anessa
Yes.
- [08:48]
Rhea Wong
Goals, impact. So, like, at the end of the day, I was sending kids to college. I'm like, you couldn't do what you want to do without me, and I can't do it without you. So how do we put it together to combine to something greater than either of us could do alone? And it wasn't until I hit that idea of being A matchmaker or a philanthropic advisor that all of a sudden I was like, wow, this is so badass to be able to move capital versus being a beggar. That's what I heard my whole life. Like, don't ever ask anybody for money. Don't talk about money. We're too proud. Like, we would. It did all the things. And then I was like, how did I get into a career in fundraising?
- [09:25]
Anessa
Yeah, but. And at the same time, parts of this are tapping into parts of us that are already. It's aligned with parts of our culture as well. Like, it's. Sometimes it's a contrast tube, and then sometimes it's connected to it. Like we are. We're black, Latino, you know, I'm from. My family's from Panama. So we have this very connected, bring everybody into the family relational kind of thing. So this relation building kind of aspect of fundraising isn't foreign to me. Once I realized that, it was just relationship building.
- [09:56]
Rhea Wong
Yeah.
- [09:57]
Anessa
That came much more natural.
- [09:58]
Rhea Wong
Yeah.
- [09:59]
Anessa
To my background. So there's parts of your culture and your layers that get tied in, and then some others that you're fighting with. But then you have to also remember the parts of the culture where, you know, in Latin culture, sometimes the women do a lot more than the men in certain aspects of things. So when I'm talking about the relationship stuff, it's being present, being available to our donors, for example, being supportive to our staff. And that kind of mindset of when I lived with my aunts in Panama. And kudos to them, it worked out well in their relationship. They were very supportive, always very present with their families, with their husbands when they came home from work, the food was ready. This conventional, traditional view of the household that I didn't see here in the US That I saw it there and there was nothing necessarily wrong with. It was a different approach that worked for them, but it stuck on with me. And so there. There's this sort of expectation as well for me with relationships of you have to be supportive of your team and make sure you're present for your donors. And all that can get pretty heavy as well. Right. Because. So identity is something else.
- [11:03]
Rhea Wong
Right. Well, let's jump into it because I do think that there's this hidden side, this emot. Labor of fundraising that we don't often talk about. And particularly if you're the leader, you're like, you're holding space for your team, you're holding space for your donors, you may be holding space for board members and your exec to manage upwards and So I guess I'd love for you to speak to the emotional weight of that people take on in fundraising, but I think especially women of color, that.
- [11:37]
Anessa
People don't always see such a heavy question there. But because there's so many, again with our favorite word, the layers. There's so many layers there. But you're right. So on the one hand, you're being the liaison, so you're the person who is talking to the donors at every level. So you have your corporate donors, and sometimes people think fundraising is just to ask. You are managing the relationships, and you're managing relationship with so many different stakeholders. So you have your corporate donors, and then you have your individual donors, and then you have a major donors who, some of which only want to be contacted by phone, only write me. So you have to know this entire portfolio of people, what their likes, dislikes are, how to engage with them, and that's one aspect. Then you have your internal audience, as you mentioned, you have to work with the program administrators, the AVPs or whomever internally and help them understand how fundraising works. I need your stories. I need you to be innovative with your programs, but we need to be able to tell donors or set a vision for them. So you're educating them. In some cases, you're creating relationships with them. So when something does happen, they call you first. Right? So that's a separate audience. And then you have your team, if you're lucky enough to have one, who are also doing this work. And sometimes they're overwhelmed, and sometimes they're not. Sometimes they need guidance. Maybe they're a little green. So there's a bunch of different internal groups that you're navigating, and that's a lot. And this is just at work. Forget your personal life and let you be in a relationship or have children or be on other boards like we are, or volunteer or consult. That's a lot of relationship management there. And as a woman and a woman of color, at least for myself, I'll speak on myself here a lot of times. And people, women that I know, we were never taught to speak about our pain. It was just you, something you especially, and I bring up the immigrant. We have Panamanians, have a very Caribbean background. And with the Caribbean influence is you just do it, you get the work done. Especially if you came to America, your parents came to America, did this for you. How dare you complain about having a long day at work. You're lucky that you get to talk to people all day and raise money.
- [13:40]
Rhea Wong
Or for you, talking to my Grandmother, really? Do you have work?
- [13:47]
Anessa
You're like, so there's this other sort of, lack of a better term. Chip on your shoulder, monkey on your shoulder, cloud over your head where you're thinking, guilty. You feel ashamed to be burdened or to feel burdened. And you feel like you must push through. I remember I had a boss who called me relentless one time. And on one side I was like, I think she's insulting me. But the other part of me was like, I'm going to keep going, because that's. I see my dad just day after day do what he needed to do to get to give us a better life. And so we don't give ourselves the break and we don't speak up about our pain. So we deal and we juggle all of these things and we don't do anything about it. We don't acknowledge it, or we don't speak or we don't seek help. And that is where we fail. That is where we fail.
- [14:27]
Rhea Wong
Yeah. No, I think you make a good point, because I've seen this in myself and I've seen this with other everybody, but certainly with women of color where they, like, stuff it down, they stuff it down, they stuff it down and then they just break. And by the time the cracks are forming, it's like, too late. You're like, why didn't you say anything like, X number of months ago when we could have done. Because that. We're taught that, like, you don't complain, you don't ask for help, you don't say what you need until it's too late and you're burnt out.
- [14:57]
Anessa
And I think that goes for a lot of women, but especially women of color. We didn't grow up in spaces where you were encouraged to speak. It's don't answer back. Don't talk in rooms where adults are speaking. Very gender dynamics, forget about it. That is hard. Now we are much more privileged to be in a space where mental health is a big thing in the workplace. And I'm really glad to see that. But even still, I work in mental health organizations, and I could see some people feeling like it's still taboo to have talked about that. So I make it a point on my teams and teams that I can influence where I will overshare or what you might call be vulnerable. And I'll say, today I am not feeling well. So I am not going to be very clear on this call. I'm foggy and I might need to end early because you don't want this nest, this Nest is not going to be productive for you. And it's fostered an environment where people feel like they can be themselves and they can be open and they can bring their authentic selves to work. Because the fact of the matter, nobody is perfect. Nobody is an AI robot. We're all human. And that means we need to rest and we need to set boundaries and we need to acknowledge that we can't get the entire to do list done or answer every email or every donor or every write every impact story. And that's just it. It's hard to do. But. And we're very passionate people.
- [16:12]
Rhea Wong
Let me ask you this because, like, I'm a grumpy Gen Xer, right? So I'm a little bit older than you, and full disclosure, people are going to have judgments about me on this podcast. But I gotta know, I find myself, I think that there's like a tension here between, look, work is called work. Like, it's not supposed to be fun all of the time. And I certainly came up through an era of just a suck it up, just get it done. I don't want. I don't care about your feelings. Which I think is like an extreme position. I think on the other end is what I'm seeing with not gonna. I'm gonna throw a little shake some Gen Z folks where I do see them, you know, being much more vocal about boundaries or like I was saying, my husband always shares this. He was like one of his employees he wanted to send to extra training because, you know, when he was coming up, he really liked to learn extra training, et cetera. And the person was like, no, because you're not paying me to be there. And honestly, I'm probably not going to be at this job for like the next six months. Or like just something like that was like, whoa. I would never have said that. So I guess my question to you is, what is the. I don't know if it's a line or like, how do you manage the tension of. Look, sometimes we just got to get stuff done and sometimes, like, it's not fun. And sometimes, like, there are just moments that you do have to grind. And also acknowledging that we do want to be a place where people have healthy mental. Mental health and good, healthy boundaries with work.
- [17:50]
Anessa
Yeah, I, I think for my team, I try to hire. I hire from mission and I hire for mission because there will be days where you're going to have to push through and it's very heavy and it's hard. But we fall back on two things. Is this too much. If it's just too much, let's take a step back and figure out how to make it manageable. But at the same time, the work must continue because this mission, as we all agree, is incredibly important. It has to exist. And we all agreed that. Right. And I hire people who agree that. And so that means our work has to. Do you believe that your work is making an impact? Yes. And if you do, then you know it has to continue, which means you know this. There is no slacking off. I manage for performance. I don't care how you do it. When you do it, you're going to do it, and you're going to do it. Whatever way you need to get there, it's fine. But we're all here for mission. And so until the day you feel like. I don't feel like I really want to do mission anymore, which is totally fair, and I will encourage you to follow your dreams, which any of my staff who have departed from us and done that have told you, it's never been a bad departure. I still keep in touch with them. They send me new people now. But the fact of the matter is everybody's not going to want to stay. We're all here for a cause. And until you not. Let's get the work done. Yeah.
- [19:09]
Rhea Wong
So let's talk about that, because I do think we were talking about being intense, grinding, like getting it done and then tipping into, let's call it the danger zone. So could you share a little bit about a time where you felt like you were tipping into the danger zone, whether it was emotionally, mentally sacrificing or personal. Because, look, every Ed I know @ some point or another has either come close to divorce or is divorced, Right? So, like, the job takes a lot out of you. So wondering if you could share from your own perspective. Like, when have you felt like you've hit that tipping point and what did you do about it?
- [19:49]
Anessa
Okay, so in this role, the tipping point could be so many different things. Right. You're dealing with donors, whether it's a gender dynamic or a class dynamic or a race dynamic, whatever. There's been scenarios where I've had microaggressions or just felt uncomfortable, and it makes you question yourself. Are you doing the job right? Did you approach it wrong? And you really have to stop and stop blaming yourself. You have to remember people could suck sometimes. Yeah. And you're dealing with a lot of people in this job. But there were times in those situations where, you know, because you are the fundraiser and then you're dealing with a donor, they feel like they have this different hierarchy over you, unfortunately. And so it takes some resetting of your boundaries with these individuals. And so you don't have to find your. Because I love this work and you love this work. So I'm not going to stop it because that person was nasty or I had a terrible engagement. So what I've had to learn is you have to set boundaries and you need to course correct those folks and let them know in the best way possible, which is not easy to do because you don't want to ruin the relationship for the future, but you're doing whoever comes after you a disservice. You're doing yourself a disservice by not resetting those boundaries very carefully with that individual. And there. It hasn't happened to me, but I've heard scenarios where people. You might need to cut that person off. That's not an appropriate person to be connected with your. If they're not going to treat people the way they should be treated. So those are things we need to keep in mind when you're talking about dealing with donors, but managing our workload as well. We talked about all the different areas of fundraising and balancing, from plan giving and making donor phone calls to working on the next event. I'm sick right now, and I have to be totally honest. It's probably because I'm approaching that point of burnout. And so if you. Here's the thing. If you don't start, say, setting your own boundaries, your body will do it for you.
- [21:46]
Rhea Wong
Yeah.
- [21:46]
Anessa
Something is going to. So what do you want? Would you rather tell yourself no? Are you going to wait until your body takes you down? And now. I'm a very active, productive person. Right. Fundraisers, we like to get things done. We're results oriented. So when you take me down two or three days, my body takes me down. That's worse for me. So better. Wouldn't it be better just to say no? So every time you say yes, when your body says no, it's going to catch up with you. So take the time now to really say, all right, I feel like this is becoming too much. What can I step back and do? Who can help me? What can I delegate? Can I just turn off for half a day? How much would it hurt? Because we need you, we need your energy and you need me to be involved. My staff need me. The donors want me to guide them. But if I keep pushing and pushing, it's not. None of us are going to get anywhere.
- [22:36]
Rhea Wong
Yeah. Let's go back to that. Because I think that what you said was so important, because I think, look, we all have stories of being badly treated by a donor because I think with the money, there is a power dynamic. And it's almost like I get to treat you too badly because I have a dynamic. And I think that abundance tells us that there are more than enough donors out there and that we don't need to sacrifice ourselves. Now, of course, I'm not saying, like, you should take a front at every single little thing. That's not what I'm saying, and I don't think that's what you're saying. But I do think we have to have the courage of our convictions and also the support of our leadership. This is not a person who respects me and my boundaries and like, does it look like someone else deals with them? Does it look like we say we just don't need your money? But to me, everything is energy. Like, the older I get, the more I'm like, I don't want to deal with people who don't match my energy. And if you're like, suck on my energy. You gotta go.
- [23:37]
Unknown Speaker
You gotta go.
- [23:38]
Anessa
Protect self. Protect self. That's right. Absolutely agree with that.
- [23:43]
Rhea Wong
And I think when you find the right donors who are walking in partnership with you, it feels good, it feels generative, it feels energetic versus, like, energy vampires. Like, we've all been around energy vampires, where after you deal with them, you're just like, I feel I need a nap. I can't.
- [23:59]
Anessa
Yeah, I've definitely had those experiences and they put a damper on the rest of your day. But it's like we mentioned, it's really. We hear this all the time now, this whole boundary stuff, but it really is knowing how to work with different people is the ticket.
- [24:15]
Rhea Wong
Yeah, it's the ticket.
- [24:16]
Anessa
While protecting yourself. Yeah.
- [24:18]
Rhea Wong
I think the other thing too is when I came up as a fundraiser, there was definitely this idea of the donor's always like. So it's like bending over backwards to do all of the things. And I think that there's a distinction I'm going to make here between what I think of as donor centric fundraising, which is that you really do have to think about the donor experience and what's in it for them. And. And I think like a toxic experience of the white saviorism. Oh, little big you, little me. Like, how tow to you because you have the money and I'm going to do all the things. I'm like, that's not what I'm Talking about. But I am saying that you have to be sensitive to why people give and that you want to create an experience that feels good for them because they're doing amazing things. So how do you thread that needle?
- [25:08]
Anessa
Say a little bit more?
- [25:09]
Rhea Wong
Yeah. I'm wondering how you think about being open and nurturing, if you will, to your donor's experience without tipping into, like, toxic white saviorism.
- [25:22]
Anessa
Yeah. Yeah, that's a good question. Because then it's also this conversation about authenticity, too, of you wanting to really lean into your own purpose of why you're here, who you are as a person. And then we all know the term code switching and needing to turn on. And there's a lot of that in this work, whether it's racial code switching or otherwise. And so it could be really exhausting. So to have someone who is a difficult, demanding donor is not abnormal, but also extra exhausting because we're already dealing with all these other things. I just learned the term code switching recovery. I didn't know that was a thing. Then when you get home and you finally just get to just relax and chill out and just get back into your full, authentic selves, it's just a shame we can't bring that person to work, because we shouldn't have to try to figure out how to work with these difficult donors. But unfortunately, we do. I just try. We're from Jersey Rhea. We try to keep it real. And I feel blessed that in this area, at least, a lot of our donors appreciate that. So it's finding the tact and the diplomatic way to do things. Even doing that can be exhausting sometimes. Right. Trying to think through your words. All that's a lot of work, but we do it for the good of the cause, and we hope that we are getting them to a place of saying, this isn't necessarily about me and you, Mr. Mrs. Them donor. It's about what we're trying to accomplish here. So how can we together get to that endpoint? What is it? What does that look like to you? And then how can I escort you there? How can I be the guide to that and just try to keep that drilled in and keep that as the lane that we're going down?
- [27:04]
Rhea Wong
Yeah, yeah. You were saying something, and I had such an interesting. The thing is, whether you like it or not, we're all in customer service. Yeah, we're in customer service. And I just like, you're right. We. You can resent that or you can acknowledge like, this is what the job is now, being in customer service. Doesn't mean that you get to be a doormat. It doesn't mean that you get beat up on you. But it does mean that, like, you have to think about the customer donor experience. Otherwise, like, they'll take their business elsewhere. And I think that's important. But the other thing I want to say is sometimes when things go right, it's so easy to internalize it and make it about you. And I screwed up. I'm bad at this job. I said something dumb. The truth is, like, some people are going to look for a reason to be upset.
- [27:58]
Anessa
Yes.
- [27:59]
Rhea Wong
And my approach is always just, okay, what can I learn from this? What did I do that I can learn from, do differently, et cetera. But also, it's not about me, it's not personal. And so I'm wondering, can you share an experience of, okay, like, maybe we just have to, like, bless and release. I did what I could do, but I. It's not personal.
- [28:19]
Anessa
The other day. And I've been doing this work for a few years now. And so I'll just say there, there. No one I think outgrows. There will always be moments for everybody. Right. We're all constantly evolving. So I don't think anybody ever has it fully figured out. And sometimes you have to check in with yourself. The other day I was trying to get a sponsorship from a colleague of mine in the industry who were very close. And I thought, okay, of all the sponsorships we're going to get for this activity, this one's a shoo in. And it took a couple of weeks of going back and forth just because they were going to a conference and what have you, Long story short, didn't get it. They were like, not this time. And I don't know if it was just a culmination of that week of no's that I had gotten or received, and it came down on me and I'm like, girl, how are you going to continue to be able to lead for these organizations? And you can't secure this one little gift that that's your friend. And I just went down this spiral before I had to catch myself. What are we doing here? Do? It's not about you. There are so many different variables that could have led to that no. And it could have just been simply wrong time, as we know, wrong time, wrong place. They're going through something. They don't literally don't have the budget, they're in a bad mood. Who knows? But why am I internalizing this? I agree with you that there are times where we should evaluate and say, okay, did I do everything that was best practice? Did I do everything that I think could have been done with this donor focused on the mission? Once you say yes, that's it, move on. It can be. Rejection is hard for everybody.
- [29:51]
Rhea Wong
Yeah. And no one wants to be rejected. But.
- [29:54]
Anessa
No, but it's. It's the game. It's the part of the game here and we know the statistics of it. You have to be constantly asking because you're going to get more nos than yeses and so keep that mind frame that you're not always going to get a yes. It's not about you. There's. You ever heard of that book the Four Agreements?
- [30:13]
Rhea Wong
Yeah. I love it. Take nothing personally. No, take it personally.
- [30:17]
Anessa
Nothing personally.
- [30:19]
Rhea Wong
Yeah.
- [30:19]
Anessa
And it's relieving when you take on that mindset as opposed to constantly evaluating what's wrong with me, what did I. What did announce it do wrong? What did Ria. I didn't wear the right lipstick today. Yeah. Beautiful, real lipstick. It's better when it's. Hey, even if it is about. It's not about me.
- [30:34]
Rhea Wong
It's not about me. And I feel like, yeah, I feel like it's so hard because we all want to like make people happy and we want to be good at our jobs and all the things, but sometimes like some parts are not about you. I'll just give you a silly example. Like today there was some kind of miscommunication with someone who wanted to book a phone call. Whatever. Like it. Something admin happened and she sends me an email and she was like, I would took so long to book this call. You've just broken my trust. And like I'm unsubscribing to everything. And I was like, okay, yeah. I was like, thank you for telling me and I'm sorry that this was not a great experience. Like, obviously that's not what we want to have happen. But also that's it.
- [31:13]
Anessa
That's it.
- [31:13]
Rhea Wong
Look, I'm a human and sometimes like I make mistakes. I know that my.
- [31:18]
Anessa
Absolutely.
- [31:19]
Rhea Wong
And if you want to extend grace, do it. And if not, like that's not on me.
- [31:26]
Anessa
And another reframe is that someone I necessarily want to work with because they may not be as open minded and empathetic to receiving my wisdom or guidance anyway. Right.
- [31:38]
Rhea Wong
Yeah, yeah, no, exactly. Like the world tells you the. It attracts the kind of people that you need to be around. So 100%. It's almost like a. When I was dating and it'd be like, oh, this Guy, like, doesn't like me. And it's. Why would I want to date someone who doesn't like me?
- [31:51]
Anessa
That's exactly it. I'll tell you another quick story. Similarly, we have. I had a donor who I'd been working with over the years and hadn't seen them for a while in Covid. I said, okay, we need to get back together. Went to lunch. I brought one of my staff members with me, and for whatever reason, they were just very. Not as warm to me as normal, but they were hitting it off with my staff member. My goodness, they were just connecting to the T. And I was like, that's weird. Went out, took them out. Another time, maybe a month later, same thing happened. And instead of taking a person, I'm like, hey, this shifted there. I checked in with my staff member. I'm like, I think she said, I think we just connect. They had certain things in common and they were just really connecting on those certain things. Okay, guess who's lead on that account now.
- [32:36]
Rhea Wong
Yeah, it just takes it off your plate.
- [32:38]
Anessa
Yeah. It's like dating. It's whenever we meet people in the real world, you're not going to mesh with everybody. Everybody's not for everybody. And that is okay.
- [32:45]
Rhea Wong
Yeah.
- [32:46]
Anessa
Yeah.
- [32:47]
Rhea Wong
All right, I got last two last questions. I know we could chop it up forever, but I'm listening to you and it sounds like it might be interesting but also maybe really hard to be a fundraiser. So what advice would you have to all like the little baby rias and anesses out here listening? I want to career like Anessa's. I don't know. Is this for me? How can I stick it out? What advice would you give to those folks?
- [33:10]
Anessa
How to stick it out. Normalize. It's so cliche, but let's go with it. Self care and sustainability. Because sustainability is a professional competency. Boundaries are leadership. Being able to do that, you're modeling that for everybody around you and you're protecting yourself in order to keep doing the work. Check in with yourself regularly that you're still passionate about this work, that you can still handle it. I encourage everybody to be seeking outside counseling and therapy and a provider. Do whatever works for you to make sure that you're constantly checking in with your mental health is my bag. And I have therapy every Wednesday at 5, religiously. And I also have a career coach I check in with once a month. This my support system. And I have a peer circle. And when I feel like I need an area of support in a specific topic, I go seek It. And that's how you and I came together. Be proactive about caring for yourself. Be proactive about your future. When I came into this, it was one of my seniors that said to me, I think this is an area for you. And I didn't know nothing about it. I knew a little bit about what. Like I told you, I didn't really want to be a part of this. I didn't realize that it's way more than just asking for a donation. There's so much more to it. But I took the time to learn. I still take courses. And you have to constantly invest in yourself while finding those boundaries. Go to that therapy. Do not skip that Pilates class, or you'll be like me on a podcast with three with a frog in your throat. Because it's catching up with you, Right? So you just have to keep checking in with yourself and make sure when you lose the passion for this work, you shouldn't be doing it, in my opinion, anymore.
- [34:49]
Rhea Wong
Yeah.
- [34:50]
Anessa
Constantly saying, am I still connected to this mission? Am I connected to this culture, this organization? Is this what I want to be doing? Some. Maybe I'm an introvert. Sometimes engaging too much can be overwhelming, exhausting for me. If I don't balance it the right way over time, that might change. You said, right now I only want to be around good energy. That's right. We were willing 10, 15 years ago to sacrifice whatever in order to do, be around ugly people, ugly energy, in order to get where, not no more. And that's what we've chosen to do. So five years from now, I may not want to be doing this. And that takes constant checking in, being honest with yourself, and taking care of yourself.
- [35:29]
Rhea Wong
Wow, that sounds so emotionally healthy. Anessa, well done. Well done.
- [35:33]
Anessa
Love this work. Right?
- [35:34]
Rhea Wong
We do love this work. I mean, it's not. It's easy all. Every single day. But net. Net, I'm like, I can't imagine doing anything different. Like, I. I love.
- [35:43]
Anessa
I.
- [35:43]
Rhea Wong
Well, I love supporting fundraisers like you. So let's talk about that, because I know there are folks who are listening to this who have been maybe thinking about working with me, and I haven't prepped you on this at all. Can you speak very candidly to what was it like to work with me and what do you feel like the difference was after working with me, I.
- [36:02]
Anessa
Like, I learned very well in scenarios where things are less theoretical and more real, more tangible. Here's what works. Here's what we know what works. And that's your teaching style. Let's get in. What's the problem? And let's talk very specifically about the best ways that I've known over years have worked to solve it. That's what I like to do. Like when I used to go to church, I didn't enjoy the churches who would just speak very theoretically about I love thy neighbor. It's more, what does that look like? What are we, what should we be doing very specifically to ensure that we're loving thy neighbor, that we're moving this work forward. And working with you is very clear in that aspect. And so I really enjoyed that and I also enjoyed the community of it. Most of the time that I've worked with you, it's a part of a group where I'm learning from. I'm seeing multiple things, I'm seeing how far I've come. So in some cases it's validating because I'm like, wow, I used to ask those questions and now I'm not anymore. And in other cases, it's eye opening to say, okay, I'm not the only person dealing with this massive board issue or. Right. Or I really need to focus more on this major donor aspect. So it's this community that you've created of people of all different levels and you make it a very comfortable space, but we leave with really concrete stuff to go back to our different groups and say, let's put this into place and see how it works for us.
- [37:20]
Rhea Wong
Yeah.
- [37:20]
Anessa
And so I encourage anyone else to absolutely do that.
- [37:24]
Rhea Wong
And is there anything that you could point to as like a specific gift or specific win that you could attribute from working with me?
- [37:30]
Anessa
Yeah, yeah. We talked earlier about the board trainings. And so I think I shared with you the other day that I got the survey back and these particular board members, we were there for two days in a board retreat covering some really awesome in depth stuff. And it was the comments in the survey that talked about, wow, you changed my perspective on fundraising, you changed my relationship with money. And you know where I got that from? You, from your money mindset thing. And so I had to share that with you because it is going to be so impactful. It's ripple effects, Rio. As we learn from you, we're teaching others who are changing organizations that are on the ground doing the work. And so we're changing philanthropy through your guidance and guidance of others like you. So it's important that you continue to get out there and everybody else gets our voice out there. Stay authentic with who we are because your voices are needed and you never know by whom? Who's listening and who needs it. But it helps.
- [38:29]
Rhea Wong
Thank you for saying that, Anessa, but you are such a talented fundraiser in your own right and a talented leader, and I just, I'm on a mission to change philanthropy. I'm so glad you said that because I think the way that philanthropy has been done traditionally just doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel right, it doesn't feel aligned. And I just feel like if we have a different approach, a different mindset, a different energy to it, we could change the world. So thank you for being part of the change.
- [38:55]
Anessa
I love it. Thank you for having me. This was really fun.
- [38:59]
Rhea Wong
And folks, if you want your board trained up and you want to have Anessa do her magic, I'm going to put your information in the show notes. Where can folks get in touch with you? Is LinkedIn the best way or.
- [39:11]
Anessa
Absolutely. Love LinkedIn. I'm very responsive there. Yeah, let's connect on LinkedIn.
- [39:15]
Rhea Wong
Okay, cool. So if you all are looking to train up your board, call Anessa Holder. She will whip them into shape.
- [39:22]
Anessa
Yes. Thank you.
- [39:23]
Rhea Wong
All right, thanks, friend. We'll see you soon.
- [39:26]
Anessa
All right, Ria, that's you. Bye bye.
- [39:28]
Rhea Wong
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