#349- Fundraising Across Generation Divides with Connor Kirkpatrick

Summary

Nonprofit Lowdown Episode #349: Fundraising Across Generation Divides with Connor Kirkpatrick

Release Date: August 4, 2025
Host: Rhea Wong
Guest: Connor Kirkpatrick, Director of Development at Book Harvest

In episode #349 of "Nonprofit Lowdown," host Rhea Wong sits down with Connor Kirkpatrick, the Director of Development at Book Harvest, to discuss effective fundraising strategies across different generations. The conversation delves into Connor’s experiences, the impact of Rhea’s Big Ask Gift program, the significance of data-driven approaches, building a culture of philanthropy, overcoming age-related challenges in fundraising, and innovative methods for donor engagement.

About Connor Kirkpatrick

Connor Kirkpatrick brings a wealth of experience to Book Harvest, a North Carolina-based nonprofit dedicated to fostering literacy among children. Having participated in Rhea Wong’s Big Ask Gift program two years prior, Connor shares how the program has been instrumental in shaping his approach to fundraising and relationship-building.

Connor Kirkpatrick [03:37]: "The tools that I learned from you, Rhea, through your program have really prepared me to generate, talk and build relationships with people that want to invest in this exciting work."

Book Harvest: Mission and Growth

Connor provides an overview of Book Harvest’s mission: “books for every child, support for every parent, and literacy for every community.” Founded in 2011 by Ginger Young, the organization has grown remarkably, distributing over 2.5 million books across North Carolina with an annual budget of approximately $7.3 million.

Connor Kirkpatrick [02:37]: "Book Harvest was born out of a garage full of 10,000 books, and now, fast forward over a decade later, we've given out 2.5 million books across the state."

Big Ask Gift Program vs. CFRE

Rhea explores the differences between her Big Ask Gift program and the Certified Fund Raising Executive (CFRE) certification. Connor highlights that while CFRE focuses on ethical fundraising and traditional best practices, Rhea’s program equips fundraisers with robust business skills essential for building major gifts programs and fostering high-level relationships.

Connor Kirkpatrick [04:11]: "What you teach, Rhea, is strong business skills of what it takes to actually build your major gifts program from the ground up. And that is invaluable."

Tangible Results from Coaching

Connor attributes significant growth in Book Harvest’s fundraising metrics to Rhea’s coaching. The organization has increased its major donors from eight to a target of 24, aiming to raise one million dollars in new individual gifts within the year.

Connor Kirkpatrick [05:35]: "A couple years ago, before I joined this organization, we started at eight major donors. This year we have a goal of 24 major donors, and we are on track to reach that goal."

Data-Driven Development: Metrics and CRM

The discussion shifts to the importance of data in fundraising. Connor emphasizes the use of the Virtuous CRM system, praising its integration with donor search and engagement tracking. Key data points include philanthropic history, alignment with organization values, and donor capacity. Engagement metrics such as email opens, clicks, and event attendance are also crucial.

Connor Kirkpatrick [07:10]: "The best data is the conversation with the donor. Sometimes to get to that place, we need to look at factors and do our research to build a holistic viewpoint."

Building a Culture of Philanthropy

Connor explains how Book Harvest has cultivated a culture where everyone, including program staff, is actively engaged in fundraising. This integrated approach ensures fundraising is viewed as essential for program growth and effectiveness.

Connor Kirkpatrick [12:24]: "Bringing those two things together, growth and building an exceptional program has made program leaders realize the value of understanding the full equation, including the resource side."

Overcoming Age-Related Obstacles in Fundraising

Addressing generational divides, Connor discusses the initial challenges of appearing youthful in a field dominated by older donors. He emphasizes the importance of competence and relationship-building to mitigate biases related to age.

Connor Kirkpatrick [16:52]: "People may have an initial objection based on my age, but it subsides when they meet me and see my competence and genuine interest."

Strategies for Donor Engagement Across Generations

Rhea and Connor share innovative strategies for engaging donors from different age groups. They discuss the effectiveness of traditional methods like handwritten letters and lumpy mail, as well as modern approaches such as personalized video messages. Connor highlights the success of sending books as part of acknowledgment and utilizing services like Handwritten to scale personalized communication.

Connor Kirkpatrick [22:53]: "At Book Harvest, we send people a book in the mail for year-end appeals, which has been a highly engaging and effective approach."

Modernizing Communication: Lumpy Mail and Video Messages

Rhea emphasizes creative communication strategies to capture donor attention amidst digital overload. She advocates for "lumpy mail" and personalized video messages as ways to stand out.

Rhea Wong [21:27]: "Send a letter handwritten on the envelope, put a little something to make it bumpy to generate curiosity."

Rhea Wong [23:02]: "Take a quick video, personalize it, and send it via text or email to connect authentically."

Connor concurs, noting the importance of multiple touchpoints to truly thank donors and build lasting relationships.

Connor Kirkpatrick [24:12]: "I think somebody told me recently a donor needs to be thanked seven times to actually get the feeling that they have been thanked."

Thoughtful Language in DEI Initiatives

The conversation turns to the sensitivity around DEI (Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion) language in nonprofit marketing. Connor discusses Book Harvest’s approach to articulating their mission without the politically charged abbreviations, opting instead for clear, individual terms to communicate inclusivity effectively.

Connor Kirkpatrick [35:28]: "When we spell it out and talk about each word—diversity, equity, inclusion—it helps avoid the politicized nature of abbreviations like DEI."

Closing Advice for Aspiring Fundraisers

Ending on a personal note, Connor offers advice to those starting their careers in fundraising. He emphasizes the importance of owning mistakes, being vulnerable, and knowing oneself to lead authentically and effectively.

Connor Kirkpatrick [37:20]: "Know thyself, spend time to figure yourself out, and lead with an open heart."

Conclusion

Rhea wraps up the episode by highlighting the valuable insights shared by Connor Kirkpatrick. The discussion underscores the importance of bridging generational gaps in fundraising, leveraging data and personal connections, and maintaining thoughtful communication strategies. The episode offers a comprehensive look at evolving nonprofit fundraising tactics and the essential skills needed to navigate them successfully.

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This summary captures the essence of the podcast episode, including all key topics, insightful discussions, and memorable quotes with appropriate timestamps. It is structured with clear sections to ensure readability and usefulness for those who haven't listened to the episode.

Transcript

[Rhea Wong]

Hey, you. It's Rhea Wong. If you're listening to nonprofit Load On, I'm pretty sure that you'd love my weekly newsletter. Every Tuesday morning, you get updates on the newest podcast episodes. And then interspersed, we have fun special invitations for newsletter subscribers only and fundraising inspo, because I know what it feels like to be in the trenches alone. On top of that, you get cute dog photos. Best of all, it is free. So what are you waiting for? Head over to riawong.com now to sign up Foreign. Welcome to nonprofit Lowdown. I'm your host, Rhea Wong. Hey, podcast listeners, it's Rhea Wong with you once again with nonprofit Lowdown. So you might notice, if you're a regular listener, that we've been doing these fun interviews with folks who have been through my program. I consider them friends. They're in the family. It's kind of like being in the mafia. Once you're in, you're in for life. I am delighted because my guest today is Connor Kirkpatrick. He is the director of development at Book Harvest. And, Connor, I think you went to the program two years ago. Was that right?

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

That's right, yeah.

[Rhea Wong]

Excellent. Connor, welcome to the show.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

Thank you so much, Rhea. It is always a joyful day when I get to hang out and talk shop with you.

[Rhea Wong]

You sweet talker, you. All right, Connor, you. Actually, when we first started working together, you were at a different organization. Now you are the. The director of development at Book Harvest in the beautiful state of North Carolina. So tell us a little bit about what y' all do down at Book Harvest. See you like y'. All. I just added that for you.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

Thank you so much. It's sweeter. The tea is sweeter, and the biscuits are butterier down here.

[Rhea Wong]

Oh, yeah. Side note, I just have to say, I'm, like, newly in love with North Carolina thanks to Parker Posey a la White Lotus. You have good vats. You not boo.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

I was. I was at first, so. This is so offensive. And then my colleague was like, connor, you sound just like her. And I was like, what? I'm a big fan. I've come around on it. I think Parker Posey. Posey is giving us the recognition we deserve. My cat's also around. If I need to put her up, I should.

[Rhea Wong]

Oh, no. We love Cameo. All right, this is a little Parker Posey fandom. Parker Posey, if you're listening to this, we love you, and you should come on the show because you have good values.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

That is a good Southern accent.

[Rhea Wong]

Thank you. It's because I'M a Buddhist in China. I get. It's too much. All right, let's talk about the tsunami.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

So Book Harvest. I work. I'm the director of development at Book Harvest, and our mission is books for every child, support for every parent, and literacy for every community. And we were started in 2011 by our founder and CEO, Ginger Young, who basically gathered her friends and was like, hey, y', all, I want to give my books to kids who could benefit from them in our community. And suddenly, her garage was full with 10,000 books because everyone got the word, and Book Harvest was born. And now, fast forward over a decade later. We've given out 2.5 million books across the state of North Carolina. We have a budget of about 7.3 million this year, which is really exciting. We have several programs that integrate into hospital systems, into school systems, and we're just on the cusp of incredible growth. And so I've joined this organization as the director of development. And the tools that I learned from you, ria, through your program have really prepared me to generate, talk and build relationships with people that want to invest in this exciting work.

[Rhea Wong]

Oh, my God. That sounds like a tsunami of books. It's all about me. Okay, Connor, I would love to talk about all of the good work you're doing, but let's just talk about me for a second. I know you went through the program two years ago, and actually, what's interesting is I know you have a cfre, and I'm often asked by people, if I have a cfre, do I really need to take your program? So I'm just curious, from your perspective, what did you learn in my program that you perhaps did not learn at the cfre?

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, I think the cfre, one of the most important things that that teaches you is that how to be an ethical fundraiser and abide by the donor bill of rights and some of these more kind of textbook fundraising old school methods of best practices. I think what you teach, ria, is strong business skills of what it takes to actually build your major gifts program from the ground up. And that is invaluable. You have a community, and every so often, we would get together and I got to share the things that I was learning and struggling with and get feedback and be poured into as a leader. And I also just learned the real relationship skills of building my program from that lens of how to build high relationships with people for the purpose of empowering our fundraising programs. So that's what I would say in a snapshot.

[Rhea Wong]

Okay, cool. Let me just ask you this one last question to talk all about me. But if folks who are listening and they've been considering applying to the Big Ask Gift program, are there any tangible numbers or results that you can point to that say, hey, this Riaperson sounds great, but actually, at the end of the day, I want to see the numbers. Show me the money, honey. So what could you point to as far as results that you could directly attribute to the coaching that you received?

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

Yeah. So I think for myself, I've begun to view the work I do and touching Donors lives through stewardship and cultivation and solicitation. All of those points I've been impacted. And overall, the organizations that I have worked for, I have seen tremendous growth in terms of individual fundraising metrics. And a couple years ago, before I joined this organization, we started at eight major donors. And this year we have a goal of 24 major donors. And we are on track to reach that goal this year through implementing things like a qualification survey as your program outlines. And so we're really excited. Our goal this year is to raise a million in new individual gifts, and we are on track to do that.

[Rhea Wong]

That is awesome. So the survey strategy is working for you?

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, we're ready to deploy it and start breaking down these doors and having real authentic conversations and build relationships with our incredible supporters.

[Rhea Wong]

I love that so much. Thank you for sharing that, Connor. All right, let's get into some data details because I know you're a very data driven person. I'm just curious. You know, we have a couple strategies that we deploy. Things like the community dinners, pre qualification, complete qualification, walking people through a clear cultivation plan. But I'm curious, what, when we say a data driven development department, what does that mean to you and what are the specific data points that you're looking at on a regular basis to inform your activities and actions?

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

Yeah. So I think the three things that I'm always looking for in terms of qualifying somebody who that I should be paying attention to, or a donor who might be somebody who could really make a transformative investment in the work that I do and fundraise for is I'm looking for their. Are they philanthropic? Do they give money? Do they have a history of giving? Are they aligned with what I'm doing? Do they care about, for me, literacy? And the third thing is, do they have capacity? Different folks are at different stages in their life. And for those who are about to send their kid to college versus being an empty nester and retired, the timing of that matters in their life and their readiness of Whether they're ready to give. I'm always looking at those factors. The best data is the conversation with the donor. Sometimes to get to that place, we need to look at some of the factors and do our research on folks to understand and position ourselves in the best conversations to do that. Relationship cultivation.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah, yeah. And I imagine too. So this is the perennial question everyone always asks, like, what CRM system do you use? And I think CRMs are only as good as the data that you put in and the data that you update. And so just annoyingly, I'm going to ask you, what CRM are you using and what about it are you finding helpful?

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

Yeah. So we are using Virtuous.

[Rhea Wong]

Interesting.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

And it's a. I'm a big fan of it.

[Rhea Wong]

Really. I think you're the first person I've ever talked to who likes their CRM system. Say more.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

It is, I think they really did their research on what development shops need to run. It integrates with donor search. So something I can do is when I can, anytime I create a new donor in my database, I can create an automation that it's going to automatically run a donor search on that person, attach that prospect research to their profile and flag. For me, hey, this is somebody that you should pay attention to. Something else I really like about it is I can look at a map and I can see where my donors in relationship to each other. So I could plan a destination event in Washington D.C. and invite all my donors who have addresses in that city and can see where they are there. I really like Virtuous. I think what's different about Virtuous is their records are based on who. Who receives the tax benefit from their donation. And that's how it's organized. And so it's a database that's I think, designed and nuanced and powerful enough to do all the things I needed to do. And I've really enjoyed it.

[Rhea Wong]

Okay. All right. So, you know, we're going to get someone on Virtuous on this podcast to talk about that. One thing I'm curious about is when you think about metrics, certainly the wealth screen and wealth data is a data point. Are you also looking at engagement data? So, for example, people who open your emails, people who click on your emails, people who come to events, people who are friends of anything like that.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, absolutely. So that's the other thing about Virtuous is it integrates with our mail and mail email campaigns. And so on every contact page, I can see when they opened, when they clicked, I can see Those engagement rates. And then I think integrating that with the qualification survey, looking at those data points to understand and build a holistic viewpoint of how warm is this person and to our organization. And that's always fun when I can see that, oh, they've been a volunteer. Oh, they've been to an event recently. This person is really ready for an introduction to our CEO and to take the next step of investing in our organization in a big way.

[Rhea Wong]

Let me ask you this, Connor. How big is your team?

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

So we have a team of. I have to think about it. I just onboarded a new team member, which is lovely. So we have a team of five. And then I would say something about Book Harvest. Is our team really? Everyone is really strong at cultivating relationships and thinking like a fundraiser, even those who are serving in programmatic roles. And that culture of fundraising that kind of is embedded in the organization across the leadership is really powerful. It feels like I work on a much bigger team because people understand what we're doing and they understand relationship cultivation techniques.

[Rhea Wong]

I love that. I'm wondering if you can click into that a little bit more for me, because I definitely know one of the most common challenges is that there can be silos in organization. And I find I'm not trying to, like, trash talk program people, but I sometimes think it's often program people that have the most aversion to thinking about fundraising. It's, oh, it's dirty somehow, or like, that's not my department. And so I'm curious how you all were able to really develop this culture of philanthropy within your organization.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

Yeah. So I must give credit to our founder and the team members that came before me here because I think there's this understanding that in order to reach more children and families and have more effective programs, we have got to grow and we've got to cultivate the resources to do that. And so this commitment to excellence and building relationships and being community driven in the work, and that includes both the children and families that we serve and partner with and are building home libraries and our donors who care about literacy and want to see a world where every kid can access literacy and justice for all. And so bringing those two things together, I think growth and wanting to build an exceptional and excellent program has made program leaders really realize the value of, okay, if I want to make this program the best it can be, I've got to understand the full equation of what makes that possible. And that includes the resource side of that equation. And how can I play my part to tell the story to that part of the equation so that I'm getting what I need to be effective here.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah, that's powerful. And the one thing that I would recommend that everybody does, if you're listening to this, is to have some really frank conversations with people about money. Because I often think this narrative that we have about money can often be the blocker for people engaging in fundraising. We all have stories. Oh, money is the root of all evil. Or it's not. It's dirty somehow to talk about money. Or we all, or people with money are different and they're bad and corrupt. We all have a million stories. But if we don't actually talk about the stories, if we don't actually put it on the table to examine it and decide intelligently if it's a story that serves us or if it's a story we want to let go of, then like, we just carry these stories inside of us unexamined. And I have a training for that, actually. So money mindset training.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

And let me just say that I love the money mindset training because it's true. We all have our own relationship with money. And for my new team members, it's one of the very first conversations. Conversations I have is what's your relationship to money? How will that affect your ability to engage authentically with people and asking them for money and engaging in philanthropy?

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah, yeah. And it's almost like you can't be a really great fundraiser until you unpack that for yourself and really examine your own stories, your own biases, your own limiting beliefs. So double click on all of that. Let me transition to something, because this is something that you and I have talked about before, which is for folks who are watching this online, Connor is a very handsome man. He looks like he's barely out of college. Obviously you. You are a little. Have a little bit more seasoning than that, but you're still young and fresh. And I'm just curious because the nature of the work is often working with folks who are older, generally 50 and up. Maybe they've made their money, maybe they're retired, maybe they've raised their families and are empty nesters, as you said. So I'm just really curious with how you have thought about or approached donors knowing that you do. Look, I had the same thing. I was, I looked young for a really long time. And when I was actually in my 20s, when I was young, it was even harder because I looked like I was about 17. Actually, a funny story, I was once bringing a group of my kids to. To college. For a college tour. And one of the moms of the prospective students, like, leans over, so are you thinking about applying too? And I was like, lady, I'm 30.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

That's sweet.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah. I was like, oh, bless your heart. Bless your heart. No, but I think it really was as. As nice as it was to be like, I look young. I also think that there was a little bit of. It was a little bit of an obstacle. Right. Because I do think there was this kind of assumption about, I'm young, I look young, can I really be taken seriously? Is this a person I'm going to write a six or seven figure check to? So I'm just curious, from your perspective, has that been an obstacle in any way for you?

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, I will say I think I have benefited in my life from incredible youth leadership development and programs that believe that young people are capable and deserve to be at the table where decision making happens and can and will be the leaders that are going to change the world to be what we need it to be. And that has always infused me with a spirit of boldness and curiosity in the work I do that I think has served me really well. So I think it is an objection that people may have when they first meet me, but it's something that I think subsides when they meet me and I have the chance to speak with them and ask them questions and peel back the layers, just show who I am, being the curious person I am and ask the questions I do. And then something that you've said, Ria, is following up like a beast. And I think showing competence. People really value warmth and competence. And so those things I have always tried to lead. And I think people really, when they see me operate as a fundraiser in those ways, they see this person is somebody who's incredibly competent. What he does is somebody I'm interested in speaking with and can help me have a better relationship to my giving that feels meaningful of where I'm putting my dollars. And so I think age in many ways, like many of the demographic traits that we have, it is a barrier if we are not doing the work to understand how they are and showing up in the ways that we can.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah. The one thing that I will say, and this is for all the younger friend racers out there, is I think it's important to have the empathy to step outside of your own perspective and out of your own frames of reference. So I'll give you an example. I know that for a lot of folks who are younger, they will rely very heavily on digital right Though. Oh, I sent the email. I commented on LinkedIn, Whatever it may be, not necessarily recognizing that folks of different generations may have different relationships to technology. And so I think when you default to say email, you're not taking into account the fact that, like, my mom is a boomer, she can't figure out her email. She. And she also doesn't check it regularly because she's retired. And so I think there's this assumption that people have a relationship to technology that is exactly the same as my relationship to technology. Like, I check my email obsessively every day. My mom checks our email maybe once a week, if that. And I think as fundraisers, we assume, oh, they're not getting my email or they're ignoring me or something else. Whereas consider using a different mode. Consider, I don't know, kids picking up the phone. I know it's crazy, but the phone actually works for phone calls, too. Who knew?

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, I leave a lot of voicemails, and occasionally I get a text back or occasionally somebody will call me back. And then I get to have a great conversation. And I learned so much. I think connection is it. And like, however we can connect, that is the best way that we can. And for some people, that is the phone. And I have had to get over my. A lot of people are like, oh, Gen Z is so scared of. They'll do anything but make a phone call. I've got to get over that. I have. And I still stumble a little bit, but I make it through. And people are genuinely generally understanding.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah. The other thing is, I think we get ahead when we zig as other people are zagging. So at the time, like, right now, I think we're just being flooded by all kinds of email. All kinds of, like, the spam tax are out of control. And I'm like, if everyone's doing that, why don't we just go old school and send mail? So one of my favorite strategies is lumpy mail. Send a letter handwritten on the envelope, because if it looks like it's printed, I just think it's junk. But put a little something to make it bumpy so that I actually have curiosity what's in there? And also, by the way, if something is lumpy, you can't put it on the bottom of a stack of mail because it will fall over. So, pro tip, for anybody who's trying to get someone's attention, write a letter. Your mama was right. Write an actual letter using a pen and put in something lumpy.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

I have done that every year since you told me to do that. Rhea. We've seen tremendous growth. And at Book Harvest, we send people a book in the mail, which is really fun. And end of year appeals. I think it's a really special thing we do for donors. It's something I hear people are like, what are you. What are you going to send this year? It's a fun, really engaging thing. But I sit in front of Netflix because that was your recommendation, and I get my pen and we crank out those addressed envelopes.

[Rhea Wong]

I know. Oh, my gosh. I love when people listen to me. Here's the thing. I have had students be like, oh, I don't have time to do that. And you only have a list of a thousand people, Right? And I'm like, listen, first of all, do you like money? Because if you like money, you should write those envelopes. But I'm like, you can bang that out in a weekend. Watching Netflix. Like, I used to literally bring stacks home around annual appeal time and just till my hand was about to fall off. That's right. Honestly, to do. To scale, sometimes you have to do things that don't scale. Scale, like handwriting.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

Well. And that personal touch. People really notice it. And I will say our list is now like 4,000, which has become a little. We've used volunteers up until now. This. We're just now sending our impact report out and we're actually looking at the service called Handwritten that we're trying. It's H A N D. Yeah, yeah.

[Rhea Wong]

We'Ve talked about them on the show.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

Oh, great. We just got our notes in and I was very impressed with them. And it is a way to scale that up. And we're having fun trying it.

[Rhea Wong]

Connor, I got one word for you. Automation. You can set up a zap for when let's say a donation of a certain size comes in, zap it to handwritten and it'll auto send a handwritten note.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

Very cool. I'm having so much fun. It's open the world, that and AI. It's like, wow. We live in an incredible age with many tools and we should use them.

[Rhea Wong]

The other thing that I've really been very bullish on, again, this is a pro tip for folks is, look, we all know it's very hard to get people on the phone, right? I get it. But here's the thing. We all have these incredible devices in our pocket that also take video. So what I've been suggesting that people do is take a quick video, personalize it. Hey, Connor, Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Send the video either via text or via email. And it takes two seconds to do. And I think it gets people's attention because everyone is on the email train. They're doing texts. Like when people say, you got a zag. So what's the zag here?

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

It's really interesting. Yeah. And you're like, selfie mode, recording this with your face on it. Is that right?

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah, yeah. You don't have to get, like, technical about it. Like, you're taking your dog for a walk and you're like, hey, Connor, blah, blah, blah. Thanks for this. Hey, my favorite book. Yada, yada. Send. Because the thing that I think people are really craving right these days is they're craving positivity. They're craving authenticity. They're craving connection. And how special would it be if, like, I knew that Connor, who is a busy guy, took two minutes out of his day to do a special video for me? Like, it's incredible. Now, I'm not saying that automatically assumes that you're going to get a gift, but it certainly increases the likelihood if I actually pay attention to you.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, it's, like, very cool to think about. And I think I want to be doing more of these touch points. I think somebody told me recently a donor needs to be thanked seven times to actually get the feeling that they have been thanked. And nonprofits are constant, consistently underthinking, and tools like that is like, a perfect opportunity to expand the number of ways. And I think so often we just rely on the old acknowledgement letter, which serves a great and important purpose. But how can we be creative?

[Rhea Wong]

It's necessary, but insufficient. Because I think in some people's minds, they're like, oh, they got the tax letter. Thank you. And I was like, that's not a thank you. That's a tax acknowledgement. Right. But it said thank you, wouldn't it? I was like, yeah, it doesn't count that part. By the way, I've been talking about this a lot. Have you read the book Unreasonable Hospitality?

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

I just finished it this weekend. So great.

[Rhea Wong]

So great. I need everyone to read this book. I am trying to get Will Godara on my podcast. He's a little too fancy for me. We'll keep trying. So Will Godara or anyone who knows Will. Actually, I know someone who knows Will. And I had him call Will on my behalf, and he never responded. So I'm like, it's okay. It's okay. You know what? I am nothing if not persistent. But tell me what your takeaways from Unreasonable Hospitality work, because I have A lot of thoughts here.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

First of all, Frank Bruni is the recurring New York Times food critic character of and he lives in North Carolina now. So a little local celebrity nod. As I was reading that, I really enjoyed my big takeaways. One was the Dreamweavers in that book.

[Rhea Wong]

Totally.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

Oh, my God. I think this idea of professionals who their entire thing that they think about is how to create an experience and a journey for that is service oriented for the people we are serving. I mean, it is what we do as fundraisers.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

And I. It made me want to practice my calligraphy and get really good at handwriting.

[Rhea Wong]

That's so Meghan Markle of you.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

The other piece was around how can you do things differently and really set yourself apart? And I have been thinking about the acknowledgement letter process for my organization and we don't have to send this regular tax exempt letter. What if we designed something that was a book that told the story of Book Harvest founding and we're going to test this out and talk to an artist next week. And this is really on cutting edge work. Rhea, after listening to this book. But the idea of setting yourself apart, everyone gets an acknowledgment letter. How do you make it something special that people are like, I am feeling cared for.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

This is. I've never seen anything like this and I've never been treated this way in any other way by any other organization.

[Rhea Wong]

I know, I know. And the thing is, the bar is so low. Do you know what I mean? Like, people are not very good. And I'm like, I'm going to call myself out here too. In my mind, once I got the gift, I was like, cool, close the gift onto the next. Right. But the mistake is in the donor's mind. They're just starting the relationship and meanwhile you're on to the next. And so how are we actually. What's that phrase? Like, they'll forget what you said, they'll forget what you did, but they'll never forget the way you made them feel. And so how can we make people feel that giving is a special experience, that giving is joy and delight, that it's like, oh, wow, it. This was. I've been calling it the Disney moment recently. Like, how can I bring this magic feeling that I get when I visit Disney or when I go to eleven Madison Park? Actually, I tell the story about eleven Madison park because I. I've been a couple times and one birthday my husband took me because it was my birthday and on the menu, I don't even remember what we ate. Right. But on the menu, they'd printed Happy Birthday, Rhea. And then there was just the regular menu. And I remember that not because it was so simple. Right. It was like it didn't cost them anything to do, but it took someone a minute to be like, hey, let's just do this special thing. And it's these little touches that make people feel seen, make them feel special that I think really sets EMP apart. Yes. Agree with you. I love your book idea. Sounds expensive, but also amazing.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

We'll see. I'm testing it out. I'll say one example of this, the hot dog story really stands out for me from the book, too, where maybe I won't retell it, but Dirty Water dog. Yep, I will. Also, two things I wanted to say. It's not the things you say or the things you do. It's how you made them feel. Another quote by Toni Morrison, another North Carolinian. So one of.

[Rhea Wong]

I thought that was Maya Angelou.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

Sorry, you're right. It was Maya. Maya Angelou, who is the North Carolinian. And I just want to point out the North Carolina theme emerging in this episode.

[Rhea Wong]

It's because you guys have good values.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

Oh, God. The other thing is something called the poinsettia treatment, which, end of year is always a wild time for development offices. And one mentor of mine had this great idea that maybe there's a donor that they got the wrong letter or just a donor that you need to love on some more. And the idea is you bring them a poinsettia to their home and say, hey, can I drop by and just give this to you as a sign of our gratitude? And when the holidays run around. And I think that was such a lovely idea. And it's. It's such a low lift that I don't have to think about it. But it's something that when you have a poinsettia in your home, for most people, it's, oh, I'm gonna see. I'm enjoying this. And when I see this, I'm reminded of them.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah, I love that, actually. For the folks who are listening to the podcast with. We did an episode with Faith Galati. She talks about her $50,000 rum cake because every Christmas she has a list of her top donors. She makes a rum cake, a special rum cake. She says, emphasis on the rum. And she goes around Sacramento dressed up, and she delivers rum cakes. And she's. And people hand me checks. I'm like, that must be good rum cake. She's like, it is really good rum Cake. But also like the act of reaching out, asking if I can drop by. And dropping off a cake is. That's the magic. And I was like, so simple and yet effective.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

Can I give one more example that might make.

[Rhea Wong]

Please.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

When she would go to coffee meetings. I've done this a couple of times and it's like wild. The effect. You ask for their coffee order in advance and you have it waiting for them when they arrive to the meeting with you. And. Or like a food order. Just like that little step of service and hospitality. Nobody's doing that.

[Rhea Wong]

Yes, yes. Here's the thing, too. I was talking about this with my husband last night. Not about fundraising, but again, everything is about fundraising. But we're talking about, unfortunately, the state of young men. We just watch adolescence. I don't know if you watch it. It's a lot anyway. But the point is you're talking about a friend of ours who is in hospitality and he's recently single and he's going out on dates and these young women that he's going out with are like losing their minds because he does basic things like holds the door open or pulls out a chair and they're like, oh my God. And he's. This is really basic. But I think people aren't doing it.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

Yeah.

[Rhea Wong]

And so you differentiate yourself by paying attention to the little details. I'm sure you pull out. You're. You're a well mannered, brought up young man. But I'm just saying that there are, there's a lot of very low hanging fruit that we can harvest by just paying attention.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

Absolutely. And you're right, I do always hold the door open and I let's bring back silver. Chivalry. And not patriarchy, but chivalry.

[Rhea Wong]

Absolutely. You know what? I am a feminist, but I also enjoy having my door opened for me because I don't like one door slam in my face. It's rude. It's rude. Okay. We could do this forever. Last question for you. So, Connor. I know. And by the way, if this is too spicy, we don't have to talk about it. But I know that you all have been doing some thinking about how the wording on your website and your marketing has to change in light of what's happening now in the White House with respect to DEI and the language that you can and can't use. I'm curious, what did you all do? How did you think about it? What were the conversations that got you to the decision point?

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, so we, we really leaned on the expertise from our board of directors and helping guide and steer some of these conversations. So let me first start by saying, I think if you have expertise around you and on your board or people that who are tapped into and can help you think about how to best present yourself in this new moment that we're in, leaning on them is always a wise idea. And some of the guidance from our board really help form and shape our where we're going. And so I think the board's responsibilities, one of them is, maybe I'm not going to speak to this actually, but I think presenting the organization in the best light is something that the board should be considered about and more organizational leaders thinking about it together, the better. The second thing is I think our work has not changed and language really matters. And we have really decided to speak about our work of building home libraries and allowing kids to harvest books and select books and become readers in that identity as something that every child could benefit from. And so for our organization, we're talking about our programs being for all. And that is a slightly stylistic choice different from, say, using the term equity. And we've been very thoughtful about that. We're continuing to monitor. I saw Chase bank, right, just recently. They've rebranded their DEI program into Diversity Opportunity and Inclusion. And something else that one of my colleagues shared with me recently is I think any time that you're saying dei, let's be sure to say each word instead of shortening it to dei because it can get lost in the sauce and become that political thing when it's DEI can be charged. When we say diversity, when we say equity, when we say inclusion, each of those words has meaning. Put them together, shorten it. It becomes a spin that is charged in this moment.

[Rhea Wong]

Right. And very politicized.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

When we spell it out and we talk about what we mean when we're using these words, everyone can agree that these things, the work nonprofits do every day around building an incredible opportunity like flesh society for everyone that is diverse and wonderful and equitable matters.

[Rhea Wong]

Yeah, Yeah, I think you're right. I think words like DEI and woke have become very politically charged, even if people in principle agree with the concept. I think the words themselves have become. Have got. Have developed a meaning well above and beyond their actual meaning and have really become a lightning rod for all intents and purposes. So I love that. All right, Connor, last question for you. If you were thinking about little baby dod connor. Let's call it department of 10 years ago, department of defense. Connor. GI joe connor. No, little baby Director of Delvin. Connor and you're out here listening because I know we have folks of all ages and generations listening to this podcast. What advice would you give to someone just starting out in their career? Anything that you would advise, any mistakes that you made, Anything that has been an anchor for you in terms of helping you guide your career?

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

Yeah, I think, I think owning your mistakes because you're going to make them. That's the biggest thing is sometimes I've been. And when I was younger I was gripped by fear of what if somebody found out like that I hadn't done something. And instead when we are vulnerable and own what we're not good at and like that's that kind of moves you through the process of growth. It's that experience of discomfort and you cannot hide who you are. Right. And it takes vulnerability and knowing yourself. And so the advice I would give is know thyself, spend time to figure yourself out if you don't and lead with an open heart.

[Rhea Wong]

Oh, beautiful. All right, thank you so much, Connor. I'm going to make sure to put your show notes in or your information in the show notes if folks want to get in touch with you. And the next time I'm in North Carolina, we're going to get some sweet tea.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

Can't wait.

[Rhea Wong]

We're going to talk about the tsunamis.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

There is a great pollination happening right now, Ria, which is where all the trees knees and a literal green cloud hovers across the North Carolina.

[Rhea Wong]

Oh Lord. That sounds like my worst nightmare. I have hay fever. I would be incapacitated. But I'll look at pictures of it.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

Give it a couple weeks and I can't wait to welcome you to a nice glass of sweet tea. We'll have a good time.

[Rhea Wong]

I would love that. All right, thanks so much, Connor. We will talk to you soon and have a good spring.

[Connor Kirkpatrick]

Thanks, Ria.

[Rhea Wong]

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