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A
Hey. Welcome to Nonprofit Lowdown. Today's presenting sponsor is Zefie.com Zefie is an all in one online donation platform with no platform fees and no credit card fees ever. I've been in your shoes and what I'm not trying to do is spend extra money on platform fees. I don't like it and my donors don't either. We're about to head into year end when 30% of your money comes in. You want every dollar going where it's needed most. Your mission, not lining the pockets of a payment processor. Am I right? So check out zefy.com register. That's Z-E-F-F-Y.com register. Make sure to let them know that you got sent from Nonprofit Lowdown. All right, let's get into today's episode. Welcome to Nonprofit Loadown. I'm your host, Rhea Wong. Hey, podcast listeners, it's Ria Wong with you once again with Nonprofit Lowdown. Today we have a fan favorite, one of my dear friends, Greg Warner on the pod to talk about donor trust. So at the time this airs, it's going to be at the beginning of thinking about year end giving. I think this will air sometime in September, which means that we have a small window of opportunity to think about how we are touching base and building trusting relationships with our donors. And yet things have changed. Times have changed. Some of the stuff that used to work just don't work anymore. So I'm delighted to invite my friend, CEO of MarketSmart, Greg Warner, on the pod to talk about it. Greg, welcome to the show.
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B
Hi. Thank you for having me.
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A
It is a pleasure. By the way. I don't think you know this, but your episodes have been the most downloaded episodes that I've done.
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B
Oh, wow.
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A
Can't imagine why the people love them some Greg Warner. Okay, Greg, before we jump into this, because I know this is a topic that you and I could talk about ad nauseam, tell me a little bit about yourself, your company, and why you are such an expert on donor trust.
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B
My short story is that I fell into this space because I became a ticked off donor. So talk about loss of trust. I thought I was a major donor, but giving a five figure, low five figure gift to me in my 30s. At the time, late 30s, I didn't realize how little that was compared to so many other major donors. But it felt pretty major to me. And the experience, the giving experience and the afterglow stewardship experience were just lacking. And as someone who did not come from a philanthropic family, this is no dynasty. I grew up in middle class New Jersey, and I just want. I felt the urge to give and I wanted to help, but I. I found the experience lacking, so I called up my favorite charity. I was running a marketing agency at the time. I gave them ideas on how they could improve. They actually took the ideas. They did them well. I offered them for free at first, and then we started getting referrals. I realized I needed software to support what we were doing for these charities. So we built that. Now we're on our third version of it, and we work with hundreds of organizations and. Yeah, so that's my story.
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A
All right, Greg, let's get into it, because as a marketer and as a donor, I'm really curious. How have you seen donor behavior change over the last. Honestly, I think it's been most obvious in the last five years since the pandemic. Curious what your observations are.
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B
Yeah, and it's. It's partly, maybe caused a little bit by the pandemic, but it's really demographics and it's really technology. So the baby boomers are much different than the silent generation. And let me the ones right after me. The Gen Xers are exponentially different than both us. Let's talk about Gen Xers that I know really intimately, because that's me. We grew up being told that Frosted Flakes are part of a complete breakfast. We don't trust anybody. And boomers don't either. It's just they're still trusting Walter Cronkite and the news a little bit and whatnot. But even they are breaking away. And trust is. Has been diminished in all categories everywhere. You're talking politics, media, even sports. My brother won't watch the NFL. He thinks it's all fixed, like pro wrestling. He really does. Trust is really on the downturn here. And it's painful for charities because for really 75 years, they had free reign. They could send out letters and make all kinds of promises and transactionally just get money back. But over the years and decades, organizations have. Not all of them, of course, just the bad apples have proven that they're not worthy and that they've cheated or they wasted or they. They sent money away to people on their staff that didn't deserve it. They milked it. Yet there's a big challenge here, partly demographic, but also because people can use technology to do research, and they will.
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A
Let's talk about this because you and I have talked ad nauseam about the use of technology and how it may engender or erode Trust. And one of the things that we talked about was the ubiquitous wealth screen. And so I'm curious about how do we use new technologies or maybe existing technologies like wealth screens or the incredible amount of marketing data that we get now that we didn't get before in a way that feels like I'm building and extending a trusting relationship as opposed to an extractive and I'm just going to minor data for what I want.
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B
Yeah, look, let me put on my donor perspective hat for a guy who has had several businesses, made a fair amount of money in real estate. Also was in the printing business, marketing business. But I ended up building a custom house here just outside of D.C. it's a big house. That's not, I'm not saying that to brag. It's. I'm saying that because I end up on these wealth screening lists. And I didn't realize that until as I was engaging with this charity when I started giving them these free services. This lady Judy oh over there explained to me how little I understood about fundraising because I'm just a dopey donor. And she explained to me how consultants help with this and that and how there's these wealth screening firms and the predictive analytics and all this kind of stuff. And I thought, okay, let me look at all that. And I finally, I found one of the vendors of wealth screening and I said, okay, help me look up myself. And I see Lennet. It says all this stuff about me and it shows the size of my house. And what it didn't say is that I failed to save for college for my kids. And what I didn't know at the time was that both of them were going to go to really fancy 70,000 plus a year schools. So what they didn't know is that I was fairly overextended in this house. I was starting a business, so every penny is going into the business. My dad's third wife decided to sue me after he died. For what? Money he left to us all, which wasn't that much. But then we had to pay for the lawyers and try and fight her. We eventually gave up. She won. We didn't want this drama. My mother sadly was dying of cancer at the time. I and I had this hanging over my head of all the college expenses to come. I had no idea it would be that expensive. There's probably a bigger list than that. But it was not the right time for me to be a major donor. Yet the world screening said that they should. The recommended ask for me was $50,000 and I'm just thinking how in the world this. What, what. Why would you possibly tell any fundraiser and how could any fundraiser use this information? Of course wise fundraisers know that there's more to the story and they can't just go off of well screening and those recommended asks, but they don't really know how to get the information except by making cold calls, hopefully or warm calls from. I guess you could call them warm from well screened people. They're not necessarily really ready. Just the whole thing didn't make sense. However, what I realized is that these services and tools are so convenient and they're low cost. That's a recipe for disaster. You could get well screening done like almost immediately and not pay very much for it. And then that satisfies like your curiosity, your need for curiosity kind of snooping. And by the way, none of it like the donors have not granted permission. I get it, it's publicly available information, but I don't know, I always wonder if you dropped like a folder and the wealth screening fell out in the kitchen of your major donor and they picked it up, would they like it?
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A
Right.
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B
No. The whole thing just seems very targeted. Like here's a spear. Go hunt a whale and extract the fat out of it so we can make soap. It just. It's not philanthropy, it's extraction. It's not love, it's just, it's our organization needs something. So go out there and get it. Yeah, that's not partnership, it's not nice. Do you think I dislike that stuff, by the way? I don't really hate. It's directional and I guess you could use it to a certain degree, but the way that it's marketed and some people, the trust they put in the data, which isn't even accurate. Nobody knows what's in my 401k or in my Fidelity account. That's private, you just don't have any idea. So it doesn't really quite make sense, but it definitely satisfies the traditional 75 year old structure and approach. That's quite transactional and I. Yeah, go ahead.
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A
I would agree with that because I think we haven't had a structure and a system and so essentially the strategy has been burn insured. I'm just going to make as many calls as I can, I'm going to ask as many people as I can for money and then when I lose people out the back because they haven't had a great donor experience, I just refill the pipeline with people who don't yet know that this is going to be a terrible experience for them.
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B
Yeah. So this is an interesting point because let me pivot and provide some serious empathy to anybody who's listening, especially leaders or fundraisers at nonprofits. Massive empathy. As a business owner, I can tell you that most businesses have one type of model that they have to service. If you own a car wash, that's a transactional model. People come, they want their car paid, washed, and they pay for it. Boom. It's very clean. It makes sense. Other businesses, like, if you're building a house, that's a very deliberate, intentional, high dollar decision. It's going to take time. It's going to need a roadmap and a pathway for and some expertise of others. So those are two separate businesses building a house versus washing cars. The nonprofit sector kind of has to run both and maybe even a third called mid level. So there's the transactional low dollar acquisition, there's the mid level, and then there's the major. And the major. Is this highly considered decision a planned gift? Major gift is a planned gift. Planned gift is major gift. And the other side is the transactional. You have to run two businesses. So how do you get. And this is very hard for the leader is to make sure that the team understands that the transactional aspect of the business is the gateway drug. The highly deliberate, considered decision. And what you have to do is almost take some paper and put it all over your wall and start at the beginning of the process with a. Not even a donor, but just a supporter who's knowledgeable about your cause. Maybe they gave to get a T shirt, but they're on Facebook and they just think they're a fan. So you almost have to draw a line all the way across horizontally and be like, this is the experience that we're going to try to provide for people from one end of the spectrum all the way through to the other end. And of course, a very, very few will be capable of making a major or legacy gift. But we have to think about the donor's experience and then what kind of value. And this is a hard thing on also for leaders to understand. You have to put yourself in the donor's shoes. What kind of value do they want and can we provide at each stage of their life cycle, their lifetime value? It's very hard. And then. Sorry is that. Then you have so many areas where, like, you'll have tons of ideas if you did this exercise. But then you have to start chiseling away and be like, all right, what can we really get done? And what's going to get us the most lift? And usually I recommend people start, which is not usually where they start. You should start in major gifts and legacy gifts stewardship. The biggest gifts you'll get are going to come from those people who are already doing it and work backwards. But what most people do is they try to figure out ways to build more awareness or generate more low dollar transactions that only make up maybe 6% of all their revenue from 80% of their donors.
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A
Yeah. There's so many things that you're saying I want to touch on. So one is the mismatch, the mismatch of tactics to where the donor is. So when you're trying to employ tactics that are more mass, that might be good for your low dollar donor and try to apply that to your major donor, like that's not going to work. The other thing that I think is hard about this is there's no predictable point A to point B. Right. I think we have this idea. Well, you start as $100 donor and then you go to 10,000. At some point maybe you go to $100,000. But what I've seen, and I'd love for you to speak on this, is it's not linear. Like I've had five figure gifts from people who've never even heard. Like I didn't even know them. Right. Because they were doing their own research, as they say, they were self, self soliciting and self cultivating. And on the other hand, I had hundred dollar donors that indeed like I, I did research, maybe I saw that they were capable of a much bigger gift, but all they were going to do is a hundred dollars a year. And so speak a little bit to the difficulty of also understanding your pipeline if it's not linear.
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B
Yeah. So this is, boy, talk about all the myths and orthodoxies that I debunked over the past 17 years since I started this is that one of them is the worst is the fundraising pyramid. It's like that health pyramid from when I was a kid. That's, that had at the bottom it was like eat lots of bread and grains. And now everybody flips that. The fundraising pyramid is very linear. First we're going to acquire them, then we're going to cultivate or qualify and I don't know, it's, there's several different kinds. But what is interesting is I invented this little software called the Fundraising Report Card, which is still free and people can use it to analyze and visualize their data for board reports or just to try and understand what's going on. And it's. By the way, let me plug it. It's@fundraisingreportcard.com the data. We looked at that data and we realized something that was shocking to me is that for gifts, over $5,000, 25% of those each year come from new major donors on average across thousands of organizations. Wow. So if they start at 5 or 10 or more thousand dollars, 25% of them, you know, I'm not talking 1%. I'm talking not all of them, but a big chunk. What's funny is then a lot of them, after two or three years are gone. They don't ever give again. Yeah.
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A
So got to talk about that.
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B
Right. And we'll come back to that. But so this. And then you get these legacy gifts seemingly over the transom, and you're like, where did they come from? I wish we knew them. We could have thanked them and all that. But they're gone. All we heard about is from their lawyer. So if that's the truth and you see it in the data and you know it's happening because you see the interactions of people on Facebook or Instagram or whatever else you're doing, and then you realize they're not even in our database. They never gave a lot of these people. So you realize that there's more to the story and there are fans. But the question is, so how do you, how do you help them move into a giving mindset? And what I'll give you, the short answer is you have to offer people something of value. You have to use the law of reciprocity to give to them, to show them that you care about them, not just their money. Because if you only care about their money, they will go find another charity that shows that they care about them.
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A
Quick break. Today's episode is brought to you by zefy.com if you're running a nonprofit, you already know year end is when 30% of your revenue hits. You want every dollar going to the mission, not bleeding out to platform or credit card fees. That's why I love Zevy. Z E F F Y. It's an all in one online platform with no platform fees and no credit card fees ever. I've been in your shoes and paying fees on donations felt like lighting money on fire. My donors didn't like it either. So do yourself a Favor, head to Zephy.com for forward slash register. Again, that's Z-E-F-F-Y.com register and keep every cent working for your cause. Be sure to tell Them that you heard about it from non profit Lowdown. All right, back to the show. I want to talk about the role of transparency because from my experience, ultimately giving is a deeply emotional decision. Right. As much as we want to put numbers behind it, like it's something you decide in your heart. And then the numbers have to make sense. They have to align with the emotional decisions that I've made. I'm also wondering in this world of technology and AI and radical transparency, what, how might we think about showing people the impact of what they've done? And I think I actually did a webinar earlier today. I think there that donor centric has become a dirty word. But I'm also like, if you don't actually show people the impact of what they gave to and give them the dream and victory that they hope for, like why would they give you money again? So I guess the question is like, what is the role of transparency in retaining donors?
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B
So transparency is just one small component of trust building. So one way you build trust is through transparency. And there are others. So let's talk about trust because when people consider exchanging money, they always, whether it's for charity or anything else, you always exchange money for some sort of value. However, you can't even get to that consideration stage to consider transferring money in exchange for value if you don't trust the person or organization on the other side of the fence. So transparency again is a component of trust. And trust is the foundation or the cornerstone of in the foundation for anything else to happen in a relationship. When organizations, and what's amazing is Americans especially are very trustful. But once you lose their trust, it's really nearly impossible to ever build it back up. So transparency is very powerful for building trust. There's, and it's on both sides of the coin. There's showing impact, telling beneficiary stories, showing how the community gathered and came together. And then there's the trust in line with the hero's story. So you were touching on this, is that everybody who gives, especially at the larger dollar amounts, wants to gain a victory that enhances their identity. So the victory is the act of giving. That's when you stand on the Olympic and you get your gold medal. But the enhanced identity is the afterglow. It's very fleeting to give the money. That can take just a few seconds or a few minutes. But it's the afterglow is the enhanced identity. And this is where the problem lies for shops that want to think transactionally is because all this you're probably listening, starting to get a little bit confused. And you're like, hold on, what is he talking about? Enhanced identity. And I'm about to say, you have to make sure that the donor got what they wanted, meaning they got the enhanced identity that they were seeking through giving. That's the value exchange. They're giving money. It's totally unnatural. They're giving money away from for something that is very vague. And. But if you know about it, what is the enhanced identity? And if you ask the donor, you said, what are you really seeking to get out of this giving? Look, I was on the street and nobody would help me. And then this organization, this rescue mission helped me, and they got me on my feet. And then I did this, and then I did that, and then I worked for, and then I did that, and then I bought real estate, and then here I am. And so I'm giving to that organization because I want to be seen as somebody who repays. And let me add a second thing is, and I want my name on the building because this is my neighborhood.
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A
I want to be seen as the.
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B
Person who did it, and I want to be an inspiration to others. See, so talking about in here, I'm trying to give you a real world example of this is the kind of conversation you have to have, is digging deep and finding out, like, what do you want from this giving? And then try to give it to them. And if you can, because your organization, your cause, aligns with their life story and their values and their desire to be part of the community or find purpose and meaning through belonging. I liken it to going to an optometrist where you're trying to get your eyes and see clearly and they keep putting in these different pieces of glass, and then all of a sudden it clicks and you're like, eureka. I can see as a fundraiser, if you can help someone understand their own life story, their values, their desire to belong, and find purpose in alignment with your cause and of course, in alignment with your giving policies as well, then you really make something meaningful that gives the donor experience, something that is memorable and the donor will want to actually do again and tell their friends about.
- [25:36]
A
So let me pause there, because I think you touched on something that seems intuitive, but I just want to say it so people don't miss it, which is your role as a fundraiser, and you and I talk about this all the time, is you are the guide, you are the Yoda to their experience. And I think that the piece that a lot of nonprofits miss is that they don't think about working on behalf of the donor. They think about working on behalf of the organization and that the donor is simply a resource that they need to extract to get the thing that they really want.
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B
Yeah, I'm gonna. I'm gonna take the gloves off and. I don't know. You said I. I'm your most popular podcast interview. Maybe this will make me the least popular, but I'm gonna say it because.
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A
Say it. All right. We don't shy away from controversy here on nonprofit loadout.
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B
Never. So there's been a lot of talk about community centric fundraising in the past few years, and I'm down with it because, yes, of course the community should be involved. They should have a seat at the table. Duh. And we don't want donors changing our missions or driving us out of business or away from the community that we're aiming to serve. But that's what you have gift acceptance policies for. But what I have yet to see is organizations that even include the donor in their mission statement that, for instance, part of our mission is to help donors and supporters find meaning in their lives by helping to support us. Yeah, we're part of the damn community. And they're not included. And in fact, are often looked at in negative terms, like they're just an evil donor. We gotta watch out for them or they're gonna take over our mission. That's not true if you have good gift acceptance policies and you think about this in terms of providing value. So now let me show some empathy, though, to. To the team. Is that, look, many of us were brought up on TV shows where the rich. The wealthiest person is always the villain. I know a lot of wealthy people, and they're not villains. Most of them are entrepreneurs. And in fact, most of the most philanthropic ones are first generation immigrant Americans. This isn't the days of the. Of. I don't even know the Rothschild, Gilded Age.
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A
No, I'm watching all of the Gilded Age, Vanderbilt, the Evil Aster. I don't. That's not the world that we live in. Someone just asked me this about the strategy that you have. Would you consider it donor centric or community centric? And I have to say about that one. I think it's a false dichotomy. I think it's not an either or. It's a both and second. I like to talk about what if you're just mission centric? What if actually what you care about is how we can do the most good for the most people. And everybody can insert in the way that makes sense for them, the donors, the volunteers, the clients, whatever. But what we keep at the center of it is how do we do the most good for the most amount of people? And I think if the thing that you hold at the center, you can't go much wrong even, and that does include donors. How do we do the most good for donors who are supporting us? How do we do the most good for the clients that we serve? How do we do the most good for the board member? Let's talk about board members for a second. Now, you and I like to beat up on board members, but I will say this often, board members are our biggest donors. And somehow the minute they come onto the board, they move from somebody that we steward and fet and make feel good to we beat up on them the minute they're on the board. Well, how come they're not doing this and they're supposed to introduce me to that and they're not doing what they said they're going to do, then it's not to say that I don't think board members should slack. Board members should do the thing that they said that they were going to do. But let us not forget your board members are your top donors.
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B
Okay? Wow. We could have a whole podcast just on that. But let me just say that board members often, and I don't do it anymore because I just became so frustrated, but there's often not much clarity provided to them to make their board experience, again, donor experience worthwhile to them. In other words, okay, you want to be on the board, what do you want to get out of being on the board? So in fact, I want to come back to you're saying mission centric, which I love that idea. However, when you're talking to a major donor or a person with capacity, I'm sorry, yes, they're interested in the mission, but we are all human. When people talk to you individually, you're always wondering, what's in it for me? Okay, this is not evil. It's just humanity. We all seek to improve our circumstances. So I like to use the term, which I'm sure people will hate, but I don't care because it's the right term, is that your fundraising needs to be donor driven, in other words. And again, you have to add your community centered gift policies in place. Donor driven doesn't mean they change your mission. It means that you let them opt in. You let them tell you when they're ready for a proposal. You ask them, are you ready for a proposal? Now, it doesn't mean you. The opposite is that's donor driven. The opposite is going to lunch with them and saying, hey, by the way, I got this amazing shiny proposal. And then they come back from their, like, training. Would you consider a gift in the amount of $250,000? And you're like. And we've heard that whole thing from five other fundraisers they've been through. It's not donor driven. Like, how do you know the timing's right? How do you know that they understand the connection of their life story with your organ? How do you know that your values and their values are aligned? How do you know what identity enhancement they're seeking? How do you know how you're going to steward them? You haven't talked about that. You have to ask about asking.
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A
Yeah, sure. Wait, can I just share? I recently did this training and I was talking about this very issue around, like, creating a structure in a system. So you're co creating an experience. And I get off the stage and this guy comes to me and he was like, yeah, your information was very good. But you didn't tell people my number one best piece of advice. And I was like, what's this? And he said, when you go in for an ask, if you think you're going to ask someone for $10,000, you should ask them for 50 to $1,000, because then they'll feel so guilty about it, maybe they'll give you 25. And I was like, I don't even know what to respond. Wow, this is your best piece of advice. You're telling people that you're presumably practicing. I had no words. I had no words.
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B
Look, there are poor players who sell cars, and there are great people who love their customers and sell cars. And there are the same in fundraising. They think that it's a gimmick, it's a trick, there's some kind of angle. Okay, what if instead of playing that kind of game, you actually tried to figure out how to make the giving and exploration experience so amazing that the person doesn't want to give that amount, they want to give a million dollars. Maybe if you partnered with them and listened to them and understood, and maybe if you asked questions like there are questions you can ask to find out what somebody's thinking or what they would want to spend. Where are you in your life and how does philanthropy fit? What kind of assets do you give? Assets? What kind of assets do you give? How do you structure your philanthropy? Who's involved? Is it your children? Do you have an advisor? What's your plan? Do you want to give away all your money before? How much is that? What do you think? So this brings you back to that thing where you were saying that you need to take on the position of guide. And this is a another talk about empathy for leaders out there and fundraisers. It's a directive. I'm going to give you this directive. You have to stop being an Extractionist and you have to become a partner, counselor and guide. And what that means is you have to get your mindset straight that, hey, you're not carrying around a spirit trying to kill a whale. What you're doing is you're a high quality, high empathy, curious, compassionate counselor, better than their wealth manager, their lawyer, their cpa. But they have these people who take the position of counselor and guide very easily and they say to someone, open up your finances, Tell me about your finances. And then they do. I do it with my cpa, right?
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A
Yeah.
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B
They just ask me matter of fact questions because they have taken the position that they are a guide and they deserve to know in order to provide value and a valuable giving experience that enhances their identity. So you have to be confident in your ability to be a lover of philanthropy, not an Extractionist or somebody who's on the other side of the fence. Like, this is not a fight. You have to love these people and prove that you're worthy of their trust and that if they share some information with you about how they want to give and the amount of money that they could consider giving, then you can be you. In fact, compared to their cpa, their advisors, and you're the only one that can give them a insider VIP experience to connect the dots and realize the best version of themselves.
- [35:54]
A
So I say this to everyone all of the time, but I want you to think about exactly as the Disney experience. For those of us who have been to Disney, we know that it's not just you pay your ticket, you go on the ride. It is a whole experience. And why people are so happy to go back to Disney time and time again, even though it's crazy expensive and it's hot and you're sticky and you're in lines forever is because you remember the magic. And how are we bringing the magic into the giving experience? And I also, for folks out here, please read Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Godara. I think it is very instructive to help people think about being in that service mindset. How are you creating experiences worth talking about? All right, Greg, we're rounding the corner. We could talk about this forever. And ever. But if folks are listening and they're like, yes, Greg, I'm hearing you, it's September. I know that there is going to be a sprint to year end. Now, let's be clear. Major gifts are not necessarily under the same kind of time pressure as your annual gifts or your giving Tuesday gifts. But let's say that there are some number of people who like to have the conversation about giving near the end of the year. What can I do right now, today to try to build some trust if I haven't done my homework the rest of the year?
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B
So small tweaks begin with a mindset change that you're not calling people to get their money. You're calling to give them a amazing giving experience. So imagine if instead of calling someone up and you're making the rounds and you call them every year and they know that you're going to call and hey, just want to see how you're doing. Not really caring, but it also wondering if that $50,000 gift is going to come in yet. And your renewal, I know you didn't realize we thought you were on a subscription, but now you're going to renew it with there's no contract or anything. I don't know why we call it a renewal. But anyway, I'm here. Instead of that, take a break and say, usually every year I call you and we have this conversation and you give and you're, you're so wonderful and we're so grateful. Can I ask you some questions? Can I get your permission to just ask you some questions about why are you doing this and what can I do for you? I would love to be able to bring you closer or at least be your conduit and help you see the impact. You have been so generous and we're so grateful. What can I do for you? And that 10 or $50,000 gift could become $100,000 gift. And then you actually need to make less calls because you're getting bigger giving. So building trust by being real and being a human who's curious about their humanity, if you show that curiosity with empathy, that's love. And that's what philanthropy is all about. Comes from the Greek word love and humanity.
- [39:07]
A
All right, Greg. I hope folks will listen and take this to heart as you're planning your year and giving or planning any donor outreach. Start from the place of how can I serve? What can I do for you versus what can you do for me? I think that's a great takeaway, Greg. Thank you so much for being on the show. We'll make sure your info's in the show notes along with the fundraising report card which I use with my clients. It is awesome. Highly recommend. Will give you a snapshot of where you are today and I think it's probably true. Most nonprofit folks don't look at their numbers often enough so you got to look at the numbers. Don't be scared. You can't impress the numbers if you.
- [39:43]
B
Don'T know what the numbers are.
- [39:44]
A
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