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- [00:00]
A
Hey you, it's Rhea Wong. If you're listening to Nonprofit Load On, I'm pretty sure that you'd love my weekly newsletter. Every Tuesday morning you get updates on the newest podcast episodes and then interspersed we have fun special invitations for newsletter subscribers only and fundraising inspo because I know what it feels like to be in the trenches alone. On top of that, you get cute dog photos. Best of all, it is free. So what are you waiting for? Head over to riawong.com now to sign up. Foreign welcome to Nonprofit Lowdown. I'm your host Rhea Wong. Hey podcast listeners, it's Ria Wong with you once again with Nonprofit Lowdown. Today I'm here with my friends Stephanie Roth and Haley Bash. We are talking about the Accidental Fundraiser which I know so many of us in the field are. Stephanie is a principal at Klein and Roth Consultants and has been a trainer, writer, consultant and coach on fundraising board development and organizational development for over 30 years. She is also the co author of the newly released second edition of the Accidental Fundraiser, a step by step guide to raising money for your cause. She is joined by Haley Bash, who is a grassroots fundraiser, distributed organizer and facilitator. Also the co author and executive director of the donor organization Organizer Hub. Friends, welcome to the show.
- [01:27]
B
Thanks for having us. Great to be here.
- [01:28]
C
Thank you so much.
- [01:30]
A
Let's get into it because I know that there are lots of people out here listening like an accidental fundraiser. That is me. I was also an accidental fundraiser. So tell me a little bit about what inspired this book because it echoes so many of the experiences of so many of us in the field but yet feeling like no one said the quiet part out loud which is like we're making it up as we go.
- [01:53]
C
Yes. So maybe I'll start since this is the second edition of a book that I co wrote 20 years ago with a different co author. And what inspired the book was seeing that there was a lot out there. There wasn't as much in in the fundraising world as there is now in terms of resources, but there was a lot out there that was aimed at an audience of fundraising staff or executive directors of small nonprofits who didn't have fundraising staff. But it was really about building an organizational infrastructure and strategy and carrying out activities mostly staff driven. And what was missing was something for people who just wanted to raise money for some one time activity or event or small organization they were starting. They didn't know where to start and they didn't have all of the infrastructure they needed and weren't necessarily going to be building something. But they did need to raise a thousand dollars or 5,000 or even $10,000, and they didn't know where to start.
- [02:51]
A
Yeah. And, Haley, I know with your experience as a grassroots fundraiser, was that what was behind your inspiration in writing this book?
- [02:59]
B
Yeah, actually, I was an original reader of the first edition, and something that comes up a lot for us. At Donor Organizer Hub, we train and coach volunteers to fundraise for causes they care about. So. So we have a lot of volunteers and board members that come our way, and they would say things like, haley, I want to host a house party. But when I do an Internet search, the results that come back are all these blog posts by fundraising CRMs, and they're telling me that I need to subscribe, you know, a minimum of hundreds or thousands of dollars a month to get started. And I don't think that's true, is it? And so Stephanie and I discussed updating the book to 2025 context, because a lot has changed since 2005 so that it can go back to basics that, you know, you don't need to buy some fancy CRM to host a house party. You can just have a nice Google sheet of who you're inviting and call them up directly, text them, get them in.
- [03:55]
A
Yeah. You know, it's so interesting you say that, Haley, because I think now we're really faced with all of these, like, new fancy tools, and now AI is on the scene, and everyone has an app for that. But I think people are really hungry for just genuine human connections. And so what I have been saying is the gala is dead small house parties are in. So wondering if that reflects what you're seeing out in the universe.
- [04:19]
B
Definitely see that, especially as nonprofit budgets are tightening. So there's not as much upfront investment that can be made into these events that have existed before. And people do want to connect with each other on a more intimate level. A lot of the house parties that we help people host have just 15 to 20 people in the room that haven't seen each other in a while. So there's this piece outside of fundraising goals, of just, I want to reconnect with people I haven't seen in the past six months because life kind of gets past you.
- [04:46]
A
Yeah, for sure.
- [04:47]
C
Yeah. I just want to add about galas versus house parties, because I think what happened is, you know, when you go to a new group of people and they say, we want to raise money, and you ask them, well, what ideas do you have about how to raise money? The first Thing that everybody says is I'm talking about inexperienced people is, well, we should have an event, right? Events are how you raise money or write a grant proposal, which is a whole other subject.
- [05:10]
A
So don't get me started on event fundraising. We'll be here all day.
- [05:14]
C
So for years, I would say, no, no, no. You know, events are very labor intensive. Even if you keep them to a minimum in terms of, you know, bells and whistles, they're still relatively expensive. It's much easier to just ask your friends to give and ask them to ask their friends. But they. But then I realized years later that actually, events do have a role because they do bring people together, and they're a way to connect socially and build energy for a cause. So I kind of went from being very negative about events to a little more nuanced about them. But it's true that a house party is a much simpler version of a big event, and, yeah, much less cost and easier to pull off, et cetera. So.
- [05:54]
A
Well, let's talk about events and the F word. Fear, right? Because I think a lot of people who are inexperienced with fundraising feel more comfortable with an event, right? Because it feels like, okay, I can ask people to buy a ticket, or I can ask them to buy a table, or I can ask them to, you know, donate a bottle of wine, right? And that just feels, for whatever reason, a little bit more doable. But let's talk about what's really at the core of it, which is the fear of asking. So in the book, you talk about the discomfort of asking for money. And when. When you're dealing with people who are not career fundraisers, how do you help people get over that fear of, like, oh, I. Like, I'm gonna have to ask my friends for money and then ask their friends for money? Like, I would rather stab myself in the eye.
- [06:39]
B
I have had a trainee say that they would rather individually pluck their. Their fingernails off before. That was the before period. Stephanie, you wanna take this one first?
- [06:48]
C
Well, I will say one of the first things I do when people raise this question of, ugh, like, I don't want to do that. I don't want to make my friends uncomfortable. I don't want to jeopardize our friendship. The first thing I say is, how do you feel when you are giving money to a cause that you care about writing a check or donating online or putting cash into a, you know, pass the hat at a meeting? How does that feel? And most people say it feels pretty good. If I. If I like the cause. If I believe in what they're doing, it feels really good. So then I say, well, then you have to put yourself in the shoes of the prospective donor because they're much more comfortable being asked than you are asking. Now, having said that, it doesn't mean you should ask everybody. Right. I had an. I had an experience a number of years ago where a colleague of mine who I was very friendly with, wrote to me and asked if I would donate to his house of worship. They were doing some kind of capital campaign or something. And I was like, I like you very much, but, you know, I'm not part of your community. I'm not part of that faith institution, you know, so kind of there was a mismatch there. So asking people, you know, is very important. Asking everybody, you know, not so much.
- [07:59]
A
So, yeah, I think that's right. And there is a school of thought. And I know there. There are people out here giving advice, which I think is a little wrongheaded, which is like, ask everyone all the time for as much as they possibly can give. And I'm like, well, that is a sure fire way to make sure your friends never return your phone calls. But I also think if they're not getting better guidance, they're like, well, I guess that's what I should do, because people who are experts are telling me that's what I need to do. Hayley, what would you say to that?
- [08:27]
B
Yeah, this is actually something we cover in the book. You know, we call it the CBAs. So. And it's. It's a common thing for, I think a lot of fundraisers that are listening out here, contact belief and ability. And a lot of the volunteers that we work with, the donor organizer hub, they're raising for multiple causes. They're not just focused. They're not a nonprofit staff focused on one cause. So that belief piece is actually a really big piece of it is thinking about, okay, if I am fundraising Stephanie, what communities is she a part of that overlap with the causes that I care about? You know, if I am reaching out to you, Ria, about an animal rights group, but I know that you don't have pets, and you told me that they just get hair everywhere.
- [09:07]
A
I don't know.
- [09:08]
B
Like, it might work out, but I would be more likely to get buns from Stephanie, who I know owns two cats, one named Mr. Cuddles. And there are thousands of photos that she has available. That's a relative comparison there. But a lot of times people are, you know, nervous about, oh, well, it has to be so big. And I have to ask everybody every time, and if you can be strategic about it, it can be more sustainable for everybody.
- [09:31]
A
So one of the things that I heard, and I actually did a board training this past weekend, posed the exact same question. Stephanie. Well, how do you feel when you give to organizations and causes that you love? The number one thing, not the number one. There were lots of different reasons, but one of the most recurring reasons I hear heard was like, oh, because then I'm afraid that they're going to ask me, what would you say to that? Because I. I do think that is legitimate thing. Right. Because everyone has their thing. And I know if I give to yours, you're going to turn around and ask me to give to yours.
- [10:00]
C
Yeah, that is a really common response. Absolutely. And what I generally say is, that's why it's so important that you, when you're asking people, that you really think about who are the right people to ask. So, Ria, if I ask you to make a gift, because I know you really believe in the work I'm doing around free speech right now, a big issue. And then you come to me next week and say, can you give to my cat sanctuary? I might say to you, good luck to you, Ria. That's really. I'm glad you're really committed to that issue. The fact is, I'm kind of tapped out. Right. Or whatever. Or cats aren't my thing. I mean, to be able to say, to be honest with who you're asking, that you really want them to give if this is something they care about and that you will do the same. And I think just being open about that is really fine. And I have had to say no to friends sometimes. And I've been really clear, look, I really support you doing this. Keep going. But doesn't mean every single person has to say yes. And the quid pro quo of fundraising, I say each of us has to take responsibility for kind of ending that dynamic that we feel we have to. Now, having said, I will just say one caveat. I have a sister who has been very involved. She's not a fundraiser, she's a school teacher. She's been very involved for actually a couple decades now with Make a Wish Foundation. She loves them today. I mean, it's just her favorite charity. And she raises. She asks all of her family members every year to give. And for a variety of reasons that have to do with my relationship with her, I feel like I kind of have to do it. So, yes, there are times when I'M going to give 50 or $100. I'm not going to give my biggest gift ever, but I want her to feel supported by me. So, yeah, there are times we just do that, right?
- [11:43]
A
Sure. I mean, I use this example all the time. I don't have kids, but like clockwork, I donate to my nieces preschool because I've asked and I love my nieces and. Sure. I mean, we just do that. Yeah. Hayley, I want to talk a little bit about mindset because I'd like to talk about fundraising being leadership in public. And I think the mindset that I really try to stress with folks that I train around fundraising is it's not about the money and helping them to believe that there's more than enough out there for all of us. Right. And so a lot of times I have folks say like, well, who are your competitor? Nonprofits? I'm like, that doesn't exist. That's a, that's a false choice. Like other organizations, doing good work is not your competition. So I'm curious, from your perspective, when you're training fundraisers and as you've been thinking about this book, how have you helped people really shift their mindset away from the scarcity and away from thinking always about the transaction versus thinking about the community and the relationship?
- [12:47]
B
I love this question so much. A big piece of it honestly starts with goal setting up our eyes when we're training people. Of course, total dollars raised is going to be often the starting conversation. We need to raise 5,000 bucks to fix this pothole that our, you know, whatever neighborhood refuses to fix. And if you focus solely on dollars, it does become very transactional.
- [13:10]
C
Right.
- [13:10]
B
It's like, oh, well, okay. I just, you know, numbers, numbers, numbers. What we ask people to have is a second goal of some kind, like number of asks that you're going to make to people, which turns into number of conversations that you're having about your cause. So I turn to you, Ria, regardless of whether you say yes or no, you suddenly know more about this neighborhood project that I have going on to fix that pothole that you didn't before. It might have you start thinking about the pothole problem and maybe, you know, somebody in the neighborhood that might want to actually chip in the pothole problem, even though it's not your neighborhood and it's not your pothole problem.
- [13:43]
A
Yeah, I was. Stephanie, I'm wondering if you could say a bit more too, about what is from your perspective as someone who's been in the fundraising trend just for a while. What is that shift that people really need to make to be successful in fundraising?
- [13:56]
C
So I come out of a sort of social justice activist and organizing background. And for me, the biggest light bulb that went off for me, on, for me when I was younger was really understanding that when people want to do something in their community, whether it's a very specific neighborhood issue or a bigger issue like the. In my early 20s, I was very active in the reproductive rights, reproductive justice movement. Well, the issue of abortion has always been a very fraught one. So it was one that when. When people came together to do something about it, they really cared very strongly about it. And I realized that after making mistakes in my early years of not asking those people who were coming together as activists, not asking them to also donate money, that we were leaving money on the table. People want to make a difference. They want to show up in the streets or show up in a community meeting or show up at a city council hearing and give some money. I mean, it's all part of taking action. I think for me, the shift was really seeing fundraising as a part of that, not as a separate, siloed, oh, we'll do this behind the scenes. No one needs to know where the money comes from. We'll just go scramble around and get some and bring it back to those doing the real work in quotes. So I think that, for me, was the most powerful and actually makes a difference for people who think money is kind of a dirty thing or something kind of to stay away from.
- [15:16]
A
Let's get into that one because I. I have so much to say on the topic because I, I think to your point, both and. Right. Like, your best gifts are likely going to come from your volunteers. And I think I've heard people say, like, well, we couldn't possibly ask them because they're already giving of their time. And I'm like, if they're giving of your time, they're giving you the more valuable thing, actually, because we can all make more money, but we can't make more time. But I want to talk about this from a grassroots perspective, not to bash the grassroots folks out here, but I have noticed that, particularly with folks that I feel like are very progressive, really focused on social justice, there's almost like this aversion to money or, like, talking about money or somehow it's dirty or, you know, I've had lots of conversations about, like, well, you know, rich people are bad and they did bad things to get their money. And I'm like, well, that's a very broad brush Friend, like, is that true? And sure. Like, if we want go back to like the very, very state, like early stages of capitalism, sure, we could all say like on some level, maybe all money is somewhat dirty. But I, I just also think like, that's not. It's going to be very hard to run an organization on vibes.
- [16:24]
B
So something that we love to share or invite organizers to think about is that more people donate than they vote or go to church or any other civic or community engagement activity. So if we're trying to meet people where they are, which is the organizer's task is to meet with you, Rhea, get you passionate about this issue, get you to take action. Donors are actually our biggest potential base is how we think about it at Donor Organizer Hub. And in addition, when somebody donates, it becomes a deeper part of their identity. There's some data out there about how once somebody donates to a civic engagement cause, they are much more likely to be a lifetime voter. And we see that with labor unions. Right. With dues paying membership as a key, not only providing the, the fiscal, the sustainment of the labor, but it also creates the I'm a dues paying member identity and connection to the organization.
- [17:22]
A
Yeah, powerful.
- [17:23]
C
Can I, can I speak to the dirty money issue though? Because I'm wondering, Rhea, actually, are you a millennial?
- [17:32]
A
I am not. I'm a Gen Xer.
- [17:35]
C
Oh my God.
- [17:35]
A
Okay, I know. Anyway, hey, Gen Xer. I know. I'm like hanging on to the last year of Gen X. I'm like, don't, don't group me with those people. Not with those people. I'm with the Winona writers of the world.
- [17:48]
C
That's hilarious. The poor Gen Xers, because you such a small generation. Anyway, I'm wondering if it's more of a boomer thing, which I am obviously just this whole thing about money being dirty. What I want to say about that more specifically though is I think of money as a tool. It's a tool that's been used very badly to oppress people, to create vast inequality, which we see in our country right now. That's what's sort of bad and seriously problematic is the misuse and the unequal distribution. But the fact of money being a way to just exchange goods for services, that kind of thing, um, it's just a tool. And so I really try to talk people down from that cliff edge of oh my God, money is evil and we can't touch it.
- [18:32]
A
Yeah, yeah. The way that I thread that needle is. And look, this may not work for Everybody. But the reality is like, we do live in a capitalistic society. I think we all live in the tension of having to operate within it and also disrupt that which is evil about it. Right? So I, I, I don't think the answer is like, okay, then I'm just gonna take my tent and live in the woods and like, take my ball and go home. I'm like, well, how are you going to be part of the conversation if you don't have a seat at the table?
- [19:02]
C
Right?
- [19:02]
A
Yeah, you know, but again, like, this is me in my 40s. Like in my 20s, I probably would have been like, burn it all down. Right? I was like, I worked for Mother John magazine. I worked for the Bay Guardian. Like, I get it.
- [19:14]
C
But the other thing, I just want to say one of the things that I think this is true of fundraising in general, or actually any kind of non profit or community organizing, is to have the conversation. So if on your board people are, you know, saying, oh, I can't do this because blah, blah, blah, open it up, say, okay, what do other people think? You know, it's, it's a conversation. It's not like I'm the expert. I come in and tell you what to do and then you just do it. Because that doesn't really work. And someone is bound in the audience to say, you know what? I really don't agree with that. And I think we can all pitch in together and do X, Y or Z. So some, you know, that piece about engagement and, and you know, relationship building is another issue you talk about a lot in your podcast, Ria, and I really think it's so, so critical. We can't lose sight of that. And one of the ways you build relationships is by having conversations, not just telling people how to think or what to do.
- [20:02]
A
Say that again, Stephanie, because in 2025, I feel like we forgot that entirely. But I, I do like what you said because I often talk about fundraising as community organizing. You are simply organizing resources instead of people, but, like, as important to the cause. Like, I say this too. I'm like, even Gandhi had to fundraise, y'. All. Mother Teresa had to fundraise. Like, you think that, like, you don't have to do it. Everyone's a fundraiser out here. Okay, let me, let's get gritty with it. So I love in your book how you came up with very practical strategies, like the small dinners, like bullethons, like really actionable things that don't feel capital. F F fundraising. It's like, you know, I can do these things. I'm an everyday citizen. What are some of the strategies that are most surprising to you in terms of how effective they are? Hailey, let's start with you.
- [20:54]
B
Well, maybe I'll give a giveaway for the book. As we say, if you want to raise the most money the quickest, we say the one on one fundraising ask is the way to do it. The tricky bit, as I'm sure you know, Ria, is it, you know, it's tricky to get people excited about the idea of directly asking for money without some kind of event like you were.
- [21:14]
A
Yeah, yeah. I mean, listen, if. If one on one fundraising wasn't effective, I wouldn't have a job. Right. It's like you're 70% more likely to get a yes if you do it face to face. And I feel like a lot of folks because it can be uncomfortable. Default to email or please don't do that.
- [21:32]
C
Yeah, well, Ria, default to email, but also default to mass messages. Even a one on one email. I say, dear Haley, you know, so good to see you the other day on that podcast interview. And by the way, I've been meaning to talk to you about xyz.
- [21:45]
A
Then.
- [21:46]
C
It's a personal communication at least versus an E blast where I write everybody I know with the same canned, you know, pitch. So there's a difference there too. But yeah, you're right, the face to face is obviously the best, but.
- [21:57]
B
And actually that's a chapter that we added from the first edition, was a chapter at the beginning of the book on direct versus indirect asks. Because with the proliferation of mass email, of social media, of other means to, you know, it gets the message to you quickly in theory. But, Ria, do you really think that message is for you? It's not just a part of, you know, some sort of CRM blast versus if I'm reaching out to you like Ria, it's so great that we're connecting again after being on the podcast recently. I'm trying to raise a thousand bucks. I would love to ask you for $50. It's very different, right, than getting a sort of hey, click here, donate now sort of generic message, even if you're doing a little bit of segmenting there.
- [22:42]
A
Yeah, for sure. Well, especially with AI, you can personalize at scale, but again, I think with great power comes great responsibility. Right? Do not use this AI power to blast your whole list all of the time.
- [22:55]
B
Correct.
- [22:56]
C
We're getting enough of that from the Democratic Party.
- [22:59]
A
Sorry, ActBlue, I. I support them, but I did not Give them permission to give my cell phone number to every single person running for all of the things.
- [23:08]
C
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
- [23:10]
A
But I, I have to tell you, so I. In honor of Mr. Robert Redford, I, My husband and I watched all the President's Men this weekend. And we were looking, watching, and I was like, this is real, like, shoe leather reporting, right? Like, they, like, went into the streets and like, talked to the people and went door by door. And I was like, we need to get back to shoe leather fundraising. Not. And I just want to. Not the. You're showing up randomly at my door and asking for a donation. Because I do not like that. However, I think that there's something that we've lost with the face to face. I'm going to go meet the people where they are. I'm going to talk to them. I'm going to have them talk to me. I'm going to ask them what is most important to them. And I think we really. This is a very Gen X thing to say. I think we've lost the art of conversation. Friends. Stephanie, what do you say?
- [23:58]
C
Yes. Oh, yes. This is a favorite topic of my partner of mine. Oh, when, when have. Well, we have dinner with friends or we're out with my family or something, and at the end of the evening we're like, let's see, did anyone ask us a single question? Or did we actually. Or did we have an actual interaction beyond someone telling a story and then someone telling their story? Which could be fun, listening to stories. But what happened to like, oh, you said something. I'm like, could you say more about that? Or what do you mean by that? Or I'm not sure I agree with you. Let's talk about it. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I wanted to say something about the door to door for a minute because, you know, so I live in Berkeley. I live in a neighborhood. People can come to the door. And we do actually answer our door most of the time, not always. And I hope my neighbor doesn't hear this. Okay, so I have a neighbor who has a daughter who's in, Is a Girl Scout. And so she sells Girl Scout cookies once a year. Well, in the olden days, maybe. Haley, this is, you know, you know, before your time. The Girl Scouts would come to your door, especially a neighbor, right. And say, hey, we want to buy some cookies. And you would chat about, oh, so what are you doing in Girl Scouts? What badges do you have? You know, what do you like about the Girl Scouts? But now this young girl's mother Sends out an email to the we have a neighborhood list for emergency preparedness. And she sends out an email to the list saying, my daughter is selling Girl Scout cookies. Respond to this email and I'll let her know that you want to buy a box. I'm like, what now? Like, really? How is this girl, how is she going to learn what it is to sell, what it is to talk about her work, what it is to answer questions?
- [25:32]
A
Anyway, so, yeah, let me add a caveat here. If you have cookies, you are allowed to ring my doorbell.
- [25:39]
B
PSA building off of that too, with the. We've lost our conversation. A lot of times, new volunteers or board members, when they come to us, they're like, haley, I tried a direct pitch and it didn't work. And so, you know, just to kind of reflect, I ask, oh, what'd you do? What happened? And what they share with me is that they treat it like the potential donor is a Silicon Valley investor. And they're talking at them for a half hour about Rhea. So the impact that we're going to have. And I do ask if y' all.
- [26:08]
A
Are listening to this. You can't see my face, but I'm holding my head in despair. Please continue, Hailey.
- [26:16]
B
And so to Stephanie's point, about, did we even get through that dinner with anybody asking us a question? You know, I ask people, did you ask them a question about what's on their mind, what they care about, what they're worried about in this moment, what gives them hope? And they're like, oh. And so, you know, in thinking about the art of the direct ask, reminding people it's a conversation, it is not a monologue show.
- [26:39]
A
Yeah. 100 million bajillion percent. I think I have so much to say on this topic, but I am on a single woman mission, and you, you all can join me. Ditch the pitch. Nobody wants to hear your pitch. No one wants to be talked at for half an hour. Like, I. I've never met a single person who was like, you know what? I really want someone to just show me PowerPoint slides and just talk at me for half an hour. That's like my favorite thing ever. But I think because we are so insecure or nervous about the ask that we just, like, we couch it into talking too much and we throw information and we talk too fast. And I think it's. It's a symptom of a deeper problem, which is that you're uncomfortable and it's manifesting in this way.
- [27:25]
C
You know, I. I do want to say to Cut people a little slack, which I rarely do, but I'll do it now. You know, there, there was a. There is a long history, right, in fundraising of practicing a pitch, right. Telling your story, making a pitch. And I think what's valuable still about that is even if we're saying, yes, have a conversation, show some interest, you know, that your donor is also potential participant in your work beyond their gift. But if they say to you, okay, so Rhea, you just mentioned this animal rescue organization, so how exactly does that work? And then you at least have to be able to say fairly quickly without going on for 20 minutes. And so there is something about practicing responding to some of the key questions that people are going to ask. Right. So I just want to be careful. Not, I agree with you, ditch the pitch in general. But there's some specific ways you need to be able to speak to your issue that, you know, a lot of, especially board members are generally not comfortable with. They'll often say, well, the staff speaks better about this. Well, yeah, board member, you need to learn how to talk about it.
- [28:27]
A
Well, the thing that resonates with me the most is, and I did a board training this weekend and I saw it firsthand, is people will respond when they see how much you care about the thing. Right. And therefore, the pitch, if you will, that I really recommend people focus on is a very succinct story about why do you care personally about this thing and why then should we collectively care and why does it matter now? And get that down to three sentences. And I'm just going to offer some. A magic thing here which is not. My brainchild is Laura Friedrichs. I want to name check her. But prefacing it either via email or a conversation, I have no idea if this is for you because you really don't, you really don't know if this is for them. But if it is for them, like you invite them to the next step. And so for me, it's always thinking about, what's that next step I can invite someone to take without ramming them. Right. We're not bulldozing people, but we are creating invitations for them to step forward.
- [29:31]
C
Yeah, absolutely.
- [29:33]
A
Okay, so let's talk about the connection between community organizing and grassroots fundraising, because I think that there's a lot of similarities here. But Stephanie, let's start with you. What lessons can we learn from the most influential best community organizing, and how do we apply that to fundraising?
- [29:57]
C
So, Ray, you actually said something earlier about this, that fundraising is about organizing resources and organizing, community organizing is about Organizing people. And I think that's a big foundational piece that I agree with. And I think that community organizing has developed and I think fundraising has too. But community organizing has developed a whole process of leadership development. So you bring people in and you get them engaged in a very minimal level. Show up to something, go to an action, participate in a meeting. Then you learn more skills. You learn how to facilitate a meeting. You learn how to have a one on one conversation with a potential member of your organization. Right. You learn how to give testimony at a city council hearing about some cause in your community, some policy change you're advocating for. Then you develop more leadership and like that. And I think that kind of ladder of leadership development is very well honed in a lot of community organizing spaces. And even though as fundraisers, some of us have tried to do the same, I think it's less. It's less evolved for most people. I don't know if I'm saying that right. Do you want to add something, Haley, to that?
- [31:06]
A
Yeah.
- [31:06]
B
One of the strategies that we talk about, there's nine different strategies in the book. One of them is pledge based events. So bullethons like you were mentioning, Ria. And something that we encourage people to think about for that is, let's say we are doing a bolon. I ask you, Ria, to donate. You sound super excited, Rhea. Do you also want to be a participant in the bolathon and get some pledges so then you become a fundraiser. I come from the world of multi level marketing, so hear me out here, you know, building your sound.
- [31:36]
A
Very Avon lady, which I'm kind of into.
- [31:39]
B
But you know, if I invite a couple of people to fundraise and they say yes, I become a coach, isn't that cool? You know, and I'm coaching Ria, I'm coaching Stephanie. We're all getting our, you know, pledges for our bolon participation. So thinking about how somebody can go from donor to fundraiser to coach.
- [31:57]
A
Yeah. And you know, I think the thing that both of you hit on, which is sort of implied, but I think should be said out loud, is how are we adding value to the folks that we're asking money from? Right. So it's not just am I taking from you, but how am I also giving to you? How am I giving you an opportunity to be part of a community or how am I giving you a sense of purpose? How am I giving you a sense of impact? So I'm just curious, like, how are you thinking about both asking from and giving to potential donors? Let's start with you.
- [32:30]
B
So regardless, even if somebody says no to my ask, they're learning, you know, if we go back to the pothole, you know, we're going to hold city council accountable to fix that pothole. We need 5,000 bucks. Ria, it's not your neighborhood, it's not your pothole. But you know that there's a problem. You have some friends that can plug in. So even if you get a no answer in the fundraising, the person that says no has some knowledge where it could actually support. They can provide connections. When somebody says yes, they're being invited to feel good. We want to feel like generous and principled people. We want to feel like we're a part of a cause that's something bigger than ourselves. And, you know, from a practical standpoint, you probably get added to an email newsletter so you get invited to more events, activities, events, and other fun things related to said cause.
- [33:15]
C
And if I can add, you know, one of the issues that I've worked on for probably 20 years now is a very controversial one around Palestine and ending Israeli. Well, now genocide, but primary previously, the occupation. And one of the benefits of fundraising for the organization that I've been part of is that it opens up conversations with people who are like, yeah, you know, I have. I felt kind of strange. This is a Jewish organization. So Jews saying, well, I don't know about being critical of Israel. And once you can have a conversation, answer questions, and ask them questions about what their relationship is to the issue, it also shifts. I mean, public opinion on Israel and Palestine has hugely shifted. Right. In the last couple of years, and it's partly through organizing, and part of that has also been fundraising. So to me, it opens doors for more. Like, how do you. How do you make the change you want to make? It is partly through fundraising, but it can't stop at I'm asking you for a gift and then thanking you and then sending you a newsletter. It has to be, how can you join the cause in some way? And it doesn't have to be a cause as dramatic or controversial as Palestine, but it is just an example.
- [34:25]
A
Yeah. And I'm curious from your perspective for grassroots fundraisers in particular, I think, obviously we're living in a time right now where everything feels like it's cranked up to level 10 all of the time. And I'm wondering, how do you think that impacts grassroots fundraisers? Because, you know, often they are perhaps fundraising on behalf of issues that could be controversial or could invite some kind of feeling. Right. Anger Perhaps depending on what they're fundraising on behalf of. I'm curious, like, do you feel like that's been a deterrent for new folks who are willing to fundraise?
- [35:01]
C
You know, it's funny you ask that because one of the things that comes up used to come up in trainings. It hasn't as much recently. But if it's, if it's a group that's not from coming from different organizations, not all one organization, as people will say, well, the issue that I work on is very controversial and it is very hard to raise money for it because, you know, there's so much disagreement in the community. And my answer to that is, you know, what controversial issues are the easiest thing to raise money for because you know where people stand, right? I know where my friends stand on reproductive rights or free speech or Palestine. Now, if I don't know, I'll find out pretty quickly. So I'm not going to ask the people who are all about pro Israel all the time. I'm not going to ask them to give to my cause. So I think. But the people who believe in things I believe in feel pretty passionate about it. Wouldn't you say that it's not like, well, climate change we haven't gotten into. But, you know, most of us probably believe climate change is a bad thing and it's probably something that's going to kill us. But. Yeah, but those climate change deniers, I'm not going to ask them to support my cause. What would be the point?
- [36:06]
B
I think a key thing too, especially with volunteers, is they are looking, you know, for their, their own $50 and the, you know, a thousand dollars that they raised from their friends to have a meaningful impact. And oftentimes the controversial issues have some really deeply meaningful impacts of those small dollars. And so that gets people very fired up not only to donate, but also to become a volunteer fundraiser. So at least recently, and, you know, it might be just the moment that we're in, in this country right now, in this world, but we have seen that controversial issues actually have the highest concentration of volunteer fundraiser interest relative to those who donate. So the highest conversion from somebody going to, from a donor to a volunteer fundraiser.
- [36:50]
A
Okay, last question for me. And if you, if you haven't, if you don't have a great answer, that's okay. But I, and I'm trying not to bash the younger generation here, but I. Quick story. So I, he doesn't listen to this podcast, so I feel comfortable with this. I took my nephew, my husband, and I took Our nephews to Europe this summer as a high school graduation present. And they spent a lot of time on their phones to the, you know, we were in Lisbon, it was this Saturday night. They're 18 years old. I'm like, boys go out and they're like, no, no, I'm, I'm going to watch YouTube for two hours. I'm like, cool, cool, cool. So the question I have is, I mean I'm, and this is just a hypothesis, but I'm seeing younger people feeling very socially disconnected from others. And I think of philanthropy as inherently community based and inherently based in like I care about my fellow humans, I want to do good things for my, I want to invest in my community, however I define that. So I'm just curious, do you think that the disconnection that we're feeling as young people will affect philanthropy or people who are willing to fundraise? I know, big question, you're not sociologist, but love to get your perspective on that.
- [38:07]
B
I can start. So we train a lot of 14 to 24 year olds. I would put that as a category.
- [38:15]
A
Get the baby fundraisers out there.
- [38:17]
B
And something that we notice because one group that we trained of volunteers, they live on a discord. They've never met in person. Actually they don't even have their real names with each other because gamers use, you know, sort of usernames. They found their own ways to fundraise like starting Twitch live streams where it's like that hot wing eating show where they hotter and hotter wings and get pledges that way. So in short, you know, I think a start to this answer is as organizers do, meeting people where they're at and you know, with those that are staring at their phones. What are you doing on those phones? Oh, do you want to join this online community of other weirdos that are on their phones all the time looking at this certain issue. Oh cool. And this Discord community actually specifically targets gamers, young gamers and brings them onto a discord to do civic engagement activities. So phone banking, canvassing, other things to get people to vote. Stephanie, you want to take it from there really?
- [39:17]
C
But I will. I do have a question though which is I have read recently that there's a little bit of a blowback from gen zers or maybe whatever is the generation after that to go back to more analog ways of being in the world. So I'm just wondering if things are going to kind of come around. Of course we're never going to be out of the digital world. Of course not. I'm not even advocating for that, but I do think there are probably some ways people are starting to say, you know, it would be nice to have some, some face time. And I was reading an article about teachers who, you know, make their students put their phones in this, you know, somewhere before they come into class and they can't use their phones in class. And I was asking, actually, I was asking the other day, a professor friend of mine, how, how does she make sure, not make sure, but how does she know when someone's paper has been written by AI exclusively? They just put something to AI and turn in the paper. And she said she actually makes them do writing exercises in class. Like they have to hand answers to questions. And so then she can see how they're thinking about something. So I'm just thinking there are ways to work around that, even as we still have to, as, as Haley's example is a great one of just going with the trend as well.
- [40:25]
B
It's funny that you say that, Stephanie, because I mostly train adults, not very young people, but I have started doing flip charting when going in in person trainings because I have realized for even our older adult brains, the slides come up and it gives you the excuse to open up your laptop and your cell phone and you're multitasking and you think you're both responding to emails and listening to training, but you're probably not doing either effectively. And there's something about going back to the analog mode of flip charts where people are more experientially there.
- [40:55]
A
Oh, that's such a good, that's a good tip. Fun thing I just saw in the New York Times, I think it was this week where the headline was ditch the dating Apps, Sit at the bar instead. Oh, my, my husband is a bartender, so I know that that really hits all the notes for him. Like, yeah, people need to just talk to each other. Like bite other drinks, flirt with each other. So, hey, listen, we're going all the way back, friends, taking it analog. All right, as we are wrapping up, any last thoughts that we haven't covered.
- [41:26]
C
Today, I do want to add one thing about the book. And this is something I learned as an editor of the Grassroots Fundraising Journal for many years, which some, some people remember and some never heard of that in addition to having this, the mindset shifts we talked about and the strategies around getting people comfortable with asking for money and demystifying fundraising is also people really want the practical, like, how do I actually do that thing and how do I do it without the CRM and without all of the bells and whistles of a more established non profit. So I think just really giving people tools to. Yeah. Carry out a certain kind of event or a peer to peer campaign or a direct ask campaign. I think that's, that's really important. People really are hungry for that.
- [42:11]
B
I was just going to add on to that that even I, as somebody that trains thousands of people each year to do common things like host house parties or do one on one asks with our friends. Refer to the book that Stephanie and I wrote to figure out, okay, how much lead time do you need? Okay. Six to eight weeks for a house party. Great. What do each of those weeks look like? Line by line. What do you need to get done and who needs to step up and be a part of it.
- [42:32]
A
Yeah. And I will say I really appreciate about the book that you demystified it and it made it seem actionable for everyday people because I do think fundraising is already quite daunting. And then when you add in, you know, the CRMs and the, the certain like Logan, the certain lingo that we use and it just feels like, oh I, I don't know about any of that. Right. But at the end of the day it's person to person. We're just making friends. So Haley, Stephanie, thank you so much for being on the show. We'll make sure that there is a link to the accidental fundraiser in the show. Notes for folks who want to pick it up. And if you're out here listening and you're thinking I can't be a fundraiser, I'm going to say yes you can.
- [43:09]
B
You absolutely can. Thank you so much for having us, Rhea.
- [43:13]
A
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