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Hey you, it's Rhea Wong.
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If you're listening to nonprofit Load on, I'm pretty sure that you'd love my weekly newsletter. Every Tuesday morning, you get updates on
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the newest podcast episodes.
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And then interspersed, we have fun special invitations for newsletter subscribers only and fundraising inspo because I know what it feels like to be in the trenches alone. On top of that, you get cute dog photos. Best of all, it is free. So what are you waiting for? Head over to riawong.com now to sign up foreign. Welcome to nonprofit Lowdown.
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A
I'm your host, Rhea Wong. Hey podcast listeners, it's Rhea Wong with you once again. So that must mean it is non profit Lowdown. Today I am super excited because I am speaking to my friend Maria Rio. She is the CEO and founder of Free Further Together Fundraising. I'm the host of the small nonprofit podcast in lovely Canada. It's like my second home. I love me some Canada. Maria, welcome to the show.
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C
Hey. So excited to be here.
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A
So excited to have you. You're a second time guest. I think it's always so fun to hang out.
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C
Nice. I feel like I could always talk to you for hours. So this is a great way to get other people as part of the conversation.
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A
Yeah. Well, the funny thing is like we were chatting it up for half an hour before we started taping about all of the things personal. We always have a good time together. But Maria, before we jump into today's topic, which I think is really, really important, tell us a little bit about yourself and your journey in the nonprofit world. Because I know a lot of us out here are accidental fundraisers. I know you are too.
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C
Yeah. So my name is Maria Rio. I'm based out of Toronto, Ontario, Canada and I've been fundraising for almost 15 years, which feels insane to say. I started as a face to face fundraiser for a company called Public Outreach. It's an agency fundraising that does streets, malls, all the fundraising. And then I moved into nonprofit proper. But for me, something that's really interesting about my story is that I've used charitable services myself. So I came to Canada as a refugee when I was nine years old. I lived in a World Vision refugee shelter for six months with my mom and my sibling. And that just fueled my whole understanding of nonprofit and my whole interest in becoming involved. So when I met this face to face fundraising company, they were actually fundraising for World Vision. And I'm like, I want people to see the impact that they're making when they donate. And I want to be that person that tells them about it. So now I've been doing this for a long time, all because of other fundraisers making that impact in my life. Now I want to carry that forward. And I started further together a few years ago to really speak to leaders, executive directors, who want to do things in a radical way. So they want to do fundraising better, more aligned with their values, and they want to actually affect systemic change.
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A
I love that. So let's get into this because you and I have so much to talk about. But one of the things that I think a lot about, I know you do too, is how we engage in what I'll call ethical storytelling. So we know that storytelling and narrative is really at the heart of effective fundraising for various reasons. Why we won't get into the brain science, but it's scientifically proven. Just trust us on this one, guys. But I think a lot of us have been either participating in or been on the receiving end of what I'll call poverty porn. Just very icky. I always think about those commercials in the 80s with kids with flies in their faces or the shelter dogs Sarah McLaughlin playing in the background. It's effective. I have an emotional reaction to, but when I really think about it intellectually is, does this feel right? I mean, it's almost I'm a spectator and I'm looking at this and thinking, oh, these poor, pitiful people. And there's a real power dynamic. So I think my question to you is, how do we as fundraisers engage in storytelling that feels ethical, that feels values aligned, that feels it's not poverty porn.
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C
So fundraisers actually have a lot of power. Sometimes we feel, oh, I need to ask my board if I can tell stories in a different way and be tapping into inspiration instead of guilt. And we don't need to do that. We have a lot of power in how we talk about our community and also how we build those relationships with different types of donors. So I think this conversation is really important for all types of fundraisers. Whether you're building one to many relationships or one to one, you are the voice of the organization and you are the person responsible for shaping what. For shaping how someone understands a problem that you're facing. So if you minimize the problem to say, hey, we gave out food hampers and that's enough, we're doing great and you should continue to give us money so we can continue to give out hampers. That's not really educating the donor on the true skill of the problem and the cause, why that's happening. So in many cases, it's policy that's creating a barrier for people experiencing poverty to break out of it. Right. So instead of saying, hey, we have hampers and we're doing a great job and you're amazing, thanks for doing it with us. We can say, hey, I love that we're doing this. This is important work. We should continue to do this. But long term, we want to be thinking about advocacy. We want you to be protesting with us, signing petitions with us. We want you to understand that these people are experiencing poverty not because of a personal feeling, but because they are on social assistance. That's too low. And they're very close to being precariously housed, if not already. So there's other barriers in their life that can't be solved through nonprofits or can't be solved through one nonprofit working alone. So by bringing those donors into the conversation, you're helping them become better partners for your organization. So not just, oh, I felt bad, so I gave them $10,000. I gave them $10 a month. Right. But actually, I am a partner in this work. I'm equally invested as this fundraiser, this executive director, in moving the needle in the right direction. So not just handing out hampers while it's important, but handing out hampers and doing the systemic advocacy work to actually change the life of those people. Because, yes, handing out hampers is really impactful, and that's just the example that I'm using today. But that person is not going to be able to retire. They're not going to be able to go on vacation. They're not going to be able to live very dignified lives. And I think every single person is entitled to that. But if we keep sanitizing the problem for our donors, they can't step up the way that we need them to to actually affect that change alongside us.
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A
I think that is a good point that you're trying to contextualize for your donor the bigger problem than just, hey, this is not just you're feeding people for tomorrow, but how do we change the system? Bigger picture, so you don't have to continue to hand out hampers every day. We actually have a system that supports people. I'm curious, though, when we get into the more nitty, gritty details, because what we know is, as a donor, when we talk about policy, my brain shuts off.
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C
I'm like, wah.
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A
The minute you say policy, my brain. And so we know that the power of individual stories to move resources. Talk to me a little bit about the perspective you have of what makes a good nonprofit Story.
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C
I have a very strict formula to my nonprofit story. So a problem that one person experienced told through their perspective. And I'll share some questions that I ask service users to get the best answers in a way that's very dignified and very trauma informed. But first, a problem that is clear and is measured to one person just because otherwise you make the donor feel they're doing a drop in the bucket and that reduces their chance of giving. So one person's problem, that person experienced a solution through your organization. So that specific solution that you offer to that problem will be the next step of your story. The results. So the short term immediate results. So maybe it is a hamper and then the long term impact. So now that they've been able to feed their family, what are they going to be able to do next? They can use the rest of their money to buy medicine or to get to work. Right. To get that promotion. So I that's how I structure any good story. And I do weave storytelling in all my communications. So whether it's an email appeal or a website copy or anything that you want to make sure that you're being very clear about the impact that your organization has. And you can't do that if they don't know the problem. You can't do that if they don't understand the work that you do, that solution, or the impact that you're having short term and long term. When it comes to the questions that I want to be asking the service users, I have 10 questions. It's called My 10 Dignified Questions. Downloadable. I can happily share it with your audience. But basically the first question is, can you tell me a little bit about yourself? So it enables that service user to actually position themselves however they would like without you putting oversight on them. So they say, I'm a parent or I'm a mechanic or I'm non binary. And these are things that are useful for your storytelling, but don't exploit that person's experience. So you're not saying what was it like living in a shelter? No, that's very traumatizing. Right. But you can say, why did you first come to our organization in the first place? And they can share as much or as little as they would. Right. So really baking in that agency to share as much or as little as they would is really important. And then also really baking in that consent every step of the way. So before you interview them, while you're interviewing them and before you share this story, so it could be, I'm going to share it in a grant report, or I'm going to share it in a video, or I'm going to share it when I'm talking to people. You just want them to know how you're going to be sharing it and how long you're going to be sharing it. For once you get those really heartfelt answers that you don't have to ask exploitative questions to receive.
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A
Yeah. It's so interesting, too, because I was thinking about something I heard a while ago, which is, we should tell stories from our scars, not our wounds. And by that, I. I think sometimes when we're asking people these stories, it can be very triggering and traumatizing if they're still in the middle of it.
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C
Right.
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If they're still dealing with it, as opposed to asking them afterwards and letting them look back and say, that was a hard moment that I ultimately learned from, or I triumphed, or there was some positive result. But if you're in the middle of it, it's really hard to reclaim it as a story of power.
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C
And it also eliminates the opportunity to show that results and that impact. Right. Because if they're in the middle of it, they're just going through the problem or the solution stage of the story, which means that you don't have the complete story. Sometimes not telling a complete story can be very powerful when it comes to fundraising, because, hey, Maria had to use the food bank, and then the food bank closed. That's why we exist. Right. So it's leaves it unresolved and it helps the donor see, okay, I need to step up here. Right. But ideally, you have a full story, so you can continue to nail that impact, because once they gave you money, I want to know what you're going to do with it, and I want to see that you did it, that you are qualified to do it. Right. So I think it can work. But ideally, you have the full story.
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A
It's interesting because I used the framework of the hero's journey to think about our work as fundraisers. And I think the mistake that a lot of us make is that we positioned the organization as the hero of the story as opposed to the guide. And what I hear you saying is this is about positioning the person that you're helping as the hero and the organization as the guide or mentor that helps them achieve the result. Is that an accurate representation?
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C
I would say that's pretty close. But something that I don't want to get into in my stories is putting someone as the hero. So I don't think the donor is the hero. And I don't think the service user is the hero, but I do want to position them as someone who is being working through barriers. So when we're talking about story brand or framework, they would fall into the hero role. But I just don't want to sensationalize their experience because usually if they've broken out of poverty, it's an exception, not a rule. Right. So I don't think people should be exceptional to expect dignity, to expect basic living conditions and all that stuff. And that's something that we do a lot in our day to day. So we talk about that person started a new side gig on the side and now they're doing their business and now they're thriving. You shouldn't have to be exceptional to thrive. So that's my, my one caveat there. But otherwise, if you're using the story brand framework, I think that placing the service user in the role of the hero makes a lot of sense. The organization should never be the hero. You're always the guide because you are that expert, that thought leader that's guiding either the service user or the donor into what that effective change would be.
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A
And let's talk about this because I think that there is a misconception and I think a lot of you know, what we're going to call the donor centric storytelling and the savior storytelling has really tainted our sector. And so when I think about storytelling and when I counsel my clients to think of themselves as guides to the donor's story, as guides to the hero's journey, how do you think about that? Because I think it is an important but fine distinction between saviorism and heroism and positioning them as, let's call them, main character energy.
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C
Yes. So when we talk about positioning someone as the hero, we're talking about a very specific writing framework. So we're not talking about. They are literally the hero of the stuff that you see in donor centricity where it's, you did this, you were
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A
amazing, you saved the day. Without you, this wouldn't exist. Yeah, I hate that. It's the worst.
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C
Yeah. So we're not talking about setting them up as literal heroes. It's kind of a writing tool that we're discussing in this conversation of they are the hero, which means they need to walk through this journey. Right. So they're going to go on a journey and that journey is understanding the problem and doing something about it. That's basically what the hero writing framework is about. So someone who's going on a journey and they do different things on that journey. So they meet a guide who gives them more information. So that would be the organization, you are the guide. And then help some realize their full potential in that journey. Right. So again, the service user could also be the hero. It's just a framework. And the organization could be a hero. It's just the framework that you use to tell a story about a journey. It's not necessarily, oh, you're literally a hero, which is what we see a lot in donor centricity. You literally changed someone's lives. You did it. And a lot of the time that's completely overblown. You're not changing someone's lives by giving them a hamper. You might be if it's a cancer research trial, and you should definitely say it that way if it is. But you really want to be mindful of how you position your donor and your organization, because no one's saving anybody. Right. We're all working together towards a systemic solution. That's the goal. Partnership.
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A
Yeah, 100%. The way that I explain it to you is if the donor is in their regular life as the guide, as the Yoda, as I would call it, we are actually calling them to adventure. So what is the adventure? Is the adventure we are going to feed X number of people is the adventure we're going to change policies. We have an opportunity be ahead of us. Do you want to be on this adventure with us then as a guide, we help them to realize their victory. And the victory is, yes, you were part of this change, you helped be part of the solution, you participated, whatever. And then they get to return to their regular life with an enhanced identity of, yeah, I'm the kind of person to do that. And actually it's interesting because we're looping back to our original conversation that we had offline, which is it's all identity based. So if I believe that I'm the kind of person that supports education, or I'm the kind of person that believes in helping food insecurity or whatever, the more you can allow me to tell that story of who I believe I am, the more I'm going to be partnered with you.
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C
Right.
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A
Because we want to partner with people who are aligned with the story that we tell ourselves.
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C
I think it really comes down to core beliefs. Right. If you're telling the right type of stories and scaling the problem and the solution appropriately and sharing your beliefs as an organization, you'll attract the people who share those beliefs and who want to be part of that mission. Right. And you'll also Push away people who don't believe those things. So that's why I always encourage people at organizations, leaders, and fundraisers to share their beliefs as loudly as possible, versus sometimes. Oh, I don't want to say that it might push away donors. My board might not get X, Y, and Z, but it's actually one of the easiest fundraising tools because you're tapping into the donor's core identity and their beliefs. And something that my therapist said, which I thought was amazing, was people are willing to die for their beliefs. Right. That's how closely held people hold their beliefs. So if you can tap into something that it's not only so powerful for them to actually give you a gift and become involved, but it also helps them become part of the solution when it comes to systemic change. So advocacy, talking to the representatives, getting other people involved. Right. Because it's in alignment with who they are as a person.
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A
Yeah. I love that you're saying this. And you happen to be in free Canada. So I think right now, in the US Especially in. Under the Trump administration, I think we've saw a lot of nonprofits feel they really needed to be less vocal about their beliefs. They were scrubbing DEI language. We scrubbed language about, here's who we serve, and I understand why, especially if it's tied to any kind of funding. And I think we're looking for courage, and we're looking for people who are willing to stand up and say, this is what I believe in. This is who we serve and be unapologetic. And the core of it is it does take courage. It does take the courage of your conviction to be public and vocal, especially when you're getting pressure otherwise.
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C
And I would say shit or get off the pot. We have really intense problems going on right now. There's people who are being actively caged and deported and kidnapped off the streets, away from their family. So if you can't be the person holding the megaphone and corralling your community to take action, move on. We need that bravery. And it's not acceptable for you to just sit there, take up that seat, and not be speaking out very clearly and loudly for democracy, for your communities, for people who are being most impacted just to keep your job. I would say if you're in that situation, really rethink if you're the right person for the role, because this is a moment that really requires leadership and courage. And if you don't have those abilities, then I would encourage you to move on.
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A
It's funny. I'll just share this with you because you're also a podcaster. But on Apple podcasts, someone gave me a one star review because they were, is this a political podcast or about nonprofits? And at first I was like, what? And then I was good. This shows me first of all that we're not, you're not my people, that's fine. But also it showed me that I was clear about my values. I was clear about what I stood, I was clear about what I believed in. And if that is upsetting, if that clarity, it shows people that you should not be in my universe. And great, that just saves time.
- [19:50]
C
I. A lot of us get into this work because it's so closely tied to our identity that spending time on those people who are no, I'm pro Zionist or I'm pro police or whatever can become super exhausting, right? Because you're keep educating them or keep trying to move them in the right direction when instead you could already find people who share those beliefs and move faster and move like in the same direction together, growing in the same direction rather than always be turning sideways and getting confused and having to do the same education over and over again because we don't have that many resources, we don't have that much time. So getting clear on our beliefs and finding people who share those beliefs is such a high priority rather than trying to bring along people who don't even share your beliefs.
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A
The one thing I will say to that though, and I'd be curious about your thoughts, is I felt a couple of years ago we got into almost liberal purity test where if we didn't agree on every single thing on every single issue, then we couldn't be in coalition. And it almost felt. My friend came up with this analogy which I thought was really apt. She's like, it's, we're in a circle and it's a firing squad. We're all just firing at each other. Because if I don't believe X, Y and Z and we're not perfectly aligned, then we are not values aligned. And I do think, think that it's important to understand where your values are. And it's also, I think important to understand that we don't have to 100% agree on every single thing for us to be in partnership together.
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C
I think this actually speaks to a larger problem, not just in the left, although this is a pretty big problem in the left. But also everyone wants a village. No one wants to be a villager. We're so uncomfortable with discomfort, right? We can get everything at our fingertips from our phone we don't even have to interact with real people anymore. You could just talk to Chatg however you want. Right. And it's leading to being unable to have these conversations and being unable to change people's mind because you're not meeting other people. Actually, I'm watching this YouTuber lately, and she used to be a super mega, was born Mormon, raised Mormon, and she actually recently became de radicalized. And she said one of the main things that helped her was she had neighbors who were lesbians who she had been taught to pretty much hate her entire life, were always nice to her. And she's. These people are nice to me, and the people at church are mean to me. So by having those conversations and interactions with people who are not you, it bridges that gap to the point where people can actually start to think logically. Because right now, a lot of people think emotionally and they're not really looking for things that disprove their worldview.
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A
Yeah. So interesting how this comes back, because one of the things I've really been reflecting on is that change happens when people feel safe. Right. So me yelling at you about you shouldn't think this and da, da, da, da, and you're being a fascist usually has the opposite effect. It hardens people's position to coming from a place of curiosity and understanding. Why is it that you think that?
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C
I think so I'm going to go back to this MAGA YouTuber because she actually.
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A
What's her name? I'm really curious about this now.
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C
Let me go find it one second.
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A
Because I actually am genuinely curious about people that are. Even Marjorie Taylor Greene, who seems to maybe have been a little de radicalized. I'm like, what happened? What. What happens when you so dramatically change your position on something?
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C
Oh, here it is. Life Take Two is her channel name.
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A
Oh, interesting. Okay, I'm gonna check it out. Life Take Two.
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C
But she said one of the things that the right does really well to grow their base is they just invite people over for dinner. So little things that. Where they're slowly building the community and just being kill you with kindness is basically what the Mormon church does, is what she was saying. Kill you with kindness because it makes you feel safe and it's easier to adopt a new belief when you feel you're with people that are similar to you, nice people who want to talk to you and your neighbors. Right. So I think something that would be really helpful in you radicalizing people is just making people feel safe so they can understand a different world perspective. Because even in that Other group, other book that I was telling you about by Chase Hughes about how to influence people, it's all about shifting their identity little by little. So yeah, one day you're anti immigrants for whatever reason, but if you have a conversation with someone who is an immigrant and who you respect, maybe that changes your perspective a little bit. And maybe the next time that you bump into someone who has that identity, you shift a little bit more.
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A
Yeah, it's interesting.
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B
Have you read Chris Voss?
- [24:34]
C
Yes, of course.
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A
Same thing, right? He's, he's. You don't go in as an FBI hostage to go to. All right, this is how it's going to be, right? You go in trying to understand their perspective, trying to understand their view of the world, trying to understand why they're doing what they're doing. And I think it's really interesting because I think we have this perspective effectives. Persuasion is I'm just gonna go in hard, but actually it's about going in soft.
- [24:59]
C
Going in soft and sticking to your values, but also giving people the opportunity to make mistakes as they're on their own journey. I don't think I would have been the nicest person to this life, take two lady, if I had met her five years ago or something. Well, seeing where she is on her journey now. Oh, I see how you were brainwashed, manipulated from child, from birth. Right. So you don't understand everyone's lived experience and you don't understand if they've been manipulated. Also another thing that I would encourage people to look into is Shiny Happy people. Season two also talks about the white nationalism, Christian nationalism happening in the States and how a lot of it started from brainwashing youth right away when they're very vulnerable would. They don't. They are still developing their identity. They're still developing, developing that sense of self. And when an adult is telling you this is what you should believe, you should be in the army for God using this militarized language. You just do it because you're young and vulnerable. Right. And you never question it because it's how everyone in your community is raised. So I thought it was a very interesting look into how people become magnified and a little bit unwell. That, but also thinking about how to bring them back from that and give them the opportunity and grace to be brought back versus no, you're dead to us forever. Never speak to me again. Right. Everyone makes mistakes. And I think about 22 year old Maria who was trying to figure out why is it wrong for white people to wear dreadlocks Right. I definitely saw people that I respected talking about it and that gave me the opportunity to think about things differently. Right. But at the time, if they had been, fuck you, get out of here, never talk to me again, it would have been hard for me to think about things differently because I wouldn't have been exposed to. There are different thoughts. Right?
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A
Yeah.
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C
So it made a huge change for me.
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A
Yeah. Well, I think that's just also the maturity because I think when we're young, I'll speak for myself. When I was young, I was very black and white. It was, you're this or you're that. You're with us or you're against us. And as you get older, oh, the world is full of shades of gray and everyone is on their own journey. Actually, I work with my spiritual therapist and he's. Everyone's on their own royal road. You can't make them be on a different road. They're just on their own royal road. And we may not agree, we may not see things the same way. And that's okay. There are lots of other people in the world. And I was like, oh, yeah. But okay, you're right. Okay, last question. Because we can go on and on forever. But one thing I know that you're very passionate about is how do you educate donors? Because I certainly have had donors and board members that I've been.
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C
Whoa.
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A
They've said things that seem low key, racist. Right. Or had ideas about things that I, I found to be problematic. And on the one hand, I, I also want to be like, look, we don't have to agree on all of the things. Right. I don't necessarily feel it's my responsibility to re educate because that's also exhausting. And I also think there is an opportunity. So can you walk us through a little bit of how do you talk to donors who may not even be aware of things? The power imbalances in capitalism or white supremacy and fundraising and all of these very deep and systemic issues.
- [28:18]
C
So I want to first gauge where the donor is on their own learning. A lot of them took the murder of George Floyd as a learning opportunity to really think about their wealth, their positionality, their power over nonprofits. So some of them will really surprise you with how far they are already thinking about this. Actually, in my last in house role, I felt my donors were doing a better job thinking things through than my board members. So just want to start there. But to assess if someone knows anything about this, I would start with, hey, my name is Maria Rio. My pronouns Are she and her. And see what they say. If they tell me their pronouns and that's not something that they balk at, then I can see, okay, great, maybe I can talk about racism or capitalism. Right. And then after that, I can say the words white supremacy very comfortably. But if they don't understand pronouns, I feel that's a really easy way to be. Oh, here's why we share pronouns. Right. It seems low stakes. It's something that will probably not impact that donor personally unless they are trans. Right. But it will be a really easy, low stakes thing for them to learn about. That doesn't make them feel personally attacked, which when you talk about racism, wealth hoarding stuff, it can make them feel a little bit attacked. But I also tell them that, look, you play a role in the nonprofit industrial complex because you're funding piecemeal solutions. I play a role in the nonprofit industrial complex as a fundraiser because I'm fundraising for piecemeal solutions. That's why this isn't enough. We need to step up in different ways. So I have to also acknowledge that I'm part of the problem right now as well. And I don't have a perfect solution because we work in capitalism, but we need to at least be able to talk about it and make space to imagine different solutions because what we're doing isn't working. And I think also really tying it back to the systemic barriers that your service users are facing. So, hey, people aren't poor because it's a personal feeling. They're poor because of barriers. Redlining, for example. Right. I think really makes it clear as to how past decisions have created current conditions and how our current decisions will impact future conditions.
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A
Yeah. The last question, though, it feels exhausting, right? Because if we're out here, especially right now in 2026 in the US it just feels we are constantly dealing with this onslaught of crises and issues that are coming up that we. Issues. But here they are. And so what would be your words of advice to fundraisers who already just feel overwhelmed trying to maintain their own sense of calm and peace in this world? And the idea of, oh, God, now I have to take on the responsibility of educating these donors? I. Maria, I just, I cannot.
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C
It is exhausting. I think our jobs are exhausting every single day. Equity work is never easy and there's usually something at risk. Know that's going into these conversations. But also know your positionality. If you're a white lady, you have a lot more safety than someone else who is having these conversations and doesn't have positionality. But something that I would encourage is looking into rest is resistance. It's this concept by Tricia Hershey. And it's all about how rest is anti capitalist and how doing more actually helps you. Sorry. How doing less actually helps you do more. Right. Because you can think smarter, you can imagine. Right. Keeping you exhausted is by design. Right. So it is part of the nonprofit industrial complex. It is part of capitalism to keep you so tired that you can't imagine something better. So by moving away from that, you are actually engaging in anti capitalist behavior that can tangibly improve the world.
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A
Yeah.
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C
It.
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A
You're so deep. One of the things I'm really working through personally is not equating my worth to my productivity. And this is. It's deep, man. It's the society, it's my family. So we have to deprogram ourselves, y'. All.
- [32:16]
C
It's true.
- [32:17]
A
All right, Maria, we could talk forever and ever, but we do have to end this. I'm going to make sure to put all of your information in the show notes along with some of the resources that you mentioned. But friend, thank you so much. This is always such a pleasure to chat with you. And folks, if you are looking for fundraising solutions, especially is there a particular size organization that you're working with?
- [32:37]
C
500,000 to 3 million seems to be the sweet spot for people who are looking for fractional fundraisers. If your organization is a little bit smaller than that, we can support with fundraising plans or for organizations of any size. Love it.
- [32:51]
A
And the thing is, I know that there are people out here looking for fractional help because I hear about people looking for development directors every day of the week. So if you are looking, check out Maria Rio. We'll put her info in the show notes. And Maria, my friend, as always, thank you so much for being with us.
- [33:07]
C
Thanks for having me. This was always so, so lovely.
- [33:10]
A
Thanks so much and we'll see you soon.
- [33:12]
B
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