A (3:10)

As you're talking, I was thinking a lot about how we assess fundraisers and I think sometimes, obviously, did you bring the revenue in? Is a clear indicator of are you doing it? But I do think that honestly in fundraising there's a lot of wasted activity as a way to compensate for being effective. We think being busy is the same as being effective. And so I'm just curious. A lot of the folks I talk to are modern fundraisers and they're interested in sort of speaking truth to power about what's working and what's not working. I'm a fundraiser and I'm like, Marcia, I really just need tell the truth to my board or my ED about what's not working. But I'm afraid that somehow I'm going to get blowback or it's going to reflect on me like, oh, they I'm going to say this, but they're going to hear that I don't know how to do my job. So what would you recommend for the forward thinking fundraiser as they try to maybe try some new things or at least call out the fact that some of the fundraising that we've been practicing as a sector just doesn't work.

C (4:14)

Yeah, I think that the fundraiser listening in that case can really make a case and look at the revenue and look at the activities and make a logical case about that we could be doing better. This is our goal, for example, and this is what we've achieved. So let's try something different to reach that higher goal that we set for ourselves this year. If people are afraid to speak up for fear of retribution or shame or judgment, that indicates it's not a psychologically safe environment necessarily. And it's not that anyone maybe has done anything wrong to say that you're not safe to speak up. But some people may assume that they're not. This is why leadership is so critical. The leaders need to be the ones to set the tone that this is a psychologically safe environment. Feedback here is welcome. Healthy conflict over ideas is welcome. That's actually a sign of a healthy team, not personal attacks. But let's talk about ideas. And because I've interviewed lots of CEOs in the past and talked with them. And what comes, you know, what the best ones have told me is that the team is always greater than the individual. So when you can talk with your team, talk with one board member, the full board, at once. Let's come together and generate and brainstorm some ideas on how we can reach these higher goals in a place that feels safe, that everyone's just working to do their best and want what's best for each other and for the mission.

A (5:42)

Okay, can I give you a hypothetical?

C (5:44)

Sure.

A (5:45)

So hypothetical. I talk to fundraisers all the time. They're like, we are spending all this time and money doing a big gala and what we're seeing is actually that the revenue is declining over time. But gosh, like this is the gala that the board loves. This is the thing that actually gets them to invite their friends. This is what we've always done. I know that's a big one of my pet peeves. Like, oh, we're going to do it because this is how we've always done it. How would you recommend that a leader moves forward to disrupt something that can be considered to be a flagship event or something that it feels scary because it potentially is a lot of revenue, but if there's nothing that's been tried and true, it can feel like a risk. So how would you recommend that one goes about that?

C (6:37)

Yeah, well, one of my first mentors when I was an executive director, he told me there's nothing special about the special event. What special is what happens after the event. So it's all about the follow up. And probably, I know it's hard to do, but being able to create like a major gift program for the people who are truly engaged in your event in the past. If you can match the revenue of that event before canceling the event, let's say that's a way that you can rep. If you can replace that revenue in less time, less effort than the special event. The special event with the auction items and the competition and yeah, somebody can't yet imaginary bench that like, it is so much work and strain on the entire staff. Everybody kind of shuts off their normal jobs. And especially for the month or two before the event, it's all hands on. Imagine if you could replace that revenue with a strategic major gifts program. That really what is. I think I've heard you, Raya, say that Most of your 90% of your revenue comes from 10% of your donors. If you can really strategically replace that event revenue with those major donor gifts, that would be something that you could Propose to the board and they may say we'll do that first and then we'll cancel next year's event. So it's a long, it's a long term strategy, but yeah, I would say to go for it if you can.

A (8:03)

So I want to get back to you a little bit tactical because you talked about psychological safety and you, you pointed to some tactics like the leader having to be willing to be vulnerable and talk about their mistakes. I think it's hard to do and it's not the sort of thing where it's like, okay, now everyone feels psychologically safe. So can you walk us through a couple of practices or tactics that actually reinforce psychological safety that aren't the Google Doc that says we're psychologically safe?

C (8:30)

Yeah, well, that's the work I do with leaders every day. So I created a framework for culture, a culture system that is called cares. And CARES is an acronym for commitment, Appreciation, Respect, Engagement and safety. And imagine it like a pyramid, like Mathlow's hierarchy of needs where you're it, which is the science of human motivation. If you apply that to the organization, the base, the care, like the C is the peak at the top, that's commitment and the base is the S. In cares, it's safety. So it could mean psychological safety, security, financial security, stability. The S actually has all of those words that our brain needs to feel in order to perform at our best, in order to engage and, and in order to do our best work and become the best versions of ourselves. So in my work with cares, we measure the level of safety on your team. You can measure psychological safety with validated measures. I don't believe in the fluff. I want to see like how is the team doing? And once we do that, we have a baseline on how psychological safety is and then we create a roadmap with the staff, with the team that can improve that level of psychological safety as well as the engagement, respect, appreciation and commitment. So CARES is a full system that can be used by a CEO Executive director if they really believe that they need a healthy, inclusive and empowering team to serve, to succeed in their mission.

A (10:01)

So what kind of practices would one do as an example to reinforce safety?

C (10:08)

So safety is made up of four dimensions. One is open conversations, one is inclusion and diversity, one is a healthy tolerance for risk. And the fourth one is willingness to help. So when you come down to those four dimensions, what can a leader do to proactively make sure that people are willing to help? There's open, honest conversations that feel that where people can share feedback with each other in a way that's respectful. And it really comes down to the chemistry of that team and knowing the different dimensions and elements of safety in order to proactively build those and strengthen those with the team. So it's not a nebulous, ambiguous safety word. It's here's what we need to do. And so, you know, one of the best things is what you mentioned is that a leader can be vulnerable and admit their own mistakes first, and then the team feels like they can admit their mistakes or blind spots and ask for help to move beyond them.

A (11:15)

So let me ask you a question. And this is, am I being an ageist? Yes, probably a little bit. But I'm curious about whether or not you've seen any kind of trends with earlier stage professionals. You know, the Gen Zs now, oh my God, the Gen Alphas that are coming. And I say this as having been an ed. I don't want to bash younger folks, but I do think that I saw there was a discomfort with healthy disagreement and that anything that was seen as challenging was seen as unsafe for them as opposed to, like, look, we just disagree and that's okay. And so I'm just curious, is that something that you're seeing in your work?

C (12:00)

Yeah, I think, I mean, with any, like, we were all in our 20s once, right? In working, there's just a lack of maturity, a lack of experience. The brain isn't fully developed till 25. So, you know, I come at this like, knowing how I was in my 20s, I didn't know what the heck, and I was clueless and thought power is. They're all powerful because they're the bots and have those like, biases. As a young person, I think every young generation has their own. Gen Z is different than us in that they grew up in a completely different world than we did. I'm speaking as a Gen Xer in that world, in that digital virtual realm. And they're also, they're also pushing for openness, flexibility. That's where remote work really works for them. But we also know that when you're not in person, it might be a little bit harder to connect and collaborate. So finding that balance with hybrid work, you know, is a real challenge that executive leaders have had to face over the last five plus years. But I encourage like, you know, Gen Z having like, the empathy and understanding where they are at as a stage in life and. But some of them are really eager to learn and they're ambitious and they go into the nonprofit industry. Because they want to fulfill a purpose. And so that's where the nonprofit sector like really thrives. Right. We offer careers that are purpose driven versus the corporate world, which you may not be able to live your purpose out there based on what you truly care about changing in the world. So it's about finding that common denominator, meeting them where they are, and really hiring people in that generation who are coachable, who, like, in the hiring process you can talk about, do you want to grow and develop and are you coachable? That's such an important for any age group, an important quality to look for when you're building your team.

A (13:57)

Yeah, it's funny, like, I thinking about some of the junior members on my team when I was an editor and they were like, well, we really want some feedback. And so, you know, they came to my office and I was like, okay. And I gave them feedback and I just saw their faces drop and I was like, oh, you wanted compliments, not feedback.

C (14:13)

Right.

A (14:14)

That's completely different.

C (14:16)

Yeah. I think a lot of this is at, you know, we have the team we have today. Right. But as going forward, it's really about screening people and before you hire them or giving them a trial period, sharing what, you know, constructive feedback is. There's always room for growth. And as a leader saying, this is how I'm growing today. Like, I'm growing as much today as I was when I was 25. And though, and if you're wanting to hire people who are always in learning and continuous improvement, they're, you know, you're going to want to know where your drawbacks are. Your blind spots are to just be a better version of yourself. Hopefully that's what people are trying to be.

A (14:58)

I hear what you're saying. I think it all comes down to making sure that you're screening properly. And look, I think we've all been fit. Sometimes you hire someone who is the wrong fit. And I think the important thing is to make sure that you rectify that quickly because. And I think we've all been here. The wrong fit can destroy the fabric of a team so quickly. I mean, it can knock down years of goodwill. And I'm thinking in particular a couple of instances I had where I had someone who seemed like a great hire for a while and then it just became toxic and it just eroded the culture of the company. It felt like overnight. Really.

C (15:36)

Yeah. Especially on if it's a smaller team under people or something, which a lot of our nonprofits are. And yeah, one person is 10% of your team. And they can. Absolutely. I've seen it over and over. It turns into HR investigations and waste tens of thousands of dollars on legal fees. Hr retro. HR legal fees. And so yes, that's why screening is so important. And I actually have a podcast episode about how I used to work at Disney and I read a book from the COO of Disney about how they have a healthy culture. And he says that when people are working out, they help them. The mentality for leaders to help that person find their magic somewhere else.

A (16:20)

Yeah.

C (16:20)

Like it's okay that they don't thrive in the culture that we're building, but the CEO, executive director, fundraising leader does have the power to design the team that's going to help their mission succeed. And so if someone is derailing that culture, it's really important to help them find their magic somewhere else and bring in someone who will contribute to your success.

A (16:44)

I love that concept of addition by subtraction because I think we've all seen, you know, that one or two board staff members that are really kind of derailing the culture. But it's always like, oh, you know, but is it that bad? Right. Or there's endless performance improvement plans. Or I do this too. Sometimes you don't fire someone because they bring in a lot of revenue, but they're toxic to the culture.

C (17:09)

Yeah.

A (17:10)

And that can be a problem. Turnover.

C (17:12)

Yeah. And that if the culture is toxic, that revenue that they're working so hard to bring in is draining out the other side because there's regrettable turnover from other team members. There's so much wasted gossip on the back end. Like why aren't they doing something about this and just turn of energy that's not productive on the rest of the team. If this toxic person or people are, are taking down the energy that should be always productive for the organization, for the mission and the community that they care so much about.

A (17:46)

Okay, let's talk about something that I've seen a lot in nonprofits, which is the culture of ruinous empathy. Like, I, I think obviously people who join nonprofits tend to be very heart centered, very empathetic. I find that sometimes that sense of empathy is also tolerant of underperformance or tolerant of bad behavior because it's like, well, you know, they had a rough life or whatever it may be. So I'm curious, how do you both have a safe and empathetic work environment and at the same time make sure that you're upholding high standards of performance?

C (18:23)

Yeah. I think the highest standard that you can uphold is Clear is kind. And so I'll tell you a story about a client I had last year who. There was a person on his team that was so rude and disrespectful to the other team members. Now, this woman, who was very rude, disrespectful, and condescending to everyone else, was also a high performer, doing a really great job for the people that they were serving. But internally, she had a lot of wrath and was condescending. I mentioned. So there was a performance improvement plan. The leaders were coming to the CEO saying, this is not working. The CEO was like, well, I personally like her. I hired her when we first started, and she really is such a great, you know, such a great this with the community. And so the performance improvement plan, she improved for a few weeks and then went back to her old ways. And then other people on our team started calling in sick, taking mental health days, literally telling their manager, I'm taking mental health days because I cannot work with this person. So they put on another performance improvement plan, improved for a couple of weeks, went back to her always. And then something happened with safety and this. And by this, I mean physical safety. She put people at risk for physical safety issues, which was something that the CEO could not ignore anymore because someone could have been really injured, and they let her go. And it took. That whole process, took a year when it shouldn't have taken that long. And everyone was so relieved that the people there was no more absenteeism. They were relieved. They were a little annoyed that it took that long because of all the warning signs that went up. And now the team is thriving. In fact, this CEO is telling me, I don't even know what to do with my time anymore. I used to just be managing staff conflict all the time, and now I'm sitting on my hands. And so I'm like, great, now you can focus on board engagement, fundraising strategy, and vision and exactly why you started this organization. So this CEO is very excited about the future and does not have the distress of what happened and knows that clear is kind. And that's the thread being really clear instead of being. Empathy for everybody means you don't have empathy for the other people. And so that was a message that sunk in. And. And they have a totally different work environment now.

A (20:48)

That's great to hear. All right, I want to talk about perhaps the elephant in the room, board members. Now, I know a lot of leaders feel like they have more control over the staff, right? They hire the staff, they manage the staff, they can fire the staff. They can promote the staff. It's almost like a. I was talking with my friends about this. It's like having kids and not in a weird, creepy way, but you're kind of there, there's a locus of control there. Whereas the board are. You're very stubborn, aging parents, perhaps. Like they're just going to do what

C (21:21)

they're going to do.

A (21:22)

And I'm just curious, from your perspective as an ed, how can I make sure that the board members have a healthy culture and that we also have high standards of performance? Because as we know, board members are also very. They can not show up for meetings, not do what they're supposed to do. And it's fraught because technically speaking, they are the bosses of the ed. So how do you recommend. And a board chair, by the way? I'm going to make it clear that it is accountability also the board chair's responsibility to start to develop a healthy high performance culture.

C (21:58)

Yeah, I mean, it's really about managing up to your bosses because you have maybe 10 people, let's just say on the board that are your bosses and hopefully a close partnership with your chair that is really important in a strong executive committee. If you have those things, you're probably ahead of the game on a lot of boards. But truly boards are volunteers. So they can be really passionate about the mission and have good intentions, but then their paid job gets really busy or their family gets life gets busy, or they go on vacation. And being realistic about what volunteer hours they actually have to offer is important to understand. And also they will need some training and coaching as well around all of their governance duties from succession, planning, fiduciary responsibilities and fundraising. And fundraising is probably the hardest job for them, for many of them to do because they're just uncomfortable because they don't want to fail, they don't want to look down, they don't want to get rejected or feel inadequate like all humans. And so it's really about the executive director or CEO having one on one coffees with the board members. This is one of the most important things they can do, is to really nurture those relationships because perhaps they're major donors as well, or they can connect you to their, their network and you will find your major donors there as well. So it's very strategic and relationship oriented. Is that relationship with the board?

A (23:34)

Yeah. I find the difficulty with board management is as an ed, I had really close relationships with board members, but they didn't necessarily know each other because they saw each other once a quarter for a three Hour meeting, and then they go off and do their lives. And so one of the things I really think about is you have to be strategic and intentional about increasing the know like trust factor.

C (23:59)

Right.

A (23:59)

Because if I know you and I feel we're on the same team, if I like you, I'm much more likely to want to be doing the thing that you asked me to do.

C (24:08)

Yeah, yeah. And creating those connections between board members is what's going to build the culture of know like and trust. So it's it. Yeah, I was just going to say it's not easy, fast work. It is. The long game is building these trusting relationships and connecting them to your mission in a specific way that they want to help, that everyone has all the money, not everyone has all the talent, or everyone has all the time. And so you're also kind of juggling who has what to offer the organization.

A (24:38)

And as you're talking, I'm also thinking about this concept of trust and safety with our donors because we often don't necessarily think about that. But your donors are a key constituent of the people in your universe. And you and I spoke on your podcast about the importance of a trust based relationship where I'm going to be super transparent with you, the donor, about what my intention is, what our timeline is. I always say you ask permission to ask. And so I want anyone listening to really think through the lens of how can I also extend this culture of safety and trust to my donors as well?

C (25:16)

Yeah, I mean, everyone's all people and they all have a role to play to help your organization move its mission forward. And what I think about is the only thing we have control over is ourselves, nothing else. Not one staff member, not a little bit more staff than board, because pay versus volunteer. But you really just have influence as a leader, influence over the people in your surroundings, whether it's the board or the donors or the event attendees or. Or the staff. So it's really about how are you able to influence people to contribute what they want to contribute for the mission? And then what we have no control over are the external factors that are always coming our way, whether that be the pace of change, politics, global geopolitics, and all of the crazy things that happen in the world. So to center ourselves as a leader into. All I have control over is myself and my own health and wellbeing and how I show up in the world as someone that people can trust is maybe just bring it down, center it into grounding yourself in this work.

A (26:23)

Well, I mean, that's the Lifelong journey, is it not?

C (26:26)

Absolutely.

A (26:27)

Okay, last question for me. So in my work, I teach people a certain strategy around major gift fundraising. And this strategy can feel very different than what they've done in the past. So I'm wondering, can you help us think through what are some of the ways that you recommend that folks do change management in a way that sticks? Because I think sometimes what I see happen is everyone gets really excited and then there's a flurry of activity and then after a couple months it just goes back to the norm. Or what may also happen is that there's a lot of internal resistance. Why are we doing it this way? We've never done it like this before. How do we know it's going to work? So I'm curious, how would you recommend that folks start to think about change management in a way that isn't going

C (27:09)

to burn them out? Yeah, well, change management, I think comes with explaining why the change is happening and just knowing that resistance is part of human nature. So when people resist, don't freak out. People are going to resist change because it's going to require something more different of them and they're going to have to step out of their comfort zone. And then as they're changing, I wouldn't just add any major gift on top of that. You start to replace things. So deprioritize the special event in the fall and we're going to ramp up and replace our tasks towards major gift fundraising as we're going to have a smaller event in the fall. And so if you're, if you help them, know what to start, stop and continue those three columns that you can put on a page, say we're gonna, if we're gonna start a major gift, something's gonna happen or program, we're gonna have to take something off. What are we gonna stop doing in order to make this happen? And really like making it a safe space for people to ask why the change is happening so that you can get some buy in and maybe. And if the kids, you know, you said it's kind of not in a weird way, but they're your kids. What really works with kids is giving them choices. So we're going to build a major gift program in August or December for something give people. When do you think this is why we think this is going to work? Should we start it in the summer or the fall and have people, you know, and they're going to give them some input into a change process and you'll get people coming along you. But there will always be people that will put the brakes on when there's a change required. So you may just have to help them kind of process through it. They may be a little slower to get there, but they can get there.

A (28:53)

It's funny, as you're talking is I realized that as a leader, look, obviously I made lots of mistakes, but I. I think different leaders thrive at different points of the organization. And I was very clear. Actually, the reason I was really good at the startup phase is I'm a startup kind of a person. Right. I'm fast, I'm loose. We're going to try this, we're going to try that. My tolerance for risk is really high. And then as the organization got bigger and more mature, I realized that the way that I wasn't serving the organization because I was still operating fast and loose, like, let's do it now. I had a staff of 20 people that couldn't move that fast, that the business was more complex, that the communication had to be more formalized. And so I just say that too, that if leaders are listening to have that come to Jesus moment with yourself about what does the moment call for and is it what you want to do? Because I. Everyone can learn. I certainly could have learned to be a leader at the more sophisticated level, but I also didn't really want to. It just wasn't fun for me.

C (29:58)

Yeah. It's really important to know your strengths and know your passions and follow those. Yeah. And because you can always adjust and do something different for the long term. You were saying you could have done it, but if you're going against your own wiring of your own strengths, if you do that for a long period of time, you're going to experience that burnout, stress and overwhelm, and then that's going to be sustainable. Right. So we want leaders who are healthy, energetic, which is really when you're in your lane of your strengths. And so knowing that it may be, you know, moving to. Not every culture is going to work for every person. And that's okay if you want the best startup culture. Or do you want the steady growth or do you want this, you know, stable maturity phase and to know where you can thrive and where you can offer your best version of yourself is just part of that ongoing learning and journey of life that we're all on together.

A (30:51)

Yeah. I think that is really important and I think not beating yourself up over it. Right. Cause I do think we can get into there's something wrong with me and I could be better and I should be Getting a coach and I should be reading more books and I should be different and. Or maybe you should find a place where your magic can shine. Yeah, to go back to. Right?

C (31:11)

Exactly. You can find your magic somewhere else.

A (31:13)

I can find my magic somewhere else, which makes perfect sense. And I'm an entrepreneur now because I was like, yeah, I built this thing, running it. Fashion. So.

C (31:22)

Yes.

A (31:22)

All right, Marcia, well, this has been great. I'm so glad that you are out here doing the work. It is much needed work if folks are interested in learning about you and your work. We'll make sure to put your information in the show notes Marcia, as we sign off. Any last thoughts?

C (31:37)

No, I just appreciate the opportunity to speak with fundraisers. It's some of the hardest work that you can do out there, but so meaningful and so important to invite people into your mission by contributing financially or through time. And so just keep doing the work you're doing and lean into your strengths and take good care of yourselves. Your health and well being is not optional for sure.

A (31:59)

It's. I know it's such a cliche, but you got to put your oxygen mask on first because otherwise if you're drowning, everyone else will too.

C (32:06)

Yeah, that's right.

A (32:08)

All right, thanks so much. Good to see you, Marcia. And we will talk to you soon. Hey, fundraisers.

B (32:13)

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