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A
Hey, you, it's Rhea Wong. If you're listening to nonprofit Load on, I'm pretty sure that you'd love my weekly newsletter. Every Tuesday morning, you get updates on the newest podcast episodes. And then interspersed, we have fun special invitations for newsletter subscribers only and fundraising inspo because I know what it feels like to be in the trenches alone. On top of that, you get cute dog photos. Best of all, it is free. So what are you waiting for? Head over to riawong.com now to sign up.
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B
Foreign.
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A
Welcome to nonprofit Lowdown. I'm your host, Rhea Wong. Hey, podcast listeners, it's Rhea Wong once again with nonprofit Lowdown. Today I am excited to talk about Mental Health Awareness Month. It is May, and y', all, if you're anything like me, you need some mental health. It has been a moment out here, so today I'm excited because I have two guests today. Lauren Carson, founder and executive director of Black Girl Smile, and fan favorite April Walker, founder of philanthropy for the people and development lead for Black Girls Smile. Ladies, welcome to the show.
- [01:12]
C
Happy to be here. Thank you for having us.
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B
Yeah, thank you for having us, Raya.
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A
Well, I'm excited as always, to have you. So before we jump into Mental Health Awareness month and all of the questions that I think we have as a society, as a country, as a people about the importance of mental health right now, Lauren, can you give us a quick snapshot of what it is that y' all do at Black Girls Smile?
- [01:35]
B
Yeah. Thank you again for having us. So I'm the executive director and founder at Black Girls Smile. We're a mental health organization that focuses on the mental health of black women and girls. We typically work with girls 13 to 25, 20, and we have school based programming, community based programming. We have a new community space in Bedside Brooklyn, so please come check us out. And we also have virtual offerings like support groups, therapy, assistance.
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A
Thank you for doing all the work that you do. So let's talk about why you all reached out to me in advance of Mental Health Awareness Month. Because obviously it's important that we think about mental health not just in May, but every month of the year. And I'm curious from your perspective and what you're seeing out in the field. I just feel like there's so much happening in the environment, politically, economically, socially. Have you seen these sorts of pressures crop up in the work that you're doing with women and girls?
- [02:32]
B
Certainly. I mean, everything that we see in greater society, we see within the microcosms of our communities. And we are particularly Seeing that with black women and black girls and gender expansive youth, the things that we're hearing around Medicaid cut issues around immigration, reproductive justice, racial justice, inequality, all those things are significantly impacting our community directly, but also impacting their mental health and well being. If we are all in a state of panic and anxiety consistently, our nervous systems are kind of in that fight or flight mode 24, 7, 365. And you see that more so in black women and girls. And that's why we focus specifically on demographic group that we feel really proximate with.
- [03:23]
A
So let's talk about that because I feel like maybe coming out of the pandemic, I think there was a lot of focus on mental health and providing support, particularly for vulnerable populations, particularly for young people. And then of course, I think the pendulum swung the other way. So April, I'm curious if you could speak to, to this from a funding perspective. Have you seen the funding dry up? Because it almost felt like it was. I don't want to be flippant about it, but the cause du jour, and now everyone in the backlash against dei, the backlash against mental health, it feels like there are. I don't know if it's that we're not paying attention to it or we're not funding it, but what are you seeing from your perspective from a funding standpoint?
- [04:05]
C
Are you suggesting that perhaps like funding DEI or black women or black girls is trendy or that it is in service to foundations where they can get a headline from it but not actually sustain the organizations?
- [04:18]
A
I think that that's what I was implying. But the other thing is I was like, oh cool, like racism is solved, Mental health is not an issue. And by the way, like everything is hunky dory. Like we are out here not suffering every day with the headlines. So please, clearly I have a POV on this, but continue.
- [04:35]
C
I think it was just yesterday an article came out in Philanthropy Today detailing the ways that black led nonprofits did not see lasting funding boost after all, that they promised the billions that were supposedly promised for racial justice, economic justice, social justice in 2020. But like, of course they did it. There's no precedent where there's no staying power. There's no actual long term commitment in this country for the liberation of black people. And having started my career as a grant maker, I well know the ways in which foundations are ultimately postured to protect themselves. Right? They enjoy the ways in which they are regulated or not regulated. And they want that freedom and flexibility. So they proved that they could be very responsive, very proactive, very engaged funders in 2020. And now we're back to the same reporting structures. Actually, now it's worse because we can't use basic words like diversity or we can't use black to say the things that we are actually doing to emphasize who we're actually serving. So we're back to this sort of game of lying, of misrepresenting in service to protecting what they claim they want to fund or solve. It's not trendy to support black women and girls at the moment. And so as Lauren and I are working on grants and engaging funders, we're yelling into the abyss. Unfortunately, we do have dedicated partners. Are there enough? Are the investments enough? Is the multi year gift enough? Never, never, ever.
- [05:53]
A
Yeah, so let's go back because, Lauren, you know this nonprofit lowdown, we're all about the business of nonprofit. Given the fact that the funding has shrunk and it feels like people are fighting over crumbs. What have you done in terms of either thinking about competition or collaboration with other folks who are addressing mental health in the field?
- [06:15]
B
Yeah. So look, people hear me say this often. I think we are all a piece of the quilt. I think that there is room for all of us and there is a need for all of us. We are in this together. But as April so eloquently shared, we know that funding has consistently always been significantly less for people of color, leaders of color, organizations that focus on people of color and then adding in the mix, being a woman, being female, that the statistics even go lower than that. Right. And I know the article that April's mentioning, which ironically, we were actually in one of those grant programs and a part of those funding opportunities that were supposed to create sustainable, a sustainable culture, that the commitments were not long term, the commitments were not enough. And what we're doing right now as we navigate this uncertainty, but trying to find balance within it is, like you said, collaborations. Looking at other organizations nationally that have aligned demographics or programs or areas that we want to bolster our programs or provide additional services to our community, looking to partner with those organizations in more formal ways. And I think a lot of funders are looking for more collaboration. They've been saying that for a while. But I think even more there's some funding opportunities out there right now that are just for mergers and acquisitions of nonprofits. And then I think the other aspect of it is leaning into support to make sure that we're creating sustainable models within our programs, particularly if you're direct service Finding ways where we can call upon different levers. And for us, that shifted because we thought that was going to be like schools being able to pay for. For programming, but with mental health funding cuts, they're not able to do that. So as April said, making sure that we're finding aligned partners and having them lean in. We're having to do this really hard work right now. It is not too much to ask a funder. They can say no if they have some extra dollars to support an additional program or additional support or things that you need. That's crucial is to be in partnership means that you go back to your partners if you need additional ass.
- [08:26]
A
Yeah, I love the idea of partnership because I think historically we've always positioned ourselves as being the supplicant, you know, like, oh, whatever crumbs fall off the table, I'm just going to be grateful. And I do think the best funders out there realize that it is a partnership. On that note, we're going to take a little bit of a detour. But I just wanted to talk about what I've been noticing, and I'd be curious if this is reflected in your experience, is people are moving towards sort of these funding communities and these intermediaries as a way to access bigger funders because the Gates folks or the Walton folks aren't out here talking to these little nonprofits. But it's a little bit of a catch 22, right? Because if you're not in those networks, then how do you get access to the network? So just curious, is this a trend that you're also seeing?
- [09:12]
B
I would say it's a huge trend and a trend that we've seen for quite some time, particularly for organizations that are led by women or people of color and organizations that focus on marginalized communities. Divvying up the pie strategy has been prominent probably since before 2020, but particularly around 2020. A lot of our funding comes from cohort type models. The thing with that is making sure that it's not extractive and it's not performative in the ways that we just described, like just throwing someone's name on a web or, you know, wanting to get information to be able to report on these metrics that the organizations did. So again, back to what we. It really does need to be a partnership. But yes, I mean, we've been told before that some of the big funders will not have meetings with us, but we can just apply to like these open RFPs that are kind of those third parties. The other thing that I really want to note here that has been quite prevalent recently is when those cohorts or those intermediary funders, when things are happening in our space. So mental health being cut, education being cut, reproductive justice being cut, when those things are happening, they're also then cutting those funders. So it's kind of this trickle down that happens where we've had funders that have come back and said we can't fulfill our commitments because our funders no longer say that it's a priority for them. You know, being kind of tied to funders who they're impacted in the same ways as you has been quite interesting in navigating this space opposed to funders that and there's a lot of folks that are making a lot of money right now. So it's been an interesting mix. But yes, I mean, I think consistently we've seen these groups be in some ways a buffer between actually working with the organizations and learning more about what they do and what they can do with real sustainability.
- [11:05]
C
Maria, if I may make a bit of a crass but honest and heartfelt public service announcement, there's a lie. Bundles lie and they put nonprofits in positions to also not tell their whole truth and their whole story. And I don't blame like actual individual program officers. I think maybe sometimes they tell a story or position a nonprofit director or grant writer to do additional work knowing very well the funding opportunity won't go through. But even in their posturing overall, consistently asking an organization, how are you going to sustain? The answer is by asking you for money again.
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B
Right?
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C
We're not planning the sunset, so we're going to come back and ask you for money. But there's no space for this radical truth telling wherein black women girls need the support now, they need it tomorrow, they're going to need it next week. So can we honor that? Can we not force ourselves to innovate? What works is what works. We're trying to fill a gap that the school system isn't filling, communities can't fill. And we've proven that it works. It's going to be as evidence based as it currently is, that's not changing. And yet we have to rack our brains to find more creative language and different play different games, when in fact I think you might enjoy this activity too. I love looking at a 990 because that's where the truth is. Your public facing website says one thing, but they got $500,000. Oh, that's fascinating. And that's legal, but you're not honest with us. So it just really sets up a different type of relationship from the onset. And if you throw another party in there, then we're all just kind of dancing around each other.
- [12:36]
A
Yeah, you bring up so many really, really good points, which is nothing to do with mental health, but we're going to track back to that. But I had an offline conversation with someone at a major foundation, and even he was talking about the information asymmetry in funding. He's like, well, we have all these things and all these policies and these decisions that we're making behind closed doors, but we're not being honest with our grantees about, actually, I'm not going to be able to fund you or not this cycle or, hey, the board made a different decision. And I think that in a world where we could increase information transparency, we would save people a lot of time and energy. If you had a database where you could look and be like, here's the percentage likelihood of these various funders and their funding cycle, et cetera, then you wouldn't waste your time chasing after something that was like a 2% chance versus another opportunity that might be like an 80% chance.
- [13:34]
C
Correct. And I mean, you can't tell me we're all professionals here. You can't tell me that it is the best use of everyone's time to sit here and create different budgets for the same program over and over, like shifting the timeline by a month or by three months or by a quarter when there is a budget that's already been passed. So it's this wastefulness that is adding to the exhaustion on top of what we're seeing happen in the world. And I think Lauren is in a particularly interesting position because this is a mental health organization. So she intentionally and carefully and strategically monitors the mental health of the team, but also of the girls and the women being served and her own. And then you throw on these additional relationships where. And you're trying to be honest to yourself and to the mission and you have to pick up on these cues of what that might mean for a funding opportunity now or down the line.
- [14:22]
B
Yeah. And if I could piggyback there, I also want to highlight some of the strategies that I've seen be really successful and then want to link that back to mental health. To your point, Raya, in April, funders being honest about the likelihood, the renewal process amount, those are the things that help my mental health of not having to play a guessing game and not having to stress all year long that we have this budget and making sure that I can pay my staff and we can continue to do the work that our community is asking us to do and fulfill all the commitments that we're making, the promises that we're making to our community about the ways that we're going to serve them. There have been years where I am stressing literally until after Christmas when you guys are in philanthropy, you start to get those emails, okay, it's ending here, here's some extra money, like stressing until the very ending. I have to admit we and you both know this, we've been in a fortunate position the last three years to not have that where I'm mainly fundraising about half of our budget each year because we have a larger commitment for five years. And the way that that's opened up the advancedness around my mental health and my well being and not having to just be in the state of that fight or flight of what who do I have to fight for? The what meeting do I have to be at? What do I have to miss, what call do I have to be on? Do I have to work late? All of those things. Creating that sustainability within an organization can create such expansiveness, such dreaming and can make sure that the foundation of the organization is mentally healthy and well. If I'm stressing day in and day out, I'm not showing up the best for my staff, I'm not showing up the best for my community. And last thing I wanted to know, as you mentioned before, like what does tangibly this look like to be transparent? As April said, look, don't say on your website that you want to serve underserved communities and those that have been disinvested in. But then you're funding the same stuff that you've always funded. Those are not going to communities that have been in organizations have also been disinvested in being honest about renewals. I have funders that tell me a year 18 months out we will no longer be able to fund you. That works for me because I can plan, I can make sure we throw additional fundraiser, we, you know, up a campaign or something like that. But someone just saying, oh, I can't fund you anymore or oh, we had a great call but you know the common thing in April and I talk about this right now is everywhere. Everything responds with. We have received an unprecedented amount of applications. Okay, look, we know we're in it, we're participating, we are the unprecedented, we get it. But we're having to find answers. I'm going to need them to find answers as well so that we can again Be in all of this together and you don't have to stress you have great mental health. I have great mental health because we're able to create the sustainability in the space. And please don't get me in, in April started about opening up dafts because that could solve a lot of this, but making sure that we're in community with each other. And again, just tying this back to like this impacts mental health and well being, that stress, that anxiety, that guessing game of we're having to evaluate funding opportunities to figure out again going through their website, their Twitter page, whatever it is, to find out, like, do they actually fund black people in this day and age, do they fund mental health when they're saying health? Because a lot of this again is that coded language where funders, partners are saying that they fund specific things. But then mental health is not included in there. And people of color and female and women and gender expansive are not included within there as well.
- [18:10]
A
So you make so many good points. I want to circle back to mental health though, because I think this is why we're on the call today. But it occurs to me that black women and black girls are kind of the canary in the coal mine, such that we see things happening, crises happening, needs occurring, but it's symptomatic of a larger issue happening in the sector. And you know, I want to talk about the word resilience because I think resilience is a beautiful thing, but I also think resilience has been used as a scapegoat for actually building systems and actually building sustainability and actually building sustainable funding. So I'm curious, Lauren, as you think about how do you walk this paradox of wanting to build strong mental health and resilience in the women and girls that you serve and also recognizing that they shouldn't have to be that resilient. If we actually had a system that
- [19:03]
B
worked, it's tough because a lot of us are living it. A lot of our team, our board, our community, those that support us, they're really proximate, meaning they're women and girls of color as well. So the things that we see are things that we have participated in, had experienced. So it can be difficult. But I will say that's one of the most exciting things about young people today is a lot of them are fighting back against these notions, these tropes up front. Sometimes, you know, it again, the double edged sword because then they're setting boundaries and you're like, no, no, you still have to go to work. But I think that we, what I heard one of our board members say this is actually this past weekend at a BGS event. When we talk about resilience, we always talk about the ability to endure, but we don't talk about the other part of the definition, which is to recover and heal. And that's the part that's really missing from the conversation. When we talk about resilience, particularly as it pertains to black women and girls, is like the ability to withstand and the ability to endure and not getting to that place where we're healing and we're recovering. And that looks like embedding new practices. Mindset shifts internally but also societally. And for us, where we can focus now and today is that internal of yes, you can rest, yes, you can take a nap, yes, you're not responsible for like all of your siblings and cousins know, you don't always have to be the go to that. You don't have to feel the pressure, the being a black girl on your shoulders at all times that we can find these healthy levels of. Yes, pressure can be good, but also pressure can break us. And that's really where we try to work right now in our work is around helping black girls and gender expansive youth make sure that they have the tools, the strategies, the mindsets, the support, the community and systems to be able to stay mentally healthy and well, I will be very honest with you. We had advocacy and policy work as a part of our five year strategy and now we're here. A lot of those things have been pushed off a little bit to make sure that we're navigating policy and advocacy work in really intentional ways. And I think right now, and I think a lot of people could empathize with this is we would really be turning our wheels trying to advocate for things that like are not even going to be heard. Whereas let's continue doing the work that we do really well and start to position ourselves like a lot of people positioning ourselves to do well in the future.
- [21:45]
C
Can I add to that? Because I certainly see the value like naturally, having been black my whole life, I see the value of the rest and recovery. But I have not had the privilege or the opportunity until I've started my own consultancy to make that space. I've only been in environments that did not understand that resiliency for me came at a cost, that I actually had pain, that yeah, I'm strong, but I don't want to always be strong. Like for me the ongoing lesson, like the forever learning is to be soft is to give myself a break. Is to rest are strong, resilient black women. My mother doesn't have a definition for salt. My mother doesn't have a definition for recovering and healing. And so the generation that I'm in and learned that we're learning this in real time, trying to apply this in real time when the systems around us don't give a darn. And then most of the employers in this sector also aren't invested in our well being. Okay, you're doing great. You're the canary in the gold mine. We're not going to give you credit for that. We're not going to give you a promotion for that. We're not going to give you a title for that. But keep doing what you're doing for sure.
- [22:53]
A
What?
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C
No, that doesn't work for me.
- [22:57]
B
Ray, can I add one other thing there? Just very, very quick. I think so often people think of change and generational curse breaking as something that is heavy and it can be. Or something that is long. That is, it takes a long time to break. And yes, it does for you personally. But as we think about our girls behind us, like them seeing this as the first model and the only model. Right. Like they're still gonna feel things in their bones and in their DNA from generations, as April said, of being resilient and soft, not like soft as a pillow, like that. Point blank, period. Right. But to see the ways in which young people are seeing this as their first example is beautiful because they're starting to break these curses. Like, we're doing it and our parents did it in various ways to help set us up. And we're doing the same for the next generation.
- [23:59]
A
Yeah, thanks for saying that, Lauren. Because I think part of what I think the issue is is that we don't have other models of being. Right. We just haven't seen that there is a different way to be. It's sort of a failure of imagination. And so until we actually understand that there could be other ways, it's hard to live into that. Right. Because it's almost like being a goldfish. You're like, the whole world is just this bowl. And to realize that there's a whole ocean out there is like. Wait, what? What are you talking about? I thought my whole life was this little castle in this little bowl. It's the beginning of May. They're like, cool, cool, cool. Mental Health Awareness Month. What are some tangible things that you could recommend to leaders to help address the mental health either of themselves or their teams? Because I know folks out there burning out, like we're all holding things together with chewing gum and a prayer. That does not build sustainability. And often because our work is so relationship oriented, we know every single person who walks out the door. Not only is there a hard cost in salary and replacing them, but there is also the relational cost of all of the relationships and all the trust they built walks out the door. So the question is, what are tangible things that leaders can do to address their own mental health and that of their teams and that of the folks that they serve?
- [25:15]
B
So I think we hear about rest, but we don't really like, internalize how important it is. And for some of us, that may mean we need a weekend, a week of rest, a whole vacation of rest. But what I really encourage is finding those little pockets. You know, it may be between calls and yes, you could answer emails, but recognizing when you just need to rest. And that may mean just lounging on the couch, but giving yourself permission to rest. I think it's a constant reminder that needs to be had. The other is leaning into mentors and advisors, peers. I think peers have been those that have sustained me in this space. I don't think I would still be here if it wasn't for some of the amazing other nonprofit leaders that I know I can reach out to. And they're probably going through all of the same things that you're going through. And like, no one else understands. Other people understand, but it may feel like no one else understands leaning into peers, advisors, like, knowing when to ask for help. My team has been working with me nonstop to make sure that I'm getting better at delegating, asking for support, one that helps my mental health. If I'm just not quite carrying the load of everything and making time for myself and setting just small boundaries. Like, yes, I have a to do list that will be there at the end, right? Like, I will always have a to do list. But I've decided to like, break it up. Like, I have five things that I have to get done each week. Like my week will be successful if I just get these five things done. Yes, there's a million other things I need to get done, but these five things. So just biting off like small, small micro shifts, right? Like, small micro shifts are really important to making sure that you can sustain your well being in the midst of the chaotic nature of working in philanthropy and particularly in 2026.
- [27:15]
C
I would add that leading by example is huge. And also, you know, displaying that self care is not self love. My therapist has been harping on this for me for A while, like a massage is great, but actually understanding the season of your life that you're in is different. And understanding how you might need to shift a boundary or add one is huge. There have been seasons in my career when I have not worked on Fridays. Like, no accessibility to me, no availability whatsoever. You will not find me. And that doesn't apply to this season. So I have to figure out another way to give myself some breathing room because oftentimes again, to go back to institutions, systems, they're not going to let allow that for you. And so as leaders in different spaces, leading by example, speaking the language of liberation, speaking the language of wellness, offering those resources, you know, BGS has mental health practitioners, but there's also a such thing as vicarious trauma and burnout that you have to attend to. And so you actually, you know, this is not to say that all of these things belong in every conversation in every workplace, but you are dealing with humans here, right? Like you are dealing with people that are caregiving, that are navigating loss, that are navigating financial issues. And if you want people to even have a chance of showing up as their best or half of their best, or whoever they want to bring into the workplace, you have to create some of that space in that role. I think we might also want to talk about Mental Health Awareness Month. So you let me know, Rhea.
- [28:38]
A
Well, I think we're kind of out of time, but the one thing I just wanted to flag here as you two were talking is I think building an awareness of your own self talk as well has been huge for me because guess what? In as much as the world likes to make us suffer, we also like to make ourselves suffer. And so becoming aware of the voice in your head and the stories that they tell and the ways in which they like to make you suffer or convince you you're not enough, you're not doing enough, you're not holding enough, you're not, you know, what you want isn't available to you. All of the things has been a shift for me to just not necessarily changing, but just becoming aware of the constant chatter. Because even if I'm sitting and resting, but I'm internally berating myself, that's actually not that helpful either. It's not rest. Okay, last question. What is a call to action to commemorate Mental Health Awareness Month? If we could just do one thing, all of the listeners out here leaning in, what is the one thing that we can do this month?
- [29:40]
C
Yeah, I would say, at least from a fundraising perspective, the opportunity that organizations Miss when it comes to storytelling is being honest, right? So your mental health awareness month or your recognition day is your opportunity to speak to the truth of what the rest of that year looks like for you. It's not about, you know, we're going to fix this from May 1st to the end of the month. No, you tell the story of year round, right? You invite people in and hold space for them as well. And if you were imperfect or you were still learning or you need the community to offer you some perspective, then you ask for that too. I think some of this sort of relationship that we have with the funding community flips that. But in fact, people want space to show up and ask questions and say, we're trying to figure this out. We don't have all the answers. We have expertise in this one lane and we've got this. But we want to know what your thoughts are, what are you seeing? And so BGs, being a mental health organ, we have lots to speak to. And that's how we'll be spending the month of May is speaking to those other year round initiatives, both for the staff and the community. We're going to be giving away some flowers in Brooklyn. We're going to be doing a special shop in Atlanta. So there's lots of that. But it's also about the storytelling of how we're getting through.
- [30:51]
B
So, Lauren, mine would be breathing. I remember being at south by Southwest probably in like 2018, and I remember hearing a speaker. My goal for the year was to be intentional about my breathing. And I remember when she said that and I was like, you breathe by default. What do you mean? But then I'd said, time to really reflect on it and realize, like, how much I'm holding tension in my jaw, how much I'm huffing and puffing throughout the day, and how much when I'm incorporating box breathing or just any sort of like deep breathing exercise, how much that opens up oxygen to my brain. I can think better, I can respond better, I feel more like myself because my brain is operating at maximum capacity. I've let all of the oxygen and air and just grounding myself in and that's what I can offer is box breathing. Very simple. Two breaths in, hold, two breaths out, hold. And you just do that several times. Those simple things can make all the difference. And even incorporating that into meetings. If you are a nonprofit leader, if you're running a foundation, allowing that opportunity for your team to ground themselves before you get into the nitty gritty can be really, really helpful.
- [32:10]
A
I've started to do that with my meetings and it's made a huge difference. All right, ladies, thank you for being here. We could talk forever and ever, but unfortunately we gotta wrap it up. I'm gonna make sure to post all the information about Black Girl smell in the show notes for folks who want to learn more. In the meantime, thank you so much and Happy Mental Health Awareness Month.
- [32:31]
B
Healthy Mental Health Awareness Month for you. Happy Mental Health Awareness Month.
- [32:37]
A
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