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Hey you, it's Rhea Wong. If you're listening to Nonprofit Load On, I'm pretty sure that you'd love my weekly newsletter. Every Tuesday morning, you get updates on the newest podcast episodes. And then interspersed, we have fun special invitations for newsletter subscribers only and fundraising inspo, because I know what it feels like to be in the trenches alone. On top of that, you get cute dog photos. Best of all, it is free. So what are you waiting for? Head over to riawong.com now to sign up.
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Foreign.
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Welcome to Nonprofit Lowdown. I'm your host, Rhea Wong. Hey, podcast listeners, it's Rhea Wong with you once again with Nonprofit Lowdown. Today my guest is Janine Kahije. She is the vice president of development for America on Tech. And today we are talking about AI in the nonprofit sector. So, Janine, before we get into it, and I think this is a really interesting view that you have, which maybe is a little contrarian, tell us a little bit about yourself and your background in the nonprofit sector.
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Sure. First of all, thank you so much for having me. Really excited to be here. And so I am a development leader. So I've been working in fundraising shops, both large and small organizations, and I've been working for industrial or in these types of roles for over 20 years. And so what I would say is that from my experience during that time is that nonprofit leaders are already overextended. And so because we're already overextended operating with limited resources, whether that's staffing resources or funding resources, we've always had to operate from a place of doing more with less, and so ask us to do even more than that. I just feel for me, that's not the right message for nonprofit leaders. And instead thinking through how can we leverage AI to make sure that we're also increasing output, but also in a way that's sustainable.
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So let me go here, because when you and I spoke, I thought, this is really interesting. You told me that you recently did a training for a bunch of nonprofit leaders, and you said if your goal is to come here and do more and be more efficient, you're in the wrong session. Which I thought was really interesting because AI training sessions tend to be the exact opposite. How to do more with less, as you say. So what made you plant the flag there? And what was the response in the room?
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B
I would say it was through my own personal reflections is really where it started. And I was not intentionally looking to come up with this. And going back to really the recognition that we are doing more with less. We've always done more with less is also realizing that leveraging AI tools is building an expectations to be able to do even more and absorb more pressure instead of reducing it. And that also is increasing burnout. And so I think that part of the reflection is also recognizing what I'm hearing around from peers in the sector. It's a time where we're carrying so much, not just in the work, but just in our lives and in the world. And what does that look like? How does that show up? And how can we leverage AI to be able to build boundaries and to be able to reduce some of that burnout that I'm hearing from other peers. And so that's really where I was coming from, a genuine place of care. It's really easy to learn a skill. And how do we leverage AI in ways to optimize our work? I feel like all of us can really learn skills, but then how do we use it to really care for ourselves? Something that oftentimes as selfless leaders in this kind of work is something that we're prioritizing really less of.
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Let's go here because I think this is a little bit of an interesting point. One phenomenon that I've been noticing and I just did a podcast episode about this, is there's a lot of turnover that's happening and I would say more than quote unquote normal. I think now the average tenure of a development director is 14 months, which is pretty crazy. And so how might we think about using AI in order to, even if it's just to help people to not burn out as quickly.
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Oh, I listened to that podcast actually episode that you did and it's really part of what I'm really thinking about and how that's prompted for me because you did another podcast episode where it was related to your Ayahuasca journey. And it's really thinking about how we have the softest hearted people doing really existing in the most rural systems. And so I would say that in your sort of like general sort of like sharing and insight, it's really thinking about the systems for the organization to sustain talent and to make sure that we're building longevity in their tenure. And I would say similarly with that same mindset, if those systems do not exist, how are we building the systems for ourselves to self sustain with whatever the realities are of what we're holding? So if it is true that an individual is continuing to carry more, if it is true that there is a period of staff reductions, if it is true that fill in the blank, whatever else might be true in your particular environment, how are you levering AI to be able to help you, to be able to build out a system, to do the things that you're carrying, but in a way that's sustainable? And so I think that I'm not saying to those truths are not real and those systems do not, may not exist, but how are you creating the system for yourself that's also the same. And so for me, it's really thinking about how are you spending your time in a way that is not depleting your energy and how are you balancing the times and when you're doing work that is depleting your energy, and how are you spacing them out in a better way that allows you to still be full and engage with the work and engage with the mission and the things that really, truly matter to you? Because we, we do this work because we care about our missions, we care about other things that, that we care about. And so that's really how I'm thinking about the tools that using AI to be able to really help you put a mirror, if you will, in front of you, to be able to identify patterns in yourself and how are you are behaving in ways that may not be allowing you to be able to have that space of clarity. And so it's really thinking about how are you setting up systems to still do the things you have to do, but also care for yourself.
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A
That's an interesting point. So in my mind, what I hear you saying is framing the right question. So the right question may not be how do I get more stuff done? The question may be how do I leverage AI so that I can preserve my energy?
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That's right.
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And so how might I do that, Jenny? So just as an example, what are some things that you might recommend? Because one of the things I'm very emphatic about is let the robots robots so the humans can human. Right? And so I think part of what I'm really thinking about is how can we leverage AI so that we can automate and delegate some of the stuff that really sucks our energy away, be it inputting data or analyzing data or drafting emails like this can all now be AI. So if I'm listening to you and I'm like, Janine, I love what you're saying, what are some specific things that I can do to help me to preserve my energy while at the same time leveraging AI?
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One of the exercises that I did with one of the leaders that attended the session was a really Quick and very simple tool. And I think this is something that can be very actionable and also helps with that reflection. So, for instance, this leader is a CEO at her nonprofit organization. I suggest that she take a screenshot of her calendar. So very simple screenshot. It she uploaded into AI and ChatGPT in this particular case, and I asked it or she, the prompt was to help assess her week, to be able to manage her energy output. And after she did that, what it essentially said back to her was that she was too accessible. And it really was a moment of her own reflection where by being accessible to everyone at all times, it did compromise her ability to. To do the things that were important in her role as CEO. And so in that conversation, we were really talking about less about her time, but more how why is it so important to you and being able to make sure you're accessible. And so whatever may have been her truth, it was more of a values alignment about if I'm not showing up and being present for everyone, what does that mean about me and my values and me as a leader? And there's ways to be able to create a system to still be accessible, but to not cause burnout. Because now the things that you have to do in your role as CEO are you don't have the time for it because you're spending time being present for everyone. It could look like these are my office hours, my offer hours are on these days. Between these hours, you have an open door during your office hours. And so that's just a really simple example, right? What are we saying about ourselves in relation to our values, of why we're spending the time that we're spending in these different ways. And then similarly for me, like, one of the things that I asked when I uploaded my calendar is I want to make sure that I'm really thinking about the amount of time that I spent in the pursuit of money, raising money, student relationships, and the amount of time that I'm spending in internal meetings. And then I had to ask myself, what is the value add? Is that truly advanced in the work that I'm trying to do? Is there a way to be more efficient with the meetings that I'm having that are internal and that allow me to be more external facing? And so those are just some examples where it audits how you're spending your time? And then I would say, similar to the CEO I'm speaking with is engaging with my team is important to me. So when I have all of those environments, as someone who works remotely, I like Those times together with the team. And so I think that again, it starts to go back to, like, how do you, how are you creating alignment with your values, but also using AI to really diagnose the way you're spending your time and how can you still stay true to your values, but also being able to honor the reality of your time and being able to do that and structure it in a system that is more sustainable for you.
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Okay. I'm really glad that we're talking about this. So based on the conversation we had earlier this week, I did that myself. Oh, and actually I'd love for you to share your prompt if you happen to know it off the top of your head. We'll make sure the prompts are in the show notes. But what was so funny is it said, Rhea, you have 40% more work than you actually have time to do. I was like, what? Because in my mind, and again, this is such a nonprofit ed thing. I was like, I'll just, I'll just work more. I'll just work at nights and weekends and I'll just get it all done right. As opposed to really taking a step back to be like, okay, is this how I want to be spending my time effectively? So I think it's a really interesting and fun exercise to do. It could be a little depressing. I also think, to your point, having it audit your calendar for revenue generating activities versus internally facing activities, because a lot of folks out here, I know, they're in meetings all day and by the end of the day they're like, none of those meetings were actually to do with revenue. Yeah.
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And that's part of the audit. Why it's important because it like forces you to just ask questions and engage with whatever the realities are for you. And also, and I'll share the prompt that I shared and I'll share some of the outcomes of it and like the wrestle that I did with myself in trying to almost justify some of the things that came out.
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Yeah.
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Because I think for me it was fun, but it was also during the end of year. So I'll share the prompts. So one of the AI experts that I follow, her name is Ali Kay Miller and she does a lot of training for a corporate sector. And so in December, as folks are starting to reflect end of year, she sent five end of year questions to ask ChatGPT before midnight. One of the ones that I use was based on the conversations we've had roast my year. And so as someone who uses or who has been using ChatGPT in all aspects of my work. It had a lot of information to gather for me. And so I'll just say a couple of highlights of what it included. And I'm like, I'm laughing already before I even read it because it was so crazy. And it read, she read me so right. Or I don't know if it was a she actually. It was, it was. It read me pretty well. So most of my year, it said, you try to have planning time, you block time for reflection, you schedule stillness. You even wrote out of office messages with Audre Lorde quote, which I love that too. And then it said, immediately you use that time to rewrite a grant narrative, follow up with donors, fix the system. Rest was aspirational, execution was evitable, was inevitable. And then finally, it also said, if Yelp had a review of me, it would say Janine did a lot of work, managed a lot of work streams, improved every system she touched and still made room for meaning, would absolutely rely on her again, and would also recommend she rest. And so I spent a lot of time laughing when I read this because there was so much of it that was true. And I think that for me, as someone who truly cares about the work, and I also will say that this is where we have to really connect with ourselves. I'm a type A personality, so I actually get a lot of joy of just producing a lot. But I also know that for me, balanced in with stillness is really important because I'm also an introvert. And as an introvert, when I have that much front facing time, I do need quiet times to replenish and refuel. And so I think it's important to really understand and connect with who you are as an individual, as you're getting the assessment from the road, and why are you showing up in those ways? And what does that mean for you? Does this strike true to you or not? And so those are things that, you know, I think what I heard loud and clear was the rest. And for me, what that translated to is, is this sustainable? Is this really trying to create a plan of burnout? And that's definitely not something I want to do. And I also want to say that as just a full disclaimer, this is not related to the organization that employs me. This is something that I've seen across the sector in my 20 years. So I want to make sure that
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people still clear, have you been the sector for any amount of time? You see it over and over again. You're like, why is food burning out left, right, and Center. And actually, what I wanted to share, Janine, is I did a fun new prompt myself based on the conversation that we had. So I created a project in Claude because I've completely moved over to Claude at this point. I used to be a ChatGPT girl. Now ChatGPT is dead to me. Claude is my new boyfriend. And I asked it to create someone who is a guide and mentor to me, who fuels my mindset by reminding me who I am and where I'm going, tracks my wins and reflects them back to me so I never forget my progress and reconnects me to my purpose when the noise gets loud. So I'm happy to share my prompt or the idea here is I'm checking in with it every day because I think so often we get into the work and we forget ourselves. We forget how amazing we are. We forget the wins that we have. Right. Because we're usually fixing things and we're thinking, I'm sure you could name the 10 things that are going wrong right now, but you'd have a hard time listing the five things going right, I'm sure.
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Yeah.
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And I don't know. In a way, it's almost using AI as a therapist, but more as a mirror and reminder to yourself about how amazing you actually are and how much you're actually progressing and doing.
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I think what I heard is it's actually your affirmation. And it almost sounds like your personal girlfriend cheerleader that you got this, Riya, you're doing a great job. And that's what it felt like to me when you were describing that.
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No, I actually designed it so it wasn't a cheerleader. I specifically said your job is not to give me false cheerleading. I don't need cheerleading. I just need reminders about who I really am. Because to me, cheerleading is this. And I'm like, but that. I don't need the fakey fake. I need some real, grounded. Okay, yes, you're having a hard time here. Maybe you're having to resolve this problem here. But remember all of the things that you've done up to this point. And I think we all could use a reminder, because the other thing is, and as a fundraiser, I think you'll appreciate this. So much of your success is your mindset. And when we forget to fuel our minds, when we forget and we get into that scarcity mindset, that's when things feel crazy. That's when things feel a little bit haywire.
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Yeah.
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How is that landing with you?
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Yeah, I think I would definitely be aligned with that and I feel like similarly, I remember earlier in my career, the success was like the title that you had, right? Depending on what your title is, that defines who you are. When you ask someone tell me a little bit about you, they tell you their title and all of their professional accomplishments. And for me, I usually ask the question again and I'm like, can you answer that question a little bit different? What do you do and your time, your free time? Right? Because I want to. I'm usually curious to lean in more to who a person is outside of their employment. And for me, success for me was like, that was the mindset. And I have definitely been shifting to the mindset of success being, am I spending time in joy? Am I spending time in laughter? Am I spending time in softness and stillness? And for me, when I'm thinking about the prompts, I sounded to me like I was not spending time in those moments. And for me, laughter is so important. Me being able to spend time and stillness is so important. So for me, that feels like success to me, which is a mindset, right? How do you be more still with that? So I. I feel like that definitely lands for me for sure.
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A
So based on this roast that you did, what changes did you make?
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One of the changes that I made that I. This is a very practical change which I think has been really helpful to me is I send a 90 minute block of time Monday mornings from 9 to 10:30. And it's really just the time that I spent where I'm just doing a weekly scan. And so the weekly scan is I'm not writing an email, I'm not responding to anything. I'm just looking at my week. I'm seeing, okay, what are the meetings that I have? What does the prep work look like for each of those meetings? How much time is that prep work going to look like? Do I need to carve out time to do the prep work? Right. So I'm really just spending that 90 minutes just really just scanning out my week. And part of the reason that's really important to me is because one of the things that I found myself doing before I implemented that practice was I did not block out time for any prep work. So I was just going in from the thing to the thing, and then I was just drained because the thing was taking too much time. And this gives me a really great space to be able to just say, okay, let me zoom out. Let me think about all of the things that I'm going to need to do to show up in empower, to all of those powerfully, for all of those meetings, for all of those situations, whatever that may look like. And let me see what the prep looks like for that. And so I wasn't creating anything. And that has been super helpful for me. I find that during the moments where I'm not honoring those 90 minutes, I feel the difference.
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Yeah, I'm sure. So let's talk about AI generally, because I think even the conversation of AI can make people feel a little stressed. Right. You're in the tech space. I'm very tech curious. So I think jumping in with both feet feels fine and natural. What would you say to folks who are listening, who are really reluctant to engage with AI or feel even stressed out thinking about it because there are so many new tools and new strategies and new all the time, and even that can feel a little stressful.
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Yeah. I think that for me, one of the things even in the basic level, when I was just starting, is really just asking. Even AI, just pick a tool, right. Whether it's clog, whether it's adjective t, whatever it is, and even ask and even say that.
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Right.
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I think that's honest. Say, hey, listen, I'm looking to implement this. Can you provide me guidance on what are the tools to do these five things that I'm trying to accomplish? That's a starting place. And I think sometimes I feel that it can be overwhelming when you don't know what the first step is to take to do whatever the thing is that feels so far into you. And that can be true for a number of things. I want to run the marathon, but I've never run a 5k, so of course the marathon is going to feel overwhelming. So I think that if you, for me, just acknowledge the fact that this is a tool that can definitely be helpful and acknowledge the fact that you may be hesitant. So just say that. You can say that. Hey, what would you say for someone who's very novice, who's very new beginning, what should I be thinking about? How might I start engaging with this? And I think that see what it delivers and just say whatever it is that you're thinking about doing or even say, hey, what should I be thinking about, considering this is my job.
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Yeah. And I think the other thing that I would add is you're never going to know everything about AI and things are always going to change. So don't let that stop you from jumping in and kind of getting your feet wet a little bit.
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For sure. Yeah, that's true. And actually, as you're saying that it Reminds me of what you say often when you started your role as an Ed. You're like, I knew I was doing this. I googled how do I fundraise? What does it need to do? And I think it's the same thing.
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Right?
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I think it's. For me, it's the same thing. It's okay to acknowledge. I don't know, most of us still don't know. We're all still learning. So you're not alone in that camp. Right. The majority of us are learning, if not all of us are still learning. And it's constantly evolving. And so I think that being able to acknowledge that you're not late to the party and just making sure that even showing up with just, even just saying, I want to start and I want to join the party, that's a starting point.
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Yeah. I'll add a couple of resources for folks who are thinking about how to create policies for their organization. Because I do think having some guardrails is really important. And I think anyone listening to this who has an anti AI stance, I would just say, look, at the end of the day, sure, you could decide that you would want to do things on paper and pencil instead, but there's also the Internet. I just feel like the genie is out of the bottle and the organizations that will advance are probably the ones that have embraced AI or at least have a fluency with AI. And I think sometimes there's this tendency to throw the baby out with a bathwater. Oh, this potentially bad thing could happen. Therefore I'm not going to use it. Yeah, people get into car crashes, it doesn't mean they stop driving. People might have their ATM card stolen, it doesn't mean they stop using banks. So it's like you have to think about the risk versus the upside. Okay, last question for me. If people are hearing this and they really appreciate your human centered approach to AI and thinking about how to use it to preserve their humanity, what is one thing that you would recommend that they stop doing and one thing you recommend that they start trying?
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So I would say more leveraging it to be able to support with building out clarity and part of that clarity to be able to design systems to ensure that we're balanced in both the productivity that may be necessary and also with self preservation.
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And what's one thing that you recommend that folks try?
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I would say even the prompt of the calendar. Just take a screenshot of your calendar and that's really a great starting point of reflection and say, hey, I'm trying to balance out my energy. This is what my week looks like. This is how these are the things that are like important in my work. How might you, what insights might you be able to share with me?
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Right.
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And I think that I just, it's just spend time connecting with that and I think that whatever may be true, I think in that outcome of that prompt will allow you to be able to reflect. Is this something that maybe perhaps my values are colliding with the things that I'm doing, How I'm spending my time? Is there a way to still connect with my values but also rethink and reimagine how my time is being spent in a way that's not compromising my values? I would say that would probably be something that I would say for funsies. You know what?
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So I'm going to challenge folks. So when this episode posts on Monday, folks, if you want to be bold, you don't have to share personal information on your calendar. I'm not trying to get into that, but we'd love to get your feedback from ChatGPT about how you're spending your time. I'll go first. I'll make sure to post mine and give the feedback. All right. Well, Jenny, thank you so much for being on the show. I'll make sure that your information is in the show notes if folks want to get in touch. In closing, anything that we haven't covered, any last words as we depart?
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The only last words, just really connecting with your joy. And ultimately that's what this is all about. We all do such hard work and just remembering to just love up on yourselves, care for yourself and just really connect with whatever brings you joy. And that's ultimately the goal of this conversation, is to make sure that we're
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present to that wonderful. That is a beautiful reminder. So everyone connect with your joy. Love yourself up a little bit because you are the most important person in your world. Thanks so much, Janine. And we'll see you all next week on Blowdown Fan. Hey fundraisers. Looking to nail those big fundraising asks? Check out my big ask gift program@riawong.com bag. Say goodbye to uncertainty and hello to confidence with my program. Get expert strategies and personalized support to secure those game changing donations. Don't let fear hold you back. Join me and take your fundraising to new heights. We're enrolling now@riawong.com bag. That's riawong.com bag. So if you like big asks and you cannot lie, I'll see you in the program.