#393- Burnout, Budget Cuts, and the Future of Fundraising with Glennda Testone

Summary

Podcast Summary: Nonprofit Lowdown #393

Episode Title: Burnout, Budget Cuts, and the Future of Fundraising with Glennda Testone
Host: Rhea Wong
Guest: Glennda Testone, Nonprofit Leadership Lab
Date: June 15, 2026

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Overview

In this timely episode, Rhea Wong and guest Glennda Testone dive deep into the unprecedented challenges facing the nonprofit sector in 2026. With rising anxiety, burnout, budget cuts, and shifting fundraising conditions, the conversation balances grim reality checks with practical, hopeful strategies for building resilient organizations. Drawing on the latest data, sector trends, and their extensive leadership experience, Rhea and Glennda offer nonprofit professionals both an honest look at systemic issues and actionable recommendations focused on sustainability, donor relationships, and adapting to the new fundraising landscape.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Current State of the Nonprofit Sector (00:55–06:24)

• Anxiety and Uncertainty:
  Both hosts note an increased sense of burnout and unease as nonprofits face resource scarcity, staff departures, and targeted attacks on their communities.
  • “The world is scary right now... everywhere you look, things are hard.” — Glennda (02:21)
• Stark Financial Realities:
  • Many organizations dependent on government and foundation funding have had a “rude awakening” with sudden funding cuts.
  • The similarity to Covid-era stress is noted, but this time, there’s less relief funding.

Center for Effective Philanthropy Report Findings (04:43–06:54)

• Alarming Sector Statistics:
  • 46% of CEOs are experiencing burnout (up 6% from last year).
  • 40% have experienced funding cuts.
  • 57% report difficulty getting foundation grants.
  • 73% see increasing demand for services.
  • “More demand for services, lower revenue—that’s the reality.” — Glennda (05:40)
• Contrast with 2020:
  Unlike 2020, when both government and private giving increased, today’s crisis comes with diminished resources.

The Shift to Individual Giving (06:56–14:34)

• The Case for Individual Donors:
  Both hosts argue that a strong individual giving program is essential for nonprofit sustainability.
  • “Building relationships with people who believe in your mission is the lifeblood of nonprofits in the United States.” — Glennda (08:32)
• Key Data:
  • 56% of nonprofits with a surplus in 2025 credited individual donors.
  • A shrinking group of wealthy donors gives most of the individual donations; mid and low-level donors are dropping off due to economic pressures.
• Common Barriers:
  • Many nonprofits still lack any individual giving strategy.
  • Leaders feel overwhelmed or as though it’s “too late” to start.
  • “You don’t have to start big—you can start with a dozen people who each give $50.” — Glennda (12:47)
  • “It does take time... relationships take time, especially with major givers.” — Rhea (15:00)

Changing Donor Behavior & Relationship Building (17:49–22:21)

• Generational Shifts:
  Today’s (especially younger) donors expect digital, subscription-like experiences, not traditional coffee dates or site visits.
  • “Current donor behavior has changed—Gen Z wants a completely different experience.” — Rhea (17:49)
• Practical Advice for Small Nonprofits:
  • Communicate openly—even without all the answers.
  • Fundraising is a team effort; develop a “culture of philanthropy” involving staff and board, not just development directors.
  • Make donating easy and accessible.

Sustainability, AI, and the Death of the Gala (22:02–29:57)

• The AI Distraction vs Human Connection:
  • Authentic connection and community are more deeply valued than ever.
  • “AI is never going to human relationships... We’re craving authenticity and community.” — Rhea (22:21)
• Gala Effectiveness Questioned:
  • Rhea argues the traditional gala event is not cost-effective for most small to mid-sized nonprofits.
  • “The gala model is dead... it’s just not an effective, efficient way to raise money.” — Rhea (22:21)
  • Glennda advises against overreliance on galas, noting that major event gifts come from relationships built over months or years.
  • “Putting all your eggs in the gala basket is not the best way.” — Glennda (23:48)
• Do What Doesn’t Scale:
  • Both stress the importance of one-on-one relationships and personal outreach, especially at higher giving tiers.
  • “Figure out who would support what you’re doing—go deeper with those people.” — Glennda (30:35)

Recommendations & Forward-Looking Advice (29:57–37:03)

• Double Down on Relationships & Capacity:
  • Focus on long-term relationship building, not short-term fixes.
  • Consider investing in fundraising capacity now, even during lean times, to prepare for future surges.
  • “This is the time to hire the good fundraisers—when the economy bounces back, you’re ready.” — Rhea (27:03)
• Get Lean and Clarify Mission:
  • Reevaluate organizational priorities and get back to ‘nuts and bolts'.
  • Don’t overcorrect with premature staff cuts.
• Emotional Storytelling Over Transactions:
  • Overemphasis on metrics (e.g., “$100 = 10 meals”) can turn donors into calculators instead of partners. Donors respond more to meaning, impact, and personal stories.
  • “Giving feels best when it’s meaningful; it’s not a math problem to solve.” — Glennda (35:18)
• Major Gifts as Legacy and Meaning:
  • Major donors are often motivated by legacy and a search for meaning.
  • “You’re giving people the gift of meaning and purpose.” — Rhea (32:01)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Burnout and Challenge:
  “Nonprofit work is never easy… but it seems real hard right now.” — Glennda (02:21)

• On Donor Diversification:
  “When you have dozens, hundreds, or thousands of individual donors, one person having a bad year isn’t a big deal.”— Glennda (08:03)

• On the Value of Small Donors:
  “Most of the largest bequests came from people who gave $35, $50 a year—not the big donors.” — Glennda (15:46)

• On AI and Authenticity:
  “AI is never going to human relationships… We’re craving authenticity and community.” — Rhea (22:21)

• On Events and Galas:
  “You cannot put all your eggs in the gala basket... The way to tap into generosity is not just a party with a thousand people.” — Glennda (23:48)

• On Major Gifts:
  “That $150,000 gift at a gala? That relationship was cultivated for months, if not years. That’s how you get to that moment.” — Glennda (27:57)

• On Emotional Giving:
  “Giving is essentially an emotional decision... it feels good to give.” — Rhea (34:30)
  “On your deathbed, no one says, 'I’m proud I served 2,499 meals.' They say, 'I made sure people aren’t hungry.'” — Glennda (35:18)

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Important Timestamps

• 00:55 – Introduction to sector challenges post-2020
• 04:43 – Key findings from the Center for Effective Philanthropy’s 2026 report
• 06:56 – Discussion of individual donors’ central role in sustainable fundraising
• 12:05 – Data on the growth of donor-advised funds (DAFs) and Giving USA stats
• 17:49 – Changing donor behavior & generational shifts
• 22:21 – The limits of AI, the search for human connection, and event critique
• 27:03 – Strategic advice for building capacity during downturns
• 32:01 – Major gifts, meaning, and donor legacy
• 34:30 – Emotional drivers vs. transactional fundraising
• 35:18 – The limits of metrics in defining impact

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Actionable Takeaways

• Prioritize individual giving efforts—start small if needed, but start now.
• Distribute fundraising responsibility across the organization; don’t isolate it to the development department.
• Connect and communicate authentically and transparently with donors, especially in times of uncertainty.
• Invest in relationship building and fundraising capacity during lean times to prepare for future stability.
• Move beyond transactional asks; tap into donors’ search for meaning, legacy, and real-world impact.
• Don’t overcorrect with staff cuts—lean into your mission and core strengths.
• Rethink traditional fundraising events; focus instead on what brings the highest return and the deepest relationships.

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Closing Thought

The episode closes with gratitude between the hosts and a reminder to build community and nurture relationships in both professional and personal networks, echoing the episode’s core theme:
“Giving is meaningful for donors and essential for nonprofits. Let’s get back to nuts and bolts and put people at the heart of our work.”

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(End of summary)

Transcript

[A]

Hey, you. It's Rhea Wong. If you're listening to Nonprofit Load on, I'm pretty sure that you'd love my weekly newsletter. Every Tuesday morning, you get updates on the newest podcast episodes. And then interspersed, we have fun special invitations for newsletter subscribers only and fundraising inspo because I know what it feels like to be in the trenches alone. On top of that, you get cute dog photos. Best of all, it is free. So what are you waiting for? Head over to riawong.com now to sign up. Welcome to Nonprofit Lowdown. I'm your host, Rhea Wong. Hey, podcast listeners, it's Ria Wong with you. So this must be Nonprofit Lowdown. Today I'm with my friend and fan favorite Glenda Testone of Nonprofit Leadership Lab. And today we're getting on the horn because she and I were chatting because we're friends irl and we were like, what the f is happening in our sector, y'? All? It is June 2026. I know that I have felt such uncertainty in the sector since 2020. Covid times. So, Glenda, welcome to the show.

[B]

Thank you so much for that ominous welcome. Riaf that I appreciate being here. I feel the same way. Like, what the heck is going on and what are we going to do about it? Yeah, it's not an easy time right now for nonprofit leaders. That's what I say all the time. I see you. I know it's. It's not easy right now. It's really hard.

[A]

Yeah, it's. It. Look, it's never easy. There's always going to be some kind of cray cray happening. But yes, do think I'm feeling this shifting in the sector where it's this anxiety and uncertainty coupled with burnout. And so everyone is leaving the sector. People don't know how they're going to meet budget. And then on top of that, they're losing staff. So the capacity that they had before, they no longer have. And so I'm taking. Just let me take a step back here. What are you seeing in your neck of the woods? Because I know you talk to hundreds of nonprofits every day, as do I. So I'm curious. What does the world look like?

[B]

Yeah, this is not going to be shocking to any listener. The world is scary right now. I think this is part of the issue. Like, nonprofit work is never easy. It's always incredibly enriching and rewarding. That's why we do it. But it seems real hard right now. And I think the similarity to Covid makes a ton of sense because when Covid was happening. It was like every. Everywhere you looked, things were hard. And that's what it feels like right now in the nonprofit sector. It's like you have people who are being targeted themselves, who are working at nonprofits, who are trying to help communities who are being targeted, and they are being run by people who are targeted. And so it's just like this. Everywhere you look, it's really challenging. So you can't listen to the news to feel better. You can't talk to a friend to feel better. You can't look out your window in your neighborhood to feel better. Because it's just tough out there right now. The economy's not great. I am not a pessimistic person, but there's just a lot of things that are really accessible that are not. That are challenging for nonprofit leaders right now. And that's what I'm seeing in the lab. We have thousands of members who, who lead small to nonprofits in the lab. And then I do executive coaching, and I'm seeing exactly the same thing there. And a lot of people are finding themselves facing pretty stark financial realities. Some of them anticipated these realities. Some of them are surprised and really knocked down by these financial realities. I'm thinking about the folks who are heavily. Were heavily dependent on government funding. They've had some real wake up calls.

[A]

Yeah, I would. Year or so, we got started on this because you and I were talking about the report from the center for Effective Philanthropy, and there were some really interesting findings, some of which will not be surprising to folks who are out here doing the work. The thing that I want to underscore here is. Yeah, for a lot of nonprofits that we're depending on federal funds, and even for the ones that were relying heavily on foundations, I think 2026 has been a bit of a rude awakening. So walk me through a little bit of the findings and what are the implications for nonprofits? Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So this survey is something the center for Effective Philanthropy does every year. And so this is as current as a gift. This is 2026. And they do a survey where they reach out to nonprofit leaders to take the pulse of the sector. So this is the pulse of the nonprofit sector right now. And what they found was pretty alarming. 46% of CEOs are experiencing burnout, and that is a 6% increase from last year. That was at 30% last year. More than 40% have. 40% of nonprofits have experienced actual funding cuts. So no wonder leaders are burned out. They're dealing with fewer resources coming their way. And then they're saying, and this is up from last year, 57% of them are saying that they're finding it hard to get foundation grants, which I think is a function of government grants have dried up. Foundation grants are becoming more competitive. And on top of all of that, Ria, it doesn't end there. 73% report an increased demand for services. And that's where this really challenging world really comes in. Like more higher demand for services, more lower revenue. And revenue that is having to shift in ways that some nonprofits did not anticipate. And then you have CEOs who are feeling really burnt out because they're feeling really stretched. Yeah, it's. It crystallized for me. Like, okay, this is putting numbers to something that we see all the time in the lab. And I'm still hopeful, but this report really confirmed like nonprofit leaders are facing a lot of challenge. Yeah.

[A]

And I would say that this is in Stark Contrast to 2020, which I think is like the nearest analog that we have because at that time the government was really releasing a lot of money. Foundations were stepping up and giving more, individuals were stepping up and giving more. And so it's almost like we're in worse circumstances, but with half of the resources that we had from the previous crisis. So that's a bummer.

[B]

Yeah, I'm getting down.

[A]

Are we going to turn this around at some point? Okay, no. But I don't know if it's a silver lining, but I do think that this is a perfect opportunity for us to talk about individual givers and individual donations. And I have been harping on this for the last decade. This is the hill I'm going to die on. But walk us through what this report also showed because I think there's no better time for organizations to really focus individuals and specifically having a major gift strategy. So walk us through what you're seeing.

[B]

So I have long believed. Also, I'm not planning to die on this hill, but if you need company, I would consider it. Maria, I do think that the foundation of any strong revenue mix for a nonprofit, 90 plus percent of the time, it's got to include individual donors, it's got to include major donors. That is just foundational. That is a way. It's a numbers game. Like the math is mathing. If you have a big foundation grant from one foundation, even if it's a multi year grant, that's still one chance. So that chance could come through or it could not. When you have donors, individual donors at all levels, you're talking about dozens, if not hundreds, if not thousands of people. So if you have one person who has a bad year, it's not a big deal. You have other, lots of other people out there. So I just really cannot underscore enough how important it is that as part of the plan, and I will say I am still seeing nonprofits and still working with some clients who are 80, 90% government funded or foundation funded or corporate sponsor funded and not have no's zero individual giving program. And I found my, I find myself especially now the most concerned for those because just seems incredibly risky. And I'm in some ways, maybe I call it foundational, I wouldn't call it old school, but maybe I would call it old school because it's worked for a long time and it still works. But like those donor relationships, building relationships with people who believe in what you're doing and communicating with them and getting them to give you money to keep doing that is the lifeblood of charity and nonprofits in the United States. And I just, we have that. Some countries don't, they don't have that kind of charitable giving. It's something that we have that I think we should be proud of. And it's really a missed opportunity if a nonprofit is not thinking about how do I get my message out to individual people who could give me money to keep meeting my mission.

[A]

And I will say that hopefully we

[B]

don't have to die, but maybe, yeah.

[A]

What I will say is when you look at this report, I'm going to pull some stats here. 56% of the non profits who reported having a surplus in 2025 cite individual donors as the reason. And then ironically, the majority of organizations that cited having been having missed the revenue mark cite individual donors or basically lack thereof or a falling off of individual donors for that reason. And so what we're seeing in the field is that increasingly a smaller number of wealthy donors are making up for the vast majority of your individual giving. And we see mid tier and low dollar donors falling off. Why? Because these are the people who are most directly affected by things like high gas prices and inflation and the cost of groceries. Right?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

At the end of the day, if I'm really resource constrained, like as much as I love you, I'm not going to not feed my family because I'm giving you a donation. But the reality is we have a good number of people and increasingly more who for all intents and purposes are pretty much inflation proof. Their budget is pretty discretionary.

[B]

Yes, sure.

[A]

Like the price of eggs might be A bummer. But it's not going to change whether or not they feed their family.

[B]

Yes, yes, it's that, that is absolutely true. And I think one of the mistakes, like one of the, one of the lies, and I understand, I have been there. I was a nonprofit leader myself for 24 years. One of the lies I see nonprofit leaders tell themselves is no one's going to give. Look how hard it is out there. You just talked about gas prices, you just talked about the economy. Donors are not a monolith. They are individual, Literally individuals and families who are giving their money. Some of them may be impacted by this and others of them will not. That's one of the benefits of really focusing on individual giving and growing that program is that when something happens, some of those people will be impacted. Probably not all. You will still have people who can give. And it does tend to be that higher tier folks who are more inflation proof and can continue to give and might even be able to give more.

[A]

Yeah. And I will say we just have to look at the stats, look at the number of DAFs that are being opened every single day. It is unprecedented. When we look at the stats from giving USA, we see that the vast majority, 73% of all giving is individuals, either bequests or individuals who haven't died yet. And so I want to go a couple different ways here. I think nonprofit leaders, they've heard it and again and again, yes, individuals, yes. Like I understand wealthy individuals, why don't they do it? What's the disconnect? I think intellectually they might understand that this is a long term strategy for sustainability and yet it's hard for them to actually do it. What? Why?

[B]

I think it can feel overwhelming. I've heard people say to client, well, we haven't started yet. It's too late. We missed our opportunity. We should have done this a year ago. That's true. But you can start now. And I think a lot of nonprofit leaders also tend to get distracted by, solely by big donors and big gifts. And that is the goal at some point, of course. But you can start anywhere. You should start somewhere. You don't have to start big. You don't have to start because five donors that could give five figure gifts, you can start if you know a dozen people who could give you 50 bucks. That is actually how you can start a donor program. Individual giving membership, like getting those donors in the door. So I really think a lot of it is CEOs legitimately feeling like who's gonna. This is such an overwhelming Uphill battle. And if I haven't already started, maybe it's too late. I don't believe that. I do believe it's something there is a benefit if you get started right now and there are ways you can do it that make it easier. I will also cite, since we're talking about this study, 40% of nonprofits said that actively fundraising was, was the most important action to keep them solvent and successful. So that is what we have to do. There are things we can do about it. Making sure we are building strong relationships with individual givers to nonprofits and nurturing and cultivating those relationships and moving people up the donor pipeline is really important and one of the best things we can do to ensure that that folks can meet their mission.

[A]

Yeah, I would double click on everything that you just said and I also think I would add a couple things. One, I think that you have to prioritize it. And by prioritize I mean you actually have to put capacity and resources behind it. Right. So it can't be the thing that you ask your development director who already has the job of two people to say, oh, by the way, could you also just started individual giving program?

[B]

Right.

[A]

And then I think the other thing that people that keeps them from really going into this is it does take time. Because you know what, trust takes time. Relationships take time, especially the ones that you want to build with these bigger givers. So it may not be an overnight or one time thing. I think people get, it's almost like they get addicted to the sugar rush of the big federal grant or the big big six figure foundation gift and they forget that actually you have to put in the work, you have to do things don't. That don't scale. So maybe it is the $50 giver, but that $50 giver compounded over time is real money. And that $50 giver times 500 people is real money. And so I feel like we kind of have to get off the sugar

[B]

high a little bit. I really like that analogy. It makes me think of the dopamine that kids get when they play video games or go on YouTube. This is something we were talk. It feels so good, but it just, it's not actually satisfying. It's not actually nurturing you. And I will say two things about that. Number one, when I was the CEO at the LGBT center for 14 years, we got a lot of. Thankfully we had four founders of the organization who really believed in planned giving and had a planned giving program. And so we would get the quests all the time for various amounts of money, most frequently from people who gave $35 a year, $50 a year, maybe $150 a year. This is not huge donors, and those were the biggest bequests that we got. So I really would caution against people discounting those small donations. They can lead to really big donations. The other thing I would say is that, and I we never, just to say it explicitly, we never got a bequest from a government. That's not something. That's not the same kind of relationship. Right? That's not the kind of relationship where at the end, it's the kind of relationship. Now, let's be super explicit. Where nonprofits are finding themselves. If you have the wrong word in your name, in your work, your application, your could be rejected, your grant could be pulled, and it happens instantly. So that I can't. It's hard to think of anything more risky than that right now. And I really hope the lesson that leaders take away from this is, yeah, I guess a government can do that and an individual can do that. But that's the point of having a community of givers that believe in your organization and what you do. The chances of everybody doing that at the same time are much lower, especially if you communicate with them and build a good, strong relationship.

[A]

It's interesting, as I was thinking about this conversation too, Glenda is. I think we as a sector also have not caught onto the fact that donor behavior has changed and has changed very rapidly. Right. Buying behavior has changed. Right. So think about the way that we buy things. It's all subscriptions now, and it's online. And like, I don't remember the last time I walked into a brick and mortar to buy something. And I think that as a sector, it's very overwhelming to be like, wait, so all the things that I was taught about how to steward donors doesn't actually necessarily work anymore for today's donor because. And I'm thinking specifically of younger donors, right? Gen Z. People who are like, they don't want to be. They don't want to go to coffee, they don't want to go on a site visit necessarily. They're looking for a completely different experience. And I feel like that can be very overwhelming because, like you and I, we're running businesses and we think about things like marketing all of the time. Our executive director out here in your small nonprofit has basically zero time in their day to think about current marketing trends. So curious, I don't know, with the question, what's a poor nonprofit? Executive director do You, I think I

[B]

just to totally double click on what you said. When I was a nonprofit executive director, I thought very little about marketing. I feel like that was. I thought about a lot of things. I was worried about a lot of things. That's one of the things that I felt like I never had enough time for and it was never a top priority. What I do think folks can be thinking about and can do immediately, regardless of size, like regardless of the size of your nonprofit or your donor base. Nonprofit leaders should stop turning inward and actually try to communicate more. People really appreciate there's a power in naming things and naming what is going on. Even if you don't have the answer, the reality is none of us have the answers. This is a really unprecedented moment in some ways. But communicating more is absolutely something that the people that care about your organization will appreciate. And that can result in more donations, bigger donations. If people know what's actually going on and what you need and what you're trying to do, that is incentive for them to continue to invest in you. If you go dark and you kind of, ooh, this is bad, let's have a strategy session all day, that may be what you need to do, but then come out of it and communicate. Communicate to your people. The other thing I would say, I'm sure you have your own tips too, Rhea, is don't do it alone. It can I really feel for. I have such tremendous respect and commemoration for development directors, development departments, the folks that are trying to raise the money and they are tasked to raise the money. They are not the only folks that should be thinking about how to raise the money. This is absolutely something board should be thinking about having a partner in the ED or CEO who is really thinking about how to leverage their position to maximize this relationship building. And even one of the things we talk about at the lab is a culture of philanthropy that making sure that all the people that work for the organization know what you do know how someone can donate if they want to. At the center, we had lots of folks that we helped with various issues who were like, how can I give back? Can I? What do I do? How do I get a membership? Making that really easy for people and figuring out who can help you so you don't feel like it's just you trying to raise all of this money is really important because it doesn't have to operate that way. And it can be a much lighter lift if you distribute the load and get other people engaged in helping you fundraise and spread the word. I know you've done this for a million years. How?

[A]

I know you and I, I think part of it is going back to basics. Right. We're living in this world of AI. We're all getting distracted by this new shiny thing and like, oh, is this AI thing going to change my life? But the truth is, AI is never going to human relationships. And especially because we are all so AIED out.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

I think we are all really craving authenticity. We're all really craving community. We're all really craving in person and small. And actually, this speaks a little bit to one of my bigger points is I. This is my prediction. You heard it here first. I think the gala model is dead. I think it's a slowly dying beast. I think there are some people that will hold onto it till the bitter end. Right. Anna Wintour is not going to give up on her gala. I get that. But for your average nonprofit, your small sub million nonprofit, I think it's dead because the amount of time, money, energy and resources it takes to raise money via a gala, compared to the roi, it's just not worth it. Now, you could measure it in other ways. You could say it's awareness, it's whatever. But at the end of the day, I'm a nuts and bolts kind of girl. Did it make money? And did it make more money than the money that you spent to put it on? And the soft cost of the emotional energy that it took because if you didn't at least break even. And let's face it, most probably don't even break even when you consider this off cost. It's just not an effective, efficient way to raise.

[B]

Ria, you are not getting an invite to the Met Gala next year. I think you should. I know you and your fashion is fabulous, but I don't think Anna Wintour is going to like this.

[A]

Anna, if you're listening, I'm really kidding.

[B]

I mean you.

[A]

I didn't mean you, Anna.

[B]

Yeah, obviously it's a different Anna. I here's what I so I slightly different hot take. When I was an executive director, I did not appreciate a gala. It was a ton of work and energy and I was worried every second of waking up to the gala, the gala, and then the second it was, there was a moment of relief and then you start thinking about next year. So I will say that I really believe in a sort of both and philosophy around galas. What I see that I do hope is dead. I would like people to stop this is putting all of their eggs in the gala basket. That is not the best way. That is not the only way to raise money. I remember when I was at a very small startup nonprofit and a number of the board members had this discussion and they agreed. Yeah, it's just I don't know how to raise money if we don't have an event. It's just so much easier to raise money for an event. And I remember thinking, oh, gosh, this is gonna be an uphill battle. We can't have an event every month in order to ask someone to buy a ticket versus asking them to support the organization. I think we get too hung up on, like, what am I gonna get? What are people gonna get? And the gala has become one of those things that people get. What's the food like? Who's coming to the after party? Who are the celebrities? The way to really tap into to people's, like people's generosity is not throwing a party with a thousand other people and doing that. The way, the best way to tap into that is building individual relationships. I will say I was thinking when you were talking about AI, I went to a gala earlier this week and this organization did something really smart. They had people, board members and staff members. Very quickly. This was free pitching. Please give money to the organization. Their pledge auction. They had people deliver a story. I met a client and this is what happened. And this is what we were able to do. And we want to. And because to your point, it was not AI, it was not a video. It was not like high tech. It was very low tech and very authentic and genuine. And you really, you wanted to give to these people, wanted more of what they were talking about. You wanted to help. And then they had the auctioneer hop on and do all the crazy making. But I really think those folks just speaking simply.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Of their experience was really helpful.

[A]

Yeah. So let's move on to recommendations. I think that the organizations that are going to come out of this stronger are the ones that have been really thoughtful and intentional about how do we build relationships for the long term? How are we putting the human experience at the center of the work, Whether it's fundraising or program delivery or whatever it may be. Here's the opportunity. I think that I don't think it's a coincidence that some of the great companies that we see were founded during times of recession. What I think is probably true is this is an opportunity to really get lean and think about the core of what you're doing and get better at what you do. Get better at communicating, get better at talking to your people, get Better at really crystallizing the problem that you're solving. And don't overcorrect. What I mean by that is I. You and I lived through 2008. We lived. The organizations that were reactive and hunting staff kind of prematurely, I think, are the ones that really suffered. I actually think if you have the bandwidth, right now is the time to double down on capacity. Right now is when you need to hire the good fundraisers, because, by the way, they've just left their job. They are out here. This is the time to build it up. So when the economy bounces back, you are in a position to take advantage.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. I do think. And the study says 30% of the nonprofits they surveyed experience staff reductions. I see it everywhere. Most organizations I know did some reduction of Staff either in 2025 or 2026, some of them both. I really think that your point, and this is something we talk to the members of the lab about all the time. Like Michael Hyatt has this concept of what do challenging times make possible? And one of the things that they make possible is really rethinking what you do all the time. And really, your advice about honing in on what do you do? What do you do best? How do you best tell that story? Who's the best storyteller? Who's the audience? That is so critical and fundamental to surviving this moment. It's not about doing all the things. It's not about trying all the things. It is about getting. What did you say? Back down to nuts and bolts. What are we here for? What are we trying to do? And how do we do that? Is really critical. I also just want to say, coming back to the gala for a second, I'm sure we've all been there. I've been there. At this gala, there was a person that raised his hand and gave $150,000. Now, any nonprofit leader would love that, would kill for that. I guarantee this gallon. I don't know him, but I feel very confident saying this was not the first time he came to the organization. This was not the first conversation. That is the result. What people see as a guy in the room raising his hand for a big amount of money. I promise you, that relationship has been cultivated for months, if not years. That is how you get to that exciting moment at a gala. So I want to pull back the curtain for folks a little bit, because I think that can be a very exciting thing, and we can be fooled into thinking that's just inspiration on one night, one speech. No way.

[A]

No way I call it the Mackenzie Scott effect. You're like, yeah, cool. Like, I would love for Mackenzie Scott to drop a million dollar check on me, but that is not a strategy you can count on. You might as well just buy a lottery ticket. And so I think do things that don't scale. And one of those things is get to know your donors really well. Ask questions, understand what lights them up and have that be reflected in the stories and messages that you're sending out. Because you also want to, you have to cut through the noise. We are, we have so much noise and chatter. It has to be so concise to capture the attention of the people who you're actually talking to.

[B]

Yes. And again, it's not about more ri and I started before the microphone turned on and talking about like TikTok and should I get on TikTok? No, I don't have to get vented. The answer is not more stuff. The answer is deeper. Go deeper with the relationships that you have. Figure out, go back to who do I know who would support what I'm doing and then build deep relationships with those people and equip them to be able to tell their friends, to be able to tell other people. One of the things they said at this gala that really rang true to me is we forget sometimes when we're fundraising, we're asking for money. Giving feels good. People that give away money actually feel really good about it. It's good for them, it's good for the organization. It's certainly good for the burned out nonprofit leader. So I think shifting our mindset as we're going into those conversations, not, oh, I have to ask this hard thing. I'm going to build, I'm going to build this relationship. And they know I want something from them. They want to make. Most people want to make a difference. They want to have an impact. And you are giving them an opportunity to do that. And when they actually say, yeah, I'll give you money to support that, that's a smile moment. That's like, that's a feel good moment for that donor and for the organization. So let's not forget that.

[A]

Yeah, I think I talk about this a lot, especially with major gift donations. It's. You are giving people the gift of meaning and purpose. Right. And so often people of means.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

Are once you make your money, I think people, naturally, not all people, obviously we could name names, but I think a lot normal people, a lot of people start to ask questions about legacy. What am I trying to leave behind? What is my life what did my life mean? How can I make a difference in this world? And I think, you know, certainly once you're in your 40s and 50s and above, I think you're asking these bigger philosophical questions, not necessarily just like, how do I make money? Which, look, I'm all for making money and how do I make meaning?

[B]

Yes, yes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I would argue again, not for everybody. Let's be clear. We're not talking about the tech bros out there. You know them. We don't need to name them. But I think for most people, giving money feels best when it's also meaningful, and that's when you raise the most money. You have to tap into. You're not. It's. It's not a financial transaction. It's not a negotiation around that. It's a negotiation around the meaning and the impact that person wants to have. And I think when we get my. My business partner, Joan Gary, put out something on Facebook recently that was so intriguing. She was like, what do people think about this thing that we all do all the now? About $10,000 buys you 2,500 meals for hungry people, or $1,000 buys you a night of shelter or something. We create these equations of, you give this, and it gets us that. Which I, to be honest, was, like, always thought was fine. But then I started really thinking about it, and I was like, there's a way that if we do this too much, we make it so it further makes it a math equation versus an actual conversation and relationship and partnership to try and get something done. And it reinforces. It can reinforce the I'm giving this. How much can I expect to get? How much can I expect? How many people? Exactly. And you and I both know we've run nonprofits. It doesn't always work like that. It's not always quite so linear.

[A]

Yeah. And I would say just something to

[B]

think about for folks out there.

[A]

Yeah, I would say about that, too. I would point to the work that Dr. Russell James is doing in Texas, which we know that giving is essentially an emotional decision. And so when we try to make it so, I think we miss an opportunity to really engage the emotional brain and the emotional part of giving, which is it feels good. It feels good to give it feel. I get to tell myself a story about who I am, and it's not necessarily because, oh, X plus Y equals Z, it's that, oh, I made a difference in this world. And, cool. I'd love to be able to point to 10 wells that I helped to do, but if we Boil it down too much to just the transactional X plus Y. I think we miss the richness of what's actually happening.

[B]

Absolutely agree. Look, on your deathbed, nobody's going to say, I feel so proud because I serve 2,499 meals. They're going to say, I feel so proud because I helped make sure people aren't hungry. It's emotional. It's emotional. It's not a math problem to solve.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Line up the right numbers, and then the checkbook just flies open. I sometimes wish it worked that way, but it doesn't. It does not work that way.

[A]

Yeah. That being said, though, and I will say this, I think that there is something really compelling when you have a number that feels very specific and audacious. So I think about, like, Brad Pitt. He had this nonprofit to build houses in New Orleans post Katrina and was very specific. We want to build X number of houses by Y number of years. Or I think about Tony Robbins and, like, his billion meals. Right. That is really compelling. And it has to go hand in hand with an emotional appeal.

[B]

Yes. 100%. Absolutely. Absolutely. Look, I'm not anti math. I'm not anti gala. I just think there, in order for all of those things to really work, you have to have the relationship piece underneath. Like you. It's about human beings. I just don't think that AI is ever going to be able to replicate that. And. And take.

[A]

Elon Musk has his way. It will. I was gonna say those, like, icky boyfriends and girlfriends. I'm like, gross. We're not gonna go there. That's a whole.

[B]

Really? Yeah. We're not gonna go there. Yep. Different podcast, but I'm so happy to be on this one. Thank you so much, Rhea.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Work you do and who you are.

[A]

The same to you, my friend. And I know, it's so funny. We were destined to be friends because before Glenda and I were actually nonprofit people. We were connected. So this is a shout out to CJ Crowder, who connected us and through CJ for your presence. Cj. All right, Glenda, always so fun to chat.

[B]

CJ is one of the best connectors I've ever known.

[A]

Cj.

[B]

Yeah. Thank you for that shout out. Rhea, good to see you.

[A]

Good to see you. And by the way, folks, if you want to learn more about the nonprofit leadership lab, we will put all of the info in the show notes if you are looking to be part of a community. So, Glenda, thank you so much, and have a great weekend.

[B]

Thank you. Thanks you too, Maria.

[A]

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