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Nonprofit Lowdown
#394- What Pricing Strategy Can Teach Us About Major Gifts with Claire Wang
00:37:49
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Hey, you, It's Rhea Wong. If you're listening to Nonprofit Load On, I'm pretty sure that you'd love my weekly newsletter. Every Tuesday morning, you get updates on
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Foreign.
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Welcome to Nonprofit Lowdown.
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I'm your host, Rhea Wong. Hey, podcast nerds. It's Ria Wong with you once again with Nonprofit Lowdown. Today I have a guest that is a little bit different than our typical guest. So I want to welcome my friend Claire Wong. She is a pricing strategist and the author of the upcoming book the Price of Influence, why Ideas Get Ignored, and How to Win. Yes. So today we're going to talk about Claire's background in pricing and how that relates to major guests. Claire, welcome to the show.
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C
Hello, Rhea. Lovely to be here. Thank you for the invite.
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B
I'm so excited. So, before we get started, what is a pricing strategist? What does that even mean?
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C
We are the group of people who helps organizations to decide a pricing price on anything you put senko, like a product or service. Think about when you buy a mobile plan. We are the group who decides how much you pay on a monthly basis, how much data allowances you have, how many international calling credits you have. Imagine if you buy a piece of insurance policy. We are behind calculating the risk and set the premium for you. That's what I do.
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B
So that's very interesting. When you're thinking about pricing strategy, how much of it is based on the hard numbers? You know what I imagine the. What do they call them?
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C
The science.
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B
Yeah, the science first. And how much is the psychological part? Because I think just as an example, an iPhone, it's a cell phone, right? Why is an iPhone significantly more expensive than a cell phone that I like? An Android, for example. What's the psychology behind pricing?
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C
Yeah, I guess when it comes down to get someone to pay for something, the decision is never 100% scientific because we are humans and human we make irrational decisions. So when it comes down to pricing, it's always 50% art, 50% science. And the art part is obviously trying to understand what makes people say yes. So there's a lot of study behind behavior, the psychology, how people think, and then the remaining is about calculating the cost, how to make financial sense.
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B
So walk me through this a little bit. What are the kind of psychological things that you think about when pricing? Because I think that's very relevant to fundraising. So we'll get into that in a second. But I'm just curious, what are the things that you think about from a psychological perspective when you're considering pricing? Sure.
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C
I guess when I say psychological, really the first step is trying to understand who is. And after you answer yourself that question, then the next question is, what are they really buying? And that what are they really buying? Comes down to fundamentally value. And I think this part you will resonate because I imagine when you try to get someone to gift, to give a donation, then it is fundamentally about value as well. It's about their identity, it's about their belief. So. So pricing a product is not that much different. When you think about a product, people buy it because they get something in return. And that something in return is never just the physical part. There's always some psychological part attached to it. Just take let's. A luxury handbag. When a woman buy a luxury handbag, they're not just buying a bag. They are buying a version of themselves. Maybe you buy that to celebrate a promotion, to celebrate a divorce. It's a transition. Similarly, when a man buys a watch, it can mean a lot of things. It's not about a device to just read the time. It's about something that signals something for them. And that signaling part is what I meant by value.
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B
The signaling part, that's so interesting. So when we think about the signaling part, obviously, to me, that suggests that I'm. There's something about my identity that I want people to know about the kind of person I am. Am I the kind of person that has a Rolex? Am I the kind of person that drives a Ferrari? And you. Are there any sort of frameworks or archetypes that we can think about when we're thinking about the identity of a person?
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C
I think. I wouldn't necessarily say there's a framework. It's probably to put more generally the art of listening. Because when it comes down to identity, even when you try to understand yourself, that process is always messy.
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Right.
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C
It's never a straight line. It's almost like a circular process. Maybe you think of a story. Maybe something happened in your childhood. Maybe someone said something or did something for you. All of that shaped who you are right now. Okay, I'm gonna. Let's just say Tommy Robbins, right? We all know he had childhood where I think there was the story I've heard him sharing quite a lot. Is there was one Thanksgiving, they were really poor. They didn't really have any food, and a stranger just gave them a bag of food. And it was because of that event. These days, he was really into giving to charity, who focused on feeding people. So that's his thing. And that's because that's an event that happened in his childhood. And when it comes to identity, we just need to listen to learn about the story of the person. And through that conversation, we get to learn what they care about and what shapes their value.
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So let me ask you this question, because I think a lot about the values that we have and as it relates to fundraising. Right. And so we might say, for example, the kind of person who would give to, say, an environmental nonprofit, but their value values align. Maybe they care about the environment. I'm wondering, when you think about pricing, can the same product align with different kinds of desires, or do you try to hone in on the one desire? So in other words, let's say, for example, okay, so maybe I'm an environmental nonprofit. I want to talk to the people who have a deep value about the environment. Maybe somebody who believes that I need to steward this for future generations. But should I also be thinking about a person who might say, I want to save the environment because it's like a. It's a cool thing. I want to be associated with this. Right. So I guess my question is, can one product or one pricing structure appeal to different kinds of values?
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C
Okay, let me put it this way. Well, when you think about value, it's not like an absolute stain, right?
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Right.
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If I try to break it down, there are really three components you can think about. It is perceived, it is comparative, and it is contextual. I'm just going to give you one example for each. Let's say perceived. Okay. So I really love my wines. And there's this Austrian glass maker that I like. It's called Zelto. And they make those wine glasses that just films like feather on your hands energy, but they are really easy to break. But for me, I will pay big premium to get those glasses because it just enhances my wine drinking experience. But for my dad, I know he would never spend money on that because for him it's just not practical. So you see, it's the same product, but depending on who the person values. So it's perceived. For me, the perceived value is high. For my dad, the perceived value is low. Now, it is also comparative. We're talking about wine glasses, so naturally the other good Austrian glass maker is. But when I compare the two, Redel is never as good because it just doesn't feel the same on my hands. So when I try, when I price or when I pay for it, naturally I'm willing to pay more to get a Delto glass, but not a retail glass. So you need to have this kind of benchmark to compare the two. And value. You can only do that when you have a comparison. And lastly, is contextual. So let's say I'm traveling and I just decided to go for a picnic. And of course I'm not going to get like a Zelto glass because it's easy to break, it's not so easy to carry. I would probably just go down to the supermarket and get something plastic, perhaps. So the context changes how I value things as well. So back to your question. Can the same environmental initiatives, of course, depending on who you talk to, the value of that will be different. And you need to ship the story that almost like a translation, depending on who you talk to, once you know what they value, then you can craft a story so that it matches their expectation.
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Yeah, there's so much to unpack here, but let me go here, because I know that a lot of people are listening to this and they're fundraisers and they've. Everyone, I'm sure, has had this question of if I ask somebody for a donation, how do I know how much to ask for? Right. And we can talk about all the tricks and tips people use, wealth, screens, et cetera, et cetera. My question to you, though, is how would we calibrate our asks based on somebody's value or the value that they receive in exchange for the donation?
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I don't know enough about the whole donation thing, but what I can tell you from the pricing perspective is when we are not sure, we start high because it's always easy to adjust your price down, then adjust your price high. But the comparison I could think of is, and I think this is the key difference between pricing and gift fundraising is when it comes to buying a product or service, when you price high, almost always there's gonna be some friction, there's gonna be some pushback. But in fundraising, I'm actually thinking by asking a lot, and if this is done right, it might have the opposite impact because that sends the signal to the donor that this is how significant you think they are. In a way, their value ties with that number. So, Riya, you tell me if this is the mentality, just from the outsider's perspective, this Is how I will approach this question is without knowing the value or without knowing how much they value something by asking high kind of sends out a good signal. And. And it can go from there.
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Yeah. I think typically it goes one of two ways. Right. So typically, somebody might be really flattered. Oh, my gosh, I'm flattered that you think that I could do such a high number. Or it can signal to someone, oh, you don't know me at all. Like, maybe it's almost like a backlash. You just demonstrated that you have no idea what my capacity is, why I would even consider such a thing. You know, have you even asked me about other things that I support? And if you had, you would know that is magnitudes above what I've given anybody else. So I think things could be true. And again, with. As with people, it just really depends. The thing. Go a step back, because what you
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say is really interesting. Back to. If I try to put a pricing framework on this, then the first two steps is step number one, know who. Who the buyer is. And in your case, it's the donor.
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Right.
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Step number two is know what they value. So if you really know about your donor, then before you talk to them, I think some due diligence is required.
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Right.
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You probably do need to do some research around what sort of initiatives they have been sponsoring in the past, what. What they value, what their business is all about. I think there are a lot of desktop research that probably can be done and gives you a good indication on whether you are really out of the ballpark.
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Yeah. And I want to loop back to this concept of know your buyer, because I think sometimes too don't know our buyer. We don't know who the other decision makers are. Right. And so I think in fundraising, sometimes, I think a lot of us have been. We have to have the pitch.
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Right.
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Some combination of words that we say that will magically unlock something. I think what's much more important is to listen. And I also think that we have to recognize that the person that you're talking to may not always be the buyer. So in other words, I've had cases in which I've talked to one person, but it actually was the wife or the husband, and the spouse the. Who made the philanthropic decisions. Or maybe it was like the. The family foundation's board that made the decision. Right. So I think too, starting with who is actually your buyer is a really important concept. And then the second thing that we talked about was, and what do they want?
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Yeah.
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Because I think sometimes we get so Clouded by our own judgment. Of course everybody would want to save the whales. Of course everybody would want to send kids to college, right?
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Yeah.
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But what do they really want?
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Yeah, I like that. Because in pricing, we see this a lot. Sometimes the people you are selling to, they are not the decision maker. Or they don't. Yeah, they don't have the power to make the final decision, or sometimes they don't have the budget to make the decision to say yes. And a few months ago, I was working with this professional speaker who came to me and she said, claire, I've been giving this talk to my clients for years and I've been charging them £500. And I know this is way too low, but I just cannot increase the price. So I asked her, all right, who do you speak to and what kind of topics do you speak about? And I speak mainly to schools and universities, to people who, you know about career transition. So I don't know about you, but do you see a problem here?
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Yeah, they don't have any money.
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Exactly. So when you point this out, it's so obvious, right? Schools and universities, they are funded by public money. And if that's your target audience, then of course they're not going to pay you. It doesn't matter how good your speech is, if your buyer doesn't have the means to pay you what you want, then you're just not going to get it. So after the fundraising part, I think the important part is probably also just to have a good idea about their wealth. And that's almost like your ceiling, Right. They cannot give you more than what they have. And then after that, the second step is really to find out who's the real decision maker for exactly the same reason you have mentioned. Sometimes you speak to the husband, but realize that actually the decision maker is the wife. So I felt like this all just comes down to listen, because it's just the only way you can find out about more information is try to listen and try to go along with where they are taking you.
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So let me ask you this, because it. And I'm just trying to wrap my head around this a little bit.
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Sorry, I'm just gonna move a little bit.
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I feel like. Yeah, all right, much better. So I want to talk about pricing as it relates to, let's call it the non logical purchase. So in other words, nobody needs a Ferrari, right? Nobody needs a Rolex, nobody needs a luxury handbag, and yet we buy it because we want it. Similarly, I would say in the world of nonprofits and the world of fundraising, rarely do people give because they themselves need it. Right. Maybe it's like, oh, I see that it does good things for my community, or, like, I have a family member who benefited or whatever it is, but it rarely is it like, I want that thing for myself. And so I'm. I guess my question is, how do you. Is it story, is it emotion? What is the thing that we have to be mindful of if we're pricing for something that frankly doesn't make logical sense? Because, in a sense, donating money doesn't actually make logical sense. It's a purely emotional decision. Yeah, I guess.
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Depends on how you define. Makes logical sense.
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Right.
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Because for a lot of the luxury products, like you've mentioned, a Ferrari, a Rolex, or a luxury handbags, when people buy those things, that emotional component is the logical thing and the only difference. And I see donation, gift, fundraising is very similar in buying a luxury product in the sense that the product here is actually the identity or the version of yourself that you want to become.
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Correct.
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And the only difference is that when you buy a physical product, normally you get two things. You get the physical thing, so maybe a car, and then you get this emotional thing, which is the identity or the version that you want to be identified with. But when it comes to gifting, then you don't have the physical component, unless you want your name to be on the building or whatever. But normally it's just the feeling. It's just the emotional, the intangible part that you get back, which is the version of yourself. So how much you want to give, it really ties down to the skill story. Is that number enough for me to tell my story? And only the donor knows what that number is. And I guess our job, your job as a fundraising professional is to find out what that number is?
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Yeah, yeah. That really aligns well with what I teach, which is that when we're at our best, we are helping people to make meaning of their lives. Right. We're helping them to tell the story of themselves that they want to tell about who they believe that they are in the world and that this gift will allow them to get the victory that they seek on the journey of their lives. Right. If we see ourselves as the main character of our own story, then how does this gift help me to tell myself this hero story of who I believe I am? So transitioning from a product perspective, I'm curious, how do products help people continue to tell the story?
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Right.
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So if I buy a Ferrari, I get the Ferrari, I feel really good about it for, I don't know, maybe a month while I'm metabolizing it. And then like after a month I'm like, okay, I have a Ferrari, but. And yet people, I imagine, buy multiple Ferraris, right? It's not just a one and done. So what's the. How do products think about helping people to reaffirm constantly this identity of I'm the kind of person who buys a Ferrari.
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C
I think you need to understand what they are really buying. And I like how you say some people just keeps buying Ferrari. And in that case, I don't actually think they are buying Ferrari per se. I think they are buying the chase, the hunt. They just always want the next thing. I'll tell you another story. I have this friend who used to collect drc. And if you're not a wine drinker, DRC is this bottle of wine that all the wine collector wants to get. It can cost like a small car, 20, 30,000 per bottle. And it's not just the money. Even if you have money, it's incredibly difficult to get a bottle because you have to spend years building up good relationship with the one merchant so that they can consider giving you an allocation. That's what my friend told me. He said, claire, you know what, after years of collecting this, I realized I just like the hunt. Like when it's out, he has his spreadsheet where he has the phone number of all the one merchant and he will call them one by one and he would say, I've got the cash. How many bottles can you give me? And I think after all, what he's buying is not the one. He just loved the chasing process. So back to your question. You need to find out what the donor is really buying apart from this identity. And I guess the easier way to sell is to sell to people who has already bought, Right? So if they have already given you in the past, then it's more likely they will give again. And you just need to find what that secret sauce is and continue to do it and build that trust over time.
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B
Sorry, I have a question, but I have to plug my computer in.
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C
One second. No problem.
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B
What was my question? It was here. Oh, yes, here was the question. Okay. Some of the times in fundraising, because I think what you're pointing out is the intangible sort of psychological part of fundraising and buying. And sometimes out in the world I see people trying to fundraise. Oh, if you give X amount of money, then Y number of kids will get served or, you know, X number of trees or Whatever it is. And I don't think that's wrong per se. But. But talk to me about your perception of that tactic, knowing that in fact, a big part of why we donate or why we buy is deeply psychological.
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C
I think it really depends on what type of fundraiser, sorry, donor you are dealing with. Some people, if they are, if they like to have control, then they might want to get more details about how the money has been spent. In those case, providing those nitty gritty details about 50 kids will be fed. This is how we're going to spend your money. This is the quarterly accounting report, Blah, blah, blah might be helpful. But for people who doesn't care about that kind of thing, then giving those information probably will not move the needle. So you need to again, back to the original question. What do they care about and what type of people they are. For example, if I were to give to a charity, then I would love to know how the money has been spent just to make sure it's not being wasted. But for some people who just want to leave a legacy or to be quoted to be the donor, maybe he doesn't care because being quoted is the main fault. So that part really lies down again in your conversation. You need to suss out by questioning them and to find out what is the core thing that they care about.
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B
Yeah. So how might we do that? Because I think when we first spoke, Claire, you said that there were some clues that we could use to kind of suss out what kind of buyer this person is. So the tips that we can take from you about how we discern our
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buyer, how we deserve. I think maybe the first thing is to realize that how your donor thinks might be very different to how you think. And what I meant by that is, again, using myself as an example, I am quite structured when I approach a question or try to solve a problem. I like to have a linear approach. This is the problem, this is the solution. This is why we need to do this solution. Because we can get a, B or C. Right? But for some people, they might process information in a more circular way. When you talk to them, you might feel like, wait, we are talking about this and this person is talking about why. And you felt like, why are you always going off tangent? Maybe you were on a slide and you were trying to explain how the money will be spent, how it can fit 50 kids. And then they started talking about, oh, you know what, when I was a kid, I didn't have money to have lunch. But you have to hold your tendency to want to bring him back on course. Because that is not off tangent, that is actually they them giving you the signal that they are about to share something important about them. And you just have to allow that conversation to happen. And I think that having that awareness is important just to know that when they share a story which seems to be irrelevant to the topic you are talking about, it might be a signal that they want to talk about the real thing that they pay attention to.
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B
So what are some other clues? So it's linear versus circular. Are there any other things that we should be listening for in terms of trying to communicate in the same language as our buyer?
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C
I tend to find that people who prefer this kind of structural linear approach, they like to summarize things. They want to feel they are in control about the journey. So they want to know if we're going from place A to place E. They want to know place, where is place B, C and D. So when they feel like they are not on that track, they are asking you questions for you to take them back. For example, they might say, hey, let's just take a close here, can you please roughly show me what we're going to be discussing today? Or they might say, from what I'm hearing, are you saying the benefit of doing this is X, Y and Z? Okay, so I felt they, they have this need to stay in control. Whereas when you talk to people who think more in a circular fashion, I, they don't really care so much. And in fact they might be the one who take you everywhere. Basically allow that room for them to roam because they have to zoom out before they can zoom in.
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B
Are there any other sort of categories that we should be thinking about? Linear versus circular? Maybe a cerebral versus emotional. Anything else that we should be keeping our ears open for?
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C
I guess the other one at least in pricing because we deal with a range of different stakeholders and they all think quite differently. You have to know what's the key driver that influence their decision making. Some people are more fact based to see numbers. They want to see who else has been giving. They want to see who else have you been working with in the past. It's numbers is their way to assess you on your credibility. But then you might also deal with again, I'm just using like pricing experiences here. Sometimes you deal with people who just care about testimonial. They don't care so much about the number, they just want to see, oh, someone I know has also made this donation and that's all they need. Or someone they know recommended you to them and that's all they need. It's more about figuring out the shortcut to get their trust. And for some people it's information, more information. And for some people it's testimonial credibility. For others it can be whatever. So those are the parallel I could think of in pricing that could potentially be useful to think about when you talk to your donors.
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B
Okay, last question for me because I think this is really interesting. When we spoke before, you were talking about the buying experience, right. And the buying experience with a premium product versus let's say a less premium product.
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A
Right.
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B
So I'm just thinking product, an everyday product. Thank you. I'm thinking about the difference in experience between, I don't know, ordering something on Amazon. I ordered dish soap on Amazon. It's like, okay, they dumped it on my front door, I opened it, fine, done. Versus when I buy an Apple product, it, even if I buy it online, it's a whole experience, right. I go to the website, it looks very nice, they send me the thing, I opened the box, the box feels really premium. The visceral experience of opening it feels very premium. So I say this all to say I think that there's some value in fundraisers thinking about the donor experience as a premium product. So can you walk me through a little bit about if you were to design a five star donor experience from the first introduction through the gift, what would you recommend and where do you think people watch the touch points the most?
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C
Yeah, I think I'll give you a product example and then you can translate that because I don't know exactly how many touch points you have. But let's just take the iPhone as the, I guess something we are all familiar with. When you buy an iPhone, there are several touch points that a customer would have with Apple, the company. The first touch point would be when you want to buy an iPhone and you want to find out more about information about the price. So you will go to Apple's website for example, and you will try to find the price. And I've done this so many times and it's a very pleasant experience. You go on their website and you click on the model of the iPhone and then you see the price or another button will be more specs, whoever else you know compared to. Sometimes you go to other SaaS website, you're trying to find price, you just go through the entire pages and then you land on something, call us or drop us an email. And that's just annoying, right? All you want to get is the price and they don't give you that. So that's the first touch point. It's about information or acquiring information. And then the second touch point can be like the actual buying action when you go to the shop or when you place an order online. Is that experience easy? Does it feel, like, frictionless? You know, if I go to the Apple Store and the guy at the door took my name down and then, you know, I wait for five minutes, I get my platform, I'm happy. It's a very frictionless experience. But if I go to a shop where I didn't know who I can ask, and I was being put there queuing for half an hour, one hour, then it's not so nice. So when it comes down to. And I guess in the donor example, I could imagine this would be you actually sitting either in a physical meeting or having an online conversation with your donor.
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B
Does it feel frictionless?
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C
Did you show up on time? Is there any technical issue you have to pay attention to? Even the smallest thing? Because, you know, people phone their first impression by that first five seconds. And if that first five seconds is not nice, then it's kind of like a filter. They start judging you through that first five seconds. You have to get it right. And then even after buying, you know, with Apple, if there's something wrong with my phone, I know I can always take it back. And if they can't fix it, they give you a refurbished version. With fundraising, I suppose after the gift, it's not the end, right? It's sort of like the start of the relationship. So after the gift, you might want to give them update or depends on how they prefer to be informed. And then maybe in the future, the following year, you might engage with them again. But it's not like you want something from them and then you show up. I think in between after they detail the next time you ask them for this again, all these little points, I don't know the frequency, but, you know, you will be the best person to know. You need to create that connection. Yeah, yeah. Because, yeah, like, when you show up, you build up and you have to make sure you continue to build. About Journey.
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B
Yeah, that's such an interesting point. Because if we really think about it in the context of buying, I think we should really consider donations to be a luxury product. Even if it's like $5. Right. Because luxury in the sense of, I think donating is largely discretionary, right? Like, nobody ever has to donate. They choose to donate. Just like no one has to buy a Ferrari, they choose to Buy a Ferrari. And so therefore, how can we make the experience as frictionless and delightful as possible? So if you're listening to this, one thing I might recommend is go back to your website, give some money yourself, see how easy it is to give, see what kind of emails you get back. Put yourself through your own funnel just to understand what your donor goes through.
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C
I think that's, you know, that's such a good idea because in our call earlier we talk about empathy. And I think really you have to go through and see that from your own perspective to experience what the other person thinks like and be on the other side of the fence. I guess that's the word I'm trying to look for. Yeah.
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B
Claire, this has been very interesting. I really appreciate you being here. I've learned so much about pricing and now I'm thinking about how we can really apply these principles to fundraising. So thank you so much for being on the show.
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C
My pleasure. I had good fun and, you know, also learned a lot about how you guys run this fascinating area.
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B
Is there anything else I didn't ask about that you feel like folks should know about pricing before we jump off?
- [34:27]
C
Oh, that's a very good question. Is there anything you haven't asked that I think you should know? I would double down on that empathy sometimes. I feel. So in pricing, we don't always have the luxury of pricing things that we've never experienced. And let me just give you an example. I have a friend who works, he works in Hong Kong and he looks after luxury hotel pricing. And he told me, you know, he grew up solid middle class. And he said, I've never stayed at a five star hotel until in my early twenties when I joined this hotel group. They put all the employees to stay at a hotel for us to experience. But still to this day, he has to price some really high end hotel where staying one night will cost you like five grand or something like that. And he told me this is just not something I will ever pay for. And I have never experienced that. So how does he get that experience? So he relies on research. And the research has only one purpose, which is to help him to see things through the lens of his customers. So he's not his own customer in a sense. And I guess when you talk about fundraising, asking people to donate, let's say, I don't know, 50,000, a million dollars, not all of us can afford to donate that amount of money.
- [35:49]
B
Right.
- [35:49]
C
But you still need to understand what the donor thinks. And the big part is through developing that perspective either through research, through talking to more people because it's an experience you've never had and maybe you might not have in the future as well.
- [36:06]
B
So what I hear you saying is that your friend needs someone to stay at luxury hotels as research and if he needs someone to do that, just let me know. I'd be willing to sacrifice to stay in a luxury hotel just to help him understand the buyer.
- [36:23]
C
Yeah, I think he would have no trouble recruiting both volunteers put me on that list.
- [36:29]
B
But yes, I think that's a really good point of both thinking through because I think historically we are very good at thinking through empathetic eyes for the clients that we serve, but probably less so from the donor's perspective. So that's a really good reminder to us all. So Claire, thank you so much for being on the show. I will make sure that your information is in the show notes and that your book that is coming out which is so exciting. It's due in September, right?
- [36:59]
C
Yes, exactly. Thank you so much.
- [37:01]
B
And we'll make sure that we put your info in the show notes. If you're interested in buying Claire's book, which you should, if you are a fundraiser, get in contact with Claire. All right, thanks so much Claire.
- [37:09]
C
I appreciate it. Thanks so much. Bye.
- [37:13]
A
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