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- [00:00]
A
Hey, podcast listeners, it's Rhea Wong with you once again with nonprofit Lowdown Today. I am delighted because we have a repeat guest, my friend Tony Martinetti. He is the author of the upcoming book Planned Giving Accelerated and he is the evangelist for planned giving. So, Tony, welcome back to the show.
- [00:20]
B
Ria Wong, thank you so much for having me. I love it. Thank you very, you're very generous. Thanks very much.
- [00:26]
A
We love having you. Because here's the thing, I feel like there's so many misconceptions, people get very in their feelings about planned giving. So before we jump in any further, for those of us who might be super newbies to this, what does planned giving mean? What? When I hear this term planned giving, I I don't know what that means. Is that the same as legacy giving? Is it the same as bequest? Break this down for me.
- [00:52]
B
Absolutely. Planned giving is long term gifts to your nonprofit in somebody's estate plan or their retirement plan. The easiest example is the one you mentioned. Bequests, gifts and wills. Those are by far the most popular planned gift. Those are the planned. That's the planned gift that I urge folks in the book to, to launch their program with. Because they're the most popular planned gift. They're the easiest one to understand. And yeah, you could call it legacy gifts. I use planned giving. You know, planned giving is in my company name, Martinetti Plan to Giving Advisors. The book is Planned Giving Accelerated. I'm pretty devoted to planned giving as a phrase, but legacy giving works. It's perfectly fine that, that they mean the same thing. Long term gifts in an estate plan or a retirement plan.
- [01:43]
A
Okay, so let me get into this because I think this is one of the biggest shifts that you helped me make is I think that there's this perception out here that, oh, plan giving or legacy giving, it seems really complicated. And it's not something that I can do if I'm a small or mid level organization. Right? Like it's for the big guys, it's for the Met opera, it's for, you know, the museums. Is that true or untrue?
- [02:09]
B
Untrue. That is one of the nasty myths of planned giving. That it's so complicated that we can't do it in a smaller midsize shop. I wrote the book for small and midsize shops to, to debunk these nasty myths and that's one of them. That it's so complicated that we can't do it. And then another nasty myth. We're going to be talking to people about their death I'm not going to have death conversations with my donors. All right, Those are in the book. I have two Tony's Top Six Myths of Planned Giving. We just talked about two of them. It's too complicated and it's a death conversation. So can I take those one at a time?
- [02:48]
A
Yeah, actually. But before you do, one thing that I'd love for you to talk about because you know, here on Nonprofit Lowdown we're really into actionable things that folks can do.
- [02:58]
B
Please. Yes.
- [02:59]
A
What is a small thing that I could do as an overwhelmed executive director of a small nonprofit to even get my foot in the door with planned giving?
- [03:08]
B
Query your CRM database strictly for longevity, long term giving, loyalty, consistency of donors, and those are your. Then you've identified your top plan giving prospects.
- [03:23]
A
Okay, so what would longevity look like? Because I think one of the things that you and I have talked about is the plan giving prospect could be giving $10 a year. It's not necessarily tied to the quant quantity. It's tied to the longevity. So as an example, like who would be a good plan giving candidate? If I'm looking at my database, you
- [03:43]
B
remember very well from our conversation a couple years ago, I love it. So you took some things away. Thank you. That moves me. You remember. Thank you.
- [03:51]
A
I do remember. It's true.
- [03:53]
B
You're spot on. It does not matter. When I was saying, querying your database, I didn't say anything about the lifetime value, the average gift. We don't care. We don't care. I'll take your example. Average gift, $10. And they've been doing that for 10, 15, 20, 25 years. And you'll find that, I mean if your non profit is 25, 30, 40, 50 years old, you have donors who have been giving to you for 20, 25 years. And if their average gift was, which means their lifetime giving was made over though all those years is, I don't know, a thousand dollars or maybe 1200, $1500. Doesn't matter. You want the longevity and the loyalty and the consistency. Just like you were saying, Ria. It doesn't matter what the lifetime value is, what the average gift size is. These are the people who are giving to you once a year and maybe sometimes multiple times in a year. If you're soliciting multiple times through, through digital or print, you may be getting multiple small gifts from them a year. So that's what you're looking for. The only little caveat I would put on it is not currently lapsed. I like folks who are still with us. So they did make a gift within the past, however you define lapsed. 12 months, 18 months, 24 months. They have made a gift within your definition of lapsed. But if they lapsed a couple of years ago or several years ago, and then they came back to the family. Absolutely. As long as they're current, I don't care about the dollar amount. It's the loyalty and consistency.
- [05:21]
A
I love that. Now, what about if I'm a relatively new nonprofit? So let's say I was founded within the last five years. Is that too soon for me to be thinking about a planned giving strategy?
- [05:32]
B
In my mind, five years is the cutoff. Yeah. If you're younger. If you're younger than five years, donors are going to have a concern about whether you're going to outlive them. Right. Survive them more than five years. That's kind of where I make the cut off. Now, I. You know, I do say in the book, you might be interested in thinking ahead if your nonprofit is younger than five years old. But that's about the point where I would start with, you know, your donors are going to be comfortable. There's more than just passion for the. For the mission. You know, you've got some. You've got some track history, some track record. What do we call that? Track record? We got a record behind you. You got a history behind you. At least five years. I like to see.
- [06:11]
A
Yeah, got it. Okay, so let's talk about one of the myths, because I can imagine if I'm a nonprofit executive director, and I'm like, gee, you know, plan giving seems like a great idea, but, God, Tony, like, how do I talk to people about death? Like, I. It's so uncomfortable for me to say, hey, Tony, you've been given for us to us for 10 years. What do you say? You put us in the will so that when you die.
- [06:35]
B
Okay. All right. The death myth that. The myth that this is a death conversation with your donors. That one. I told you. I've got Tony's top six myths of planting.
- [06:45]
A
Yeah, I wanna. I wanna know what the other four are, but.
- [06:48]
B
Okay, absolutely, we'll get to them. Five of them are in one chapter. The sixth one is the death myth. That one is so insidious and hateful to me that I. It's got its own short chapter. So I'm gonna turn that myth on its head. It's not a conversation about death at all. It's a conversation about life. The life and longevity of your nonprofit, of your work, your mission, your values in Your community, however you define community, it might be your local community, state, province. If you're in Canada, the nation or the world might be your community. However you define community, you know that you. Your donor, who you're talking to, because they are long term. They're a long term donor or donor couple partners. They're committed to your work. Obviously, you're committed to your work. You wouldn't be raising money for it. That's what you have in common. That's what the conversation is about, the life of your nonprofit for the decades, for decades and generations to come. And the planned gift that we're talking about is gonna stave off that ugly future where our work ceases in 20 or 25 years. We're gonna. We're working to prevent that. We're focused on the sustainability of the work.
- [08:04]
A
Okay.
- [08:05]
B
So, Tony, that's really what the conversation's about, the life and longevity of your nonprofit.
- [08:11]
A
So, Tony, walk me through an example of how I might broach this conversation, because I know people, even though you say it's about life and longevity, and frankly, also about the longevity of the donor's legacy. Right. Like, everyone likes to think that they have some kind of impact beyond their. Beyond the grave.
- [08:30]
B
They do. Yeah.
- [08:31]
A
What would I say? Can you give me an example of what I might say in a conversation so that it becomes a natural next step rather than this awkward like, oh, now I. Now I have to talk about death and legacy.
- [08:46]
B
Yeah, well, we know you're not talking about death. Definitely. It's a conversation about life and the way to lead into it. Absolutely. Because I love that, you know, you're focused on action steps. Yeah, absolutely. That's. I'm devoted to that. I've all my training. The book is that way. So you're having a conversation. Of course, you're leading in naturally, but eventually leading, you know, with your asking how the family is, how their travel was, did the surgery go okay, all that stuff. Right. And then you bring it around to your work and that you're focused now on the long term. You're really focusing on the sustainability of the work, and you're asking lots of loyal, committed donors just like you. Now I'm channeling the fundraiser. The CEO or the fundraiser.
- [09:35]
A
Yep.
- [09:35]
B
We're asking the loyal donors, just like you, and thank you for all the giving that has brought us to this moment. We're asking if folks would consider including us in their will. And is that something that you would consider? Would you consider including us in your will? So that's the way to that's the way to get into it, that you're focused on the long term. The person you're speaking to is not the only prospect we're asking. There's lots of folks, all the loyal donors, and would you consider including us?
- [10:03]
A
So one of the things that comes up, and this is more of a CFO question, is there's no way to know really what that amount is. Right? Because in some cases you, it's a percentage of the estate left behind. And like, you have no idea how long people will live or what is left. Is there ever a case when you could inquire, like, if someone did earmark a specific sum, like, how do we broach that conversation? And also if we ask someone, would you consider leaving us in your will? And they say, yes, where do we go from there? It's like, okay, great. How do I confirm that? Like, I. How do I know that that's happened?
- [10:42]
B
Okay. Your nonprofit has the option of asking for a simple documentation. I have a template in the book that, you know, it's totally non binding. It's just, it's an expression of the person's current interest. It's not legally binding. But some people will fill out a form like that and they'll tell, they'll give you an approximate amount. Now, we can't fully satisfy the CFO that you were channeling because we don't know when the person is going to die. So we don't have a bookable asset that has a fixed value and a fixed future date. We don't have that. We have an estimate. And that's really all we can. That's really all we, that's really all we can plan. And it's really not even a budgeting plan. It's not something you can budget against. Just. It's a placeholder, if you like. And so that's the, that's on the, on the financial side, the person says, yes, I'll do it. And some people will, you know, that I'll be first to let folks know and certainly concede. That's not going to be the most popular answer. The most popular answer is probably going to be. Is very likely to be. Let me think about it. I got to talk to my spouse, my partner, maybe the other folks in my family. Let me think about it. But for the person who does. And I've had it, I've had it lots and lots of times. You know what? I do love the work that much. I'll do it. I like to follow up, my immediate follow up is either a handshake or a hug. That's the first. Now if you don't know the person well enough, don't go, don't reach across the table, don't go hugging, don't go hugging. But if you know them because they are loyal, committed, long term donors, these are the folks you have very good relationships with, you might know them well enough, a big hug. I would get up from my seat and give a hug if it's appropriate. If not, handshake. Effusive thanks. Effusive thanks.
- [12:23]
A
Now what?
- [12:24]
B
Yeah, and then the follow up. And then, you know, when can I follow up? You know, you don't want to jump on what. How much do you think it might be? Is this a percentage or a dollar fixed dollar amount, you know. No, no, no, no, no, no. They may never share that and certainly not in the first instance. It's just effusive thanks. Then I like to see a more formal thanks. That could be a handwritten note from the CEO. I love, I'm a big fan of handwritten notes because so few people do them. If you're, if you or your CEO don't want to do a handwritten note, then certainly a more formal, you know, type note, word document is fine. But yeah, some expression of thanks. If you have a recognition society, not that you need one to start having these conversations, you do not. You can do that down the road six months or a year from now. You can inaugurate a recognition society for your plan giving donors. You don't need that as a, don't put that up as an obstacle to get started in the conversations. But if you do have yours, if you have one, you certainly, you're going to welcome them to that in your formal letter and then you're going to make them just, they're VIPs, they're insiders because think of what they've done, Rhea. Put you alongside husband, wife, partner, children, grandchildren in your, in their will. They've raised you to that level. They love you as much as they love their loved ones. That's a big step and you need to keep in touch. Treat them like VIPs. If you have insider communications, they certainly deserve to get that. If you get, you have VIP receptions before an event, I think they deserve an invitation to the VIP reception. Treat them like insiders, like you probably are treating. Hopefully you're treating your, your major donors. These folks are insiders just like that because they've put you right alongside their loved ones in their will.
- [14:07]
A
Yeah. Yeah. And you know, Tony, I've really been a fan of planned giving ever since I heard Deborah Antoine here in New York, she used to Fundraise for Channel 13. I talk about this all the time. She said the biggest donors they had, she ever had were retired school teachers who throughout their lifetime gave, you know, $10 every year. But because when they passed away and they had pensions and they had used channel 13 in their teaching, all of a sudden there was a million dollar gift out of nowhere.
- [14:35]
B
Exactly.
- [14:35]
A
Right.
- [14:35]
B
Yeah. I've seen, I've with clients, I've seen those New York City based gifts from trs, the Teacher's Retirement System. Yes. I've seen million dollar gifts from, from teachers, retired teachers. Absolutely. That $10 a year, maybe sometimes two gifts of $10 in a year and then that retirement because our assets are so much larger than what we have disposable income while we're, while we're living.
- [15:06]
A
And I think that that's such a lesson for all of us, whether you're doing capital campaigns, planned or major gifts, is that the money is in assets. Right. So I think we need to stop asking about the credit card donation or the check and really think about things like the donor advised funds, the family foundations, the stock, the planned giving, the will, the estate. I mean that's really where the game changing money is.
- [15:32]
B
Yeah, absolutely spot on. That brings up something I talk about in the book the planned giving multiplier, which is just simply how many times larger than lifetime giving a person's planned gift is? I mean I've seen it many thousands of times larger where the person's lifetime giving is like fifteen hundred dollars and there's a six or seven figure estate gift, gift, a gift in their will planned. So there's just a multiplier many thousands of times larger where I'm just amplifying the point you just made. There's a lot of wealth available, not thinking of the types of gifts that come from people's income.
- [16:10]
A
That's right. That's right. So one thing that I, I've always been a little bit intimidated by, and as a lawyer I'm sure this might resonate with you, is to me why plan giving has always been a little, is the complication when you get into the more sophisticated like well, you know, you give us a gift and then you get lifetime income or you know, all these sort of like complicated vehicles. And I'm like, I don't know what to do with that. I mean I'm not a lawyer, I'm not an accountant. I'm not a financial planner. How do I attack that if I'm just an executive director of a small or medium sized nonprofit that has a million other things going on?
- [16:51]
B
Exactly right. That's who I wrote the book for. Yeah. That's why we're focused on gifts in wills. We're just talking to folks about gifts in their will because everybody knows what a will is, Everybody knows how wills work, and everybody knows they need to have a will. So those three things are in your favor about wills. They're simple. Now, if somebody brings up some other kind of gift, like you're saying charitable gift annuities or some kind of remainder trust or even rea. Even just they start asking technical details about wills. Should I make this a percentage or a dollar amount? Should this be residual? You know, what does that mean? What's residual? I've heard that word. You're politely referring them to their own professional advisors. An estate planning attorney, maybe a financial pro, a financial professional, maybe a cpa. You're. The conversation you're having with folks is again about what you two have in common. The work, the longevity of the work, how important that is in the community, what the value of a long term gift is for that work. That's what the conversation is. Anything technical about the more, the more sort of maybe esoteric planned gifts. You're politely referring those, those questions to the person's professional advisors. And I do have a chapter that's. I stuffed all those other methods of planned giving into one chapter because the book is about launching with gifts and wills.
- [18:16]
A
Yeah.
- [18:16]
B
But I wanted folks to have a resource. You know, you could turn to answer questions about charitable trusts or charitable gift annuities or donor advised funds. And those are valuable gifts. I'm not, by no means am I minimizing those gifts at all. I mean, I'm the evangelist for planned giving. I love them all. But the place to start to launch your program for small and midsize nonprofits, the place to start is gifts and wills.
- [18:38]
A
I love that. What are the other myths that you have? So the six myths. So one is it's about. It's not a conversation about death, it's a conversation about life. 2.
- [18:49]
B
Right.
- [18:49]
A
People who may be your top prospects don't necessarily look like your top prospects. What are the other myths that you want to cover?
- [18:56]
B
That it's not. That it's too complicated. I mean, we talked about that one a little bit.
- [19:00]
A
Okay.
- [19:01]
B
Absolutely. Right. That it's not only for our wealthy donors. Absolutely. Related to. It's not Being too complicated that it requires expertise. We need to have an attorney on the board or a consultant. I used to be an attorney, by the way. You were very gracious. I'm a retired attorney. I don't practice anymore. I found my joy of planned giving consulting. So I'm a consultant and a. And a former lawyer. And I'm telling you, you don't need a consultant or a lawyer. You can do this on your own when you're launching. With simple gifts in wills. So it does not require expertise. Another one is that we have to offer a lot of gift options. You and I talk through that. I'm just naming it as one of Tony's top six planned giving myths. You do not. Simple gifts in wills. That's the place to launch. Another one that we haven't talked about is that it's going to hurt our other fundraising.
- [19:53]
A
Oh, yes.
- [19:55]
B
Handling the naysayers. Oh, you're going to kill our other. You're going to kill our annual fund. People are going to stop giving once they put us in their will. No, no, the naysayers. I'm sorry. First of all, you should think more highly of your donors than to think they're going to cut you off during life just because they put you in their will. I. You should think more highly of our. Our supporters. But in addition, I've been doing plan giving since 1997, so 29 years. I've seen lots and lots of people increase their other giving. And why is that, Rhea? Because they now feel so close. Because they did what I said earlier. They put you alongside their husband, wife, partner, children, grandchildren in their will. They love you that much. They realize how close they feel. Even closer. But in the book, I don't only cite because you might say, well, Tony, 29 years of anecdotes. All he's got is anecdotes to offer. No good. No good. I cite the research of Professor Russell James, who's at Texas Tech University. You love him, right? He's a source. You know him. Okay. He has, you know, he studies planned giving quantitatively. That's his research area at Texas Tech University. He has research on this. On average, 75% of the people who include a charity in their will. And his research was specific to gifts and wills, not even all planned gifts. This was gifts and wills. 75% of those folks will increase their other giving to that same nonprofit. So the nasty myth is that it's going to hurt our other fundraising. I'm sorry, naysayer. Quite the opposite. It's actually Going to increase. So aside from that naysayer, you were correct.
- [21:39]
A
Well, you know, I have to say too, it seems like it makes so much sense from an ROI perspective because the gifts have the potential to be so much bigger. So I'm wondering, given the fact that we are talking about medium to small nonprofits that are already constrained with staff, how much staff time do you think it would take in order to run a reasonable planned giving program?
- [22:04]
B
Yeah, you ask great questions. I love it. Thank you. A very thoughtful question. Very thoughtful question. I'm trying to get folks to launch. So I would say in your, in your first month, when you're starting to have conversations with your top prospects, let's say you identified, you know, you, you, you decided you have the bandwidth to personally cultivate and solicit. These are your top prospects. Not all year, because then, then there's tier two prospects. But let's say you identified six people. I would say 10 hours in a month.
- [22:34]
A
Okay.
- [22:35]
B
And maybe not even that, but you're just trying to get meetings and these are loyal, committed donors. So odds are they're taking your meeting, they, they take your calls, they respond to your emails, maybe Even less than 10 hours a month because we got to work within your constrained bandwidth. You're absolutely right. I mean, I, I work with small and mid sized nonprofits. I don't, I don't just preach to them. I work, I roll up my sleeves and work with them. I know that, you know, even six might be a lot. Maybe it's only three. Three or four. That's three or four more top plan giving prospects than you had the week before. You did that query in your database for all that loyalty and longevity. And then there's one more thing I wanted to add to that, the querying, because you're about action steps. Once you query for the longevity, then you're looking for the folks who you have, you or somebody has a close relationship with that, that they do that the donor does, take your calls, respond to your emails, come to events, you're engaged with them. It's not just somebody who's been giving long term, but you don't really know them. They're a very, that person would be a very good tier 2 prospect. And we'd approach them, you know, on a larger scale, either digital or print. But we're talking about your top prospects who get personal one on one cultivation, solicitation. And you've already done a lot of the cultivation because they love your work. So you're querying for that loyalty and Then in that list, you're looking for the however many you feel you can manage. And if it's only three or four, that's fantastic. You're launching plan giving. When you identify those top prospects, those folks who take your calls and they'll take a meeting.
- [24:10]
A
Can I share a little bit of a pet peeve with you? And I'm sure this will resonate with you. So I focus on major gifts, you focus on plan gifts. And I think you have to have a longer view, perspective about these sorts of things. Right. We know on average it takes about 18 months to land a major gift. With your plan giving, you're looking at donors over a long period of time. How do you, I guess, how do you frame this for people who are thinking very short term? Because I know we get into, in the nonprofit world thinking about the next quarter or the next fiscal year, and we have a hard time thinking beyond the 10 year horizon of like, what's the legacy of the organization, Whether it's board members who are putting the pressure on us for a short term win or it's an ed. So how might I make the case? If I'm listening to you and I'm like, Tony, this makes a lot of sense, but how do I get people on board here?
- [25:04]
B
It goes back to the, to the sustainability, the endowment, your board. If you have a finance committee, the board may be concerned, or that committee may be concerned that your endowment is too small, or you may not even have an endowment for the next financial crisis, for the next fundraising crisis. Whatever form it takes. It's really, it is some reorientation and it is a long term focus. Absolutely. You know, I can't, there's no way around that. These are long term gifts. If a 70 year old puts you in their will, that person may live for another 20, 25, 30 years. It is long term, but again, it's the importance of the mission in the community for the long term. We certainly have immediate term needs, we have midterm needs and we have long term. I can't make it any more appealing than if you're talking to a board. Maybe some of them have their own businesses. Don't they focus on the long term of their business in terms of succession planning, in terms of investment in, in long term, whether capital or long term labor expenses or whatever kind of long term expenses, long term investments they're making. You're trying to invest in the long term of, of your business. These are businesses. I'm sure you agree, Ria.
- [26:22]
A
Yes.
- [26:22]
B
I know you. I Know your perspective. You're running a business, just happens to be a nonprofit business, but it's. Right, it's incorporated as a business, a nonprofit business. And it has long term needs and sustainability issues. Yeah, just like your donors or your board members, businesses, corporate for profit businesses have long term investment needs. You know, we're, we're focused on our long term now.
- [26:46]
A
Yeah, good point. All right, I have last two questions for you as we wrap up. So let's walk me through what happened. So I'm, you know, I'm sitting at my desk one day, I open up an envelope and there's a $50,000 check from someone that I didn't even know. Or actually, more realistically, I'm alerted in some way that I am the recipient of a bequest. What do I do?
- [27:13]
B
Okay. 90% of the time, it's an attorney law firm. You have the contact information. I think it's a good idea to reach out and just establish a relationship. They're not going to be sending because you're saying that you got the notice. You just got the notice. It's called the notice of probate, that you're named as a beneficiary of this estate. So the check is not going to be coming in a week. It could easily be six months in the New York metro area. Well, I should say in the five boroughs of New York. It could be a couple of years. Even the five boroughs are backlogged. Manhattan, New York, New York county happens to be the worst backlog since COVID and that was six years ago. And they're still backlog. So it depends on how. If it's how backlogged the court is in the county where the person died, if they died in a rural county in Connecticut or in the Midwest, it could be a lot quicker distribution. But it's still not going to be a matter of a couple weeks. It's several months at least. So I think it's a good idea to reach out. Just establish contact, let them know that this gift is important to you. If you know anyone else in the family, condolences are appropriate. If you. I feel like my voice just cracked. Appropriate. Sorry, like I'm 14. Appropriate. If you know anyone else in the family, that happens occasionally. Certainly extend condolences from yourself, from the nonprofit. If you don't know anyone, if it's else in the family, it's really not appropriate. You could ask the attorney if they'll convey a message of condolences and gratitude for the gift, but it's not done that's really not too. Done too often because you're, you're kind of seeming like now you're just in touch with the family because the person died who has you in their will. So it's better to really just deal with the attorney who's named in that. In that notice. Or it might be the executor themselves. Even if the, if the person is named, I think it's a good idea to make contact.
- [29:05]
A
Okay, here's something I'm just wondering, and maybe this is an outlier situation, but is there ever a case that we would ever receive a notice and somehow not get the money? Like either the executor blocks it or like, is there any world in which we. The gift wouldn't come once we received notice.
- [29:27]
B
That is an outlier. But I'm happy to deal with it. It's very rare, but, yeah, sometimes there's not enough money in the estate to cover all the commitments of the estate. So there may be your charity, there may be other charities. There's most likely, as we talked about, all the loved ones. There may also be debts. Any lifetime debts have to be paid by the estate. You don't get out of. Your creditors don't just let you go because you've died. The expenses of death, like funeral, cremation, whatever the ritual may be, those expenses get paid by the estate. So again, rare, but sometimes it happens. And then what happens, what would happen is all the beneficiaries would get together and there would be, you know, some kind of an agreement that will all take less because there's not enough for everybody to get everything that was committed. So we'll all take less. Maybe a prorated share. If, if we were getting a quarter, we'll just get a, we'll get a, we'll take maybe a smaller share or knowing that, that that quarter is not going to be what, what might have been anticipated. We work these things out. But again, rare. Rare but great, Great question. I love your outlier question. No problem. No problem.
- [30:38]
A
Okay, last question for me because as this publishes, it's July, folks are likely thinking about their end of year campaign. Or if they're not, you should be thinking about your end of year campaign. My question to you, Tony, is how do we integrate this plan, giving program or campaign with the things that we might already have going on? Be it our annual end of year campaign, be it a major gift program, be it capital campaign. What's the, what's the interstitial tissue there?
- [31:09]
B
Oh, I love that. Interstitial. I Love that. I would say, in a word, just deconflict. You know, there's no best time for this fourth quarter. If you're doing your fourth quarter planning now, you likely are. Don't launch planned giving in the fourth quarter. It's, it's, there's just too much going on for you. Either do it in the fall before the fourth quarter rush or hold it off until January. The way the book is set up, you can start within a week of reading the first three chapters because the first three chapters are steps one, two and three. You like action steps, which I admire.
- [31:42]
A
Yeah, I like it.
- [31:43]
B
Yes, the first three, like I said, the first three chapters are the first three steps. Within a week of reading the first three chapters, you can launch. Launching means you started the conversations that you and I were talking about that you've launched your planned giving. When you start having that first conversation with a loyal, committed donor, you're on your way. That's a launch. You don't need a splashy website, you don't need a big campaign, you don't need a press release, you don't need an event. Just start having conversations with loyal committed donors and you're on your way. That's your plan giving launch. And in terms of timing, I would say just deconflict. Just do it when it's, it's the best time for you.
- [32:19]
A
But yeah, now, from, from a communications perspective though, how do we, or, or do we even mention this plan giving program if we're already sending out all this communication about giving or do you think that we should keep it completely separate?
- [32:31]
B
No, you can include in. I'm a big fan of sidebars because like in 60, 70 words you can say everything you need to say. You don't need a 250 word article about the history of wills and you know the value. It's not necessary in a like simple sidebar in a newsletter, whether it's print or digital, could be an annual report, maybe even a program for an event might be appropriate. But basically the sidebar is we're focused on the long term. You know, you know, you all know how important our work is in the community, that it continue for decades and generations. It's so easy for you to include us in your will. And I like to provide three things. Legal name, tax id, that's the federal tax id, and your office address. With those three things, somebody could take the info and they can go to their attorney and they don't have to come to you and ask for more information. You know, you'd like to know, but some folks are just never going to tell you. They're just going to go to their advisor or they're going to go online maybe and do their will there. But with those three bits of info, legal name, tax ID and office address, they can put you in in their will easily. So, yeah, those are broader communications. Absolutely. That's reaching everybody.
- [33:41]
A
Great. And you know, as you were talking, I was actually thinking about how easy would it be if you have a donation page and you just included like, by the way, here's some information if you're interested in plan giving. Right. Let's make it easy to do business. Have it all done.
- [33:55]
B
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The only little tweak I would say, if you're interested in long term gifts to us, this planned giving is a little bit of an insider baseball, you know, insider, insider fundraising term. I would say check here or click here for long term giving options and then that would be. That might be one page on a. You don't need a splashy plan giving website either. Website certainly don't need a site. One page can do it. The importance of. The importance of long term giving. Here's our legal name, tax ID and office address. Maybe a contact person, maybe a testimonial, pull quote, picture of a couple or a donor. And that's it. That's your plan giving page. That's all you need.
- [34:33]
A
Tony, I so appreciate that you make it simple because it does seem very daunting. And I think, because it seems daunting, we put it off when we procrastinate and we say we'll get to it later and we need to have a big page. But I love that you're just saying, let's just start. You get, grab your book, read chapters one through three and let's get it going.
- [34:52]
B
Absolutely. Rhea, you know, take it off instead of doing it someday. You can start on Monday.
- [34:57]
A
Oh, I love that. All right, Tony, is there anything else that we did not discuss that you think are important for folks to know about plan giving?
- [35:04]
B
I just want folks to not be intimidated. It's not, it's not all those nasty, those six nasty myths, the misconceptions in your head, maybe on your board, maybe you've been to fundraising conferences and you went to a planned giving session and it was done by a lawyer and he was talking about, I've done that.
- [35:21]
A
It is so scarce.
- [35:23]
B
Charitable remainder unit trust with net income makeup provisions and section of the Internal Revenue Code. And here's why you want to alert your donors to that. Oh, my God. If I could swear, I would. If I. I swear on my own podcast, but I won't swear on anybody else's.
- [35:38]
A
Oh, you can swear on my podcast, but I, I.
- [35:40]
B
It annoys me the shit out.
- [35:41]
A
Exactly why I'm so freaked out about it, because I think I did go at an AFP conference to one of these things, and this lawyer said all these things and I was like, I, this is. Oh, my God. I cannot.
- [35:53]
B
Yes. I hate those people. I just, I don't hate them. I hate what they're doing to planned giving. It's just not this black box, dense, overwhelming, complicated thing. It's not. It's not simple gifts and wills and the. Put that together with the donors who love your work. Cause they're loyal and committed and then just start having conversations. That's it. That's like steps one, two, and three, please.
- [36:17]
A
I love that. All right. Well, Tony, thank you so much for being on the show with us for demystifying some of this planned giving stuff. We'll make sure to put all of your information in the show notes. And where can people get this book? Because I know it is not published yet, but what do we do if we want to get it in our hot little hands? The second is published.
- [36:34]
B
The wait list is at the. There we go. Not too skilled. I'm not like the weatherman on TV. There you go. It's at dot com. And in September, September 15th is the book launch. Of course, it'll be on Amazon and Barnes and Noble and we'll make sure
- [36:49]
A
to put it in the show notes for folks who are interested. And are you doing a launch party? Because if you do, you should do it up in New York.
- [36:56]
B
We are having a launch party, actually. Yeah, There is one at a friend's office. The Perelman and Perlman law firm. I don't know the address, but the date is going to be October 15th. It's a Thursday. It's a Thursday happy hour. Thursday happy hour. Look up Perlman. P E, R, L, M A N. That's the law firm where it's going to be. Thursday Happy Hour on October 15th of this year. Yeah.
- [37:23]
A
Fantastic. Well, make sure I'm on that guest list. If I'm in town, I'm gonna come.
- [37:27]
B
All right, all right, all right.
- [37:28]
A
Thank you so much, Tony. This has been great. And folks, if you want to know more about Tony and where to get this book when it publishes in September, check out the show notes. Thank you so much.