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- [00:00]
A
What's up rich people? It's me, Haley, aka Mrs. Dow Jones. Money is juicy. That is why I have taken it upon myself to start a new podcast called Financial Tea. Every single week I will break down what is happening in money right now. Plus, I'm going to bring on experts, entrepreneurs and influencers to spill their financial tea. Think of it as your new weekly financial gossip column. Financial Tea is out now wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.
- [00:38]
B
Hello and welcome to Normal Gossip. I'm your host, Rachel Hampton, and in each episode of this podcast we are gonna bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. And as some of you might have guessed from the title of today's episode, today's episode is gonna be a little bit different. I will not be telling a gossip story to a guest for reasons that I will be explaining in just a minute. But I a substantial amount of y' all will probably be tuning out right now. Hopefully we will see you back here for season 10, which will be airing sometime over the summer of 2026 and which will feature some old favorites, some new and phenomenal guests, and as per usual, some unforgettable gossip. All right, here is where I get personal. I don't really think there is a non dramatic way to tell this story, so thank you in advance for sticking around. The weekend after Christmas I had to go to the ER because I was experiencing some symptoms of a stroke. Luckily, as you can maybe tell by the fact that I am recording now and not on like medical leave, I did not have a stroke. But I do want to take a minute to talk about something I learned in the er which is the acronym BE fast. The letters stand for Balance, Eyes, Face, Arms, Speech and Time to get Help. Basically, if you notice symptoms in yourself or someone that include trouble with balance, blurred or double vision, drooping in the face or arm, and trouble with speech, then go to an ER immediately. Time is definitely the essence in the event of a stroke, which those are all symptoms of. What I ended up getting diagnosed with is something called Bell's palsy, which is which is inflammation of the facial nerve whose symptoms can mimic a stroke. Luckily, my case was fairly mild. I didn't really notice until I was brushing my teeth one night and realized that I couldn't spit properly, which was relatively minor but also pretty scary. I couldn't taste on one half of my tongue for a while, which was definitely the strangest symptom, but the one that has lasted the longest, besides just like exhaustion, is a little bit of vertigo because turns out the facial nerve connects to your inner ear and your girl is sensitive to motion sickness at the best of times. You can ask literally anyone who has driven in a car with me basically since New Year's, I have not been able to read or write for longer than a couple of minutes without getting nauseous. Like, this intro is the longest thing I've written since mid December and I had to write it over two days. I'm already feeling leaps and bounds better than I was when I went to the error. I'm back in the gym. I'm seeing a neurologist at the end of January. But the reason I'm giving y' all maybe a little bit too much information about my health is because there was a point when I got back from the mid season break where I really, really thought I could just muscle through this and deliver the final episode of this season as promised. At this point, I think y' all might have gotten a little bit of an inkling that I am just a little bit of a perfectionist and that I hate disappointing people. Once the ER doctors confirmed I didn't have a stroke, what scared me the most was the thought of returning to work and not being able to perform. Which, spoiler alert is exactly what happened luckily. And I keep saying that. But in the aftermath of all this, I actually do feel really lucky and grateful for my family and friends who took care of me, even though I am quite bad at being taken care of. And I feel extremely lucky to work with people who foreground my humanity because they helped me realize that going on like nothing happened. Like the very basics of my job, reading and writing didn't actively make me sick to my stomach. Wasn't fair. It wasn't fair to me, which honestly, I don't really care about. What actually convinced me was realizing that no matter how hard I tried, whatever episode I delivered right now just would not be as good as I would want it to be. It would be fine. Like I'm a professional, but I know y' all are smart enough to notice when the quality of the show isn't up to our usual standards, and it just didn't feel fair to me to pretend like everything was okay, even as it would be very clear to y' all that it wasn't. So instead of the usual episode, we are doing something a little different today since I didn't want to leave y' all with nothing. And quite frankly, because we have contract expectations to fulfill, though, I do want to shout out our partners at Radiotopia for their flexibility at a difficult time. So today I have got a special guest with me here in the virtual studio, a guest that has been an absolute rock as we try to finish out this season under some extraordinary circumstances. That's right. I have somehow convinced my partner and friend and Normal Gossip's lead producer, Ciara Spragley Ricks to join me on MIC today. Sierra, thank you so much for being here.
- [05:56]
A
Thank you for having me. I'm glad to be here to support my friend and chop it up with you today.
- [06:02]
B
I'm so happy you're here, not least because you're kind of always here, so it's nice that everyone else can hear you too, instead of you being the voice in my head.
- [06:13]
A
I like being the voice in your head though.
- [06:15]
B
I like it too. Today Sierra and I are gonna talk a little bit about what the past year has been like for us at the helm of Normal Goss. I know this is a lot of people's comfort show, so I'm gonna warn y' all that we will be talking about what it means for us as two black women to be making this show under the second Trump administration. If today is your no news day, then feel free to skip to the second part of the episode where Ciara and I will be reacting to some gossip morsels sent to us by y' all that neither one of us have heard. So all of that after a short break.
- [07:05]
A
We are currently producing this season while also planning for the next and it's important for me to remain focused. To help keep me on task, I take Moo's Mind Magic THC gummies. It's so smooth and intense in like the best way. It allows me to concentrate while editing our episodes, delivering a nice gentle buzz. Mood.com has created an entire line of functional gummies and flower created for your ideal mood. Made with 100% federally legal THC. Not only that, but they'll deliver them discreetly right to your doorstep and you get 20% off your first order@mood.com, with promo code Gossip. I mean they have cannabis products for literally every everything. Immune support, PMS symptoms, mental clarity. Best of all, not only does MOOZ stand behind everything with an industry leading 100 day satisfaction guarantee, but as I mentioned, listeners get 20% off their first order with cold gossip. So head to moo.com, browse their amazing selection of functional gummies and find the perfect gummy for whatever you are dealing with. And remember to use Promo Code Gossip at checkout to save 20% off your first order.
- [08:16]
B
So I don't know if you girlies know but I have ibs. Yes I am a hot girl with IBS and one thing I learned is that the most stomach friendly bread is actually sourdough. It is one of the things that my nutrition has told me is least likely to make my stomach hurt. And you know who has the best sourdough whole foods? Their 365 brand organic sourdough sandwich bread is legitimately one of my favorite things in the world. Like I have had a lot of bread in my life so I'm a connoisseur so I can tell you that this bread slaps. And their 365 brand has so many other delicious ready to eat salad kits or ready to heat rice and bean blends to pair with protein and make your life easy. Shop all things Wellness at Whole Foods Marketing and we're back. Ciara hello.
- [09:16]
A
Hi.
- [09:17]
B
So officially we announced the transition in December of 2024. So to the audience it has been about a year and some change for us. It's been, I would say about 16 to 18 months since we knew that this was gonna happen. What has surprisingly been one of the more controversial parts of this transition is the way that we talk, which is with the phrase peaceful transition of power. I opened up a little bit in our episode with Jasper about why we keep saying that, because I was honestly a little taken aback by how many people didn't understand why we kept harping on it. But I wanted to hear your thoughts, as someone who understands podcasts and the industry far more than me, about how transitions like this usually go. Maybe some of your fears coming into it. And then I wanted to know how you feel like our peaceful transition of power has gone.
- [10:25]
A
Yeah, I have witnessed these transitions happen frequently within our industry, and it does not happen like this. It doesn't happen as smoothly and as intentional as our transition did happen. I have friends in the industry that I'm really close with that took over shows that was hosted previously by.
- [10:57]
B
Someone.
- [10:57]
A
Who wasn't a person of color. And when they took over that, you know, the new host who was either a black woman or a person of color. The audience response was really harsh. And at the time, the second Trump administration hadn't like we were in election season. And then when the announcement was made, he had already won and he ran on rhetoric that was anti dei. And to be frank, I didn't want us to be seen as DEI hires. I didn't want our work and our resumes questioned in a way that made us feel that we weren't worthy enough to take over the show from Kelsey and Alex. I am very understanding that this was their baby that built and cultivated the audience, and they gave incredible seasons. But they also chose us to be the ones to continue this new chapter. And I was really afraid that in the climate that we were entering into this new chapter, that we would not be received well. And I think the transition has gone as well as it did is because everyone at Defector was very intentional about that not happening to us, and that meant the world to me.
- [12:37]
B
Yeah, I agree. I mean, the reality is that a lot of people, the entire audience, formed a relationship with Kelsey and Alex. I think something. A word that is tossed around a lot is parasocial. But before the advent of radio, which is relatively recent, if you think about it, the only voices that you heard were usually people. You know, like, having someone's voice in your ear is actually a pretty intimate form. So it makes sense that people formed a very strong connection to Kelsey. And I think we both knew when we came in as just fans of other projects that there was gonna be a section of the audience that was just gonna say, you know what? To me, the show is Kelsey, and I'm done. And a lot of those people said, we wish you well. And I appreciate that so much. And that was entirely within, I think, the realm of expectations. But I think something that you just kind of highlighted is the fact that I won't speak for you, though I'm sure you've had a similar experience of maybe not being called, but definitely made to feel like an affirmative action hire or in college, for me, an affirmative action admittance. And I think we both know, both intrinsically and also just sociologically, from a data standpoint, that what we've had to do to get here just entirely negates the idea of it being easier for us. Us to be here because we're black, which is basically what affirmative action hire, or like DEI hire, is getting at, is the idea that the standards are somehow lowered for us to get in, rather than the fact that for us to even get into the room, we've had to overcome things that our white peers couldn't even imagine. And so I think we both shared that fear. And I think that is a huge reason why we kept highlighting that this transition of power was peaceful, because, as you pointed out, so many of those transitions that happened that left black women or people of color just at the mercy of an audience were neglected or just ignored or actively set up to Fail by business partners or editorial partners that didn't care to see those black women succeed and didn't understand that by placing a black woman in a position previously held by someone who wasn't a black woman, you have to proactively manage the expectations of your audience. You have to tell them how to act. And a lot of media organizations don't want to do that. And something I forever appreciate about Kelsey and Alex is that they both were like, our audience is going to follow our lead.
- [16:23]
A
Yes.
- [16:23]
B
And our lead is that we are very happy and this is something that we wanted to happen. And not only are we happy, these are the best people to take over the show. So I think we keep talking about the peaceful part because it's not just about us. It's about the people around us who have ensured that this transition of power was peaceful.
- [16:45]
A
One of the things that I think about, and I remember, and I don't even know if I'm told, Alex, how that made me feel, but one of the first initial conversations that I had with her about coming onto the show and, like, essentially taking over her position as the lead producer, I remember we were meeting. That was one of our very first conversations via Zoom. And she is going over the role and talking with me about this position. And I was like, hey, like, okay, so did you want me, like, you know, you already see my resume and things, but, like, do you want me to do an edit test? Do you need me to do this? Like, I'm naming. Just because, as you mentioned, Rachel, we are used to going above and beyond to prove our worth, that we can do the job, a role that is being presented or offered to us.
- [17:42]
B
And.
- [17:43]
A
And I remember Alex being like, ciara, I've worked with you before because she was a guest on Icymi when you and I were both there. And she was like, I also have listened to countless episodes that you've produced, so an edit test is not going to show me anything different because I already am familiar with your work and your work is good and you should be proud of that and confident in that. And that carried on through our time, like, the transition. And, you know, she's still the supervising producer, so, like, she'll, you know, give notes on different episodes and things of that nature. And she has affirmed my work and allowed me to feel confident enough to not second guess myself when making editorial decisions. And that I really appreciate. And that's how you be intentional and affirm black women in the world.
- [18:42]
B
Right. I think something that we're both kind of pointing out is that our peers and our colleagues have matched our own proactivity.
- [18:50]
A
Yes.
- [18:50]
B
Like they are not necessarily waiting for something bad to happen before they put plans in place. Like they are willing to think through worst case scenarios, which we have for almost everything that's happened this year. And luckily they haven't happened. But. But just having those plans in place I think have made us feel a lot better. And something I want to point out is that they've also been humble enough to admit when they're wrong. I think a lot of white people, I think a lot of non black people are so afraid of being wrong that they end up not listening to the black person in front of them. And no one is born knowing how to do this well and truly. The reality of being a human being is that you're gonna fuck up. You don't come into this world knowing the boundaries of the people around you. And what matters is a not internalizing that fuck up as you being a bad person. Because that's not how fuck ups work. I fuck up doesn't mean that I should go kill myself, you know?
- [20:03]
A
Yeah, no, don't do that, Rachel.
- [20:05]
B
Yeah, but also being able to recover from those fuckups and then carry on and continue to have a good relationship. And so I have been very grateful for the environment that we've worked in over the past 18 months. Even when it's hard. Like there has never been a moment where I've been like, what I'm experiencing here wouldn't be happening at another company and worse, you know?
- [20:35]
A
Right.
- [20:37]
B
I guess we've kind of been dancing around this, talking about this, sort of referencing this. But we are recording this episode towards the end of January, which means that for the past few weeks we have all been trying to process the news and images coming out of Minneapolis, where people are being hunted and assaulted by masked agents of the state. The editor of our show, Justin Ellis, is from Minneapolis and is also a black man. Actually, at this point, the majority of the core production staff of Normal Gossip is black. And something I have struggled to contend with this year is making this show which is intentionally, entirely separate from the news as the country descends into fascism.
- [21:33]
A
Yes, it's incredibly hard because we are human beings, right? We have feelings, we have emotions, we have reactions. And we are somehow expected, just as citizens in this country, to operate as business as usual. So seeing these flood of images on our timeline, reading the news and like dealing with and contending with the country's descent into fascism, but also do our jobs, it's really Hard to try to divorce yourself from that reality because we're not supposed to. Like, we're human beings, right? However, I also think about when we were on tour and this was one of the many stops. I don't remember which stop it was. And I remember we were doing the Meet and Creek after the show. This woman came up to us and of course, like, you know, we took our pictures and I remember her pulling us to the side and it was like, I love your show. I listen on my walks and when I take a break from work, I'm able to listen to it and, like, escape for a moment. And that is what is helping me because, like, all of us, we have something that we escape to, right? May it be a TV show that we're binge watching. Rachel was just talking about Traders in one of our meetings recently, and we, Rachel and I texted on the side watching his and hers on Netflix. And, like, we all have something to try to escape to. So when working on our show, I like, go back to that woman's comment and I'm like, okay, we are creating that for her. And although my job isn't on the front lines fighting fascism or any of those things, I am providing a safe space and an escape for our listeners to be like, okay, because our listeners, they're smart, they're tuned into the news, they are on it. And this moment of rest that we give to our listeners, they're able to do that, refuel themselves, and then go back and be engaged citizens. So that's the way I look at our work as we're creating through this shit, this shitstorm. Because I'm like, I don't even know how to articulate fully what the fuck we're experiencing.
- [24:24]
B
No, it's impossible. It is impossible to articulate what is happening. Not least because quite frankly, we don't even fully know what is happening. And that is the point.
- [24:33]
A
No, we don't.
- [24:35]
B
My Comfort Escape content is Trixie Mattel videos. Like, I love Trixie Mattel. When I can't sleep, I just put on the I Like to Watch series with Katya and Trixie where they react to Netflix shows. So I have seen almost every episode too many times. So that is my comfort content. And in one of her videos, Trixie was saying that she knew that a lot of people watched her content as a sort of reprieve and how she took that responsibility seriously. Because I think especially, especially as we become more familiar with the terrible ways that Hollywood works, it is hard to really empathize with entertainers But I think something I started struggling with pretty early on was trying to maintain the integrity of this space as it was built, which is as a reprieve and not necessarily as a timely show, not responding to the news cycle. I don't want to say that it's apolitical, because I don't think that it is. I don't think anything is apolitical. I definitely don't think gossip is apolitical. And quite honestly, if you listen to the show closely, you can definitely figure out our politics.
- [26:08]
A
Yeah.
- [26:10]
B
So I don't want to say it's apolitical, but it's not engaging in the news cycle, and I wanted to maintain that. But what that meant for me as the person writing the show and scripting the show, is I couldn't engage with the news cycle because it felt impossible for me to switch from reading about the genocide in Gaza to writing a joke. Quite frankly, it felt impossible to go from reading about federal employees, employees being laid off from their dream jobs, and the ways that's gonna impact everything from our food production to the weather service, to wanting to he, he, ha ha. About a Euro trip gone wrong. And it made me feel like there's no way both of these things can matter. There is no world in which both of these things can matter. And that's not true. But I found that I couldn't care about the stakes in our stories because everything around us had such high stakes, and we intentionally choose gossip as low stakes. And I was having a really hard time balancing that. And I remember going to Kelsey early on and being like, how did you do this? And she was like, well, we've never done the show in a Trump administration. And I. I can't say that that's not gonna impact what's happening here, because obviously, bad things happen under every president. And the Biden presidency had its issues, as most do, but the constant inundation of news that happens under Trump administration is different, and that is intentional. And she was like, I've never made the show under those circumstances. But she said, you're gonna have to not be online. When you're in production for the show. You have to pick a specific time to read the news. Not every day. And that is those are your news hours. And then you're not online because it is not. The human brain just cannot take in the amount of news we're seeing online in general. But having to take that in and then also kind of inhabit the world of normal gossip is just too much for one girl to handle. And so that means that for a lot of the production, I'm not super online. And it's both great for my mental health and also makes me feel bad because I'll be in conversations with my friends and they'll be talking about these things that are happening. And I'm like, I haven't read the news in three days, which shouldn't actually be that much time. But right now, three days is a lot.
- [29:16]
A
It's a lot, babes.
- [29:18]
B
It's a lot. It's definitely a balance, I think, that I'm still finding between making this show and caring about the integrity of this show. Because if I don't care about the stories, then why would you guys care about the stories? And why would the guests care about the stories? And so I have to care. It is my job to care about these stories. And so creating the conditions under which I, as a black woman, can care about these stories while the world is falling down around me is definitely something that I'm still finding.
- [29:51]
A
I think it's, like, indicative of our culture too, specifically black culture. Even when we are under the worst of circumstances, we find a way to laugh. And I mean, again, it's been very hard for me since our last show to be, like, completely offline, because that was our job, to be online. And I have changed the way in which I've interacted with the Internet since then. But even online, as we speak, there's a train going around. If I was an Al, how would you say, who?
- [30:36]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Jamaican who or the who from Baltimore?
- [30:43]
A
There's a Obama who.
- [30:45]
B
There's.
- [30:45]
A
Yeah, a Madea who? There's a lot of who's out there. Okay. But it's in those moments that I'm reminded that, like, we are able to find something to just laugh about and just have fun. And so as I go into production of the show, as I go into editing, as we go into recordings, I'm reminded of my late grandmother. Just, girl, you just gotta laugh.
- [31:13]
B
Yeah.
- [31:14]
A
And we have to laugh to keep from crying at times. And just to provide laughter and joy to our listeners helps keep me going through these.
- [31:25]
C
Very.
- [31:28]
A
Difficult, to say the least, but deranged at times, and I'm happy to be a part of that for other people.
- [31:38]
B
That is actually a perfect transition into the last question I had for this little section, which I wanted to end on a slightly lighter note, which is. I mean, besides the Baltimore out, what is giving you hope right now? Because I think as black women, both of us kind of have an understanding that hope is a practice.
- [32:05]
A
Yes.
- [32:05]
B
And that what our enemies want, because, yes, they are enemies. And I do not feel like we should be shy about saying that. What they want is for us to lose hope and to give in to what's happening around us and to forget that other people are worth fighting for.
- [32:25]
A
Yes.
- [32:26]
B
So what are you doing to remember that?
- [32:31]
A
I will say I'm encouraged by seeing others lean in and tap into community.
- [32:37]
B
That's exactly what I was gonna say. Yeah. What's happening in Minneapolis?
- [32:40]
A
Oh, my gosh.
- [32:42]
B
I know. It's so what's happening with ICE in Minneapolis is so, like, horrific. But the community response to it is truly like, it's giving me life.
- [32:57]
A
Yes.
- [32:58]
B
In the non hyperbolic sense. You know, like, it is actually giving me life in that people are fighting for their neighbors. And I think something that both of us maybe felt after spending so long covering the Internet is that people have forgotten that there are other people on the side of the screen. And seeing the way people in Minneapolis are rallying and creating following around ICE cars and honking, like, the way people are showing up even as they're being terrorized is so brave and so just.
- [33:37]
A
It's beautiful to see.
- [33:39]
B
It is. It is.
- [33:41]
A
That gives me hope that we hear this statement a lot that our country is so divided and it is. Yeah, it is. Like, don't be mistaken.
- [33:50]
B
But when was it not? When was it ever not?
- [33:51]
A
When was it not divided?
- [33:53]
B
The closest this country came to falling apart was about the country splitting in half over the question of, like, who is a human and who is it?
- [34:01]
A
But to see people as this country has been, who has always been seeing people just rally for one another and comfort and support one another and like, oh, this is where ICE is today, y'.
- [34:16]
B
All.
- [34:17]
A
Do you want me to go get your groceries? You want me go do this for you? Like, that gives me hope. And it gives me hope that although there are people who may have thought differently in the past and accepted excuse this inhumane behavior, they are waking up, I guess, and they are realizing that the way in which they were moving before was detrimental to society. And they are taking the time to educate themselves and to become proactive in rectifying the harm that has been caused by their actions. Yeah, I'm seeing it more and more. I am hopeful that this will.
- [35:12]
B
Do.
- [35:13]
A
What it has in New York.
- [35:15]
B
Hell, yeah. That's my mayor, the first politician I've ever voted for. That's a lie. I voted for Bernie Sanders in the primary in 2016, and I was happy about that. But other than that, every time I've cast my vote, I've been like, God.
- [35:29]
A
And I'm not even a New Yorker. My ass is in Virginia. But I was happy for that because I feel like there is something brewing and I'm very, very hopeful that this sentiment spreads and we are able to make significant change and move away from this individualistic and capitalist society. That's my hope, girl. That's all I got right now.
- [35:59]
B
I mean, that's huge. I was literally just thinking, it is a tragedy, the horrific things that have had to happen for this to become true. But I remember in I'm gonna get the year wrong because time is a flat circle, girl. But before, I think the 2020 election, there were many activists calling to abolish ICE.
- [36:25]
A
Yes.
- [36:26]
B
And so many of their fellow leftists, their fellow liberals said, that's impossible. Like, don't say that you're gonna lose us votes. Like, we can't push that far. I remember when I was in College in 2016, we had a BDS campaign to get the school to divest from Israel. And that was so rancorous. I think it's hard for people who are maybe Gen Z or younger than the age of 25 to understand just how in lockstep the majority of America, the world, Western society was on Israel until very recently. Despite the horrific crimes that were committed before the last few years and the large public sentiment change against Israel, against ice in the past few years, some terrible things have had to happen. Yes. Like unimaginable tragedies have had to happen and they shouldn't have because people have been calling for this for years. But I just remember people saying that it would be an impossibility that we would ever get to a point where a large majority of people would support abolishing ICE or get to a point where a large majority of people support not sending billions of dollars of weapons to Israel while people freeze on the street in America. You know, and we've gotten there. Yeah, we have gotten there. And so I'm just thinking of the things that people say right now that are impossible, that will not seem impossible in a few years. Hopefully horrific things don't have to happen for those things to come into place. But I think that is what is giving me hope right now, is I remember when people were getting literally laughed out of leftist circles for saying we should center abolishing ice. Right. And that's not true anymore. And that's like a huge shift.
- [38:27]
A
It's a huge shift and gives me hope that, like, when my niece is older, this is not something that feels impossible to do but is within, like, reach. Like an election within reach. Not so far off. And my hope is that nothing else horrendous happens. I'm not gonna comment further on whether I believe that hope will come to fruition.
- [38:57]
B
Listen, hope springs eternals, you know, Gotta have some. Gotta have some achievable goals and some reach goals, you know?
- [39:06]
A
Yeah.
- [39:07]
B
Reach for the sky. Plan to land among. I don't know what the rest of the stars. I don't fucking know.
- [39:13]
A
Reach for the moon. Landing amongst the stars.
- [39:15]
B
There you go. Exactly. Period, babe. But yes, exactly, exactly. I think we are landing on the same place, which I think happens so often, you guys would not believe. But also I think means that it is time for a short break.
- [39:34]
A
Yes.
- [39:34]
B
After which we will be back with some gossip morsels that neither Sierra or I have heard. Our incredible producer J. Toviera has. Who do you really kept it down over the past month like it is. It's been. It's been a struggle. So thank you, Jay.
- [39:52]
A
Thank you. We love you.
- [39:54]
B
And thank you, Sierra, and thank you to all of y'. All. And we'll be right back. One of the things I feel guiltiest about is food waste because I don't like leftovers. To be completely honest, I can't eat anything for longer than three days without getting bored. And sometimes I'm a little ambitious in the grocery store and I think that I'm gonna cook a recipe and then work gets crazy and then I just see that bell pepper so slowly decomposing in the back of my fridge and I feel really bad about it. That's why I am so excited to be partnering with mill. Mill is the odorless, effortless, fully automated food recycler. You can put in truly almost anything. Potato pills, avocado pits, chicken bones, even dairy. And then while you sleep, mill just quietly transforms those scraps into nutrient rich, shelf stable grounds. I have been obsessed with my mill since I got it. It is really sleek, so it fits right into my home. But also, I don't think I realized how much of my garbage was just food waste and not even food waste from not eating the food that I bought. I'm talking about, you know, a pomelo peel or eggshells Mill makes it easy to do something good for the planet without the mess or stress. Try mill risk free for 90 days and get $75 off@mil.com gossip code, gossip at checkout. That's $75 off@mil.com Gossip and use code Gossip M I L L.com Gossip and.
- [41:55]
A
Use code Gossip over these past few months, I've been hard at work producing this show while also trying to improve my quality of sleep. Sleep does so much for our skin and well being, but if we're being honest, at least for me, it can be kind of hard to unwind at night. In addition to a hot shower right before bed, I've added osea's dream collection to my nighttime routine. Let me tell you, it's been a game changer. Their newest product, the Dream Bioretinol Body Serum, is probably my favorite. It's a full body restorative treatment that visibly de stresses the skin with a holistic blend of bioretinol, red seaweed, magnesium and lavender. It smells so good while promoting a sense of serenity for a restful night and delivering softer, smoother, more radiant skin by morning. Helping me to achieve my sleep goal and improving my skin. I'll say that's a win win. Give your skin at rest with clean, clinically tested skin care from osea and right now we have a special discount just for our listeners. Get 10% off your first order sitewide with code gossip@oseamalibu.com Listen it's already been.
- [43:12]
B
A hard year and we're only one month into it. We all have our vices, but if this year you are trying to quit or cut back on nicotine, then consider trying Jones Science backed and FDA approved nicotine mints. With Jones Nicotine Mints, there's no smoke, no pouch, no vapor or hidden chemicals. Just a discreet that doubles your chances of quitting and works as a healthier nicotine alternative. Plus, they have a personalized step down plan that's proven to lower your nicotine intake so Jones makes it easy to follow through on quitting. When nicotine cravings hit you. Log onto the Jones app and connect with their community of over 60,000 quitters who are sharing their own setbacks and quitting journeys. It's free and it actually gives you the support you need to get through tough days. If your New Year's resolution is to quit or even just to use nicotine in a healthier way, check out Quit with Jones. Visit quitwithjones.comgossip to take the free quiz and use Code gossip to get 15% off your personalized quitting journey, that's quitwithjones.com gossip. Taking back control starts now. Thanks to Quit With Jones for sponsoring this episode. Just a heads up, the mints contain Nicotine, which is an addictive chemical. Jones is FDA approved and available for those that are 18 and older.
- [44:32]
C
This show is supported by Odoo. When you buy business software from lots of vendors, the costs add up and it gets complicated and confusing. Odoo solves this. It's a single company that sells a suite of enterprise apps that handles everything from accounting to inventory to sales. Odoo is all connected on a single platform in a simple and affordable way. You can save money without missing out on the features you need. Check out odoo@odoo.com that's o d o o.com.
- [45:19]
B
And we're back and we've got some gossip morsels. Are you ready? Ciara, this is your first time being in the audience seat?
- [45:31]
A
Yeah, I hate it. You know, I'm too much a control freak for this shit. I wanna know.
- [45:44]
B
Listen, I get it. But also there's nothing better than being a little bit shocked, a little bit gagged, a little bit gooped, you know. So let's see it.
- [45:56]
D
Hello, this is Jasper Defectors business guy. So I went to business school in the mid 2010s. Not to generalize too much, but many people at top MBA programs think of business school primarily as like networking opportunities or finishing school or even just an extended vacation from work. And from that mindset comes a really heavy emphasis on travel. And there is a subset of MBA students who are trying to travel internationally as often as possible. And there was someone I went to business school with, let's call him Michael, who seemed to be just jetting off somewhere new every other weekend. So the academic calendar for our school before Thanksgiving did have classes on Monday and Tuesday, but many people just skipped those days of class so they could do some extra travel before going home for Thanksgiving. Now the Monday, that Monday I went to school, probably a quarter of my classmates were not there. That was not surprising at all. What was surprising was that during class, a detective with the local police department came in looking for Michael. Michael's parents had been trying to reach him for several days, but he was not picking up his phone. So they called the police who went to Michael's apartment building and could not find him. So they sent a detective to school to ask around. And it did not take long for our classmates to realize what had happened, which is, Michael was in Cuba. So I went to business school in the exact couple years where there was a thawing in US Cuba relations so it was easier to do tourism there. And a big group of our classmates planned a trip to Cuba. And 10 years ago, maybe still you couldn't just show up to Cuba and expect your phone with your Verizon wireless plan to work. So people were basically off the grid for a week. And of course this was well known enough, so surely most people just told their loved ones where they were going. Maybe they left a hotel landline number for emergencies. Except for Michael. Michael did not tell his parents he was going to be unreachable for a whole week. And we later found out the reason for that is Michael had been traveling all over the world without ever telling his parents he was taking trips because he was borrowing money from them to go back to grad school. And he didn't want them to think he was being frivolous with his time and their money, which no comment from me. So this started a long game of telephone, literal telephone, because Michael's parents insisted on getting in touch with Michael to confirm that he was safe and presumably yell at him a lot. So lots of people had to mobilize to try to get in touch with like the parents or siblings of other people who had gone on this trip to Cuba, but who had the itinerary and you had a cold hotel. So this all ended up being a tough look for a, I don't know, like a 28 year old man who considered himself a very cosmopolitan person of the world. Right? But his friend's parents had to be contacted so that his own parents could yell at him. And it all, it all ended up being fine. Michael was safe. I would say he did travel noticeably less for the remaining time in school. So I think if there's anyone listening who's applying to get an MBA right now, just remember this story. And if you end up in a similar situation, just tell your parents you're going on a fucking camping trip nearby, right? There can be other reasons why you wouldn't answer your phone. Just get ahead of it.
- [49:23]
B
So true. It is just like Jasper to give actionable advice at the end of his gossip story. Um, I need to start from the beginning, which is realizing that people go to grad school for vacation. I'm sorry, listen, that's a, that's another.
- [49:41]
A
Tax bracket that I have not touched.
- [49:43]
B
No, literally, I am. What do you mean you go to grad school and you spend. How do you. Where are you getting the money to travel internationally? This happened. I. Oh God, I hate saying this. Cause it's the most pretentious sentence in the world. I studied abroad in Paris when I was in college.
- [50:01]
A
Ooh wee.
- [50:04]
B
I loved it. Okay. Paris is incredible. Sue me, but so many of my classmates would travel. And again, traveling in Europe is different. Traveling from America to Europe. Traveling in Europe is so cheap. Not cheap enough that me and 19 was traveling every weekend the way some of my classmates were. Also, I was like, we're in Paris. We have four months in Paris. Right? Like, why are you going to Germany every weekend? Like, you're not getting into fucking Berghein, like. Or however the fuck you pronounce. So that's a B. It is so funny to consider yourself a man of the world and then have your parents be calling every single person you know, blowing up your spot. Because this is exactly what my parents would do. And I know that. I know that you're a mom too. Your mom.
- [50:56]
A
The way that I was thinking through this, if I was on the phone with the cops or friends, I'd be like, can y'.
- [51:03]
B
All.
- [51:03]
A
Can I just stay with y' all.
- [51:04]
B
For like a hot minute, literally?
- [51:07]
A
No, I'm like, I don't wanna go.
- [51:08]
B
Back to the limits of having. Not only to have the police come up to my school, I would be like, actually, I'm gonna need a police escort back home. And again, acab. But I'm gonna need a police escort back to the United States. Cause my mother's gonna murder me when she sees I'm alive.
- [51:25]
A
Yeah. And I need you to stay for a considerable amount of time. Because she'd be glad, don't get me wrong. She'd be glad that I'm staying.
- [51:33]
B
No, exactly.
- [51:35]
A
But then she'd be like. And you couldn't let me know? Like, no, I don't need that type of smoke in my life. So.
- [51:41]
B
No, literally, my mother made me watch Taken before I studied abroad in Paris. Just to let you know the kind of woman my mother is. I love her and I'm turning into her. But she made me watch Taken Rachel before I went to Paris. And I was like, what? What do you. This is not a documentary.
- [52:04]
A
It would have been like the drama. Ma', am, if you.
- [52:07]
B
Anyway, so that. Michael, that's crazy. All of this mess is preventable in a way that is so 28 year old boy coded. It's like they get a little bit close to 30 and they're like, I've got it all figured out. And it's like, you're dumb.
- [52:32]
A
He's like, look, I'm grown. Grown. I get to go on this trip.
- [52:36]
B
Exactly. Are my parents paying my way? Yes. Like, listen, I don't want them to think I'm being irresponsible no, you were.
- [52:44]
A
Like, but you are.
- [52:46]
B
Well. And then he disappeared in Cuba. Like, you don't want your parents to think you were. Okay, this is the male brain. I don't want my parents to think that I'm being irresponsible with their money. So I'm gonna go to Cuba. And not so that they have to send a police escort and spend how many man hours to track me down? Which probably costs money. Definitely time. And time is money. Sure. They teach you that in your MBA program.
- [53:08]
A
At least make it sound like that you're going on there on assignment for a way.
- [53:12]
B
Exactly.
- [53:13]
A
You know, some real world experience in the business realm, doing international business relations, something might do.
- [53:25]
B
In the business realm.
- [53:27]
A
I'm gonna need you to think it through. Okay, babe?
- [53:29]
B
No. Use some of that education to figure out your parents. Manage your parents.
- [53:34]
A
Yes.
- [53:36]
B
I love this. I thought this was gonna go a different way. When Jasper was like, many people use an MBA program as a vacation. I was gonna say, many people use the MBA program to find a husband. That's what I know about MBA programs. But that's a different gossip story. What's the next morsel?
- [53:57]
E
Hi. Okay. So when I was around, I must have been age 7 or 8. My dad took me to the local, you know, everything store. And I really wanted to go to the toy section. And I kept pulling my dad's arm. He said, you know, if you keep pulling my arm, you're gonna pull it right off. And I did. I pulled my dad's arm off. And I lost my shit. I started sobbing. I lied down on the floor. You know, I was in console. And I remember thinking, I've ruined my dad's life. I have pulled my dad's arm off. Like, I forever altered his timeline. Come to find out, he was wearing a. One of those Halloween arms that people put out their trunks. He had one stuffed up his sleeve. So kind of a treasure memory. Okay, bye.
- [55:09]
A
Bye. I'm crying.
- [55:14]
B
Oh, my God. Okay. I just want to shout out to our caller for their remarkable level of emotional stability, composure. The way they told this story of just like. This is a treasured family memory. I was crying. I thought I ruined my death. Like, this would be like my villain origin. Like, this would be the moment in my life where I turned evil.
- [55:45]
A
Because I don't trust anyone.
- [55:48]
B
No, my trust issues after this would be crazy. Like, can you imagine being in the everything store looking at the toy section and then your dad.
- [56:03]
A
See, this is what I would imagine. Because, you know, the running joke on Social media is like, millennials are the new adults. So this is something I would imagine us doing, right? Like.
- [56:17]
B
Yeah, yeah. Something scarring and traumatic. Yeah, this would definitely end up in a TikTok right now. That is it. Your dad is diabolical and also funny, and I want to hear this can't have been the only. This can't have been the only prank you pulled like this over the course of your life. I need to know more.
- [56:36]
A
Can dad send a voice note? Can dad send a voice note and tell this from his perspective? Cause I'm so.
- [56:43]
B
Also, I just wanna. I guess maybe. Did he figure this prank out in the store? Did he plan this when he went in?
- [56:53]
A
Or were like, you always tugging on him a little too much? Not trying to make you. You as the victim, the villain.
- [57:00]
B
You're a 7, 8 year old. You shouldn't be pulling on your. It means you're staying close to them. Like, good job, seven, eight year old you. Right? But, like, when. When did this idea enter your dad's head?
- [57:09]
A
Was he trying to teach you boundaries? Like, I need to understand dad.
- [57:13]
B
Also, did he take you to get ice cream afterwards? Cause I feel like you deserve that ice cream.
- [57:18]
A
Like, I deserve ice cream days. All right? A month of ice cream. Because, like, I thought I, like, ruined my dad's life.
- [57:25]
B
Like, your dad's a hoot and a holler.
- [57:28]
A
No, but really, can you please call her? Can you just have your dad record a voicemail? Like, see, this is. I can't be in the audience. Like, power to our audience. Because I'm like, no, I need updates.
- [57:43]
B
And you're so right. Y' all are so brave for not knowing the whole story sometimes. I really do appreciate that. Okay, last gossip.
- [57:54]
C
Let's journey back to the year of our Lord 2012.
- [57:57]
B
Oh, God.
- [58:00]
C
There's no Tinder. There's no hinge. My co workers, like, you gotta get out there. She takes it upon herself to create me a plenty of fish profile, which if you're old, you know. You know, And I read the profile, and it's a thousand percent not myself. It says things like, I like to hike and go to the gym, and I eat healthy. None of these things are true. So I'm finally like, there's. If there's gonna be a profile circulating with my picture on it, it. I might as well, like, make it myself. I don't take any of this seriously. So I'm just, like, free typing on the thing like a crazy person. And I'm like, if they don't, like it, then they don't like me. And if they don't, then they don't fast forward. I go on three terrible dates, all of which could be like their own separate movie. And I'm like, they're all serial killers. I will never go on another date from this God forsaken thing again. I'm gonna delete this. But there was one guy I had messaged and I thought he was like really hot and I was like, let me just see if he had messaged me back by any chance. Well, he had messaged me that morning and was like, so sorry. I was on tour with my band, but I would love to meet up and like talk. So I messaged him and I'm like, this has been crazy. I'm gonna delete this. But if you want to talk, like, here's my number.
- [59:18]
A
Text.
- [59:19]
C
He texted me back. So we make plans to meet up at a Starbucks, as you do. And we go on our first date date, and he's amazing and I'm in love with him and we own a second date and I'm in actual love with him and it's amazing. Like not actual love, but you know what I mean. So we start hanging out and I go to his apartment and for a guy, it is the cleanest apartment I've ever been in. He lives with his dad, so we're dating for a while and I'm finally going to sleep over and you know, wink, wink. So I sleep over and everything and he's great and I fall asleep thinking this was like the best night. And I wake up in the morning and something is amiss. I got my period a week early. In this man's bed on the lightest color of sheets white possible. I need to die. I need to move to another country. I need to fake my death, change my name. I need to die.
- [60:14]
A
I panic.
- [60:15]
C
I refuse to move. He wakes up and he's like, oh my God, you're amazing. Everything is amazing. You're perfect. Lalala. And I am still dying and not moving. And at this time in history, those like reddish purplish vitamin waters are everywhere and everyone's drinking them. They're like the iPhone of drinks. Like everybody has them. And I don't know the flavor. I think it was like dragon fruit or something. And I'm formulating a plan. I tell him that I'm feeling a little hungover. Can you please get me the vitamin water? And he does and he's like handing it to me, the vitamin water. And he stops and he's Like, I don't really eat or drink in my room. So, like, please don't spill it. I'm like, he's gonna heat me, but I have no options. This is it. Luckily, as he's handing me the drink, he's like, there's a really great breakfast place across the street, and I'm gonna get these breakfast sandwiches when I'm hungover, and I'm gonna go get us some because there's nothing to eat here anyway. And maybe. Maybe if you eat, you'll, like, feel better. And I'm like, oh, my God, thank you so much. I'm just gonna lay here and sip on this vitamin water, like, very carefully while you're gone. The minute the millisecond, that door closes, I take that vitamin water and I dump it all over the bed and these sheets. And I feel like it's important to note that his dad was away, obviously, because, like, I would never hook up with him in the apartment while his dad was there, by the way. Anyway, I go to the bathroom. I fix myself. I strip the entire bed. I fix the laundry room. I scrub the sheets. I put the laundry up in record speed before this man comes back. He walks in his room, and I'm crying, not because I'm a great actress, but because I feel terrible. He looks like, oh, my God. What happened? And I was like, I'm so sorry. I know you told me to be careful, and I really didn't feel well, and I thought I was gonna throw up, and I spilled the vitamin water everywhere, and I feel so bad about it. And I scrubbed the sheets, and they are in the wash right now. And I'm so sorry. I didn't want to go through all your stuff. So I didn't look to see if you had any more sheets to remake the bed. But if you do, I will totally remake the bed. And I am so sorry.
- [62:24]
B
And I'm leaving.
- [62:26]
C
And he's, like, really pissed and unhappy, and he's, like, holding it together. You could tell. And he's like, it's all right. Accidents happen. Yeah, you didn't feel good. That was so nice. You didn't have to wash the sheets. I would have done it. So then I tried to joke around. I'm like, well, we needed to wash the sheets anyway. Am I right? I distract him, and I'm really apologetic, and I don't leave, and we eat our egg sandwiches, and I'm really guilty. But we fast forward to the next year. We move in together. Six months later, we get a dog In 2015, we get engaged. In 2017, we get married. Married. Now it's 2020, and it's Covid, and we're looking at houses, but it's 2020, and it's Covid, so we don't get a house till 2023, at which point I'm pregnant with our first order. And in May, I go in for my induction, and it takes forever because the baby's overdue and she's not coming, and we're really bored. So I'm like, is there anything you never told me? Like, this whole time that we've been together, you were, like, afraid to tell me or a funny story or something like you lied about.
- [63:27]
A
And he.
- [63:28]
C
He's like, no, not really. You know, I'm sure just, like, the normal things, like, I didn't like your haircut or I told you I did or something. So I tell him the story, and I'm like, I never told you this, and it's really funny, actually. And I tell him the whole story, and he looks at me, and he's like, I knew something. I knew it. He's like this. I told her not to spill the drink, and I was nice about it. And he's like, why would you just. Just have never told me this whole time? And I was like, I don't know. Just like, in the beginning, I thought you were gonna, like, break up with me or something, and I was embarrassed and then just spiraled, and I just, like, never told you. And he's like, I am a mature adult male. If you can have sex with somebody, you can deal with the fact that they have a period. And if guys can't be immature enough to deal with a period, then they shouldn't be sleeping with women. And. And he couldn't be mad anymore because I pushed out our baby. And now it's 2025, and we just had our second daughter.
- [64:29]
A
So.
- [64:29]
C
People of the world, lie.
- [64:31]
B
Yes.
- [64:32]
C
Lie with everything you have, and you just might get a happy ending.
- [64:39]
B
Okay? I'm not gonna lie. I was like, there's no way this can be true. Because literally, at the beginning of the voicemail, I heard baby in the background.
- [64:46]
A
Same.
- [64:46]
B
And I was like, oh, my God. Baby in the background. That's so cute. I keep. I keep saying this on the subscriber episodes, but I literally love when you guys send us voice memos and I can hear what's going on in the background. It makes me feel like I'm like, right there. No, exactly. I'm like, I'll hear the little Turn, signal. Come on. And I'm like, that's right, you signal, pop off, girl. So I heard. I heard the baby. And I was like, wouldn't it be so crazy if this guy that she's talking about is the father of her child? And I'm like, well, that can't happen, because that would be too good. And it was true.
- [65:20]
A
Let me tell you. Plenty of Fish. This is the second success story that I know of from Plenty of Fish. And I can't go too much in detail because friend of a friend situation, but they are married and have a child too.
- [65:40]
B
Okay. I think I will say I think Plenty of fish in 2012, as with most dating apps, is different from Plenty of fish in 2026. But also, I've been on a dating app. What's the opposite of a binge fast for I think a year at this point. Never felt better, let me tell you. So I don't know what any of the apps look like right now, and that feels so good for my brain, but I'm so happy for you, girl. You found your man on Plenty of Fish. I love how quickly you thought. I love how quickly the listener thought, okay, I need a red vitamin water.
- [66:19]
A
Okay. And it was. I know which one it was. It was the blueberry pomegranate. Because I love the blueberry pomegranate. I used to. I mean, I fucked with the dragon fruit, too, and it doesn't really have a taste to it, but that blueberry pomegranate looked like it could be blood. Cause I know. Cause I spilled that shit on my, like, white dress one time, and I was mad. So when she said it, I was like, I know which one you're talking about, babe.
- [66:41]
B
Oh, my God. Okay. Wow. Again, such quick thinking on the caller's part. I do have a question, which is, did it not get into the mattress?
- [66:53]
A
Oh, I was thinking the same thing. Unless it was just like, she caught it in time. That.
- [66:58]
B
Yeah. Or maybe there was a mattress protector.
- [67:01]
A
Maybe she's one of God's favorite and is a light flow girl.
- [67:05]
B
I don't know that.
- [67:06]
A
I don't know.
- [67:07]
B
We're really getting personal on this podc. I was like, wait a minute, I forgot we weren't just on the phone. Okay, okay, okay. So you get your little vitamin water, you spill it, you put it in the wash. I'm not gonna lie. When you said that he was very obviously pissed. I was a little bit just like, fuck this, man. But then I remembered that people are allowed to have emotions, and I Would also maybe be pissed if I told someone to be careful in my white sheets and then they spilled it all over. And importantly, he looked pissed, but then said, it's okay.
- [67:45]
A
Yes.
- [67:46]
B
Which is, I think, the important part of the story. Yes, the important. The turning point where I was like, I'm on this man's side.
- [67:54]
A
That emotional regulation happening.
- [67:56]
B
Exactly. I was on his side when he got the vitamin water and then said, I'm gonna go get us some breakfast sandwiches. I love this story so much. I love that the caller's takeaway from this is to lie. Yeah. I love also that you started a little bit of drama while you were getting induced for your baby, which is the point at which I don't think a man can ever say anything to you that is not like, you're so great. I never, literally never wanna be pregnant. But I do think it's really funny to use that opportunity to be like, I'm about to do something that you physically cannot and that you know is gonna suck and that you can't be mad at me. You can't be mad at me. So what? Have you hid anything from me? And she probably knows this man well enough to know that he doesn't. And then she's like, okay, well, I have the story for you.
- [68:52]
A
She's like, let me just create some chaos.
- [68:55]
B
No, exactly. She was like, I'm bored. Not enough is happening.
- [68:59]
A
The contractions haven't really settled in yet, so let me just tell you.
- [69:03]
B
And then she said, all right, time to pop out the baby. Like, I wonder if he even remembers that she told him the story. Because, like, I don't know how much I remember the conversations I had after, like, my baby got popped out.
- [69:16]
A
You know, honestly, she's the real mvp.
- [69:19]
B
I love her. No, literally, I think I said this halfway through the voice memo. I was like, I fuck heavy with this girl. Like, she's an icon. She's a vibe. I love it. I'm obsessed.
- [69:30]
A
So from the morsels today, we have learned to let people know that you are going somewhere just in case, you know, you don't want police teams to come searching for you. To respect and honor people boundaries so that way they don't have to teach you a very diabolical lesson and to lie.
- [69:54]
B
Wow. Those are definitely the main lessons that we need to take from today. Sierra, thank you so much for coming on mic with me. I know it is not necessarily your favorite thing, but you're so great at it, and it's so fun having you here. And it's if any of y' all say anything but nice things to my girl, I'm gonna come to your home.
- [70:23]
A
Rachel, no.
- [70:24]
B
And I'm gonna throw away one of every pair of your socks so you only have Mitchmot socks for the rest of your life.
- [70:33]
A
Okay, you know what? This is time to wrap. We gotta wrap this up. You can't be threatening them. We just said we gonna bring them both and now you're trying to bring destruction like. No, we gotta wrap this up, babe.
- [70:45]
B
If they say anything they can. It's mutually ass. All right, don't say anything mean you can have your socks. All right, all right, that's it. Okay, Bye, y'. All.
- [70:54]
A
I appreciate that.
- [70:55]
B
Bye. Thank you for listening to Normal Gossip. If you have a gossip story to share with us, email us@normalgossipefector.com or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679, gossip. If you love this podcast podcast and want to support us, become a friend or a friend of a friend@supportnormalgossip.com youm can follow the show on Instagram and TikTok ormalgossip. You can follow me on all social media eyedanay. H E Y Y D N A e this podcast was produced by Sierra Spragley Ricks and Jay Tolbiera. Our audio engineer is Samantha Gatzick. The co creators and dowager queens of Normal gossip are Kelsey McKinney and and defectors supervising producer Alex Sujong Laughlin. Justin Ellis is Defectors projects editor. Jasper Wang and Sean Kuhn are Defectors business guys. Tom Ley is our editor in chief. Dan McQuaid runs our merch store which you can find at normalgossip store. Tara Jacoby designed our show art. Thank you to Brandi Jensen, David Raw, Katherine Shue, Serena Embler, Chris Thompson, Dave McKenna, Patrick Redford and Ray Rado for your help on this season. Thank you to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber based media company. Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia. I'm your host Rachel Hampton and remember you didn't hear this from me. Radiotopia.
- [72:22]
A
From prx.