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Normal Gossip
Bonus Episode: Life as a New York Times Bestselling Author with Kelsey McKinney
00:39:09
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- [00:00]
Rachel Hampton
Hi there, it's Rachel Hampton. Friends, I don't know about you, but with inflation and grocery prices what they are, I am really looking to up my home cooking game this year. You and me, this is it. This is the year we're going to become the home cooks we are meant to be. And to help us on our culinary journey, I cannot recommend enough one of our newer Radiotopia shows, the Recipe with Kenji and Deb. Kenji and Deb, of course, are two of the best home cooks alive. Between Kenji's YouTube, Deb's iconic blog, Smint Kitchen, and seven New York Times bestselling cookbooks between them, they have helped literally millions of people eat better at home and have fun while doing it. In each episode, Kenji and Deb talk about the essential ingredients and techniques of a beloved everyday dish. The little things that really make a dish sing. Beware. They have very different styles and sometimes they will even disagree. You'll have to figure out what works for you, and that's really the purpose of the show. To make you better at cooking food you like to eat. From Radiotopia, from prx, the Recipe with Kenji and Deb. Listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcast. Hello, my gorgeous gossipy darlings. Welcome to another bonus episode of Normal Gossip. I'm your host, Rachel Hampton, and we've got a super spooky special show planned for you today. But first, we have to do a little housekeeping. You know who doesn't love a freshly vacuumed rug? The first bit of housekeeping. In case it's not totally clear from what I just said or the title of this episode, this is a bonus episode. We are living in some dark times, and we here at the Normal Gossip Team thought y'all deserved some little between season treats to tide you over. But soon, Normal, Normal Gossip will return. We're in the middle of production. We're going to start recording soon, and we've got some incredible stories that I cannot wait for y'all to hear. To that end, second bit of housekeeping. We have a season eight premiere date. The next season of Normal Gossip will premiere on Wednesday, April 9, 2025. Mark your calendars, babes, with a big fat star. And last bit of housekeeping. I promise, this area rug, she's really big. Dowager Queen of gossip, Kelsey McKinney is currently on book tour. By the time this episode drops, you'll still be able to see her in Chicago or Toronto. If you're in the Midwest or in Canada, you're so lucky. And no matter where you live, you'll be able to buy Kelsey's incredible book. You didn't hear this from me. Mostly true notes on gossip. And that perfectly segues into today's special guest, here to talk all about her book, her tour, and you guessed it, gossip. We've got the one, the only Kelsey McKinney in the house. Kelsey, hello.
- [03:01]
Kelsey McKinney
Hello, Rachel. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be back.
- [03:06]
Rachel Hampton
I'm so happy you're here. I miss you.
- [03:10]
Kelsey McKinney
I miss you too. We haven't been on Zoom together in, like, at least a week, which is just insufferable and impossible. We cannot be expected to do that again.
- [03:20]
Rachel Hampton
No, that is truly a crime. And there are many crimes being done, but that is certainly one of them.
- [03:25]
Kelsey McKinney
It's hurtful.
- [03:26]
Rachel Hampton
It's really hurtful. Yes. I miss you. Your loyal legion of gossip mongers miss you.
- [03:32]
Kelsey McKinney
I miss all of you so much.
- [03:34]
Rachel Hampton
How has life on the other side been?
- [03:36]
Kelsey McKinney
It's been crazy. I've been doing so much promotion. I've been so busy, I don't sleep anymore. So that's exciting. But I'm hopeful that very soon I will hibernate. And that's going to be really nice for me to be asleep for a very long time.
- [03:51]
Rachel Hampton
Wow, that's gonna be beautiful. What are you gonna come out of hibernation at? Are you gonna do a transformation?
- [03:57]
Kelsey McKinney
Oh, my God. Not physically, but I hope emotionally and mentally. I hope maybe by the end of it I'll be able to meditate, something I've never been able to do.
- [04:06]
Rachel Hampton
Oh, my God. Emptying your mind.
- [04:08]
Kelsey McKinney
Imagine. Imagine your mind being so. So, so blank and your brain so smooth. That's what I want.
- [04:15]
Rachel Hampton
I need all the folds in my brain just steamed out like a beautiful piece of linen.
- [04:21]
Kelsey McKinney
Mm. Yeah.
- [04:24]
Rachel Hampton
Yeah. Well, today, as I said at the top, we've got a super special episode planned. Since Kelsey has so kindly blessed us with her presence, I'm gonna ask her all my burning questions about yout didn't hear this from me. And her life as a famous author. Oh, my God. Kelsey, are you ready?
- [04:41]
Kelsey McKinney
I guess so, yeah.
- [04:43]
Rachel Hampton
Oh, my God. Okay, first the book. Beautiful. Let's just start there. I love her. Can I read you the first thing I underlined?
- [04:51]
Kelsey McKinney
I do not wanna say yes to that, but I feel that I don't have a choice, so go for it.
- [04:56]
Rachel Hampton
Don't worry, it's not a direct quote from you.
- [04:59]
Kelsey McKinney
Oh, thank you.
- [04:59]
Rachel Hampton
That's later. In the very first chapter, you quote from a book about five Victorian marriages that I immediately wrote. Down that I wish to read, that is written by Phyllis Rose. And Rose writes, gossip may be the beginning of moral inquiry, the low end of the platonic ladder which leads to self understanding. We are desperate for information about how other people live because we want to know how to live ourselves. Yet we are taught to see this desire as an illegitimate form of prying.
- [05:30]
Kelsey McKinney
So this book rules. It absolutely slaps. It's so old, it's like decades old. And all it is, is Phyllis Rose took like, literally five Victorian marriages that were all like, you know, when we think of the Victorians, we think of like, prudes.
- [05:45]
Rachel Hampton
Yes.
- [05:46]
Kelsey McKinney
Like, they hate sex, they're having no fun, they're losers. Right.
- [05:50]
Rachel Hampton
Cholera.
- [05:51]
Kelsey McKinney
Cholera, Exactly. And Phyllis Rose writes about five alternative Victorian marriages. So people who were, like, living with someone when they were technically married to someone else, people who had three wives. Right. All of this stuff. And it is such a, like, gossipy, prying book. And I think it just like, it does a great job talking about, like, why we care about other people's marriages. But it also is so interesting because it's like, oh, we've always been this, like, everyone has always been like this. Which is really fun.
- [06:22]
Rachel Hampton
It's really nice to know that my interest in other people's marriages is just simply a human trait that I will not be trying to eradicate anymore.
- [06:31]
Kelsey McKinney
No, you can't get out of it. It's evolutionary.
- [06:34]
Rachel Hampton
It's designed to keep me safe.
- [06:36]
Kelsey McKinney
Yeah.
- [06:39]
Rachel Hampton
That'S what this is for. But I wanted to talk about the idea of gossip as a tool for self understanding. And I wanted to know if you feel like there's something about yourself that you have understood better through gossip.
- [06:51]
Kelsey McKinney
Oh, my God. Yeah. When I was reporting this book and researching it, I was reading a lot of studies by sociologists, and one thing that they talk about a lot is that we use gossip as a tool not only to understand our society, but to understand ourselves. So it's like when I'm talking to you about something, I might surprise myself by, like an instinct that I have or someone I think is a villain in your story and realize, oh, this is a underlying bias that I have in my life. Right. So I think a bias that I know I have that comes up all the time when I'm gossiping is like, I don't trust any managers, like, none of them. And sometimes, like, people will be telling me a story and I'm immediately like, well, clearly your boss is like the one who did this. And they're like, no, my boss is like, really Good. And I'm like, well, not according to me. Right. Like, I'm like, I reject this information. It's not for me. And that's really interesting because it's like we're just having a casual conversation and yet it's revealing things about myself and my own biases. To me, that's an easy example. There are obviously harder ones to encounter.
- [07:53]
Rachel Hampton
I've been watching Sex and the City for the first time recently.
- [07:56]
Kelsey McKinney
Wow, okay. Can't wait to get into this.
- [07:58]
Rachel Hampton
Yeah, I know. But I found myself really turned off by some of the things that Miranda does. And I said this to my roommate and she said, that's really funny because I kind of consider you Miranda, in some regards a mixture of Miranda and Charlotte.
- [08:14]
Kelsey McKinney
Uh huh. Yeah.
- [08:16]
Rachel Hampton
And I feel like some of the things that we find most distasteful in other people are often the things that are true about ourselves. And so I've wondered if you found that as you have been really doing this inquiry into gossip where there are things, kind of first instinct reactions that you're like, oh, this actually says a lot about me and my personality.
- [08:38]
Kelsey McKinney
Absolutely. Like, I think something I'm always like getting mad at people for is I'm like, why are you working all the time? Stop working all the time. Like, this is. I like literally constantly. And all of my friends are like, you dumbass. Like, you work more than anyone we know. And I'm like, I know, but I don't like that about myself. And so I want to enforce it in other people. And also I think it's like a lack of self awareness. Right. Where I'm like, I'm built different. It's different when I do it. Right. And it absolutely is not. But I think a lot of that comes up when you're talking about other people because you're making judgments on them constantly and you're saying like, well, I think that's stupid. I think she's dumb. And that's the danger of gossiping with someone who knows you really well, because they're like, sweetie, look in the mirror. Have you seen this? It's your front facing camera on your iPhone.
- [09:34]
Rachel Hampton
So would you say that that has made you more either like empathetic towards other people or sympathetic towards yourself? Like, do you feel like you offer yourself more grace now that you.
- [09:44]
Kelsey McKinney
Definitely not. No way. I don't offer myself like any ounce of grace that exists in the world. I would love to come on here and lie and be like, yes, I've become very good at giving myself rain. No, I have infinite amounts of empathy for other people, for myself, nada, Nothing.
- [10:00]
Rachel Hampton
And that's beautiful. It's beautiful that you know that it's not beautiful that it happens.
- [10:06]
Kelsey McKinney
Yeah, that's fair. It's not even necessarily the actual act of gossiping. And the judgment of that is what, like, reveals something about you. It's also the kinds of gossip you want to talk about. Right. Like, I noticed this especially in talk therapy, where, like, I'll bring something up and my therapist will be like, why are we talking about this? And I'm like, well, I just thought it was really interesting. And she'll push on that. Right. Of like, but why? Why do you think it's so interesting? What is it that's, like, catching on you, like, snagging. And I think that that is, like, also true. The stories that you instantly want to turn around and tell someone are ones that often say something about you that is so real.
- [10:46]
Rachel Hampton
I hate when my therapist does that.
- [10:48]
Kelsey McKinney
I know.
- [10:48]
Rachel Hampton
She's like, why do you think it's interesting? And it's like, hold on. Everyone thinks it's interesting. Let's stop. Let's stop thinking about me. I'm here to host a lecture, Cece.
- [10:59]
Kelsey McKinney
This is a tight 45 that I'm doing. You're here to lie.
- [11:02]
Rachel Hampton
This is a TED Talk that you happen to be present for and that I'm paying to do. Okay, back to you.
- [11:11]
Kelsey McKinney
Okay.
- [11:12]
Rachel Hampton
One thing I really, really love about you. Didn't hear this from me. And also just the project of normal gossip in general is that I think you really lean into the ambiguity of gossip's nature. It's not a lot of ambiguity in society today. Everything's a take.
- [11:27]
Kelsey McKinney
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
- [11:28]
Rachel Hampton
And to borrow Rose's phrasing, you do a really good job of kind of undermining the society wide illegitimacy of gossip. But I also appreciate that you don't lean too hard in the other direction and make it out to be this, like, inherently moral good. And you describe it, and you have said it already as gossip is a tool. I'm curious as to whether you think the nature of the tool is controlled more by the wielder of the tool. So the giver of the gossip or by whom the tool is wielded against which is the subject of the gossip? Or is this some secret third thing, in this case, the audience for the gossip, who do you think kind of controls the nature of the gossip more?
- [12:12]
Kelsey McKinney
So I want to say if I'm thinking about gossip as a tool that we use Right. That can be used for good or evil or neutral. Then I think most often what I'm talking about is either the person who's telling the gossip. Right. Who is, like, bringing something with an intention. Right. Like, I feel like I say this all the time when people are like, how do you know if you're gossiping badly? Like, how do you know if you're being malicious? And I'm like, you know in your body, dude, Right. Like, you can feel it when you're, like, intentionally going after someone who maybe doesn't deserve it. And in that case, I would say, like, that is gossip being used as a tool for evil.
- [12:48]
Rachel Hampton
Right.
- [12:49]
Kelsey McKinney
Or for malicious intent. But I also think there's, like, there is a secret third thing, which is, like, your society's morals. Right. Gossip is used to enforce whatever we decide as a society is valuable to us. And so if that's something innocuous, like, we decide that we hate it when people wear the color purple. Right. We will gossip about people who wear it to try and keep them from not doing it, to try and sanction them back into the correct behavior. And so I think there is, of course, individual agency in how you're using gossip, but there is also this greater umbrella that we exist in, which is like, what do we say our culture believes in, which we don't all get an equal share of say in.
- [13:31]
Rachel Hampton
Yeah. It's like a piece of gossip will land differently with someone depending on the kind of societal context that they come from. Like, something that feels even noteworthy in. I don't know, the UK might not feel noteworthy here. I think about this as One Direction. I think I said this on one of our bonus episodes. I think one of the reason Larry Stylinson became such a big deal is because there's a far bigger culture of touching in male friendships in the UK than there is here. And that cultural difference, I think, gave a lot of air for what is ultimately gossip.
- [14:11]
Kelsey McKinney
Yeah. Or even conspiracy at that point.
- [14:14]
Rachel Hampton
Ooh, what's the difference?
- [14:16]
Kelsey McKinney
A conspiracy theory is like a gossip that flows too close to the sun. Right. And so it's like, it's gotten too big and out of control, and it starts being like, I'll look for any evidence of this rumor that I've already decided is true and maybe to a nefarious intent. Right. Like, outing someone would be one. But I think it's also. It's not even necessarily UK US Culture. Right. Like, using gossip to socially sanction someone, which is, like, put them in a line based on what you believe in is also a party disconnect, right? So like you and I would view the use of social sanctioning to say like you can't say these list of words that we think are harmful to people, right? Like these are slurs that we don't use. We would view that as a moral good, right? There are people in this country who occupy a lot of positions of power who would say that is a moral evil to enforce that. But also that something like slut shaming is a moral good, right? So often the tool of gossip is tells you more about who's holding it than anything else.
- [15:25]
Rachel Hampton
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- [17:00]
Kelsey McKinney
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- [17:30]
Rachel Hampton
Your chapter Knowledge is Power is about one of our absolute favorite topics.
- [17:36]
Kelsey McKinney
Reality Television. Reality television.
- [17:40]
Rachel Hampton
Now's the time for me to read something you wrote.
- [17:42]
Kelsey McKinney
Oh, God. Uh, oh.
- [17:44]
Rachel Hampton
You write, knowledge is power, and reality television is a kind of warped mirror. It shows us who we were, what we want, and how we relate to others. One of the many things it reflects is that gossip is how we decide whom to trust and whom not to trust. It helps us decide who is safe and who is not, who will protect us and who won't. You also write in that chapter about Traitors, an incredible TV show, and Tom Sandoval of Skandoval fame, who are currently engaging in one of the most iconic crossovers of the century.
- [18:18]
Kelsey McKinney
My God.
- [18:19]
Rachel Hampton
Can we talk for a second about Tom Sandoval's performance on Traitors? Do you think? Yeah, it is in any way response to scandal, or is he just like that?
- [18:29]
Kelsey McKinney
Okay, so something I've noticed, this is the third season of American Traders, and the first season was half celebrities, half regular people, half normies. Second season was all Celebrities. This season is all celebrities. And something I've noticed is that because Traders is a game that anyone can play and that has rules that kind of don't require you to be a good strategist to be on it, it's a really great place for publicists to try and get their person on because it gives them FaceTime and they can make jokes. And so there are people in this season of Traders that I'm like, what the hell are you doing here? Right? Like, Sam Ashgari, I think, is actually the best example of this, where it's like, what?
- [19:14]
Rachel Hampton
What are you doing here?
- [19:16]
Kelsey McKinney
Who let you in here? Right. Like, what are you doing? And it's like, well, it's because it's good PR for him. If he just sits there and doesn't open his mouth and looks pretty beautiful.
- [19:26]
Rachel Hampton
Most of the time, helps win the challenges, demonstrates how strong he is.
- [19:31]
Kelsey McKinney
We are like, oh, I feel positively.
- [19:33]
Rachel Hampton
I do feel positively told.
- [19:34]
Kelsey McKinney
Right, right. And so it's like, that's a really good move for a publicist. So I think for Tom Sandoval, it's like, if I'm Tom Sandoval's publicist, which, like, you would have to pay me so, so, so much money to do that job because it's immoral and also insane. But this is a really good placement for him because it's like, he's on tv, he can't really get himself into that much trouble. And so he's just, like, wandering around the castle. Now, the Survivor players are really strategic, right? Like, they are always really strategic. And that's kind. Survivor game is played, right? Is like four dimensional chess that everyone is playing at all times, which just like creates chaos. And so what's kind of funny to me about traders is you have the survivors and someone like Wes, who's a challenge guy, right. You have people who have come from competition reality shows and they're trying to play eight dimensional chess at all times. And that works when everyone around you is also playing eight dimensional chess. The problem with the traders is that you have Boston Rob and Carolyn playing this chess game and you have like Gabby Windy in there, who's not playing chess at all, right. And she's just like sitting there. And so it's like, you can't. It makes it really hard to fight her though, because it's like you really don't know what her next move is because she's not playing a strategic game. She's playing a, like, emotion based game.
- [21:04]
Rachel Hampton
How did you know? The next question I was gonna ask, which is about friend of the pod.
- [21:09]
Kelsey McKinney
Friend of the podcast, Gabby, Wendy, and.
- [21:11]
Rachel Hampton
Also Chrishelle Stoss, who I feel like I have been trying to nail down how to describe their game. They call themselves the Bambi's, and I have a twofold question, which is how would you describe their game? You mentioned an emotional game. And also how do you think their gameplay utilizes gossip?
- [21:32]
Kelsey McKinney
So they call themselves the Bambi's because they all have big eyes. Big eyes, which I think is incredible and beautiful.
- [21:38]
Rachel Hampton
Same.
- [21:39]
Kelsey McKinney
And I think they're also kind of playing a game where it's like everyone assumes we are dumb. Right. And so that is like, we're just gonna embrace that and that's fine. What's funny, at least in the episodes that have aired when we're recording this right now, is that Gabby's been right several times and then she's been talked out of it by other people. Right. So that's kind of funny because I'm like, you need to trust yourself more, girl. Right? Like, you were on it. And then someone was like, no, no, no, no, no, Gabby, no, no, no. You don't know anything. And it's like, well, they're wrong. That person was wrong. Which we can see as viewers. So I think alliances in general are really smart for gossip. This is part of why the Survivor players do so well is that when you are in an alliance, you can gather gossip and bring it together and then you have more ears. Right. Which helps you make conclusions faster and it also gives you a voting block. Part of what all of These games require is knowledge of who's voting for what. When you head into the roundtable and you can see the Survivor players doing that, right, they're circulating really fast to try and ask people, like, what are you thinking? What are you feeling? And they're counting is what they're doing. They're trying to be like, okay, so then how many votes do you need for a majority? And it's like, if you know that everyone's votes are split, then you need fewer votes to have a majority. And so I don't think the Bambi's are doing that, like, quite obviously, but I do think the Bambi's are like vibes based, like, they're like, I'm getting a bad vibe from you. And the thing is, in Traders, that's equally as good information as anything else because you have no information. But it's mostly an exercise in group think, which is part of what I love about it. So it is intertwined with gossip. Why we love a show like Traders. Right. It's the same reason that you love a show like Survivor. Like the reason I titled that chapter Knowledge is Power is because there's an idol that exists in some seasons of Survivor where you can, if you have the Knowledge is Power idol, you can steal someone else's idol just by saying, I know that Rachel has an immunity idol and then you get to just take it. And I think about that a lot, about how, like, these games teach us to behave and how we watch them with the hope that if you know enough, you can control the future. Right. Like, we all watch the traitors and say, like, these idiots, right? If I were in there, I would do it totally differently. And the reality is like, no, you wouldn't because you wouldn't know who the traitors are. If you were in there, you would be in the same darkness as everyone else. And like, that's a really fascinating aspect of the way that we talk about these games is we're trying to teach ourselves how to avoid these same fates.
- [24:19]
Rachel Hampton
Yeah. I think it really goes back to one of the points that you really kind of hammer home on in your book, which is that gossip is ultimately a quest for knowing the right way to live in the world.
- [24:35]
Kelsey McKinney
Yeah. I think it is.
- [24:55]
Rachel Hampton
Huge news. Our dowager queen Kelsey McKinney wrote a new York Times best selling book of beautiful essays about gossip. It's called you'd didn't hear this from Me. Mostly True notes on gossip and I am obsessed. It's about how we use gossip to learn about ourselves. It's about Britney Spears and West Elm, Caleb and Gilgamesh and Picasso. It's so fun and not to be biased, but I kind of think it's pretty excellent. It's out right now in hardback and a super sexy audiobook which Kelsey narrates. You can buy wherever you buy your books. You can Also go to KelseyMcKenneyBook.com to see all retailers this time of year. Every cat is an indoor cat and when it's freezing cold outside, I'm an indoor human. And if there's one thing that can really stink up being stuck inside, it is a litter box. Don't let that nasty smell ruin your winter wonderland. You can switch to Pretty Litter. Pretty Litter's non clumping formula traps odor and moisture. It's ultra absorbent, it's lightweight, low dust and 16 pound bag works for up to a month. Since Pretty Litter ships free to your door, you never run out. You don't have to worry about those huge 40 pound bags of kitty litter taking up space. And more importantly, you don't have to go outside and get cold. Indoor cats and indoor humans agree. Pretty Litter helps your house smell fresh and clean. Go to prettylitter.comgossip to save 20% on your first order and get a free cat toy that is prettylitter.comgossip to save 20% on your first order AND get a free cat toy. Predolitter.comgossip Terms and conditions apply. See site for details. Who doesn't love the good things in life? Even though I enjoy a little luxury, it doesn't mean I can always afford it. Until I discovered Quince. Quince is my go to for luxury essentials at affordable prices. Quince offers a range of high quality items at prices within reach like 100% Mongolian cashmere sweaters from $50, washable silk tops and dresses, organic con sweaters and 14 karat gold jewelry. And the best part? All Quint's Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. If you know me, you know that I love a tote bag. And for the past few years I have been looking for a leather tote bag to carry my laptop in to put all my little water bottles and treats. And I just got one from Quince that I am obsessed with. As soon as it arrived I immediately thought I can't wait until my best friend sees it. She saw it, she said that's cute. Give yourself the luxury you deserve with quince. Go to quince.com gossip for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q-U-I-N C E.com to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quints.com gossip. I personally love publicity publishing gossip. Part of why I miss you so much is because you've been trapped in the book press minds.
- [28:43]
Kelsey McKinney
I really have.
- [28:45]
Rachel Hampton
This isn't your first time releasing a book. Everyone go by godspeare the girls. But I wanted to ask what's been different this time around?
- [28:52]
Kelsey McKinney
Oh my God.
- [28:52]
Rachel Hampton
Tell me about the machinery. I feel like most people don't know what goes on behind the scenes.
- [28:58]
Kelsey McKinney
Yeah. My first book was much smaller than this book first off, right. I had a smaller advance. It was a debut novel. I didn't have nearly as big of a platform for it. And so I didn't really do any press for it. Like we got a couple of reviews and people read it and I was so happy about that. But I didn't do any interviews about that book. Basically. Maybe one or two here or there. And it was also the summer of 2021 and so we were still not going anywhere. And so I kind of naively going into this book was like, no problem, right? Like, I've done it before. Like I know how to play this game, easy. And this is a totally different book. Right. I've been doing tons of interviews because as we know, the topic of gossip is one that almost everyone wants to talk about almost all the time. Which is great. I'm really grateful to have done it. But it means that I have been in the mines and trapped away from you, doing interviews and preparing stuff and making a tour run of show and all of these little pieces that I think feel really separate from the writing of the book, which is really interesting because I think when you think about creative careers and when you don't have one, you think about output, right? We think about, like, how many podcasts come out. You don't think about all the stuff that goes in before you get to do that. And so in a book, it's kind of the opposite, right? You spend all of this time making the product and then once the product is done, you have to completely pivot into just pitching it, which is a totally different skill.
- [30:34]
Rachel Hampton
And it's far more about yourself as a person. There's this way that people tend to believe, even if they don't mean to, that fiction is about the author, even though the point is that it's fake and that you made it all up.
- [30:50]
Kelsey McKinney
It's funny you say that, because I don't know That I knew that before I published my novel. Like, I don't know that I ever read a novel, except for maybe, like, the Ferrante novels, and thought, oh, this is autobiographical, right? Like, I don't know that I ever thought that. And so I was actually very surprised when my first book came out by how many people were like, well, which parts are true? Which parts happen to you? And I was like, well, none of these characters are real. I made them all up, right? Like, none of this is real. And I would tell people, like, well, none of it is true. And also, like, all of it is true. I've had every emotion in that book, right? And so at an emotional level, it's real in terms of the events, none of it's real. Which is, I think, really complicated. Like, it feels uncomfortable to be made to feel something based on nothing.
- [31:38]
Rachel Hampton
Mm, mm, mm. And I think we both. Well, let me not speak for you. I find nonfiction to be far more revealing of an author than fiction is. But I wanted to ask this time around, or even the way people are kind of talking to you about, you didn't hear this from me. Are the questions you're getting asked more or less personal than they were for God spare the Girls?
- [32:04]
Kelsey McKinney
I think they're less personal, honestly. I think a lot of the questions I got asked about the novel were personal questions. It was about my upbringing, my experience, like, that kind of stuff. Whereas with the gossip questions, we have been talking more about gossip as a construction. It's unclear to me, though, if that's, like, just because it's hard to interview someone about fiction, right? Like, there's. It's either questions about craft, which are basically only interesting if you are a writer or want to be a writer, or it's spoilers, and people are really anti spoiler culture. So if you're talking to a novelist, you don't really have a choice besides to talk about either process or them personally. Whereas with a nonfiction book, it's easier to talk about the stuff that's actually in the book.
- [32:51]
Rachel Hampton
I mean, getting into questions, are there any that you're sick of answering?
- [32:55]
Kelsey McKinney
I don't know that I'm sick of it, but I feel like the question of, like, what my relationship with gossip is at this point, I've said so many times that, like, someone asked it to me recently, and I, like, zoned out halfway through and came back after I was done talking, and I was like, that's crazy. Like, I don't. Who knows what I said, right? Like.
- [33:14]
Rachel Hampton
Like, when you drive home and you're like, how did I get from point A to point B?
- [33:18]
Kelsey McKinney
Exactly. Entered like a fugue state.
- [33:20]
Rachel Hampton
Yeah.
- [33:21]
Kelsey McKinney
To that question. It reminded me of being like a teenager. You know, when you're, like, in college and people keep being like, what are you going to do with your degree? And you just, like, create an answer that is so, like, repetitive and that you're just saying the same thing over and over again that you forget you're saying it. One of my publicists sent me this video of Lady Gaga doing press for A Star Is Born.
- [33:45]
Rachel Hampton
Y. You sent me this.
- [33:47]
Kelsey McKinney
It's so funny. It's like four minutes of just, like, spliced interviews that she did of her saying the same exact quote over and over again. Just saying, like, there can be a hundred people in the room and 99 of them don't believe in you. But I had this one incredible talent with me. There can be a hundred people in the room and 99 don't believe in you. And you just need one to believe in you. And that was him. So you can have a hundred people in the room that are watching you. And 99 don't believe in you. And 1 does. And that was him. And I don't feel like I'm like, at any level near that well media trained. But it is. When you're answering the same question over and over again, you start to feel like a broken record a little bit.
- [34:29]
Rachel Hampton
Do you feel like that changes your answer? Like, do you feel like your relationship to gossip has changed through being asked so much about what your relationship to gossip is?
- [34:38]
Kelsey McKinney
I think I've gotten better at answering it for sure. And I think I have realized, you know, I used to answer the question by being like, oh, well, I grew up in this way. And I, you know, stuff I've talked about on this podcast a hundred times. I grew up in this way, and this is the way my relationship with gossip evolved. And I think I've started through this process of being asking it a lot, thinking more about, like, well, what is my relationship with gossip right now? Right. What does it look like in this immediate moment? And I think the answer to that is, like, it feels very intimate. Not in the, like, intimacy of a lifelong friend. It feels intimate in the way of, like, a summer camp bunk mate. I didn't go to summer camp, but I assume this is what it's like. Like having a freshman year roommate where it's like, I see you vomit. And also, like, I'm so tired of you. Right? And so it's like, it's that kind of, like, beautiful. I'm excited to move out and be like, I miss her.
- [35:35]
Rachel Hampton
Truly. I'm having flashbacks. Yeah.
- [35:39]
Kelsey McKinney
Everyone has one of those roommates where it's like, you have this forced intimacy because you are constantly together. Which is, like, interesting, because even if you might have chosen it by the time you're forced to be together for so long, it's like, oof.
- [35:54]
Rachel Hampton
Yeah. You learn some things that you don't perhaps need to know.
- [35:58]
Kelsey McKinney
Yeah.
- [35:59]
Rachel Hampton
Do you have any questions about the book that you wish you'd been asked?
- [36:03]
Kelsey McKinney
There's a chapter in the book that I think is, like, maybe one of the last ones I wrote that is about Picasso and, like, what we do with gossip that we maybe don't like. That I feel like I haven't talked about at all, which is maybe because it's like, a little dicey.
- [36:17]
Rachel Hampton
Do you want to talk a little bit about it right now?
- [36:19]
Kelsey McKinney
Sure. So I write about how I have always loved Picasso. I was trained as an artist in high school, and I love to go to a museum and look around. And it has always been infuriating for me that I immediately, in any gallery, am like, ooh, what's that? I love that. And then I walk over there and it's Picasso. And I'm like, this is so annoying because it is, like, very well known that Picasso is an asshole. Right. Everyone knows this. It has, like, been known for decades. And I write in the book about one of my favorite books, which is Francois Guillot's My Life with Picasso, which is a memoir. She was his third wife, basically had kids with him, and she wrote this memoir about living with him that is really, really brutal. It's this kind of, like, drawn out affair where she's like, I had never been more in love with my life. And then also he, like, burnt me with a cigarette. Right. Which is like this terrible. Right. Awful form of violence. And I found it so interesting to read because she's a great. I mean, the book is really well written and it provides you this insight into one of these quote unquote men. But I think she also is willing to hold a lot more nuance for him than people now, like, she's able to say, like, he was an awful partner. He was an awful man. I had a terrible time being married to him. And also he's one of the greatest painters to be alive. Right. And that is, like, a really complicated place to sit. And, like, I don't know that I can even do it fully with Picasso. I can't do it with really, any of these, like, great abusive men. But it's like, that is a kind of interesting problem with gossip, where it's like, does gossip discredit everything? I think sometimes it can, but I don't know that it always does.
- [38:02]
Rachel Hampton
I feel like that's kind of the crux of Cancel culture.
- [38:07]
Kelsey McKinney
Oh, God, it is.
- [38:10]
Rachel Hampton
You saw the face I was making before I actually got to what I was saying.
- [38:14]
Kelsey McKinney
Yeah.
- [38:15]
Rachel Hampton
But I think in the most generous light possible at the beginning of what Cancel Culture now is.
- [38:22]
Kelsey McKinney
Sure.
- [38:22]
Rachel Hampton
The question was, can gossip, can something negative about someone outweigh this other thing about them? How do we actually have a full view of someone that's not just their best and not just their worst? How do we integrate that into one person and our understanding of them so we don't just discard them, but we also don't just exalt them?
- [38:49]
Kelsey McKinney
Yeah. I think it's really hard to talk about this at this point in time because we've been through kind of the first wave of Cancel Culture, and what we saw in that is that no one really got canceled. Right. Like, some people got called out for their behavior, but there were basically no consequences for most of those people.
- [39:06]
Rachel Hampton
They were outright rewarded in some cases at this point.
- [39:10]
Kelsey McKinney
Exactly. And so I think it's really hard to even talk about that in a nuanced way because it's like, well, there is no actual consequence here. Right. It would be a different conversation if we were talking about someone who actually faced consequences for their behaviors, and then we could look at the things they had produced separately. And I don't know that we'll ever get there, but it is a complicated problem to like something by someone that you think is bad.
- [39:36]
Rachel Hampton
Yeah. Going through that right now with Neil Gaiman, who. Yeah, that's a great example behind me, has at least three to four books of his. Coraline is one of my favorite movies.
- [39:45]
Kelsey McKinney
Yeah.
- [39:46]
Rachel Hampton
I don't know the next time I'll be able to engage with his work.
- [39:49]
Kelsey McKinney
I mean, it sucks, right? It sucks that the people who make art are people and that some of those people are bad.
- [39:55]
Rachel Hampton
Yeah.
- [39:56]
Kelsey McKinney
Like, it's really hard. I know it wasn't like this for me, but I know for a lot of people, Harry Potter was like this, Right. Where same was this kind of devastating blow to lose something that you loved so much. And I get that. Like, it's really hard to handle gossip about a person that directly created something, but then the thing they created is, like, technically separate from that. Like, messy.
- [40:23]
Rachel Hampton
Yeah. Yeah. And also not even if it is separate, it never is. Exactly. There's no way it's not part of the lens that you're looking at them through, and neither should it be possible to look at them without that affecting your view of them. Well, speaking of things that are hard.
- [40:37]
Kelsey McKinney
Oh, great.
- [40:39]
Rachel Hampton
One thing that I know is hard about publishing a nonfiction book specifically is that the book came out February 11th, but you put your finishing touches on this book several months ago.
- [40:51]
Kelsey McKinney
Yeah. Probably in August.
- [40:53]
Rachel Hampton
I'm sure there are so many things, especially coming from someone who is a blogger at heart, that you wish so bad. And I wanted to ask you, what are the things that you would have added into the book if you were to be writing it right now? Because I'm sure there are so many things that you're just like, like, ah, yeah.
- [41:11]
Kelsey McKinney
Books are so annoying. Like, as a blogger by training and in heart, like, I've always worked on a really tight turnaround. Right. Like, even when I was doing cultural criticism, it was like the max I ever waited for something to be published was like a print deadline, which is probably six or eight weeks out. Right. And max. Max. And with a book, it's like I say I put my finishing touches on it in August, but, like, that was fact checking and copy editing and, like, final touches. It wasn't like, I'm gonna insert 12 pages of material here. Right. So in reality, I haven't been able to add much to this since, I don't know, June of last year.
- [41:51]
Rachel Hampton
Yeah. Which is a long time.
- [41:53]
Kelsey McKinney
It's a long time. The first thing I'm thinking about is the Justin Baldoni Blake Lively case. Right.
- [41:58]
Rachel Hampton
Yes.
- [41:59]
Kelsey McKinney
I'm like, they could have done me a real favor and done this drama two years ago. Like, that would have helped me personally so much. And I know you have done a lot of, like, reading on this also, but that is such an interesting case from a gossip perspective because it is not only just an absolute mess of he said, she said material, it is so revealing about the gossip industry in Hollywood on its own. Right. Seeing, like, who gets what and when these things are revealed is just. I would have loved to have had that when I was working.
- [42:38]
Rachel Hampton
Yeah. I can already see that chapter. That would have been.
- [42:42]
Kelsey McKinney
It would have been a banger.
- [42:43]
Rachel Hampton
It would have been a banger. It would have been a banger. I mean, re release in 10 years with updated essays. Who can say?
- [42:50]
Kelsey McKinney
Who can say?
- [42:51]
Rachel Hampton
It'll have gold foil on it.
- [42:53]
Kelsey McKinney
Oh, my God. Sprayed edges. Who am I, Rebecca Yarros?
- [42:58]
Rachel Hampton
Sprayed edges.
- [43:01]
Kelsey McKinney
Kelsey, I know. We're all so horny for sprayed edges.
- [43:05]
Rachel Hampton
Don't hit me with a good time.
- [43:08]
Kelsey McKinney
Don't you like that?
- [43:11]
Rachel Hampton
Thank you for coming back, Kelsey.
- [43:13]
Kelsey McKinney
Thank you for having me. How do you feel to have announced the first episode date?
- [43:19]
Rachel Hampton
I am very excited. I feel like it's very similar to the Normal Gossip announcement in that this is something that I've known about for a hot minute and so by the time it becomes public, I almost forget that it's happening. And then I'm almost like, how do you know that? And it'll be like, oh, I told you.
- [43:37]
Kelsey McKinney
I announced it.
- [43:38]
Rachel Hampton
I announced it publicly. Yes, that'll happen to you. It's very strange when people now know or talk to me or like, congratulations. I'm just like, for what?
- [43:50]
Kelsey McKinney
What?
- [43:51]
Rachel Hampton
What are you talking about? That's a secret. Sh.
- [43:57]
Kelsey McKinney
Well, I'm very excited. I can't wait to listen. I'm all amped up.
- [44:02]
Rachel Hampton
I'm so excited for you to get to listen to this show as a fan.
- [44:05]
Kelsey McKinney
Me too. To actually be surprised by a twist instead of having planned how a twist will hit for months. Ugh, I can't wait.
- [44:12]
Rachel Hampton
You'll have to let me know how the twists hit.
- [44:14]
Kelsey McKinney
I will, but I'm sure they're gonna be great.
- [44:16]
Rachel Hampton
You heard it here. It's gonna be great. Thank you, Kelsey. Everyone. Go. Bye.
- [44:22]
Kelsey McKinney
You can do this for me. Thank you for having me.
- [44:26]
Rachel Hampton
Anytime, my queen. Thank you for listening to Normal gossip. If you have a gossip story to share with us, email us@normalgossipefefector.com or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679 GOSSIP. If you love this podcast and want to support us, become a friend or friend of a friend. As support normal gossip.com you can follow the show on Instagram and TikTok at Normal Gossip. You can follow me on all social media. Aidena that's H E y y d N a e this podcast was produced by Sierra Spraggley Ricks and J. Toviera. The co creators and dowager queens of normal Gossip are Alex Sujong Laughlin and Kelsey mckinney. Justin Ellis is defectors projects editor. Jasper Wang and Sean Kuhn are defectors business guys. Alex Sujan Laughlin is defector's supervising producer. Tom Le is our editor in Chief. Dan McQuaid runs our merch store which you can find at normalgossip store. Tara Jacoby designed our show art. Thank you to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector media is a collectively owned subscriber based media company, Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia. I'm your host, Rachel Hampton. And remember, you didn't hear this from me.
- [45:45]
Kelsey McKinney
Radiotopia, from prx.