It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue

Summary

Normal Gossip - Episode Summary: "It Was Never About the Figs with Caroline O'Donoghue"

Release Date: November 27, 2024

Host: Kelsey McKinney
Guest: Caroline O'Donoghue

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of Normal Gossip, host Kelsey McKinney welcomes renowned novelist, podcaster, and screenwriter Caroline O'Donoghue. Caroline, known for her New York Times bestselling fantasy series All Our Hidden Gifts and the television-adapted The Rachel Incident, joins Kelsey to delve into the fascinating world of gossip—both real and fictional. The episode promises a blend of comedic storytelling and insightful discussions on the nature of gossip in our lives.

The Gossip Narrative: The Story of Jane, Celeste, and Muffy

Caroline introduces a fictional gossip story centered around Jane, a widow who has lived in the same house for decades, and her interactions with her neighbors, Celeste and Muffy.

Key Plot Points:

• Jane's Static Life: Jane remains in her aging home while her neighborhood undergoes rapid modernization. Newer, wealthier residents move in, changing the dynamics of the area.

• Celeste and the Fig Sculpture: Celeste, Jane's new neighbor, is obsessed with a large bronze fig sculpture titled The Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. This artwork becomes a symbol of tension as Celeste insists on keeping it at Charles's (her ex-husband's) property despite their divorce.

• Muffy's Herb Garden: Muffy, another neighbor and best friend of Celeste, maintains an elaborate herb garden. When Muffy goes on vacation, she entrusts Celeste (not Jane) with watering her herbs, despite Jane's offer to help. This neglect leads to the herbs' demise, fueling Jane's resentment toward Celeste.

• The Rising Conflict: Celeste's desperation to reclaim the fig sculpture leads her to involve construction workers, who mistakenly attempt to place the sculpture in Muffy's yard. This blunder escalates the feud, bringing hidden financial troubles to light as Celeste and her ex-husband reveal their strained finances due to poor investments.

• Jane's Realization: Observing the chaos and manipulations between Celeste and Muffy, Jane comes to understand that her longstanding friendships were more about convenience and envy than genuine connection. This realization prompts her to move away, freeing herself from the neighborhood's petty dramas.

Notable Quotes:

• Caroline O'Donoghue [12:01]:
  "I always do feel as well that like you're far more likely to put... interesting lies to fill in the gaps."

• Kelsey McKinney [23:04]:
  "Everything, every detail is more bizarre than the next."

• Caroline O'Donoghue [55:30]:
  "She used her settlement money to buy this new house... expecting there would be more money down the road. And then there was, like, no more money."

Analysis and Discussions on Gossip Elements

Throughout the episode, Kelsey and Caroline engage in lively discussions about the elements of gossip portrayed in the story. They explore themes such as:

• The Fabrication of Truth: Caroline emphasizes how gossip often involves embellishing or altering facts to create intrigue.
  Caroline [04:12]:
  "When someone tells you a piece of gossip and then the first thing you think about is how much of this can I change and then put into a novel..."

• Social Dynamics and Jealousy: The tension between Jane, Celeste, and Muffy highlights underlying jealousy and social competition, especially within changing community landscapes.
  Kelsey [26:13]:
  "Jane dislikes her neighbor Celeste because of this fig problem and because she is filled with a whimsy that only rich people can have."

• Impact of Materialism: The fixation on art, status symbols, and appearances serves as a critique of materialism and its destructive influence on relationships.
  Kelsey [47:46]:
  "This is what happens when you have too much money... none of these problems are real."

• Transformation and Self-Discovery: Jane's journey from passive observation to active decision-making illustrates personal growth and the shedding of toxic relationships.
  Caroline [56:06]:
  "Jane realized that she was, like, kind of in no man's land between two sides of a war."

Conclusion

The episode wraps up with Kelsey and Caroline reflecting on the intricate web of gossip, deception, and personal growth depicted in the story. They appreciate the layered narrative that goes beyond surface-level drama to reveal deeper motivations and consequences.

Final Thoughts:

• Caroline [58:00]:
  "Muffy's gone too far on this. They are like, women in their 40s who were just trading fig and herb drama."

• Kelsey [57:04]:
  "It is about the fact that Charles made a series of very, very bad investments. He put most of their money into an eco dance resort..."

The episode leaves listeners contemplating the true nature of gossip and its effects on interpersonal relationships, all while enjoying the humorous and exaggerated antics of the characters involved.

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Notable Highlights with Timestamps:

• [04:12] Caroline on Gossip in Fiction:
  "When someone tells you a piece of gossip and then the first thing you think about is how much of this can I change..."

• [23:04] Kelsey's Description of the Fig Sculpture:
  "It's a bronze cast sculpture of a really big fig that is split in half... titled The Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil."

• [55:12] The Real Reason Behind the Fig Obsession:
  "It was never about the figs. It's about the financial ruin caused by Charles's failed investments."

• [44:58] Jane's Struggle with Modern Communication:
  "She can't see what's going on via text message, and she doesn't really know how to navigate social media."

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This episode of Normal Gossip masterfully intertwines fictional storytelling with insightful commentary, showcasing how gossip can be both a source of entertainment and a mirror reflecting societal issues.

Transcript

[Kelsey McKinney]

Hello, it's Kelsey McKinney from Normal Gossip. And as you may have already heard, it is time for Radiotopia's annual fall fundraiser. Radiotopia is the parent company that helps us make this podcast and they're the home to a lot of guests of the show that you know and love already. Avery Trufelman, Ronald Young Jr, Zakiya Gibbons, and more who you'll meet this season. Donating to Radiotopia gives money to help all of the shows in this network make money. Like our podcast, their shows take a ton of time and energy and money. Hours of work on every episode. And the money that's given in this drive will help our peers do better, exciting work that they're really passionate about. And one thing I love about Radiotopia is that it is really creator first. Creators retain full ownership of their ideas and get to make the creative and business choices that are right for them. Plus, Radiotopia is a nonprofit, so that's a tax deduction. If you're looking for one, head to Radiotopia fm. Donate to make a tax deductible contribution and support our work. Visit Radiotopia fm Donate to learn more and donate. Thank you so much. Hi and welcome to Normal Gossip. I'm Kelsey McKinney and in each episode of this podcast, we're going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. Today, I am so excited to have with me a long distance friend, Caroline O'Donohue. Caroline is a novelist, a podcaster and a screenwriter. All Our Hidden Gifts, her fantasy series for young adults is a New York Times bestseller. And the Rachel Incident is being adapted for television by Universal Studios. Wow, that's cool. Caroline's podcast, Sentimental Garbage charts internationally and has acquired over 9 million downloads worldwide. Also, I love it. She was born in Cork, Ireland and she currently lives in London. Caroline, welcome. Hello.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

I'm so excited to be here. You've no idea. This is fantastic.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Caroline, will you start me off with the classic first question and tell me what your relationship with Gossip is?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Wow. Many and varied. Like I feel. So in case it's unclear to your listeners, I am an Irish person and, and like there's this whole thing of like, I get to sit on all these amazing literature panels and have people ask me really thoughtful questions about like, what is it with the Irish and storytelling and to that and the whole like strong oral tradition thing. And like, it really hits me that the phrase structure strong oral tradition is just a sort of a euphemism for talking all day Every day.

[Kelsey McKinney]

I think.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

About this an awful lot about. So Ireland never really had an industrial revolution. So. So like, so going back to the turn of the 19th century.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Perfect.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Yeah.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Let's start at the beginning.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Let's. Let me bring you back to the Spinning Jenny.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Oh my God.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

You know, in England and America and Germany, all these different countries, there was like this moment where industrial action happened and where like all kind of populations were just became into cities and all that kind of stuff. That never really happened in Ireland. Ireland was always just like your workplace is your back garden and there's no entertainment of any kind except for you can walk six miles in the dark to your friend's house to talk shit. And that's. That's like it. And I think that's where all the music stuff comes from. And that's where all this storytelling thing comes from. It really comes from as a lack of anything else to do. Like the, the, the. The two penny strip show is not coming to Ireland. The, like the, the Nickelodeon is not coming to Ireland. What, what comes to Ireland is like going to your friend's house and telling them a story you heard off somebody else who herded off a cow, you know, and you kind of see that as well with Irish people where it's like they never let the truth get in the way of a good story either. So tales be getting tall.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah. Okay. I'm sorry to embarrass you, but your book the Rachel Incident was one of my favorite books that I read last year. I loved it. I thought it was so great. And there's a lot of gossip in that book. And I wanted to ask you just how you think about gossip in fiction, both creating it and what role it plays in stories.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Oh, that's such a good question. So like the Rachel Incident is definitely. It's a book about gossip in many ways. So like in the opening chapter, this character runs into somebody from her hometown, like years and years after she's left, and is kind of reminded of this piece of gossip that existed about her in her hometown that like wasn't true, but she had to live her life as though it were. Yeah, but like, I definitely think that like a frequent thing of like when someone tells you a piece of gossip and then the first thing that you think about is like, how much of this can I change and then put into a novel? And I always do feel as well that like you're far more likely to put. To adopt a situation or a character that you know very little about kind of thing. So you can sort of fill in the gaps in your head. There has to be, like, a gap where intrigue can develop naturally, where you're just like, you know, because if I. If I know my friend and all of her problems and everything about her, then. Then my brain isn't doing that natural thing where it fills in the gap with sort of interesting lies. Um, and so it's never gonna happen. Yeah.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Um, did you bring a gossip for me?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

I did bring a bit of gossip for you. Um, so, you know, I live in. I live in London, which is a place where people are so gossipy, and every single person in London has a story about either the royal family or Matty Healy.

[Kelsey McKinney]

That's. That's extremely funny to me because it's just like, ah, opulence. Ah, trash.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

What's. What side of the class divide are they on in the kind of London social person. And so, you know, obviously I can't repeat any of that gossip here because I'll be hung.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Right?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

And. But so this is a story that I heard at a wedding, and I loved it so much. So let me see if I can relay it to you here, please. Okay. So I. I meet this girl at a wedding, and even as when I met her, she seemed like a kind of a recently recovered shy person, you know? Okay. Like, she's.

[Kelsey McKinney]

I know exactly what you're talking about.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

You know what I mean? She's, like, learned the tricks and things and, like, and she's learned how to. How to do it. But you can tell that, like, it's not something that comes, like, super easy to her. And, like, you could tell with this. This woman that, like, she was like, oh, she was like. So when I was a teenager, I was super shy, and I was like, yeah, I can guess. And, like, I met her and I was like. Immediately, I can see that she was. This is again, filling in the gaps with interesting lies. I can totally see that she was the kind of girl who probably had, like, two best friends in school who she told everything to, but nobody else in her year group knew she existed. You know, kind of thing. Like, and she's, like, super studious and. And just keeps herself to herself and whatever. And in her. I guess what you'd call your senior year in her. In. In her last year of school, her family moves.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Oh, you can't move your beautiful shy child, like, in her final year of school, you're gonna make her make new friends. That's not fair.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Well, precisely, Kelsey. They're not gonna make her make new friends. What they're gonna make her do instead is commute.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Oh, no.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Yeah, I know. Sad. Very sad for our shy girl. Let's just call her Andy.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Poor Andy.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Poor Andy. She used to live right in the middle of the city with all of her friends somewhere in the north of England and. And now she lives in like the countryside. Right. And like she has to get like a 45 minute long bus every day to go to school and. Yeah. So, you know, like, she's getting up at 6. She's getting up in the dark to go to school. She's coming home in the dark. Her senior year, like, sucks. And then one day she is at the bus stop and a car drives up and it is a boy from her year.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Huh.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

And you know how like every, every single year group has like, you know, your, your, your sort of Russian nesting doll of popular kids? And some of them are popular because they're attractive and some of them are popular because they're attractive and rich. And some, some of them are popular and this is the, the smallest nesting doll in the, in the very middle. They're rich, they're attractive, and they're really fucking nice. You know, those people. There's always like two.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Let's call him. What's your favorite English name?

[Kelsey McKinney]

Paul.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Paul.

[Kelsey McKinney]

I don't know. I don't know what names are English. Caroline.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

I thought you were going to say like Edward or something. I don't know.

[Kelsey McKinney]

What are the kings named? Henry. Harry.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

It's Henry. And not only is Henry, like beautiful, nice and rich, he's also like a lord.

[Kelsey McKinney]

This is crazy.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

So teen lord pulls up and is like Porsche or whatever and he's like, beep, beep, get in. I know you're you out of my school. I might as well drive you in. Like, we're, we're from the same place now.

[Kelsey McKinney]

What?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Yeah. So he's like, do you want to lift into school?

[Kelsey McKinney]

I guess this makes sense because lords famously have land. Yeah. You can't have land in the middle of the city.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Yeah. Turns out his like huge country pile is like five minutes from her place, from her like semi detached, like, house in the middle of nowhere. And, and so they. Even though she's the shyest girl in the world, and even though he is hot, rich and nice and a lord, they have this relationship their whole senior year where they're just going to school back and forth an hour every day. They're slowly building up their conversation and their connection every day. And every evening. And then she goes off and she hangs out with her two friends who she loves. And, like, then he goes off with his, like, big gang. And then at the end of the day, they go hang out again in the car, and that's their thing. And when they're towards the end of the school year, he starts opening up to her about some serious stuff. And among the serious things he opens up to her about is that he is adopted. Okay. He's an adoptive teen lord. And like. Yeah. So it's like. Yeah, yeah. He's not like, super public about it, but, like, his family, his parents couldn't have kids.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Okay.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

He's very happy. But he tells her. He's like, you know, he's on the verge of turning 18 and he's like, I get to find out basically about my stuff, like, about my mom and all that kind of stuff.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Oh, right, right.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Yeah. And he hasn't told anybody this. He's only told shy girl Andy, who he gets the car with every morning.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Oh, my God.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Then he goes to the adoption place and he gets his birth mother's name.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Okay.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

And the name is, like the most unbelievable general name you could possibly have. Like.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Right, right. It's like.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

It's Sarah Smith. It's. It's, you know. Right, whatever. Like, insert the most common name you've ever thought of here. And he sort of, like, takes a stab at trying to find her or whatever, but then he kind of gives up and he feels kind of awkward about it and he just like. Yeah, doesn't. And then school ends.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Oh.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

And then they don't see each other every day anymore. No. And I know. And, and, and shy girl Andy is like, I miss my friend. And they. They're texting quite a bit, but they don't have that routine anymore.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Sure.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

And by the way, they're millennials. So this is like 2008. 9.

[Kelsey McKinney]

I guess the Internet exists.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

It's becoming a thing. And so what Andy does is she gets this common ass fucking name, and she essentially looks for every Sarah Smith in England on Facebook.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Oh, my God.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

And she just goes through. And she just, like, is dil. She's a diligent student who's on summer holidays, who's graduated high school, and she's just, like, going through. Going through, being like, hello. This is a bit of a strange question, but in the late 80s, did you give birth to a son and give him up for adoption? Did you? Because I know him. And anyway, eventually she strikes gold and she finds, like, the Sarah Smith.

[Kelsey McKinney]

That is crazy.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Yeah. Like, I know.

[Kelsey McKinney]

It's wild. That she found her.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

It's wild that she found her.

[Kelsey McKinney]

So many hours.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

I have no clue. Like, it's nuts to me that this happened. And so she.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Wild.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

At this point, shy girl Andy has a car of her own, and she. She. She drives over to his house, and she gives him the information, and she, like, logs into her Facebook on his computer, and, like, there's your mom. Like, there she is. Like, oh, my God. I know, I know. And then. And so, like, him and his mom start connecting or whatever, and they said, I set a date to meet or. And then the day comes where they're supposed to meet, and she. He's supposed to go to her. I'm actually getting chills. I'm. I'm in a Sheraton in Frankfurt right now, and I'm giving myself goosebumps. And so they said they set a date where he's gonna drive over to his mom's house and meet her for the first time. And then he says to shy girl Andy, will you drive me?

[Kelsey McKinney]

Oh.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Because he doesn't want to. Want to drive alone, and he doesn't want to go alone. Doesn't want to go alone. And they're driving, and they're not saying a word. It is totally silent in the car. And then they get. They get to the door, and she's. She waits in the car, and she's like, go on. You know. You know, you can go in. And then he walks up to the door, and then he walks back, and he gets back in the car, and he says, I can't go in without you. And then they just. He just holds out his hand, and they walk up to the mom's house holding hands.

[Kelsey McKinney]

I love this movie.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

I love. This is my favorite movie. And Kelsey, Kelsey, they're married and they have a baby.

[Kelsey McKinney]

She's the Lord now. That's so beautiful. You know what? She deserves it. She deserves it. She did the boot work.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

You know, she did it.

[Kelsey McKinney]

She went for Facebook.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

She got a husband.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Wow. It's, like, extremely funny to think about this from the perspective of, like, all the other rich girls who had a crush on him.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Yes.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Oh, God, why is he driving her? Why is he driving her? Just, like, fuming when they get engaged, right?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Like, and, like, especially if, like, no one knew as well, being, like, who even is she?

[Kelsey McKinney]

That girl he drove to school.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Serious. She doesn't even talk.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Wow. Caroline, thank you for bringing me this story. I love it. It's so beautiful. Okay, my story is less happy, more chaos. Do you still want to hear it?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Absolutely. Yes.

[Kelsey McKinney]

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[Caroline O'Donohue]

I'm.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Going to call our friend of a friend today. We're going to call her Jane. And Jane has had like a nice full life. She got married she worked on the early Internet with her husband. She was like a career woman in the 80s, right. Like, big shoulder pads, even bigger hair. She and her husband, they had two kids. They grew up, the kids got married, they had kids themselves. Her husband died, which was terrible. And it was like, very hard. And she hasn't moved on, but she's kept on living. And this whole entire life that she's lived, she lived in one single house.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Okay. Okay.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Do you have any experience, like, living in a place and watching it change around you?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Well, yes, because I've lived in London for 13 years and I was a writer that whole time. It's just like, you find. You find some place that's barely affordable to live where you can get, okay, coffee and then you're priced out within usually about two and a half years. And that's. Yeah. So I have a lot of experience with this. Yes.

[Kelsey McKinney]

That is basically what has happened to Jane, but in slow motion. Right? She moved into this house. It stayed the same. It's like a relic to her taste. Meanwhile, the whole neighborhood has turned over. Right. Her friends moved out. All the cute little houses were torn down. More and more of the cars in her neighborhood are like fancy luxury ass cars. But she's also, like, looking around and she's like, this is crazy. Like, my house is now the smallest and cheapest one in the neighborhood. Like, everything else is concrete and expensive because it's been rebuilt.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

I see. Yes.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And she realized this really concretely because she got a new neighbor.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Okay.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Her new neighbor is named Celeste. Celeste is, like in her 40s. She's beloved by everyone in the neighborhood. And Jane knows this because Celeste used to live in a different house in the same neighborhood. She moved into a different house because she and her husband got divorced.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Oh, okay. So we've got. We've got Jane, who's a widow, and we've got Celeste, who's a divorcee. Glamorous bunch.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Exactly.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Okay.

[Kelsey McKinney]

The reason that Celeste and Charles got divorced is that Celeste wanted that her house to be at 81 degrees Fahrenheit all the time, which is 27 degrees Celsius.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Thank you so much for that, by the way, because I would not have guessed what 81 degrees Fahrenheit was at all. I really appreciate the International edit here. 27 degrees Celsius.

[Kelsey McKinney]

27 degrees Celsius.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

That's fucking crazy. That's mad hot. That's hot, hot, hot.

[Kelsey McKinney]

She was like, I'm just cold all the time. What?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Eat some soup, Celeste. That's not.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And her husband Charles wanted their house to be a normal fucking temperature.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Yeah.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Like not even cold. He was just like, I want it to be not 27 degrees Celsius in here. Do you believe that this is the real reason why they got divorced?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

No. I believe it is endemic to something else in Celeste's personality that is like, unfixable possibly. I feel like, you know. You know, if she's one of these people who like, in all aspects of their shared life together, Celeste comfort is the most important thing, then maybe that's what destroyed their relationship.

[Kelsey McKinney]

I love that theory. This is like. It's ridiculous to be like, we got divorced because she wants our house to be super, super hot. But it's like the only thing either of them ever says, right? Like that is the party line. They're like, we got divorced because of this.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

We're so early in the story and this is so nuts.

[Kelsey McKinney]

I know. Okay, so imagine Jane's house, right? Jane's our widow. And then right on the right of her house is Celeste. Ok. And on the left of Jane's house is a woman named Muffy.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Muffy, right. Sure.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Muffy and Celeste are best friends.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Okay, okay. All right. I see.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And Jane, our old lady, lives in the middle, just watching Muffy and Celeste like walk back and forth to each other's houses, carrying wine, carrying snacks, you know, gabbing, gabbing, gabbing.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Sure, sure, sure.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah. We've already talked about how when you see strangers or people that you only know some details of, you kind of like fill in details that you have made up.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Sure.

[Kelsey McKinney]

What do you think that you might do with this friendship?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Oh, they're in love, obviously.

[Kelsey McKinney]

That's probably what I would do too. I would be like, she left her husband for Buffy, right?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Yeah. Yeah. And obviously like the temperature thing is like a complete lie. And you know, Celeste is gay and I'm happy for her.

[Kelsey McKinney]

I love that premise. In Jane's mind, she's like, Celeste and Muffy are the kind of friends who like, they drink, they watch below deck, they talk about how they wish they could have a yacht. They don't know anything about each other. They don't like each other, actually.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

That's so crazy. Jane's a nutter. I love this.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Jane believes this because she really likes Muffy and she does not like Celeste.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Uh huh.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Celeste is always wearing like one sweater and then she's wearing like another sweater tied around her shoulders because she's so cold. Celeste is like the kind of woman that's always wearing a lot of those like, big bangles and, like, has a really sleek bob.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Oh, okay. So it's giving kind of like a 90s art gallery type of woman.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Totally.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Yes. Okay.

[Kelsey McKinney]

The real reason that Jane doesn't like Celeste, though, is it Celeste will not stop talking about her damn fig.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Excuse me? As in, like, she's got a fig tree or something or is she proud of it? Is that what it is?

[Kelsey McKinney]

Great thought wrong. It's not the fruit. It's not figs. The tree. It is a sculpture, a bronze cast sculpture of a really big fig that is split in half.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

This is so great.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Everything, every detail is more bizarre than the next.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Kelsey, what the.

[Kelsey McKinney]

This is my. I know. Try to. Try to picture this fig, right? It's made of bronze. It's split in half. It's very, very large. Like, think like sculpture garden large. Like, each half of the fig is like the size of a person and it's metal and shiny. And this fig slash artwork is titled the Fruit of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Oh, okay.

[Kelsey McKinney]

It is a quote, statement on gender. Oh, what is the statement? We don't really know. Do you have any idea what this statement could be?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Hang on. Isn't there something quite specific about the way figs are made? That's, like, quite disgusting, right? Like, there's this famous. Like, it's like flies. Wasps lay eggs and die in there or some. Like, it's. It's like, really gross. It's like you never want to eat anything with figs in it again after you've heard it. Not because it's cruel, but more because it's gross.

[Kelsey McKinney]

You think that that is the statement on gender?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

I mean, that's the only thing I've ever heard about figs.

[Kelsey McKinney]

They do look like balls because the fig is split in half and it's kind of around.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

They look like balls. They're big and gold. They're a statement on gender, and they are the knowledge of good and evil.

[Kelsey McKinney]

The real thing is that Celeste, like, this fig sculpture is currently in Charles's backyard. Charles, her ex.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

The man she's divorced. Yes. Because if he's not. Doesn't like his house hot enough. Yes, exactly. Yeah.

[Kelsey McKinney]

So Celeste, like, loved living by the fig. She loved looking at it. She loved when it was, like, reflecting the sun or something. And so she wanted to take it in the divorce, but because it was, like, so heavy. Like, it's made of. It's giant and made of metal. So you need, like, a whole group of guys and, like, construction equipment to move it.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Okay.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Like that Might be why she didn't take it. Or maybe she didn't take it because, like, Charles held onto it forever, like, out of spite. But the fig is at Charles house, and she wants the fig to be with her, okay.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

As is her. Right.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Jane knows all of these things because it's all Celeste ever talks about. And Jane does not care about this.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Is this all kind of feeding into as well, the kind of the yupification of this neighborhood that these are like. Like, Jane is like, I've raised my family here, and, like, they're not my cares and concerns. Your. Your weird modern art divorce problem.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes, exactly. Jane's like, I had real problems when I was younger that weren't. Where is my giant fig? Why isn't it at my fancy house?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Yeah.

[Kelsey McKinney]

So Jane dislikes her neighbor Celeste because of this fig problem and because she is filled with a whimsy that only rich people can have.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Right.

[Kelsey McKinney]

But she likes Muffy, right? Because she's like, muffy is kind. She has a really big laugh, and she never, ever, ever talks about figs.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Such an important quality of neighbor. I know. I now understand your earlier thing because, like, I definitely. I do have that thing where there's these two friends and you think one of them is just a stunner and you love hanging out with her, and the other one, you're like, what? And so then you do invent in your head, you're like, oh, there must be some kind of fairy bargain in place. Or, like, perhaps, yes, charitable work going on.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Fairy bargain, Right. You're like, the friend that I like must have been, like, trapped in a witch's spell in order to be friends with this other woman who I dislike. Jane also likes Muffy because Muffy started dating this, like, younger hot man, and the younger hot man does all of their yard work with no shirt.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Lovely, lovely stuff.

[Kelsey McKinney]

He's, like, sipping from the garden hose, throwing his hair back. He's always, like, hammering stuff. Who knows what? He, like, has a push lawn mower. He's out there for hours. And Jane is, like, a little bit of a horn dog. So she's like, I appreciate this. Like, thank you for having this hot boyfriend for me. Very kind and thoughtful.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Very nice. Love, Muffy.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah. And Muffy reminds Jane of, like, a younger her because Muffy also, like, wants her house to be really nice, wants her garden to be really nice. And in particular, Muffy has a massive herb garden of, like, potted plants that she babies. She, like, brings them inside in the winter. She prunes them every day. She waters them constantly. She like, never lets her young hot boyfriend touch them because they have to be like, perfect.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Okay.

[Kelsey McKinney]

So one day Jane's out. She's on her little morning walk right around the neighborhood. She runs into Muffy. She's like, what's up, Muffy? Like, what's going on with you? And Muffy's like, oh my God. Me and my hot boyfriend are going on vacation to Italy or whatever to be beautiful for two weeks. And Jane in her head is like, that's so sad that your hot boyfriend is leaving and I won't get to see him. But out loud, she's like, that's so nice. I'm so happy for you. Jane is also like, it's August, so it's really hot outside. And she's like concerned because she knows that Muffy loves her herb garden. So she's like, oh, do you want me to water it while you're gone?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Sure. Yeah.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And Muffy is like, oh my God, you're so sweet. But no, I already asked Celeste to do it, so you don't need to worry about it at all.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Okay.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Are you worried?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

I'm worried, yeah. She's a feckless woman. I don't think she's. She's going to. I think she's self involved and she is going to be negligent in her duties.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Jane is like, okay, no problem. But then Muffy goes uptown and like, have you ever watched basil when it like doesn't get watered?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Yeah. I buy it very frequently and I watch it wilt almost instantly if you don't use that whole packet up in the day is gone. Yeah. Is it goes black?

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes. And if it's like outside, it also like just like starts to droop really badly.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Right.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And the leaves like go yellow and then it's like very gross and sad. And it's summer and it's hot and Jane is watching out her window while Muffy is out of town. That within a single 24 hour period, the basil is like wilted over.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Can I just say, this is far too much effort for an incredibly cheap supermarket plant. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's not worth it. It's just not.

[Kelsey McKinney]

If you're Jane, do you go water the basil?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Oh, this is such a tough one. It's a real Sophie's choice because, like, if she lets it die, then she can. Then this friendship that she despises will be over probably. And then Muffy can be her main friend. However, she loves Muffy and she doesn't Want her thing to die. However, Celeste sucks and will definitely take the credit for the living basil.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

But Jane's too classy to say that was me watering it.

[Kelsey McKinney]

So are you doing it or no? Where did you end up?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Me, myself, I hate to garden. I would watch it die. And I'm also full of spite. And I would just, like, now Muffy's my friend.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Jane is also full of spite because Jane is like, you know what? I offered to water it, and Muffy explicitly told me, no. Celeste has got it. And so she watches out her window as the cilantro withers and the mint burns and the thyme becomes crunchy and the rosemary gets all fried and everything burns.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Christ, it's awful.

[Kelsey McKinney]

You're not intervening at any point in this. You're just gonna watch the herb garden turn to dust.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Oh, you know what I would say to Celeste? Listen, the plants are dying. I believe this is your.

[Kelsey McKinney]

You need to go water, though.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

I believe this is your remit, Celeste.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah, I think that's a really good idea. Except that Jane can't talk to Celeste because if she tries to talk to her at all, she just talks about the fake again. So there's, like, no point.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Yeah. And Jane has really had it up to here with the fig. So the.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah. When I first heard this story, I was like, of course you go water the herb garden. But the more I think about it, the more I'm like, no, I'm so petty. And, like, if I don't like the friend that's supposed to water it, like, it's just an herb garden.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Yeah. I mean, if it was a cat not being fed or a dog not being walked, that would be totally different.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Right?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

But ultimately, I don't give a fuck about herbs.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Jane waits. She does not water the garden. It all dies. At the end of two weeks, Muffy comes home, and Jane is, like, petally, like, sitting by the window because she is like, muffy's gonna freak.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Right?

[Kelsey McKinney]

She's like, there's gonna be some kind of blow up. They're gonna yell like they'll never be friends again. And then Muffy will be my friend.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Delicious.

[Kelsey McKinney]

But instead, Muffy just, like, sees the herb garden and then goes inside.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Okay.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And then, like, a few days later, Jane sees the hunky boyfriend out there just, like, pulling out all the dead herbs.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Oh, hunky boyfriend.

[Kelsey McKinney]

So she's like. She's, like, sad. Jane's like, this is very sad. The herbs are all dead. She's like. But also, Celeste has not gone over to Muffy's house at all since Muffy got back. So she's like, maybe. Maybe my evil plan is working.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Yes. So perhaps some cursed text messages were exchanged.

[Kelsey McKinney]

What do you imagine was exchanged?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Hey, babe. Comma. Just checking. Just got back from the trip. Notice that the herb garden didn't seem to get much of a look in this summer. Ooh, I thought you were supposed to water it. Did something happen? No exits at the end.

[Kelsey McKinney]

I love that. I imagine that this is what happened. Yes. Jane has no idea. She doesn't know what's happening via text message, and she doesn't really see either of them out the next few days. So she's like, I don't know what's going on. My neighbors are maybe fighting. Hopefully they're never going to be friends again. But, like, I don't know, she goes for her walk and she sees Celeste. You hate Celeste. Famously. But you want to know what's going on with Muffy? Do you, like, stop and try to talk to her?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Fake as shit. Yeah, 100%. Like, oh, my God.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Hi.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Yeah. Like, muffy's back in the gray. Ain't life grand? How was her trip? I haven't had a chance to catch up with her yet. But you see her all the time.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Damn. Smooth.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Yeah, smooth as eggs.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Jane is like, does not even have time to consider whether she wants to talk to Celeste or not. Because the thing is, you don't have free will with Celeste. Celeste is coming to talk to you. That's just, like, how she is. Because she has things to say.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Sure, sure.

[Kelsey McKinney]

All the things she has to say are about the fig girl. Celeste is like, I've got updates. My ex husband has gotten engaged to a much younger woman, and this woman does not like the fig. Can you believe that? And Jane is like, yes, yes, and yes. This does not stop Celeste. Celeste is like, yeah. You know, he also, like, demanded that I come get the fig from his house and pay him the original cost of it, and that I only have two weeks to do it or he's going to sell it.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Okay, that is. That is harsh.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Jane is like, I don't care. Like, in her heart, she's like, I hate Celeste. I hate this stupid fig. Like, this is not worth my time. She's like, have you talked to Muffy? And Celeste is like, no, but trying to talk more about her fig. And Jaden is like, goodbye, Celeste.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Goodbye, Celeste.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And she goes home.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

How are now? I'm like, how are Muffy and Celeste friends? I don't get it at all.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Jane has forgotten all about this conversation. But at the end of two weeks, suddenly there is a big truck in front of her house with a bunch of big muscly men. And on the back of the truck is the fig on, like, a pallet.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Okay, okay. It's a comment on gender. Okay.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes. And Jane is like, oh, my God, I'm gonna have to look at this fig all the time.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Forever.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Her attention was on the wrong thing. She shouldn't have been plotting about the herb garden. She should have been plotting with the husband about destroying the figs.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Exactly. You got to get it into some kind of, like, metal melter.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Yeah, yeah. Smelt the figs. It's the only thing to be done.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah, exactly. Jane is outside. She's watching this man, you know, greeting the construction workers. He's wearing a hard hat. He has clipboard. He takes the hard hat off, and she's like, oh, my God, hot boyfriend. And then hot boyfriend is pointing not at Celeste's yard, but at Muffy's.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Oh, my fucking God. That's incredible.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Jane is like, this is crazy. She's like, obviously, I'm outside, I'm paying attention, I'm eavesdropping. She watches, like, a forklift, you know, raise the metal fig and start to, like, drive it toward Muffy's house. And at this point, Celeste comes, like, running out of her house and she's like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You have the wrong house. My house is over there.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Uh huh huh.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And the construction workers are like, you know, they're like, looking at their paper. They're like, well, no, like, the address we have is that address. We don't have your address. And Celeste is like, no, no, no, no, no. It's my fig. I picked it out. She's like, you know, rattling off stats. Like it would be on, like, a fucking gallery thing where she's like, the artist is this. He was born here this year. These are the dimensions of the fig. Like, this is the year it was created.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

These are the dimensions of the fig. Yeah.

[Kelsey McKinney]

The construction workers are like, listen, lady, we don't care about your fig facts. We were hired to drop them off over here.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Uh huh.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And then they begin to drive the fig into Muffy's backyard. Muffy bought the figs.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Oh, my God, you devious bitch. Muffy. I love it.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Huge news. I wrote a whole book of beautiful essays about gossip. It's called, you didn't hear this from me. And I'm so, so proud of it, it's about how we use gossip. It's about Britney Spears and West Elm, Caleb and Gilgamesh and Picasso. And it's so, so fun. And I think it's really good. It comes out February 11th in hardback and a sexy audiobook, which I read. You can buy it wherever you get books. You can go to KelseyMcKinybook.com to see all the retailers where you could possibly buy a book from and to buy tickets for the upcoming book tour, which will be really fun and really exciting. That's KelseyMcKin book.com There's like very little that feels better than finding a gift that someone really wants and won't buy for themselves. Recently a friend of mine was staying at my house and in the morning I was like, here's your little coffee. Sit on the couch. And so she was sitting on the couch and she pulled the little blanket on her and she was like, oh my God, what is this blanket? It's so soft. And I was like, thank you so much for asking. It's from Quince. I immediately clocked that she liked it because I was like, oh, this is something she would never buy for herself, which makes it an absolutely perfect gift. Quince lets you treat your loved ones and yourself to everyday luxury at an affordable price. They have Mongolian cashmere sweaters which start at $50. They have 14k gold jewelry, Italian leather handbags and European linen sheet sets. Whatever you're looking for, all Quint's Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands, which is how I got beautiful cashmere throw blanket for my couch that my friend then loved because it was so, so soft. Gift luxury this holiday season without the luxury price tag. Go to quince.com gossip for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order. That's Q U I n c e.com gossip to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com gossip despite wearing a hat every single day all summer long, I do have the skin of a Victorian ghost. Which means that if the sun even finds one little spot of skin that hasn't had sunscreen applied in the last like one hour, it destroys it. And so, you know, after a summer trying to avoid the sun, I still ended up with a little tiny dark spot on my cheek, which is so annoying. But you know, skin changes over time and it can be so overwhelming to figure out the right products for your skin. Which is why we're excited to partner with Apostrophe, the sponsor of this episode. Apostrophe's goal is to help you feel confident in your own skin. Whether you're dealing with breakouts, signs of aging, or acne scarring, Apostrophe will help you love the skin you're in. Apostrophe is an online platform that connects you with an expert dermatology team to get customized acne treatment for your unique skin. Through apostrophe, you can get access to oral and topical medications that use clinically proven ingredients to help clear acne. Simply fill out an online consultation about your skin goals and medical history. Then snap a few selfies, and a dermatology provider will create a customized treatment plan just for you. Apostrophe offers access to prescription treatments for all types of acne, from hormonal acne to facial acne, and even back, chest, and butt acne treat breakouts from head to toe. I famously have only one skincare goal, and it's to make all of my pores disappear and look like a beautiful little doll and extremely hard to achieve by yourself with just, like, drugstore products. So that's why I love working with apostrophe, because, you know, you have access to an expert derm team, and they make you a tailored treatment plan, and then all of it just shows up at your house and you don't have to wait in line at the pharmacy. We have a special deal for our audience. Get your first visit for only $[e-mail] gossip when you use our code gossip, that's a savings of $15. This code is only available to our listeners. To get started, just go to apostrophe.com gossip and click get started. Then use our code gossip at signup and you'll get your first Visit for only $5. Thank you, Apostrophe, for sponsoring this episode. This creates chaos. Celeste is, like, on the phone. Jane assumes she's on the phone with Charles, and Celeste is, like, yelling, right? She's like, you snake. You absolute snake. Like, you know, I only cared about the figs. Meanwhile, the construction workers are, like, you know, checking up on a concrete platform. They poured God knows when for the fig to be on. Muffy comes out of the house, and Celeste tone, like, immediately changes, and she begins to, like, plead. She's like, muffy, you know, I love these. Like, Charles is the enemy. You cannot collude with him. She's like, pick me. Choose me. Give fig to me.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Pick me. Choose me. Give fig to me. Oh, my God. Oh, my. But this really does prove that, like, Jane was muffy's. True friend all along because. Because, like, this is what Jane would do. Like, they're. They're. They're both fueled by spite and nice gardening. Like, that's. And hot men. That's what they share.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes. Muffy is standing with her arms, like, crossed, and she's like, celeste, do you remember what I asked you to do when I went on vacation? And Celeste is like, water your herb garden. And Muffy's like, yes. And you didn't do that. And Celeste is like, yes, I did. I went every night, late at night, and I watered them.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

No, you didn't, you dumb bitch. No, you did not.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And Muffy is like, they all died. And Celeste is like, well, I don't. And Muffy is just like, I can't. Like, I'm not having this conversation anymore. Like, we're done here. And Celeste is like, but what about my fig? Like, I love it so much. And Buffy's like, well, I love figs, too, and I bought the fig. Right this way, gentlemen. And she shows the construction workers where to put them.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Oh, my God. That's so fucking evil. I love it.

[Kelsey McKinney]

At this point, Celeste freaks out. She's like, in front of the forklift, she has to be restrained by the hot boyfriend. Jane is like, this is the most interesting thing to happen to this neighborhood in years.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Huh? Oh, my God. To steal another woman's fig. To steal. And maybe this was. Maybe this was the expression on gender all along, you know?

[Kelsey McKinney]

Wow. That really makes you think.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Makes you think, wow.

[Kelsey McKinney]

After this whole event, the next day, the hot boyfriend, like, sets up a giant tent in the backyard. And Jane is like, this is terrible. Like, now I can't see the hot boyfriend anymore. I have no idea what's going on over there. Right? Like, he's inside the tent.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Oh, no.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And then there's like a week where nothing happens. And this is where Jane realizes she had a. She has, like, a big problem. Because the big fight, this, like, huge blow up fight, happened very conveniently in her front yard at full volume.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Sure.

[Kelsey McKinney]

But also she hears people in the neighborhood talking about, like, Instagram posts, next door posts. And Jane doesn't know how to get to those things.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Oh. Because she's no lady.

[Kelsey McKinney]

What do you think she should do here?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Call her son?

[Kelsey McKinney]

She really wants to know what's going on.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

It feels like Jane is ready to graduate to that part of her life where she is on various social media platforms all day, every day. So now's the time to invest.

[Kelsey McKinney]

I think Jane is like, this is Petty drama. You know who loves petty drama? Teens. So she's like, I'll invite my teenage granddaughter over to spend the weekend. I'll get her takeout food, and then I'll tell her this whole saga, and then she'll probably help me find out what's going on online.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Oh, delicious. I love it. Lovely bonding.

[Kelsey McKinney]

This works perfectly. The teen comes over. She eats her takeout. She's like, well, what's happening now? And Jane's like, I don't know. It's all online and I can't see it. The teen, within, like, minutes has all of this stuff pulled up, right? Like, she has, like, the Instagram's up. She has posts up. She begins to show Jane specific posts about this. The first post she shows is from the artist who made the fig. His widow has posted a photo of the figure with a caption that's like, this fig is by my, like, late husband. And the location of the piece as the private collection of Celeste, last name.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Motherfucking hell. Wow. Wow. I really thought that, that, like, the story was just going to end on Muffy bought the figs, but there's a.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Whole other thing going on now. There's more, baby.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

It's wheels within wheels.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Celeste is posting, like, an endless amount of, like, photos of her fig. Post about how sad she is about her fig. Post about how Muffy, like, stole her fig.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Oh, my God. She spent, like, a year and a half not having that fig. And she was also given a deadline to buy the fig.

[Kelsey McKinney]

I know.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Like, hawk one of your bangles and just, you know, just buy the fig back.

[Kelsey McKinney]

The granddaughter is like, we don't need to look at this page because it's just like, Muffy's boyfriend posting thirst traps. And Jane's like, what's a thirst trap? And then her granddaughter shows her one of the posts and she's like, oh, I know. I understand.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Yes. I. I love this. Thank you. I love it.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Muffy's posts are mostly about her hot boyfriend, but there is also a picture that's like, a flyer for what is titled her herb garden relaunch party.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Oh, my God.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And it has, like, a date and a time, and it has a picture of the fig on it.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

These people are fucked.

[Kelsey McKinney]

These people are fucked.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

These are people, like, it's just like, women in their 40s who were just. Just trading fig and herb drama.

[Kelsey McKinney]

This is what happens when you have too much money, right? Like, it's like, none of these problems are real.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Like, herbs are so easy to buy at the supermarket. Like, even. Even. I think Muffy's gone too far on this.

[Kelsey McKinney]

You do?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Like, I. Yeah. Before, I was like, team Muffy, Boo, Celeste. And now I just think both these l ladies are tapped in the head.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Jane's granddaughter is like, we have to go to the party. We're going to the herb garden relaunch party. And Jane's like, well, we weren't invited. And the teen granddaughter is like, but it's posted on Instagram publicly. Like, we can go. Do you think that that's true? Do you think they can go?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

I'm a little confused slash concerned why Jane isn't being. Why isn't Jane being kept abreast offline? Because it seemed like she was pretty tight with Muffy for a time there. Like, enough so that she wanted to replace Celeste entirely. So, like, it seems like she's fallen out of contact with both of these women and her wider neighborhood. So I'm like, what's. Why isn't. Yeah, is Jane catching some flack that she doesn't even know she's catching?

[Kelsey McKinney]

Jane is like, I'm old fashioned. We're not showing up at this woman's house without being invited to the party.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Sure.

[Kelsey McKinney]

She's like, but I will call Muffy and ask her. And the granddaughter's like, great. So Jane calls Muffy, and she's like, muffy, what's up with this giant tent in your backyard? Because there is a huge tent there. And Muffy's like, oh, my God, I haven't seen you. That's crazy. Like, where have you been? And Jane's like, I've been at my house. Like, I'm. I'm always at my house. And Muffy's like, oh, okay. Well, so sorry I haven't seen you, but I'm having this huge herb garden party. I'm relaunching my herb garden tomorrow. If you want to swing by, I would love to have you. And Jane's like, great, Great.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

I'm going to the relaunch of an herb garden. There was a time when it used to be shocking to be invited to a dog's birthday party. And this is so, like, several rungs.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Below that they go over there. The party is, like, beautiful. The tent has been removed from the backyard, and now Jane can see that, like, a huge transformation has taken place. Like, the new herb garden has been planted. It's, like, twice as big. It has little, like, handmade signs. Muffy has made herby cocktails. There's, like, little appetizers. It's, like, very Lovely little party. And also there is now art everywhere. Like, not only are the figs there and like, lit from below with little spotlights, there's also like a ton of other garden themed art. There's like a giant rosemary sprig and like a concrete trowel sculpture and like all this shit.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Yes. Okay. So she has. Not only has she bought these figs out from under her former best friend who did not tend her herb garden correctly or even at all.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

She has caught flack from the artist's widow, and now she is trying to establish an art collecting brand in order to sort of like, legitimize the fact that she's stolen another woman's figs.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Bingo. All correct.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Oh my God.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Shane is like, let's go stand next to Muffy. Like to her granddaughter. So they're like talking to Muffy, and Muffy is like talking about all of this art with the air of someone who has, like, bought art for decades. Right? Like, she's like, oh, I know all about art. Like, I love buying these things. It's like very much one of those things where she's like, talking about, like, the finances of buying art more than the actual art. She's talking about like, dealers and acquisitions and purchase prices and like all of this stuff.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

All right, okay.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And Jane is just like, what is going on? Like, this is crazy. At this point, Celeste shows up.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Uh huh.

[Kelsey McKinney]

She is dressed beautifully, overdressed, one might say.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Okay.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And she goes up directly to Muffy and she's like, how much did you pay for the fig? I will buy it off of you.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Oh my God. What?

[Kelsey McKinney]

And Muffy is like, this is a party. And no, I don't want to sell them.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Yeah.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And Celeste is like, what do you want for them? Do you want $50,000?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

$50,000?

[Kelsey McKinney]

$50000? $50,000.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

What? Isn't that like a nurse's income? Like that's enough?

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes. It's like more than a teacher makes.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Fucking hideous, disgusting things. They look like balls.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Buffy is like, no, like, I like the figs. I paid for them. I had this whole like, reinforced concrete platform built so that they could sit on it. Like, I'm not selling them.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Uh huh huh.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Guess who else is here at this party? It's Celeste's ex husband and his much.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Younger wife who likes an even temperature. Yes.

[Kelsey McKinney]

He comes over and he's like, celeste, stop it. I gave you two weeks and you didn't buy them. Yeah, like you had the first option. I don't know what you're doing here? And Celeste freaks out. She's like, you stole my fig. You stole everything. And Charles, like, kind of sighs and is like, I don't understand where this is coming from. Like, I'm the one who bought the figs. You never even liked the sculpture.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Excuse me. What? They were Charles's figs. Charles's precious frigs.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Mm. We're almost at the end. What do you think? How are you feeling?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

I feel sick. Feel sick. The amount of money and waste in the story is sick. And it's like. Like, does Celeste even know who she is? Like, she's just. It's like she. She. She had this husband, and she was never the right temperature, and he loved the figs. And then she became fixated. She's like, what's like a year? Over a year she's been just, like, banging on about these figs and how much she loves them and how it is her one desire to get them back, and she didn't even like them that much.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes. Muffy and Jane and Jane's granddaughter are all like, what?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

What?

[Kelsey McKinney]

Like, this woman has been going on and on and on about these fucking figs for a year.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Yeah.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Celeste's ex husband is like. It was only, like, after we got divorced that she started to care about it.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Right. Oh, God.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And Celeste is like, this isn't true. Like, they're going back and back and forth. They are now having this fight publicly, which means that this is the point where we find out that it was not about the house temperature.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Okay, what was it about? Kelsey?

[Kelsey McKinney]

Thank you for asking. It is about the fact that Charles made a series of very, very bad investments. He put most of their money into an eco dance resort, and he also put a lot of money into some kind of omnidirectional treadmill for VR video games. Okay, both of these things sound stupid, because they are. And so neither of them took off. And so the thing is, these people were no longer rich. They were house poor. So, like, when she asked for a divorce, she used her settlement money to buy this new house in the neighborhood, expecting there would be more money down the road. And then there was, like, no more money. So it's not that she ever wanted the fig. The fig was like a pawn. It's like a pettiness prop. Like, she wants it because she wants to sell it to have money to hurt Charles.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Oh. It was never about the figs. Holy crap. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So then how was Celeste trying to get. Trying to give $50,000 to Muffy? When she doesn't have that kind of money, Bingo.

[Kelsey McKinney]

What she was trying to do is figure out how much Muffy paid for it so that she could then get half that money from Charles. So at this point, she turns to Muffy and she's like, just tell me how much you paid for it. Like, did you pay 50? Did you pay 75? Did you pay $100,000? Like, what did you pay for this fig?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Holy fuck.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Muffy's like, oh, no, I. I paid $10,000.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Wow. A real. A real steal these figs.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Celeste loses her mind because she's like, he gave it to Muffy for cheap to get rid of it.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Oh, wow. What a tale. Fuck me. That's so good.

[Kelsey McKinney]

We're at the very end. How do you feel? Whose side are you on?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

I just. I honestly just feel like, like, an incredible magic trick has been, like, pulled on me in that, like, I was looking in the wrong place the whole time. And, like, I thought this was a story of, like, just two riches who, like, had nothing else to do. Who are, like, being petty and funny, but, like, there's so much more.

[Kelsey McKinney]

It's. Charles is broke.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

He's flat broke. And so is Celeste. And they're trying to maintain this weird fucking. It's very Desperate Housewives. It's very, like, turn of the century Desperate Housewives.

[Kelsey McKinney]

It's also, like, Victorian. The loss of a family fortune, right?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Yes. And the idea of the one sapphire in the family kind of. It's. It's so crazy. And they got the artist's widow involved. I know that poor woman is grieving.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Leave her out of it.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Fuck. This is huge.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Whose side are you on? Who do you like still?

[Caroline O'Donohue]

I love Jane. Still? All these other people? Yeah. I don't know. I think that. I think, yeah, Jane should sort of have some kind of a tarred affair with the hot boyfriend. Because I don't like the idea of him being caught up in this. I think he's too pure.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Do you want the final updates I have? Very final.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Yes.

[Kelsey McKinney]

The very final updates I have for you are that after all of this, like, bickering, Jane realized that she was, like, kind of in no man's land between two sides of a war.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Right.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Between Celeste and Muffy. And she kind of realized when this happened, she was like, oh, maybe I didn't really ever like Muffy. Maybe I just liked her hot boyfriend. Right? Like, maybe I didn't even really want to be her friend either. Maybe they deserve each other. And so she's like, you know, What? It's time for me to move. And so Jane sold her house for a huge profit and she moved and she never had to think about any of these people ever again.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

And now Jane is rich.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And now Jane is kind of rich.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

And she can buy all the figs she likes. What a story. So she's just like, I've had it with these hoes. Bye. Like, fuck.

[Kelsey McKinney]

She's like, that's enough. Goodbye to the hot boyfriend.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

God. And those women are just still out there somewhere scheming. You know what I mean? Like, yes, I do think there are people in this world who, like, they can't live unless there's a scheme going. You know, they're like. They're like running some kind of private con within their whole life. But. But, like. But to them, it's not even a con. It's just some kind of weird form of contorted justice. They just think they just deserve this thing. It's so fucked up. The schemes. The schemes.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Caroline, thank you so much for coming on the show. It was a delight to have you.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

I'm so honored. I really think this is up there, like, in. If there was like a normal gossip, like a moma for Normal Gossip.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Like a power rankings.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Yeah. The Noga or whatever. If there was a museum, there would be that chair with the vagina print on it, the bird lamp, and this fig. And I feel so proud to be part of it. Wow.

[C]

Thank you for listening to Normal Gossip. If you have a gossip story to share with us, email us at Normal Gossip Factor. Or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679 GOSSIP. If you love this podcast and want to support us, become a friend or a friend of a [e-mail] you can follow the show on Instagram and TikTok at Normal Gossip. You can follow Kelsey on all social media at McKinney Kelsey. This podcast was produced by Alex Sujan Laughlin, Ozzie Linus Goodman and J. Tol Vieira. Justin Ellis is Defector's project editor. Jasper Wang and Sean Kuhn are Defectors business guys. Alex Sujan Laughlin is Defector supervising producer. Tom Ley is our editor in chief. Abigail Segal is our intern. Dan McQuaid runs our merch store, which you can find at Normal Gossip Store. Tara Jacoby designed our show art. And thank you to Rachel Hampton, Brandon Jensen, Sabrina Imler, Dave McKenna, Chris Thompson, Heather Chen, Ray Ratto, David Roth, Catherine Hsu, Jasper Wang, Israel Daramola and Patrick Redford for your help on this season. Thank you to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber based media company. Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia. Normal Gossip is hosted by Kelsey McKinney. I'm Carrie and remember you did not hear this from me.

[Caroline O'Donohue]

Radiotopia from prx.