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- [00:01]
A
Hey, it's Alex Sujong Laughlin, and I am here with the Rachel Hampton of Normal Gossip. Hello.
- [00:06]
B
Hello, Alex.
- [00:08]
A
And I'm also here with Patrick Redford of Only if youf Get Caught. Hi, Patty.
- [00:12]
C
Howdy. How we doing?
- [00:13]
A
So we're all here together because the annual Radiotopia fundraiser is upon us, and we are still trying to reach 1500 donors by the end of the year. So Radiotopia is the network that sells our ads, that does our marketing. Rachel, what does it mean to you to be a part of an independent network?
- [00:31]
B
I mean, I think it means mostly, and most importantly to me, a lot of editorial freedom. I love that. I'm not beholden to anyone. When we're scheduling how many seasons we do every year or how many episodes we want to make, we get to make the show that is the most sustainable for us and that allows us to make the best version of the show possible. Huge.
- [00:57]
A
I totally agree. I think that something that I have really appreciated about Radiotopia is that they give us total control over what advertisers we say yes and no to. So, like, in the past, we've had advertisers that we've worked with who then maybe we hear from our audience that, you know, they're not so into them, and we can go back to Radiotopia and say, hey, we. We don't want to do that anymore. And I think not a lot of podcasts have that kind of autonomy over who is advertising for them, which is really cool.
- [01:28]
B
Definitely. And it means that the things that we do advertise, we actually tend to enjoy. Shocker.
- [01:36]
A
Patrick, tell me, what does being independent mean to you?
- [01:39]
C
Well, this is maybe a sort of oblique answer, but, like, in sports media specifically over the past few years, everyone is, like, underwritten by a gambling company. And you can just see when there's these big stories, you know, cheating adjacent about gambling and sports that, like, so much of media is, like, compromised. And it's such a breath of fresh air to, like, not have to deal with that, to just know that, like, whatever we put out there is, like, our own thoughts. There's no, like, intervening layer of owners or advertisers. And hopefully that comes through to the viewer. Like, hopefully you see that, like, you know, there's a certain level of honesty that we can bring to this.
- [02:12]
A
So if you love this show and you want shows like ours to exist and thrive, help our podcast neighbors at Radiotopia by donating at Radiotopia fm. Donate. Thank you so much.
- [02:26]
C
Free audio post production by alphonic.com.
- [02:38]
B
Hello, and welcome to Normal Gossip. I'm your host, Rachel Hampton, and in each episode of this podcast, we're going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. I'm going to remind y' all that the Normal Gossip has got a little break coming up. We will not be publishing during the weeks of Christmas and New Year, but have no fear, we will be back in your fees with Fresh Gossip within the first full week of 2026. So our last episode for this year, not this season, but this year, is on December 17th, and then we come back on January 7th. All right, that is all the housekeeping for today. Now time for the gossip. For those of you who don't skip this part, thank you so much. Shout out to y'. All. But you've definitely heard me or Normal Gossip's co founders, Kelsey McKinney and Alex Sujong Laughlin, talk about the company that we all co own, Defector. There are so many reasons why Normal Gossip would not be possible without defector. But I want to talk about something specific that I haven't really spoken about publicly, which is how scared I was to take over this show as a black woman. We have been talking for basically a whole year at this point about our peaceful transition of power from Kelsey's hands into mine. And yes, we will continue to use that phrase because if you have spent any time in the audio world or like the real world in general, you're aware that transitions of power aren't always peaceful. Those transitions tend to be even dicier when you introduce a black woman into the mix. Hello? Hi, it's me. Like most podcasts, we have some insight into our audience demographic data, which means that I was pretty aware when I took over that the majority of Normal Gossip's audience is white. And I'm gonna be so honest here and say that as a black woman, that scared the living shit out of me. Most of my black listeners out there will have heard the phrase twice hard for half as much, which refers to the fact that as black people in America, we have to work twice as hard to give half as much as our white peers. What that phrase doesn't quite capture is that even when you do work twice as hard, even when your work is just as good as your white peers, half the white people who interact with it are gonna find a problem with it because you, as a black person, dared to do it. I'm not even gonna talk about the psychic damage of that. That's from my therapist. Instead, I wanna talk about the fact that most media companies, especially in an anti DEI era, in the middle of an anti woke backlash, have zero clue how to tune out the racist noise and instead make it the problem of the black person that they hired. When I say that Defector is one of, if not the only, media company that I would be willing to put myself into this position for, I mean it. And not a small part of that comes down to today's guest, Defector's VP of Revenue and operations, Jasper Wang. Around Defector, we just called Jasper our business guy. But even before I joined Defector, I knew he was so much more than that. In a lot of ways, Jasper is the glue that holds our small little company together. And that is because at the end of the day, he understands that the people make the company and that for those people to do their jobs, they need to feel supported. It is pretty rare as a black woman to encounter someone, let alone a business guy, who doesn't question my instincts. And from the moment I joined Defector, I knew Jasper was in my corner. I think the whole normal gossip team would agree that he has been a huge silent partner in the transition that we've undertaken this year, which is why I am so, so, so honored to be able to be here for his normal gossip debut. Jasper, hello. Thank you so much for joining me. Hello.
- [06:16]
C
Thank you so much for having me. This is like the best day of my life.
- [06:19]
B
I'm so excited that you're here. I think this might be one of the most exciting moments for not just us, but our entire company. Like everyone I've told that you're going to be on the show is like, I can't fucking wait.
- [06:33]
C
Everyone knows I'm a yapper at this point. After five years of working together, they know I can yap. I can yap with the best of them.
- [06:38]
B
You are a champion yapper. Have you always been this way? Is this a skill that you developed? What's your relationship with gossip?
- [06:45]
C
I have always loved gossip. Like I would say my mother was actively anti gossip because she staunchly avoided gossiping with other parents about children, which I respect. But I would say as I've gotten older and my friends kids start going to school, I do not follow her ethos. I am interested in the children's gossip. I have always loved gossip. At every stage of my life, I have had many platonic female friends and I don't think there's a causal relationship there, but there is an interplay there which is connected to the reality that gossip is generally not coded for straight men and boys.
- [07:23]
B
Yeah, 100%.
- [07:24]
C
You have had a couple of straight men on this show. I must be the first one to just say, like, I love gossip.
- [07:30]
B
No, that is true. So many of them are so scared of gossip. They're like, I'm scared of it, but also I want it. And it's like, baby, there's no reason to be scared.
- [07:38]
C
Yeah, it's just like a social norming thing. And like, I can remember I was thinking about this question. I was like, you know, at various points in my life, I can remember hanging out with the fellas, starting to share some gossip, and then somebody being like, bro, why are you telling us this? And I was just like, all right, well, you know, let me text some girlies, like my real friends, who are gonna wanna hear about this.
- [07:57]
B
I'm trying to share with you an experience. What do you mean?
- [08:02]
C
Yeah, this is the proto male loneliness epidemic, man. It's just like, wow. What do you want? You wanna talk about what, stocks? You wanna talk about football? Like, we're watching football. We don't have to talk about more football.
- [08:12]
B
Jasper, I already thought that you were so smart, but now I know that I was right, that you're so smart.
- [08:19]
C
I will tell you that I also can remember various moments where I have been told to shut up about the gossip. And then later on, one of the boys will sidle up to me and be like, but I want to know the rest of the story. Like, how did that end? There's the instinct there. It was just like, not allowed.
- [08:37]
B
Yeah, men are so scared of gossip. They're like, talking about another person is against the law. And it's like, okay, if you're not talking about other people, then what are you talking about? The weather. The weather also involves people. What are you even doing here? What's the point of being alive not to talk about other people? I could talk about this forever, but a little birdie told me that you have some gossip for me. And you know me, you know what I like. So I have a feeling that you've brought me something specific for me and I'm real excited about it.
- [09:09]
C
Let me tell you this, I think this story is gonna be the first normal gossip thing to end up on R Finance.
- [09:15]
B
A subreddit. I never visit, but now will.
- [09:18]
C
I mean, don't go to any subreddits. It's none of our business. Okay, so before defector, you know, I was a management consultant for the better part of a decade. And I have had lots of friends who were consultants at various firms. Now, in the early 2000 and tens, I had a friend from college, we will call her Maura. Maura was a junior analyst at another consulting firm, and she got assigned to a project working for a hedge fund. So if I told another business person, like in a vacuum, a hedge fund has hired a consulting firm, they would be like, sure, that makes sense.
- [09:51]
B
Okay.
- [09:52]
C
However, Mora got assigned to a special internal project. The hedge fund was headquartered in Stamford, Connecticut, and they were about to open a second office in New York. But a lot of the senior people at the firm, they lived in Stamford for many years and they were concerned. They were disgruntled about sometimes having to do the morning commute into New York.
- [10:11]
B
How long is that commute?
- [10:13]
C
It is not that long, all told. But to smooth it over with the senior people, the hedge fund decides to. They're going to hire a consulting firm to figure out the fastest way to commute to New York. Do you want to guess the various transportation options that were in consideration?
- [10:30]
B
I'm sure public transportation was not one of them, even though I'm sure that that is an option available.
- [10:36]
C
Metro north is an option.
- [10:38]
B
Okay. Those little coach buses. I've seen companies bus their people back and forth, so I'm assuming that's also an option.
- [10:47]
C
Yeah, I mean, in this case it was like private black car for each person, but yes, just some sort of a company subsidized transport. And then the last two options or four options. So Metro north block car. And then three and four were speedboat and helicopter.
- [11:03]
B
Speedboat, helicopter.
- [11:05]
C
I swear to God, they are people with too much money. The firm makes billions of dollars. They make millions, tens of million dollars a year. They want to really know comprehensively what is the right answer. So they will go pay a consulting firm hundreds of thousand dollars to go figure this out for them. For several weeks, Maura would get up early, she would get her ass out to Stanford by 7am and then she would take the various transportation options back to New York. And then at like 6pm, she would then take those transportation options out to Connecticut. And then she would time the trips and she would like, check the variants and see what potential roadblocks would happen and what it cost after several weeks. Do you want to guess what her recommendation was?
- [11:47]
B
Is it Metro North?
- [11:48]
C
It is. Take the fucking Metro north like everybody else.
- [11:51]
B
So wait, you're telling me your friend was taking helicopters, like, on a consistent, like multiple helicopters a day? Cause you said commute there, commute back. So she would take two helicopters in one day? For a week.
- [12:04]
C
So for that period of a couple weeks, every day, she would just take something different and she would just like, rotate through and time it and price it. And so, yeah, like, she rode on the helicopter, she rode on the boats at the end. The Metro north is just consistent. The express train from Stamford to Grand Central is like 50 minutes. And it is very predictable. It does not have delays that often. It's pretty steady. So you can work on the way down. And then like, you're in midtown, you can go anywhere you want.
- [12:32]
B
Yeah. And you're at Grand Central Station, which is a delight.
- [12:36]
C
Exactly. It's beautiful.
- [12:37]
B
And it is. It's so much better than Penn Station. Wow. How much would something like this cost? Like, how much does it cost to hire someone to price this out?
- [12:48]
C
Something in the six figures to get a whole consulting team to work on this for a couple of weeks. No surprise. Maura quit being a consultant pretty soon after that. Like, she is a midwife now.
- [12:59]
B
I love that for her. I love that path for her. People have. There are crazy jobs out there. Sometimes I'm just reminded of how many crazy jobs there are. Well, now I have some gossip for you. Are you ready?
- [13:12]
C
I'm so ready. I'm so excited. I'm so scared. Let's go.
- [13:17]
B
The holidays are almost here, and if you still have names on your list, do not panic. Uncommon Goods makes holiday shopping stress free and joyful. With thousands of one of a kind gifts you can't find anywhere else, you'll discover presents that feel meaningful and personal. Never rushed or last minute. Uncommon Goods looks for products that are high quality, unique, and often handmade or made in the U.S. many are crafted by independent artists and small businesses, so every gift feels special and thoughtfully chosen. The hard part about getting a gift from Uncommon Goods is that sometimes you just want to keep it for yourself. And that is exactly what happened to me. I got this little necklace that has all of the major arcana tarot cards, little miniature versions. It's so cute. I'm obsessed with it. And I bought it to give it as a gift, and, well, it's mine now. So Uncommon Goods has something for everyone, including yourself. So don't wait. Make this holiday the year you give something truly unforgettable. To get 15% off your next gift, go to UncommonGoods.com gossip that's UncommonGoods.com gossip for 15% off. Don't miss out on this limited time offer. Uncommon Goods were all out of the ordinary. We are smack dab in the middle of Recording for season nine of Normal Gossip. It's overlapping with holiday time, which is a busy time of the year for everyone. So this is just a super busy time for me. I've been trying to find ways to make my morning routine more efficient. And that's why I've really been looking forward to my little cup of Everyday Dose every morning. Everyday Dose is my new coffee ritual. It is the same coffee you know and love because Lord knows I need my caffeine. But it's also enhanced with collagen protein. Gotta get those gains Nootropics and functional mushrooms and my gut and brain have never been happier. It takes 30 seconds to make and I never run out of the ingredients that I need. Everyday Dose is Coffee plus benefits. They combine high quality coffee with powerful ingredients like lion's mane and chaga collagen protein. These fuel your brain and boost focus and give you clean, sustained energy all day long. It tastes just like coffee without the downside. No crash, no jitters, just clean, sustained energy. Right now, get 61% off your first coffee plus starter kit, free peppermint mocha creamer plus for the holidays and over $100 in free gifts plus enter for a chance to win $100 cash or get your entire order refunded. Visit everydaydose.com gossip or use code gossip at checkout.
- [16:07]
Today's story is about tulips. Before we get into it, what are your feelings about tulips? What do you know about them?
- [16:16]
C
They caused a big stock market crash.
- [16:19]
B
What?
- [16:20]
C
The Dutch tulip stock market crash.
- [16:23]
B
This is not anything that I thought you would say that is incredible.
- [16:27]
C
Otherwise, my feelings about tulips are it's one of, you know, like three or four flowers I can name off the top of my head. So, you know, a top five flower for me. Definitely.
- [16:37]
B
Wow. Beautiful. Our friend of a friend did not know a whole lot about tulips when this story started. In fact, she didn't know a lot about gardening at all. Our friend of a friend today is named Erin, and Erin is a traveling nurse. So as I'm sure you can imagine, Erin has moved around a lot, and not just in adulthood. Her dad was in the army, so she spent her entire childhood moving around. She has not lived in a house with a yard since she was 16. And at the time of our story, she's in her late 30s, so she has a whole lot of capital B, capital F, big feelings about owning a home that no one can ever make her move out of.
- [17:16]
C
That is the elder millennial problem man we're all sitting here, our parents are still asking us why we're renting. That's just how it goes.
- [17:22]
B
Yeah. And like an elder millennial, unfortunately for Erin, she has not had the best of luck with the whole owning a home thing. Not least because she's had to move three times in the last 18 months because of her job. From North Carolina to Maine to Minnesota. But it is in Minnesota that it seems like Erin's dream of buying a home might finally come true. The hospital Erin is working at is so understaffed that her six month contract was almost immediately converted to a full time position. Her husband Andy's new job pays significantly more than his last one. And then there's the fact that Aaron and Andy are not trying to buy a home in the midd of the pandemic for the first time. Jasper, you're a businessman. Am I correct in remembering that the housing market sucked for buyers for a lot of 2020 and 2021?
- [18:10]
C
I mean, the housing market has sucked for a long time. Prices just go up and up. But yes, 2020, 2021, 2022 was crazy bananas. So good for Aaron and Andy. Yeah.
- [18:21]
B
Aaron and Andy's two prior home buying attempts in North Carolina and Maine had been unsuccessful. But third time, she's the charm. And there must be something in that Minnesota soil, because after putting in offers for three different houses, their third offer is accepted.
- [18:38]
C
All right.
- [18:40]
B
And this was the house that they actually really wanted anyway. It's close enough to the hospital that Erin can bike during the fall and spring and take the light rail during winter. She's not taking a speedboat to work. So the house that Erin and Andy get, it's a three bed, two bath. It's on the older side like it was built in the 1920s. But both the kitchen and the bathrooms have been recently renovated. Most of the important appliances are new, including the water heater. The garage is even heated, which seems important for Minnesota during the winter. The neighborhood is super cute. The streets, they're all tree lined. It's kind of perfect. Is there anything like totally non essential that you have to have in your home? Like one of the things that sold me on my apartment, besides the fact that it is rent stabilized, is that it has a window in the bathroom. I hate being in a bathroom that has no window. I'm just like, I'm trapped in our household.
- [19:40]
C
My wife ended up getting fixated on having at least a fake chimney so we would have a fake fireplace. So we currently have an electric fireplace, which is Amazing, actually. So I do love that.
- [19:52]
B
Wow. I love a fireplace. Well, for Erin, this is the backyard, specifically the garden, because for the past two decades, the closest Erin has ever come to having a garden is having, like, planter pots on her little slab of concrete behind her townhouse. And when she was younger, Erin had planted gardens in some of the houses she lived in as a kid, but they had always moved before she could harvest anything. So having a garden means a lot to Aaron. And her new backyard is not massive. A lot of it's taken up by the deck. But the remaining yard is more than big enough for the garden of Aaron's dreams. And before they even close on the house, Erin is already planning out what sort of greens and veggies and fruit she's gonna plant. And luckily, the closing process goes fairly smoothly until Erin and Andy's real estate agent tell them that the previous homeowners are requiring a wet sale signature to close. I'm assuming you know what a wet signature is.
- [20:50]
C
It's just not an E signature. They're like, we have to meet up and actually, like, get a ballpoint pen and write it down.
- [20:56]
B
Correct. Minnesota state law actually allows you to close on a house using DocuSign. Like, they call it Remote Online Notarization, or RON. But the previous homeowners are like, we want a wech's signature. They want this done at the house with them present, along with Aaron, Andy, and both realtors, plus a notary. This is in 2023, so this is not necessarily a health risk. But what do you think of this request from the previous homeowners?
- [21:25]
C
It's just. It's very specific. Like, everything has moved to E signature. I can't remember the last time I needed to notarize something since 2020. And Ron is a perfectly, you know, Minnesota name for a system that works for everybody. So they should just do the Ron.
- [21:42]
B
They should. Yeah. Our friend Erin is not a fan. She is like, why can we not just do this online? She's tired of living week to week in an Airbnb. She wants to buy furniture and little baskets to carry around the garden. Every day that passes is a day that Erin is not puttering around with a pair of shears and a little trowel. And it's taking forever to find a time that works for all of them, which I'm sure you understand as someone who's tried to schedule a dinner for more than four adults, impossible. So Erin is immediately anti the previous homeowners, who are called the Millers. Her husband Andy is also not really thrilled about the whole wet signature thing, but he doesn't have a lot of feelings about buying a house because his parents didn't convert his childhood bedroom to an office until the day he got married. I. So he's like, I've always had a home.
- [22:38]
C
Must be nice.
- [22:39]
B
Yeah. He's like, the Millers probably have their own big feelings about selling this house, and it's only an extra week in the Airbnb and we can use it to shop for furniture, right?
- [22:49]
C
No. Everybody is paying way more money. The holding cost of holding onto a house for longer than you need, the closing costs get dragged on the Airbnb. Honestly, if they're. If they were going to wait for this, I'd be like, you have to split the cost of my Airbnb for the next week that I have to stay in.
- [23:04]
B
Whoa.
- [23:05]
C
Everything is up for negotiation.
- [23:07]
B
All right, well, Aaron does not think of this. She's like, fine, I guess we'll buy furniture. She's not looking forward to meeting the Millers in person, though, not least because the only time that worked for everyone was a Saturday afternoon. Like, a perfect sunny Saturday afternoon that Erin could have been spending in her garden. But whatever, it's fine. What kind of vibe would you expect the Millers to have?
- [23:29]
C
Honestly, a sort of a we saw you from across the bar and we like the way you look vibe. Like, what the hell do we have to meet in person for? Like, truly, why do you have to see me physically? I don't know. Maybe they're very physically attached to this house and want to say goodbye to it and, you know, give you a real talking to about how you have to take good care of it.
- [23:47]
B
So Aaron, who, if you'll remember is an army brat, immediately clocks Mr. Miller as ex military. He has a crew cut that is so precise, it looks like he goes to the barber with a ruler.
- [24:02]
He's kind of giving the general from Avatar, the movie with the blue people. Despite the fact that he is at least in his 60s, he is absolutely jacked. And he's wearing khakis on a Saturday and his shirt is tucked in.
- [24:16]
C
I'm imagining Sean Penn in one battle after another.
- [24:20]
B
I think that's a perfect reference. Um, his wife, Mrs. Miller, is total, complete opposite. Like, she's giving Coastal Grandmother a combination of Diane Keaton from Something's Gotta Give and Oprah in every video that she posts from her garden with her little basket. Okay. And it's Mrs. Miller who tells them that they're actually not moving that far, they're just downsizing now that Mr. Miller is retired. And Mrs. Miller always wanted to to live in the big city of downtown Minneapolis, so they bought a condo just 15 minutes away. Mr. Miller looks less than thrilled about this. And it's not until later that Aaron and Andy find out why. But before we get to that, I wanted to ask, are you someone who reads every word of a contract? Like, did you actually read your lease?
- [25:10]
C
I read every word of a contract unless I have a lawyer reading it. A thing that I am wet signaturing. Absolutely. I'm gonna read every single word.
- [25:19]
B
So here's where I admit that I am more like our friend of a friend.
- [25:24]
C
Okay.
- [25:24]
B
I fully got a cap before I checked my lease to see if I could pray.
- [25:29]
C
Joel.
- [25:30]
B
Apparently I was supposed to notify my landlord first.
- [25:36]
C
This is why Ciara said I could be judgmental of you during the episode too. Okay, I see it now. I understand what's happening.
- [25:43]
B
It turned out fine. I'm in my apartment and it's great.
- [25:45]
C
And your cat is there.
- [25:46]
B
Exactly. So it turned out totally fine. And this is how Erin feels. She's like, it's gonna turn out totally fine. And she's been through the home buying process before, and the first few times, she had, like, read every single, like, permit and agreement in the closing papers, and then she, like, wouldn't get the house. And all of her friends are like, it's so many papers. No one actually reads them. It's gonna feel bad, but you just sign them all and you just don't worry about it. Their realtor had assured them that the contract was standard, and Andy had promised that he'd read the whole thing. So Aaron's like, I can just sign an initial. Her hand is cramping by the end. It's okay, though. Cause the Millers hand over the keys and Aaron is officially a homeowner. It's not until Aaron and Andy get back to their Airbnb, though, that they see that they actually have an email from the Millers. The subject line is tulip care and keeping. And included as an attachment is a hand drawn diagram of the backyard, including the deck, and the location of all the plants already in the garden. Most prominently marked on this map are the tulips. So two important things to know about tulips, they bloom from early spring to early summer, and they're bulb plants like garlic, which means that you don't have to replant them. And also that if you're looking at a field of tulips, in, like, December, it just looks like mulch. Which is why Erin had not noticed that half of the area that Erin had planned to have for her garden is filled with tulips.
- [27:25]
C
Oh.
- [27:26]
B
The Millers are one of those couples that have, like, a joint email account, so. So Aaron and Andy don't know who sent this email until they get to the bottom of it. I want to ask you what Miller do you think sent this email?
- [27:39]
C
That is definitely Barbara Miller. You named her Barbara Miller? Yes. Barbara and Glenn. That's what I'm going to call them in my head.
- [27:47]
B
That's their names now. Barbara and Glenn. To Aaron's shock, and maybe yours, it is Mr. Miller.
- [27:53]
C
Oh, wow.
- [27:53]
B
Glenn emailing about the tulips. Glenn.
- [27:55]
C
Glenn contains multitudes.
- [27:57]
B
Okay. Mr. Miller writes that the tulips growing in what is now Aaron's garden are not just your average grocery store tulips. These are the pride of the community garden. They are a crossbreed between two different varietals. It took eight years to perfect. These tulips have won multiple prizes at the Minnesota State Fair. And Mr. Miller writes he would really appreciate if Aaron and Andy didn't undo any of this hard work. So he includes care instruction for the tulips, most of which are just like, basic gardening tips. And he's like, wow, isn't this great? Your garden's already started. This is not Aaron's response.
- [28:37]
C
If I were looking on the bright side, I would understand what Andy was saying. Like, Aaron, you have not actually had a garden for many decades now, and so it is nice to have a head start a little bit. It actually, from that description, the fact that you don't have to replant them, sounds like tulips sort of do have an advantage. On the other hand, it's a lot of pressure, and surely you are about to tell me about some sort of a contractual clause that is going to make it like, light meddling to, like, actually serious, legally binding meddling.
- [29:09]
B
I can't confirm or deny that Aaron is like, how dare he? She's like, why was this not mentioned during the hour we just spent signing documents together?
- [29:28]
Famous Amos. It's a brand synonymous with chocolate chip cookies. It's also the creation of my dad, Wally Amos. When he passed away last year, I set out to understand how he became one of the most famous black men in America and how his life and our family unraveled. From Vanity Fair, this is Tough Cookie, the Wally Famous Amos Story, available wherever you get your podcasts. Not to brag, but I think I am a pretty great gift giver and that is because I never give someone something that I would not want myself.
- [30:09]
It does make it hard to give the gift away sometimes though, I'm gonna be honest. And that's what happened with my Quint's order. Everything is so soft and well made. I'm seriously tempted to keep it all for myself. And the thing is, I am. I literally bought a pair of gloves for my mother and I'm keeping them because my hands are cold and I'm going to buy her another pair later because they didn't cost that much because Quints has your whole list covered at some great prices. Mongolian cashmere sweaters for $50 when you would normally pay $200 or more. They're Italian wool, work directly with trusted factories so they can maintain high standards for both craftsmanship and ethical practices. And by cutting out the middlemen and markups, Quince is able to pass those savings straight to you. Find gifts so good you'll want to keep them with quince. Go to quince.comgossip for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. Now available in Canada too. That's Q u I n c-e.com gossip to get free shipping and 365 day returns. Quince.com gossip did you know there's an online cannabis company that ships federally legal THC right to your door? And they found a way to combine THC with carefully selected functional ingredients to target nearly every mood and health concern you can think of. I'm talking about Mood.com's incredible line of functional gummies. And you can get 20% off your first order@mood.com with promo code Gossip. Listen, you can find gummies to just get you high pretty much anywhere these days, but Mood's Functional Gummies combine premium federally legal THC with targeted botanicals to help you get into the perfect mood, usually in as little as 15 minutes, and everything ships discreetly right to your door. No dispensary lines, no awkward conversations, just better days and nights delivered to your doorstep. Best of all, not only is every Mood product backed by a 100 day satisfaction guarantee, but as I mentioned, listen. Get 20% off their first order with code gossip. So head to mood.com, find the functional gummy that matches exactly what you're looking for and let Mood help you discover your perfect mood. And don't forget to use promo Code Gossip when you checkout to save 20% on your first order. Does your freezer look like a crime scene of forgotten leftovers. Mine definitely did until I found Butcherbox. Butcherbox delivers top quality, responsibly sourced proteins right to your door. No mystery meat, no sketchy sourcing, just better options at your fingertips. For nearly a decade, Butcherbox has let the industry with meat and seafood that is antibiotic free, hormone free and independently verified. I created a custom box over at Butcherbox because I have been trying to find different meats to cook. I realized that I kind of fell into a rut of always eating salmon or chicken. So obviously I included salmon and chicken in my box. But I also got filet mignon and cod and salmon scallops and shrimp. And it's been really fun finding different ways to use these meats that I'm less familiar with. I also love that Butcherbox is a certified B Corps, which means that they're committed to high standards from how the animals are raised to how their team supports workers and reduces environmental impact. As an exclusive offer, our listeners can get free steak in every box for a year plus 20% off your first box when you go to butcherbox.com gossip that's right, your choice of filet mignon, New York strip or ribeye in every box for an entire year plus $20 off your first box and free shipping always. That's butcherbox.com gossip don't forget to use our link so they know that we sent you. I swear to God. Winter arrived in New York overnight, like one day. It was basically the end of the summer and now it is actually cold outside. I don't know how that happened and I feel like I'm not prepared for it. I still haven't even taken my winter clothes down. My home is not winterproof. That's why I am so excited to be partnering with Wayfair. Wayfair helps you get everything from bedding and linens to decor for every room in your house super, super quickly. I just bought multiple sets of curtains from my bedroom from Wayfair because I realized that part of the reason my room was so cold is because I was not actually covering the windows. Who knew? So now I got these lovely heavy blackout curtains in this gorgeous like gray blue linen. I'm so excited to hang them with the toolkit that I also got from Wayfair. Wayfair is your one stop shop for everything you need this holiday season. You can get last minute hosting essentials, gifts for all your loved ones and decor to celebrate the holidays. For way less. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair Every style, every home.
- [35:24]
By the time Erin and Andy move into their new house, it is already November. So they're kind of like, there's nothing. We're not going to go digging around right now anyway. And there's so much to be done inside the house. That whole winter is Erin and Andy's HGTV era. They've got Pinterest boards, they're putting up wallpaper, they're painting. They're learning how to use different drill bits. They're rediscovering how expensive rugs are. We love it. Except for the fact that throughout that first winter in their new house, Mr. Miller keeps emailing them about the tulips in December. He's like, the weatherman said, there's a hard frost coming this weekend. Don't forget to cover the garden with mulch.
- [36:07]
C
That's the whole time of Minneapolis. Minneapolis in December and January and February. That's. It's a hard frost that whole time.
- [36:15]
B
Exactly. And Aaron had also already done this. She's preparing her garden. She didn't need his help.
- [36:21]
C
She's a nurse. She can follow directions. She understands keeping things alive.
- [36:25]
B
And then Mr. Miller In March is like, have you started adding compost to the flower beds? A few weeks after that, he's like, what sort of rabbit mitigation system do you have in place? Cause apparently rabbits love tulip bulbs. How would you handle this guy?
- [36:41]
C
I would thank him in very increasingly curt ways of, like, thanks. I was on it. I got it. I understand your concern, and I do not need your hovering over my shoulder.
- [36:54]
B
Yeah. Aaron is at the point where she's like, what if I just went outside and dug up every single one of those tulip bulbs in the backyard? She's like, I think we should just tell this guy to fuck off. But Andy is not worried at all. He's like, I can manage this guy. He's probably just lonely. And Andy doesn't want to make things awkward, because one thing I forgot to mention is that even though the Millers move downtown, they still have a lot of friends in the neighborhood. So it's not uncommon to see them in a coffee shop or at the community garden. And Aaron's husband, Andy, is conflict avoidant. So Andy's like, I got this. Don't worry. You send Mr. Miller's email straight to Spam and I'll handle him. You don't even have to think about it.
- [37:41]
C
Sweet. Conflict averse. Andy fitting right In. In Minneapolis, from what I understand.
- [37:47]
B
Midwestern knives.
- [37:48]
C
Oh. We might run into them at a coffee shop one time in the next three months, and therefore I have to keep up appearances. Okay, great.
- [37:55]
B
Do you believe Andy when he says that he's got it handled?
- [37:58]
C
No, not at all.
- [38:00]
B
You say that so sadly.
- [38:02]
C
Well, again, we foreshadowed that Andy was the one who was supposed to read the contract, and so I already don't believe in him when he says he's going to stay on top of the details. So, yeah, I think this is going to go sideways because Andy can't handle this situation.
- [38:15]
B
Aaron's working 12 hour shifts at the hospital at this point. So she's like, you know what? Fine, you handle it. But then she's like, if that man tries to come over to see the tulips or whatever the fuck, it's gonna be a problem. Aaron's like, I grew up around military guys. You give them an inch and they take a mile. If you let him in, we will never get rid of him. Also, the history of American imperialism. Think about it.
- [38:39]
C
Oh, yes, military men, that is. It's not a metaphor for anything. That's just like, you know how the US army wants you to behave? Only interpersonally.
- [38:47]
B
Andy's like, totally fair. I don't want our home to be invaded either. But he's like, but think about all the tulips we're gonna have. It'll be like when we went to Amsterdam for our honeymoon. And the thing is, unfortunately for Erin, Andy is right. We hate to see when a man is right. Aaron sends Mr. Miller's emails to Spam, and he entirely disappears from her life. And before Aaron even has a chance to plan her own garden, the tulips start blooming in the backyard. And they're, like, absolutely stunning. Like, Erin cannot help smiling whenever she sees them. Do you have any concerns? As of this moment, things are going pretty well.
- [39:22]
C
Things sound great. We can get through a whole normal gossip episode where things just keep going swimmingly. That's what I believe is gonna happen in this episode.
- [39:31]
B
In late May, when the tulips glory is starting to fade, Aaron's at work. She's on her lunch break. She's checking her personal email. When she sees an email that has been forwarded to her by Andy. And all she needs to read is the word tulips in the subject line and Miller in the email address before she's calling Andy, she's like, what is this? I thought you were handling this. And Andy's like, I know, I know, but you seem like you really didn't want him to come over. Uh, and, well, did you read the email? And Aaron's like, I did not read the email because you promised me I would not have to deal with this man anymore. Nandy's like, can you please just read the email? So Erin reads the email, and honestly, it's probably the best for everyone that she is at work when this is happening. Cause the email is actually several emails dating back to a week and a half ago when Mr. Miller had asked when he could come over to harvest the tulip bulbs as promised. Aaron's like, promise? What promise? Nandy's like, just keep reading.
- [40:35]
C
That's not a promise. That's a threat. There was a threat at some point in the past.
- [40:39]
B
So Erin keeps reading. Andi had very politely responded like, I'm not sure what promise you're talking about, but unfortunately, we are doing some landscaping in the garden, so it is not fit for company. But I am more than happy to harvest some tulip bulbs for you and drop them off. It would be no trouble. Does this seem like a fair compromise to you?
- [40:58]
C
That does seem like a fair compromise. That is a good job by Andy, maintaining boundaries and trying to hold the line here. I am wondering, I don't really know how gardening works. So is this sort of like, if he harvests the tulips, he is now out of your hair forever, like, his tulip operation now go somewhere else? Or is this, like, actually setting a precedent that every spring I'm going to show up and harvest some tulips? Like, I would do some Googling around about just, like, what goes into harvesting tulip bulls.
- [41:33]
B
Aaron is also kind of in the same place. She's like, begrudgingly, like, that was a good solution. But she's like, you should have told him to fuck off. I told you about these military guys. Nandy's like, can you please just finish reading the email? So finally, Aaron gets to the final email in the chain, which is from Mr. Miller, and which reads, while I appreciate your generous offer, it is essential that my tulips are harvested with the correct technique to ensure viability. I will be there on Saturday, May 13th, at 0900 to harvest my 130 bulbs of tulips.
- [42:08]
C
130 bulbs? Oh, shit.
- [42:10]
B
Okay, Mr. Miller then continues. I sincerely hope you two are willing to honor the agreement you signed, which, if you recall, makes reference to the Minnesota doctrine of implementation that ensures us free access to the premises for the express purpose of harvesting our property. View link for clarity. Thank you for understanding and your cooperation. See you Saturday.
- [42:33]
C
Andy, Andy, Andy. Here's the thing. There is also a way to go about skimming contracts, right? Like, there are clauses where it's like, we promise to hold harmless and, you know, if we go into litigation, it's in New York courts. Like, yeah, sure, skim those things. If you see something that is like, link here, like weird Minnesota statute that you don't otherwise know, like, you have to actually read those things. Okay? Come on, Andy.
- [42:59]
B
Have you ever heard the phrase doctrine of implements before?
- [43:03]
C
I. I'm going to be honest, I'm not even sure what that word, the word that you're saying sounds like. It is a noun, but I do not know to what that is referring.
- [43:11]
B
Also, Aaron in the same position, she's like, what the fuck is this? And she might have heard of it if she had read the contract. But listen, Glass House is over here. I can't really be talking. So Aaron's like, what the fuck is the doctrine of implements? And Andy's like, based on the legal document he attached, it's something about crops. So Aaron opens the legal document that Mr. Miller had attached to his email. She reads the phrase farm tenants right to enablements, and then immediately closes the document before going to Google, where she finds a Wikipedia page that states that the doctrine of imblements operates to guarantee the farmer's right to reap and carry away the fruits of his labor, even if he loses title to the land on which they are grown.
- [44:00]
C
All right, I know this is my coastal elite perspective, but this is some, like, daylight savings ass. What? Why do we bend over backwards for the farm lobby bullshit? Okay, You've lost title indeed. Like, what do you mean? Like, that is. That is how this country works. All right? You know who owns that land? Sorry to be too capitalist about this, but, like, those are. We do operate in a capitalist society and those are what the laws are, I guess. Unless we carve it out for the.
- [44:29]
B
Farmers, which we do very often.
- [44:31]
C
That's right. The government's going to buy some soybeans here also. It is rhyming with that big time.
- [44:38]
B
So Aaron reads that the doctrine of implements usually pertains to tenant farmers who lose access to the land they were leasing before harvest.
- [44:48]
C
Okay?
- [44:49]
B
And Erin's no lawyer, but she's like, we bought our house. I'm paying the mortgage every month. Wouldn't that make the property ours? What would you do at this point?
- [45:01]
C
First, let me just backtrack and say, I. I support the Tenants rights here. I did not know what I was talking about. Now that you explained more to me. All right. I am on labor side. People should be able to harvest the fruits of their own labor. So let me just back up, let me just say that.
- [45:19]
Hold on. I started saying some stuff about capitalism and I just want to walk that back gently.
- [45:24]
B
Okay, that's real. That's real.
- [45:27]
C
I already told this whole story about finance and hedge funds. Like, I gotta, I gotta make sure people understand what side I'm on here. Okay.
- [45:33]
B
No, it's true.
- [45:34]
C
Okay. My actual answer here is I would figure out how to get in touch with a lawyer who actually knows Minnesota laws. So, you know, it's not like, call a friend of a friend who's in law school. Like, I think you sort of have to start paying up to figure out what this is.
- [45:50]
B
Yeah. Erin and Andy are on the same page and they're like, we've already paid somebody related to this. So they decide to email their realtor. So they forward all the emails that Mr. Miller has sent along with Aaron's research on implement laws, and the realtor responds like, this is bullshit. There is nothing about this in the contract. And even if there was, the doctrine of implements wouldn't apply here since your backyard is not a farm. Aaron. She's victorious. She's like, I finally have the green light to tell this man to fuck off. Which I have been wanting to do since November. And it is almost mid May at this point. She's got months of pent up garden related rage years if you count her childhood trauma. So Erin sits down, little clickety clack keyboard to write an email. She's like, we have reached out to our realtor for guidance because quite frankly, we feel blindsided by this request. Our realtor confirmed to us that there is no mention of tulips in our contract. Furthermore, the doctrine you cite above does not apply to this situation. We are the legal owners of this property, including the tulips. And while we don't appreciate the way you've engaged with us, it's clear how much these tulips mean to you. So as a courtesy, we'll be consulting with our Realtor as to the best way forward. Perhaps you can pick up a few bulbs from her office.
- [47:16]
C
Good for Aaron and Andy.
- [47:17]
B
Aaron sends this email and is like, you know what? Actually I'm a benevolent bitch. I could have gone harder.
- [47:22]
C
I gotta say, that is a real professional email. I think that is appropriately aggressive. I think the trouble here is I appreciate the realtor not Being mealy mouthed. Right. I could have imagined the realtor being like. Like, this is not my business. Like you. You go ask somebody else. On the other hand, realtors are not lawyers. And so I don't know that I believe the realtor when she says this is bullshit. And respectfully, my mother. My mother is a realtor. So I'm not. I'm not dissing realtors writ large. I'm just saying her legal acumen is not why my mother is a good realtor. Okay. It's more about like a friendly demeanor and like good customer service. Like, that's not what this is.
- [47:59]
B
Keep that in mind for a little bit later. But before we get to that, do you think Mr. Miller will agree that Aaron is a benevolent bitch?
- [48:07]
C
Again, I have Sean Penn in my head. And so no, I think he is going to escalate in retaliation.
- [48:14]
B
Yeah. Mr. Miller is like, the best way forward is for me to come get my 130 tulip bulbs on Saturday at 0900. And then he's like, do not harvest a single bulb without myself supervision. It is a highly technical process. Andy is like hyperventilating at this point. He's like, what are we gonna do if he actually comes here? Did you see how big that man is? Aaron's like, this is why you should have told him to fuck off in November like I told you to.
- [48:47]
So what options do you think our friends have here? Let's assume they don't wanna involve the cops.
- [48:53]
C
Look, on one end, you could very well just let him show up and do the tulip stuff again. It's not like he is gonna go rifling through your stuff in your basement. Like he just wants to go around back and just get the stuff out. Yeah, but that is capitulating rather easily.
- [49:12]
B
No, it's true.
- [49:13]
C
So I don't know, you know, on the other end of the spectrum, just like digging it all up and dumping it out in front of the garden. So when he shows up, he just sees a bunch of dead tulip bulbs? I don't think that is out of the question either. You know, there's probably some middle ground here that is better than either of those options, but I would not blame them for going in either direction.
- [49:32]
B
Yeah, luckily for our friends, they don't have to make that choice. Because a couple hours after Mr. Miller's last email, Erin gets a call from her and Andy's realtor who's like, you're not gonna believe this. Apparently the Miller's real estate agent had gotten in Contact with her and the Miller's real estate agent had been like, my client has just got in touch with me about some tulips. And then he's like, I had no idea what Mr. Miller was talking about. So I talked to my colleague. And this is the moment that Erin and Andy learned that halfway through their home selling process, the Millers had switched real estate agents. Their first agent had gone on maternity leave. During the switch of the second one, the Miller's very specific request about harvesting the tulips in May had gotten lost.
- [50:18]
C
Oh, so it's not in the contract.
- [50:20]
B
It's not in the contract.
- [50:22]
C
All right, that's not their fucking problem then.
- [50:26]
B
Apparently, because Andy kept replying so nicely to his emails, Mr. Miller had been operating under the assumption that there was a mutual understanding about the tulips. This is why he'd gotten so upset. He thought that Aaron and Andy had just decided to keep them for themselves. Aaron and Andy's real estate agent is like, Mr. Miller is very embarrassed and he wishes to convey his deepest apologies.
- [50:47]
C
Okay, here's the thing. Glenn Miller, I've said it, the whole story is a stand up guy. Okay? I have never. Play the tape back. I have never said a negative thing. I've never implied anything so true. Except that Glenn Miller, as a military man, very upstanding. All right? Highly ethical.
- [51:06]
B
The American military that we famously love and adore.
- [51:08]
C
That's right.
- [51:09]
B
Yes. We are almost at the end of our story. Do you think there are any villains here?
- [51:15]
C
Honestly, everyone is behaving reasonably well with that misunderstanding, even the realtors. I'm like, yeah, handing off stuff when people go out on leave, that's tough. Somebody should have caught it. But, you know, it happened. So I'm very pleased to hear that. Nobody is acting really out of pocket here.
- [51:32]
B
Yeah. This development softens Aaron's feelings towards Mr. Miller. She's like, listen, I'm a nurse practitioner. I get it. You spend more than three years working on something and you just go a little bit crazy. So fine, so she and Andy, they email the Millers. They're like, we appreciate the apology. And then they extend what I think is a very kind offer, which is they offer to harvest half of the tulip bulbs and leave them out on Saturday morning at 0900 hours.
- [52:00]
C
Okay. They're gonna harvest 65 of the tulip bulbs.
- [52:03]
B
Bulbs. And then you did that math so fast.
- [52:06]
C
That's right, baby. I'm in charge of your company's finances. I gotta divide 130 by half.
- [52:11]
B
Okay.
- [52:12]
C
But the other 65 tulips are just gonna be. They're keeping them. They're letting.
- [52:17]
B
Yeah. Because they're so pretty.
- [52:18]
C
Oh, yeah, right. That's right. Aaron came around on liking the tulips. Okay, that's actually.
- [52:23]
B
That's great.
- [52:23]
C
I love that.
- [52:24]
B
Yeah. The Millers accept, and the handoff goes really smoothly. Like, Mrs. Miller comes by herself to pick up the tulips, and she only takes 30 of the bulbs, even though Aaron and Andy had dug up 65. Mrs. Miller even apologizes for all the trouble. She's like, I'm so sorry about my husband. I thought getting him into the city would make him less obsessed with these tulips, but you should not have any.
- [52:50]
C
More trouble with him, Barbara Miller. Also, I've never said one negative word about Barb. Okay?
- [52:58]
B
Nope. Barb Miller, Barb and Glenn.
- [53:00]
C
Barb and Glenn. They're my people. And now they've left you with 100 beautiful tulips. That's great. Yeah.
- [53:07]
B
Yeah. And Barb Miller leaves Aaron and Andy with her number just in case any other trouble comes up. This does end up coming in handy almost immediately, because a few hours after Mrs. Miller picks up the tulips, Mr. Miller sends an email like, this is less than a quarter of the bulbs. Where are the rest? Aaron immediately on the phone with barb. And then 10 minutes later, she and Andy receive another email from Mr. Miller, who says, I was informed by my wife that the correct amount of bulbs were obtained. Thank you for your attention to this matter.
- [53:45]
And that's the end of our story.
- [53:48]
C
All right. No villains. Everyone's behaving.
- [53:52]
B
No, see, you said halfway through that nothing. That it wouldn't end well.
- [53:58]
C
It ended great. And you know what? I was maligning Andy. That's another person who. I will admit I did say some negative things about Andy, but.
- [54:06]
B
And you know what?
- [54:07]
C
He did read the contract.
- [54:08]
B
He did. It's true. Did he remember whether or not this was referenced in the contract? It's unclear if he read the contract.
- [54:15]
C
That's a good point, because he did not immediately say, I read the contract. And it's not in there. He was like, oh, shit, I'm in trouble. I did skim some of it.
- [54:22]
B
Exactly. He didn't even control f implement.
- [54:28]
So Andy. Who knows what's going on?
- [54:31]
C
Who knows? Andy is a nice Midwestern man. He's doing his best to try to hold Aaron up, like.
- [54:35]
B
Okay, Piers.
- [54:38]
Well, thank you, Jasper. That was a delight.
- [54:41]
C
I'm so happy to have heard it. I'm so happy it worked. Out for everybody. I'm so thrilled to be here today.
- [54:48]
B
Thank you for listening to Normal Gossip. If you have a gossip story to share with us, email us@normalgossipefector.com or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679 GOSSIP if you love this podcast and want to support us, become a friend or a friend of a friend@supportnormalgossip.com youm can follow the show on Instagram and TikTok ormalgo Gossip. You can follow me on all social media. Eydanae H E Y Y D N A E this podcast was produced by Sierra Spragley Ritz and Jay Tolviera. Our audio engineer is Samantha Gatzic. The co creators and dowager queens of Normal gossip are Kelsey McKinney and defector supervising producer Alex Sujong Laughlin. Justin Ellis is Defectors Projects Editor. Jasper Wang and Sean Kuhn are Defectors business guys. Tom Le is our editor in chief. Dan McQuaid runs our merch store which you can find at normalgossip store. Tara Jacoby designed our show Art thank you to Brandi Jensen, David Roth, Katherine Shue, Serena Embler, Chris Thompson, Dave McKenna, Patrick Redford and Ray Rato for your help on this season. Thank you to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber based media company. Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia. I am your host Rachel Hampton and remember you didn't hear this from me.
- [56:06]
C
Radiotopia.
- [56:09]
B
From PRX.