New England Stolen Valor with Tobin Low

Summary

Normal Gossip Podcast Episode Summary

Title: New England Stolen Valor with Tobin Low
Host: Kelsey McKinney
Guest: Tobin Low
Producer: Alex Sujong Laughlin
Knowledge Cutoff: October 2023

---

1. Introduction to the Episode

In this episode of Normal Gossip, host Kelsey McKinney welcomes back Tobin Low, an experienced editor from This American Life and former co-host of the queer podcast Nancy. Tobin shares insights into his evolving relationship with gossip, especially in the age of remote work.

Notable Quote:

• Tobin Low [02:21]: "Hey. I am so happy to be back. Truly thrilled."

---

2. The Evolution of Gossip in a Remote World

Tobin discusses how working remotely has heightened his craving for gossip, reflecting on the lost dynamics of office culture that previously facilitated casual information exchanges.

Notable Quotes:

• Tobin Low [02:41]: "If anything, I feel like starved for gossip a little bit."
• Tobin Low [03:13]: "If anyone wants to send me anonymous. Just stuff, you know, DMs are open."

---

3. Exploring the "Greatest Feeling"

The conversation shifts to a unique experience where one senses something amiss about a person without immediate evidence, only to later confirm those suspicions. Tobin elaborates on this phenomenon, likening it to an adrenaline rush when the "gut feeling" is validated.

Notable Quotes:

• Tobin Low [04:31]: "When you meet somebody, you catch a bad vibe and you don't like them, but you can't put your finger necessarily on a concrete thing."
• Kelsey McKinney [05:19]: "It is like the rush of adrenaline is so good."

---

4. The Gossip Story: New England Stolen Valor

Kelsey and Tobin delve into a fictionalized gossip narrative titled "New England Stolen Valor." The story centers around Brian and his girlfriend Christy, who navigate their relationship and community dynamics during the early months of the COVID-19 pandemic.

Key Plot Points:

• Brian's Obsession with Lobster: Brian deeply admires Lawrence, a local lobster supplier, to the point of placing significant trust and reliance on him.

  Quote:

  • Tobin Low [06:43]: "Like, the way straight men admire other straight men."

• Introduction of Jax's Fish Scam: When restaurants close, Lawrence directs customers to his cousin Jax to purchase fish directly. However, inconsistencies arise as Christy discovers that the supposedly fresh fish are identical to frozen tilapia from big-box stores.

  Quotes:

  • Kelsey McKinney [28:22]: "One can only eat so much fish."
  • Tobin Low [36:53]: "If I'm Christy and I have the time in the world right now, all the time, I'm going to Amazon. I'm buying a wig and a trench coat. I'm headed to Big Box Store, and I am camping out in that fish section, waiting for evidence."

• Community Investigation: Brian and Christy, along with their community, conduct blind taste tests and experiments to uncover the truth about Jax's fish offerings, leading to the realization that Jax has been selling counterfeit frozen fish under the guise of fresh, local produce.

  Quotes:

  • Kelsey McKinney [43:01]: "So their pod is like. Because now this other couple is in on this, right? They're like, we're devoted to this fish mystery."
  • Tobin Low [49:06]: "I mean, I think it's pretty undeniable after such a, you know, a well executed experiment. In my mind, he's guilty."

• Confrontation and Resolution: When Brian confronts Jax, Jax abruptly disappears, leaving the community to grapple with the deceit. Meanwhile, Lawrence admits to past scams but assures improvement, culminating in a harmonious albeit altered community dynamic.

  Quotes:

  • Kelsey McKinney [56:11]: "So he texts Lawrence the lobster man. And he's like, lawrence, a lot of shit has been happening."
  • Tobin Low [54:14]: "Honestly. Again, broken brain. Congratulations, Jax. A perfect crime."

---

5. Reflections and Insights

Tobin reflects on the intricacies of small community dynamics, the allure of supporting local businesses, and the challenges of maintaining trust. The narrative underscores themes of trust, deception, and the human desire for meaningful interactions, especially during times of isolation.

Notable Quotes:

• Tobin Low [58:42]: "Like, maybe the fresh fish was the scam we solved along the way."
• Kelsey McKinney [59:05]: "Yes, no, no. We're almost at the end. How do you feel?"

---

6. Conclusion

The episode wraps up with acknowledgments and thanks to contributors, followed by sponsorship messages. Kelsey and Tobin express their appreciation for the engaging conversation and the shared storytelling experience.

Notable Closing Quote:

• Tobin Low [59:32]: "Listen, I will come back whenever you send up the Gossip bat signal."

---

Key Takeaways

• Impact of Remote Work on Social Dynamics: The shift to remote environments has intensified the longing for traditional office gossip, emphasizing the role of informal interactions in professional and personal relationships.

• Trust and Verification in Small Communities: The fictional story illustrates the delicate balance between supporting local businesses and the necessity of verifying the authenticity of products and services, especially in times of crisis.

• Human Need for Connection and Drama: Even amidst global turmoil, the narrative highlights the inherent human need for engaging stories and connections, which can sometimes lead to complex interpersonal dynamics.

---

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

1. Tobin Low [04:31]: "When you meet somebody, you catch a bad vibe and you don't like them, but you can't put your finger necessarily on a concrete thing."
2. Kelsey McKinney [05:19]: "It is like the rush of adrenaline is so good."
3. Tobin Low [36:53]: "If I'm Christy and I have the time in the world right now…"
4. Kelsey McKinney [43:01]: "So their pod is like. Because now this other couple is in on this, right? They're like, we're devoted to this fish mystery."
5. Tobin Low [49:06]: "I mean, I think it's pretty undeniable after such a, you know, a well executed experiment. In my mind, he's guilty."
6. Kelsey McKinney [56:11]: "So he texts Lawrence the lobster man. And he's like, lawrence, a lot of shit has been happening."
7. Tobin Low [54:14]: "Honestly. Again, broken brain. Congratulations, Jax. A perfect crime."
8. Tobin Low [58:42]: "Like, maybe the fresh fish was the scam we solved along the way."
9. Tobin Low [59:32]: "Listen, I will come back whenever you send up the Gossip bat signal."

---

This episode masterfully blends insightful conversations with engaging storytelling, encapsulating the essence of Normal Gossip by exploring quirky, relatable narratives that resonate with listeners navigating their unique social landscapes.

Transcript

[Alex Sujong Laughlin]

Hey there, it's Alex. You may have heard at the end of our episodes, the phrase Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia, but maybe you don't know what that means. The media industry is kind of garbage right now, and it is harder than ever for independent creatives to own their own work, get paid for their work, and to make a living off of their work. Radiotopia is trying to make that possible for more independent creators. They're really great partners for us and we have been so happy to work with them. Every year, Radiotopia does a fundraising drive, and right now we have a goal of reaching 2024 donors, and maybe one of them is you. Your donations in the fall fundraiser go into marketing, ad sales, technology, and it also makes it possible to bring on new shows in the future. So maybe your next favorite podcast is just around the corner. If you are a Normal Gossip or Defector subscriber, that is different. If you donate during the fall fundraiser, you'll get a link to a curated list of all Radiotopia producers favorite things. As a token of thanks, I included something in there. You will never guess what it is. If you're listening to this episode right now, you are already supporting the work of Normal Gossip, Defector Media and Radiotopia. But if you want to take that one step further, donate to the Radiotopia Fall FundRaiser, visit Radiotopia FM, donate to learn more and add your name to the list of awesome listeners who support independent podcasts. Thanks.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Hello and welcome to Normal Gossip. I'm Kelsey McKinney, and in each episode of this podcast, we're going to bring you an anonymous morsel of gossip from the real world. I am thrilled to welcome back to the show Tobin Low. Tobin is an editor for this American Life who manages a team of producers, pitching, reporting and structuring stories. Before coming to this American Life, he also co hosted Nancy, a show about the contemporary queer experience, and also served as a producer for Radiolab on the first season of More Perfect. His work has appeared on Marketplace, Studio360 and the Codebreaker Podcast. Tobin, welcome.

[Tobin Low]

Hey. I am so happy to be back. Truly thrilled.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Oh my God, we're thrilled to have you. If you listen to the podcast, you may remember Tobin from season two, episode five, personality of a Tan Wall, or from our San Francisco Live show. Tobin, has your relationship with gossip changed at all since the last time you were on this podcast? Like that was more than two years ago now.

[Tobin Low]

I don't think so, if anything, because I now, as a lot of people do like truly work remotely and from home. If anything, I feel like starved for gossip a little bit. Just the office culture, the, like, being around, seeing people so regularly culture. Like, I feel like I'm missing out a little bit, let's say. Oh, but you know, we're getting through it. If anyone wants to send me anonymous. Just stuff, you know, DMs are open.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah. Do you have any methods for obtaining gossip since you are stuck at home?

[Tobin Low]

I think there's a lot of like, non sponsored zooms. Do you know what I mean? Just like.

[Kelsey McKinney]

No, no, I don't know what you mean.

[Tobin Low]

In the way that like, zoom has taken over so much of people's professional lives with, like, you're going into a zoom for like a meeting. Like, yes, I think that there is now such a thing as like an off the books zoom with people, you know, like whoever. Just to be like, can we catch up and can you tell me what's really happening?

[Kelsey McKinney]

Okay, so you're talking about like an unsponsored zoom being the equivalent of being like, can you meet me in the kitchen to talk about this in your office?

[Tobin Low]

Exactly, Exactly. Exactly.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Wow, I love that. So you're proactively seeking the gossip that the office can no longer bring you?

[Tobin Low]

I think so. I think I'm, you know, I'm thirsty and I'm, you know, finding those oases in the middle of the desert. I started the metaphor before I knew where it was going.

[Kelsey McKinney]

I think it worked. Great. Beautiful. I was told that you brought a gossip for me. Is that true?

[Tobin Low]

I did bring a gossip for you. So I guess I'll start by saying you must be familiar with the greatest feeling in the world.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Oh, no.

[Tobin Low]

Which is when you meet somebody, you catch a bad vibe and you don't like them, but you can't put your finger necessarily on a concrete thing. And then a little bit later, you get confirmation that that person is bad.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Oh, my God.

[Tobin Low]

And you're like, I knew it.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes, this is it. That really is like a such a top fucking tear feeling. Right. Like, truly, sometimes people are like, can I talk shit? And I'm like, yes. And then they're like, okay, here's the name. And I'm like, oh, my God, thank God, right? Like, I have been starving for years for whatever this is. And like, I don't care if it's this person left you on Reddit dms. I need evidence for the feeling I've already decided is true 100%.

[Tobin Low]

It is. It's like the rush of adrenaline is so good.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Oh, my God. Yes. Incredible feeling.

[Tobin Low]

So my story is a little bit about that feeling.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Oh, my God, I love this. For me, I wish we had, like, a catchy name for that. Right. For being, like, proven.

[Tobin Low]

Oh, like a German word that.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah, exactly.

[Tobin Low]

Okay. So this goes back to once upon a time when I was the co host of a queer podcast. And I guess I would say, like, one of the things I miss about being, like an F list queer celebrity. Ish. Like, you know, just like a queer person. Of note is that you would get so much gossip and tea over, like, notable queer people who was actually nice, who was actually not so nice.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes.

[Tobin Low]

Like, 100% access to that world was very interesting. So I will say, once upon a time, we had a guest on the show.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Okay.

[Tobin Low]

And it was the thing that I was saying before where we caught a vibe. And I would say, this segment was fine enough.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Sure.

[Tobin Low]

But we just walked away and we're like, that didn't work.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah.

[Tobin Low]

Like, something was off. And I'll say right now, don't go. Try and find it. We actually ended up not running it.

[Kelsey McKinney]

So. Nice.

[Tobin Low]

Like, you're not gonna find it in our catalog anywhere.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Good clarification.

[Tobin Low]

Yeah. But part of the reason that we decided not to run it was just like, ugh, like this feeling about, like, the vibe of this was off. So cut to probably, like, at least a year later. Okay. And excellent. I am interviewing a small business, a queer owned small business.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Okay.

[Tobin Low]

And we're just talking about, like, what it is to, like, run this, you know, this thing that they're doing. And they start talking about, like, well, you know, one of the unfortunate things is that, you know, we're tiny, but sometimes these celebrities will reach out and they'll be like, can we get free swag? And we have to be like, no, you know, we're a small business. Like, this would mean nothing for you to just, like, support us. And then sometimes they come back with like, well, this would be great exposure for you.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Like, it's really shit.

[Tobin Low]

Like, that kind of energy.

[Kelsey McKinney]

I just, like, it is the 2000s now. We are not working for exposure. Like, that's not a thing.

[Tobin Low]

Yes.

[Kelsey McKinney]

You just want free shit.

[Tobin Low]

Right? Right. So they were like, that's icky.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes. Especially within your own community. Like, yeah, steal from Amazon. Who cares?

[Tobin Low]

Right.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Do not steal from the locally owned, adorable queer business.

[Tobin Low]

I know it was truly cuckoo bananas when they were saying this, like, that this happens to them. And again, like, a lot of time had passed, so I don't Know why? But I just had a gut feeling. And so I was like, if I say a name of someone who's done this to you, will you tell me?

[Kelsey McKinney]

Oh, my God.

[Tobin Low]

And so I said it, and they cackled. They, like, lost. They thought I was a witch.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Oh, this is like that. The feeling you must have had is like how I imagine it must feel to hit a home run. Right? Like, it's just like, oh, shit. Right. Like you've done it. That's crazy.

[Tobin Low]

Yeah.

[Kelsey McKinney]

But you were right.

[Tobin Low]

I was right. That was we. And we felt so vindicated after that. Like, I went back to my team afterwards and I was like, good call, everyone. We did the right thing.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes. I think part of what makes that feeling so good is, like, it is a reminder to trust yourself. Right. Because you're like, I was right all along. Right. Like, this feeling that I trusted was right.

[Tobin Low]

Yes.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And that is really a great feeling.

[Tobin Low]

Yeah.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And there's nothing like a shared enemy, right?

[Tobin Low]

Yeah. Yes.

[Kelsey McKinney]

I'm now like, I have so much shit to say, but we can't say any of that right now. Wow. Thank you for bringing me that gossip story. I loved it so much.

[Tobin Low]

I'm so happy to have brought it.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Do you want to hear the story that I have for you?

[Tobin Low]

I would love nothing more.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Normal gossip is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. You chose to hit play on this podcast today. Smart choice. Make another smart choice with Auto Quote Explorer to compare rates from multiple car insurance companies all at once. Try [e-mail], progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Not available in all states or situations. Prices vary based on how you buy. Today we're in the Northeast.

[Tobin Low]

Okay.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Think like L.L. bean and lighthouses. Long summer days, long winter nights.

[Tobin Low]

Beautiful.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And we're in a town that's, like, kind of dead in the winter, but in the summer is full and, like, touristy. It has lots of great restaurants, shopee shops, et cetera.

[Tobin Low]

Gotcha.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Okay, this is where our friend of a friend, we're going to call him Brian, lives. And Brian cannot wait for summer. This dummy drank, like, one Allagash White in college and was like, I have to move further north.

[Tobin Low]

This is my entire personality now.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes. He's like the kind of person, you know, the people that, like, are not from the south, but then they go to an SEC school for college, and then they're like, college football is my personality. And it's like, sweetie, that's not a personality. That's a whole section of the country's culture.

[Tobin Low]

Yes. Yes. I feel like the Final evolution of this type is a person who moves to England for a couple months and comes back with an accent.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes, the Madonna problem. Exactly. So this guy Brian, he moves to the northeast. He loves it. He loves living up there. And the thing he loves the most is lobster.

[Tobin Low]

Okay. The side thing is that I recently cannot, like, had a revelation of like, oh, lobsters are bugs. And now I can't take anything besides that. And they really gross me out.

[Kelsey McKinney]

They are bugs. Kind of like crabs.

[Tobin Low]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry, continue.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Brian loves lobster. He's like, from June to December when lobsters are in season. Lobster is his whole personality. Like, he's doing New England stolen valor constantly.

[Tobin Low]

Okay.

[Kelsey McKinney]

He loves lobster so much that he has like a lobster guy who gets him fresh lobsters.

[Tobin Low]

Oh, my God. And I'm sure he doesn't shut the fuck up about this guy either.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Never, not once has he been quiet about this guy. Right. And the guy knows, like, different kinds of lobster. He catches them fresh. Right. Like, he's obsessed with the guy. Do you have anything that you feel this passionately about and. Or any important guys in your life?

[Tobin Low]

If I do, I am sheepish about sharing it. Not because I want to gatekeep, but because the energy of, like, I know a guy, this is my guy for whatever. It's like, what are you trying to prove? Like, you're not better than me. You know what I mean? It's like, it's too much. It's too much. We all know a guy for something. Just like, it's fine.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes. It's like, calm down about it. I live in Philadelphia, which is like, I would say probably one of the top tier cities for being like, do you want my guy? Do you want my mechanic? Do you want my carpenter? Do you want my whatever? So I'm, I'm close to many guys now, I feel.

[Tobin Low]

Yeah, yeah. You know what, though? Now that you're saying that that's fair, I think to have a guy for like, repairs and whatever, like, where it's really, you need a good person. I think that's totally fine to have a guy and recommend that it's the.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Lobster that upsets you here.

[Tobin Low]

The lobster part. I'm like, okay, calm it down. Let's take it down two notches.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes. Another person who feels like, calm it down, let's take it down two notches is Brian's girlfriend. We're gonna call her Christy.

[Tobin Low]

Oh, Christy, I already feel so bad for you. Sorry, continue.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Christy is from the Northeast, so, like, part of her life is making fun of Brian for this, right? Like, she's like, this is not a personality. And he's like, yes, it is. Like, my knitted sweater begs to differ. Right? But it's also, like, the way it is in any relationship where you're like, it's kind of cute that this person that I love has this, like, semi annoying, very strange thing that they're obsessed with. And so she's like, whatever. It's fine that my dude is obsessed with lobster. Plus, she's like, brian does literally all of our cooking. Like, he is our couple's chef. And so it is to my benefit to let Brian be obsessed with lobster.

[Tobin Low]

Oh, my God. Okay, you know what? This is kind of the equivalent of what? When an Asian person dates a white person.

[Kelsey McKinney]

No.

[Tobin Low]

And the white person, like, is obsessed and, like, knows how to cook, let's say, Chinese food really, really well. And the Asian person has to be, like, dying well, you know, like, this is problematic, but, like, damn, can you do that food good.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah. Yes, exactly. It's like, is this man kind of appropriating my lobster culture? Yes. But also, he's good at it. So, like, we'll let him. Let him pop off, right?

[Tobin Low]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let him make Xiao Long Bao from scratch. Go off king.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Sure. Oh, my God. When our story takes place, Brian is depressed because lobsters are not in season until June, and it is currently February.

[Tobin Low]

Okay.

[Kelsey McKinney]

It is February of 2020.

[Tobin Low]

Interesting. Am I supposed to take in this time and place as, like, we're about. Trauma's about to happen?

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes.

[Tobin Low]

Okay.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Brian, February of 2020, is so bummed because he's working all the time. He has an office job. He has to go there. His girlfriend Christy works as a waitress, so they, like, barely see each other, right? They're like, he goes to the office, he's miserable. She goes to the restaurant, she's miserable. They get home at different hours. They're always asleep. So when the world shuts down in March for what they think is two weeks, they're both like, okay, this is scary, but it's also, like, kind of nice that we're gonna get to see each other. Like, we're gonna get to hang out. We can, like, even though low key, we're, like, scared and wiping down all our groceries. It's, like, nice to be with someone that you love.

[Tobin Low]

Right? I feel like we all had a version of that feeling.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Except, of course, we know it wasn't two weeks.

[Tobin Low]

Right.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And it becomes quickly clear that Brian is going to have to work from home. So he like, makes his voyage to the office in a mask, gets his stuff, sets it up in the spare bedroom. He is then like in zoom hell, right? Like, going into the office at 8am, not leaving his room until 6pm, at which point he is like, exhausted and dead.

[Tobin Low]

Mm, mm, mm. Okay.

[Kelsey McKinney]

How are you feeling? You're looking stressed.

[Tobin Low]

I just, I mean, I mostly it's just taken me back to that feeling of, like, the readjustment to zooms all the time and being at home and all that. So if, like, I was tough on you, Brian, to start, now I feel for you a little bit. Yeah, I'm cracking my red boiled shell to you a little bit.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Christy also can't go to work, right, because she works in hospitality. So, like, Brian is feeling a little resentful because he's like, I'm working all day and then I finish working and then I get to do my, like, hobby that I like, which is cooking dinner. But I feel so stressed all the time now.

[Tobin Low]

Uh huh.

[Kelsey McKinney]

What do you think he should do here?

[Tobin Low]

Can I ask, do you know if Christy is a bad cook?

[Kelsey McKinney]

Good question. She does not cook.

[Tobin Low]

She does not cook. So we're talking like sweaters in the oven? Kind of.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes.

[Tobin Low]

Okay. Okay. I think if I were him, I'd be like, I think what a lot of people did, which is like, let's figure out like, a couple easy things that you can do. So there's like a little more of a chore share. Like, maybe we are doing like, pasta with a jarred sauce over it. And that's fine for some nights.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Maybe you can microwave a pizza, right?

[Tobin Low]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it'll be the thought that counts. And I will feel like, equally valued.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Brian decides, like, we have to have a conversation about, like, division of labor, right? Like, who's doing what. And he's like, if I'm gonna be cooking and going to work all day, I need you to do these other things. And Christie's like, that's totally fair. Like, I'm happy to do all those other things. Great. So it's like, that's fine. But it's like, still, the cooking is a lot of work and you're doing that at the end of the day. And like, he's feeling exhausted all the time. About a month into the pandemic, Christie comes to him and is like, I saw something online. It's called big lasagna. And everyone is going to make a big lasagna.

[Tobin Low]

Oh, my fucking big lasagna. I rolled that pasta by hand. I made that fucking tomato sauce by hand. Oh, my God. Yeah, I remember big lasagna for sure.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah, you forgot it until just now, but now you remember. Yeah. The thing about big lasagna. Okay, first off, shout out to friend of the podcast, Samin Noserat.

[Tobin Low]

Love her.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Wrote this recipe for the New York Times in, like, April of 2020 and was like, we're all making big lasagna. And the thing about big lasagna is that it was kind of insane. Like, it was like, you're gonna make every piece of the lasagn by hand.

[Tobin Low]

Yes.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And then you're gonna stack it all up and you're gonna cook it. And then, like, the lasagna is so big that you'll have a meal for, like, a week.

[Tobin Low]

Yes, yes. You know what's funny about it, thinking back on it now, is like, do you know those TikTok accounts that are, I think, essentially rage bait, where it's the influencers who, like, I wanted gum, and so I. Xanthan. Whatever, whatever. It's like, we all like to rag on that, but once upon a time, we were like, I'm going to make a lasagna. I'm going to start by getting a pottery wheel to make the container.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah, exactly. I'm, like, learning to make a bechamel sauce. Right. Like, in my kitchen, like, sweating.

[Tobin Low]

It was so good, though. Can I just say, the final product was worth the. The juice was worth the squeeze.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes. Okay. So in, like, writing this script, I was like, damn, should I make the big lasagna again? Because I was like. I remember it being really good.

[Tobin Low]

It was so good.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Anyway, thank you, Samin. Okay, so Christy comes to Brian and is like, everyone's doing this big lasagna. I think big lasagna seems great. I want to make the big lasagna. But, like, I know that cooking is, like, kind of your thing. Would it be okay with you if I went big lasagna mode? What do you think?

[Tobin Low]

Wait, she's going to do big lasagna?

[Kelsey McKinney]

She wants to do big lasagna.

[Tobin Low]

No, Christy, no. If you can't ride a bike, you don't get on a motorcycle. Like, that's not. This is too fast. Too much too fast. I think this is bad news.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Brian is, like, a control freak in the kitchen, right? Like, he's, like, the kind of person that cannot share, right? Like, if you're like, can I help you? Can I chop something? He's like, no, because you're going to chop it wrong. Right? So he's like, the thing is, the only way you can cook the big lasagna is if I forfeit it entirely. Like, I cannot help you. You have to do it by yourself. And she's like, cool, I'll do it.

[Tobin Low]

That seems fair. I have to say. Everyone here in this story so far is in a prison of their own making.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes. And Christy enters jail. She lives there now in the big lasagna jail. And, like, the thing about big lasagna is there's a lot of videos and there's a lot of instructions. And, like, is her lasagna the best big lasagna in the world? No, but she makes it. And Brian is like, I'm so proud of you. Like, you don't know how to cook, and you made a whole lasagna from scratch. That's crazy.

[Tobin Low]

Oh, my God. Good for her.

[Kelsey McKinney]

She's like, yeah, I. Like, I wanted to prove to myself that I could do it. And he's like, you did it, babe. And she's like, here's the thing. I think that you are really stressed and I'm worried about you. Like, could I cook some more? I have now proven that I can follow un recipe. Like, please.

[Tobin Low]

Oh, I think I missed that in their dynamic, that it's not just that he is the only one who cooks because he's the only one who can. It's that he's been keeping her out. I see. Okay, so she wants to cook now.

[Kelsey McKinney]

She wants to cook. She's like. I mean, she's watching him work all the time. It's like, what if when you stopped working on your zoom call at 8pm There was dinner for you to eat?

[Tobin Low]

Right.

[Kelsey McKinney]

What if that.

[Tobin Low]

Yeah.

[Kelsey McKinney]

So Brian is like, okay, compromise. You can cook on weekdays. Like, I still get to cook my special little things on the weekends, but on the weekdays, you can cook dinner.

[Tobin Low]

Cool. And the division of labor has now switched the other way, where she's doing five days a week and he's doing two.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes. Christy's like, great. I love that. Because Christy has too much time, right? And she is bored. So she quickly becomes embroiled in the home cooked culture that swept the Nation in early 2020.

[Tobin Low]

Sure.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Do you remember this?

[Tobin Low]

I'm guessing she's making sourdough. I'm guessing that she's. What were other things that got really big at that time?

[Kelsey McKinney]

Luckily for you, I have a list of things we can go through to see if you remember them.

[Tobin Low]

Oh, beautiful. Let's hear it.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Do you remember banana bread?

[Tobin Low]

Fuck, yeah.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Do you remember growing Your own scallions in a shot glass.

[Tobin Low]

Oh, my God. Yes. And I have no green thumb whatsoever. Like, I kill cactuses. And I tried this trick, and no one told me that you have to switch out the water fairly frequently, so it just rotted. The smell was overwhelming.

[Kelsey McKinney]

No. Do you remember the bucatini shortage?

[Tobin Low]

Yes. Yes.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And the flower shortage. And the flower shortage.

[Tobin Low]

Yes. Yes. It was so hard to find that stuff.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah. Do you remember jammy eggs?

[Tobin Low]

I still make jammy eggs.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah, they're good. I still make saucy beans, too.

[Tobin Low]

Oh, saucy beans. Yeah.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah. All of these things happened in, like, the first two months of the pandemic. Like, they happened, like, immediately.

[Tobin Low]

Yeah.

[Kelsey McKinney]

So Christy is, like, getting deep in home cook culture. She is, like, being, you know, dumped into the ocean to learn to swim. She's, like, watching Molly Baz videos. Right. She's making Alice and Roman cookies. This is fine. Except nothing she makes is, like, really that great. And also, the kitchen is always a disaster.

[Tobin Low]

Uh huh. Uh huh.

[Kelsey McKinney]

So, like, when Brian wants one glass of water or to cook on the weekend, it's, like, covered in flour.

[Tobin Low]

I see. And I'm sure Brian, with his, like, yes, chef mentality is, like, losing his mind.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Exactly. Yes. This is the dynamic when one day Brian gets a text.

[Tobin Low]

Okay.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And this text is from Lawrence. Sweet, beautiful Lawrence is Brian's lobster guy.

[Tobin Low]

They're on a texting basis.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Lawrence is a hometown hero. He's like one of those giant men, like, beefy men, who has, like, a red beard and, like, all American traditional tattoos and, like, is always wearing a perfect sweater.

[Tobin Low]

Yes. I can. I can picture it completely.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Brian admires Lawrence the way that straight men admire other straight men. Which is to say he has a crush on him.

[Tobin Low]

Yes. Okay.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And Brian is like, oh, my God, Lawrence is texting me. I can't believe I forgot all about him. Like, we've been so busy with work. This is terrible. And the text is like, hey, everyone. Clearly a form text that's going to lots of people. Hey, everyone. Just wanted to let everyone know that me and the Mrs. Are going down to Florida to ride this all out until lobster season comes back. Terrible.

[Tobin Low]

Yeah.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Lobster man is leaving. The text continues. I just wanted to ask everyone for a favor. My cousin Jax J A X usually sells fish to restaurants, but with all the restaurants closed, he's selling direct to consumers. If you want to buy some fish, he's going to be selling fresh caught fish in, like, this person's front yard on Tuesdays.

[Tobin Low]

I see.

[Kelsey McKinney]

What do you Think about this.

[Tobin Low]

This was also kind of a pandemic thing. Is the, like, buying in bulk or, like, direct from restaurant? Like, I feel like a lot of restaurants were like, we're just gonna sell our inventory now.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes.

[Tobin Low]

So I feel this is also bringing back feelings of, like, oh, right, I picked up so many boxes of just, like, fancy groceries or whatever.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Eating, like, a weird tasting menu in your apartment. Right. Like, unhappily, yes. Brian is like, if Lawrence is asking me to help his cousin Jacks, I'm gonna help him.

[Tobin Low]

Yeah. Okay.

[Kelsey McKinney]

So he tells Christy. He's like, can you please go to Lawrence the lobster guy's cousin's thing? He, like, sends Christy the text. He sends her the Instagram post. He sends her, like, the time and stuff. He's like, I gotta support my guy. And Christy's like, of course. Like, she also loves Lawrence. Everyone loves Lawrence. Like, sometimes if it's your birthday or anniversary or something, Lawrence will give you free clams. So everyone's like, lawrence is the love of my life. Right. And also, as you mentioned, there was a lot of valor in buying things early on in the pandemic. Like, it was very easy to be like, I'm the best person in the world because I'm supporting my community. And, like, mutual aid is me buying myself dinner. Me buying cocktails to go in a court container to walk around my neighborhood. That's community care, baby.

[Tobin Low]

Yeah. Oh, my God. Batch cocktails, tbt. Yeah.

[Kelsey McKinney]

So Christy and Brian are both on board. They're like, we're gonna support Lawrence the lobster guy's cousin Jacks by buying his fish. So the first week this is happening, Christy goes. Apparently, the whole community got this text. The whole community was like, we'll take care of your cousin for you, beloved lobster man. Because by the time Christy gets there, there are no fish left.

[Tobin Low]

Ah. Okay.

[Kelsey McKinney]

How are you feeling at this point? Let's check in.

[Tobin Low]

Here's my worry for them, please. As someone who has at times in my life been part of, like, a csa, it seems all well and good where you're like, I'm gonna get a bunch of Ron Green. It's gonna be great. And then it's like the New Yorker, where it's obsessive in its abundance and its regularity. And so I'm just worried what they're buying into.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Right.

[Tobin Low]

One can only eat so much fish.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah. You can only use so many cloves of garlic. Right.

[Tobin Low]

Like, exactly. So I. I'm. I'm. I wonder where this is going for them.

[Kelsey McKinney]

The next Tuesday comes, and when Brian emerges from all his meetings, there is, like, a nice dinner on the table. And the dinner is fish. And Christy's like, I went to the pop up. I got the fish. And Brian's like, thank you so much for going like, did you meet Lawrence the lobster man's cousin Jacks? And she's like, oh, my God, yes. But Jacks does not look like Lawrence.

[Tobin Low]

Huh?

[Kelsey McKinney]

And Brian's like, what do you mean? And Christy's like, I don't know. Lawrence is, like, kind of cuddly. And Brian's like, you think Lawrence the lobster man is cuddly? And she's like, yeah, he's like a soft man. Like, his hair looks soft. His sweaters are soft. She's like, jacks is the opposite. He's, like, very lean, and he's, like, wearing the most insane thing I've ever seen.

[Tobin Low]

Okay.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And Brian is like, what thing? And she's like, well, I thought at first that it was like, a tool belt, but then when I got closer, I realized that it wasn't a tool belt. It's actually cargo shorts that have been cut so that only the waistband and the pockets on the side remain. And then he buttoned that on top of his jeans.

[Tobin Low]

Okay, okay. Huh?

[Kelsey McKinney]

Brian's like, what? And she's like, yeah, it's like, just the pockets. He had a bunch of stuff in them.

[Tobin Low]

Huh?

[Kelsey McKinney]

And Brian's like, okay, this is strange. What else was happening there? And she's like, oh, my God, it was such a cute little operation, right? Like, kind of small. Couple coolers and a table. It felt super safe. Like, you told him what you wanted. Everyone's wearing a mask. He put it on the table. You venmoed him with a fish emoji, which is good, because at this time, people are scared of cash. And also, there was a coin shortage, right? And then he backs up, you take your fish, bing, bang, boom. Brian's like, that sounds great. I love that for you. And Christie's like, yeah, the only thing is, it was, like, really expensive for fish.

[Tobin Low]

Huh?

[Kelsey McKinney]

And Brian's like, honestly, that's fine. Not a lot of people have jobs right now. I still have a job. I'm still making money. Like, I will support my lobster guy and his cousin at all costs.

[Tobin Low]

Right, right, right. Also, a familiar failing from that time.

[Kelsey McKinney]

They eat the fish. The fish is good, but it's. It's not great. And he's like, chrissy, how did you cook this? And Chrissy's like, oh, I just roasted it. And he's like, with oil and salt. And she's like, uh, no, not really. I mean, I figured since it was so fresh, it was better to, like, leave the natural flavor. So I just put some arranged lemons and oranges on the top of it, like I saw on Alison Roman's Instagram. And he's like, baby, I love you, but you have to use oil and salt.

[Tobin Low]

She just raw dogged that fish in the ocean.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes.

[Tobin Low]

Amazing.

[Kelsey McKinney]

She tastes the fish. She's like, oh, my God, you're so right. This needs salt so badly. And he's like, okay, so next week you're going to use oil and salt? And she's like, yes. Next week comes, he's busy. He's stuck in meetings till 8. This is terrible. When he comes to dinner, Christie fills them all in. She's like, you know, there's this happened a lot in the pandemic where, like, one person was in meetings all day and exhausted, and the other person was, like, starved for social interaction. So it was like, one wants to talk so badly, the other wants silence. So Christie's talking, talking, talking, and she's like, it was busier this week. There were more coolers. Lots of people were there. It was very exciting. I waved to our neighbors, blah, blah, blah, blah. She's like, I used oil and salt this week and lemons, so I think it's going to be really good.

[Tobin Low]

Okay.

[Kelsey McKinney]

They taste the fish. It's still fine. Brian's like, I don't understand what she's doing to this fish. Like, why does it taste like this? There are a lot of people who are huge haters about fall. Like, they're so mad that it's getting dark and that everyone's having so much fun and that it's the spooky season. I do not understand these people. I'm like, why are you a hater of pumpkin spice lattes? Like, we're living it up. Finally, I get to pull out my sweaters. It's such a treat. Something I'm really looking forward to as the weather turns cooler is slipping into all of my cozy things from Quince. Quince is known for their Mongolian cashmere sweaters that start at just $50. And it's not just that. All Quint Items are priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands. That includes beautiful leather jackets, cotton cardigans, soft denim, and so much more. I recently bought another cashmere blanket from Quince. You might be saying, but you already had one cashmere blanket. Well, guess what? Having more than one cashmere blanket is a real treat and I love it. It's so soft. Now I have two and I can share them with my friends or I can have them in different rooms, which is very exciting. Get cozy in Quince's high quality wardrobe essentials go to quince.comgossip for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's Q U I N C E.comgossip to get free shipping and 365 day quince.comgossip despite wearing a hat every single day all summer long, I do have the skin of a Victorian ghost. Which means that if the sun even finds one little spot of skin that hasn't had sunscreen applied in the last like one hour, it destroys it. And so, you know, after a summer trying to avoid the sun, I still ended up with a little tiny dark spot on my cheek, which is so annoying. But you know, skin changes over time and it can be so overwhelming to figure out the right products for your skin. Which is why we're excited to partner with Apostrophe, the sponsor of this episode. Apostrophe's goal is to help you feel confident in your own skin. Whether you're dealing with breakouts, signs of aging, or acne scarring, Apostrophe will help you love the skin you're in. Apostrophe is an online platform that connects you with an expert dermatology team to get customized acne treatment for your unique skin. Through Apostrophe, you can get access to oral and topical medications that use clinically proven ingredients to help clear acne. Simply fill out an online consultation about your skin goals and medical history. Then snap a few cells and a dermatology provider will create a customized treatment plan just for you. Apostrophe offers access to prescription treatments for all types of acne, from hormonal acne to facial acne, and even back, chest and butt acne treat breakouts from head to toe. I famously have only one skincare goal, and it's to make all of my pores disappear and look like a beautiful little doll. And that is extremely hard to achieve by yourself with just like drugstore products. So that's why I love working with Apostrophe, because you know, you have access to an expert derm team and they make you a tailored treatment plan and then all of it just shows up at your house and you don't have to wait in line at the pharmacy. We have a special deal for our audience. Get your first Visit for only $5 at apostrophe.com gossip. When you use our code gossip, that's a savings of $15. This code is only available to our listeners. To get started, just go to apostrophe.com gossip and click Get Started. Then use our code gossipinapp and you'll get your first visit for only $5. Thank you, Apostrophe, for sponsoring this episode. Every week she makes fish on Tuesday. Okay, it's fine. She's so happy to be supporting Jackson the community. He's so happy to be supporting Jacks in the community. As the weeks go by, this operation is like, really growing, right? Like, there are tin coolers. People are like, sharing recipes in an email chain. There's like one week where everyone bakes ceviche together. It's like, just like big lasagna. It always tastes fine. And Brian is always like, thank you so much for dinner, honey. I love it. Because he's like, it's nice of her to cook. Jacks at this point has like a whole professionalized Instagram. Right? And so Brian's following that and he sees one day that Jax is like, hey, new announcement. We're gonna have more varieties of fish now.

[Tobin Low]

Okay?

[Kelsey McKinney]

Brian's like, that rules. He's like, maybe if Kristy got a different kind of fish, it would be better.

[Tobin Low]

Uh huh.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Do you broach this to Kristi? Like, what do you think?

[Tobin Low]

I think there's totally. He has total coverage to just say, we're eating this every week. We, you know, like our whole life right now is about the same routine over and over again.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes.

[Tobin Low]

He has total coverage to be like, let's just switch up the fish for variety. Like, I think he can do that without hurting anyone's feelings.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes. He's like, I'm not gonna tell her that I think the fish is fine every week when she cooks it. I'm gonna say, hey, I saw there was a new fish. Yeah, like, new fish just dropped. Maybe we could try it. And Christy's like, oh, my God, great idea, right? They, like, decide which of the other fish they're going to cook. They pick a recipe. She like, goes, the next Tuesday, she texts him from Jack's thing. She's like, I got the cod. It came from a bigger cooler. He's like, this is huge. I love this. He, like, sits down at the table that night to eat it. He takes a bite and he's like, this is the same fucking fish.

[Tobin Low]

Oh. It's not even the different variety that was promised.

[Kelsey McKinney]

It tastes identical.

[Tobin Low]

No.

[Kelsey McKinney]

What do you do? You're Brian, your Cute girlfriend has prepared fish for you for the eighth week in a row.

[Tobin Low]

I think this is the moment where you can say what you've been feeling, because now it is truly not her problem. Like, it's. You can say, like, this tastes like the same fish, and that's not your fault. That's. That is somebody who told you it was a different fish. So whether or not he's going to do it, I think this could be his moment to fess up.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Mm. You know when you've, like, had a lot of bad things happen in a row and then one more bad thing happens and it, like, breaks you in half?

[Tobin Low]

Yeah.

[Kelsey McKinney]

This is the one more bad thing for Brian, right? Like, he's like, he is crying and Christy is like, why are you. Oh, no. Like, why are you crying? Like, I'm so sorry. Did I make the fish wrong? And he's like, it's just like, it's so many meetings and, like, things are so scary. And I was like, really looking forward to having a different fish today. And Christie's like, but I got a different fish today.

[Tobin Low]

Huh?

[Kelsey McKinney]

You're Brian. You're like, 75% sure that this is an identical fish. How are you continuing this conversation?

[Tobin Low]

I think I'm calling a spade a spade. I'm like, we're being swindled somehow. Like, you know, like, we want to support this small business, but something isn't adding up. Something smells fishy.

[Kelsey McKinney]

In fact, Brian is like, how did you prepare this fish? Like, what did you do? He's like, maybe it's just the preparation that makes it taste the same. Right. And Christie is like, I'm really trying my best. Like, I know I'm not as good of a cook as you, but, like, I'm really trying. Like, I got a different fish and, like, I prepare. It's like a nice lemony garlic sauce. Like, I'm so sorry. And Brian's like, no, no, no, no, no. I know that you're doing your best. Like, I'm not blaming you. I just, like, I really think this is the same fish. And she, like, goes into the kitchen and she's like, okay, here's the, like, wrapper it came in, right? Like, see, it says cod.

[Tobin Low]

Uh huh.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And he's like, okay. I think maybe Jack's just, like, got mixed up and gave you the same fish as last week.

[Tobin Low]

I see.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And Chrissy's like, yeah, maybe, but, like, he feels so bad.

[Tobin Low]

Uh huh.

[Kelsey McKinney]

How are you feeling at this point?

[Tobin Low]

I think everyone's in their feelings. Everyone's A little emotional. I'm going to tuck away suspicions for now and be like. I'm going to take it back a notch and say, like, I'm sorry. You know, this is. You're doing your best. I appreciate it. I think I'm going to return to the fantasy land where we're both living in. She's doing a fine job.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And that.

[Tobin Low]

This is a different fish.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes, that is exactly what happens. Brian is like, I'm not gonna say another word about this. Like, she could serve me this same fish forever. That is fine. And I will say I love it. I appreciate her. Right? Like, she is helping me. The next Tuesday, he comes out of his terrible hell hole of Zooms, and at his place on the table are two plates, okay? And on each plate is a fish filet. And Christy is like, after I got really upset last week, I didn't want to talk about it anymore, but it kind of, like, wormed its way into my brain. And I was like, what if he's right? She's like. So I thought about what you were saying, and today I got two different kinds of fish, and I prepared them the same way. And now you can try them.

[Tobin Low]

Smart.

[Kelsey McKinney]

You like that?

[Tobin Low]

That's brilliant. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love this.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Brian is like, this is thrilling. He's like, this is the most interesting thing that has happened to me in. There is no intrigue in the world. Right? He's, like, all amped up.

[Tobin Low]

Yeah.

[Kelsey McKinney]

He looks at the fish. The fish look identical. He's like, okay, bad start. He tastes the first fish. It tastes fine. He drinks a little water. He tastes the second fish. It tastes fine. They taste exactly the same. Brian's like, are you fucking with me? Like, these are the same fish. And you just put them on these plates, like, as a bit. Like, that's a really good bit. And Christie's like, I promise you, I am not fucking with you. Like, here are the papers. They are two different fish.

[Tobin Low]

Oh, my God.

[Kelsey McKinney]

So now you think that Jacks has been giving you the same fish no matter what kind of fish you order? What do you do with this information?

[Tobin Low]

Do they have friends who have also been purchasing fish from Jax?

[Kelsey McKinney]

Great question. Yes.

[Tobin Low]

Okay. I think I'm going on an information gathering. I'm not going directly to Jack's yet. I'm seeing if other people have the same experience.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Okay? So the first thing they do is they ask the other people they know that are getting this fish share. And they're all like, yeah, we get the fish. They always taste fine. No problems. Here. And they're like, okay. Interesting that your fish also tastes fine, right? Not good, not great. Fine. They're like, three months into the pandemic at this point, right? So they have, like, a pod of people that they're seeing, right? Like, safely. And so Christy is like, okay, you know, I work as a waitress at a restaurant. There's a chef from my restaurant in our pod. She's like, so we're going crazy. Like, Tiger King is over. This is our mystery. We are locked in. She's like, I'm roping the chef into this, right? He's a fucking chef. So she's like, hey, chef, can you identify a fish for me? And he's like, yeah, totally. Send the fish over. So she, like, sends a pic of the first fish to the group thread and is like, what fish is this? And the chef's like, I don't know, man. It like, looks like a tilapia, I guess. Like some kind of white fish. And Chrissy's like, okay, thank you. What about this one? And the chef is like, those look the same.

[Tobin Low]

Oh, my God.

[Kelsey McKinney]

He's like, but I'd have to taste them to, like, tell you what kind of fish it is.

[Tobin Low]

Okay.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Christie's like, great, I'll be right over. So she and Brian take her two fish, which are not eaten yet, go over to the chef's house and are like, here you go, taste these. He tastes the first fish. He's like, this is not a good fish. They're like, yes. He tastes the second fish. He's like, okay, these are the same fish. And they're like, we fucking knew it. We knew it was the same fish, right? They're, like, high fiving, right? They're thrilled.

[Tobin Low]

Yes.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And he's like, where did you get these fish? Right? He's, like, still tasting them and, like, looking confused. And they're like, oh, they're from Jack's. And the chef is like, Lawrence, the lobster man's cousin. And they're like, yeah. And he's like, okay, I don't know what kind of scam that man is pulling, but not only do I know that these are the same fish, I know what fish they are.

[Tobin Low]

Oh, is it not even, like, a nice fish? What kind of fish is it?

[Kelsey McKinney]

They're like, what kind of fish is it, man? And the chef is like, listen, I'm, like, 99% sure that these are the frozen tilapia fillets that I buy every single week from the big box store.

[Tobin Low]

Of course, of course. That's amazing. You Know what the towel should have been, Please. When he expanded the offerings. It's like when you see a restaurant that has a sign that says, we do sushi now, and you're like, no.

[Kelsey McKinney]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Tobin Low]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Kelsey McKinney]

This is not the place.

[Tobin Low]

Yeah, exactly.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Well, what do you do? What do you do with this? You now believe that Jax is selling frozen Big Box Store tilapia filets in fancy wrappers to many people in your community.

[Tobin Low]

Listen, if I'm Christy and I have the time in the world right now, all the time, I'm going to Amazon. I'm buying a wig and a trench coat. I'm headed to Big Box Store, and I am camping out in that fish section, waiting for evidence.

[Kelsey McKinney]

I love that plan. That is a really good plan. They are kind of like, okay, Jax is a small business owner, and right now in this country, we are obsessed with small business owners and, like, helping them. They're like, so if we're gonna accuse him of pulling a scam, we need to be absolutely sure that we're right. So their pod is like. Because now this other couple is in on this, right? They're like, we're devoted to this fish mystery.

[Tobin Low]

Yeah.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And so they're like, here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna test again next week with controls, okay? They decide someone else has to go to get the fish, right? Christy can't go because, like, Christy's been going every week. And Jax knows that Chrissy's not a good cook, right? So it's possible that he's just giving her the same fish because he knows she won't know any better. Right?

[Tobin Low]

Right.

[Kelsey McKinney]

You're like, brian can't go because, like, he's Lawrence the lobster man's friend. Chef can't go because chef is known by all of these people. So they're like, chef's wife is going to go. So chef's wife goes to Jack's and she buys the fish. She buys two different kinds of fish. Chef goes to the Big Box store, he buys frozen tilapia. They decide, you know, Christie's not that good of a home cook. Her methods are a little inconsistent. Chef is gonna do the cooking, okay? They go to chef's house. Chef is like, I'm gonna prepare them all the same way. And then we are gonna execute a blind taste test.

[Tobin Low]

Uh huh.

[Kelsey McKinney]

So he does this. He puts the three fillets, fish A, fish B, and the Big Box Store tilapia on their plates. They're all made the Same way. He's like, you're each gonna try one, right?

[Tobin Low]

Uh huh.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Everyone's tasting, right? They're tasting fish A, they're tasting fish B. They're tasting fish C. Christie's like, this is so much better than when I made it. And chef is like, thank you. They're testing fish B again, Right? All of these fishes are the same, right? They're like, these are the same. And the chef is like, please do not discuss, Please vote. Which one of these do you think is the tilapia? Brian's like, I think it's fish A. Christie's like, I think it's fish C. Chef wife is like, I think it's fish B. Chef is like, good job, honey. B was correct. And she's like, to be honest, I was guessing all of these taste the same.

[Tobin Low]

Oh, no.

[Kelsey McKinney]

How do you feel about this controlled experiment? Do you think it is good?

[Tobin Low]

I mean, I think it's pretty undeniable after such a, you know, a well executed experiment. In my mind, he's guilty. Like, I'm jumping straight to guilty.

[Kelsey McKinney]

No trial by jury, straight guilt.

[Tobin Low]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I also should say, and maybe this is my broken brain, if that is the case that he's been buying from Big Box Store and selling, like, go off. I love that. Like, you know the story of the girl who, like, snuck into Stanford's dorm even though she didn't get accepted and went to classes for like a couple weeks?

[Kelsey McKinney]

No, but that's hilarious.

[Tobin Low]

Yeah. Yeah. And then they kicked her out. And when I heard that story, I was like, they should let her into Stanford because, like, she's clearly brilliant. Yeah. There's like, let her stay ingenuity there. And so I'm like this small business guy. Like, he figured out a supply chain that these people would accept. So.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah. I mean, is it. It's still local if the chef. If the Big Box Store is down the street, right?

[Tobin Low]

Yeah.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Local fish Chef and Brian are like, this is ridiculous. They're like, it's time for us to do math. They're like, it's been like 10 weeks that he's been doing this. There's probably like 250 orders of fish every week. That's like $4,000 in fish sales. They're like, and this fish that you're buying at the Big Box Store is worth like a thousand dollars max for all of it. They're like, so this man is making a $3,000 profit off of, like, allegedly frozen Big Box tilapia.

[Tobin Low]

Again, honestly, kudos to Him.

[Kelsey McKinney]

If this is the case, everyone is pissed. They have not reached your state of tranquility yet. The chef is pissed because he's like, all these fish suck. Right. Brian and Christie are pissed because they're like, we've spent what it seems to be like a nice sum of money on frozen big box tilapia. And so has everyone in our neighborhood.

[Tobin Low]

Right?

[Kelsey McKinney]

Right. Brian and Christie are getting all worked up. They're like, should we sue? And the chef is like, you're gonna sue your highly illegal fish market? He's like, that's like reporting your drug dealer for shorting you an eighth. Like, you can't. Like, you can't sue someone for this. The justice system is useless to you here.

[Tobin Low]

Yeah. Yeah. Plus the sheer embarrassment of having to describe how you've been had in this way, you know, explaining that, I think would be embarrassing.

[Kelsey McKinney]

What other option do you have?

[Tobin Low]

Oh, well, at this point, you have information that you can just quietly spread to the masses. But then you would have to explain to Jax why all the business dried up.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes.

[Tobin Low]

So I don't know. I mean, I think I'm telling people what the deal is, but then I don't know what to do about Jax and what his questions will be.

[Kelsey McKinney]

You have to remember that Brian's number one loyalty is to Lawrence the lobster guy.

[Tobin Low]

Lawrence the lobster guy, Right.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And so he's like, if we tell everyone and then Jax's business dries up, he's gonna tell Lawrence that we killed his business. Right. And that's bad for me.

[Tobin Low]

Right.

[Kelsey McKinney]

But also, I don't want people buying expensive big box frozen tilapia. He's like, what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna confront Jax. Right? And hopefully in this confrontation, I can be like, I'm happy to support you, but you're lying. Please stop lying. And we will buy fresh fish from you. Like, that's fine. Everyone's like, great idea, Brian. We love it. So the next Tuesday, he goes. And he's like, hey, man, we need to talk. And Jax is like, I'm sorry, who are you? And Brian is like, oh, sorry, I'm Brian. I'm Christy's boyfriend. And Christy, like, waves and Jacks is like, okay. And Brian is like, yeah, Lawrence is my buddy. Like, we're buddies. And Jax is like, okay. And Brian's like, listen, we know what you're doing with the fish. Like, we know that they're all the same kind. And Jax is like, I don't know what you're talking about. We have four different kinds of fish. And Brian's like, we also know that they're all coming from the big box store. Like, you've gotta stop. And Jax is like, listen, man, I don't have time for this conversation. And then he gets into his car and he drives away, and everyone is like, where's Jacks going? And Brian is like, I don't know. And then Jacks is gone, and they never hear from him again.

[Tobin Low]

What, he just up and disappears?

[Kelsey McKinney]

He Irish combined his own fish thing.

[Tobin Low]

Wow. I've never. Like, what a way to confirm your guilt. It's just to, like, Looney Tunes disappear in a cloud of smoke as you're running out of town.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah. We're almost at the end. How do you feel? And whose side are you on at this point?

[Tobin Low]

Honestly? Honestly. Again, broken brain. Congratulations, Jax. A perfect crime.

[Kelsey McKinney]

We salute you.

[Tobin Low]

What I really would love to happen is for Lawrence to come back and be like, oh, I'm so sorry. My cousin Jack's like, I know he never made it. And they'd be like, what do you mean? Jax has been selling fish for. I just wanted to be so. Like, a scammer. Like, that would. That would really be delicious.

[Kelsey McKinney]

I do have a few more updates for you. Okay, the first one is that after Jax left town, everybody kind of just moved on. Like, people did a lot of wild stuff during the pandemic, and everyone was like, we're all fine. Like, he needed money. Like, it's probably fine. People's focus was, like, drawn elsewhere. Right. Like, every home cook was distracted in 2020 because bon appetit was imploding. So they were like, we have a lot of other things to think about. One final question I have for you is you're Brian.

[Tobin Low]

Yeah.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Do you contact Lawrence the lobster man about any of this?

[Tobin Low]

I am going to say if I were Brian. No, I'm gonna say it was like a weird blip. We all got had. We can all put our tails between our legs. At this point. I think the priority is a continued good relationship with Lawrence the lobster guy.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah. Brian is like, the cons are like, baby, Lawrence would be mad at me, and that would be terrible.

[Tobin Low]

Right.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And then I might have to find a new lobster guy, which would also be terrible. And he's like, but the pros are like, maybe I get justice in some way. Maybe he won't do it again. He's like, but the biggest pro is that I get to talk to Lawrence. So Brian decides I'm gonna text him.

[Tobin Low]

Oh, my God, Brian, why?

[Kelsey McKinney]

So he texts Lawrence the lobster man. And he's like, lawrence, a lot of shit has been happening. And he tells him everything. And Lawrence is like, God damn it. I thought he wasn't gonna do this again. He told me he was clean. He told me it was different this time. I took away his bingo store membership. I tried to stop this.

[Tobin Low]

Oh, my God. Jax is the music man. He's going town to town selling them band instruments and conning.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Brian is like, what do you mean? You thought he wasn't going to do this again? Has he done this before? And Lawrence is like, oh, yeah, man. Like, 10 years ago in a different part of the country, he ran the same scam with shrimp.

[Tobin Low]

Which is bold, because packaged shrimp, the difference is vast.

[Kelsey McKinney]

He's stark. Brian is like, oh, my God. And Lawrence is like, I'm so sorry, man. Like, I should have known better. What? And Brian's like, it's okay. I forgive you. And Lawrence is like, where is he? Like, I'm going to deal with him. And Brian is like, I don't know. Like, he's gone. He, like, disappeared in the wind. And Lawrence is like, God damn it. Like, I can't believe this happened again. And Brian's like, are you coming back? And Lawrence is like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll be back for the season.

[Tobin Low]

Oh, my God.

[Kelsey McKinney]

And sure enough, he came back and he caught lobster. And despite the pandemic, all the lobsters were fine, and there were plenty of them. And he gave Brian free clams all summer for his trouble, and sometimes even a free lobster.

[Tobin Low]

See, again, perfect crime. Everyone came out on top.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah. In the end, Brian got free lobster, which Christy did not cook. Yeah, Christy fell out of love with home cooking, you know, from either overexposure and exhaustion or half of the cooks she watched being canceled. Who's to say? Yeah, and she got very good at making rolls. And so together, they had lobster rolls all summer long, and they never saw Jack's again.

[Tobin Low]

Wow. Wow, wow, wow, wow. You know what? I think everyone got their money's worth out of this whole experience. You know? Like, maybe the fresh fish was the scam we solved along the way. Do you know what I mean?

[Kelsey McKinney]

No, no. Explain it.

[Tobin Low]

Like, at the height of pandemic, when people were locked away or, like, trying to be good and staying home and, you know, like, sort of in their houses, all you wanted was for something to happen, like, something that made it feel like life was happening.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yes.

[Tobin Low]

And I got to say, as much as they got scammed out of money, like, life happened for these people.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Yeah, I mean, I guess that's the real question is like in April of 2020, would you have paid, I don't know, $300 to have this story?

[Tobin Low]

Oh, maybe not that money.

[Kelsey McKinney]

Thank you so much for coming on the podcast again. It was a joy to have you on.

[Tobin Low]

Listen, I will come back whenever you send up the Gossip bat signal.

[Tiffany]

Thank you for listening to Normal Gossip. If you have a gossip story to share with us, email us at normal gossip defector.com or you can leave us a voicemail at 2679 GOSSIP. If you love this podcast and want to support us, become a friend or a friend of a [e-mail] you can follow the show on Instagram and tick tock At Normal Gossip. You can follow Kelsey on all social media at McKinneyKelsey. This podcast was produced by Alex Sujong Laughlin, Ozzy Linus Goodman and J. Toll Vieira. Justin Ellis is Defector's projects editor. Jasper Wang and Sean Coon are Def Defector's business guys. Alex sujong Laughlin is Defector's supervising producer. Tom Lay is our Editor in chief. Abigail Siegel is our intern. Dan McQuaid runs our merch store which you can find at normalgossip store. Tara Jacoby designed our show. Art thank you to Rachel Hampton, Brandi Jensen, Sabrina Imbler, Dave McKenna, Chris Thompson, Heather Chen, Ray Ratto, David Roth, Catherine Hsu, Jasper Wang, Israel Daramola and Patrick Redford for your help on this season. Thanks to the rest of the Defector staff. Defector Media is a collectively owned subscriber based media company. Normal Gossip is a proud member of Radiotopia. Normal Gossip is hosted by Kelsey McKinney. I'm Tiffany and remember you did not hear this from me.

[Tobin Low]

Radiotopia from PRX.