Rise of the Habsburgs

Summary

Not Just the Tudors: "Rise of the Habsburgs" (September 8, 2025)

Overview of the Episode

In this first of a four-part series on the Habsburg dynasty, host Professor Suzannah Lipscomb is joined by historian Professor Martin Rady (author of The Habsburgs: The Rise and Fall of a World Power) to trace the improbable ascent and enduring dominance of the Habsburgs in European history. The discussion centers on the dynasty’s origins, how they amassed their sprawling empire—principally through clever marriage alliances, inheritance, and political strategy—and the contradictions underlying their power. Rady and Lipscomb illuminate both the grandeur and the fragility of the Habsburg experiment, from their spectacular rise in the late Middle Ages to their entanglements with Spain and their role in defining modern Europe.

---

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Unlikely Rise of the Habsburgs ([00:00]–[05:10])

• Modest Beginnings to Imperial Power: Originally a minor Swiss noble house in the 10th century, the Habsburgs leveraged their ancestral ties and reputational maneuvers to position Austria as the heart of a greater imperial dream.
• Dynastic Myth-Making: The Habsburgs traced their lineage not just to local nobility but to the Babenbergs, the Hohenstaufen, and even Byzantine rulers, transforming "Austria" into a portent of greatness.

"Austria is not so much a geographic expression as an idea and a portent of greatness." —Martin Rady [04:45]

2. Periods of Decline and Recovery ([05:11]–[12:58])

• Eclipse by the Luxembourgs: The 14th century saw the family’s influence wane, symbolized by murder and exclusion from the Electorate—a key blow to their prestige, and reflected even in marriage prospects.
• "Faking it 'til They Made it": In response, the Habsburgs indulged in spurious practices: fraudulent charters supposedly issued by Roman emperors, invented titles, and ostentatious (sometimes deceptive) architectural displays.
• Frederick III and the ‘AEIOU’ Motto: Frederick III (ruled 1440–1493) consolidated the idea of a world-spanning destiny with the cryptic acrostic "AEIOU," understood as "Austria will rule the whole world."

"This acrostic is stuck everywhere in Habsburg iconography. It's rather like Frederick uses it instead of 'this book belongs to.'" —Martin Rady [11:10]

3. Succession, Inheritance, and the Marriage Strategy ([12:58]–[23:40])

• Inheritance Troubles: The tradition of dividing estates among male heirs led to recurring fragmentation and succession crises—a practice finally abandoned in the 18th century.
• Marital Machinations: Lacking the might to conquer, the Habsburgs mastered the art of marrying into powerful dynasties—sometimes with astonishing windfalls.
• Double Marriage with Spain and Burgundy: Maximilian I’s marriage policies linked the family to the Spanish throne and Burgundy, setting the stage for their 16th-century global reach.

"You haven't got the capacity to wage war...what you can do is marry into the French royal household." —Martin Rady [17:09]

Notable Anecdote:

• The 1490s Double Marriage and Spain: Habsburg luck (or "high-stakes gambling") brought Spain and ultimately the New World under their rule:

“He dies worn out by the amorous attentions of his bride.” –Martin Rady, on the premature death of Juan [18:55]

4. Charles V & the Global Habsburg Empire ([23:40]–[28:53])

• Governing a Multinational Patchwork: Charles V, inheriting an immense composite monarchy, ruled pragmatically—maintaining local laws and elites rather than enforcing central authority.

“To rule each realm as if the king of each. In other words, to be the special ruler of each of those parts.” –Martin Rady [27:00]

• True First ‘Global Empire’? Rady challenges conventional wisdom, arguing the Ottomans rivaled the Habsburgs for global reach, even if blocked from the Atlantic:

"We always think of the Habsburgs as being...the first European global empire. But I don't think it is. I think the Ottoman Empire is doing exactly the same." —Martin Rady [27:07]

5. Split Dynasties, Entwined Fates ([28:53]–[36:01])

• The 1555 Division: Charles V’s abdication split the empire into Spanish and Austrian lines, yet the two remained closely linked—militarily, financially, and (sometimes disastrously) by intermarriage.
• Consequences of Inbreeding: By the 17th century, catastrophic inbreeding led to dangerously high infant mortality rates within the dynasty:

"By the 17th century, they have an 80% infant mortality, which is four times the norm, and that is due to catastrophic inbreeding." —Martin Rady [32:19]

• Fragile Alliances: Habsburg unity was often circumstantial rather than preordained; the Spanish commitment to the Thirty Years’ War, for instance, came about haphazardly rather than through firm policy alignment.

6. Unraveling Control: The Dutch Revolt and Thirty Years’ War ([36:01]–[41:01])

• Dutch Revolt’s Impact: Despite adversities, Spain retained significant assets in the Low Countries, remaining solvent and militarily able—Rady is skeptical towards claims of their dramatic failure.
• Thirty Years’ War: The war’s devastation and drain on resources also highlighted the limitations of the Habsburg’s reach, but it reinforced cooperation between the Austrian and Spanish lines.
• Westphalia and Sovereignty: The 1648 Treaty of Westphalia is often seen as the origin of state sovereignty, but Rady casts doubt, noting the Holy Roman Empire’s complexity defied such straightforward notions.

"People didn't notice that at the time...he [Pufendorf] calls it...as if a monster...a monstrosity that doesn't fit any pattern." —Martin Rady [42:20]

---

Notable Quotes and Memorable Moments

• On Habsburg Self-Image:
  "They react by bigging themselves up...The Italian scholar Petrarch said it's so obviously fraudulent, these charters, that he actually felt physically ill reading them." —Martin Rady [07:14]
• Host’s Summary:
  "The expression 'fake it till you make it' applies when it comes to the Habsburgs—this idea of a fraudulent basis, a created archduchy, pretending you've got a cathedral before you have one." —Suzannah Lipscomb [12:58]
• On Marriage Alliances:
  "It's a bit like online betting. And Habsburg should have been reminded to take a break and set limits because they are gambling at a very, very high intensity." —Martin Rady [22:42]
• On the Ottomans’ Global Ambitions:
  "They would, given the chance, have been setting out their war fleets in the Atlantic...The conversion of the Americas to Islam. We'd now have Sultan Trump instead." —Martin Rady [27:50] (humorous aside)
• On State Sovereignty and Westphalia:
  "Social scientists...never read books, they just talk to each other and they're convinced that somehow Westphalia equals the idea of state sovereignty." —Martin Rady [43:50]

---

Timestamps for Important Segments

• Habsburg Origins and Mythmaking – [03:50]–[07:10]
• Fake Charters & Symbolic Displays of Power – [07:14]–[10:15]
• Frederick III, AEIOU, and Imperial Destiny – [10:18]–[12:58]
• Marriage Strategy and High-stakes Succession – [13:43]–[23:40]
• Charles V and Governance of Empire – [23:40]–[28:53]
• Ottomans as a Rival Global Empire – [27:05]–[28:53]
• The Habsburg Split and Consequences of Inbreeding – [30:29]–[33:44]
• Dutch Revolt and Financial Reality – [35:27]–[38:51]
• Thirty Years’ War and Westphalia's Legacy – [39:17]–[44:16]

---

Tone and Style

The discussion is engaging, witty, and layered with illuminating anecdotes and a touch of dry humor (especially from Professor Rady), balancing accessible storytelling with deep scholarly insight. Lipscomb’s questions are incisive and clear, often summarizing complex dynamics for listeners.

---

Summary

This episode provides a lively, comprehensive introduction to the Habsburgs’ transformation from minor nobles to a dynasty at the heart of European—and global—power. Through fraud, marriage, calculated risk, and a persistent belief in their own destiny, the Habsburgs shaped the trajectory of early modern history, even as their imagined unity was threatened from within and without. The conversation deftly sets the scene for deeper explorations to come in this special series.

Transcript

[A]

Hello, I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb. If you'd like Not Just the Tudors ad free to get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to historyhit With a historyhit subscription, you can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my own recent two part series, A World Torn the Dissolution of the Monasteries and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com forward/subscribe hello, I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb and welcome to Not Just the Tudors From History Hit the podcast in which we explore everything from Anne Boleyn to the Aztecs, from Holbein to the Huguenots, from Shakespeare to samurais, relieved by regular doses of murder, espionage and witchcraft. Not, in other words, just the Tudors, but most definitely also the Tudors. In the haze of medieval Europe, a modest Swiss noble house rose to become the most enduring imperial dynasty the continent has ever seen. The Habsburgs, first recorded near the river aire in the 10th century, did not look destined for empire building. Yet through a potent mix of marriage, inheritance, political instinct, and sheer persistence, they rose to dominate Europe for nearly four centuries, from their first imperial coronation in 1273 to their rule over the vast and fragmented transcontinental domain by the 16th century. The Habsburg story is one of improbable elevation and relentless adaptation. They presided over a patchwork of territories, each with its own laws, languages and customs. Their power rested not on national identity or conquest, but on dynastic prestige, legal tradition, and a dazzlingly successful marriage policy. In the space of just a few decades in the late 15th and early 16th centuries, they absorbed Burgundy, Spain, the New World, Hungary and Bohemia, stretching their influence from the Americas to the edge of the Ottoman Empire. Yet the very sprawl that fueled their greatness also exposed their limits. The Habsburgs often found themselves paralyzed by their own scale. Still, they helped shape modern Europe, defending Catholicism, provoking the sovereign principles confirmed at Westphalia, and leaving behind an imperial legacy built more on ceremony and symbolism than uniform control. A dynasty both magnificent and perpetually on the verge of collapse. This episode is the first in a special four part series on the Habsburgs. Today, we're setting the stage with an overview of the dynasty's improbable rise and enduring power. And then in weeks to come, hopefully will zero in and look more at the man who embodied their global ambitions. Charles V, the often overlooked women of the dynasty, and finally, the world of Rudolf ii, whose court in Prague became a center of art, science and eccentricity. Joining me today to chart the grand arc of Habsburg history is Historian Martin Rady, professor emeritus of Central European History at UCL and the author of the Habsburgs the Rock Rise and Fall of a World Power. I'm Professor Suzanne Lipscomb, and this is not just the Tudors from History Hit. Martin. Professor Ady, welcome to the podcast.

[B]

Nice of you to have me. Hello.

[A]

So we're going to be thinking about the 16th century Habsburgs largely once we get there. And I thought it might be worth starting with a sense of that period of just half a century, beginning in the 1470s when the Habsburg lands 18, explode outwards. So why did the Habsburgs pursue expansion in the first place?

[B]

The very reason that they are acquiring territories is because they already have a worldview. And that worldview comes from a number of different sources. It comes from the tradition of the Holy Roman Empire, but particularly as well, it comes from their ancestors in the Austrian lands, the Babenbergs, who were doubly related to the Hohenstaufens, the great emperors of the Middle Ages. And they were related as well to the Byzantine rulers of Constantinople. And the Babenbergs had an elevated idea of their own significance which the Habsburgs build into. They convert the Babenbergs, if you like, into their own ancestors, which is one of the reasons that they call so many sons Leopold after Saint Leopold of the Babenberg family. And the Babenbergs also invest Austria with a particular significance, so that Austria is already, if you like, the kernel of something greater, that Austria is not so much a geographic expression as an idea and a portent of greatness.

[A]

Was there ever a point when the Habsburgs actually lost influence?

[B]

We shouldn't forget either that in the 14th century, the Habsburgs are doing very badly indeed. They had very briefly acquired a couple of kings of Germany. Neither of them are crowned in Rome, so they don't become emperors, they're just simply kings of Germany. They don't convert that kingship into an imperial idea. And then, appallingly, in 1310, the nephew murders his uncle who is king of Germany, King Albert, and he is slain by his nephew. And this parricide, as it was called, is regarded as a bad thing for the Habsburgs, a bad portent for the future. And as a consequence, the Habsburgs begin to be eclipsed. And the final eclipse will be by the Luxembourg dynasty that takes over the leading role in the Holy Roman Empire and in Bohemia and in Central Europe. Luxembourg's particularly Emperor Charles iv, he rewrites the constitution, if you like, of the Holy Roman Empire. He establishes seven electors who will elect the future king would be Emperor. And the Habsburgs are not one of those seven. This is an appalling slight, and we can see it in marriage policy as well. Back in the 13th century, there are French princesses marrying into the Habsburgs. By the time of the late 14th century, the Habsburgs are having to put up with minor Polish duchesses. So, in other words, their prestige has gone.

[A]

So how do they try to recover their lost status? How do they react?

[B]

They react by bigging themselves up. And they do this in two ways. The first is through a whole series of fraudulent charters which pretend to have been written by Julius Caesar and Nero, in which appoint the rulers of Austria as the most important people in the Roman Empire, with the idea that this prestige will carry on to the Holy Roman Empire and to the people who rule Austria, the Habsburgs themselves. And the charters also give the Habsburgs the title of archduke. They give them the entitlement to wear little crowns and the fillet of majesty which would normally go underneath a full royal crown. Or all of these are spurious, but nevertheless, they give the Habsburgs very considerable prestige. And there are plenty of people that realize these are fakes. The Italian scholar Petrarch said it's so obviously fraudulent, these charters. They're so obviously fraudulent that he actually felt physically ill reading them. But nevertheless, they are validated and the prestige of the Hapsburgs continues. These charters only finally discovered to be entirely fraudulent in around the middle of the 19th century.

[A]

Were there any symbolic or physical displays of power they used to boost prestige?

[B]

They engage in a building campaign. There is a little parish church in the center of Vienna, and the archduke, as he calls himself now Archduke Rudolf, rebuilds this church as a cathedral. He petitions the pope to be allowed to have bishops, and the pope says no, because it'll trespass on the rights of existing bishops. At which point Rudolph sticks a spire on his alleged cathedral and he brings in canons into the choir. And canons you can only have if you've got a bishop. And he hasn't got a bishop, so he's pretending. And on top of that, he dresses the canons up as cardinals. So he is proposing not only that he has a bishop, but is somehow indicating that he has got his own pope. And he builds a great pompous mausoleum to himself in the center and engages in. He's not a conqueror, he's a briber. And he bribes his way to acquiring the Tyrol, which gives him fantastic silver reserves. And in the centre of the Tyrol is Innsbruck. And in the centre of Innsbruck is the famous golden roof built by Rudolf, to commemorate his control of Innsbruck and his greatness there.

[A]

Who is it that really solidifies this imperial ambition for them?

[B]

So the Habsburgs have this idea and it really comes to a crucial moment with Frederick III. Frederick III rules from 1440 right through till the end of the 15th end of the century. He's there a long time, 50 years rule, and people don't take to him. He's reckoned to be slothful, niggardly to nurse grievances. He travels with his own hen coop in order to save money on eggs. When he goes to the marketplace, he pre be a commoner so that he won't get overcharged. He's got all of these faults, but he does have grand ideas. And it is to him that we owe the acrostic A, E, I, O, U. And that acrostic is stuck everywhere in Habsburg iconography. It's rather like Frederick uses it instead of this book belongs to. He just sticks AEIOU on the front cover.

[A]

What does AEIU stand for? Why is it significant?

[B]

Well, there are about 200 different interpretations of what it possibly could be, but it was generally understood to mean Austria will rule the whole world, a version that can operate in both German and in Latin, and that in a sense shows his ambition and his vision. And on top of this, he constructs in Wiener Neustadt what is known as the Heraldic War. And the Heraldic War is actually based on rather fraudulent manuscript which itemizes all the previous rulers of Austria, going back to the flood, and including large numbers of Jewish patriarchs. And these interspersed with these are emperors, popes and saints. So the idea is that Austria is interwoven with, if you like, the destiny of the whole world, and it is linked to the heavens and divinely ordained. And that is what really drives the Habsburgs on, so that they have an imperial ambition before they actually have an empire.

[A]

What a wonderful summary. I mean, we get this incredible sense then, that the expression fake it till you make it applies when it comes to the Habsburgs, this idea of. Of a fraudulent basis, a created archduchy, the Philip of the Crown, pretending you've got a cathedral before you have one. In all these ways, this grandiosity leads the way. I wonder also if we could talk about the role of both the sort of principle and practice of collective inheritance and also marriage policies, particularly in the 15th century, and how that shaped their consolidation of power. What are the consequences of the Habsburg succession practices?

[B]

They do have the tradition of partable inheritance, and this will blight them really through to the 18th century, until they finally sort out a scheme of royal succession, which we'll only do in the, in the beginning of the 18th century. That's not unusual. I mean, most dynasties do not have a scheme of succession. They leave it up to whoever wins on the battlefield, or as in the Ottoman Empire, whoever kills all his brothers first. But Perks don't have one. But they have what are called household ordinances. And these lay down that there will be a division of property between the heirs. That is awkward because it does mean that your properties beget divided up most obviously between the death of Charles V, where he allocates half his empire to his son Philip and the other half to his brother Ferdinand. But there are other times as well, so that when Ferdinand dies, the succession goes three ways. So you have a king of Germany, Holy Roman Emperor, as he was automatically by that point, Holy Roman Emperor, who rules Austria and Bohemia, or most of Austria and Bohemia and then the other chunks of Austria, the Tyrol is assigned to another son and Styria is assigned to another, so that the Habsburg power base in Austria in its heartland is actually divided and weakened. And that is one of the problems. They'll get around it later, before they get to the 17, 18th centuries with the organization of a proper scheme of succession in the so called pragmatic sanction. Before that, they will get round it by the simple expedient of any surviving brothers, get them into the Church. And so you will get the situation whereby younger sons made at the age of three or four, they're made cardinals and assume an ecclesiastical career. That's all very well and good until you hit in the 1650s, when the elder son dies prematurely, he's already been crowned King in waiting, as it were, King of the Romans. He's expecting to automatically follow as emperor and he dies, at which point they look around, they have to drag the younger brother out of a monastery, I think it is, in order to give up his ecclesiastical career and assume a royal one. That man is Leopold I. So in other words, there are problems with this. And most notoriously, during Frederick III's reign, he has to satisfy two other brothers who don't just demand territory, they demand separate floors of their own in the Hofburg palace in the centre of Vienna.

[A]

And how did they use marriage to deal with these succession issues?

[B]

So this is awkward as far as marriage policy is concerned. This is really the trick. It's how do you square being rulers of the whole world, being rulers of Austria, which is going to command the entire orbit? How do you get to that position. And the solution that Frederick III has and his son Maximilian I adopts is you do it through a marital strategy. You haven't got the capacity to wage war. You can't take on France. France is too big. He's got twice the revenues of the Habsburg rulers. So you can't take on France. What you can do is marry into the French royal household. And if you manage these strategies correctly and with a fair bit of good fortune, then you can acquire territories when a line expires.

[A]

Can you give an example of one of their most successful dynastic marriages?

[B]

So the classic one would be in the marriage about 1490s, there is a double marriage pushed through by Maximilian. And Maximilian, the son of Frederick iii marries his son Philip of Burgundy to the Spanish princess Juana la Loca, Joanna the Mad, because she was. And his daughter Margaret marries Juana's brother Juan. And the consequence of that is that Spain falls to the Habsburgs fortuitously, because Juan, who is married to Margaret, dies prematurely. He dies worn out by the amorous attentions of his bride.

[A]

That's at least what they say in the 15th century.

[B]

That's right. He's an advertisement for self restraint in the bedroom.

[A]

It's too good a story to miss.

[B]

Philip dies early as well. He dies because his been brought up in the Netherlands. He doesn't understand the problems of being out in the sun and he gets sunstroke and that kills him. And his wife remains with his body in the castle of Tordesilas, allegedly not wanting to be parted from his corpse. He was apparently very good looking, called Philip the Handsome, but the surviving portraits of him making him look rather fleshy and overindulged, I always think. But the point is there's a son. And when Ferdinand of Aragon dies without male heir Charles of the Netherlands, Charles of Ghent, the grandson of Maximilian, is able to grab the crown of Spain for the Habsburgs.

[A]

That could easily have backfired, couldn't it?

[B]

Let's just imagine if it had gone the other way around. Supposing that Philip had died without an heir, that he had got sunstroke and died and there was no male heir, but that Juan and Margaret had been much more restrained after their marriage, then they might have had a son. In which case Miguel, shall we call him, would have succeeded and taken over a chunk of the Habsburg possessions and the Spanish would have been in occupation of part of Austria.

[A]

So was their success essentially a series of high stakes gambles.

[B]

If you're lucky, you can win an awful lot. And that's what the Habsburgs have done. Through the marriage alliance, they have managed to grab Spain. And with Spain comes the New World.

[A]

Were there any other key marriage alliances that shaped their future?

[B]

The second big marriage is between the Jagilo dynasty of Central Europe. They're originally Polish, and they have a cadet branch that rules Bohemia and Hungary. And Ferdinand marries the sister of, of the last Jagiello, King of Hungary and Bohemia, and a man called Louis ii. He, Louis, marries Ferdinand's sister, Anne. So in other words, we have a double marriage there. Now, exactly the same thing could have happened. It could have been that Ferdinand dies early, in which case Louis would have grabbed Austria. But it isn't. It's because it happens the other way around, just as you might hope if you're a Habsburg. Because in 1526, Louis II dies on the Battle of Mohacs, killed by the Turks, and Ferdinand is able to claim his inheritance. And he says, you know, I'm the closest descendant. I'm married to his sister, and my sister is his widow. So I have the principal claim. The Hungarians are a bit reluctant to have this. They say, oh, by the way, perhaps you don't realize we have an elective monarchy. And they attempt to set up an elective monarchy, and the elected rulers join up with the Turks and Hungary goes into a long period of civil war. But the point is, the Habsburgs have got Bohemia and they've got Hungary. And Bohemia is worth having because it's got silver mines. I would say it's a bit like online betting. And Habsburg should have been reminded to take a break and set limits because they are gambling at a very, very high intensity. But they pull it off. And as a result, the Habsburgs dominate Central Europe from the 16th century onwards, and they dominate the New World.

[A]

One of the ways in which the gamble maybe seems to pay off is in the character of some of those who inherit rule. And I suppose Charles V is perhaps the best example of that. Can we talk a bit about his style of rule and then come back to thinking about that point you mentioned earlier about the New World.

[B]

There are several ways you can run an empire. Perhaps folks will experiment with this. You can try and go for uniformity, and you can go and say, we're going to have a strong center and me in the center. The Emperor is going to lay down what everybody does and you're going to obey. And this is what they attempt to do. At the end of the 18th century, Maria Theresa starts down that route, and Joseph II notoriously continues back in the 19th century, they will have another unsuccessful attempt to do this. Why is it unsuccessful? Because people say, no, we're not going to do as you say. We've got our own traditions and we've got our own way of doing things. And if you continue to push us, we're going to go into some sort of rebellion, which is what happens in the 1780s and again which happens in the 1850s. So that's one way of ruling. The other way of ruling is to say, we're going to keep you in. We're going to keep your laws, your parliaments, your nobilities, your separate fiscal systems. We're going to keep the aristos in place. We're not going to jeopardize that. We're going to keep things much the way they are. And that is the policy which Charles adopts, as one of his advisors puts it, to rule each realm as if the king of each. In other words, to be the special ruler of each of those parts. And that is a very effective way of ruling. It's what the Habsburgs generally attempt to do. And when they continue with that policy, it's always the most effective. When rulers start adopting a more centralized approach, such as Philip II will attempt to do in the Netherlands, all hell will break loose and he will lose control not only of the aristocracy, he will lose control of the towns. So he'll lose the foremost political force in the country, and he'll lose the foremost economic force, and Spain will end up in a war that more or less lasts a century. So Charles recognizes the way to do things. He doesn't have a centralized administration at all. He travels with clerks, a few advisors, wherever he arrives. Franche compte, Oregon he just locks into the existing administrative structure. That's the way he does things. So if you like, he flits from one administration to another and is the supreme administrator in that region at every time he appears. And of course, he sets us a correspondence as well. And he has some quite able financial advisors.

[A]

Were the Habsburgs really the first global empire?

[B]

The one this business of global empires? We always think of the Habsburgs as being, if you like, the first European global empire. But it follows in the wake of the discovery of the New World and goes on taking Mexico, Peru, and we think that as being the premier global empire of the 16th century. I don't think it is. I think the Ottoman Empire is doing exactly the same. The Ottoman Empire can't get into the Atlantic. And just imagine if they could, but they are blocked by the Saudi sultans. Of Morocco, who are friends of the Habsburgs and block any access by the Turks into the Atlantic. They're very interested. Some of the earliest maps we have of the New World, one of Columbus's, we only know of it because the Ottomans got hold of it and they made a copy that's in the Topkapi palace in Istanbul. They're experimenting with building ocean going vessels rather than galleys. They would, given the chance, have been setting out their war fleets in the Atlantic. Just think how the world might have changed at that point. The conversion of the Americas to Islam. We'd now have Sultan Trump instead. So where do they go? They go the other way. They are expanding all along down to India and more particularly into the very Far East.

[A]

How far did the Ottoman Empire actually reach in this global expansion?

[B]

To give one example, Suleiman the Magnificent Sultan of the Ottoman Empire is engaged in funding and supplying and sending armaments and troops to assist the Sultan of Sarawak in Sumatra and is engaged in trying to assist him. Think in his war against Artsay, he sends whole shipments of cannons to the Sultan, but the Sultan doesn't really know how to use them and Instead uses his 300 elephants for his campaigns instead. But the point I'm making is that this expansion is happening not just in the Atlantic Ocean, it's happening in the Indian Ocean and out into the Pacific as well, from the other side. And the two, of course, will meet because no sooner have the Spanish Spanish Habsburgs got control of the New World than they are adding to the Atlantic trade, the Pacific trade, and opening up ports in Manila, Nagasaki and Japan and all down the Pacific seaboard. So in other words, the two great global empires that emerge in the 17th century are touching on the far side of the world.

[A]

We have this extraordinary extent of Habsburg territory really achieved under Charles V. But as you've indicated, from this principle of partial inheritance, his abdication in 1555 leads to the splitting of the Spanish and Austrian lines. It feels like the moment of greatest consequence, all their work to bring these lands together now splitting them in two. Can you say a bit more about that?

[B]

Yes, it is momentous because the Central European Habsburgs need Spanish money. They need those resources. They also can rely on Spanish troops. And when it comes to the Thirty Years War and even before then, one of the resources the Habsburgs try to rely on is Spanish garrisons in Italy which have got a network of roads that will take them right up into the Holy Roman Empire. They can get to places fairly fast. There's the famous Spanish Road that goes up, if you like. The current French German frontier, the Habsburgs, and on both sides, the Spanish Habsburgs and the Central European Habsburgs want to maintain the link. They intermarry with ruinous consequences, as we know.

[A]

What were the ruinous consequences of all this inbreeding.

[B]

By the 17th century, they have an 80% infant mortality, which is four times the norm, and that is due to catastrophic inbreeding. They're inbreeding for a purpose. Partly it's an aspect of the way marital policy reflects this idea of a great universal empire. It's also because, actually, Catholic princesses are in short supply. There was a time when, you know, you could marry Danes and Scots and any number of German duchesses. All of those have gone. They're no longer available. What you're left with are Bavarian duchesses who belong to the same religion but have a quite different political outlook. Bavaria is no friend of the Habsburgs. You're left with tricky Italian princesses. You're never quite sure what commitments their fathers have landed them, and by connection you into. Or you're left with Spain, and that is why they marry into each other, because there's nobody else left. So those are the basis of their relations. But it's not automatic.

[A]

Was the relationship between the Spanish and Austrian Habsburgs always cooperative?

[B]

In 1618, the news comes through to Philip III of Spain that there's been chaos in Prague and the imperial regents have been thrown out of a window. And his reaction is, oh, can we send a fleet to Prague? He has to be pointed out that Prague does not have a sea coast. At which point his ambassadors, his ministers gather round and there is a huge debate about what they do. Should they get involved at all with this squabble in a part of Europe about which we know nothing? Or should they get involved for the sake of the House? And this is really very touching. And it's only. They say, you know, we don't quite know what to do. And it turns out that somebody says, well, I'm afraid it's a bit too late, because the commander of our forces in Lombardy has already sent troops. So in other words, they have been committed behind the scenes by a minor official, and as a result, they join in the Thirty Years War. Without that, there's no guarantee that they would have participated in the 30 years war. They might have tried to stay aloof, regarded as a peculiar Central European problem.

[A]

Even with all these ties, were their policies aligned?

[B]

Despite these links, these links of vision and links of marriage, there is no guarantee of a convergence of policy.

[A]

And I suppose one reason they might well have wanted to stay out of the 30 years war is because they had been quite badly burned in the late 16th century, once Philip II, as Charles's successor, takes over the Spanish part, and that includes, we've said, the New World, but also the Netherlands, we have the Dutch revolt. And I wonder if we could just rewinding slightly, think about the role that plays in the unraveling of Habsburg authority across northern Europe and how internal Habsburg family politics shaped their response to that crisis.

[B]

No, whether they feel themselves that badly burnt, actually. I mean, they've managed to hold out despite the fact that the French are playing a duplicitous role, that England is involved up to its neck in the Dutch revolt, that the Dutch rebels are supported by a large number of German princes. They manage to hold out quite well and they manage in the end to put in a peace treaty that seems to give the best part of the Netherlands to Spain. Of course, we now know, we know with the advantage of hindsight, that Amsterdam, Rotterdam are going to become the commercial hubs of the 17th century. But at the time, it looks like those Walloon aristocrats living in what is now Belgium, that they are the people with the. If you like, the connections, and with the large amount of wealth and political expertise and contacts, it looks as if they've stabilised the situation as much as they want. Of course, no ruler likes to give up territory. And the Habsburgs under Philip III and Philip IV will continue to try and grab more bits of the Netherlands. They have been burnt. But they, on the other hand, they have done reasonably well in that conflict and they have remained financially in a position to help everybody who says, oh, Spain went bankrupt four times. What does that mean? It means that they play a fiddle on the bond market, that's all. It means they're still selling state bonds at a slightly higher interest rate and they're probably actually doing rather better on the bond market throughout the 16th century than governments in this country have done on the bond market. I mean, I wouldn't be too concerned for these claims of bankruptcy. They've still got the capacity. They can still. I mean, amazingly, they can pay their troops by the simple expedient of diverting treasure fleets up to Antwerp and unloading them at Antwerp and paying their troops there. Of course, there'll be times when they don't manage to. To pay the troops in time, such as 1576, when major mutinies throughout the Netherlands, but they have managed to put up with a demanding war and it is against a whole series of foes and managed to last out a reasonable length of time and ultimately secure a sizable chunk of the Netherlands for themselves.

[A]

Did they learn any major lessons from the Dutch revolt and its aftermath?

[B]

I mean, I think they're going to be wary, but I don't think that would be the deciding factor. I think it's what it means in terms of precedent, the decision that is ultimately taken in 1618. I think that's what they're worried about.

[A]

And what is the outcome of their involvement then for the Habsburgs in the Thirty Years War?

[B]

The thirty Years War really sort of ends up as a draw. From roughly about 1640 onwards, peace negotiations are going on. And I think there's some comment like in summer we fight, in winter we negotiate. They're trying to come to a solution because it has been draining in terms of resources and in terms of the devastation of the countryside with whatever it is. I mean, again, figures vary, but there is a considerable population loss, perhaps something like 10%, maybe more. So the war has been expensive and it's also linked in to wider conflicts. The Ottomans see what's going on and take advantage of it. Transylvania is able to consolidate itself, send troops into Ukraine and things like that. And there have been tremendous damage there. And also it's very wide ranging because bits of the conflict were fought abroad, they're fought in Taiwan and they're fought in what's called Congo, which is actually mostly in Mozambique today. So in other words, a very wide ranging conflict which draws in a lot of cash. But in a sense it consolidates the partnership between the two halves of the Habsburgs that they joined together militarily in there, these pictures of Frederick III with his Spanish counterpart on horseback and things like that, with I think the future Philip IV on horseback joining together consolidates in that respect.

[A]

And what came out of the piece.

[B]

Of Westphalia, the solution that is adopted in religious terms is the same as prevailed before, that the rulers will decide the religion, except that Calvinists are now allowed. And in political terms, that it's not just the big boys deciding the future of the Holy Roman Empire. Everybody else is going to be involved. And because this is an international conflict, even minor powers are going to be called to put their signatures down. Now, social scientists always talk about the Westphalian model. The idea of sovereignty now becomes accepted. Well, people didn't notice that at the time. Pufendorf writes afterwards to try and explain the Holy Roman Empire. He doesn't use words like sovereignty and state. He regards the Holy Roman Empire as a completely unusual phenomenon. He calls it. The word is quasimonstro, as if a monster, which people put like as if a leviathan. No, he's talking about it as a monstrosity that doesn't fit any pattern. That on the one hand you've got rulers who have very considerable powers and independent powers. You've got rulers with these very sovereignty, if you like, except that you have then a sovereign authority over them, and that sovereign authority is the emperor. But also the imperial courts that operate the Imperial chamber court and the whole welter of litigation going through the Imperial Chamber court is absolutely massive. Huge numbers of disputes within territories and between territories end up in the Imperial chamber court for adjudication by, if you like, a suprastate body. On top of that, you've got the court, as it's called. Historians would call it the Aulic court, to avoid having to repeat the word court. You've got the court, the court which hangs out in the Hofburg in Vienna and that is running an alternative form of jurisdiction, slightly more favorable to rulers. So you've got these, if you like, overarching bodies, let alone the Imperial Diet itself, which moves into perpetual session in 1654, passing what I suppose might be considered bits of legislation. And you've got a whole arrangements concerning the raising of revenues.

[A]

Did the idea of sovereignty really emerge from Westphalia, like people say?

[B]

So one can talk about, you know, the idea of sovereignty, but in the Holy Roman Empire, which is where most of the delegates that sign the Peace of Westphalia come from, it doesn't look as if you've got anything to do with sovereignty. But social scientists, they never read books, they just talk to each other and they're convinced that somehow Westphalia equals the idea of state sovereignty.

[A]

Well, with that, historian rebukes international relations as a field. Thank you so much for this overview of the rise of the Habsburgs, the ways in which they failed and the ways in which they succeeded. It's been very engaging and we've learned an awful lot. Thank you so much.

[B]

Thank you. My pleasure. Thank you very much.

[A]

Thank you for listening to this episode of Not Just the Tudors from History hit. Thank you also to my researcher, Max Wintool, my producer Rob Weinberg, and to Amy Haddo, who edited this episode. We are always eager to hear from you, including receiving your brilliant ideas for subjects we can cover. So do drop us a line. And not just the tudorsistorykit.com and I look forward to joining you again for another episode. Next time on Not Just the Tudors. From history hit.

[C]

Now you can fly anywhere in the world and pay discount prices on your airline tickets. Book a flight today to London, Paris, Madrid or anywhere else you want to go and pale a lot less guaranteed. Call the International Travel Department right now at low cost airlines, 8002-1551-4180-0215-5141. That's 800-215-5141.