The Maya and the Inquisition

Summary

Podcast Summary: "The Maya and the Inquisition"
Not Just the Tudors by History Hit
Release Date: May 8, 2025
Host: Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Guest: Dr. Amy Fuller, Lecturer in the History of the Americas at Nottingham Trent University
Transcript Timeframe: [02:37] – [52:57]

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Introduction

In the episode titled "The Maya and the Inquisition," Professor Susannah Lipscomb delves into the intricate and often dark history of the Maya civilization, particularly focusing on the devastating impact of Diego de Landa's Inquisition in the Yucatan Peninsula. Joined by Dr. Amy Fuller, an expert in early modern histories of Spain and Mexico, the discussion unpacks the cultural erasure and human suffering inflicted upon the Maya during the Spanish conquest.

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Diego de Landa: The Man Behind the Inquisition

[05:56] – [06:10]

Professor Lipscomb introduces Diego de Landa, a Franciscan friar born in 1524 in Cifuentes, Spain. Coming from a noble lineage, Landa was well-educated and joined the Observant wing of the Franciscan Order at the age of 16. This militant group was fervently committed to the conversion of indigenous peoples, believing it played a crucial role in the anticipated second coming of Christ. Landa's mission to the Yucatan was part of this broader objective to convert the Maya to Christianity.

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The Maya Civilization: Achievements and Resilience

[08:46] – [10:41]

Dr. Fuller provides an overview of the Maya civilization, highlighting their advanced understanding of time, mathematics, and astronomy. The Maya developed a complex calendar system with interlocking cycles, enabling them to predict eclipses with remarkable accuracy—“only 7 minutes of error over 32 years” ([09:01]).

In addition to their astronomical prowess, the Maya excelled in engineering and agriculture. They adapted ingeniously to their diverse environments across the Pacific coast, southern Mexico, Guatemala, and the Yucatan Peninsula. Their cities featured sophisticated irrigation systems and large reservoirs to manage water resources, particularly in response to droughts experienced during the Classic Maya period around the 9th century. Dr. Fuller notes, “there are so many cities still covered by jungle” ([10:46]), suggesting that ongoing excavations continue to reshape our understanding of Maya society.

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Religious Practices and Cultural Identity

[15:00] – [17:55]

Religion was deeply intertwined with daily life for the Maya. Dr. Fuller explains that every act had a religious dimension aimed at maintaining societal balance. Temples were perceived as sacred mountains, and natural elements held spiritual significance: “every piece of the natural world has a sacred element to it” ([15:13]).

Rituals and sacrifices played a central role in Maya religious practice. Contrary to earlier beliefs conflated with Aztec practices, Maya sacrifices included “auto sacrifice,” where rulers performed self-harm to display their connection with the divine. Dr. Fuller clarifies, “Autosacrifice, by which you mean that they sacrifice themselves? Yes” ([17:50], [17:55]). These acts were meant to appease the gods, but accounts of these practices are largely derived from Diego de Landa’s flawed and biased observations.

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The 1562 Auto Da Fe: A Turning Point

[21:02] – [26:40]

The discussion turns to the notorious 1562 Auto Da Fe orchestrated by Landa. In May 1562, Landa initiated a crackdown after two Maya youths reportedly discovered idols and skulls in a cave. This led to the arrest and brutal interrogation of thousands of Maya individuals. Dr. Fuller recounts the horrors: “They were strung up by their wrists and they were hoisted up with big, huge stones tied to their feet” ([21:50]), resulting in the torture and death of at least 158 people.

Landa’s Inquisition was marked by ruthless efficiency and manipulation. He justified his actions by asserting the urgency of eradicating idolatry, stating, “if they had proceeded according to the law... it would have taken 20 years” ([28:21]). Despite initial support, growing resistance and the arrival of Bishop Tyrell led to increased scrutiny of Landa's methods.

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Destruction of Maya Knowledge and Cultural Suppression

[29:50] – [35:41]

The Auto Da Fe had catastrophic effects on Maya culture and knowledge. Approximately 5,000 idols and at least 27 hieroglyphic rolls were destroyed, leading to irreversible loss of historical records. Dr. Fuller emphasizes, “there are so many cities still covered by jungle” which implies that much of Maya history remains hidden and yet to be discovered.

Landa’s own writings, once considered a key to understanding Maya script through his attempted syllabary, are now seen as heavily biased and corrupted. “He probably didn't write a lot of it himself either” ([32:13]), combining information from various sources to justify the Spanish conquest. This manipulation has necessitated significant efforts by modern scholars to disentangle authentic Maya culture from Landa’s distorted accounts.

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Diego de Landa's Downfall and Legacy

[36:05] – [44:51]

Despite initial support from Spanish authorities, Landa faced opposition after atrocities in the Yucatan were exposed. Bishop Tyrell's investigation led to Landa being challenged for his extreme methods. However, Landa’s manipulative prowess saw him presenting fabricated evidence to defend his actions, ultimately returning to Spain where he successfully justified his conduct to the Council of the Indies by May 1565.

Landa’s relentless ambition saw him named Bishop of the Yucatan in 1573, returning with handpicked friars to continue his mission. His legacy is marred by “a brutal torture and execution” regime and the systemic destruction of Maya cultural artifacts, which Dr. Fuller describes as “incomparable” in terms of damage ([37:43]).

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Evaluating Diego de Landa's Character and Impact

[47:33] – [50:16]

Dr. Fuller provides a critical assessment of Landa, portraying him as “incredibly intelligent, but just so ambitious and self-centered” ([48:14]). His actions reflect a blend of zealotry and vindictiveness, evident in his manipulation of events and people to maintain his authority and suppress Maya culture.

The repercussions of Landa's actions are profound. His biased and destructive approach has significantly skewed historical understanding of the Maya. Dr. Fuller asserts, “Landa's actions and the writings that he left have had a massive impact in terms of what we thought we knew about the Maya” ([50:16]). Modern scholarship has had to work diligently to correct Landa’s distortions, highlighting the resilience of Maya civilization despite such historical atrocities.

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The Future of Maya Studies and Cultural Revival

[51:49] – [52:30]

Despite the extensive damage caused by Landa, recent archaeological discoveries continue to shed light on Maya civilization. Ongoing excavations are uncovering new evidence that challenges previous assumptions, suggesting that “the future on this one is very bright indeed” ([51:49]).

Moreover, the Maya themselves are actively involved in the preservation and revival of their heritage. As Dr. Fuller notes, “generations of Maya are now starting to learn their ancient language” ([52:30]), ensuring that their rich cultural legacy is not forgotten and continues to thrive.

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Conclusion

The episode "The Maya and the Inquisition" provides a comprehensive exploration of Diego de Landa's role in the Spanish conquest of the Maya, highlighting the profound cultural and human losses inflicted during this period. Through Dr. Amy Fuller's expert insights, listeners gain a deeper understanding of the Maya civilization's complexities and the lasting impact of colonial aggression. The discussion underscores the importance of reevaluating historical narratives and recognizing the resilience of indigenous cultures in the face of systematic oppression.

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Notable Quotes:

• Dr. Amy Fuller [09:01]: "They could predict eclipses, the works that have been deciphered have found that they were able to record and predict future eclipses accurate to with only 7 minutes of error over 32 years."

• Dr. Amy Fuller [15:13]: "Every act that is done is done in order to help society continue, and that in itself becomes a kind of religious act."

• Dr. Amy Fuller [17:55]: "Autosacrifice, by which you mean that they sacrifice themselves? Yes."

• Dr. Amy Fuller [28:35]: "He suggests that the matter is so pressing that he had no choice. He is incredibly manipulative."

• Dr. Amy Fuller [48:14]: "He seems to be obviously incredibly intelligent, but just so ambitious and so self-centered and also incredibly vindictive as well."

• Dr. Amy Fuller [50:16]: "Landa's actions and the writings that he left have had a massive impact in terms of what we thought we knew about the Maya."

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Further Listening:

If you found this episode insightful, consider exploring other episodes of Not Just the Tudors that delve into the conquest of the Americas, myths surrounding figures like Hernán Cortés, the dark side of Sir Francis Drake, and the complexities of Christopher Columbus's legacy.

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Produced by History Hit. For more episodes and original documentaries, visit HistoryHit.com/subscribe.

Transcript

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Hello, I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb. If you'd like Not Just the Tudors ad Free to get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to historyhit with a historyhit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my own recent two part series A World Torn the Dissolution of the Monasteries and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com forward/subscribe.

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[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Hello, I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb, and welcome.

[Dr. Amy Fuller]

To Not Just the Tudors From History Hit the podcast in which we explore everything from Anne Boleyn to to the Aztecs, from Holbein to the Huguenots, from Shakespeare to samurais relieved by regular doses.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Of murder, espionage and witchcraft. Not, in other words, just the Tudors.

[Dr. Amy Fuller]

But most definitely also The Tudors.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

In recent episodes of Not Just the Tudors, we've embarked on a journey to unravel the myths surrounding the conquest of the Americas. Through indigenous voices and forgotten stories, we've uncovered tales of fierce resistance, cunning, survival, and alliances that defy the conventional narrative about figures like Christopher Columbus and Hernan Cortes. We've even taken a look at the dark side of another heroic figure, Sir Francis Drake. If you haven't yet explored these episodes, I urge you to go back and find them. In 1549, Franciscan Friar Diego de Landa first arrived on the Yucatan Peninsula. What followed was one of the most violent and complete cultural erasures in history. Initially fascinated by the Maya, Landa learned the Yucatec language to better understand and document their customs, religious ceremonies, and social hierarchy. But over time, as curiosity led to suspicion, Landa came to see the Maya as dangerously idolatrous and orchestrated a brutal and sustained Inquisition against them. Central to his campaign of suppression and conversion was the auto de fe, or act of faith, a public ceremony in which thousands of statues, artifacts and religious texts were destroyed, and, and with them, almost all preserved knowledge of Mayan language, history, and beliefs. We may never know exactly how much was lost. What remains to us now is merely a fragment saved through oral tradition, clandestine practice, and to some extent, in the records of Landa's own writings. And that's before we talk about the human cost, the brutal torture, torture and execution. Today, I'm delighted to welcome Dr. Amy Fuller, lecturer in the History of the Americas at Nottingham Trent University, to delve into the remarkable culture of the Maya and the devastating impact of colonial conquest. Dr. Fuller's research into the early modern histories of Spain and Mexico includes the brilliant Between Two Worlds, the Auto sacramentales of Sor Juana Ines de la Cruz, about whom she's spoken on this podcast before. Forthcoming is the edited volume Challenging Narratives of Conquest and Colonialism, out later this year. And her next monograph, the Eagle and the Creating the Conquest of Mexico, to be released in 2027. I'm Professor Susanna Lipscomb, and you're listening to Not Just the Tudors From History hit. Dr. Amy Fuller, thank you for joining us on Not Just the Tudors.

[Dr. Amy Fuller]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

So let's understand the man at the.

[Dr. Amy Fuller]

Heart of this story. Diego de Landa. Who was he and what had brought him to the Yucatan Peninsula?

So Diego de Landa was born in 1524. His full name is Diego de Landa Calderon, and he was born in the small Spanish town of Cifuentes, and he was of noble lineage, more so on his mother's side. On his father's side, he was more petty nobility, what we'd call hidalgo. But he was a man of means and he grew up in the household of the Count of Cifuentes. He became a page to the count by the age of 8 or 10. And he would have followed the count as he moved between his primary residence in Toledo and Cifuentes, both of which were castles. So Zalanda had quite a privileged upbringing. He would even have gone with the count to Rome, we think, because the Count became the ambassador to the Pope on the behalf of Charles V. And he was highly educated as well educated by Franciscans as well, which is quite important. He joins the Franciscans aged 16 and he is part of a particularly militant group of the Franciscans. They're called the Observant wing of the Franciscan Order. And he takes his vows aged 18. What's important to note, I think, about this particular part of the Franciscans is that they had a really, the Observant wing of the Franciscans believed vehemently that they would have a really important role in the second coming of Christ. They were the most ardent advocates of what we call millenarian ideology. And he would also have had some contact with friars who had been in the New World. They had visits at the convent where he was staying between 1541 and 1542 from Franciscan friars who had been to the New World. And so it seems like de Landis saw his duty in the Yucatan as part of his mission to go to the New World and take part in the conversion of the Maia.

So let us understand the Maya then. They've been referred to as one of the most advanced of all the pre Columbian societies in the Americas. What makes this so?

It's partly because they are the most enduring of the pre Columbian societies. It's probably important to note actually that they still exist, that the Maya still endure despite everything that they've been through, including genocides as recent as the 1980s in Guatemala. But it's partly because of their understanding of time and mathematics. So one of the most impressive things that we know about the Maya is their calendar. They had an incredibly complex calendar system that involved three interlocking cycles. So they would have a 365 solar year and then a cycle of 20 names and then a cycle of 13 numbers. And these cycles would interlock and you would have a 52 year cycle before any of these days would come up again. And we know that they could predict eclipses, the works that have been deciphered have found that the they were able to record and predict future eclipses accurate to with only 7 minutes of error over 32 years. We found tables also tracking the cycle of Venus with an error of only 2 hours over 400 years. So their understanding of astronomy is incredible. They're very much admired for that reason.

What about things like engineering and agriculture?

Yeah. So the Maya also were incredible at adapting into their environment. So most of the Maya civilization exists over a huge span between the Pacific coast in southern Mexico and Guatemala up to the Yucatan Peninsula. Across that geographical range, they were able to adapt the way in which they grew their food. Whereas back in Europe you would keep farming outside of the cities. The Maya had enormous complex city structures. And within their cities they would adapt every niche that they possibly could to growing food. We believe they used a slash and burn technique as well so that they would not exhaust the rainforest. And that meant that they could continue to feed their cities by turning over different parts of land and just exploiting every possible niche for their food. Their cities also incredibly impressive. They had very highly developed irrigation. Many of their cities had huge reservoirs in which they could store vast amount of water so that they could cope with drought. But that seems to have become a problem around the 9th century in what we call the Classic Maya. So that those are the cities that are in the Maya lowlands of Guatemala and southern Mexico. So around the 9th century, it seems as though we believe that there may have been a severe drought. They also had highly developed political hierarchies. And as the cities became bigger and grander and took the resources of the people, it seems as though the that coincided with a great drought. And so you get a double edged sword of drought and political unrest. As we believe that perhaps the Maya kings thought that they needed to create more and more elaborate ceremonies in order to appease the gods because of the drought. And this caused more and more resentment among the people. And it seems as though among the Classic Maya cities there may have been some and revolt. And it seems as though the cities were abandoned in some way around the 9th century. However, the problem that we have with the Maya is that there are so many cities still covered by jungle. And as more and more cities are uncovered, we find more and more evidence that suggests that we were wrong about a lot of what we know. So. So for example, one great theory is that the Maya starts in the south along the Pacific coast and gradually migrate northwards. However, more and more cities are being found in the north that are earlier than we previously thought. So it may be that we're kind of wrong about a lot of things. And, of course, also a lot of what we know about the Maya from deciphering the writing is about dynastic history. So we don't know very much about the everyday kind of normal Maya people. We also have a bit of a skewed idea about the abandonment of the cities, because the biggest piece of evidence that we have for that abandonment is the fact that people cease to create and write and create monuments with dates on and things like that. But that obviously doesn't mean that the city was necessarily abandoned. It just means that perhaps the elite were overthrown. So, unfortunately, there's a lot still we don't know about the Maya. And we are learning more practically every day as more and more cities are excavated. With every little piece of excavation, we learn more about the Maya.

And you've mentioned in the course of that, something of the religion. To what extent did it inform their cultural identity and what did it mean in terms of daily life and customs?

So, from what we know, there is no real separation between religion and daily life. Most Mesoamerican cultures, as far as we are aware, daily life is intertwined with religious practices. Every act has a religious aspect to it because it's all about keeping the world in balance and in order. So every act that is done is done in order to help society continue, and that in itself becomes a kind of religious act. They see the world in a completely different way to how we see it. And that's quite nicely illustrated by the way that they see their temples, for example, and how they saw mountains. So they saw their temples as sacred mountains. And the opening to a temple they would see as being like a cave within their writing. They don't draw a mountain, they draw the spirit of the mountain. So every piece of the natural world has a sacred element to it.

And what was the importance of ritual and sacrifice in this faith?

So what we know about the Maya sacrifice has been tainted quite a lot by Landa's account, which in itself is incredibly flawed, because we think that a lot of the descriptions of Maya sacrifice are actually taken from descriptions that are actually about the Aztecs. So our knowledge about the Maya and their relationship to sacrifice is certainly very flawed. We believe that auto sacrifice was very important and a lot more prominent than the kind of sacrifice that we would see among the Aztecs. So the excision of the heart, for example, and the Maya kings and queens themselves would be involved in displays of auto sacrifice that would be presented publicly we sometimes describe Maya temples as sacred stages on which the Maya kings and queens performed sacrifice, and auto sacrifice in particular.

Autosacrifice, by which you mean that they sacrifice themselves?

Yes. So for example, they would use instruments such as stingray spines. And there is one very vivid representation of a Maya queen who is pulling a rope with thorns through her tongue. And as she does this, she's burning incense. And out of the fire, out of the incense appears one of her ancestors. So ancestor worship is also very important to the Maya. We do know that children were also sacrificed. So there's no denying that human sacrifice did take place among the Maya. But it seems as though it's been inflated somewhat and also it's been mixed with accounts about Aztecs.

You mentioned that it was a queen who was performing that very painful sounding act of self sacrifice or self harm. How did the Maya rulers act as an intermediary between the Maya and their gods? I mean, did they?

Yeah. So we believe that the Maya kings and queens would almost take on the personality of a God. So we're not sure how divine they were or seen to be. It's very hard to know exactly. But if we think about in Europe, the divine right to rule, I guess it's a similar idea, but taken a lot further in that the Maya rulers would be seen to be in communication with the gods at least, and possibly semi divine themselves as well. And it seems as though these displays of auto sacrifice, at least public displays, were perhaps one way of keeping the population in check, possibly displaying how close a relationship they had with their gods, which in the end, for the Classic, maia, becomes a problem because then they show themselves to be almost useless if they can't stop, you know, things like drought from happening.

So what was Landa's perception of these customs when he arrived in the Yucatan?

It's very hard to know exactly. Landa's a very interesting person in that he only really tells us what he wants people to know. We know that he would have seen this as devil worship definitely, but we're not sure how much he would have witnessed himself because he was the second generation of friars to go to the Yucatan. So it's important to note that Landa isn't the first, you know, he isn't the first friar to be there. He isn't among the kind of earliest effort to convert in Yucatan. However, having said that, by the time he gets there, it's only really been, I think, seven years since the kind of final effort of conquest, which does end up being ongoing. It's not that there isn't continued conflict, but it's by no means an area that has been well converted by the time Landa gets there. But we're not sure how much he would have actually witnessed himself. We know that he gets told about it, but we don't know what he would have actually seen himself.

So tell me, then, about the 1562 Auto Da Fe, one of the most significant events of his career. What happened?

One thing to note is that there have been auto defeats previously, so it's not the first time. However, obviously it's the most well documented and it is, in its own right, horrific. So what happens is that In May of 1562, two Maya youths who are converted Christians stumble across a cave in which they find a number of idols and human skulls. They then go and tell Fray Pedro de Ciudad Rodrigo, who then tells them to gather up everything. So they collect all of the bones, all of the idols, and they pile them in a heap in front of the monastery. 40 Maya suspects are then brought into jail, into the monastery jail, and they're taken out one by one and questioned. They freely confess to owning these idols and they're continuing with their idol worship because they believe it will help their crops grow and it will help with their hunting prowess. They also go hunting around the neighbouring villages for more idols, and more and more people are rounded up. Then they take about 20 or 30 at a time and they're subjected to what's called the hoist, which means that they were strung up by their wrists and they were hoisted up with big, huge stones tied to their feet. If they didn't confess to having more idols, they were left for a while hanging there. And if they persisted to not confess, they were then flogged and they had burning wax splashed on them. So it's important to note there was no due process and no real authority to this. And then they decide to have an outer da fe against these people. They have idols tied around their necks on ropes. They wear the kind of headdress of shame. They're forced to stand through a mass and a ceremony and they suffer a prescribed number of lashes. Then they're fined as well, and they're returned to jail if they can't pay the fines. Now, Landa has probably authorised this. He certainly approves of this. And this is before the most famous haute defeber. It's important kind of contextual information, because that's how it begins. Now, Landa knows, because he's a very clever man, he's incredibly well educated and very well connected. He knows that if he's to continue, he needs the backing of the Spanish officials. And he's determined to kind of extend this inquiry to the ranks of the chiefs and the lords. And so he needs pressure from the Spanish authorities. As the provincial leader, Landa was empowered to conduct an episcopal inquisition under the terms of a concessionary papal bull. And so he goes about starting the process. He wants to make it very official. He has a prosecutor, he has a defender of the Indians, he has a notary. And he spends kind of three months undergoing mass arrests, savage and unselective torture of more than four and a half thousand Maya people. During that process, 158 die either during or as a direct result of the interrogations. We know that at least 13 take their own lives and a further 18 disappear and may also have taken their own lives. Many more of them are crippled by the torture, especially the hoist. Their shoulder muscles are kind of torn. Hands are paralyzed like hooks. And this, although he argues that he has the papal bull, it was completely unregulated. It was not like any other inquisitional trial because he also didn't take many records. And usually you would have very fastidious record keeping.

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[Dr. Amy Fuller]

So, I mean, Amy, how do we make sense of this? I mean, this is deeply horrific stuff you're telling us. Is Landa just a sadist? Why did he consider this necessary? How could it be possibly justified?

So the way that he justifies it is by saying that if they had proceeded according to the law and taken their time to investigate this thoroughly, it would have taken 20 years, and by that time they would have lost everyone to idolatry. So he suggests that the matter is so pressing that he had no choice. He is incredibly manipulative, though. And it's very obvious, really, that he's making sure that things happen as he wants them to. He uses the mayor of the Yucatan, Diego Quijada, as a political scapegoat. So he threatens him to be on board with the outer da fe, otherwise he'll kind of denounce him to the audiencia in Mexico. So. So we know that this is very much what Landa wants to happen, but the way he justifies it is that he says that, you know, the crimes of the Maya were so severe that he had no choice but to act.

And obviously you're telling us these stories of torture and execution, but also, this is a moment of cultural suppression insofar as it represents a great loss. What exactly happens to Maya knowledge?

During the process of the auto da Fe, about 5,000 idols are burned and at least 27 hieroglyphic rolls. Now, this isn't the only time that my artefacts and screenfold books are destroyed. So it's probably important to say that this destruction goes on after Landa's outed Fay, but he certainly helps in that. And now we only have five partial screenfold books left. So, so much of my kind of knowledge, understanding religion, et cetera, that we know of, comes from those four remaining screenfold books, or partial screenfold books that were sent back to Europe before Landa arrived. So most of them were sent back to Spain by Hernan Cortez, just as kind of part of the treasure that he took. And so this represents a huge amount of destruction in terms of our understanding of the Maya and their culture. But he also, for a long time, was held up as having preserved some of their culture through the writings that he created. But we've come to find out that actually A lot of what he wrote was corrupted by comparisons with the Aztecs, and also that he probably didn't write a lot of it himself either.

Well, this is fascinating because this is exactly what I was taught. We probably oughtn't to go into how long ago, but at university, I mean, there's certainly this idea that what we know about the Yucatan, what we know about Maya customs and beliefs and institutions, came from what Landa himself wrote down. But you're suggesting that this is now not really the position that historians take.

No. So the lone surviving manuscript that we have describes my history, society and culture. And it's kind of long been this treasured account and seen as an invaluable source of ethnographic information. But we don't think that Landa wrote half of it. Much of it comprises of passages that were abbreviated and even redacted from various other writings as well. It seems as though he took some of his information from Bartolome de las Casas, who wrote about the destruction of the Indies. And essentially what we have is, it seems as though he's creating a narrative of the conquest. And the outer da fe kind of is in there a tiny bit, but it's very much glossed over. But all of it is presented as being for the good of the Maya. And this is part of a kind of tradition, really, in Spain, where they are in the kind of 17th and 18th century, especially writing their justifications for the conquest after they've faced a lot of backlash, possibly even justifying the conquests themselves, as it's kind of the colonisation of the New World ends up kind of bankrupting them as well. But what you have in his writings, for example, are prophecies of the coming of the Spaniards, which you find in writings about the Aztecs as well. You have this idea that there's a tyrant in charge who's coveting riches, who's working with the Aztecs, who is engaging in slavery. You have, of course, a lot of discussion of sacrifice, and then you also have the injustices faced by the Maya that are presented almost like a trial that they had to go through in order to be converted to Christianity. But also they play an important role in suggesting that the friars have a really difficult job to do, which they do because, you know, they're faced with the people who have no idea who Christ is and don't speak the same languages, etc. But they kind of say that some of the Spanish settlers are also an impediment to conversion and that this kind of justifies the extreme acts that the friars had to take. But all in all, the. The account is kind of a bit of a hodgepodge of, you know, various writers and copyists, you know, some very kind of official writers as well, such as Juan Lopez de Velasco, the royal chronicler and cosmographer as well, and Antonio de Herrera y Tordesillas, who again, is one of the, like royal chroniclers. They all work together to create this account that helps to justify Spanish conquest, essentially. And what's been really held up as, you know, what's helped with our understanding of the Maya that is often presented as, you know, Landa's saving grace, if you like, is his syllabary. But that in itself helps confuse people because people thought that it was, you know, a key to the Maya language. But what it was, in fact, was Landa had his interpreter.

So one of the things that's often said to have been really valuable in delanda's relation is that there's a section on the Mayan Alphabet and that this is really instrumental when it comes to deciphering Maya script at these hieroglyphs that you've mentioned. Is that at least a saving grace?

For a long time it was thought that. That it was. But it was actually confusing people because what it actually was is the Spanish Alphabet, and it's in Mayan. So essentially what you have is Landa asks Antonio Gaspar Chi, his kind of main interpreter, to record the syllables of the Spanish Alphabet, each letter one by one. So a, be, fe, and he writes down those sounds in the Maya script. But that means that it's only a partial. You know, it doesn't contain all of the syllables that you find in the Maya language. But also, people for a long time didn't realize that was actually what it was either. So they thought it was the Mayan Alphabet. So it actually becomes incredibly confusing later on when people realize what it is. It does help in some way to unlock the sounds of the Mayan language and connect that to the Mayan script. But for a long time, it leads people in the wrong direction as well.

So even this aspect of it, which has for so long been held up as giving us the key to unlock Maya civilization, that he's preserved, that which he was seeking to erase isn't the case.

No, not at all. So, yeah, it's difficult to say how much in the end, he did help us to understand the Mayan script, and I guess a little bit. But the damage that he did is kind of incomparable, really.

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[Dr. Amy Fuller]

How are his actions seen in the wider world? I mean, were they supported by the Roman Catholic Church more generally and by Spanish authorities?

So what happens is that initially within the Yucatan, most of the people, aside from his friars, who are very loyal to him, are outraged by what's going on and there are attempts to stop him. So not long after the Outer Defe, Landa is urgently called to another city called Sotuta, to kind of answer for what he's done. We think this is partly because one of the Maya nobles, Lorenzo Kokom, who's a chief of one of the villages, kills himself in prison. And so I think that is partly why, is partly the catalyst as to why he's suddenly told to stop. But there are also kind of darker tales also of what's going on in other villages thanks to the Outer Defe and what it signals to those who would like to engage in that kind of horrific behaviour. So there are kind of other methods of torture used in other villages. For example, including kind of water torture is brought in and Landa initially kind of fights back. He isn't open to being criticized whatsoever and he actually bans any discussion of inquiries against him under threat of excommunication. So he's very much not going to be told by anyone. However, there's more and more disquiet. So a group of Spanish officials are just about to go to New Spain to Speak to the audience, which is the government of Mexico at the time, when they find out that a bishop Tural has arrived in the Yucatan to investigate what's going on. And Landa responds to the arrival of this bishop in a very interesting way. He goes on the offensive. He starts to gather more evidence. He obviously knows that the tide is turning against him and so he's going to be prepared for that. So he goes and gathers more evidence, even kind of confessions of practice of crucifixion in some villages. We have no idea kind of how true that was. It's very likely that it was completely made up. But basically Landa refuses to meet with the bishop until he's armed with all of these confessions and all of this evidence. And Tyrell, it seems, is quite a level headed bishop. So Tyrell examines these confessions. He confirms that Landa and his friars do have inquisitional authority, but he absolutely prohibits any further use of torture. And he is convinced that Landa has kind of gone rogue and that he, although he does have this authority, he doesn't have the authority to go as far as he has done.

Does Landa face repercussions?

Not really. So Landa works harder to kind of accumulate more evidence, strengthen his position, and eventually he goes back to Spain to fight his case just before he's forced to go to, to Spain. So it kind of, if he hadn't have gone when he did, he would have been dragged back, I think. So in February 1563, Landa eventually decides to go back to Spain to fight his case. Essentially, he's finally kind of been beaten on his home turf by Bishop Terrell, who does concede that he believes that some of these confessions are true. But he still is saying that, you know, Landa can no longer behave in such a manner. And Landa is hell bent on continuing his inquiries and continuing his reign of terror, essentially. So Landa goes back to Spain to plead his case. And as he's there, it seems as though he may have faced some repercussions initially. But he goes because the Council of the Indies are not happy with London, what he's been doing, and they do have an investigation against him. But he brings back evidence that the council haven't seen. And By May of 1565, the committee reached the conclusion that Landa had been justified in the assumption of episcopal authority to conduct the Inquisition and that the crimes of the Maya had been severe enough for him to act in the way that he did, which is obviously incredibly disappointing.

That's extraordinary. And so what ultimately became of him did he return to Yucatan?

So again, Landa's next steps show us just how manipulative he is and just how ambitious he was too. And seems to show us how he was happy to kind of ruin Freya's mission over there because he wasn't in charge. So until he could be in charge again, he was happy to kind of derail the mission of the Franciscans in the Yucatan until he's able to be in charge again. So, so what happens is that while Tyral is in the Yucatan as bishop, he has no support from the friars. And he continuously asks the Crown to send more Franciscan friars over to the Yucatan to help him, but the Crown doesn't. And many times Tyrell tries to resign as well. He finds the mission so awful that asked several times to be relieved of his post. Terrell has worked mainly in what's called Mexico now, which is kind of central Mexico, so the old Aztec Empire in Mexico City. He had spent time over there learning kind of Mexican languages, but he couldn't communicate in the Yucatan, he didn't know any Maya languages. And so that along with the fact that the friars just simply wouldn't work with him, he requested several times to leave. And he eventually heads back to Mexico City and dies there in 1571. And from what we can gather by this point, the Yucatan's in quite a desperate state in terms of the conversion process. And by the time he dies, there's still no further reinforcements in terms of friars in the Yucatan. And it's probable from the evidence that we have, that Landa actually blocked the recruitment to the Yucatan or for the friars because he was just so hell bent on ruining, you know, Tyrell's mission and ensuring that nobody else could be successful there. So in February 1570, the Franciscans request that the Crown send Landa back. And once the news of Tyrell's death reaches Spain, Landa was named Bishop of the Yucatan. And he arrives in October of 1573 with 30 hand picked friars to continue his mission.

Gosh, it's absolutely horrifying. So, Amy, there are two things I want to ask you about before we finish. First of all, Landa himself, the picture you've painted of this man is utterly dark. And the things that we had thought cast some light on his at least historical reputation over the last couple of decades, that he has at least preserved this knowledge of this culture, albeit one he was seeking to destroy, isn't even in his favour. What do you make of him as a person?

The more I read about Diego de Landa, the more horrified I am by his character, if I'm honest. He seems to be obviously incredibly intelligent, but just so ambitious and so self centered and also incredibly vindictive as well. One of the most vindictive things we think he did was that after the death of one of his key interpreters, Landa is told that this interpreter was involved in some acts of sacrifice. We're not sure if that was true or not. Obviously these were confessions made under duress. So Landa has the body of one of his he aides exhumed and he throws the bones into one of the pyres during one of the out of the fays. He also seems to have a very good understanding of how he could set people up to take the fall for him. So the mayor Quijada, who he threatens to take part in the initial big out of the FE of July 1562, he ensures that he's the one to take the fall. In the end, he's removed from his position because he seemed to be weak. And so Landa knows how to set up others to take the blame for his actions as well.

Finally then, Amy, given that Landa is a man who is perfectly happy to torture, to seek to destroy, this culture is driven by zeal and vindictiveness and a sense of manipulation and vengeance, we would say too, in the end, how much do you think our knowledge and understanding of the Maya has been shaped by this one man's actions?

Landa's actions and the writings that he left have had a massive impact in terms of what we thought we knew about the Maya. And we certainly had to undo a lot of what he's kind of left to us because even the information that he gave us about how Maya society was set up left out really important information. He doesn't talk about women in terms of their importance among the elite. For example, his discussions of the Maya women are very stylized and he presents them almost as victims of their circumstance. The way Landa has recorded information about Maya society has been so much based on earlier models of what was written about the Aztecs as well, that what we know from him has been very confused. And we've had to undo a lot of the damage that he's done in order to understand the way of life of the Maya. It's very different to, for example, the amazing work that we get from what's now called the Florentine Codex. One of his Franciscan colleagues in Mexico, who created an amazing encyclopedic work about the Aztecs in contrast with that, what Landa's left us is very poor.

I'm very glad that recent work is starting to uncover some more knowledge of this extraordinary civilization. And from what you've said, the fact that the cities are still being exhumed from the jungle means that the future on this one is very bright indeed.

Pretty much now understand the Mayan script and the Maya themselves are actually now taking a great part in ensuring that it's not forgotten again as generations of Maya are now starting to learn their ancient language.

That's wonderful. Well, Dr. Amy Fuller, thank you so much for giving us an insight into this pivotal moment in European understandings of the Maya. And of course, this moment that would have been absolutely traumatic for the Maya who lived through it. Thank you for your time.

Thank you for having me.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

If you enjoyed this episode, I think you'll also enjoy listening to episodes we've recorded recently about the conquest of the Americas and the myths of Zatova. Crude about Hernan Cortes and the conquest of the Aztec on the dark side of Sir Francis Drake and about Christopher Columbus. Also well worth a listen. Thanks for listening to Not Just the Tudors and to my researcher Alice Smith and my producer Rob Weinberg. And do join me, Professor Susanna Lipscomb next time for another episode of Not Just the Tudors From History Hit Foreign.

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[Holly Frey]

Our Skin Tells a Story Join me, Holly Frey and a slate of incredible guests as we are all inspired by their journeys with psoriasis. Along with these uplifting and candid personal histories, we take a step back into the bizarre and occasionally poisonous history of our skin and how we take care of it. Whether you're looking for inspiration on your own skincare journey, or are you curious about the sometimes strange history of how we treat our skin? You'll find genuine, empathetic, transformative conversations here on our skin. Listen to our skin on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.