The Mayflower and its Pilgrims

Summary

Not Just the Tudors: "The Mayflower and Its Pilgrims"

Host: Professor Suzannah Lipscomb
Guest: Professor John G. Turner (George Mason University, author of They Knew They Were Pilgrims)
Date: July 2, 2026
Podcast by History Hit

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Overview

This episode of "Not Just the Tudors" explores the real story of the Mayflower pilgrims—English religious separatists who, in 1620, risked everything in a dangerous transatlantic crossing in search of religious and economic freedom. Professor Suzannah Lipscomb interviews historian John G. Turner, who peels back the mythology to reveal the true complexities and challenges faced by the founders of Plymouth Colony. The discussion considers the Pilgrims’ radical origins, their time in Leiden, their treacherous journey, interaction with indigenous peoples, and the legacy shaped by figures such as William Bradford. The episode is rich with nuance regarding faith, survival, and the contested nature of liberty in the early colonial Atlantic.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Origins of the Pilgrims: Roots in Religious Dissent

[04:43 – 09:16]

• Radical Puritanism:
  • The roots trace back to the 1580s with radical Puritans totally disillusioned with the Church of England.
  • These separatists, also called "Brownists," were seen as seditious and subject to periodic persecution.
  • “Separatists were really good at separating from each other.” -- Turner [10:19]
• Resistance and Civil Disobedience:
  • They engaged in overt acts of nonconformity (e.g., private burials, unsanctioned marriages) making them visible targets for the Crown’s and Church’s ire.
  • The state viewed even moderate liberty in religious matters as a threat to social order.
  • “For them, that’s what the liberty of a Christian entailed: the ability to choose your own leaders, to discipline your own membership.” -- Turner [07:47]

2. Life in Leiden: Exile, Opportunity, and Anxiety

[10:07 – 14:49]

• Move to the Dutch Republic:
  • English Protestant dissenters fled first to Amsterdam, then to Leiden, forming scattered communities due to internal disputes.
  • Leiden offered economic opportunity and religious tolerance, crucial for these exiles.
• Fear of Assimilation:
  • Leaders feared loss of English identity and the moral laxity their children might absorb in tolerant Dutch society.
  • “They wanted their children…to remain English. They wanted them to adhere to their religious principles. So that was one motivating factor for leaving.” -- Turner [12:12]

3. The Decision to Leave: Economic Risk and Political Hurdles

[16:25 – 18:54]

• Not All Were Willing:
  • Risk-averse members of the community declined to emigrate; only about a third made the crossing.
• Securing Support:
  • Lacking wealthy backers, Pilgrims relied on outside investors with secular interests, foreshadowing later internal rifts.
  • The English Crown provided nominal permission: neutral but not outright supportive.
  • “These are a group of not very well positioned individuals undertaking a risky venture with uncertain backing and finances.” -- Turner [16:37]

4. The Mayflower Voyage: Delay, Disaster, and Arrival

[20:04 – 24:35]

• The Overcrowded Ship:
  • The failed Speedwell meant all were crammed onto the Mayflower, leading to miserable conditions and delayed arrival.
• Unexpected Timing and Location:
  • Late departure (early September) led to a November landfall on Cape Cod—far north of their intended destination and just as winter set in.
• Passenger Composition:
  • The group included investors’ recruits, indentured servants, and even orphaned children, making for a “ragtag” and divided contingent.

5. Encountering a Changed Land: Epidemics and Native Relations

[24:55 – 29:27]

• Devastated Landscape:
  • The region was recently ravaged by endemic disease (up to 90% mortality among Indigenous communities).
  • Abandoned villages, graves, and storehouses of corn indicated recent tragedy and absence.
• Initial Native Contact:
  • The Pokanoket (Wampanoag) leader Usamiquin (Massasoit) saw potential alliance amid intense native competition and population collapse.
  • “They understood the Pilgrims as a fraught opportunity…to form an alliance with newcomers that might redress this power imbalance.” -- Turner [29:27]

6. Making a New Political Order: The Mayflower Compact

[32:21 – 35:04]

• A Precedent for Self-Government:
  • Drafted on arrival, the Compact united this mixed community under a simple, collectively-governed political body.
  • Every adult male, regardless of background, was included—establishing the pattern of annual elections.
  • “They decide to form a body politic that includes pretty much every adult male passenger…They saw it as setting the foundation for their government.” -- Turner [32:43]

7. Tension, Violence, and the Limits of Idealism

[35:04 – 38:29]

• Myles Standish’s “Massacre”:
  • Pilgrims, uncertain and fearful, preemptively killed native leaders in a bid to assert their power and control trade.
  • Minister John Robinson wrote from Leiden, rebuking them: “It really would have been preferable if you had at least converted a few of them before you’d started killing them.” -- Turner [37:36]
  • “To the credit of the Pilgrims, they included that letter in their own histories.” -- Turner [38:09]
• Faith and Profit:
  • Pilgrims, especially the pragmatic Edward Winslow, saw no contradiction between piety and economic ambition.
  • “We could make religion and profit jump together.” -- Turner [38:44]

8. Plymouth Colony in Wider Context: Rivalries, Migration, and War

[40:34 – 47:29]

• Rise of Massachusetts Bay:
  • Archbishop Laud’s anti-Puritan policies sparked the ‘Great Migration’ north, relegating Plymouth to a peripheral role.
• Atlantic Rivalries:
  • Competition with Dutch and French colonies underscored Plymouth’s vulnerability and integration into wider economic and geopolitical rivalries.
  • New Netherland became a source of both commerce and, grimly, African enslaved people for New England.
• King Philip’s War:
  • Expansion and dubious land deals led to devastating native resistance in the 1670s (King Philip’s War), resulting in enormous suffering, especially among Indigenous communities.

9. William Bradford: The Governor and Chronicler

[47:29 – 50:48]

• His Leadership and Legacy:
  • Bradford’s long gubernatorial tenure offered stability and continuity.
  • His history, Of Plymouth Plantation, is witty, vivid, and foundational but necessarily narrow (reflecting one man’s viewpoint and erasing female and Indigenous voices).
  • “He comments that they were not mosquito-proof enough for the venture.” -- Turner [49:24]
  • “We’d certainly be far more impoverished if we didn’t have Bradford’s Of Plymouth Plantation.” -- Turner [50:38]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Separatists were really good at separating from each other.” – Turner [10:19]
• “Their ultimate aims were fairly modest: form their own churches, elect their own officers…But that was perceived as a radical challenge to the status quo and an affront against the Crown.” – Turner [07:47]
• “They wanted their children…to remain English. They wanted them to adhere to their religious principles. So that was one motivating factor for leaving.” – Turner [12:12]
• “These are a group of not very well positioned individuals undertaking a risky venture with uncertain backing and finances.” – Turner [16:37]
• “They decide to form a body politic that includes pretty much every adult male passenger…They saw it as setting the foundation for their government.” – Turner [32:43]
• “It really would have been preferable if you had at least converted a few of them before you’d started killing them.” – John Robinson (via Turner) [37:36]
• “We could make religion and profit jump together.” – Edward Winslow (cited by Turner) [38:44]
• “He comments that they were not mosquito-proof enough for the venture.” – Turner, on Bradford’s wit [49:24]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Civil Disobedience & Religious Liberty: [04:43 – 09:21]
• Leiden Exile and Motivation for America: [10:07 – 14:49]
• Internal Disagreement and Funding Challenges: [16:25 – 18:54]
• Voyage and Unexpected Arrival: [20:04 – 24:35]
• Native Context and Initial Contact: [24:55 – 29:27]
• The Mayflower Compact and Early Governance: [32:21 – 35:04]
• Native Relations and Myles Standish Incident: [35:04 – 38:29]
• Faith, Profit, and Colonial Expansion: [38:44 – 40:34]
• Massachusetts Bay Influence & International Rivalries: [40:34 – 44:26]
• King Philip's War and the Enduring Legacy: [44:26 – 47:29]
• William Bradford’s Influence: [47:29 – 50:48]

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Tone & Flow

The conversation is richly detailed, blending academic insight with human stories and wry humor. Professor Turner maintains historical nuance, gently correcting myths and emphasizing how fragile and contingent early Plymouth truly was. Both speakers portray the Pilgrims not as flawless founders but “complicated, divided, and deeply human people.”

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Summary Conclusion

This episode deftly dismantles the simplistic myth of the Mayflower landing, contextualizing it within broader religious ferment, Atlantic geopolitics, and native catastrophe. Through Turner’s expert lens, listeners are invited to see the Pilgrims and Plymouth Colony as neither pure heroes nor villains, but as actors in a messy, fascinating, and unfinished story of liberty, violence, and community.

Transcript

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

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[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Hello, I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb, and welcome to Not Just the Tudors From History Hit the podcast in which we explore everything from Anne Boleyn to the Aztecs, from Holbein to the Huguenots, from Shakespeare to samurais, relieved by regular doses of murder, espionage and witchcraft. Not, in other words, just the Tudors, but most definitely also the Tudors. A leaking wooden ship, a brutal Atlantic crossing, a freezing coastline at the edge of the known world, and a tiny group of English religious separatists gambling everything on the hope that God had chosen them for a new beginning. The story of the Mayflower has become one of America's founding myths. The reality of was uncertain and dangerous. The passengers who sailed in 1620 were fleeing the religious pressures of James I's England, where dissenters faced imprisonment and persecution for refusing to conform to the Church of England. In the last of four episodes leading up to the 250th anniversary of the American independence, we trace the Pilgrim's journey from clandestine congregations in England to uneasy exile in the Dutch city of Leiden, where poverty, political anxiety, and fears of losing their English identity pushed them towards an even riskier venture across the Atlantic. The voyage itself was filled with conflict. Investors rewrote contracts at the last minute. Passengers quarreled over authority, Storms battered the ship, and the failure of the companion vessel, Speedwell forced everyone aboard the overcrowded Mayflower. When they finally reached New England in the winter of 1620, they entered a landscape devastated by epidemic disease, where survival depended on fragile alliances with native leaders. We explore the creation of the Mayflower Compact, the harsh realities of Plymouth Colony, and the tensions between faith, commerce, survival and violence that shaped this extraordinary story. I'm delighted to say that joining me today is Professor John G. Turner, professor of Religious Studies and History at George Mason University in Fairfax, Virginia, and the author of they Knew They Were Plymouth Colony and the Contest for American Liberty. His work reveals the Pilgrims not as flawless founders, but as complicated, divided, and deeply human people. I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb, and this is not just the Tudors from history hit. Professor Turner, welcome to the podcast.

[Professor John G. Turner]

Thanks so much. Happy to be with you.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

We're going to be talking about 1620, of course, but how far back do we need to go to understand the origins of the Pilgrims? Where do they come from?

[Professor John G. Turner]

They really come from a variety of communities in England. I think it's probably best to start the story back in the early 1580s when you begin to have radical Puritans is probably the best way to describe it, who entirely give up on the Church of England as something that is impossible to reform and that the only thing that true Christians can do is to form their own true churches and men and women who advocate for that position. They're understood to be seditious by the Crown and the Church, and episodically they're persecuted. And by the middle of the first decade of the 1600s, those individuals begin to make their way to the Dutch Republic. And eventually at least some of them decide they don't want to stay there. They want a fresh start on the other side of the Atlantic.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

So when we think about their relationship with the state and with the Church of England, would it be fair to say they're refusing to conform or that the king and the state is being intolerant towards them?

[Professor John G. Turner]

For the most part, these were individuals who did a little bit more than quietly refuse to conform. I think for most people, you could probably get away with absenting yourself from services or from the Eucharist. You could quietly apologize if you were in A situation like that. These individuals who were known at the time as Brownists, for Robert Brown, a separatist back in the 1580s, the. They were more brazen in their opposition. Some of them would publicly signal their rejection of the Church of England. Others of them would do things like bury their loved ones on their own, apart from the ceremonies of the church. They would get married at times of the year when they weren't supposed to. All sorts of acts of nonconformity any single one of those people might have gotten away with. But, you know, a string of such actions tended to attract attention and sometimes persecution if local officials or bishops were interested.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

So you're sort of painting a picture of civil disobedience, really, in many ways. Would it be fair to say that they're the extremists? Their problem is not that they're being persecuted by an extremist state, but that they themselves do not think the state has gone far enough?

[Professor John G. Turner]

Well, I think that probably depends on one's perspective. So at the time, Puritans were in general considered extremists by the state. Everyone else hated separatists or Brownists because. Because they were the most radical of radical Puritans. And so other Puritans hated them because they gave Puritanism an even worse name. It allowed opponents of the Puritans to say, look, if we don't do something about these Puritans, we're going to get to a point where men and women want to tear the whole church down and tear down the foundations of society. On the one hand, these were individuals who, you know, their ultimate aims were fairly modest. They wanted to form their own churches, elect their own officers. For them, that's what the liberty of a Christian entailed. The ability to have the liberty to discipline your own membership, to choose your own leaders. In theory, they could have done this without really bothering anybody else. But that was perceived as a radical challenge to the status quo and also an affront against the Crown. It also denied, as certain other Puritans did as well, it denied that a monarch could be the true head of a church.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

So from their perspective, they're seeking a model of religious liberty.

[Professor John G. Turner]

Absolutely. For them, they that's what it meant to have the liberty of a Christian, to form a true church whose members could choose their own leaders, could choose a minister, could choose elders, could choose which members to admit, which members to discipline or expel. They saw the Church of England like an unruly inn who let everybody within its walls. They instead envisioned true churches that were like walled gardens, you know, little paradises that only allowed true Christians to walk among them.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

So those who decided to leave England traveled in large numbers to the Dutch city of Leiden. Why was this such an attractive destination for them?

[Professor John G. Turner]

Well, a bunch of English Protestant dissidents made their way to the Dutch Republic, usually going first to Amsterdam in the late 1500s, early 1600s, not surprisingly. These were kind of a fractious group of people. It's not as if they just formed one large group of separatists. Separatists were really good at separating from each other. And so when you had growing numbers of dissidents moving to the Dutch Republic, they couldn't all get along. And so they tended to break apart from each other. And one group of separatist dissidents, led by a minister named John Robinson, went to Leiden. Leiden was an attractive destination for a couple of reasons. One, one, there were economic opportunities. The growing textile trades provided work for these men. And Leiden, like most places in the Dutch Republic, extended a large measure of religious liberty to various sorts of movements. You know, there was an established Dutch Reformed Church, but only a minority of the population adhered to it. And especially if religious minorities weren't brazen in any critique of the established church or the government, they were more or less welcome to privately do their own thing, which is what John Robinson's church was able to do.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

And so they established themselves there. How did they manage to avoid assimilation? How did they maintain their unique religious identity?

[Professor John G. Turner]

The core group of individuals who later decided to leave Leiden and became the famous Mayflower Pilgrims, they were enlightened for around 10 years before they seriously contemplated leaving. So that wasn't a large amount of time. There were, you could say, just a number of expat English dissident communities in the Dutch Republic that were able to maintain their identity. But one reason they decided to leave is they didn't want to assimilate. And, you know, as the years passed, they grew worried about their children growing up and what they understood to be a place that was. While it gave them liberty, it also gave everybody license to sort of, you know, more or less do their own thing. And they didn't want their children to do their own thing. They wanted their children and grandchildren to remain English. They wanted them to adhere to their religious principles. So that was one motivating factor for leaving.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

And whilst they were there, how did they deal with the Dutch authorities?

[Professor John G. Turner]

Yeah, so for the most part, they were content to leave each other alone. John Robinson and his flock, they didn't have a particularly large public profile. They did sometimes take an interest in internal Dutch Protestant arguments about religion. And, you know, that was a potential flashpoint. The one thing that did make this relationship tricky is that the Dutch Republic had an uneasy alliance with the British Crown. And the Crown would sometimes lean on Dutch authorities to crack down or help them extradite English Protestant dissidents that were living in the Low Countries. And the Dutch authorities were pretty good about minimally complying with such requests so as to protect the liberty of their guests. And so the separatists were mostly able to navigate that. You know, there was concern about the political stability of the Dutch Republic as the 16 teens drew to a close. It wasn't a guarantee that religious minorities would continue to enjoy the same liberties that they had been accustomed to.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Do you have a sense of how the Pilgrim's time in Leiden shaped their identity and also their hopes for the New World?

[Professor John G. Turner]

One thing that it gave them is it gave them a dose of economic hope. You know, for the most part, these were men and women from not necessarily abject circumstances, but pretty humble circumstances. Grocers, printers, farmers. These were individuals who were unlikely to achieve wealth, prominence, civic privileges in England. Some of them prospered while they were in Leiden. William Bradford, who was orphaned at a fairly young age and later became the governor of Plymouth Colony for most of its first four decades, he prospered in Leiden. He was able to acquire a fairly stately house. He did well. And the group of congregants who decided to start a colony across the Atlantic, they hoped that they would continue to prosper economically and that that greater prosperity would make their religious principles a bit more attractive to people who might be sympathetic to them back in England.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

So as we come to the 1620 voyage, we know it itself is fraught with tension and disagreement. What were the biggest challenges before they even set sail?

[Professor John G. Turner]

They had all sorts of challenges. I mean, first of all, not everybody in the congregation thought this was a good idea. They weren't entirely naive. They knew that planting a colony was a pretty risky proposition. They knew about the travails of the Jamestown settlers. They knew about some other failed colonial ventures and shipwrecks. So a lot of people in the congregation just wanted nothing to do with this, which is one reason why ultimately, only about a third of the congregation makes the crossing. Then the. Another enormous hurdle is money. They don't have the resources to outfit themselves for an Atlantic crossing and the planting of a colony. So they need investors. They need people to back them financially. That's a fairly fraught endeavor because there isn't a group of wealthy separatists that they can turn to. So they have to turn to people who don't share their religious principles, but who see some economic potential in their venture. They also have to navigate a relationship with the Crown as they prepare to do this. At first they're not sure should they try to do this under the aegis of the Dutch Republic, or should they seek a patent from the English Crown? Ultimately, they choose the latter option. And the response that they get is essentially the Crown won't object to their crossing, but doesn't exactly give it its blessing either. They're subsequently able to obtain patents, but that's a complicated proposition as well. So these are a group of not very well positioned individuals undertaking a very risky venture and with uncertain backing and finances.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

And who else joins the pilgrims on their journey?

[Professor John G. Turner]

So when a portion of the congregation prepares for the voyage in London, they end up being joined by really a couple different groups of individuals. So the group of investors that backs them also invites other individuals to join the venture. Some of those individuals might have been sympathetic to separatism, but many of them weren't. So in terms of religion, it was a bit of a mixed multitude. And then there are servants who are also attached to the venture. There's one story that I've often found quite interesting. There's a group of four, I think, orphaned children who are attached to several separatist families at the last minute. So it's a bit of a ragtag group from the outset. And that's one of the things that causes some fault lines in the colony as it gets underway in the years ahead.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

So tell me about the journey. What was the voyage like?

[Professor John G. Turner]

So it was supposed to be a voyage on two ships, the Speedwell and the Mayflower, and it should have taken place a couple of months before it did. You know, an Atlantic crossing at the time could take seven or eight weeks. And in an ideal world, if you're beginning a colonial venture, it'd be nice to arrive in what became known as New England. It'd be nice to arrive there maybe in September. You know, if listeners could imagine New England in September, you know, the leaves are just starting to turn color, it's still warm. You might be able to build some houses and get yourself situated before winter. But because of twists and turns in obtaining financing and provisions, the venture doesn't get underway until early September. And it doesn't get underway very well because one of the ships springs a leak that turns out not to be Repairable. Some of the passengers later on accuse that captain of sort of chickening out, but let's just presume the ship wasn't seaworthy. That means not everybody can cram into the Mayflower. So some passengers disembark when the ships have to return and they have to abandon the Speedwell. I think there are some passengers who count their lucky stars that they're back in England instead of crammed into the Mayflower. So then the crossing really gets underway in September, and they reach the tip of cape Cod on November 9th. And particularly in the early 1600s, it's basically early winter. By early November in Cape Cod, they also didn't really end up where they intended to go. They intended to go somewhere sort of north of the Hudson River. So it would, in theory, have been around what's now eastern Massachusetts, around Cape Cod and along the coastline to the south. And they do make an attempt to head that way after reaching land, but it proves too treacherous.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

I'm just about to ask you a question about the sort of world the pilgrimage encountered when it dawned on me that at some point they started calling themselves Pilgrims. When was that? Do we know? Is that a much later name, or is it what they're calling themselves at the time?

[Professor John G. Turner]

No, that's a fantastic question. And the name is a bit of an anachronism. So they did not commonly become known as the Pilgrims until the early 1800s. So we could choose to call them something else. We could just call them the Mayflower passengers or the Plymouth Colonists. We could call them the Separatists if we wanted to, though they weren't all Separatists, so we don't really want to do that. Sometimes I think questions of anachronism are tricky in history. I think sometimes in the end, it's better to call people what they have become known as, even if it's slightly anachronistic. William Bradford, in his history of Plymouth Plantation, he referred to a passage in the New Testament Epistle to the Hebrews at a time when the passengers parted from their fellow congregants in the Dutch Republic. And when he looked back on this moment, everyone was crying. Everyone was uncertain about the future. They were uncertain about whether they would see each other again. And then he writes, but they knew they were Pilgrims and essentially fixed their eyes not on their earthly travails, but on their heavenly destination. So these individuals did think of themselves as Pilgrims in a generically Christian sense. They just didn't think of themselves as the Pilgrims, the way Americans later began referring to them.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

That's so interesting. And there is something there about the way that they've become mythic with being given that title, with the definite article. But anyway, let's go back to the narrative, to the story. When they arrived, whatever we're going to call them, what sort of world did they find in Cape Cod?

[Professor John G. Turner]

First of all, the journey had gone rather well. So despite the fact that they left late, despite the fact that they encountered terrible storms, all of the passengers made it. One sailor perished. And I think the colonists probably didn't think that was a great loss, because these sailors were kind of crude, profane individuals. So they encountered a world for which they were utterly unprepared. And what they did was essentially start tromping around Cape Cod and getting a sense of their environs. And they found an unusual human landscape. So they saw abandoned settlements, but recently used settlements. They found freshly dug graves, some of which they excavated and rooted around in. They found caches of corn. So they found a landscape that had all sorts of evidence of human activity. But at first they didn't see any other people, and they were being watched and observed. And after they continued to explore the Cape, they had some sightings of native people. And then there was an initial skirmish in which I don't think you could say that they were attacked. It's more that they were sort of probed. This wasn't a battle. It was sort of a time at which a group of native people sort of made themselves known and certainly made the adventurers we could now call them, sense that they might not be welcome. This was all a lot for the Mayflower passengers to take in. I think they were filled with a lot of dread and uncertainty, and they had a tremendous urgency to find a place for a settlement where they could begin constructing shelters from the elements. And it took them about a month before they found that location. It was a location that they already understood to be called Plymouth or New Plymouth from a name that John Smith of Virginia fame had given to a native settlement, you know, on the other side of Cape Cod Bay. So it took them a little while to find that place. And by the time they found that location, they were in bad shape. There were growing number of passengers who were sick and beginning to die, mostly from scurvy and malnutrition. And so that very much added to that sense of urgency.

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[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

And so their initial interactions with Native Americans were fraught, but things change, and they manage to reach an alliance. How does that happen? And what impact does that have?

[Professor John G. Turner]

So when they first come ashore in what they understand to be New Plymouth, they were coming ashore at a place that, to the natives of the region, was known as Patuxent, which was a formerly thorough thriving community that had been decimated by an epidemic over the previous few years. Historians still are not quite sure of the exact pathogen that caused the epidemic, but in portions of southeastern New England in particular, the mortality rate seems to have reached around 90%. So you had formerly thriving communities that were wiped out. The native peoples of the region went by a variety of names. They have subsequently become known generally as Wampanoag, which is an umbrella term that's also a bit anachronistic. The most powerful or influential community in the region was Pokanokut, which was led by a sachem whose name is most commonly known as Usamiquin. He and his people had been decimated by this epidemic. They had powerful native enemies to the north and the west that had been largely unscathed by the epidemic. They understood the Pilgrims as a fraught opportunity for them to form an alliance with newcomers that might redress this power imbalance. And so when the Mayflower passengers came ashore and began constructing a fort and houses, the Pokanokets observed the situation for a couple of months and then decided to approach them and make overtures. Both sides were very wary of each other. Even though they were interested in an alliance, the Pokanokets knew that Europeans had a reputation for showing up on the New England coast and abducting natives and carrying them back to Europe as either interpreters or to be sold as slaves. So they were definitely wary. But eventually, the two sides conclude what can best be understood as sort of a rudimentary mutual defense treaty, that they're going to defend each other in the event of attack.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Now, one of the things that happens over the course of that winter, brutal winter, is that they're obviously facing lots of death and despair, but. But they also managed to forge a new political order they're famous for their pioneering governance in the form of the Mayflower Compact. How radical was it really for its time?

[Professor John G. Turner]

So that's a great question. The Mayflower Compact, it used to be a cornerstone of American civics. You know, school children would be taught that this is part of the foundation of the American republic. So it used to get all sorts of weight that it probably didn't deserve, but I think it's nevertheless, it is quite remarkable. So this came about in a rather slapdash way after the Mayflower reaches Cape Cod because this was a bit of a mixed multitude and the various groups of passengers, they weren't really certain they wanted to work together and form a common settlement. And so they hash out this compact after reaching the Cape. This is not something that's designed back in England and it's a pretty simple agreement. I think the most significant part of it is the decision to form a body politic that includes pretty much every adult male passenger among the colonists. It includes servants, it includes people of various religious principles and it states that, you know, they're going to commonly select officers and form laws right after the passengers subscribe to it. They elect John Carver as their governor for the next year. And this sets a precedent of holding annual elections that stands for the next 70 years of Plymouth Colony's self governing existence. The later generations in the colony understood this as significant. When they would meet to revise their laws, they would read the compact aloud. They saw it as setting the foundation for their government.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Now one of the challenges of the government of the colony and the leadership was, was the constant relations with native peoples. And a turning point seems to be the massacre led by Marle Standish. What does that reveal about the settlers mindset and fears?

[Professor John G. Turner]

The Pilgrims are pretty fearful and uncertain about the world that lives beyond their fort. It's a world they don't understand very well and they don't really know who to trust. You know, they have native allies. There's a few individuals who can speak English actually because of episodes of abduction and forced labor for past English ship captains, they're in a confusing situation. And different Native allies often tell them different things about potential threats. So they're often not quite sure what to do. And a few years after the establishment of the colony, there's another group of Englishmen who are to the north on the rim of Massachusetts Bay, interacting with a different group of native peoples that at the time are known as the Massachusetts. And the Plymouth Pilgrims don't much like the existence of this other English outpost. I Think they see it as a threat to their trade. They're also being told by Usamiquin that the Massachusetts are planning to attack Plymouth. May or may not have been true. And the pilgrim's military, Captain Miles Standish, who was very diminutive, another English writer, later dubbed him Captain Shrimp. He led a military expedition to the north, and the Pilgrims took the offensive. They decoyed some native leaders into an enclosed space and murdered them and then killed several other natives in that operation. It did for them have two practical benefits. It gave some evidence of their military prowess in the region. It also eliminated a competing English outpost in terms of the fur trade. It also very much dismayed their minister, John Robinson, who is still enlightened. He never made the crossing. You know, he wrote a letter to them that critiqued them and said, you know, it really would have been preferable if you had at least converted a few of them before you'd started killing them. Rather poignant rebuke. I think it's actually to the credit of the Pilgrims that they included that letter in some of their own histories of their colony.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

And actually, that leads me to another question, which is how did they balance the religious ideals that many of them had brought that had motivated this journey with these practical demands of survival and politics?

[Professor John G. Turner]

So Mayflower passenger Edward Winslow, who was one of the more prosperous and cosmopolitan among the separatist Pilgrims, he had a line in one of his tracts about the colony in which he said that they could make religion and profit jump together. He was very forthright about the fact that we could do both of these things at the same time. I don't know that that particularly was a tension in the colony. I think everyone wanted to prosper economically, and they didn't see that as conflicting with their religious principles. It did lead them into conflict with other Europeans in the region, because from a pretty early point, say by the mid-1620s and even in a more pronounced way by the 1630s, Plymouth is in competition with Dutch settlers to the west and the Massachusetts Bay Colony to the north to get the best access points for the fur trade for a time. They're actually pretty successful in establishing economic preeminence in this respect. Also, all of these various groups accuse each other of terribly unchristian behavior as they pursue wealth. I think within the colony, you know, there is the desire for the venture to prosper. I think the real fault lines came about because not everyone who came to Plymouth shared the same separatist principles.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Yes. And I suppose we need to remember that the colony is never Isolated from events in England, where we've got the rise of Archbishop William Laud and he looms large in the story. What impact did his policies have on the colony on the other side of the Atlantic?

[Professor John G. Turner]

I mean, things are already underway to the north of Plymouth, around Massachusetts Bay, before Laud's campaign of persecution against the Puritans really reaches its peak. But the primary effect is that you have what becomes known as a great migration of Puritans to Massachusetts Bay. I think for the Plymouth colonists, after a couple of years, they sail to the north and they see Massachusetts Bay and the Charles river. And I think a lot of them think, oh, maybe we should have settled here instead. Maybe this is a better place for a colony. Plymouth, in certain respects, becomes a bit of an economic backwater as the Bay Colony to its north grows in terms of population, military clout and economic developments. So a main effect for Plymouth is kind of becoming eclipsed by its larger colonial neighbor to the north.

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[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

And I suppose there's also a broader Atlantic context here to think about. Threats from the Dutch and the French. How can understanding that change our perception of this story?

[Professor John G. Turner]

Well, I think the main way it can change our perception of the story is by understanding the economic rivalry that Plymouth found itself in. There are some fierce conflicts with the Dutch in the 1630s. It's not only a question of rivalry. There are some ongoing commercial and religious connections between the Dutch colony of New Netherland and Plymouth. There's some individuals who go back and forth between the two colonies in later decades. New Netherland is also a source from which African slaves are are brought to the English colonies in New England. So there's a lot of complicated interactions which I think help us examine elements of these colonies that are sometimes forgotten.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

And if we fast forward a little up to the 1570s, we get to a devastating conflict. King Philip's War, that really tests Plymouth Colony's resilience. How do you think that reshapes the colony and its future.

[Professor John G. Turner]

So typically Plymouth Colony, in most accounts of American history, it's largely forgotten after the mythical first Thanksgiving and especially once the Bay Colony gets underway. But Plymouth becomes the epicenter of of a devastating regional war in the mid-1670s. The catalyst for this is that the Plymouth colonies are expanding to the west. So back in the 1620s, the alliance between Usimiquin and the Poconokets and other Wampanoag communities and the colonists, it's mutually beneficial at first. It strengthens the position of Usamiquin vis a vis other native communities and bolsters him militarily in the wake of the epidemic. But things are totally different a half century later. Native communities have been further weakened by subsequent epidemics and English settlements grow in a way that USA Miquin and other natives in 1620 could not have predicted. And English settlements push native peoples off of their land. There are a lot of land transactions that I think are a bit dubious. There's various ways that English settlers acquire land that are not through conquest but are not without a lot of coercion. And eventually Usamiquin's descendants, namely Metacomet, who becomes known by his English name of Philip, begin to aggressively resist English inroads. And in 1675, skirmishes erupt into an all out war that is devastating for English settlements, not just in Plymouth, but but also in the Massachusetts Bay Colony and in Rhode Island. You have whole English settlements that are destroyed and emptied. But in the end, it's far more devastating for Metacom and not only his allies, but really all of the native peoples of New England, many of whom are reduced into slavery and servitude during and after the war.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

I'd like to end, if we may, by talking about someone you've already mentioned, William Bradford. And both thinking of his long tenure as governor and his writings, how did he shape the colony and above all, its legacy?

[Professor John G. Turner]

So Bradford, you know, he's part of this congregation in Leiden. He's a separatist who is thrilled at the events in England of the 1640s and sees in them to some extent his own religious principles triumphant. So he feels rather affirmed in that respect. By the end of his life, he is a bit dismayed that Plymouth has been overshadowed by its larger neighbors. Branford, I think, bequeathed a couple of gifts to his colony and to later generations of people who have studied it and valued it. Number one, his long tenure as governor. So year after year, Plymouth's body politic, as formed in the Mayflower Compact, reelected him as governor. There were a couple of years in which he was not elected governor. There are a couple little gaps in his service that doesn't seem to have in any way been traumatic for him. To some extent, you know, this was a body politic that functioned reasonably well. And then Bradford's history is his enduring gift. More or less a year by year account of the colony during its first several decades. Actually, in pretty lively prose, he has a nice comment about a group of settlers who didn't share his principles, who came to the colony and then departed. He comments that they were not mosquito proof enough for the venture. So, you know, these Puritans and pilgrims and separatists, they're generally regarded as a pretty stodgy, not overly fun group of individuals. But Bradford, he has a pretty keen wit in his history as well. So it's pretty enjoyable to read. It does have the weakness of privileging his perspective. So we don't have the perspective of a lot of other people involved in this history. We don't have any writings from female passengers on the Mayflower. We mostly get our understanding of the native peoples of the region from English men who describe them. Nevertheless, we'd certainly be far more impoverished if we didn't have Bradford's of Plymouth Plantation.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Well, thank you so much for talking to us about the Mayflower as we come up to this anniversary. And for those who want to know more, they can turn to they Knew they were Pilgrims. That's by Professor John G. Turner, my guest today. Thank you so much for your time.

[Professor John G. Turner]

Thank you, Susanna. My pleasure.

[Professor Susannah Lipscomb]

Thank you for listening to this episode of Not Just the Tudors from History Hit. Thanks also to my researcher, Max Wintle and my producer, Rob Weinberg. We are always eager to hear from you, including receiving your brilliant ideas for subjects we can cover. So do drop us a [e-mail] and I look forward to joining you again for another episode. Next time on Not Just the Tutors from History. Hit.

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