← Not Just the Tudors
Not Just the Tudors
When Women Ruled the Low Countries
00:51:07
The fascinating stories of Mary of Burgundy's courageous rule and Margaret of Austria's diplomatic brilliance
Loading summary
Transcript77 lines
- [00:00]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Hello, I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb. If you'd like Not Just the Tudors ad Free to get early access and bonus episodes, sign up to historyhit with a historyhit subscription. You can also watch hundreds of hours of original documentaries, including my own recent two part series A World Torn, the Dissolution of the Monasteries and enjoy a new release every week. Sign up now by visiting historyhit.com subscribe.
- [00:32]
Oregon Lottery Representative
In the summer all of Oregon is our playground thanks to our incredible park system. That's why it's so cool that Oregon Lottery gameplay like video lottery or cash Pop helps support tons of parks projects statewide like accessible trails at Silver Falls State park or upgrades to your favorite dog park in Newburgh. It's just one way a little lottery play for many Oregonians can add up to a lot of good the Oregon Lottery Together we do good things. Lottery games are based on chance and should be played for entertainment only. Must be 18 or older to play.
- [01:03]
Regain Couples Therapy Representative
This is an ad by Regain Couples Therapy and features real testimonials.
- [01:08]
Couples Therapy Client 1
This was our first time trying therapy.
- [01:10]
Couples Therapy Client 2
And honestly, it was long overdue.
- [01:12]
Couples Therapy Client 1
Looking back, we just wish we had started sooner.
- [01:15]
Regain Couples Therapy Representative
Regain's qualified therapists help couples when they can't get there on their own.
- [01:20]
Couples Therapy Client 2
We thought it was intimacy issues, but Andrea helped us uncover a deeper root cause we hadn't even realized was there.
- [01:27]
Regain Couples Therapy Representative
Visit regain.com couplespod to get 10% off your first month couples therapy that works.
- [01:34]
Couples Therapy Client 1
Have you ever wondered how your body naturally repairs and rejuvenates itself? It all comes down to your stem cells. Your body's built in repair system that renews tissue, restores balance and helps you feel your best. But by age 30 you have up to 90% fewer stem cells in circulation. That's where Stem Regen comes in. Founded by stem cell scientist and health pioneer Christian Dropo Foundation, Stem Regen products are designed to support your body's natural repair system by using science backed plant based extracts, just two capsules of STEM regen releases an average of 10 million of your own stem cells into your body. No injections, just two capsules empower your body to rejuvenate from within. Whether you're focused on recovery, longevity or just overall wellness, Stem Regen can help release more of your health, more life and more of the best version of you. Try IT now at StemRegen Co and use code POD20 for 20% off your first that's StemRegen CodePod20.
- [02:36]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Hello, I'm Professor Susannah Lipscomb and welcome to Not Just the Tudors from History. Hit the podcast in which we explore everything from Anne Boleyn to the Aztecs, from Holbein to the Huguenots, from Shakespeare to samurais, relieved by regular doses of murder, espionage and witchcraft. Not, in other words, just the Tudors, but most definitely also the Tudors. The story of female power in the Netherlands is one of strategic marriages, political cunning, personal loss, and remarkable resilience. Across five generations, a lineage of women from Mary of Burgundy to Isabella Eugenia helped shape the destiny of the Low Countries at pivotal moments in European history. In a world where female sovereignty was often questioned or undermined, these women carved space for themselves and safeguarded their dynasties with astonishing skill. It begins with Mary of Burgundy, the last independent ruler of a vast and splintering Burgundian realm. Thrust into power, she handled the military aggression of France with courage, political clarity and and a shrewd marriage to Maximilian of Habsburg, an alliance that would birth the future Habsburg Netherlands. Her brilliant daughter, Margaret of Austria, emerged from heartbreak and double widowhood to become one of Europe's most powerful women, governing the Netherlands and raising the future emperor Charles V. Mary of Hungary. Charles sister succeeded Margaret and ruled as Governor General for nearly a quarter of a century. Unlike her charismatic aunt, Mary was stern, competent and authoritative, ensuring stability through religious tension and growing imperial pressures. Her successor, Margaret of Parma, born illegitimate but raised as a princess, continued the legacy. She governed during one of the most volatile periods of Dutch history, laying the groundwork for future revolt. And finally, there was archduchess Isabella Clara Eugenia, the first surviving daughter of Philip ii, a fierce supporter of a post Reformation Catholic church and best known for her diplomatic skill and support of the arts during a time of religious and political upheaval. So, Mary Margaret. Mary Margaret, Isabella Clara Eugenia. Got that? Today I'm talking to the historian Dr. Nathalie Donnell, whose vivid substack feminist histories has brought these rulers to life. Dr. Donnell is the author of a forthcoming article about Catherine de Medici in the prestigious 16th century journal and has recently defended her thesis at Viva. Together we'll be exploring how these formidable women left their mark on early modern Europe. I'm Professor Suzanne Lipscomb, and this is not just the tudors from history. Dr. Now, welcome to the podcast.
- [05:39]
Couples Therapy Client 2
Thank you so much for having me. Happy to be here.
- [05:42]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
15Th century Burgundy is one of the wealthiest and most sophisticated duchies in Western Europe. Tell me about it. Give me a flavor of what this realm was like.
- [05:52]
Couples Therapy Client 2
The Duchy of Burgundy became a cultural leader for the high and late Middle Ages. It became really well known for arts, for tapestry, music. It peaked under the reign of Charles the Bold, who was the final sovereign Duke of Burgundy. And his one surviving daughter, Mary, became the final sovereign Duchess of Burgundy. And neither of them ruled for all that long. Charles the Bold was killed at the Battle of Nancy in 1477 and was kind of struck down in his prime. He was this very powerful ruler who had this kind of epic rivalry with the King of France, who was always trying to take back pieces of or the entirety of the Duchy of Burgundy. It's probably, it's important to say that Burgundy had originally been part of the Valois dynasty of France. It was in the early Hundred Years War, the King of France had bequeathed Burgundy to his son, and from then on it was sovereign. It wasn't just like a normal appanage of France, like was so often given to sons of kings. It became its own sovereign region. And very quickly after coming from your relatives of both being ruled by Valois, they obviously became great rivals. And through the years, the further the French kings got from the decision to bequeath Burgundy, the more the kings of France resented the fact that had been done and really wanted to take control of it again.
- [07:35]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And Mary of Burgundy had a childhood that was lonely. She's isolated from her mother. How common a practice was that?
- [07:47]
Couples Therapy Client 2
It was quite common, especially in her case, she was the only child. And so it was very important that she both have a well rounded but safe education and upbringing. Early life. Her parents were very strong partners and very active in the governance. And so she was kept kind of safely away from their court. And she actually was not at all close with her mother. She didn't see her from the time she was a toddler until actually her mother was traveling to have a grand reunion with Mary after, gosh, close to a decade, and she died on the way there. And so Mary really didn't have any direct relationship with her mother. And it was only after her mother had died that she started to spend more time. She was brought back to the court in Brussels to be closer to her grandmother, Isabel of Portugal, and her father, but only after losing her mother.
- [08:46]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
One of the things that makes us really feel the difference of the 16th centuries is this attitude to parenting, isn't it? It is so different. They would of course, have had attachment figures, to use modern psychotherapeutic language, but they just wouldn't have been their parents. Let's go back to that threat that the King of France posed. So Louis XI of France became perhaps the greatest threat to Burgundy's independence, but he's also Mary's godfather. How does that work?
- [09:19]
Couples Therapy Client 2
It's funny. The fact that he was her godfather is. Everyone talks about it. All the histories mention this fact, as if his trying to reclaim her lands was this grand betrayal. But it really was kind of by happenstance that he became her godfather. So Louis xi, when he was still the Dauphin in France, had a falling out with his father and the king, and so he sought refuge in the court of Philip the Good, who was Charles the Bold's father. And he came and spent a time at the court of Burgundy in the company of Philip the Good and Charles and Charles's then pregnant wife. And Louis happened to be in Burgundy when Mary of Burgundy was born. And because Mary's grandfather, Philip the Good, he was away from the court when she was born and baptized, because she was a girl, he didn't think it was really worth the trip to come back and attend her baptism. Would have been very different if she had been a boy. And because of that fact, the highest ranking person who could carry Mary of Burgundy to the baptismal font was her grandmother, Isabelle of Portugal. And there was no one else of proper rank who was present at the time who could take part in that ceremony alongside Isabella Portugal. And because Louis, the Dauphin of France, happens to still be there, he had the honor to take Mary to the baptismal font alongside Isabel of Portugal. In doing so, he became her godfather, and he, obviously, he remained her godfather her entire life. But it wasn't some deliberate decision. It wasn't like they had looked at a list of people who could do the job and. And then they decided on him for any reasons of affection. It was really that he was in the right place at the right time. But of course, when historians have written about the struggle that came afterwards between Louis XI and Mary of Burgundy, it added this wonderful intrigue. That he was not only trying to seize her birthright, but that he was her godfather as well, made it seem a lot more personal. And I guess it was, but not for the reasons we kind of assume when we hear that title.
- [11:33]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Yes. So he goes on to assert his claim to Burgundy on the basis of Salic Law. Tell me about this Salic Law argument. How strong was it? Did it have universal acceptance at the time?
- [11:47]
Couples Therapy Client 2
Yeah. So Salic law generally was universally accepted by French thinkers, contemporaries, and the idea being that because Burgundy had been part of France, it had been passed down through the Valois dynasty, albeit a different branch of that dynasty. Louis XI took the opportunity to say Salic Law should apply to Mary of Burgundy as well. And that women could not inherit sovereignty of their own accord. A woman was not able to become sovereign after her father. And also sovereignty could not pass through the female line. For instance, if Mary had had a son at that time, because he was her son, he was not entitled to sovereign rights either. Sovereignty could not pass to or through a royal woman. But Salic Law, it was honestly a fraud. It was originally brought up. The first fault King of France sought to usurp power from his niece Jeanne. And he basically had the bishop in charge of The Cathedral of St. Denis went into the archives and found this really old legal document called Salic Law that was talking about female inheritance rights. And so he brought this up. He could say whatever he wanted because it was in Latin.
- [13:10]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And.
- [13:11]
Couples Therapy Client 2
And he said that it meant that women could not inherit the throne of France. Everyone, you know, conveniently ignored the fact that it was actually a document about property rights. It wasn't about inheriting sovereignty in the first place. And in France, the. The ability of women to inherit varied by region as well. In some places, women could inherit property, women could inherit, you know, to different degrees. But ever since Philip used the Salic Law that he had unearthed to seize power, it was just accepted as fact that Salic Law meant women could not rule in France. And it really wasn't challenged after that fact. So even the fact that Mary of Burgundy declined to recognize that, she obviously argued against Louis, claiming that she had no right to inherit by Salic law, not because of all of this complicated history behind the original document, but because for generations now, Burgundy had not been part of France. It had been a sovereign duchy.
- [14:10]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And so what, in the end prompted Louis to change his approach to Burgundy?
- [14:17]
Couples Therapy Client 2
Well, he had originally wanted Mary, young Mary of Burgundy, to marry his son and heir, Charles. And Mary had for a long time been betrothed to the Habsburgs, the heir to the Habsburg dynasty. And but Louis never really accepted that fact. And through the ebbs and flows of warfare between France and Burgundy, this was floated off and on that she could, you know, break the promise to the Habsburgs and marry him instead. And so it was kind of still, he wouldn't take no for an answer, basically, regarding who she would marry. And so then when Charles the Bold died at the Battle of Nancy, he had been trying to reclaim the Duchy of Lorraine. And so the Dukes of Lorraine joined up with the French to fight off his ambitions. And Charles was killed in that battle. And Louis took that opportunity to say, I'm not going to bother with marriage negotiations. I'm not Going to try to convince this teenager to marry my son. At this point, I'll just invade. And so there were different parts of Burgundy that were obviously closer to the French border, that had stronger links to French culture and French tradition. So there were some areas that were very willing to open their gates to Louis forces. You know, their duke had died, his daughter was about 19, and so they very quickly got on board with being reclaimed by France. But then there were other regions that did not. And so he kind of, Louis just took the opportunity, brought his troops to the Burgundian towns that he could, and some of them stood against them, some of them fell in time, some of them opened their gates immediately. And so, yeah, he just decided to go straight into a forceful reclaiming instead of this long winded, confusing attempts to marry his son, to marry instead.
- [16:19]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And how did Mary assert Burgundy as independent of the French crown? And how did she plan to keep control of her lands?
- [16:30]
Couples Therapy Client 2
Burgundy had been independent from France for generations, and so that part of her argument was not really one that was questioned too directly. But she went about creating alliances with the noble leaders who she could. The perhaps, probably the most important was Jean de Chalons, who was the Prince of Orange. And as would become the case for Mary and all of the women who ruled after her, the most important piece of maintaining their power in Burgundy and in the Netherlands was their commitment to respecting the traditional rights and privileges of the different provinces. You know, each of these regions had its own governing structure, they had their own culture. They were all very proud of being largely autonomously run. And so Mary committed to not enforcing any extra oversight over their governance. Her father, Charles the Bold, had done a little bit of that. He had tried to impose greater control and greater oversight of the provinces. So very early on, Mary went to the estates generals, and she promised to revoke some of the more unpopular policies that her father Charles had put upon them. And in doing so, she kind of cobbled together a coalition of supporters. I should also mention, very important to this was her stepmother, Margaret of York, who had been the final wife of Charles the Bold. She became like a mother and sort of like a sister to Mary at Burgundy from a very young age. And Margaret of York was fiercely devoted to protecting Mary and her inheritance. And she really became Mary's most important and certainly her most trusted advisor and ally in drawing together the support that she needed to defend her claim.
- [18:21]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And it was Margaret of York who favoured, as a marital candidate for Mary's hand, Maximilian, tell me about this marriage. One of the Things that seems interesting to me, looking at it, is that you do have these instances at this time when you have a marriage that has been made for perfectly good political reasons that then becomes a love match. This feels like one of those to me, at least. What do you think?
- [18:52]
Couples Therapy Client 2
Absolutely. And it's one of the things that I enjoy so much about studying these women, because not only Mary, but her daughter went on to have several love matches as well. So Mary knew Mary Burgundy knew that she needed to get married as soon as possible to secure her place in Burgundy. And there was a few different people who were floated. The Duke of Cleves wanted her to marry his son, and Louis XI somehow thought that he could both invade her lands and still convince her to marry his son. So that was still on the table as well. But then there was this Habsburg match that had been the earliest proposed marital alliance, even by Mary's father when she was very young. So that was kind of always in the background and quite soon actually came down to between the French match and the Habsburg match. So depending on what province you were in, in Burgundy, if you were one of the provinces that was more inclined to just cut your losses and rejoin France, you wanted her to marry the French king's son. But there were several things working against this. Mary was, by this point, 20 years old, and Louis Xi's son Charles was still an adolescent. He was a little boy. Whereas maximilian Habsburg was 18. And Mary's most trusted advisors, Margaret of York, her stepmother, and Jeanne Helouen, her governess, told her that made the case publicly that it made more sense for her to marry the older candidates so that they could start procreating right away. And so even for those who were more inclined to the French match, they had to, you know, kind of understand that, logistically speaking, it made more sense. Her reign would be more secure more quickly if she went with Maximilian and Margaret of York also. She sent ambassadors to Germany, and when the Germans sent an embassy to Burgundy, she made sure that they knew what Mary liked, what would appeal to her, the phraseologies and the ceremonial things that they could do to win her over to that match as well, so that she was really primed when Maximilian arrived to be favorable to him. And Margaret of York also made sure that Mary's beloved governess, Jeanne Helouyen, was the translator between the two. They didn't share a language when Maximilian first arrived. And so this woman played a really important role in favorably translating early conversations between the two. And they very quickly seem to have developed a very loving. They both Loved the court celebrations. They loved to dance and listen to music. Maximilian, in particular, loved to get out on the dance floor and entertain their courtiers. And so they had this really wonderful, seemingly energetic early courtship in the first months of their marriage that led to a really lasting and loving political partnership as well.
- [21:55]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
I love the idea that the interpreter could have been just hamming it all up slightly. That looks nice, he says. He said it was wonderful. He'd never seen anything as amazing in his. Just to which the translation set the tone. Yeah. So they do quite quickly have children and two very important people in the history of Europe. Who are they?
- [22:25]
Couples Therapy Client 2
So their son came to be known as Philip the Handsome. He was the heir to Burgundy. It's important to note that although Maximilian was Mary's consort, when she died, he was not Duke of Burgundy. That title passed directly to their child, and so that was Philip. And then he was followed soon after by Margaret, and they had another child who died in infancy. So it was kind of. It was common in this period that these sovereign states, their future rested upon just a pairing of a son and a daughter. And so it was really. It was Philip and Margaret who everything fell to when Mary died so tragically young.
- [23:09]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Yes, she did, didn't she? And the circumstances were quite awful. Tell us about them.
- [23:13]
Couples Therapy Client 2
So she. Mary, loved to hunt. She loved her animals. That was something that she also, her daughter, inherited from her as well. And she was out on a hunt one day, and accounts vary as to what happened, but her horse reared and Mary was riding sidesaddle, and her saddle wasn't properly secured. It was too loose, and it twisted somewhat on the back of the horse. And so Mary fell off of the back of her horse. She landed kind of on her hands and knees, you can imagine. But the horse fell backwards on top of her and crushed her. And she lived agonizingly for several days after, and enough time for Margaret of York to rush to her side and for Mary to dictate her will and her plan for the succession. And then she died at 25 years old. And Margaret of Austria was about three at the time, Philip five or six. So it really left things in a horribly tenuous situation. The McDonald's snack wrap is back. You brought it back. Ranch snack wrap.
- [24:36]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Spicy snack wrap.
- [24:38]
Oregon Lottery Representative
You broke the Internet for a snack Snack wrap is back. Sasha hated sand, the way it stuck to things for weeks. So when Maddy shared a surf trip on Expedia Trip Planner, he hesitated. Then he added a hotel with a cliffside pool to the plan, and they both spent the week in the water. You were made to follow your whims. We were made to help find a place on the beach with a pool and a waterfall and a soaking tub and of course, a great shower Expedia Made to travel in the summer. All of Oregon is our playground thanks to our incredible park system. That's why it's so cool that Oregon Lottery gameplay like video lottery or cash Pop helps support tons of parks projects statewide like accessible trails at Silver Falls State park or upgrades to your favorite dog park in Newburgh. It's just one way a little lottery play for many Oregonians can add up to a lot of good the Oregon Lottery Together we do good things. Lottery games are based on chance and should be played for entertainment only. Must be 18 or older to play.
- [25:47]
Regain Couples Therapy Representative
This is an ad by Regain Couples Therapy and features real testimonials.
- [25:53]
Couples Therapy Client 1
This was our first time trying therapy.
- [25:55]
Couples Therapy Client 2
And honestly, it was long overdue. Looking back, we just wish we had.
- [25:59]
Regain Couples Therapy Representative
Started sooner than Regain's qualified therapists help couples when they can't get there on their own.
- [26:05]
Couples Therapy Client 2
We thought it was intimacy issues, but Andrea helped us uncover a deeper root cause we hadn't even realized was there.
- [26:11]
Regain Couples Therapy Representative
Visit regain.com couplespod to get 10% off your first month. Regain powered by betterhelp.
- [26:30]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
I suppose we could say this is the moment at which the Duchy of Burgundy as an independent state ended and the era of the Habsburg Netherlands began. And we're thinking about here about the story of Margaret, because of course plans are made to marry her to the person who had previously been proposed as a spouse to her mother, Charles of France. But she did not end up marrying Charles. What happened? And on the way, can you please tell me why we call her Margaret of Austria?
- [27:11]
Couples Therapy Client 2
Yes, yes. Well, starting with the last piece, Maximilian Habsburg. Her father was Maximilian of Austria. The Habsburgs were of Austria, so Margaret had that title. Technically, Philip had that title as well. They were Archduke and Archduchess of Austria from birth. And Margaret just kept that title throughout her life because she had several marriages but none of them stuck. And so she really, historically speaking, reverted back to that original title. This was the moment when, in my mind as well, that the Netherlands became the Habsburg Netherlands because Maximilian became regent on behalf of young Philip, who was still far too young to be duke in his own right. And, you know, risking a spoiler, Philip would also die quite young. And with a whole bunch of other Habsburg deaths, the future of the Netherlands would fall. It would become one of many acquisitions of Charles V. And so this really was the Beginning of the end of the Netherlands being Burgundian, being its own, its own entity, it became a satellite kingdom, as so many things did under the Habsburgs of the later 16th century. But Margaret of Austria, she was three years old. Her mother had died months before, and the Estates General in Burgundy decided, that's it, they're ready to ally to France. Maximilian had promised to marry, as she had demanded, that he would continue the fight against French aggression. But with her death, they had never been particularly inclined to the Habsburgs taking power. Maximilian was not personally popular in Burgundy, and so Mary had wanted Maximilian to have both the regency, the governance, as well as the personal upbringing of their children. And the estates of Ghent said, well, you'll be the regent, you won't have personal control over the children. They wanted to raise them, they wanted to control Margaret and Philip's upbringing for themselves, and so they actually seized custody of the children. So within months of losing their mother, suddenly Philip and Margaret were essentially became captives of this governing body and removed from the side of their father. And immediately after that, the same estates of Ghent decided to marry Margaret to Louis xi's son, Charles. And Maximilian tried to delay sending her to France. So did Margaret of York, who was still very much involved, very on the ground. She fought for years to gain custody of Philip, which she eventually did. So she was Maximilian's right hand in this period. And, you know, they said Margaret was three years old, there was no need to rush sending her to France. But Louis XI was by now reaching the end of his reign, and he somewhat arbitrarily, in my mind, insisted that he needed to be able to dance at his son and heir's wedding. And he knew he didn't have much time left. And so Margaret was three and she was shipped away alone across the Netherlands in midwinter to her new life in France. And actually, a lot of scholars represent this as remaining just a betrothal, an engagement. But a wedding ceremony did occur immediately after Margaret arrived in France. Obviously, the marriage was never consummated, but a marriage ceremony occurred at the Chateau of Amboise very soon after her arrival. And she was called in France the Little Queen of France. After Louis XI died, as much as he had insisted on rushing the wedding, he couldn't even make it from his chateau to the wedding itself. So he died never having met Margaret and not attending the wedding. So suddenly, Margaret was Queen of France, and she was called that, and she had a household to match, and she took her place in ceremonial as much as a toddler. Could as the little queen. So although the wedding was never consummated, technically speaking, this was her first marriage.
- [31:33]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Yes. It's an interesting one, isn't it? Because under canon law at the time, you did need to consent, I think. So it is absolutely a marriage ceremony. But she would need to have gone through the ceremony again once she reached the age of consent, 14 or 12 for girls. And then consummation was also necessary to make it a full marriage. So it is and isn't a marriage.
- [32:00]
Couples Therapy Client 2
In a strange way, yes, it was everything but a full marriage, I guess you could say. And legally speaking, you know, Margaret was. Before she reached to the age of consent, she was back in the Netherlands. And so that piece of it never occurred. But in terms of, you know, the, the documents that I'm looking at, the way that people spoke about her while she was there, it was kind of this cute little, you know, she's our. She's our little queen. Our beloved little queen. So it was obviously very symbolic title.
- [32:32]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And so what happened to send her.
- [32:35]
Couples Therapy Client 2
Back to the Netherlands, the Duke of Brittany died. Brittany was a sovereign duchy in the other corner of France, the northwestern corner of France. And it had also been the French had pined after Brittany to take it under their control for a very long time as well. And similar to when Charles the Bold died, leaving Mary a Burgundy in power, when the Duke Francis of Brittany died, he only had one daughter, Anne, who was heiress and now sovereign Duchess of Brittany. And taking a line right out of his father's playbook, young King Charles and his sister Anne of France decided to try to take Brittany by force to finally subsume it into the French kingdom. But Charles was already technically married. Anne of Brittany, soon after her father's death, created a marriage contract with Maximilian I, of all people, Margaret of Austria's father. And a similar idea that Maria Burgundy had, had to marry a Habsburg to defend against French aggression. And again, accounts vary as to what changed. Some say that Charles arrived in full force with his armies at the border of Brittany, demanded to be let in, and then Anne, to save her people from the onslaught, agreed to disavow her marriage agreement with Maximilian and instead marry Charles. Other, more pro French sources say that Charles arrived in Brittany kind of clandestinely and undercover and wooed Anne of Brittany to his side, and that she then married him willingly. Given the fact that she held a grudge against the French, claiming Britney for the rest of her life, I don't think that the latter was really the case. But Anna, Brittany ended up marrying Charles to save her people from a French invasion. And Charles disavowed his marriage to Margaret of Austria. Obviously, their quote, unquote marriage had never been consummated. And so he was able to set her aside in order to marry Anne of Brittany, feeling that acquiring Britney was more valuable than an alliance with the Habsburgs, which over time had proven to be nothing but temporary.
- [34:56]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
So what happens to Margaret? Who does she go on to marry?
- [34:59]
Couples Therapy Client 2
Margaret married a couple more times, but each of the next times now in France and then in a few years in Spain. When her marriage ended, the people around her took years fighting over her dowry. Who got to keep what, you know, what she was entitled to to take back with her to the Netherlands, what lands she had brought in the marriage would stay part of France, what would revert to the Netherlands. And so she was kept somewhat captive in France for several years after the annulment of her marriage. She was shuttled between different chateaus so that no one from the Netherlands could find her and forcibly bring her back. And it was really Margaret of York, her stepmother after all this time, who finally convinced Margaret's father, Maximilian, make your compromises, find a negotiation. We need to bring to bring Margaret home. And it was Margaret of York who traveled to finally bring Margaret of Austria back to the Netherlands two or three years after her marriage had been annulled. So then Margaret of Austria got to spend a few seemingly idyllic years in the company of her godmother, step grandmother, namesake Margaret of York. She had a wonderful tearful reunion with her brother Philip. You know, none of them had seen each other in almost a decade, but Margaret was still a teenager. It was very clear to her that she would be making another marriage. And so before too long, a double marriage contract was signed between Maximilian and and Isabelle and Ferdinand of Castile and Aragon. And so Margaret of Austria married Don Juan, the Prince of Asturias, and Philip married his sister, Joanna. Joanna. And so the two siblings married. The two siblings and Joanna came to the Netherlands to become duchess alongside Philip. And Margaret traveled to Spain to become the future Queen of Spain.
- [37:05]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And there's one quick little anecdote on the way which shows something of Margaret's character, her sang froid in the midst of a crisis. Tell me that briefly.
- [37:15]
Couples Therapy Client 2
Yes. So Margaret on her way to her second marriage, she was traveling by sea, and horrible weather in the English Channel meant that her flotilla was waylaid and they actually had to take refuge in England for several months. And so Margaret was able to spend some time as a guest of honor at the court of Henry VII on her way to Spain. And when she finally continued her journey, her ladies in waiting, the people who were attending her, all said that she was essentially the only person on board who didn't show her fear, who was courageous and eager to arrive in her new country. And so you could see that, you know, this young woman, she wasn't yet 20 years old. She had been shuffled back and forth in all these horrible circumstances, and clearly she had some grit to show for it. By the time she arrived in Spain, she certainly did.
- [38:11]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Her marriage to Juan ended suddenly and sadly. I always remember this because I'm thinking about the fact that this is a woman many people in this country associate with Anne Boleyn. But of course, she knew Catherine, who we know as Katherine Verrigan, very well as well. Yes. But quite quickly, Margaret has got a new strategic marriage, a new husband chosen because of the usefulness of his duchy. Is this a sort of extreme example for the time of women being married off to those who suit certain political ends? What do you think?
- [38:49]
Couples Therapy Client 2
Absolutely, yeah. If you were a woman born into a ruling family of any kind, a kingdom, a duchy, a principality, you knew from birth that your destiny would be to make a strategic marriage alliance. Your role was to both absorb the culture and the traditions of your new country, but also to remain loyal to your natal family, to encourage working relations and alliances between your father's realm and your husband's realm. And this led to a lot of issues for a lot of women. You know, they were always seen as something of an outsider in the country that they married into, particularly if they were good at their job, which meant encouraging alliances with the family that they came from. So this was very much par for the course, not as much the fact that Margaret had to do it on three separate occasions.
- [39:54]
Oregon Lottery Representative
In the summer. All of Oregon is our playground thanks to our incredible park system. That's why it's so cool that Oregon lottery gameplay, like video lottery or cash pop, helps support tons of parks projects statewide, like accessible trails at Silver Falls State park or upgrades to your favorite dog park and Newburgh. It's just one way a little lottery play from many Oregonians can add up to a lot of good the Oregon Lottery. Together, we do good things. Lottery games are based on chance and should be played for entertainment only. Must be 18 or older to play.
- [40:25]
Regain Couples Therapy Representative
This is an ad by Regain couples therapy and features real testimonials.
- [40:30]
Couples Therapy Client 1
This was our first time trying therapy.
- [40:32]
Couples Therapy Client 2
And honestly, it was long overdue.
- [40:35]
Couples Therapy Client 1
Looking back, we just wish we had started sooner.
- [40:38]
Regain Couples Therapy Representative
Regain's qualified Therapists help couples when they can't get there on their own.
- [40:42]
Couples Therapy Client 2
We thought it was intimacy issues, but Andrea helped us uncover a deeper root cause we hadn't even realized was there.
- [40:49]
Regain Couples Therapy Representative
Visit regain.com couplespod to get 10% off your first month. Regain powered by betterhelp.
- [41:09]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And do we see from Margaret's life the way in which female rulers who are consorts, queens and duchesses, could wield power indirectly in this period?
- [41:21]
Couples Therapy Client 2
Indirectly and directly, I would say not as much in the case of Spain, not quite as much, because after seven months of marriage, do Juan, he died. He had always been a bit sickly, never been particularly healthy, and so he died when she was pregnant, less than a year into their marriage. And when she gave birth a couple months after his death, the baby was stillborn as well. And so she never had the chance to wield power at all in Spain. But she did spend several years after being widowed, in the company of her mother in law, Isabel I, who was formidable ruler in her own right. Margaret had this history of being able to spend time in the presence in the courts of several of the most powerful women of her era. And when she was in France, this was Anne of Beaujeu, Charles's elder sister, who was his governor on Charles's behalf, in his minority, and then also maintained a high level of power throughout her life. Margaret was essentially raised by Anne of Beaujeu, and I think of them kind of as political internships. You know, when you spend all of your time around a woman who is both in charge of your upbringing and your education, but you're also with them when they're ruling, when they are dealing with men in power, when they are dictating missives, you know, so she really was in the room to witness Anne of France, Anne of Beaujeu's governance. And then she was also very close to Isabel I both during and after her marriage, when Margaret followed the court during her mourning for several years after her husband in Spain died. And so she had the opportunity to just observe these women ruling in these different capacities. Anne of Bojo as governor, Isabella as sovereign. But it was really in Margaret's third marriage, second consummated marriage, that she was finally able to wield power in her own right. It was very clear early on that she had taken the lessons she had learned in her earlier years to heart once she reached Savoy.
- [43:33]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
So let's talk about how Margaret wielded power directly, both in Savoy, but also as governor of the Low Countries. And I'm particularly interested in the way that she seems to have intervened in the wider politics of Europe.
- [43:48]
Couples Therapy Client 2
Yes. So from the moment Margaret arrived in Savoy, this was truly the beginning of her. Her career of wielding political power once again. She fell madly in love with Philibert of Savoy, who was her third and final husband. He was also the brother of Louise of Savoy, who went on to be Regent of France. Margaret had grown up with Louise during her time in France, and so this was a very welcome final marriage match for her. She had known Philibert her entire life, so it. It went very smoothly from the beginning. But Philibert wasn't particularly interested in ruling in the governing piece of his position. And so until Margaret arrived, he had really left a lot of the particulars to his half brother, Rene of Savoy. And Margaret very quickly caught on that this was the case. And not only that, but Rene was particularly inclined towards the French policy, Savoy's alliance with the French king. And so there had been swirling rumors that there was perhaps a little bit of Rene's behavior towards France could be seen as treasonous in terms of the way that he governed the deals he was making. And Margaret was successful in having those claims amplified, convincing Philibert of their veracity. And Rene was removed from power in Savoy and actually exiled and went and lived out the rest of his life at the Court of France. And from then on, Margaret really was central to the political oversight of the Duchy of Savoy for the three years that she was married to Philibert before his death, and then after he died and she eventually went back to the Netherlands, she was really primed to take up a governing position from the start. Soon after Philibert died, leaving her widowed for the second time. Her own brother Philip died young as well, and his son and heir Charles was about 6 years old, so he was in need of a regent to rule in his stead in the Netherlands. And so Margaret of Austria, there had been some finagling to actually have her married for a fourth time to Henry vii, but she made it very clear she was not interested and made her case that she was more needed in the Netherlands beside her young nephew to help shepherd him forward. She spent the rest of her life in Charles V's service, first in working alongside her father, Maximilian, who was still overseeing things to some degree from the Empire, from the Holy Roman Empire. But then after Maximilian died and Charles was no longer a minor but was king in Spain, he became Holy Roman Emperor and Margaret was his constant representative in the Spanish Netherlands for the rest of her life.
- [46:50]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
One of the things you need to know about Margaret is that she was an extraordinary patron of the arts. I mean, her collection was pretty much unrivaled. Tell us about it.
- [47:03]
Couples Therapy Client 2
Yes. So Margaret was an avid art collector and art patron. She made musicians, artists from all over Europe, welcome at her court. She really did a lot to kind of revive the prestige of the old court of Burgundy, which had been such a leader in its time. And she, in each of her dowries, in each of the settlements after her marriages ended, she very fiercely defended her right to maintain the material acquisitions that she had gained. So art works of art, tapestry, material goods like that, but also her book collection. She was very, very protective of her impressive collection of books and manuscripts and made sure when each of her marriages ended, that she had the right to bring with her everything she had acquired. But one of the most famous works of art that was part of her personal collection was the Opini portrait. And she kept some of her works of art, the ones that she enjoyed more personally, for her taste in art, in her private rooms in her. The palace at Mechlin that she developed during her rule in the Netherlands. But then she also had a keen eye for the types of artworks that were more diplomatically and politically. So, for instance, when there was a portrait made of a particular victorious battle that Charles V had won, she would place the visual representations of that in the more public spaces of her court. So she was really. She obviously was very passionate about the arts personally, for her own interest, but she was also very aware of when art was also a useful political tool for representing the authority and power of the region that she represented.
- [48:51]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
And we continue to see this tradition of powerful women influencing other powerful women. I mean, Margaret creates a court where the potential princes and princesses of Europe are educated and grow up. I mentioned already that Anne Boleyn, not at that point a potential queen, but she becomes one, is amongst them or serving them. This is an extraordinary kind of hot house place for the young and brilliant elite of Europe, isn't it?
- [49:29]
Couples Therapy Client 2
Yes, it is. And Margaret of Austria, she both benefited from what you could really consider a female political school, first under Anne of Beaujeu in France, who was also raising Louise of Savoy. And Anne of Brittany was there for a time, but then also, once Margaret was an adult, she had custody and oversaw the upbringing of her niece, Charles's sister, Mary, for a time. Also Charles and Mary's other siblings, Isabel and Eleanor. Isabel went on to marry the King of Denmark. And after Isabel died, Margaret of Austria also gained custody of Isabel's children and them in the Netherlands. So she not only was raising these children according to their status as royals, but deliberately in, with the knowledge of the roles they would go on to play. Raising the heir to Denmark with the political training that he would need to face his future there. And Mary of Hungary as well. Margaret had Mary living with her at her court throughout her adolescence. And then when Mary was actually sent to live for about 10 years with Maximilian in preparation for her marriage to Hungary. And so Margaret and Maximilian worked together to prepare Mary for her future. But throughout the rest of Margaret's life, different royal children would arrive to come up in her court because she truly became internationally renowned as one of the most capable women in Europe for raising royal children, for raising the people who would go on to rule the continent, across the continent in the generations that followed.
- [51:16]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Margaret plays an important role in making peace across Europe in the final year of her life and dies in 1530, before perhaps she sees the full extent of the way that Europe is riven by the Reformation. Give us a sense of how important a character you think she was in early 16th century history.
- [51:41]
Couples Therapy Client 2
She was both a political force in her own right, but she was also representative of how connected all of the ruling, all of the rulers of Europe really were. I mean, between her time in France, her detour in England, Spain and Savoy, she really, I kind of come to think of her as the, the Forrest Gump of her era. She had an opportunity to meet everyone. She had the opportunity to get to know these different courts and cultures. And to me, most interestingly, she had an opportunity to learn from each of the most powerful women of her lifetime. In the year before her death, this kind of culminated in the ladies Peace of 1529, when the regent in France by that time was her old childhood friend and sister in law, Louise of Savoy. And they came together to end the captivity of King Francis, the first of France's two sons in Spain by Charles V. Margaret of Austria had had a hand in having Francis I released from captivity in exchange for his sons a few years earlier. And in 1529, she arranged a secret, in person, multi week meeting with Louise of Savoy, where Louise came to meet her and they, and they hashed out the details and both convinced the men they represented to agree to the terms. And so the Ladies piece was really the final crowning achievement that Margaret was able to see, to make happen firsthand. And it really represents kind of the key elements of her life of working with women, of learning from women, of learning how to navigate between moments of conflict and moments of negotiation between these different rulers whose alliances were always shifting and intertwining. To me, Margaret was. She was certainly one of the most powerful rulers of her era, not only in the way that she handled diplomacy on behalf of Charles V, keeping his home country stable and economically thriving in his absence, but she also saw to the education of the people who would follow her, the children who would grow up to kind of take her place in the years that followed.
- [54:06]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
We're not at the end of this extraordinary dynasty of women. After Mary of Burgundy and Margaret of Austria, we have Mary of Hungary and Margaret of Palmer and then Isabella, Clara, Eugenia. Perhaps you'll come back and talk to me about them another time if I can prevail on you. But what have we learned so far about the power of women at this time that isn't perhaps part of the headline story of POW in this era?
- [54:36]
Couples Therapy Client 2
I think that the reality of women learning from women is underappreciated in this era. You know, there's this trope of the exceptional woman in history, particularly in early modern history, that if there's any woman who we know about, it was because she was this unique case. Things kind of just fell together in a certain way that allowed her to become this woman against the world, this one woman acting in isolation, surrounded by the male leaders of Europe. And in the 16th century, this just wasn't the case. There were women ruling all over the place with different titles and different levels of autonomy, but they were working together in distinct ways that acknowledged the fact of the reality of being women in power and the certain. The specific circumstances that created and the specific approaches that required in their politics. And so I don't think we talk enough about the fact that ruling women leaned on each other, learned from each other, corresponded with each other, and achieved diplomatic successes that were truly made possible by the fact that they were women working with women.
- [55:53]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Dr. Donnell, thank you so much for bringing these two women and these networks works to our attention.
- [55:59]
Couples Therapy Client 2
Thank you so much.
- [56:01]
Professor Susannah Lipscomb
Thank you very much indeed for your time today. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you for listening to this episode of Not Just the Tudors from History hit. Thank you also to my researcher, Max Wintool, my producer Rob Weinberg, and to Amy Haddow, who edited this episode. We are always eager to hear from you, including receiving your brilliant ideas for subjects we can cover sooner than do drop us a line@notjusthetorshistoryhit.com and I look forward to joining you again for another episode. Next time on Not Just the Tudors from history hit.
- [56:42]
Oregon Lottery Representative
In the summer, all of Oregon is our playground, thanks to our incredible park system. That's why it's so cool that Oregon Lottery goes Gameplay like video lottery or cash pop helps support tons of parks projects statewide, like accessible trails at Silver Falls State park or upgrades to your favorite dog park in Newburgh. It's just one way a little lottery play for many Oregonians can add up to a lot of good the Oregon Lottery Together, we do good things. Lottery games are based on chance and should be played for entertainment only. Must be 18 or older to play.
- [57:13]
Regain Couples Therapy Representative
This is an ad by Regain Couples Therapy. Lets be honest, loving your partner doesn't mean you always like them. And guess what? That's normal. Regain, powered by BetterHelp, offers couples therapy that's flexible, affordable, and 100% online. Whether you're reconnecting or working through conflict, Regain is here to support you both. See why people wish they'd tried couples therapy sooner? Visit regain.com couplespod to get 10% off your first month. That's regain.com couplespod.